Madden NFL 13 News Post

EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

09:48 PM - June 13, 2012 by LBzrule

We have talked about this already but I want to look at this not from the perspective of All Pro Football or any of the 2k games. I want to look at this within the framework of Madden/NCAA and I have already forwarded this and hope there is something that can be done. They can actually make the DE's rush better in Madden 13 by paying attention to the scripts and animations in their own animation engine. I saw this in the NCAA 13 demo (thus I know they have access to the animation script) but did not see it in any of the Madden videos from E3. It did not happen too much in the NCAA 13 video. When I saw it the lights came on. It's not the solution, but it is perhaps the best realistic quick fix they can make for Madden 13 to get the DE's to rush the passer more adequately.

It's not the end all be all but I think we need this script as a quick fix.

While it can look better, we gotta work with what EA is giving us. This script is in the game and looks decent so why not replicate it and have guys do it more instead of the bounce and keep bouncing animation. At least with this one there is an engagement and the DE actually dips his shoulder and there actually looks to be a struggle between the tackle and the DE. I think blitzing 3-4 OLB's deserve the same rush script.

Let me be clear on what I'm advocating. I think this script needs to play out more consistently through passing downs if you set your defense up to rush this way. Second, the guys coming off the edge need to get there a little faster than the LSU DE's in the video.

Separating players based on ratings would be the tricky part. I think this could help with making the elite pass rushers actually seem like they are on the field.
Another thing to think about since EA's system is based on wins and losses is what would a win for an offensive tackle look like in this scenario?

What do you guys think?

Game: Madden NFL 13Reader Score: 6/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 41 brza37 @ 06/15/12 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM


	You should post this on the site. www.easports.com/gamechangers Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

LBz have you posted this on gamechangers yet? There are 300+ ideas already posted there for Madden and anything thats not on the first couple pages just seems to get lost in the shuffle. A post there and a link here should help at least OSers to vote for this and get it on a fast track to the top of the list.

# 42 LBzrule @ 06/15/12 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brza37


	LBz have you posted this on gamechangers yet? There are 300+ ideas already posted there for Madden and anything thats not on the first couple pages just seems to get lost in the shuffle. A post there and a link here should help at least OSers to vote for this and get it on a fast track to the top of the list.

Reddoggmadd posted it http://www.easports.com/gamechangers...=4fd95422d64f2

# 43 hay99077 @ 06/15/12 11:14 AM

Search "Quick Fix for Defensive pass rush for M13 if not too Late" and it will be the top result

# 44 speedy9386 @ 06/15/12 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I know you guys are not going to want to suffer through a lot of this video. Luckily you'll only need to skip to the 00:42 mark. What do you guys think of that? My only problem with it on the right side is the initial bounce animation. Left side looks pretty good. I don't like the slow set up though. But the pocket looks ok on this one. This is really what I was after here. If EA can get this pass rush script to play out more often I think it will do good for Madden 13.

Wow that's actually very nice would love to see more of that in Madden.

# 45 speedy9386 @ 06/15/12 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy9386


	Beautiful football right here man. http://

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I know you guys are not going to want to suffer through a lot of this video. Luckily you'll only need to skip to the 00:42 mark. What do you guys think of that? My only problem with it on the right side is the initial bounce animation. Left side looks pretty good. I don't like the slow set up though. But the pocket looks ok on this one. This is really what I was after here. If EA can get this pass rush script to play out more often I think it will do good for Madden 13.

Somebody should post these two videos on gamechangers to show the devs what we would like to see.

# 46 speedy9386 @ 06/15/12 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	Theyve already seen it 1000 times and quite frankly, they shouldn't need to see the comparison video. These guys have access to the NFL and are supposed to be the best at developing a football game. We should not have to show them the basics of what would be a realistic football game. Showing them all of the realistic footage from older games is not going to do anything. They have to WANT to take the game in this direction. It will never happen since they want to keep the game arcade so that your madden nation players can make a mockery of our favorite sport on national television. One thing that I found pretty funny - you notice how all of the requests on the gamechangers site for Madden are things we have already had in older football games? But wait, I thought those things would make the game not as "FUN"??? So ridiculous...

Maybe they're waiting for the very last madden on this generation to give us a true next gen experience. lol

# 47 speedy9386 @ 06/15/12 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	What you need to realize is that they think they HAVE given us that. In any event, I voted on this feature along with some others. I have zero confidence it will get addressed properly, but maybe we'll see some sort of miracle happen.

The thing I don't get is that we have seen it in the game so we know it's possible, why can't they just do something with the program to ensure that it always happens? Is it that they don't know what real football looks like or is it that they just don't have the ability to make sure it happens consistently?

# 48 RGiles36 @ 06/15/12 12:29 PM

Great thread LBz. I'm buying what you're selling.

Good work by Steve as well for highlighting this thread; hopefully that gets the attention of EA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerzeyReign


	Maybe its just me but I like it but I don't -- the pocket never truly forms. The QB is on the outskirts of it. *They need to 'spread' the interactions out a bit so the QB is actually in the pocket* -- mixt that in with DEs rushing up the field (which should only be on pass commit type plays) and that would be golden.

Spread the interactions to what degree? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't want the interactions spread anymore than they already are. The "pocket" already forms too wide. Even when the ends/OLBs disengage, they're too far from the passer to have any impact on the play.

To that end, I don't get too caught up in the appearance of a pocket. If the ends rush up field on passing plays (or when you instruct them to), the pocket will take care of itself. Then it's a matter of adding mobility upfront so that DE/DTs can effectively collapse the pocket w/out always tossing the G/C to the side.

# 49 LBzrule @ 06/16/12 04:18 PM

I wish EA would come out and confirm whether or not on higher levels of the game this plays out more frequently. I watched Ravens vs Redskins 3 and I saw it again at 00:53

So obviously it is there we just need to know how often it plays out and if if can be sped up. If they can speed up QB drops, Play Action animations then surely they can speed up the DE's coming out of their stance and engaging with Offensive Tackles.

# 50 DocHolliday @ 06/16/12 05:13 PM

How frustrating is it that something that we have literally complained about for about a decade does not get fixed?

This would also be an instant boost to maddens "sim" factor on this site.

It also doesn't seem like it is that hard to implement since APF did it, not amazingly but light years better than maddens O line play.

I just don't get why they continue to ignore something people have been complaining about for so long.

# 51 JerzeyReign @ 06/16/12 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgiles36


	Great thread LBz. I'm buying what you're selling. Good work by Steve as well for highlighting this thread; hopefully that gets the attention of EA. Spread the interactions to what degree? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't want the interactions spread anymore than they already are. The "pocket" already forms too wide. Even when the ends/OLBs disengage, they're too far from the passer to have any impact on the play. To that end, I don't get too caught up in the appearance of a pocket. If the ends rush up field on passing plays (or when you instruct them to), the pocket will take care of itself. Then it's a matter of adding mobility upfront so that DE/DTs can effectively collapse the pocket w/out always tossing the G/C to the side.

The pocket only forms wide when you spread your line out. If you do a regular pass rush it looks jammed -- maybe a DE gets pushed to the ground to make it look like they were coming off the edge. If the pocket starts to look like its forming right -- my opinion only -- but that must mean that offensive and defensive linemen are using proper blocking/rushing techniques. Only way to make it look right is to do it right, right?

Look at the AP2k8 video -- thats the 'spreading' out I'm referring to. In fact, in his video LB spreads the line to get a realistic looking rush. Thats offensive and defensive lines performing, or giving the idea, that they are executing proper fundamentals. The play in that video gives me the feeling that the ends are getting 'as deep as the QB' or that the linemen are riding their man out of the play ALLOWING the QB time to step up. If you compare that to a non adjusted Madden/NCAA pass rush then you'll see patty cake animations with the ends getting stood up. If the tackles would have pushed rode their assignments further outside, therefore spreading the interactions, a beautiful pocket would have formed -- one I'd be willing to step up in at least.

Hope that was clear -- its late in Germany and I just started drinking.

# 52 Goffs @ 06/17/12 09:11 AM

Quality post! If the animation is already there then it should be an easy fix!

# 53 SteelerSpartan @ 06/17/12 06:12 PM

Any updates on whether this has gotten any looks from the devs?????

# 54 ch46647 @ 06/17/12 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelerSpartan


	Any updates on whether this has gotten any looks from the devs?????

THis would be a great thread for a developer to pop in and let us know if it is possible. I know the developers dont post much anymore, but I would like to hear a litte input from them occasionally.

# 55 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	There is no chance the developers will give this a look. To them, they see nothing wrong with what they've got.

I gave them a link to the thread along with that Ravens vs Redskins video.

# 56 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 09:28 AM

Part of me wonders though is this a specific type of pass rusher that is causing this animation script with the offensive tackles. Kruger and Upshaw have pretty high power move ratings. Suggs does too, although he's not in these videos. I wonder if those LSU DE's are more power move guys? I'm not sure though because I get it with the USC DE's on occasion along with the Oregon guys as well. I need to play as KState and see. What I can say is the OLB's just based on playing with Bama, their rush angles out of 3-4 Odd result in a lot of bouncing with the offensive tackle. I

# 57 briz1744 @ 06/18/12 11:34 AM

can't link this but people in this thread might be interested in an article that is linked to a tweet sent to both Donny and Looman on the effect on pass rush of the BSH rating
Sorry I can't link but check out their twitter timelines by using twitter search, looks like one way to improve edge rush would be re-rate DLs globally

# 58 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briz1744


	can't link this but people in this thread might be interested in an article that is linked to a tweet sent to both Donny and Looman on the effect on pass rush of the BSH rating Sorry I can't link but check out their twitter timelines by using twitter search, looks like one way to improve edge rush would be re-rate DLs globally

Ehhh this is why a discussion with them is necessary. It sounds to me they understand improved edge rush as quick block shed and get to the QB. I don't think that's what the community wants because then the Offensive Tackles mean nothing. Just based on the videos I think what we want is:

1) DE's exploding out of their stance faster
2) which results in them getting up the field faster
3) Engagement and fighting towards the QB like in the Ravens vs Redskins or LSU vs Bama; Dip the shoulder and drive those damn feet. OT's can win by steering them past the QB and the QB stepping up. No bouncing, just smooth engage and fighting towards the QB, with good tackles keeping the defender at bay and steering him past and bad tackles getting pushed back into the QB and the block eventually shed.
4) The animation is too slow. That's one of the biggest issues IMO. Of course all we have seen it on is Pro so it might play faster on higher settings.

Making global rating changes tend to never be good.

I guess the first thing that needs to be figured out is what is causing the animation I discussed with the DE's and OT's to trigger? Is it Power Move; Block Shed; a combination of both?

# 59 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	try finding a pass rusher that fits the mold of a JPP or Osi Umenyiora. Speedy, with low power moves and 90+ finesse moves. Last year in our league we had guys drafting DL with super high power moves, because those guys were much more effective. JPP had 99 agility, acceleration and finess moves for me and was completely useless 90% of the time. That's just plain awful. It negates the personnel you have on the field and basically makes the teams generic in how they play. JPP is a special athlete who is damn near unblockable for most tackles. That should be reflected in the game. Not with sacks on ever play, but with the proper engagement with the tackle. Umenyiora is an edge speed rusher and will use an outside move very often. Many times if he is neutralized, he'll get blocked up field way past the QB. Do DEs even get pushed upfield past the QB (forming the pocket) in this game? I've rarely seen it if it does happen. Would be nice if it was fixed somewhat for this game and definitely made awesome next year.

The highlighted is very important. IT does not happen. I think they can address that. Everything that we are talking about right now is already in the game. It's just a matter of what is causing it in some situations and not others. Again, the Ravens vs Redskins was the only time I saw it in any of the Madden E3 videos and I'm wondering if it was because of Kruger and Upshaw high power move ratings or block shed. Not sure. I'll go back and look through but I don't recall it happening in any of the Giants, Colts, Redskins, Vikings. I'm going to go back and look through all E3 videos just to look for that. Esshhhh, why? For me, if it is just ratings then it'll make getting the game worth it. If we can pinpoint who is doing it and who is not then it might just be ratings related. If that's the case the fix would definitely be easy.

# 60 LBzrule @ 06/18/12 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	That would be good. I still think there is much work to be done to get their line play to look and behave realistically in this space, but that would certainly be a massive improvement. I was playing APF yesterday and I was paying specific attention to this area. I've got JPP as a gold and Tuck as a silver, both being pass rushing studs in the game. When computer http://www.operationsports.com/LBzrule/card/controlled, they would dip their shoulders and rush upfield, while engaged with the tackle, they would try various moves to get free. Many times simply being pushed BEHIND the QB, just like in real life. On an inside move I saw JPP do a rip move then a sping in attempting to get there and he was literally pushed out of the play completely while Romo stepped up in the pocket and delivered a pass. This is what I want to see in this game. Make my elite defensive lineman matter in this game and force the QB to step up in the pocket. Allow my elite pass rushers to matter, and allow me to play with the Giants like they are in real life. Relying on that front 4 to get pressure instead of blitzing every single play.

Ohhh indeed. Make no mistake about it they have a great deal of work to do to address OL vs DL. But like we have discussed, I'm just trying to come up with something with the front four rush this year to make the game "worth it"; to get people to play defense differently and not always have to rely on blitzing, tricking the OL, or always getting a free runner because the tackles decide to block the second level player. I like their modification to slide protection. They can add options to that later, but at least they did something with it. That right there is going to help my offense alot.

One of the first things I do every football game I get is start with the basics. I go through to see what I'm going to need to do. When I get the game this year, the first thing I'm going to look at is the basic pass rush and how the DE's rush the passer. If I have to hot blitz them ect., Then the first thing I would like to do on offense is work on protection. The last upmteen Madden's I have not worked on protection because I did not like the logic of slide protection. With the way it is now, I will work on that. I always start up front and if the game just gives me a little bit I can take it from there until they give me a lot. But if they don't give me a little bit, I'm not going to feel like playing, which is why I ditched Madden 12 back in February, but was already fed up with the game in Nov/December. We'll see. I wonder when they will release some new videos.

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