FOF 6.3 Released (Use this thread to discuss the patch, changes, impressions, etc.)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Solecismic Software

The following changes are included in the 6.3 update, along with everything changed through 6.2:

• Added new 2009 player file.
• Adjust contract demands to reflect the new salary cap numbers. Note that because of this change, those of you in multi-player leagues should try and upgrade at the same time your commissioner upgrades (though if your commissioner is aware of how the changes will manifest, he can instruct you on how you should alter contract offers.
• Tweaks to the contract valuation algorithm (can't really explain tweaks without detailing the algorithms, which would give too much away).
• Several rather large changes in the play-resolution engine, particularly to the passing game. Again, I'm not going to provide details, but this will have a significant impact on game-planning. I'm aware there will be complaints at first, because there will be a learning curve and it might appear that game-planning has less impact than in the past. But I think once you're used to these changes, it will make for a more enjoyable experience as you'll have to better tailor your plan to your talent. This is probably the biggest change in the engine in five years.
• Add normal substitution for nickel and dime packages on defense.
• Tweak use of individual blitzers in terms of interpretation of blitz percentage settings.
• Another attempt to improve the field-goal and play-calling logic at the end of the first half, particularly when your team has the lead.
• Tweak substitution algorithm for starting quarterbacks.
• Fix a bug with how summer-league experience is applied to each position.
• An attempt to prevent Solevision from crashing after use of the save-as function, though this problem could not be duplicated.
• Apply the tripping penalty as an in-play foul rather than as a personal foul.
• Fix a bug with stadium condition being set to an invalid value - this will not correct in existing games until the beginning of a new season.
• Created a new home state selection algorithm for new players. This algorithm reflects the current state of the NFL rather than just the population of the United States. Expect more quarterbacks from California and more wide receivers from Florida.
• Try and make Front Office Football a native Vista application (the help file is still outdated). The electronic license portion, however, remains an XP application and still requires administrative privileges on first run.
• Tweak (very small) the free agency AI player acquisition logic. This still needs a redesign in places, far too much for just an update.
• Add an ordering of the importance of games during the regular season. The top game is shown on channel 2, on down to channel 17.
• Tweak (very small) the player generator. This includes improving linebackers, safeties and fullbacks.
• Tweak the TCY converter. Primarily giving tight ends a big-play rating and reducing punt and kick return abilities.
• Don't allow the AI to call a goal-line defense where it's horribly inappropriate.
• Provide more instructive error messages when loading incomplete or corrupted saved games.

Solecismic Software: Home of Front Office Football

[Ben E Lou]

Uh, wow.

[Lintyfresh85]

Any idea what the passing/game planning changes mean?

[Front Office Midget]

I sort of wish this would have been released earlier in the day, so I could have come home to read lots of discussion. I'm interested in seeing how this all unfolds...

[Solecismic]

I'm glad I could update the game again this year. I would have liked to create a full new version, but was unable to put the full plan into place.

The engine changes will, I'm sure, be very different for you at first. I did a huge amount of studying of play results in the NFL over the past two years and concluded I needed to rebalance how the engine resolves passing plays. The NFL official game logs have a lot more data than in the past.

I'm finding extreme game plans generate fewer wild numbers. Without even trying to limit extreme game plans. That's encouraging. Though I know our veteran game planners will soon adjust in ways I can't even imagine.

I won't detail the changes. It would require explaining too much about how the game uses ratings. And there are too many changes to explain in full. I rewrote about 500 lines of code here. Usually that's more than I would like to do for an update, but I thought it was necessary.

Again, I'm glad I can keep the game fresh and hope I can remain in this business for at least another decade.

[TheMeat]

You're tellin me! Much more than anticipated and sounds fun. This game engine change has rekindled my desire to break out the testing macros!!!!!

Thank you Jim, you haven't forgotten us... sniff...

And the Nickle/Dime substitutions... Glorious, even though I'd been thoroughly abusing that I'm glad I have to worry about depth again.

Awesome, just awesome.

[Ben E Lou]

Man...some good-looking stuff here. Ones that intrigue me at first glance...

• Tweaks to the contract valuation algorithm (can't really explain tweaks without detailing the algorithms, which would give too much away). hmmmm...nerfing of the one-year deal? I realize Jim shouldn't give too much detail, but maybe a comment about what used to work that won't work as well?

• Several rather large changes in the play-resolution engine, particularly to the passing game. Again, I'm not going to provide details, but this will have a significant impact on game-planning. I'm aware there will be complaints at first, because there will be a learning curve and it might appear that game-planning has less impact than in the past. But I think once you're used to these changes, it will make for a more enjoyable experience as you'll have to better tailor your plan to your talent. This is probably the biggest change in the engine in five years. If this works as advertised, I'll be thrilled. I've been using the same game plan in every single MP league for probably 2 years real-time.
• Another attempt to improve the field-goal and play-calling logic at the end of the first half, particularly when your team has the lead. Good to see this. At times, the game would act like you were protecting a lead at the end of the game (as in run the ball three times inside the 20 with 45 seconds to go, then kick the FG.)
• Tweak (very small) the free agency AI player acquisition logic. This still needs a redesign in places, far too much for just an update. Hmmm...not sure what this means. Maybe for SP only? (AI) Maybe we can get Jim to weigh in here...
• Add an ordering of the importance of games during the regular season. The top game is shown on channel 2, on down to channel 17. Heh. StelmackSoft goes live!
• Tweak (very small) the player generator. This includes improving linebackers, safeties and fullbacks. I noticed some issues with LBs. Hadn't seen anything with FB/S, but I'm down with anything that might make the running game more vital.
• Tweak the TCY converter. Primarily giving tight ends a big-play rating and reducing punt and kick return abilities. I'll have to give this another look then. I'd love for this to be a viable option.
• Don't allow the AI to call a goal-line defense where it's horribly inappropriate. Should be very big for Rexers.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Man...some good-looking stuff here. Ones that intrigue me at first glance...

hmmmm...nerfing of the one-year deal? I realize Jim shouldn't give too much detail, but maybe a comment about what used to work that won't work as well?

Just a tiny change. No attempt to go into the logic of how long a contract will work. The problem is that the minimum salary continues to drop as a percentage of the cap. The NFLPA is, I'm sure, aware of that. It makes it far too easy in real life to stay under the cap. And easier and easier within the game. I'm just trying to keep up with the NFL, which is itself years behind now.

This is something worth revisiting in future versions of the game.
Tweak (very small) the free agency AI player acquisition logic. This still needs a redesign in places, far too much for just an update. [/b]Hmmm...not sure what this means. Maybe for SP only? (AI) Maybe we can get Jim to weigh in here...

Just a slight change to try and get AI teams to do a better job offering better free agents to fill their holes. Again, that's something that needs a full rewrite in places.

Both these changes will have only a small effect on game play. You probably won't even notice.

[Julio Riddols]

Holy moses... Now thats an update I can get behind.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by TheMeat

And the Nickle/Dime substitutions... Glorious, even though I'd been thoroughly abusing that I'm glad I have to worry about depth again.

Agreed on all counts here.

[Ben E Lou]

Wow. I just created a new game, drafted an offensive juggernaut team (first 20 picks were on offense, then let the AI pick the rest), and loaded up the ol' Lowcountry Shuffle game plan--the one that's produced something absurd like maybe 10 out of my last 15 MP seasons having 50 TD passes or more. Loading up that kind of team would always give me a 13-16 win team in SP testing.

7-9 on the first try.

I've since loaded up several other old game plans, and I've yet to finish over 9-7 in about 10 trials. I guess defense might actually matter now.

I've got some work to do. Nice!

[Icy]

Originally Posted by TheMeat

And the Nickle/Dime substitutions... Glorious, even though I'd been thoroughly abusing that I'm glad I have to worry about depth again.

Awesome, just awesome.

Agree, this is the biggest change towards realism and it's really welcome. Also looking forward to see the tweaks to the passing engine.

Too bad Jim couldn't finish a new FOF, but big thanks for still offering this nice update for free.

Really hope you will find the time to finish it in the future, the desktop text sims scene seems to be slowly dying and needs more releases from all the companies to raise the enthusiasm again. Probably due to it being a niche market where most of developers have it as hobby and with the global crisis they have been forced to work more hours in their regular jobs, leaving less time for their passion (and i'm referring to myself too not as developer but as designer).

Hope the golden years will be back, but i guess the genre will die with us hardcore gamers, as most of kids prefer the fast paced console games or the browser based multiplayer ones.

[Ben E Lou]

One thing I don't find in the FAQ that *seems* obvious, but I want to make sure: do we now need to drop the MP files in the "leagues" folder in the new location?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Wow. I just created a new game, drafted an offensive juggernaut team (first 20 picks were on offense, then let the AI pick the rest), and loaded up the ol' Lowcountry Shuffle game plan--the one that's produced something absurd like maybe 10 out of my last 15 MP seasons having 50 TD passes or more. Loading up that kind of team would always give me a 13-16 win team in SP testing.

7-9 on the first try.

I've since loaded up several other old game plans, and I've yet to finish over 9-7 in about 10 trials. I guess defense might actually matter now.

I've got some work to do. Nice!

Played around more with this team. Went with Rex offense and Rex defense for several runs of the same season. Theoretically, a team like this (league's worst defensive talent and league's best offensive talent) ought to be a little worse than mediocre, because in the first few seasons of a drafted league, defense is ahead of the offense because of cohesion. (Of course, we all know that in past versions, even with the cohesion issue, offense trumped defense significantly.) SOS would make a difference, of course, so I've included that.

Trial	W	L	WinPct	OppWinPct
1	9	7	0.563	0.484
2	10	6	0.625	0.461
3	9	7	0.563	0.453
4	5	11	0.313	0.512
5	8.5	7.5	0.531	0.455
6	9	7	0.563	0.473
7	7	9	0.438	0.490
8	8	8	0.500	0.461
9	4	12	0.250	0.479
10	6	10	0.375	0.496
11	10	6	0.625	0.506
12	5	11	0.313	0.520
13	7	9	0.438	0.473
14	7	9	0.438	0.488
15	8	8	0.500	0.518
	112.5	127.5	0.469	0.485

The team is performing pretty much exactly how I would hope/expect that it would, passing the first sniff test for me with flying colors. This patch could be the kind of game-changer many of us have wanted.

[FFL Buffalo Bills]

wow alot of changes for sure.

Will any of this improve the ability to Go for it on 4th down. When ever ya want. Like 4th and 1 on the 1,2,3,4,5 instead of kicking FG's That just kills my team. Always to me means everytime Im in that situation. And it NEVER happens.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Played around more with this team. Went with Rex offense and Rex defense for several runs of the same season. Theoretically, a team like this (league's worst defensive talent and league's best offensive talent) ought to be a little worse than mediocre, because in the first few seasons of a drafted league, defense is ahead of the offense because of cohesion. (Of course, we all know that in past versions, even with the cohesion issue, offense trumped defense significantly.) SOS would make a difference, of course, so I've included that.




The team is performing pretty much exactly how I would hope/expect that it would, passing the first sniff test for me with flying colors. This patch could be the kind of game-changer many of us have wanted.

Very encouraging. I am going to go the opposite way, load up on defense and neglect the offense. Hopefully we will see something around .500, or just above.

[Ben E Lou]

Excellent. I'm simming forward about 15 seasons to look at talent, stats, etc. So far, it looks like the crazy TD pass numbers are falling into line with reality fairly well.

[RedKingGold]

To me this, these tweaks are pretty much as good as a new game release.

We may have to re-look into the TCY-FOF conversion process again. If it's fixed, that may truly re-ingivorate my interest in SP.

[MIJB#19]

Some interesting changes indeed, some resulting in additional questions on the matter.

•Adjust contract demands to reflect the new salary cap numbers. Note that because of this change, those of you in multi-player leagues should try and upgrade at the same time your commissioner upgrades (though if your commissioner is aware of how the changes will manifest, he can instruct you on how you should alter contract offers.
•Tweaks to the contract valuation algorithm (can't really explain tweaks without detailing the algorithms, which would give too much away).

Nothing to complain here. This sounds like it'll be a good fix. I do wonder: do these fixes make the contract-restrictions that many MP leagues picked a moot point, or will they still be required to avoid things turning into a one-year only party?

•Several rather large changes in the play-resolution engine, particularly to the passing game. Again, I'm not going to provide details, but this will have a significant impact on game-planning. I'm aware there will be complaints at first, because there will be a learning curve and it might appear that game-planning has less impact than in the past. But I think once you're used to these changes, it will make for a more enjoyable experience as you'll have to better tailor your plan to your talent. This is probably the biggest change in the engine in five years.

Mixed feelings from this comment.

A fix was required, the game had turned into a race to have the best QB-RB-WR-WR combo, where people can get away with (and even benefit from) neglecting other parts of their team. At the same time I don't understand the need for a learning curve to enjoy the game. Doesn't it just mean that going back to game planning to the strenghts of the players will be more important than having the right bars at WR?

•Another attempt to improve the field-goal and play-calling logic at the end of the first half, particularly when your team has the lead.

If this included a fix to the 'wrong team calling the time out' part, I think I'm going to be really happy here.

•Tweak substitution algorithm for starting quarterbacks.

Would it be possible to tell a bit more about this fix? Right now it seems to be a bit of a mystery when the QB1 gets pulled, or when QB2 gets pulled after that.

•Fix a bug with how summer-league experience is applied to each position.

excellent.

•Add an ordering of the importance of games during the regular season. The top game is shown on channel 2, on down to channel 17.

Quoted this one as it may seem to not be an important fix, but for the SP environment I think it's a nice immersion booster. Small things sometimes do matter.

•Don't allow the AI to call a goal-line defense where it's horribly inappropriate.

Just to avoid confusion between different interpretations of the term AI (I'm expecting some to read that just as the non-human opponent), is my assumption correct that we're talking about the simming of games here and not the part of the game where people go into play calling mode against a game-controlled team?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Nothing to complain here. This sounds like it'll be a good fix. I do wonder: do these fixes make the contract-restrictions that many MP leagues picked a moot point, or will they still be required to avoid things turning into a one-year only party?

Based on what Jim said in response to me earlier, it sounds like one-year deals still work, and that it's actually *easier* now to keep a team together. He's going for realism there. I'd argue that the "realism" solution is less fun, but I get where he's coming from. This was his response on that...

"Just a tiny change. No attempt to go into the logic of how long a contract will work. The problem is that the minimum salary continues to drop as a percentage of the cap. The NFLPA is, I'm sure, aware of that. It makes it far too easy in real life to stay under the cap. And easier and easier within the game. I'm just trying to keep up with the NFL, which is itself years behind now."

Just to avoid confusion between different interpretations of the term AI (I'm expecting some to read that just as the non-human opponent), is my assumption correct that we're talking about the simming of games here and not the part of the game where people go into play calling mode against a game-controlled team?

Based on the tests I've run on that, it's the simming of games. I set my human-run team to HEAVY run-aggressive and GL, and it only did GL in places where GL made some sense--never on 1st and 10.

[Ben E Lou]

A few observations after 12 seasons of QuikSimming

• YAC per catch is wayyyyy up. Pulled a full season pre-patch and got 2.31. Post-patch? 3.51.
• Short pass attempts are wayyyy up.
• Ypa on short passing either didn't change at all or changed so little that it's insignificant.
• Completion percentage on short passes is significantly lower (dropped from around 82% to around 73%). So YAC must be what's causing ypa to stay fairly static. I like that.
• Rex has bumped up his short passing playcalls quite a bit. Loading up my WOOF team in 6.2 on one machine and 6.3 on the other, I get a 49-34-17 split on 1st and 10 in 6.3 as opposed to 49-21-30 in 6.2. Distances are 27.3-21-51.7 and 39.4-25.8-16.8-12.3-5.7 in 6.3 versus 31.0-23.7-45.3 and 30-28.7-20.3-14.5-6.5 in 6.2. If Rexy is our initial guide to game planning, it's clear that he's saying to throw shorter passes.

[Yoda]

Damn, it's a shame my wife isn't going on a trip soon.

[Draft Dodger]

this is really cool

[Subby]

As good as getting a new game, in my opinion.

Jim delivers. Again.

[Mistwood19]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Damn, it's a shame my wife isn't going on a trip soon.

And you'll really let that stop you???

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Mistwood19

And you'll really let that stop you???

From testing, yes. Especially since I still have to finish up on her website.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

A few observations after 12 seasons of QuikSimming

• YAC per catch is wayyyyy up. Pulled a full season pre-patch and got 2.31. Post-patch? 3.51.
• Short pass attempts are wayyyy up.
• Ypa on short passing either didn't change at all or changed so little that it's insignificant.
• Completion percentage on short passes is significantly lower (dropped from around 82% to around 73%). So YAC must be what's causing ypa to stay fairly static. I like that.
• Rex has bumped up his short passing playcalls quite a bit. Loading up my WOOF team in 6.2 on one machine and 6.3 on the other, I get a 49-34-17 split on 1st and 10 in 6.3 as opposed to 49-21-30 in 6.2. Distances are 27.3-21-51.7 and 39.4-25.8-16.8-12.3-5.7 in 6.3 versus 31.0-23.7-45.3 and 30-28.7-20.3-14.5-6.5 in 6.2. If Rexy is our initial guide to game planning, it's clear that he's saying to throw shorter passes.

[RedKingGold]

(for those who don't know, I love me some faggoty offensive gameplans pre-patch)

[Super Ugly]

Fabbo. Thanks Jim!

[FrankF199]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'm glad I could update the game again this year. I would have liked to create a full new version, but was unable to put the full plan into place.

The engine changes will, I'm sure, be very different for you at first. I did a huge amount of studying of play results in the NFL over the past two years and concluded I needed to rebalance how the engine resolves passing plays. The NFL official game logs have a lot more data than in the past.

I'm finding extreme game plans generate fewer wild numbers. Without even trying to limit extreme game plans. That's encouraging. Though I know our veteran game planners will soon adjust in ways I can't even imagine.

I won't detail the changes. It would require explaining too much about how the game uses ratings. And there are too many changes to explain in full. I rewrote about 500 lines of code here. Usually that's more than I would like to do for an update, but I thought it was necessary.

Again, I'm glad I can keep the game fresh and hope I can remain in this business for at least another decade.

Thank you!

[QuikSand]

Just checking in for the first time, and I'm overwhelmed by the list of changes. Really above and beyond, Jim, hats off.

[Ben E Lou]

For those asking about what to do about multiple leagues, Flasch posted a thread, and I've answered, I think, all of the questions being asked.

6.3 MP Conversion thread - Front Office Football Central

[Ben E Lou]

Stats are falling into line nicely so far. The real test of that starts shortly, when I fully take control of a team against the AI. I expect to win, but I'm hoping I can no longer throw 50 TD passes virtually every season.

So far, it appears that the RB-->WR conversion thing that some have been concerned about basically works itself out in this version because RBs seem to be much more important.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

A few observations after 12 seasons of QuikSimming

• YAC per catch is wayyyyy up. Pulled a full season pre-patch and got 2.31. Post-patch? 3.51.
• Short pass attempts are wayyyy up.
• Ypa on short passing either didn't change at all or changed so little that it's insignificant.
• Completion percentage on short passes is significantly lower (dropped from around 82% to around 73%). So YAC must be what's causing ypa to stay fairly static. I like that.
• Rex has bumped up his short passing playcalls quite a bit. Loading up my WOOF team in 6.2 on one machine and 6.3 on the other, I get a 49-34-17 split on 1st and 10 in 6.3 as opposed to 49-21-30 in 6.2. Distances are 27.3-21-51.7 and 39.4-25.8-16.8-12.3-5.7 in 6.3 versus 31.0-23.7-45.3 and 30-28.7-20.3-14.5-6.5 in 6.2. If Rexy is our initial guide to game planning, it's clear that he's saying to throw shorter passes.

I for one would REALLY welcome this kind of change. For dozens of seasons in MP, I have tried to build a west coast offense with YAC receivers and high completion percentages. Move the ball down the field with efficiency. And while I've been successful enough to finish with an average record of about 10-6, my squads have nonetheless consistently taken second-seat to the Air Coryell big-bombing, 50/60 TD teams. If all this is accurate, my gameplans might actually work BETTER, rather than worse, a welcome change.

[Raiders Army]

Thanks Jim!

[Eaglesfan27]

Great news. Looking forward to playing some SP again and messing around with gameplans this week.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Thanks Jim, this patch is almost like getting a new game for free..

I will always continue to support your games no matter what because of your dedication.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. I've cleared all of the "I can't figure out how to install the patch" posts and help. Use this thread to discuss the patch, the changes, the impressions, thank Jim, etc.

[Jughead Spock]

I'm thrilled about the potential implications. I've stubbornly built more into a good defense/running game team over the years, now it looks like it may actually have some effect.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Stats are falling into line nicely so far. The real test of that starts shortly, when I fully take control of a team against the AI. I expect to win, but I'm hoping I can no longer throw 50 TD passes virtually every season.

So far, it appears that the RB-->WR conversion thing that some have been concerned about basically works itself out in this version because RBs seem to be much more important.

JT Roever says thanks!

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

So far, it appears that the RB-->WR conversion thing that some have been concerned about basically works itself out in this version because RBs seem to be much more important.

ORLY?

[zbuckley]

Has anyone tried to build a "dominate defense" team. Just curious if you could make a 2000 Ravens type team with the new patch

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

ORLY?

Lucky!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

ORLY?

That's my initial impression, at least.

[miked]

Originally Posted by zbuckley

Has anyone tried to build a "dominate defense" team. Just curious if you could make a 2000 Ravens type team with the new patch

Well, to be honest, you can do this in SP if you want with the current/past version(s). It's MP where you have guys like Ben, Quik, etc that make gameplans to make the most of the engine. In SP, the AI doesn't focus on getting the stud QB/WR/WR combo to dominate for the next decade, they focus on perceived holes (even if it's an OG with the 3rd pick).

[MizzouRah]

Nice!!!

Thank you Jim!

[Mike Lowe]

Jim, all you are missing are some hand-warmers or a new mini-game and you could have charged us for a brand new game like some other companies we hold so dear to our hearts.

[Dutch]

I simmed two seasons with my short pass GP just to make sure it still works.

10th year QB (92/92)
4th year RB (47/47)
5th year FL (72/72)
10th year SE (37/37)
7th year TE (76/76)

The FL average 1800 yards per season, the TE average 800 yards, and the RB mustered 1,000+ yards both season.

First run: 12-4 and a championship
Second run: 14-2 and a championship

Testing complete.

(EDIT: I will say this, that stud QB didn't get 100 QB Rating either season...I found that noteworthy.)

[Flasch186]

...thoughts on what this does to leagues with house rules in order to effect cap space etc. Ie, only reneg players in final years, only offering X amount of year deals to FA's, etc.?

[Surtt]

Add normal substitution for nickel and dime packages on defense.

I don't see any backup slots on the nickel and dime screen.
(or did I screw up my update?)

If your nickel back is also your backup CB.
Who gets substituted in?