ESPN Reporting ACC takes only Miami & Va. Tech.

[ScottVib]

Outside the Lines in is reporting that in a shocker.. the ACC is only taking Miami & Virginia Tech from the Big East..

[ScottVib]

dola, USA Today and the Washington Post have also said the same thing.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2003-06-24-acc-invites_x.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28663-2003Jun24.html?nav=hptop_tb

[ScottVib]

double dola...

I can't imagine the ACC stopping at 11 teams.... so this makes you wonder who will be the third school if not Syracuse or Boston College?

Maybe East Carolina? South Florida? Central Florida?

[Iceberg]

I doubt that East Carolina would meet the ACC academic standards and im not sure about the other two either. I believe academics was the primary reason West Virginia wasn't given any consideration.

[MylesKnight]

Although I love the mention of UCF Scott, however much of a huge longshot (and pipedream of mine) that is, I'm thinking why won't the ACC just stick with 11 if in fact Miami and Va. Tech are the only two invitees.

I mean it works for the Big Ten..

[Craptacular]

You need 12 for a conference championship game in football, don't you?

[Radii]

I would think they need the football conference championship to guarentee increased revenue, so a 3rd team eventually seems likely, but I have no idea what's going on here. This got so f'd up and confusing over the last week it made my head spin.

[Daimyo]

Maybe the Big Ten and ACC can petition to get that 12-team limit lowered to 11 since they're two pretty powerful conferences (and probably have a lot of influence).

[MylesKnight]

I agree 12 is the logical number for the ACC, but from what we've seen, this group (the current ACC schools) is hardly the conventional thinktank.

I really don't think Duke & UNC, for example, care too darn much about acheiving the magic number of 12 in order for the Conference to be able to throw a Football Championship Game. There interest (especially in Duke's case), is Hoops, period. I think they'd be perfectly happy with a 1 school expansion (Miami) and the ability to keep a Full Round-Robin Conference Hoops Schedule. BCS $$$ can do a lot of things, but they can't replace that..

The Miami/VT invitee scenario seems awfully interesting, seeing as this possibility was never mentioned (or at least I never read/heard about it until now) but from a Geographical standpoint, makes excellent sense.

[mckerney]

Coach K was saying how they should stop at Miami because they wouldn't want to interfere with the business of others, which I believe is coach talk for "Please don't make my play Syracuse every year."

[Daimyo]

From a competitive balance standpoint it seems perfect... they were already super strong in basketball so no need to interfere with that and now they also become super strong in football.

How long until the FOFC Syracuse contingent says they never wanted to join the ACC anyway? :)

[Airhog]

hmm but wouldnt an odd number of teams make it difficult to schedule?

[Swaggs]

Va Tech (and the other 4 remaining schools) has vowed not to accept an invitation in the place of Syracuse or BC, so I cannot see them accepting this bid. I think they were invited just to appease political pressure from the state government.

I think the more logical conclusion here is:
1.) Miami goes it alone and the ACC petitions to allow a championship game with 10 teams.

or

2.) Miami stays put because without Syracuse and BC, their Northeastern fan base will be displeased by their schedule.

[MylesKnight]

You've gotta kind of shake your head a bit at Virginia Tech though if all this does actually go through.

I mean in the span of a couple of weeks to go from suing the University of Miami, Syracuse and Boston College as well as the ACC, and desperately trying to save their own League, the Big East, to now actually getting an invite (and trust me, there would not be an invite if there was any question what VT's answer would be) to become a member of the Conference they were so determined to stop?

Hey, if given the choice I'm sure any of the current Big East schools involved in the proposed lawsuit would've probably done the same, but still..

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Daimyo
How long until the FOFC Syracuse contingent says they never wanted to join the ACC anyway? :)

Many SU people thought it was a bad idea anyway. I vehemently disagreed with them. This is, simply put, a disaster.

[Syrinx]

Originally posted by Iceberg
I doubt that East Carolina would meet the ACC academic standards and im not sure about the other two either. I believe academics was the primary reason West Virginia wasn't given any consideration.

But Miami meets them? Wow!

[scooper]

Miami as an institution is strong academically, if I'm not mistaken. They just sold their academic souls in the 80's and 90's for the sake of football.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Syrinx
But Miami meets them? Wow!

If you have any doubts about Miami's academic qualifications, I'd direct you to look again at the strength of their football program. That should certainly help settle any doubts you may have had.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
You've gotta kind of shake your head a bit at Virginia Tech though if all this does actually go through.If this goes though and VT joins the ACC, I will be terribly ashamed of my university. It's one thing to receive an invite and switch conferences in the best interests of the school, but it's another to act so hypocritical during the process.

There are some VT fans out there that still value the integrity it would take to say no to the ACC, but I fear that there's many more that don't care about the character of the university, just as long as they have a team they can brag about at the water cooler.

[cthomer5000]

Having no basis for this, i'm going to just throw this out there; this seems to be me like something that could be a compromise between the Big East and ACC.

Taking Va Tech and Miami would allow them (ACC) to grab a 3rd team and keep it a southern conference.
Va Tech and Miami help ACC boost their football strength
The Big East can keep a lock on the northeast, and now grab other teams that've been talked about to either fill it back up or go all the way to 12
both conferences end up at 12 with a conference championship

It seems like if the conferences just agreed to move those 2 teams, then raid some other conferences for the rest of their members, that it could work out for everybody. Though ideally the Big East would want to keep everyone, they might figure that giving up the 2 southern schools is better than losing 3 (or 4) very good teams.

[Craptacular]

Yeah that would work out for everybody ... oh, wait. How about the other conferences that get raided ... C USA for example?

[ScottVib]

Of course not mentioning is the ACC did do what they had to do and kill off the Big East's BCS bid. A Big East conference with a Virginia Tech "anchor" could possibly hold onto the bid; without them or a replacement the Big East will likely lose its BCS spot when the deal is renegotiated.

The only way the finances even come remotely close to working would be with two bids for the league. By killing off one of the automatics they increase the chance of that exponentially. What will really be interesting is how things shake out at FSU, the lead supporter of expansion, when the league gets its two BCS bids in 2004-5, but the teams are Miami and Virginia Tech?

For most of the traditional ACC schools this pushes them into battling for 2nd or 3rd on a good year, and 4th in a typical year, for Duke fans... well at least Basketball practice starts in October.

IMO the Big East has to get to 11 teams as well, if that's going to be where the ACC tries to get the line for a conference championship, then they need to be there too. I don't know how the Big East finds a team that gives them their "anchor" school to keep the bid (assuming both schools accept). Louisville and Cincy (two definite must take schools for the Big East IMO) will at least improve the conferences hoops profile and aren't bad football programs (adding Pitino and Huggins to a conference with Boeheim and Calhoun, certainly isn't a bad thing).

The difference between what the Big East is about to do and what the ACC did... Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese has kept things above board and has been in communications with the Conference USA office. Edit - (Source ESPN.com)

[albionmoonlight]

It sounds like Louisville is willing to leave C-USA and join the Big East if invited. Why would the ACC not want to go after Louisville, too. It is great in Basketball and good in football. It will bring the ACC to 12 teams, and it makes more geographic sense than the Northeast schools. Also, you would get to see UNC-Louisville and Duke-Louisville every year in basktball, which would have to be good for ratings. I'm not on the "let's raid" bandwagon, but since the ACC has chosen to go that route, why not do it all the way?

[ShagVT]

I too am disappointed by all of this. I wish Tech could turn down the offer and just say good riddance to Miami, but there is no way that Gov. Warner will allow that to happen at this point.

My theory on the 11-team setup is that it is a back-room agreement with Notre Dame. Get Miami and VT and Notre Dame will join, but not unless those two accept. I cannot imagine there would be a stronger football conference in the country if that actually happens. With FSU, Miami, ND, VT at the top and VA, MD, GT, Clem, NCSU annual top-25 teams, that rivals the Big 12 and I think exceeds the SEC.

Anyway, this is great news for VT, but I am appalled at that ACC's treatment of everybody involved in this - especially BC and Syracuse, who were really just pawns. I do wish that VT could decline, but I know they won't. On the plus side, now it will only be an hour drive to see the Hokies crush Wake.

[ScottVib]

Notre Dame will not join the ACC, Big East, Northeast Conference, Great Midwest (yes I know its dead), or any conference anytime soon. Big Ten (Eleven) has the best chance of any league of luring them...

I would highly doubt that any back room deal exists (except maybe in the fantasies of the ACC Presidents).. when the 11 team proposal didn't even come out until last night.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by ScottVib
Notre Dame will not join the ACC, Big East, Northeast Conference, Great Midwest (yes I know its dead), or any conference anytime soon. Big Ten (Eleven) has the best chance of any league of luring them...

I would highly doubt that any back room deal exists (except maybe in the fantasies of the ACC Presidents).. when the 11 team proposal didn't even come out until last night.

agreed. Notre Dame has nothing to gain by joining a conference, so they won't. I can see this as a "backroom" deal between the Big East and ACC. My conspiracy theory agreement is:

The ACC would only take two teams (and both basically football-first schools) and leave B.C. and Syracuse alone in return for the Big East dropping the lawsuit. Both teams will probably then look to bulk up to 12 teams by raiding Conference USA or others. Neither cares about that.

[Samdari]

I don' t think BC and SU were pawns. I think Miami truly wanted expansion with them. They thought the strength of their football program was enough to shove them down the ACC's throats and found that was not the case.

I don't buy the back door deal with ND though. ND has been aggressively pursued by the Big 10 every year. I do not see why they would take an invitation to the ACC over one from the Big 10. Why would it need to be back door? Notre Dame would not really be breaking conference ties by leaving. If they were to be considered as the 3rd team, I think you would have seen that approved now. The teams against expansion are worried that their conference payout would go down (their publicly stated reasons are bullshit - its about the money) and having ND in the conference would obviously allay those fears.

Maybe they are expanding to 11, leaving a spot open for Notre Dame? That has worked out pretty poorly for the Big 11 so far.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by ScottVib
IMO the Big East has to get to 11 teams as well, if that's going to be where the ACC tries to get the line for a conference championship, then they need to be there too. I don't know how the Big East finds a team that gives them their "anchor" school to keep the bid (assuming both schools accept). Louisville and Cincy (two definite must take schools for the Big East IMO) will at least improve the conferences hoops profile and aren't bad football programs (adding Pitino and Huggins to a conference with Boeheim and Calhoun, certainly isn't a bad thing).


The schools I have heard mentioned in connection with the BE were Louisville, Memphis, South Florida, Central Florida, East Carolina, and Marshall. I hadn't heard anything about Cincinatti, but if the BE could get Louisville and Cincinatti, I would have to say that it would assume the crown for king of college hoops, taking that title from the ACC.

On the football side the prospects for the BE are even worse than when Syracuse and BC were leaving. Louisville and Marshall give them another couple of Top-25 caliber teams, but without an established power, it will be interesting to see if the BE can keep its BCS slot.

I think the best bet for the BE is to try to get to 12 - with the teams involved, it would be too hard for the BCS to not give them an automatic bid. Consider:

East
Connecticut
BC
Syracuse
East Carolina
Central Florida
Rutgers

West
Cincinatti
Marshall
Louisville
West Virginia
Pitt
Toledo

Feel free to swap UCF/Toledo with any of USF, Memphis, Tulane, Temple.

Make no mistake, with out an annual top 10 program, this will still be a hard sell, but those 12 teams have enough annual top-25 talent that I think they could make a case.

[Marmel]

I am just glad this is finally over. At first, I was happy to be included in Miami's plans for the move tot he ACC (as a syracuse fan). Eventually, the whole situation made me sick, and I stopped caring what happened.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Yeah that would work out for everybody ... oh, wait. How about the other conferences that get raided ... C USA for example?

Well, the difference for the other conferences getting raided is that those are teams that are getting into the "big time". The ACC raiding the Big East was the opposite - it was basically kicking 4 or 5 schools out of the BCS club.

Nobody complains when programs are elevated into an "elite" conference.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm not sure VTech will accept. After all it was in the lawsuit to begin with. It'd look foolish for it to accept it now. Of course there may be political pressure from above, but I wouldn't be surprised if only Miami leaves.

Then, of course, the Big East would replace them with Louisville. Making them an above average (but not great) football conference, but a great basketball conference.

[scooper]

(Cue the Imperial March from Empire Strikes Back as I give an ND fan's perspective)

It's a bit of a misnomer that the Big Televen would be more attractive to Notre Dame than the ACC and there are a couple reasons:

Geography: If ND played in the Big Televen, including home games, they would play all but one or two games withing a few hundred mile radious. They really stive to spread out more. The ACC would allow them access to the South and the East Coast. Plus they would probably have more clout with the ACC, forcing them to allow ND to only play 6 or 7 conference games a year, allowing for traditional rivals with Big Televen schools Michigan and Purdue (and maybe MSU), along with Navy (ND will always play Navy for loyalty reasons) and their biggest rival, Southern Cal.

Academics: The Big Televen is a conference full of huge state schools that are driven by research and post-graduate studies. Notre Dame's focus is on undergraduate education. There are more schools similar to ND in the ACC.

Clout: Like it or not, ND wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to dictate how things go. Habits born of being independant would be hard to break. The Big Televen would probably be a tougher conference to bully politically. At least that's my perception.

Hard feelings: This may not be a big factor, but ND tried to join the Big Televen (then 10) decades ago. They were blocked by the Big 10. At the time there was a bit of anti-Catholic sentiment showed by some big 10 members. Oned example is Michigan's Fielding Yost.

Now, there are a couple reasons why it won't happen:

Miami: ND will not put itself in a position to play away games at Miami. This stems from the treatment of some trustees and bigshot alumni the last time they played Miami at the Orange Bowl. This included physical threats, urine, profanity, etc. Some powerful people don't want ND to ever play at Miami again. Before anybody accuses them of ducking Miami, look at the other teams they play. They don't duck strong programs. Also, ND won 2 out of the last three against Miami so fear was not a factor. If it was out of fear, they could have played them while Miami was down. They did not.

A couple solutions to the above would be putting ND and Miami in separate divisions or playing Miami/ND at neutral sites.

Money: ND makes a lot of money as an independant. Any deal with any conference would have to allow ND to keep its home game deal with NBC (or whoever the high bidder is next time) Greedy? Yes, but college football is not as pure as many hope.

Tradition: That's the way it's always been. It's a program that values tradition.

Myself, I like the status quo, but if I had to pick a conference, I would want the ACC. Mainly because living in Ohio, I see plenty of Big Televen football. Plus ND already plays Big Televen schools and would probably continue to do so. I would just like the variety. I think programs like NC State and Maryland are going to stick around for awhile. I'd like to see more of them. Plus, ND-FSU can be very intense. It would be great to see that made into a permanent series.

[ScottVib]

There have been so many teams mentioned at one time or another as targets for Big East that its easy to miss a few:

I've seen: Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Marshall, East Carolina, South Florida, Central Florida, Army, Navy, UMass (with football upgrade), Villanova (football upgrade), Temple (all sports), Penn State (pipedream), Notre Dame (pipedream), Florida State (see pipedream below (repeated from ESPN), Maryland (see pipedream below (repeated from ESPN) That doesn't count the basketball only schools that were mentioned including: Marquette, Xavier, DePaul, St. Joseph's, etc.

Personally I'd prefer this alignment if the Big East Went to 12 teams..

Pro's - 12 teams, Temple, Louisville, Cincy bring something to the hoops table.
Con's - Expanded Geographical footprint increases travel costs for Title IX and non-Olympic sports, no "Marquee" school makes Big East a better C-USA, but no BCS.

SuperCon: Would have to split with the non-football schools and the rivalries built up.

North:
UConn
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Marshall

South:
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
Pittsburgh
South Florida
Central Florida


I'd personally keep it to a 10 team league and have a loose confederation (under the Big East banner) with the hoops schools.

Syracuse
Boston College
UConn
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Louisville
Cincinnati
2 from the remaining riff - raff (Temple, UCF, S. Florida, Marshall, ECU, etc.) probably including one or both Florida schools if only to get a foothold in the Florida Football recruiting area.

This league then joins with the remaining 6 non-football members (Notre Dame, Providence, Villanova, St. John's, Georgetown, Seton Hall) with 2 guys joining the "Hoops League" for basketball season.

Absolute Pipe Dreams for any Big East fans.

First they get Notre Dame or Penn State and keep their BCS status. *Neither likely to happen, Penn State would probably be more likely then Notre Dame)*

Second a vengeful Big East talks Miami and Virginia Tech into staying and talks Florida State and Maryland into the Big East, with this development Notre Dame becomes an all sport member and Louisville rounds out the 12-some *DEFINITELY WON'T HAPPEN*

[vtbub]

This is all so incredibly dumb. Why just 11?

[ISiddiqui]

Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

Yes, that was floated for a short while early in the process as the Big East tried to find ways to retain Miami..

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by ShagVT
Well, the difference for the other conferences getting raided is that those are teams that are getting into the "big time". The ACC raiding the Big East was the opposite - it was basically kicking 4 or 5 schools out of the BCS club.

Nobody complains when programs are elevated into an "elite" conference.

Well, a conference that has a good thing going and then gets raided will complain. You could find a lot of people that would argue that CUSA, with teams like Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis, is already an "elite" basketball conference. Tell me again that no one would complain if Louisville and Cincinnati jumped ship for both sports, or if Marquette and DePaul left for basketball.

[Anrhydeddu]

As part of the FOFC SU contigency, I am sick that they could remain in a two-bit conference with very little history. SU lost its Penn State rivalry (which was the big game when I grew up there) and now could lose the Miami rivalry. What do they have to replace that? Rutgers? Temple? UConn? Give me a break, that's deplorable. In hoops, Louisville will not care about a rivalry with SU, they already have two great rivalries in their region with UK and Indiana. It is my bias that SU is par with the best of the ACC schools and now may have to be stuck with a bunch of turkeys.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Wasn't there talk about Notre Dame becoming a 'kinda member' of the Big East. Where they'd join the conference, but only have to play 3 or 4 conference games and could set up the rest of their schedule however they wanted?

That would set an ugly and dangerous precedent. What would the point of a conference be if the members didn't play by the same rules?

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
What do they have to replace that? Rutgers?

you got it right on the first try. I can't wait till we drop Syracuse at home at the end of this season.

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
It is my bias that SU is par with the best of the ACC schools and now may have to be stuck with a bunch of turkeys.

Actually, the turkeys are precisely the ones that SU will not be stuck with. ;)

http://classof.alumni.vt.edu/class/2003/photos/Misc0102/09.jpg

[Anrhydeddu]

I'm thinking back on 50 years of SU football history (many ups and downs) and 30 years of SU basketball history - not the last 5. Penn State was able to move to the Big 10, SU should have had done something similar (moving to a major conference).

[ISiddiqui]

That's your bad for joining a conference, Anrhydeddu... now you gotta stick it out, until someone wants you enough :p.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by ShagVT
Actually, the turkeys are precisely the ones that SU will not be stuck with. ;)





Syracuse 50, Virginia Tech 42 (3 OT)
November 9, 2002

[ShagVT]

Touche! :(

[scooper]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Well, a conference that has a good thing going and then gets raided will complain. You could find a lot of people that would argue that CUSA, with teams like Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis, is already an "elite" basketball conference. Tell me again that no one would complain if Louisville and Cincinnati jumped ship for both sports, or if Marquette and DePaul left for basketball.

A couple points. CUSA is not an elite basketball conference. For years, there was Cincinnati and a few other good programs. Although each has its own history, the others were not top 25 teams for most of the past decade. Until last season, CUSA was weak.

Second: Elite or not, Basketball doesn't matter in this situation. While basketball brings some income, Football money drives college athletics. Do you think the ACC needs Miami and VTech for hoops? No. They are working toward bigger football crowds and deals and specifically, a conference championship game.

Heck, CUSA was formed with football in mind.

[Anrhydeddu]

But Imran, why did it have to be in a conference with Rutgers??? :p

Seriously, don't have to stick it out - conference will constantly be reshuffled and eventually merged into mega-conferences. There will be some semblance of the traditional conferences (ACC, SEC, B10, B12, Pac10) but the rest are just made up on the fly, like the Big East. SU belonged with Penn State as equals but now they are viewed as two seperate tiers.

[Easy Mac]

am i the only one who is amused by the fact that Duke and UNC have been villified by people on both sides of the debate. One side believes they are behind the whole "conspiracy" and the other side is pissed they don't want expansion.

Just bring in VT and Miami, anything farther north doesn't make sense for it to be the ACC, at least as we know it.

[Samdari]

That geography argument is crap. Both SU and BC are closer to the majority of ACC schools than Miami. Another geography lesson - Tallahassee is not on the atlantic coast.

[Anrhydeddu]

Yes it is, all of the world's seas are part of an ocean system (those effected by the tides). The Gulf is part of the Atlantic Ocean. :)

[Samdari]

Funny how they call it the Gulf Coast rather than the atlantic coast.

[Easy Mac]

Well technically, none of the schools are on the atlantic coast.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by scooper
A couple points. CUSA is not an elite basketball conference. For years, there was Cincinnati and a few other good programs. Although each has its own history, the others were not top 25 teams for most of the past decade. Until last season, CUSA was weak.

Second: Elite or not, Basketball doesn't matter in this situation. While basketball brings some income, Football money drives college athletics. Do you think the ACC needs Miami and VTech for hoops? No. They are working toward bigger football crowds and deals and specifically, a conference championship game.


While respecting your points on the matter, the main reason I was posting was to respond to comments that the ACC and Big East could raid other conferences and it would "work out for everyone", as well as "<b>nobody</b> complains when programs are elevated into an elite conference." Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some widespread restructuring of conferences; however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Craptacular
While respecting your points on the matter, the main reason I was posting was to respond to comments that the ACC and Big East could raid other conferences and it would "work out for everyone", as well as "<b>nobody</b> complains when programs are elevated into an elite conference." Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some widespread restructuring of conferences; however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

I know i was the first to propose that "everybody" would be happy, but I really just meant the ACC and Big East. This is all contingent upon this being a backroom deal to keep both conference's alive. Still, ultimately their is going to be major change throughout the conferences nationally. It might as well happen now.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
I know i was the first to propose that "everybody" would be happy, but I really just meant the ACC and Big East.

I figured that may have been your intent, but I just wanted to make sure people understood the flip side of things. And to think, this thread hasn't evolved into a playoff debate yet ... uh oh! ;)

[ShagVT]

Originally posted by Craptacular
however, some of the comments in this thread seem to promote the idea that as long as the rich get richer, no one should complain.

My point was that the Big East raiding the MAC/CUSA is not a simple matter of the rich getting richer. It's an opportunity for six "poor" schools to become "rich" schools by being a part of the BCS auto-bid prestige machine.

[Samdari]

If the six remain football Big East schools were to recruit 6 Conference USA schools to join them, the resulting "Big USA" conference would still probably not be worthy of a BCS bid. There is a reason C-USA does not have a BCS bid - they stink at football.

[vtbub]

Where the hell is the NCAA in all this?

I'm happy that Duke and North Carolina voted no.

[Anrhydeddu]

As long as SU remains in the Big East, it will not be a "rich" school. With Miami gone supposedly, the BE will be no different than CUSA or the WAC.

[scooper]

Originally posted by vtbub
Where the hell is the NCAA in all this?

I'm happy that Duke and North Carolina voted no.

The NCAA doesn't govern conferences.

[GoldenEagle]

I think the shoe for expansion is now on C-USA's foot and not the Big East. I think the Big East will become an all basketball conference.

[Anrhydeddu]

My respect for VT as an institution and my love for the state of Virginia has gone down in that my perception of getting the politicians and the state government involved in an area that they should not have been. Damn politicans and lawyers. :(

[Swaggs]

This is not yet a done deal.

Miami may not want to join the ACC now that Syracuse and BC (ie: a nice home-away-from-home game for their boosters) are going to be off the table. I think they will, due to hurt feelings, however.

And, the only way I see Va Tech going is if they get pressured from the state government. I think Va Tech in a 8-team conference, where they will probably get the BCS two or three times in any five year period will probably be more profitable than Va Tech in an 11 (or 12) team conference where they will probably get the BCS two or three times in any 10 year period.

[ShagVT]

I honestly cannot see Miami or VT saying no. We can talk about principle and whatnot, but I just don't think there is any way either team would rather stay in the BE.

I am embarrassed by VT's role in all of this, but I don't think any school in college athletics history has ever been treated worse by its conferences than Virginia Tech. They were screwed by the Metro, C-USA, the A-10, and the Big East. I don't have any reason to think that they won't be yanked around by the ACC as well, but I am glad that for once Tech is actually in a favorable position.

[Daimyo]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Seriously, don't have to stick it out - conference will constantly be reshuffled and eventually merged into mega-conferences. There will be some semblance of the traditional conferences (ACC, SEC, B10, B12, Pac10) but the rest are just made up on the fly, like the Big East. SU belonged with Penn State as equals but now they are viewed as two seperate tiers.

I haven't heard the idea mentioned anywhere, but the Big Ten needs a twelfth team and Syracuse needs a strong conference so why not join together? Geography doesn't really matter much IMO when you have the option to open up the NY market (mmm... Chicago and NY in one conference), and they already have Penn St anyway. Would give a pretty nice boost to basketball and another solid (if unspectacular) football team.

[scooper]

Pitt would be a better Big Televen fit than Syracuse.

[Daimyo]

Maybe for Pitt, but what would they bring to the Big Ten that they don't already have?

[Swaggs]

I have heard that Missouri is seen as the best fit (outside of ND), geographically, academically, and athletically, for expansion in the Big 10 (+1).

[Anrhydeddu]

Daimyo, I fully agree with you, this has been brought up in the news frequently since Penn State joined them. However, the perception is that the Big 10 can't take its eyes off of Norty Damn. SU really like its rivalry with Miami but without that, I think going back to Penn Sate plus having relatively nearby OSU will be good. Having SU for basketball will boost that conference even more. Knowing this is all a money game to be played, I want SU into an elite conference, which Big East is not and never will be.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Daimyo
Maybe for Pitt, but what would they bring to the Big Ten that they don't already have?

1. A better geographical fit

2. A natural rivalry with PSU that was once intense

3. A football program that is currently stronger than SU

4. A strong basketball program

5. New facilities. Yes, they share Heinz, but it's still new and nice.

I'm not saying Syracuse doesn't have anything to offer, but they certainly don't offer more than Pitt. And, no, I have no allegience to Pitt whatsoever.

[Daimyo]

I thought Missouri was a good, but boring fit, but that was when Syracuse was unavailable (and I'm guessing the Big10 never thought they'd have a chance to get SU). Now it seems SU is in a tough spot and would be very easy to lure... seems kind of a no-brainer.

[Wolfpack]

I just shake my head at this. I went to the ESPN website this morning and when I saw the headline, I thought, "This is just getting #$#(* ridiculous."

At any rate, though I've been proven wrong at just about every step of this whole process, I'll once again attempt to hazard a guess as to what is going on:

A valid theory that was bandied about on one of the ACC team boards was that the following happened:

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, and BC. Due to opposition by Duke and UNC for philosophical reasons and by Virginia for political reasons, it was shot down 6-3.

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, BC, and VT. Duke and UNC still opposed, only this time, at least one other school (rumored to be NC State) also voted against, killing that idea.

*Swofford decides to go ahead and call a vote for Miami and Virginia Tech individually, knowing that he can get seven votes for each of them, overruling Duke and UNC. However, he can't get the consensus (for whatever reason) on who the twelfth team is so no vote is taken for BC or Syracuse.

So, this may be how we got here. Where it goes, I'm not sure, but I do have some thoughts. The ACC (minus Duke and UNC) have been fighting for a 12-team league with a CCG for too long to go to 11 and just stop. I have to think that there is a third invite coming this week sometime, but the question is who. A lot of fans are going pie-in-the-sky with Penn State or Notre Dame, but I speculate that both BC and Syracuse are still alive. What I think will happen is the ACC waits to see if VT accepts. If they don't, UVa is now free to vote for Syracuse and BC to invite, no blood, no foul. If VaTech does accept, I think the ACC plus the new members will get together to decide which of Syracuse or BC to invite. They may ask those two schools if either of them wish to voluntarily remove themselves from consideration. If neither do, then the league takes input from the two new members and decides which one they will extend the remaining invite to.

A slightly different take on this is that the ACC stops at 11 for now, but will take up expansion again next year. With Miami and VT in, there is no need for UVa to vote against and consequently any "no" votes by Duke or UNC are irrelevant to an expansion to 12.

Either way, I don't think the ACC is going to stay at 11.

[Anrhydeddu]

*A vote was taken on adding Miami, Syracuse, and BC. Due to opposition by Duke and UNC for philosophical reasons and by Virginia for political reasons, it was shot down 6-3.

I can stomach "philosophical reasons" more than I can "political reasons", even though both makes me sick.

[ScottVib]

I'm actually starting to think that perhaps SU and BC are off the table... and that the ACC could still stick it to the Big East by taking Louisville as the 12th team.

Louisville's got the nice new facilities... they have the basketball coaching personality to be very marketable.. Louisville's the 50th market in the US, and a decent name to get you to 12, while somewhat fitting the conferences "footprint". IMO they could be the best/most likely team to fit in as the 12th member of the ACC. (And you get the side benefit of backhanding the Big East)..

For the money to work out the ACC had to be the only BCS conference on the East coast... without an anchor (pending some miracle) the Big East's automatic berth is gone when the BCS TV deal comes up.. SU and BC don't really fit the footprint and were considered when Miami had the power in the negotiations to make it happen... once things went south Miami lost its stroke and once they are in they are a newcomer without the power to force the hand of the conference.. IMO Louisville might make the most sense for the ACC to be Member 12 and give them a conference championship game.

[albionmoonlight]

If I were the ACC, I would want Louisville or SU out of all of the possible schools remaining to get to 12.

[GoldenEagle]

The thing that makes Lousivlle more attractive is the football program that can compete and the nice football stadium that they have. The basketball program is also well off.

But I think if a conference looks to expand, you take Memphis over anyone else besides Louisville.

[Samdari]

Well, scooper, one thing you leave out is that Syracuse, in part, is considered to deliver the NYC tv market, and Pitt delivers the Pittsburgh tv market.

And yes, Daimyo, SU would be easy to recruit today. Please call.

[scooper]

My argument would be that while close, Syracuse really doesn't deliver the NY market. Plus, in spite of being the largest market, NY is not a big college football city.

Besides, NY has so many people from so many places, it probably has the most diverse alumni representations in the country.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by scooper
My argument would be that while close, Syracuse really doesn't deliver the NY market. Plus, in spite of being the largest market, NY is not a big college football city.

Besides, NY has so many people from so many places, it probably has the most diverse alumni representations in the country.
Everyone always seems to want to dispute the idea that SU delivers the NYC market. Why is this? The ACC investigated this and obviously found that SU games delivered much better ratings there than ACC games. Why do people here seem to want to substitute their own suppositions and guesses for the work of experts looking at actual data?

[mckerney]

I've always just called it the Big 10 because I'd never really believed that Northwestern had any real teams.

[digamma]

People forget the Big 12 was formed politically.

IIRC, Ann Richards railroaded Baylor through and the Texas legislature pulled Texas Tech through. SMU, Rice and TCU, being private schools did not have to political clout in Austin to gain an invite.

I agree with the sentiment that 11 makes little sense, but I am not sure another invite is coming this week or this year. We'll see.

I also don't see a way that VPI turns down the invitation. To many people went to bat for them, and they can't say no now.

As far as BC or Syracuse, I selfishly favor BC, because I have friends in Boston and tailgating would be fun there. I would have preferred both over the Turkeys though.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Samdari
Everyone always seems to want to dispute the idea that SU delivers the NYC market. Why is this? The ACC investigated this and obviously found that SU games delivered much better ratings there than ACC games. Why do people here seem to want to substitute their own suppositions and guesses for the work of experts looking at actual data?

Because these are internet message boards where fans are spouting opinions. Our own opinions, not those of university officials. Speaking of fan opinions, I've read and heard more Big Televen opinions looking for Pitt to join than Syracuse. Much of that seems to be PSU driven.

Disclaimer: This is a fan's opinion:

The Big Televen is strong in all sports and financially. They get great television coverage from ABC/ESPN. They are not hurting by missing NYC. Pitt looks to be a better fit geographically. With their proximity to Ohio, they are a more of a midwest school than an east coast school. Plus, they are currently a better football program than SU. Football drives the bus, not basketball.

[Wolfpack]

I think its just perception. Everyone in the city of New York supposedly doesn't give a flip about the hicks upstate and that includes the good folks in Syracuse. Not to mention that in a metropolitan region of about 20 million, most of them care about their pro franchises a lot more than the college ones. Same goes for Boston and BC. Personally, I don't think that's true, and even if it were, the sheer volume of people in both regions would more than offset the supposed "lack of interest" by the region as a whole. After all, the city of New York by itself has more people than Maryland and South Carolina, two of the states in the ACC's footprint. (Va, NC, Ga, and Fla all have over 8,000,000 at this point, I think, so they're larger than NYC)

[Samdari]

Originally posted by scooper
Because these are internet message boards where fans are spouting opinions. Our own opinions, not those of university officials.
I understand that. The whole "SU gets good ratings in NYC" thing is not an opinion, however, its a fact. Athletic departments know that something being aired in NYC that comes in 6th place in local ratings has more people watching than Pitt does when aired in Pittsburgh. Its kind of like someone giving their opinion that water is dry.

That said, I agree with you that Pitt would be invited to the Big Televen before SU, and that would be Penn State driven. The only hope for SU sports (no BC fans here?) is that the Big 10 decides to invite noone, eternally holding a spot for ND, and PSU gets pissed off enough to join SU, BC, WVU, UConn, Rutgers (not important, but thrown in to appease cthomer) et al in the eastern all sports conference they wanted to form 25 years ago.

Maybe the Patriot league would take us. Nope, they are too pure. The Ivy League? (laughter). Hmmm, ESPN is reporting the MWC wants to expand.

[scooper]

Fair enough. I was going on misguided perceptions such as mentioned above by Wolfpack.

[ISiddiqui]

re: Louisville. I think the Big East is in a better position to land them than the ACC at this point.

[tucker342]

What's really lame is the fact that the politicans in Virginia told the University of Virginia not to vote for the plan unless Virginia Tech was included, what's up with that???

[Samdari]

An interesting press release. The first official confirmation of today's worst kept secret in sports.

June 25, 2003

Boston College released the following statement on Wednesday, 6/25/03:

Boston College entered into discussions with the Atlantic Coast Conference regarding conference expansion because we felt it was in the best interest of our student-athletes and our athletics program. Those discussions took place over the last few months in accordance with ACC procedures and without any violations of our responsibilities to the Big East membership.

Our discussions with the ACC were based on a conference expansion proposal that included Miami and Syracuse. Yesterday, in the eleventh hour, the ACC instead voted to invite Virginia Tech and Miami and to exclude Boston College and Syracuse. This unexpected vote has ended our discussions with the ACC.

Today, representatives from the Big East institutions are engaged in discussions with all conference members, including Miami and Virginia Tech, regarding future conference configuration. Boston College is now focused on these discussions, including addressing those issues that have caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal.

[cthomer5000]

This is the first we've heard of Big East teams considering withdrawal. I think anyone quitting on the conference would be akin to hitting the self-destruct button while walking out the door. I think that it would lead to 3 teams heading to the ACC, Pitt trying to squeeze into the Big 10 and the rest scattering to the winds.

[cthomer5000]

dola

If the Big East collapses, can we consider Greg Schiano leaving Miami just weeks before Butch Davis left the worst career move in sports history?

[ISiddiqui]

It already is :D.

[Wolfpack]

It's called "holding the purse strings". NC State and UNC experienced a similar threat albeit for a different reason.

NC State and East Carolina used to play each other every year or other year for much of the 70s and early 80s in a sort of annoying Big Brother-Little Brother rivalry (State usually being the overwhelming winner in most games). East Carolina finally got their football program going by the mid 80s and had won a few contests from State. In 1985 or 86 (can't remember at this second), ECU beat State in Raleigh (all games had been played in Raleigh to that point) and it set off a wild celebration by the several thousand loud and very inebriated Pirate fans, resulting in damage to the stadium and not a few fights among themselves and with State fans. After that, NC State's adminstration put a moratorium on the series. (State and ECU would meet by happenstance in 1991 in the Peach Bowl, a game where State choked away a substantial lead and lost.)

To cut to the point of it, by the early 90s, both State and UNC were looking to upgrade athletics and other facilities on campus. However, in the state legislature, there were several powerful eastern North Carolina members who decided they could make a bit of a power play against both UNC and NC State by veiling threats of witholding funding if the two big state schools didn't put ECU back on their schedules. Neither school really could put up a lot of resistance, particularly State, which needed funds for the new basketball arena (now the RBC Center), so they caved and State and ECU started scheduling games again, though not on a yearly basis. UNC got off a bit lighter, I think only having to play ECU twice, but State got saddled with two games in Charlotte and a home-and-home with ECU. All of those games have been played except for the last mandated game in 2004 in Charlotte. It has been speculated that the series may continue beyond next year during years where there might be a 12th game available. (In this instance, it seems to be a voluntary consideration, rather than mandated from on high)

So, state governments getting their big noses into the affairs of athletics is not without precedent, particularly in this part of the country.

[Anrhydeddu]

cthomer, I think it was talking in past tense, caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal" in refering to what had been happening the past two months.

[Wolfpack]

(chance for a dola)

And yet again, my fearless predictions are reduced to dust, since it looks like BC has decided to remove itself from further consideration (if any is going on, that is).

I'm most distressed about what happened to BC. Syracuse, I could care less about since they seemed to be reluctant to come and were only doing it because of Miami. BC thought the same way, but were much more willing to show they wanted in. BC probably had several assurances from ACC officials that they were as good as in and then this whole fiasco blows up because of the intractable stupidity of the good folks in Chapel Hill, Durham, and Richmond. End result, they're the ones who really have to go back to the Big East, hat in hand. Syracuse isn't really in the same boat since the Big East didn't go after them over their actions as much.

I would not be surprised if Miami opts out, causing VaTech to withdraw itself from consideration and this whole thing falls apart. If that happens, I do fear the ACC will be toast in a few years as a football conference because FSU, Tech, and Clemson may just be fed up enough with Duke and UNC's hold on conference affairs that they would consider withdrawing, even with the stiff penalties they would incur for doing so.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
cthomer, I think it was talking in past tense, caused several Big East institutions to consider conference withdrawal" in refering to what had been happening the past two months.

I don't think so. It's talking about events they are discussing today. Issues they are talking about now are what caused these either past or present considerations of withdrawal. I could see Syracuse and B.C. wanting out if Va Tech and Miami walk.

[Marmel]

The latest is that if UConn apologizes and drops the suit, and Tranghese is gone, Miami will seriously consider saying No to the ACC.

Miami fans are about 70/30 against the current ACC deal as well.

[Anrhydeddu]

Miami fans are about 70/30 against the current ACC deal as well.

I wonder why?

[albionmoonlight]

I am thinking of a word to describe what this whole situation is becomming. It begins with cluster and rhymes with duck.

[Wolfpack]

I can see that. On the FSU board I've been visiting since this process began in earnest, a lot of the FSU fans are supportive of this, but a lot of visiting Canes fans have voiced their disapproval.

The more I think of what's happened, the more I am coming to hate it. It would have been one thing to start with Miami and Virginia Tech, but to end up where we are with all the s* that's happened, it's just f*ed in the head.

[Anrhydeddu]

Miami shouldn't have any loyalties to the Big East, it is just a stepping stone for them. The only thing I can think of is that the Big East, with its patsies, makes it an easy shot at the BCS. ACC would prove harder to do so, esp. with FSU. But Miami, bless their heart, always wanted SU along since that has been their only favorite conference matchup (despite some of the lopsidedness) for fans and alumni. I really don't think Miami cares anything about Rutgers, Temple, Pitt, UConn or even VT. Now BC has always been a rival for Miami and I can see how the original three of UM, BC and Su came to be.

[Marmel]

Miami hates Virginia Tech, for the record.

Miami has ties to Syracuse, and like BC for the Northern exposure.

The reasons why Miami (and their fans) might turn this deal down is because it offers them nothing they wanted to accomplish in the first place.

Namely, (1) A 12 team conference and a Conf. Championship game, (2) A conference with northern teams, and (3) no Virginia Tech.

[Anrhydeddu]

So it was 70/30 against this deal? That would make sense. If it was back to Miami with SU and BC, then the school and fans would favor that?

[QuikSand]

Since every time we talk about college sports the consensus seems to be that "national championship tournaments" are the one true faith - why is it that anyone gives a damn about things like "conferences" anyway? All that matters is who wins the national championship... the basketball season starts once the brackets come out, and football is just a dinosaur for having any semblance of history (though a tattered one at that).

Why does anyone care about conferences? That's just for *gasp* regular season games! Who gives a shit?

[Anrhydeddu]

I think that games like UM/BC, UM/SU, OSU/Mich, USC/ND, Army/Navy, etc. are worth a lot - regardless if they have BCS implications or not. A lot of folks cared nothing about the final UM/OSU game esp. in the Midwest where UN/OU, OU/Texas means nearly everything.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Since every time we talk about college sports the consensus seems to be that "national championship tournaments" are the one true faith - why is it that anyone gives a damn about things like "conferences" anyway? All that matters is who wins the national championship... the basketball season starts once the brackets come out, and football is just a dinosaur for having any semblance of history (though a tattered one at that).

Why does anyone care about conferences? That's just for *gasp* regular season games! Who gives a shit?


How do you get into the National Championship game? Strong conference.

Miami missed outin 2000 to FSU, by fractions of a point, even though Miami had the same record and beat FSU head to head. FSU's stronger conference gave them the seat in the National Championship game.

Now, if you want to talk about a flawed system, I am with you Quiksand, but as the system stands now, conferences are very important if you want to win a Title.

Also, look at BYU and Marshall. they can go undefeated in teh regular season and not even get a sniff of a BCS bowl, nevermind the National Title.

[Anrhydeddu]

Also, look at BYU and Marshall. they can go undefeated in teh regular season and not even get a sniff of a BCS bowl, nevermind the National Title.

And one could argue that they shouldn't even be given the chance in a playoff. I have always been opposed to a playoff system and favor rewarding conference successes. Coming in third in a tough Big 12 or Big 10+ conference means more than going undefeated in the WAC, MWC or CUSA. After all, college football is still very much a regional game.

[ISiddiqui]

Bah... without a playoff college football will always be bush league... of course that's what some people like about it :D.

[Marmel]

A- the problem is BYU and the like are stuck in those conferences. they would love a chance to jump to a BCS conference, but the pwers that be have locked them out. We really don't know if they could compete for a title or not because they have never been given the chance.

[BillyMadison]

How about, to solve all the problems... the Big East and the ACC combine... making a conf. of 20?

[Anrhydeddu]

Billy, just wait a little while.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel
The latest is that if UConn apologizes and drops the suit, and Tranghese is gone, Miami will seriously consider saying No to the ACC.

Miami fans are about 70/30 against the current ACC deal as well.

As one of the two UConn fans around here, IMO Donna and her Hurricanes can go f*#& themselves.

When your state comes up with 100 million to build a stadium to compete in the Big East and then a lying sleeze like her risks your BCS affiliation, she should be apologizing to us.

Now she's 'vowed' to never play in East Hartford. Scumbag.

[Marmel]

jim, the conference has an out clause. Miami and every other team has a right to leave. Connecticut invested their money at their own risk. End of story.

You can talk about back room guarantees, and whatnot, but none of that really matters.

[digamma]

Miami has released an official statment that says something along the lines of "while they are pleased to have received an invitation to join the ACC, they are disappointed BC and SU were not invited and, given that this is a new proposal, they will need to evaluate it on its own merits."

[digamma]

dola

here is the miami statement (http://hurricanesports.ocsn.com/genrel/062503aaa.html)

[digamma]

double dola

by contrast VPI is ready to accept:
Turkeys say yes (http://www.vt.edu/news/showitem.php?id=1056577607)

[Easy Mac]

So is VT now a plaintiff and a defendant in the lawsuit?

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel
jim, the conference has an out clause. Miami and every other team has a right to leave. Connecticut invested their money at their own risk. End of story.

You can talk about back room guarantees, and whatnot, but none of that really matters.

I understand how it works, but for her to be upset with the State of Connecticut is nonsense. They have every right to file suit. For her to demand an apology from us is nonsense.

You want to go, fine, but when it might fall apart around you don't expect us to welcome you back with open arms.

[Marmel]

Uconn will welcome back Miami with open arms if they know what is good for them. Reading the statements above, Miami is not a sure thing to go. They are the cash cow, and UConn (along with the rest of the PDGC) needs them.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel
Uconn will welcome back Miami with open arms if they know what is good for them. Reading the statements above, Miami is not a sure thing to go. They are the cash cow, and UConn (along with the rest of the PDGC) needs them.

Of course we'll welcome them back with open arms. I'm just fired up because of the apology statement.

Syracuse played it correctly. They were going, but at least they made it seem like they regretted having to do it. Boston College looks like they might play the part of the fool. They burned bridges and don't have the weight of a Miami to throw around. I wish UConn could get a crack at BC opening weekend again this season, because there is no St. Pierre to bail them out this time.

I don't really care who is in the conference at this point, just as long as they survive the BCS shakedown that is coming. Heck if we can keep the BCS bid nothing would be better then Miami and Va Tech leaving in a sense, at least that would leave a better chance to make a BCS game as well as a potential boost in recruiting as players could see Syracuse/WVU/Pitt with a better chance of getting to the biggest stage. It might weaken recruiting in Florida, as those players from S. Florida won't get to make that trip twice, and Virginia is a fertile area, but UConn hasn't made inroads in Virginia really anyway, they have at least been able to come up with a couple of players from Florida.

[ISiddiqui]

You can talk about back room guarantees, and whatnot, but none of that really matters.

Actually, legally, it just might :D. Depends on the backroom deal and if someone relied on that 'deal' to their detriment :).

And Virginia Tech are just sleaze. Hell, I dislike Miami, Syracuse, and BC, but that was ok, there is an out clause on all. But VT is a PLAINTIFF that is suing because of the previous defections and said how bad it was... then they go and want to leave themselves. Jeez.

How funny would it be if VT left and Miami said 'no thanks' ;).

[Samdari]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Syracuse played it correctly.
Then why are they getting screwed?

[Wolfpack]

I'd say that if Miami backs out, VaTech will do so as well. After all, why be in a conference where you have potential to be third, fourth, or even fifth dog in football and a league doormat in basketball as opposed to being typically second dog in football and being a league doormat in...oh, wait a minute. Nevermind on that last one. ;)

[Wolfpack]

Samdari: If Miami stays and VT stays and the Big East goes headhunting for some teams for a 12-team league, Syracuse wouldn't be.

I'll believe Miami joining when I see it at this point. They invested too much in getting BC and Syracuse to come along to have them relegated to permanent OOC opponents on the schedule.

I still keep thinking that Miami may bolt the Big East anyway, and convince a few teams from both the Big East and ACC to sign up for a new league. If they could swing ND or Penn State for the new league, they'd take away both bids from the ACC and Big East and give it to the new conference in a heartbeat. I'm probably being fatalistic, but I just feel this is going to end badly for the ACC.

[digamma]

Wolfpack: VPI will accept no matter what. Because of the political pressure they put on the ACC, they really can not say no. They called in all of their favors and must join.

[ISiddiqui]

This article caught my eye:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/stewart_mandel/news/2003/06/25/mandel_acc/

JUST SAY NO

It's not too late, Miami and Virginia Tech.

You still have time to do a great deed for yourselves, for college football and for every self-respecting human being who's ever been the victim of blatant, mind-numbing ineptness.

You can still say no to the ACC.

Sure, this is what you've wanted all along. Sure, it's your NCAA-endorsed right to join whatever darn conference tickles your fancy, lawyers and Connecticut attorney generals be damned.

But you have to stop and ask yourself one thing, 'Canes and Hokies: The ACC may in fact be a better conference on paper, but do you really want to associate yourself with people who have conducted the most pathetic charade of senselessness and groveling since Ahmad Rashad did sideline interviews?

Join me for a moment, won't you, as we look back at the ACC's ultra-suave expansion process:


Its imperialistic intentions publicly outed by Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese in late April, the ACC speeds up its timetable and things appear to be going smoothly. In mid-May, the league votes 7-2 to begin discussions with Miami, Syracuse and Boston College and schedules visits to each campus.


But wait, Virginia Tech is not pleased. Nor is Virginia's governor, senator, attorney general or state bird. The political gun now pointed at his head, UVa president John Casteen becomes a fatal third dissenter (along with Duke and North Carolina) to full-fledged expansion.

"Hmm," says ACC commissioner John Swofford. "Information that could have been brought to my attention yesterday."


In a series of conference calls, the ACC's presidents start concocting Plan B ... and C and D and E. Among the scenarios discussed: Adding four teams: Miami, Syracuse, Boston College and Virginia Tech; adding only Miami; or, adding the Big East's entire membership as well as any or all teams the Big East might be considering as replacements.


Finally, after one more all-night session Tuesday (technically a teleconference, but it's still tempting to picture nine guys lying around a smoke-filled room, ties undone, empty Coke bottles and boxes of chicken wings strewn about the place), the ACC reportedly comes to a consensus. But it's a heretofore-never-discussed, completely-out-of-left-field compromise that seems in no way to satisfy any of the goals they had hoped to achieve by expansion.

So you're saying that after all this, ACC, you're going to stop one team short of getting a championship game? You're willing to water down your prestigious basketball league with two traditional non-factors while excluding the reigning national champion? You're going to invite one school, Virginia Tech, that sued you, while, after two months of courtship, kicking Syracuse and Boston College to the curb and basically stomping on their faces?

Note to self: Take ACC off Christmas card list.

A month ago, there was little reason to balk at the ACC expanding. I'm not naive enough to think college football is any different than any other business, where the players involved have the right to do whatever it takes to better their respective positions. And while the ramifications would be unfortunate for the Big East's remaining teams, I've never bought into the Tranghese-fed company line that the state of college football is somehow dependent on a healthy Big East.

But at this point, it's as if the ACC doesn't deserve Miami and Virginia Tech. Nor, it would seem, should the league be all that appealing to them.

From the start, the Hurricanes had aligned themselves with Syracuse and, to a lesser degree, BC. Are they really prepared to cut all ties with their Northeast counterparts? Furthermore, the Orangemen and Eagles were much less of a threat to the 'Canes' annual BCS hopes than will be the Hokies. And with no championship game, any financial benefits from a new league no longer seem obvious.

And while it's understandable that Virginia Tech didn't want to get left behind in all this, does the school understand just how silly it would look to jump ship at this point, having first lobbied the ACC for inclusion, then turning against it, then pulling a power play of its own?

Even before the ACC unveiled its last desperate hand Tuesday night, Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski -- one of the few reasonable voices throughout this mess -- had summed up the past two months quite aptly when he said, "Obviously, we haven't distinguished ourselves in how we've gone about this."

Krzyzewski also added his hope that the two leagues could soon begin "mending fences" torn down in this fiasco.

Well, here's one good way to get the ball rolling: Let's everybody go back to where they came from.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Samdari
Then why are they getting screwed?

They aren't completely screwed yet. Who knows they could end up in the Big 10, or could be one of the best teams in a football Big East that somehow keeps their BCS bid.

[Wolfpack]

You're probably right, digamma. Still, if Miami rejects, we are no better off as a conference than we were as nine teams, essentially. We still wouldn't have appeal outside our region in football and our basketball degrades a bit because VT is rotten right now.

If I could trade UNC and Duke for Syracuse and BC, I'd be sorely tempted by the offer right now. :mad:

[digamma]

Oh, I agree with you on that.

And I agree that adding only VPI would not add much. I think Miami will eventually say yes, but is posturing a bit for the Big East crowd. We'll see.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Wolfpack

If I could trade UNC and Duke for Syracuse and BC, I'd be sorely tempted by the offer right now. :mad:

Would you do Rutgers and West Virginia for Florida State and Maryland?

[Samdari]

Someone's not gonna like that Jim

[Wolfpack]

Sorry, wouldn't do that. I should probably amend my request by stating that UNC and Duke be consigned to the oblivion of independence (or a conference of just each other) rather than being traded to the Big East. That would still allow them to lord over somebody and I don't think I could wish that on the Big East, much as I'm not a fan of the organization. ;)

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Would you do Rutgers and West Virginia for Florida State and Maryland?

Yes. Then we (Rutgers) would have an easy path to the national title game. :) Just wait.

Originally posted by Samdari
Someone's not gonna like that Jim

damn straight!

[cthomer5000]

seriously though, I think what might end up happening here is the pendulum swining back the other way. Since the Big East has already been talking to some potential replacement teams, why not make them expansion teams and beef up to 12? If you can get Miami and the others behind this, then you can become a 12 team conference with a championship game. Add Lousiville, Cincinnati, East Carolina, and anyone else and get serious about this shit.

Not only does it make it a conference to be recokned with, but it improves basketball (cincy, lousiville), and you protect yourselves from going through this again next year.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by digamma
Wolfpack: VPI will accept no matter what. Because of the political pressure they put on the ACC, they really can not say no. They called in all of their favors and must join. That's just an excuse we're throwing out so we can save face (it's not working, by the way).

All the Governor said that he wanted was to have both state schools in a viable conference so the economies wouldn't falter in each school's region. Realistically, if SU and BC would agree to stay on board, VT could say no to this invite and return to the Big East...which would most certainly retain it's BCS bid (and remain viable) with or without Miami. If the administration is pulling out the "Gov. Warner made us say yes" card, they're lying through their teeth.

[ScottVib]

As the other UConn fan here (if Jim's right that there are only two)... I of course hate this whole deal, but it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I really think the BC statement about discussing the problems that have members contemplating withdrawing is referring specifically to the Va. Tech, Miami, Syracuse, and BC negotiations with the ACC, but also to the discussions that have cropped up in the past about the football teams all withdrawing from the hoops schools and starting over, not so much about withdrawing from the conference and begging and pleading (with no leverage and no fallback plan) to get into any conference with a BCS bid. Withdrawing without any leverage and nowhere else to turn would be foolhardy, at least a BCS-less Big East would still have bowl tie-ins... independents are only eligible for 2 or 3 at large spots in lower tier bowls... or if a miracle occurred and they qualified for the BCS. Not to mention the difficulties of scheduling as an independent...

[Anrhydeddu]

Big East retaining BCS-eligibility without Miami? That's absurd.

[SunDancer]

I like to shoot out a "fictional" conference picture:

Syracuse, UConn, Pittsburgh, Boston College, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech flee to team up with Penn State, Buffalo (UB) and Maryland (ACC). A great regionally-aligned conference with it's hand in pretty much every mid-atlantic to northeast markets.

I always see University of Buffalo as a potential coup. They have a competitive tv market (and a local cable tv sports channel) and opens up new markets. They bring a good size enrollment and have a good academic rep. I think the thing that they would need to do is to invest some money in upgrading the facilities from MAC-standards to BCS-standards.

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Big East retaining BCS-eligibility without Miami? That's absurd.

I believe he was referring to the Big East with Virginia Tech and not Miami... and in that case the Big East likely would have kept its BCS bid with Va. Tech as the "anchor" (at least according to all the cloumnists and analysts). Without either of course there is no shot it keeps the bid.


Problem with UB is they don't have a decent program in either of the revenue sports, they would have a nice market, but won't develop the market until the achieve some success, making them unattractive until at least that point in time.

[Samdari]

Apparently it was the evil NC State who kept SU out. From various sources (conveniently summarized and linked at my friend's SU blog (http://www.syracuse.com/weblogs/orangejuice/)).

"The South Florida Sun-Sentinel is reporting today that North Carolina State chancellor Marye Anne Fox cast the deciding vote against Boston College, joining with Duke and North Carolina in a dissenting vote.

The ACC presidents reportedly decided not to invite Syracuse because it had not taken a passionate role in pursuing an expansion spot. With just one school from the Northeast remaining then, Fox decided it didn't make sense from a scheduling perspective to invite BC."

So, it appears that SU, trying to play it cool for PR reasons (which worked) apparently got bounced in part because they appeared to be cool about joining. Boy did that backfire.

EDIT: more link trouble

[Easy Mac]

To me that logic, if they used it, made no sense. Essentially, you're going to fuck everyone over on both sides by voting against the thing you need in order to get a conference championship. At least Duke and UNC were always against it.

[ScottVib]

Yeah that same story is in the Hartford Courant this morning.... however I would disagree that "evil" NC State kept SU out, according to that story, SU kept SU out.... "evil" NC State kept BC out.

Throughout the process there were rumors that NC State was waivering on the plan all along so their being the ones who killed the 12 team expansion isn't entirely surprising.

Edit - Removed assumptions made in the last paragraph... decided to read more before making an assumption.

[Samdari]

Well, the story I quote indicates that it was Fox (from NC State) who decided it did not make sense to have one team from the NE, and thus voted no on SU. You can say SU's actions kept them out, with some justification, but they did not get to vote, so the more direct 'blame' goes with whoever cast the 3rd no vote - clearly indicated as NC State.

[Wolfpack]

Well, gee, Sam, sorry I pissed in your flakes. ;)

At any rate, I had mentioned above that the speculation was that NC State did scuttle a thirteen team arrangement. Actual events were slightly different from speculated ones, but essentially the same thing happened. The league was not going to 13, regardless of the pie-in-the-sky dreamer set I'd seen in a few places who envision a super-conference of 16 teams. At sixteen, you are just as well to split back to two eight team leagues, i.e. WAC and MWC.

What I still can't fathom is the intractability of all the sides in the ACC in this affair. Seven schools wanted expansion, two didn't. Six of the seven wanted Miami, Syracuse, and BC. The seventh wanted Miami, VT, and a third team of some variety, possibly BC or Syracuse. The big failure was recognizing just how impossible Virginia's situation was. I think had the conference recognized from the start that Virginia was locked into a Miami-VT-Third Choice expansion, then they could have either quietly killed the expansion talk before it got going in earnest, waiting for Duke and UNC to come around, or just started out with Miami and VT as two candidates and tell UNC and Duke to follow or get the hell out of the way.

The resulting situation left BC and Syracuse on the outside because the ACC wasn't going to go to 13 (no way to schedule 13 very well, revenue increase would not be worth the additional team). Syracuse didn't seem to want in, but felt it had to, so agreed to be considered. BC wanted in, but got shafted by VT's power play that left them as the only northern team in the conference, if they were invited. Even so, it seems that six schools were willing to try, but Duke and UNC were unwavering in admitting defeat on expansion and still voted down BC, while State voted BC down because it probably felt it had to for whatever reason (ranging from State really wanting Syracuse to the "northern outpost" theory).

It's still a great, messy clusterf*#$ at this point. Miami and VT do look like they will accept, though. So, questions turn to who is #12? ACC supporters are spinning 11 as a positive, saying that there'll be candidates beating the door to get in now that Miami and VT are on board. Once again, people getting silly by throwing Notre Dame and Penn State out as serious candidates. I can only shake my head and just hope they don't f$*@ this up any more than they already have.

[ScottVib]

Originally posted by Samdari
Well, the story I quote indicates that it was Fox (from NC State) who decided it did not make sense to have one team from the NE, and thus voted no on SU. You can say SU's actions kept them out, with some justification, but they did not get to vote, so the more direct 'blame' goes with whoever cast the 3rd no vote - clearly indicated as NC State.

The story I've seen in several places and that you quote says:

Originally posted by Samdari
The ACC presidents reportedly decided not to invite Syracuse because it had not taken a passionate role in pursuing an expansion spot. With just one school from the Northeast remaining then, Fox decided it didn't make sense from a scheduling perspective to invite BC.

The ACC didn't invite Syracuse "because it had not taken a passionate role in pursuing an expansion spot."

The only place where Fox comes in is saying that "it didn't make sense from a scheduling perspective to invite BC" With just one school from the Northeast.

I'm just not sure how you can read that quote you posted as NC State screwing SU? The only team NC State voted against was BC.... SU never got in the final discussions because of their own behavior not anything NC State did or didn't do... I can probably understand feeling that the ACC screwed SU, but I don't know how from this quote you can come away feeling NC State screwed SU.


In any event here's some confirmation of the story from the Charlotte observer:

There was apparently little serious talk of a 13-team league, but Boston College came closer than Syracuse to becoming the 12th team, the ACC source told The Observer.

A proposal to add Boston College, Virginia Tech and Miami for a 12-team league could only muster an unofficial 6-3 vote, with Duke, North Carolina and N.C. State dissenting.

Virginia had already been persuaded to vote "yes," apparently pacified by the inclusion of Virginia Tech.

Then N.C. State Chancellor Marye Anne Fox changed her vote to "yes" when a two-team expansion to an 11-team league was broached, the ACC source said. Fox's swing vote, in effect, allowed for expansion but kept Boston College out of the ACC.


The Hartford Courant had this version of the story:

The South Florida Sun-Sentinel is reporting today that North Carolina State chancellor Marye Anne Fox cast the deciding vote against Boston College, joining with Duke and North Carolina in a dissenting vote.

The ACC presidents reportedly decided not to invite Syracuse because it had not taken a passionate role in pursuing an expansion spot. With just one school from the Northeast remaining then, Fox decided it didn't make sense from a scheduling perspective to invite BC.

[ScottVib]

dola,

Here is the South Florida-Sun Sentinel's original (and more detailed) version of the story:

It was a standoff between two of the ACC's traditional basketball schools, worried about a reduction of importance, and those looking to upgrade the conference's football inventory to improve its value and competitiveness. One TV source said the ACC, with Miami and Virginia Tech, could increase its football contract from $25 million to $40 million annually.

Virginia Tech passed 7-2, and Miami followed at 7-2. Then, there was a discussion about Syracuse and Boston College. The presidents didn't want to abandon either team, but Syracuse had shown less passion for changing leagues.

When the discussion focused on Boston College, the Eagles were beaten back when North Carolina State President Marye Anne Fox sided with Duke and North Carolina. She had voted for Virginia Tech and Miami.

"It wasn't easy leaving Boston College out," a second president said, "but it made no sense for traveling purposes to have just one school in the Northeast. There was also sentiment to leave the spot open for a while and see what develops."

At that point, it was clear that the required seven votes wouldn't be available for the other schools. The ACC improved the quality of its football, realizing its basketball is among the best in the nation.

In this article the point out that Syracuse never was in the running... they never came up to vote..


On the other hand I wonder if anyone would have reconsidered their vote for Virginia Tech had they known BC would get voted down...

[digamma]

Apparently Miami has scheduled a 4 PM Eastern news conference. Speculation is that it will formally accept the ACC's offer.

[Wolfpack]

#$*&)&*!@!!!! Decision delayed to Monday! Big East is supposedly counter-offering...Miami is apparently really disappointed ACC took VT over Syracuse and BC and it may be enough to scuttle the deal. ##*&*!!! *)*&(&)*&!!!!

[albionmoonlight]

Miami is more trouble then they are worth (which is saying a lot because they are worth a lot of $$$). First they tried to force the ACC to take on two other teams that the ACC did not want in order to get them. Now, they will try to exact some type of tribute from the Big East for staying put. And whereever they end up, I am sure that in five years they will just try and hold that conference hostage for some other demands.

The ACC and Big East should both say--get your whiney bitch ass out of the door and become independent if you think that you are so high and mighty. And they should phrase it exactly like that.

[GrantDawg]

Could the ACC be anymore screwed up?

[MylesKnight]

Hey Everyone, it's Hokie-Pokie Time!!

Everybody.....

"You put your left foot in
You take your left foot out
You join a big lawsuit, and you yell and scream and pout
Then you do the Hokie-Pokie and you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about!

You send your governor in
The Orange and Eagles out
A little blackmail works, and you celebrate and shout
You do the Hokie-Pokie and you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about!

You put your lawyers in
You take your lawyers out
You join the ACC, and you shake it all about
You do the Hokie-Pokie and you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about!"


My apologies VT'ers, saw this one over on another board and it was too good to pass up. :)

[Marmel]

Interesting idea I heard thrown around.

If Miami rejects the ACC offer, the Big East schools would break off from the basketball only schools and form their own conference. Louisville is as close to a given in this situation as you can get. Tehn they will watch what happens to the ACC and possibly pick FSU/Clemson/GT up in the ensuing mess.

Interesting to note that UConn might not be included in this breakaway since they are not officially a Big East football team right now, and we know Miami and Donna S. would like nothing more than to keep her promise of never playing at the new UConn stadium.

[scooper]

Not bringin UConn in might seem like the thing to do now, but it could be a bad move down the road. Quality football programs are golden to conferences and UConn's headed in the right direction.

My prediction: When this whole mess clears up, there will be a lot of pride swallowed and some hatchets that will have to be burried.

[Marmel]

I agree with you scoop. I wouldn't bet a penny that UConn will be left out, but it might be nice to make them sweat it out. :)

Yes, their football is on the right track, but I am not nearly convinced they will be highly competative anytime soon. they may qualify for some low tier bowls after 3-5 years, but as far as ever challenging for a BCS spot. they are a long way away, even with the money CT is throwing into the program.

It takes a lot longer to build a football program than a basketball program. Just ask Rutgers..........they are still working on both programs. ;)

[scooper]

I think UConn has a shot at being competitive soon. They already started better than thought possible. And success breeds success. The UConn athletic department is used to winning on a large scale.

I guess it depends on the definition of competitive. I think a minor bowl within the next few years is possible. That to me is competitive.

[cuervo72]

Hmm, nobody associated Frank Beamer's chest pains with the ACC invite....

(Beamer, in his best Redd Foxx voice, clutching his chest)

"We're coming, Shalala. We're coming. Oh, we're coming to the ACC!"

[VPI97]

Originally posted by scooper
Not bringin UConn in might seem like the thing to do now, but it could be a bad move down the road. Miami will not be in a conference with UConn. There were a lot of hards words and accusations flying from Storrs to Miami and Shalala has vowed that Miami would never set foot in their new field.

Petty? sure. But UConn and Miami won't share a conference while Shalala is around.

[scooper]

Originally posted by VPI97
Miami will not be in a conference with UConn. There were a lot of hards words and accusations flying from Storrs to Miami and Shalala has vowed that Miami would never set foot in their new field.

Petty? sure. But UConn and Miami won't share a conference while Shalala is around.

Then they go to the ACC with the Hokies. Not many choices here.

[Marmel]

Not really scooper, as I said, the Big East football schools can break away from the Big East, and since UConn is not a Big East football school right now, they could be out of luck.

I disagree with VPI though, and I think if Miami decides to stay, UConn and Miami will kiss and make up....just enough to keep UConn on board.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by scooper
Then they go to the ACC with the Hokies. Not many choices here. I'm thinking they're going to do something along the lines of what Marmel posted. I also think that once Miami declines their ACC invite, VT's invite disappears.

[scooper]

After what's happened, the other BE schools aren't going to break away from UConn without having a major conference (such as VT with the ACC) to leverage the risk. Especially after some of them filed suit along side UConn.

Regardless of what Shalalalalalalala said about playing UConn, Miami's options are limited. ACC with VT or swallowing pride and heading back to the Big East.

[VPI97]

Well I was wrong about VT losing their invite....ugh, now I'm going to have to change my username. Is there a way to keep my postcount, though? :)

[ScottVib]

According to the various papers quoting "Big East Sources" UConn may be added to the Big East next season (2004) (a year early) to fill the void in the schedules caused by Virginia Tech, this would assume Tech left next season... (although Tech hasn't notified the Big East about when they are leaving (and are probably waiting to see what Miami does, so that the expansion doesn't happen one team one year, one team the next))

UConn will end up in whatever mess comes out of the Big East football conference, whether it remain under the Big East umbrella or under a new name.

Edit - If Miami rejects it and the ACC expands to 10 with only Virginia Tech... ACC Commish Swofford will lose his job. The Charlotte papers are saying his job is in trouble even if both teams accept the invites.

[SirFozzie]

Good. He's a lying cocksucker, and deserves to lose his job.

[SackAttack]

C'mon, Fozz, tell us how ya REALLY feel.

[SirFozzie]

Ok..

The ACC is a bunch of two-faced prats who talk out of their asses, bend to the slightest amount of pressure, and are so bent over for Miami right now they should ask Miami to use lube.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel


Yes, their football is on the right track, but I am not nearly convinced they will be highly competative anytime soon. they may qualify for some low tier bowls after 3-5 years, but as far as ever challenging for a BCS spot. they are a long way away, even with the money CT is throwing into the program.



Yeah Syracuse has been tremendous for a few years now. Why didn't they let Timmy Washington transfer to UConn? Bunch of orange pussies :).

[Marmel]

1 losing season 15 years and everybody jumps all over Syracuse. I guess success does breed jealousy. We are 1 year removed from a 10 win season with a bowl win over the Big12 as well.

I'll give you this, Coach P is not the man for the Syracuse football job. The sooner he is gone, the quick we can return to winning seasons.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Marmel
1 losing season 15 years and everybody jumps all over Syracuse. I guess success does breed jealousy. We are 1 year removed from a 10 win season with a bowl win over the Big12 as well.

I'll give you this, Coach P is not the man for the Syracuse football job. The sooner he is gone, the quick we can return to winning seasons.

You didn't want to touch Syracuse allowing Tim Washington to transfer to anywhere but Connecticut?

What do you Syracuse types thing of Edsall?

[digamma]

I'm a Georgia Tech fan, so I may be a bit biased, given Edsall was once our D-Coordinator, but I think he is a fantastic coach. I was very impressed with how Connecticut played last year, and not only with their improvement by the end of the season, but how they played up front as well. Even though the outcome of the Georgia Tech game was never in doubt, the Huskies played all 60 minutes. Given time, I think Edsall can put together a legitimate program in Storrs.

[Wolfpack]

Hey, VPI97. Welcome. Pardon the mess in the house. We've been trying to add a few more rooms, but a couple of people didn't want to do any work at all, bitching that the house was fine the way it was. Don't mind that maroon and gold paint job in your room. We'll have Miss Fox paint that over for you. ;)

[MylesKnight]

From the Miami Herald, Big East Counter-Proposal Article to the 'Canes (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/6189649.htm)..

Interesting.