Sounds like PC is still running amok...

[Ben E Lou]

So, were they supposed to do a musical "Visions of World War II" and just pretend that there was no such thing as Nazi Germany???? :confused:

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/30/band.nazi.reut/index.html)

DALLAS, Texas (Reuters) -- The Paris, Texas, school district apologized Tuesday for a performance by one of its marching bands which played an Adolf Hitler anthem and waved a Nazi flag during a football halftime show.

Band director Charles Grissom said the song and flag were part of a musical performance called "Visions of World War Two". It was performed at a Dallas high school Friday, which was also Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year and one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar.

"The performance is an attempt to factually portray the history of World War Two, triumph of good over evil, and to honor our veterans for their sacrifices in ensuring freedom throughout the world," Grissom said in a statement. He added later that he made a major mistake in judgment.

The performance was greeted by heavy boos at the Hillcrest High School in Dallas, and several objects were hurled at the band.

The show included the flags of other nations fighting in World War Two, such as France, Britain, the United States and Japan. The flags were waved twice as a musical selection from each country was played.

The Paris school district issued an apology to Hillcrest High and to the Dallas school district, said Paul Trull, the superintendent of Paris schools.

"We regret there was a misunderstanding. We strive to be sensitive to the feelings of others and are always willing to amend our actions when we fall short," Trull said.

The band will still perform the musical composition but it will only have the United States flag on display, he said.

Paris, Texas is located about 100 miles (160 km) northeast of Dallas.

[Subby]

Your post is anti-pc run amok. :)

To do something like that at all, but particularly at the start of Rosh Hashana, exhibits incredibly bad judgement.

Flags are more than just a piece of cloth with a symbol affixed...

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Subby
Flags are more than just a piece of cloth with a symbol affixed...

Tell that to flag burners. Not that I'm against one's right to burn a flag.

Or am I?

I'm like Ziggy Stardust, only politically.

[markprior22]

Things like this need to be taken in proper context...if it was a Nazi pep rally, that would be different. But a show based on WWII has to include Germany.

[scooper]

Fine, so play the beer barrell polka.

[ice4277]

Include Germany, but waving a Nazi flag on the Jewish New Year is pretty stupid. I hate most of the PC crap as much as the next guy (sorry, person for you PC'ers out there ;) ) but I think this crosses the line.

[KWhit]

And it was at a football halftime show. I don't know that that's the time to trot out a history lesson.

There's a frame of mind one has to be in when confronted with disturbing situations. You know when you walk into the movie Schindler's List that you should be prepared for this. At a football game? Not so much.

I'm sure that's one reason it got that kind of response.

[Bee]

It was at a halftime football game where they decided to do a "WWII show". That's a little different than this being done "at a show based on WWII". When you go to a football game, you don't expect a halftime show involving a Nazi flag and an Adolf Hitler anthem especially on Rosh Hashana.

Edit: crap, by the time I posted this several others already said the same thing. :D

[Ksyrup]

I guess I'd have to see it to understand it. I wonder what kind of an announcement, if any, was made beforehand, explaining what the show was. For every show I was ever involved in, someone would explain what it was about before we actually performed it - even if it was rather basic. I can't say we ever undertook a performance designed to "factually portray" an event like WWII. I think we did Gustav Holst's The Planets, which probably went over the heads of 99% of the audience, but then again, no one got PO'd by the Martian flag, either.

Here, it doesn't sound like the performance mirrored the intent of the music, which was to portray the "triumph of good over evil." They just waved a bunch of multi-national flags, like they were at a UN meeting or something. Without some sort of explanation, or better choreography to graphically illustrate who won, it probably looked pretty insensitive from the stands.

That's my over-analysis of the situation.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh....another example of the various networks' somewhat-slanted coverage. Here's the version on Fox News' web site. They choose to use the AP story, which includes a significant detail that Reuters chose not to mention. (I underlined it).

DALLAS — A high school band director has apologized for a halftime performance that included "Deutschland Uber Alles," the anthem closely associated with Adolf Hitler, and a student running across the field with a Nazi flag.

Charles Grissom, Paris High School's band director, said his intention was to have a historical performance featuring the flags and music of the nations that fought during World War II.

The show, titled "Visions of World War II," nearly caused a melee at Friday night's football game at Dallas' Hillcrest High School.

"We were booed," Grissom said Monday. "We had things thrown at us. We were cursed."

Paris' assistant coaches were even targeted as they made their way through the bleachers to a press box after halftime.

"The assistant coaches ... got blasted, cursed," said Brent Southworth, Paris' head football coach.

Grissom said he never intended to offend anyone, and he apologized repeatedly.

"We had an error in judgment," Grissom told The Dallas Morning News in an interview published Tuesday. "Our intent was never to cause any harm."

The show was performed in Paris, about 100 miles northeast of Dallas, a week earlier after the homecoming game against Athens.

The band, which began working on the show in August, planned to perform it at the University Interscholastic League contest Oct. 15.

The show also includes the flags and music of France, Britain, Japan and the United States. The flags were raised in intervals that corresponded with the music of the nations. An announcement over loudspeakers before the performance explained the school was trying to do a "historical, accurate depiction of the event."

Mark Briskman, regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, said his organization received many calls and e-mails expressing shock "that in 2003, this type of insensitivity would occur."

"This can serve as an educational tool that there are certain tools and certain symbols that still carry ... an amount of hurt," Briskman said. "It was a mistake, and they've apologized for it, and we basically accept their apology."FWIW, unless there's a high school band director hanging around this message board, I'm guessing that I've seen more high school band shows than virtually anyone around here. (4 years of high school plus 15 years of youth ministry times 10-13 games per year..geez that's a lot...) A historically-themed band performance isn't that unusual, although I'll freely admit that I've never seen a WW2-based show.

That flag didn't kill 6 million Jews. Hitler and his henchmen did. The Nazi flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Nazi flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.

[Buzzbee]

Hmmm....based on the title of the thread, I thought SkyDog's laptop was out looking for his paper. :D

In regard to the use of the Nazi flag, no it did't kill 6 million jews, but the country, and movement it symbolizes did. So I can see where people would be offended. The Georgia state flag didn't kill anyone, but it is still an issue to many.

In my opinion, the use of the flag is appropriate for the theme of the show. However, because of the attrocities the flag represents it should have been held in a lower position, or somehow subdued to show respect for those killed and disdain for what it stands for.

I agree with SkyDog that people today are just looking for things to be offended by, but realize that certain things that don't offend me, may offend others.

{Edit: I said the use of the flag was appropriate. I should correct that. It MAY have been appropriate. Was their a flag representing the Allies to counter the Nazi flag? Or, was the Nazi flag "substituted" for the German flag of the time? Or WAS that the German flag of the time? I'm not too astute on historical flags. Or current ones for that matter.}

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by SkyDog
That flag didn't kill 6 million Jews. Hitler and his henchmen did. The Nazi flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Nazi flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.

Or to take it a step further:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.


If I remember correctly, you are against all the Georgia flag non-sense, so I'm not trying to call you out on that. Just trying to shed a different light.

[Critch]

Deutschland Uber Alles is still the German national anthem, so calling it an Adolf Hitler anthem is pushing it. All that's changed since the war is that a couple of the verses have been dropped, so unless the band were actually singing the banned verses all they were doing was playing the German National Anthem.

Waving the flag was going a bit too far for me, though.

[Butter]

Hey, you all may think this is PC bullshit, but apparently the vast majority of the crowd at the game doesn't agree. Nobody stopped the guy from waving the flag, but neither did anyone stop the crowd from responding. So what's the problem here?

Marginally related thought: Am I the only one who still finds it amusing that the Ole Miss mascot is an old Southern Rebel, who leads out a racially mixed football team? That made me laugh out loud when I saw that a couple weeks ago.

[Easy Mac]

How is playing music and showing a flag an "accurate" depiction of WWII? Did the British, French, and American flags beat up the German and Japanese flags? If they wanted to do an "accurate" depiction, they could have tried harder than running a Nazi flag across the field. And wouldn't it have been better to have maybe a USSR flag in there?

I guess its ok for a school to play Civil War anthems and run around with Confederate flags on Martin Luther King Jr. birthday?

[Ben E Lou]

Butter:

The crowd reaction isn't an appropriate gauge. It was a road crowd. I've seen several road crowds boo the band for FAR less than this one...

Buzz:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.Well, that paragraph describes pretty much exactly my feelings about the rebel flag as well.

[Butter]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Butter:

The crowd reaction isn't an appropriate gauge. It was a road crowd. I've seen several road crowds boo the band for FAR less than this one...

So what? Are we arguing whether this is a news-worthy event? Or arguing whether or not the crowd was booing the use of the Nazi flag? Or whether the Nazi flag's use was inappropriate on a Jewish holiday? I fail to see why you felt the need to post this as reflective of a PC society-run-amok when there is very little going on here. If I ran around with a Nazi T-shirt on, I wonder how long it would take before I got my ass kicked.

A far more interesting topic here would be how many of you who view this as PC-run-amok are against flag-burning? Why?

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
How is playing music and showing a flag an "accurate" depiction of WWII? Did the British, French, and American flags beat up the German and Japanese flags? If they wanted to do an "accurate" depiction, they could have tried harder than running a Nazi flag across the field. And wouldn't it have been better to have maybe a USSR flag in there?

Or, did the Japanese flag-bearer run up from behind the US flag-bearer and smack her in the head?

Again, in order to "accurately depict" an event, you have to do more than wave a flag. There has to be some sort of symbolism represented by the movement or positioning of the flags, I believe. Simply running a bunch of national flags out in a "Chorus Line"-type move is hardly depicting the rise and fall of the Nazis during WWII.

I just feel sorry for the girl who drew the short straw and had to carry that flag.

[Ben E Lou]

Hey, you all may think this is PC bullshit, but apparently the vast majority of the crowd at the game doesn't agree.

Butter, I was simply responding to the above. You brought up the crowd response, not me.

[Esquared1]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Or to take it a step further:

That flag didn't enslave 6 million blacks. Plantation owners and thier henchmen did. The Rebel flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Rebel flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.


If I remember correctly, you are against all the Georgia flag non-sense, so I'm not trying to call you out on that. Just trying to shed a different light.

Good. Since these flags are nothing more than pieces of cloth that caused no harm, then I can freely crap on the American flag and burn it anytime I want. I'm glad I can now freely do this when I'm not happy with our government's direction.

That is my different light to your different light. :)

[Butter]

Actually, you brought this whole thing up, SkyDog, but whatever.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Esquared1
Good. Since these flags are nothing more than pieces of cloth in that caused no harm, then I can freely crap on the American flag and burn it anytime I want. I'm glad I can now freely do this when I'm not happy with our government's direction.

That is my different light to your different light. :)

And the first admendment gives you every right.

[EagleFan]

It was a freaking band performance. People get upset over the dumbest things anymore. It wasn't like they came out and did that song only and only carried the nazi flag, that would be a lot more disturbing. There was no endorsement of what the nazis did. As for the timing of it, most likely purely coincidental.

People need to stop twisting every little thing into something major.

As far as 'acurately depicting' an event? It's a freaking band performance, not a theatrical review. Get over it.

[Easy Mac]

well, when "accurate depiction" is the main line underlined in order to justify presenting the flag, it does matter.

So theoretically, I can do a band performance and carry around an American flag and a flag with a Taliban symbol on it. No one can complain, correct?

[EagleFan]

Sure thing, if that's what you want to do.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
well, when "accurate depiction" is the main line underlined in order to justify presenting the flag, it does matter.

So theoretically, I can do a band performance and carry around an American flag and a flag with a Taliban symbol on it. No one can complain, correct?


Why in the heck couldn't you? Unless your calling for the glory of the Taliban, then maybe you'd have a problem.

[Easy Mac]

And therfore no one can complain, beause that is the main argument of the "PC run-amok," since no one was arrested, suspended or expelled.

Of course, by the definition used here, Philadelphia fans booing McNabb means they are being too PC.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
And therfore no one can complain, beause that is the main argument of the "PC run-amok," since no one was arrested, suspended or expelled.

Of course, by the definition used here, Philadelphia fans booing McNabb means they are being too PC.

?

This is an example of "PC run amok" because this guy was forced to appologize in hopes of saving his job. Why? Because he was silly enough to think people are intellegent enough to recognize that having a Nazi flag in the midst of a recreaction of WW2 was not showing support to the Nazi's.

[Easy Mac]

how is it a recreation of WW2?

Did they have guns and tanks on the field?

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
how is it a recreation of WW2?

Did they have guns and tanks on the field?

Musical recreations like this happens all the time. Ever been to the symphony? You recreate a historical even in music. That is all this was.

[Ksyrup]

I was in band in high school. I was in these halftime shows. Do you know how many people pay attention to what the band is doing (or the announcer says) as the 1st half ends and people are running to see their friends, go to the bathroom, and grab a drink? Pretty much no one except the band kids' parents, who likely already know what's going on. All these people saw was a bunch of nation's flags on the field, including the Nazi flag.

Bottom line: I think this was a perfectly acceptable performance to use at a band competition, but a really, really bad choice for a football game's halftime show. We had separate performances we did for games, and others that we used in competitions. Given the complexities involved in the scenario they were trying to depict, this was a bad choice. I think this is more that issue than a PC issue. This was not the type of crowd one should expect to understand such a performance.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Musical recreations like this happens all the time. Ever been to the symphony? You recreate a historical even in music. That is all this was.

Ever seen a symphonic recretation of an historical event at a football game?

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Ever seen a symphonic recretation of an historical event at a football game?

I've heard bands attempt many crazy things. Rockdale hosts a band competion every year. You see all sorts of things.

[GrantDawg]

Dola: Look at about all of Sousa's works. Many of them are historical recreations or rememberances.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Bottom line: I think this was a perfectly acceptable performance to use at a band competition, but a really, really bad choice for a football game's halftime show. We had separate performances we did for games, and others that we used in competitions. Given the complexities involved in the scenario they were trying to depict, this was a bad choice. I think this is more that issue than a PC issue. This was not the type of crowd one should expect to understand such a performance.

I agree. It was probably an interesting performance. Better than the typical mindless Sousa marches that are played 10000 times. But at a football halftime show? I don't think that's the right audience for it.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I've heard bands attempt many crazy things. Rockdale hosts a band competion every year. You see all sorts of things.

A band competition - at least the kind I am familiar with - are for band audiences. Kind of like those cheerleader competitions they show at 3am on ESPN2. Not exactly the same as a football crowd, which is not there to see the bands perform.

Now, there are some band competitions that are designed for football-type crowds. FAMU here in Tally has a world-famous band. But they aren't exactly recreating WWII with their performances. What was that movie - Drumline? Those are not the same type of competitions.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Dola: Look at about all of Sousa's works. Many of them are historical recreations or rememberances.

Yes, but they also are simply marches in and of themselves, and performed that way. They aren't necessarily strung together with other pieces to create some sort of flowing, depiction of an event, per se. When they are used in band performances (and we used them all of the time), they were for the type of piece they were (a march) rather than for what that particular march might be representing. A march is ordinarily added to a band performance to provide a contrast to the other music.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
A band competition - at least the kind I am familiar with - are for band audiences. Kind of like those cheerleader competitions they show at 3am on ESPN2. Not exactly the same as a football crowd, which is not there to see the bands perform.

Now, there are some band competitions that are designed for football-type crowds. FAMU here in Tally has a world-famous band. But they aren't exactly recreating WWII with their performances. What was that movie - Drumline? Those are not the same type of competitions.

According to the article, this march was created for a band competition. They decided to do it as a live practice at a football game. Now I agree that they should have done it at home (and maybe this was to involved for a half-time show) but why is it not offensive at a band competition and it is offensive at a football halftime? I still think this is people blowing things out of proportion.

[Ksyrup]

And while we're on the subject of bands, this gives me an excuse to use my favorite marching band phrase of all time:

Company Front. Also known as the Frumpity Cunt among guys in band.

Yes, we were geeks.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Yes, but they also are simply marches in and of themselves, and performed that way. They aren't necessarily strung together with other pieces to create some sort of flowing, depiction of an event, per se. When they are used in band performances (and we used them all of the time), they were for the type of piece they were (a march) rather than for what that particular march might be representing. A march is ordinarily added to a band performance to provide a contrast to the other music.

But it is not uncommon to add theatrical emphasis to those marches, whether it be with the dance line, gun corp, or the majorettes (or even huge scene boards. Rockdale's band last year had an entire stage set up). Using flags of different nations again is not uncommon. All this was was using the flags of the nations of WW2. Not that big a leap.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
According to the article, this march was created for a band competition. They decided to do it as a live practice at a football game. Now I agree that they should have done it at home (and maybe this was to involved for a half-time show) but why is it not offensive at a band competition and it is offensive at a football halftime? I still think this is people blowing things out of proportion.

I'm not suggesting it was offensive at all. I'm suggesting that the audience to which it was presented was not the kind which could understand the performance for what it was. Most people who attend a band competition are likely to (a) either understand the performance in context, or (b) if they don't understand it, will likely take the time to understand it. People at a high school football game don't give a crap, until something that appears offensive crosses their sight line. And that was reasonably foreseeable, in my estimation, given the subject matter. that's all I'm saying with any of this.

Having said all of that, I clearly sympathize with the fact that they were simply looking to do a live practice to get ready for the competition. You practice on an empty field all you want, but nothing's quite like the real thing in front of hundreds (or thousands) of people.

[cuervo72]

Could they not have used the current German flag? Not as historically correct, but a little more sensitive perhaps?

[GrantDawg]

And I agree this was pretty amibitous for an away game. I don't know if anyone could have forseen this becoming a national news story or even people being dim-witted enough at the game to think they were somehow glorifing nazi's. Notice this line from an article on this:

Mark Briskman, regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, said his organization received many calls and e-mails expressing shock "that in 2003, this type of insensitivity would occur."

"This can serve as an educational tool that there are certain tools and certain symbols that still carry ... an amount of hurt," Briskman said. "It was a mistake, and they've apologized for it, and we basically accept their apology."

By this guys statement, if you did a movie on WW2 and you showed a Nazi flag, then your being "insentive." That my friends is PC running amok.

[Ksyrup]

I don't disagree with you on that point.

[Butter]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
By this guys statement, if you did a movie on WW2 and you showed a Nazi flag, then your being "insentive." That my friends is PC running amok.

"The Believer" and "American History X" are both good examples of films that use the Nazi symbol. I believe that the Indiana Jones series also showcases Nazis and their symbol. I don't believe that anyone called for the removal of the symbol from these films. But they did find it offensive when the symbol was used in a forum where it wouldn't normally be expected. I fail to see how this is PC running amok. Maybe you think it is, because anyone who is ever offended now is considered a PC nazi (ironic, yes?), but I don't think it is.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
"The Believer" and "American History X" are both good examples of films that use the Nazi symbol. I believe that the Indiana Jones series also showcases Nazis and their symbol. I don't believe that anyone called for the removal of the symbol from these films. But they did find it offensive when the symbol was used in a forum where it wouldn't normally be expected. I fail to see how this is PC running amok. Maybe you think it is, because anyone who is ever offended now is considered a PC nazi (ironic, yes?), but I don't think it is.

Butter, there were protest against "American History X." There were protest against the recent "Hitler" mini-series. I'm not someone who thinks everytime someone is offended they are being too "PC." I do think this is made into a big deal because of people being too PC.

[clintl]

I don't think this is PC running amok. People are essentially trained to pick up the context of such symbols in movies, plays, etc. Nobody is going to be upset by the use of Nazi symbols in the Indiana Jones movies because the Nazis were the bad guys (unless, of course, you are a Nazi and believe you are the one being defamed).

I don't think that's true with a halftime musical performance at a football game. Without having seen the actual performance, it's impossible to tell how the average person would have interpreted it. But I suspect that this was an audience not prepared to pick up the subtleties necessary to appreciate the intent behind the performance.

[MJ4H]

Originally posted by SkyDog

FWIW, unless there's a high school band director hanging around this message board, I'm guessing that I've seen more high school band shows than virtually anyone around here.

Ahem. :)

(I'm a high school band director)

Oh, and I see these types of shows all the time. The most recent I've seen was a band in Missouri do a civil war themed show. I don't remember any PC issues with that one. My guess is the flags were probably an "audience aid"-- to help the audience keep up with the themes of the show. It was probably possible to understand the show without the flags, but the flags merely signified important events that were also being portrayed musically (which the average football fan would either need help interpreting or would need to be concentrating extra-hard :) )

Anyway, I can certainly see the band director's view on this, as he was trying to do an artistic show and help the audience understand it. Tons of high school bands across the country are good enough to do actual artistic shows instead of just play Louie Louie and Land of 1000 Dances at halftime and call it good. I don't have a problem with this show concept, nor with the waving of the flag. I can see it stepping on some toes, but I think it seems a little narrow to get upset about it. I mean, they lose in the end, right? :)

I agree that this is on the over-PC end of the spectrum and understand that others may disagree.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Hmmm....based on the title of the thread, I thought SkyDog's laptop was out looking for his paper. :D


that one had me laughing fairly hard just now :)

[Mustang]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Could they not have used the current German flag? Not as historically correct, but a little more sensitive perhaps?

I'm against changing historical facts to make it more sensitive. Plus, the average person probably would start associating the current German flag as being used by the Nazi regime in WWII...

Although.. I wonder if they used the current U.S flag for that time period?...

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by SkyDog
That flag didn't kill 6 million Jews. Hitler and his henchmen did. The Nazi flag is not inherently evil when used simply to portray a part of history. It is one thing to wave a Nazi flag in support of what the flag represented. It is quite another to wave it as part of a historical show.


This is where I fall on this case. I don't see anything wrong with it. Oh and for the "how dare they do this on the Jewish new year" crowd, did you know it was the Jewish New Year? I think people have the responsibility to not be offended by everything that might be construed as offensive to them.

That said, a good friend of mine, pretty much a political moderate that leans to the left, felt this was an absolutely reprehensible act. His whole point was that the Swastika "today" stands for racial hatred and bigotry, and the band director should have known that waving one around was going to cause a reaction. He said they should have anticipated this, and used a different German flag, not the one that was historically used during WWII.

This is too awfully close to the laws in Germany, and I think other european countries, that outlaw the display of the swastika. I dont' think you can say that just because a nazi flag was displayed/carted around the field that the band was somehow endorsing what it stands for today. I think the whole context of the presentation needs to be taken into consideration.

I saw that this was the second time they performed this act before a crowd, and the first time it became an issue. My guess is the first performance was at home, and the second "on the road".

[Wolfpack]

In somewhat of a parallel, on a discussion board populated by wargamers, I remember raging debates as what color scheme and symbology was appropriate to represent the Germans in during replays of World War II. To some, it was just cardboard and meant nothing, while others were distinctly uncomfortable knowing that symbolically the cardboard represented a side that caused such great destruction and evil during its time on Earth, regardless of the fact that the soldiers fighting in the battles being recreated were just that, soldiers. The SS and their representation in such games is a very touchy subject.

As to this event, I'm pretty anti-PC, but even I find this just a very bad idea. I'm curious as to whether the Nazi flag was a full-blown swastika or whether it was another, slightly less offensive symbol of the regime. An example would be a black cross on a red background. Perhaps the disclaimer should have been more forceful about the content and offered an apology in advance for any offense taken.

Even so, why would you want to represent all the sides? Heck, having the Japanese flag and anthem played should have roiled some bitterness in those who fought in the Pacific during World War II. IMO, perhaps it should have been Souza marches and such as they "described" American and British involvement in the war. (Yes, leaving out the Soviets is intentional with what we know of Stalin, who was pretty much the butcher Hitler was but on the other end of the spectrum politically.)

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Mustang
I'm against changing historical facts to make it more sensitive. Plus, the average person probably would start associating the current German flag as being used by the Nazi regime in WWII...

Although.. I wonder if they used the current U.S flag for that time period?...

I generally agree with you on that point. And I have to say that I personally wouldn't have been offended by it, but would have understood that doing what they did would ruffle some feathers.

I wondered if they used the version of the Japanese flag with the sun rays (I don't know if that was the official version at the time or not).

Imagine if they would have actually made a band formation in the shape of a swastika... :eek:

[Fritz]

I think the reaction people have to the Nazi flag and symbols is excessively dramatic given the way people react to other symbols.

[Mustang]

Originally posted by cuervo72

Imagine if they would have actually made a band formation in the shape of a swastika... :eek:

Then maybe the entire band could have goose-stepped around in a circle.

:eek:

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Hmmm....based on the title of the thread, I thought SkyDog's laptop was out looking for his paper. ;)



Originally posted by McSweeny
that one had me laughing fairly hard just now :)

Thanks McSweeny. I thought that little jewel had gotten lost in the shuffle. Glad it made you chuckle.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I think people have the responsibility to not be offended by everything that might be construed as offensive to them.


I think this might be the funniest statement in the whole thread. :D

[The Afoci]

I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been brought up.

What would the reaction on MLK Day be if someone had a KKK rememberence festival?

[Bee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been brought up.

What would the reaction on MLK Day be if someone had a KKK rememberence festival?

Would that also be performed by a high school band?

[Butter]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Butter, there were protest against "American History X." There were protest against the recent "Hitler" mini-series. I'm not someone who thinks everytime someone is offended they are being too "PC." I do think this is made into a big deal because of people being too PC.

I don't think this is being made into a big deal at all. I would never have heard of it if not for SkyDog. And I don't recall any protests over American History X, but then I try to avoid most newscasts.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Bee
Would that also be performed by a high school band?

Sure, instead of WWII, make it all about civil rights and have the trumpet guy dressed as a cop hosing down some people for added effect.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been brought up.

What would the reaction on MLK Day be if someone had a KKK rememberence festival?

I'm not sure, but I don't think that would be a valid comparison. I contend that there is a significantly higher ratio of - people who are not black and are aware when it is MLKJ day - compared to - people who are not Jewish and are aware when it is the Jewish New Year.

As a result, it is more likely that there would be a greater reaction simply because of awareness. I think that the fact that it was on the Jewish New Year was just happenstance. Given that High School football games are played only on select weekends during the year and that the Jewish New Year falls during this time of year, I don't think it is that incredulous.

[GrantDawg]

So, remembering WW2 is equal to remembering the KKK?

[Butter]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
So, remembering WW2 is equal to remembering the KKK?

If we take 1 thing away from this thread, this should be it....

[Ben E Lou]

Dang...been at a visitation/funeral/reception for the last 4 hours or so, and missed all the fun. A few more thoughts...

1. MattJones made a point that I thought of in the car. I would have recognized "God Save The Queen," but none of the other anthems. Displaying a flag at the time of each anthem is a simple, logical way to aid the audience (but of course the uproar is probably about emotion, not logic....)

2. It definitely varies from situation to situation, but I know you can't make a blanket statement that no one was paying attention to the announcer. The Tucker band has 10ish baton twirlers, 10ish flag girls, 30ish drill team members, and a full security detail that travels with them. It is a huge production and very few people (kids or adults) leave their seats until after the band is done. (I FREELY admit that this varies from place to place, but someone made a blanket statement that no one was paying attention to the announcement. I submit this example merely to point out that we really can't say that for sure.)

3. There is VERY little chance that the crowd made any connection with Rosh Hashanah. Think about it. It was on Rosh Hashanah. No one Jewish was at the game, and let's be honest: this wasn't a holiday that is on a lot of radar screens, particularly in Texas. :p The reaction wasn't enhance by Rosh Hashanah. This was an emotion-based reaction to the bad guys' band showing a symbol associated with evil actions.

4. I can't resist responding to this bit of fallacy: I don't think this is being made into a big deal at all. I would never have heard of it if not for SkyDog. And I don't recall any protests over American History X, but then I try to avoid most newscasts.Well if you avoid most newscasts, then of COURSE you wouldn't have heard of it without me bringing it up then!!!! Sheesh.

5. (further on the point above) I don't comb every nook and cranny of CNN.com in the mornings. I usually read the big bold headline story, and then scan the "more top stories" (there are usually around 6 of these...) for anything that looks interesting. At the time, it was in CNN's "other top stories," meaning at least they considered it to be one of the most important stories in the world right now.

6. Some of y'all are being overbearing on the whole "historical representation" thing. This is the high school band, not a professional drama troup. If they simply played the national anthems of some/all of the major players and displayed the flags at the right time for clarification, that's probably as much as most high school bands are going to do. Hey, you got the flags in the right order and the music sounded authentic. Good job kids. To expect one flag to attack another or something is more than is reasonable.

7. MattJones...somehow I KNEW there had to be one out there. That's why I qualified my statement. ;) Upon further review though, I still might have more halftime shows seen though. How long you been at it?

[Butter]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Well if you avoid most newscasts, then of COURSE you wouldn't have heard of it without me bringing it up then!!!! Sheesh.

What part of "most" do you have trouble comprehending? SHEESH.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
What part of "most" do you have trouble comprehending? SHEESH. That's not the point, and you know it. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You're claiming to know that it isn't a big deal, but also claiming you don't pay much attention to the news...

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
So, remembering WW2 is equal to remembering the KKK?

No.
Civil rights movement = WWII.

KKK = Nazi.

Who says you will never use discrete math in real life.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
No.
Civil rights movement = WWII.

Who says you will never use discrete math in real life.

Ummm...looks more like fuzzy math to me. I never realized that World War II was equal to the Civil Rights movement.

Who drove the tanks for the "coloreds"? And what countries did they invade?

[The Afoci]

I am not equating the Civil Rights movement to WWII in importance. All I am saying is that Nazi Flags on Jewish New Year can be just as disturbing as KKK outfits on MLK day no matter the event they are in.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Who drove the tanks for the "coloreds"? And what countries did they invade?

I think his name was Jim and they invaded Georgia. Going off my extensive knowledge of US history, they weren't a state until the mid 80's so everything fits together perfect in my world.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I am not equating the Civil Rights movement to WWII in importance. All I am saying is that Nazi Flags on Jewish New Year can be just as disturbing as KKK outfits on MLK day no matter the event they are in.

And our point is that, for those who are offended, Nazi Flags on any day of the year can be just as disturbing as Nazi Flags on the Jewish New Year, no matter the event they are in.


{EDIT: And if you are not equating the Civil Rights Movement to WWII in importance, don't post

Civil Rights Movement = WWII}

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
And our point is that, for those who are offended, Nazi Flags on any day of the year can be just as disturbing as Nazi Flags on the Jewish New Year, no matter the event they are in. Correct. As I said above, I have serious doubts that the crowd was further inflamed because of Rosh Hashanah.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I think his name was Jim and they invaded Georgia. Going off my extensive knowledge of US history, they weren't a state until the mid 80's so everything fits together perfect in my world.

Actually I think his name was Uncle Tom or Kunte Kinte. I'm fuzzy on my Georgia invasion history. ;)

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Actually I think his name was Uncle Tom or Kunte Kinte. I'm fuzzy on my Georgia invasion history. ;)

a man after my own heart there buzzbee. when a serious topic comes up, just start making jokes :D

[WSUCougar]

I think this is a matter of tact and lack of sensitivity, rather than political correctness. Despite the arguments I’ve read in this thread, I feel that playing “Deutschland Uber Alles” (in this context, it matters little whether it’s the German national anthem or not) and waving the national flag of the 3rd Reich is grossly inappropriate. If I understand the scenario correctly, it puts Nazi Germany (and Imperial Japan) on the same level with the other combatants, like some kind of World Cup grouping rather than the instigators of the bloodiest conflict in the history of the world. By no means is this appropriate – these were totalitarian, oppressive, murderous, and violently aggressive regimes. They were not just participants.

The fact that it occurred on Rosh Hashana was indeed coincidental, I’m sure, yet it serves to add glaring emphasis to the tactlessness of the production.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Buzzbee

{EDIT: And if you are not equating the Civil Rights Movement to WWII in importance, don't post

Civil Rights Movement = WWII}


I was attempting to use an analogy. I guess no one else caught on.

[MJ4H]

Originally posted by SkyDog


7. MattJones...somehow I KNEW there had to be one out there. That's why I qualified my statement. ;) Upon further review though, I still might have more halftime shows seen though. How long you been at it?

Well this is my fifth year of band directing, but I can almost guarantee having seen more halftime shows -- probably just in those 5 years. I also design my own. I probably watch 50-60 different halftime shows each YEAR (there are tons of contests in this area, and I try to go to as many of them as I can -- even adjudicate). I did college marching band for 6 years, HS/JH for 5, during which time I saw many more. Of course, in college I was required to take courses on halftime drill design as well.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by MattJones4Heisman
I probably watch 50-60 different halftime shows each YEAR (there are tons of contests in this area, and I try to go to as many of them as I can -- even adjudicate).Yowza! Methinks ya got me beat. I'm guessing I've seen around 200 high school halftime shows since I started HS. (I'm not counting the 50+ I didn't pay much attention to when my dad used to take me to HS games when I was younger.)

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Bee
I think this might be the funniest statement in the whole thread. :D

When you quote it like that, it is pretty funny. In my mind I was putting the emphasis on EVERYTHING, but I think the point I was trying to make is that people have the responsibility to be thicker skinned when it comes to things like this.

I don't think the fault lies entirely with the band program, I think some of the fault lies with the people who put the performance in the worst possible context.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by WSUCougar
I think this is a matter of tact and lack of sensitivity, rather than political correctness. Despite the arguments I’ve read in this thread, I feel that playing “Deutschland Uber Alles” (in this context, it matters little whether it’s the German national anthem or not) and waving the national flag of the 3rd Reich is grossly inappropriate. If I understand the scenario correctly, it puts Nazi Germany (and Imperial Japan) on the same level with the other combatants, like some kind of World Cup grouping rather than the instigators of the bloodiest conflict in the history of the world. By no means is this appropriate – these were totalitarian, oppressive, murderous, and violently aggressive regimes. They were not just participants.

The fact that it occurred on Rosh Hashana was indeed coincidental, I’m sure, yet it serves to add glaring emphasis to the tactlessness of the production.

Whereas playing the national anthems of Japan or Russia (or several other European nations) would be okay because we are just peeved about german genocide, right?

[Easy Mac]

so where does the line between PC and people getting pissed off blur? If something upsets me, I'll let people know it. Does that mean its PC run amok?

Here's an analogy (always preface Afoci... sorry, I don't use articles prior to names):

Say I'm a fan of a sports team. The coach makes a playcall he thinks will be good, but it totally backfires. If I boo, am I being PC?

And do you really expect people to not boo and get offended by a symbol of such hatred? Should they have loudly cheered the band for waving a flag that symbolizes everything that has ever been wrong with the world? The flag itself may have no meaning, but the people behind the flag made it what it is.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Without some sort of explanation, or better choreography to graphically illustrate who won, it probably looked pretty insensitive from the stands.


You know, not exactly on topic but if you have to better graphically illustrate who won WWII then your school district has far more serious problems than the bands half time show. :D

[Axxon]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been brought up.

What would the reaction on MLK Day be if someone had a KKK rememberence festival?

Well this wasn't a nazi rememberance festival so I don't think the comparison is valid. I'd say the civil war theme is a more valid comparison and should be way more divisive here but I somehow doubt it would.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
so where does the line between PC and people getting pissed off blur? If something upsets me, I'll let people know it. Does that mean its PC run amok?

Here's an analogy (always preface Afoci... sorry, I don't use articles prior to names):

Say I'm a fan of a sports team. The coach makes a playcall he thinks will be good, but it totally backfires. If I boo, am I being PC?

And do you really expect people to not boo and get offended by a symbol of such hatred? Should they have loudly cheered the band for waving a flag that symbolizes everything that has ever been wrong with the world? The flag itself may have no meaning, but the people behind the flag made it what it is. OF course if you boo a coach that isn't being PC. It would be one thing if they "Got into the show" by booing the Nazis and cheering the good ol' USA. That's (apparently) not what happened. These people booed the very fact that they used the German flag, and then threw things at the band and cursed the coaches. They didn't use any logic at all. It was as if they were saying, "remember WW2 all you want, but no mentioning the Germans." THAT is what is PC about this. Frankly, I think you're smart enough to see that difference, but your habit of automatically taking the most liberal position you can on any issue is clouding your intelligence on this one Easy.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Axxon
You know, not exactly on topic but if you have to better graphically illustrate who won WWII then your school district has far more serious problems than the bands half time show. :D LOL. Actually that's a good point. We're not talking about an attempt at the "revisionist" history presentation at the Stone Mountain laser show. (In case you don't know about that one, here's the deal. A rebel soldier, I think representing Robert E. Lee, looks over the graves and battlefield dead sadly, then takes out his sword and breaks it in two, and the map of the states, that had been divided into two, comes back together into one. It is as if the Confederate army honorably decided to end the death and division because they couldn't bear to see any more Americans die. :rolleyes: ) We all know the outcome of this one.

[Easy Mac]

They used the [i]Nazi flag[i]. The people have a right to react how they want if something upsets them enough. This seems to be the vital point you are overlooking. When is it ok to people to voice displeasure about an event's proceedings, when it has a liberal slant?

So please, use you intelligence occassionally mr Pot.

[Bee]

The whole concept was a little idiotic considering the football crowd audience, the fact it was at another school and the actual day it was being performed. I'm one that generally thinks our society is way too PC, but this just doesn't smack of that to me. Not every overreaction is because of people being too PC. It was at a football game where emotions are pretty high. The 'enemy" band comes out waving a Nazi flag (in addition to others) at the mid point of the game. Is anyone really surprised the crowd overreacted? Shouldn't the band director think about the reactions he might get from the crowd? I'm sorry, but a Nazi flag isn't commonly used at football games I've been to. I think if you are going to use one especially at another school, you should consider what type of reaction you might get from a football crowd. I think the crowd overreacted too. I credit that overreaction to emotion and shock of seeing a despised symbol being waved by the opposing teams band. It doesn't justify it, but I understand it.

The show would have been perfectly fine at a band competition where the crowd wouldn't be so emotional and would be more neutral. Because of that, I don't see this as being a PC issue but more of an emotion driven issue. If the school were trying to outlaw the use of the Nazi flag in any future productions, that would be PC IMO.

The media definitely overreacted as well IMO. They're trying to sell papers and will portray it anyway they can to generate interest and emotions from the reader (which reading this thread, they seemed to have succeeded).

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Bee

The media definitely overreacted as well IMO. They're trying to sell papers and will portray it anyway they can to generate interest and emotions from the reader (which reading this thread, they seemed to have succeeded).

This is the "PC" problem here. I don't really care what the crowd reaction was. It is the tar-and-feathering coming from the media and groups like the anti-defamation league that gets this labeled as "too PC." Booing the opposing band at a football game is dumb (they couldn't see the Japenese and American flag out there and figure out this was about WW2? That's pretty dim), but not PC.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
They used the [i]Nazi flag[i]. The people have a right to react how they want if something upsets them enough.Of course they do. My point is that their reaction was illogical, and that the media's response is illogical, and that political correctness is the primary reason for that lack of logic. (Of course, that's redundant. Lack of logic and PC do go hand-in-hand...)

[Axxon]

Originally posted by SkyDog
LOL. Actually that's a good point. We're not talking about an attempt at the "revisionist" history presentation at the Stone Mountain laser show. (In case you don't know about that one, here's the deal. A rebel soldier, I think representing Robert E. Lee, looks over the graves and battlefield dead sadly, then takes out his sword and breaks it in two, and the map of the states, that had been divided into two, comes back together into one. It is as if the Confederate army honorably decided to end the death and division because they couldn't bear to see any more Americans die. :rolleyes: ) We all know the outcome of this one.

Well, yeah, that's not representative of the confederate position to be sure. Still, if it was Robert E Lee, I'm not so sure that it wouldn't have been his dearest wish. Same with a whole lot of the generals on both sides. Sherman, who is still hated in these parts actually offered surrender terms so generous that Lincoln had to override him. The country squandered a lot of good men fighting the good fight that they never should have NEEDED to fight. I blame the politicians not the generals.

Grant, Sherman, Lee, I have a strange collection of heros no? Still, I really didn't have a dog in the fight; my family was still in Spain. I'm supremely pleased with the results but deeply saddened that it got that far.

The one guy I really hate is John Wilkes Booth, as should any american but my best friend is a distant cousin of the traitor. He is a dead ringer in looks too. Yikes. Most of us really don't know what Booth looks like but one day I was flipping through a Catton coffee table book and I see a huge picture of my best friend, I mean Booth. I covered the caption and showed the book to my mom and asked her who that was and she said "Milo" and I uncovered the caption and she said "damn."

Not really important but an eery coincidence. By the way, I don't think Milo takes after his distant look alike. Not much anyway. :D

Now, a stupid story. I have another friend who isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. When I was still working air traffic in California I decided to have him come visit me for a while. We basically drove from Tampa to Los Angeles; it was a blast. When we went through Mississipi we passed the Jefferson Davis house.

We wanted to tour it but it was closed. We kinda scouted the grounds a bit but that was it. It was a beautiful property and I really would have liked to see it but no dice.

Anyway flash forward to LA. First night in town we're out on the town and we meet this black guy who is from Mississippi. We're talking, having fun and the guy mentions where he's from.

My buddy says, "oh, we went through Mississippi. We almost stopped at the Jefferson Davis house but it was closed. Have you ever been to the Jefferson Davis house?"

The guy looked at him like he was a mutant which isn't far from the truth.

I said, "dude, I doubt this guy really gives a rats ass about Jeff Davis' house."

My bud looks at me without comprehension and I add "unless he was planning to burn it down or something."

The guy laughs and in a moment of clarity the light bulb goes off for my friend. I almost mean literally, that's how much his face reflects what he's been saying. He turns to the guy and begins to sincerely apologize profusely.

The guy just laughed it off and a race war was narrowly averted. :D Naah, not really, we had a great time partying that evening but it certainly started off *ahem* awkward to say the least.

Still, given my preferences, give me friends who can innocently make these faux pas than someone who may actually mean something by it.

Know what I mean?

Actually this whole post is mostly off topic but what's the point of having anecdotes if you can't dust them off and share them sometimes.

[Butter]

SkyDog, I apologize for being so hot-headed yesterday. My 2 statements do seem incongruous, but I do keep up on news by media besides television, which is what I guess I was failing to communicate.

My over-arching point is that it seems that sometimes conservatives go out of their way to make a big deal out of back-page news like this to illustrate their point that the whole country is going to hell because of "political correctness". My wife listens to NPR and watches the news a great deal more than I do (I am currently going back to school to attempt to become an RN), and she had never heard of this story before now. I would wager that most people on the boards here had not heard of it, and I have mentioned to several people here at work, and none of them had heard about it. Is it news? Maybe local news, for wherever this happened. I think if anything this shows the low standards to which journalism has sunk to qualify this as an actual news story which qualifies for CNN.com headline status.

Again, the point I am making is that PC has not run amok in our society. There have been instances where people have gotten too excited about pretty stupid things, and I will agree that some people are too sensitive about meaningless things. But I don't think you can classify this as "meaningless".

Also, you said yourself that sometimes fans can boo and react negatively towards a road team's halftime show. Could we not assume that part of the negative response came from the fact that this was a road band? Would we expect a similar negative response from a home crowd? I think that'd be hard to say for certain. The reason that PC looks like it is running amok is because so many stupid items like this hit the back pages... how many things like this happen and aren't blown up? We'll never really know.

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by Fritz
Whereas playing the national anthems of Japan or Russia (or several other European nations) would be okay because we are just peeved about german genocide, right?
Japan, no. They were an aggressor and a member of the Axis. Russia, probably, given that they were one of the Allies and played such an integral role in defeating Nazi Germany.

Certainly you can make a case against virtually any country in terms of their misdeeds (the Russians are the best example of a cloudy choice). But in an over-simplified presentation of WW2 (such as a high school football halftime show!?!), the Allies were the "good guys" and the Axis the "bad guys."

The history lesson that I think many are missing in this incident is that political correctness (or tact, or sensitivity, whatever you want to label it) is not only appropriate but vital when it comes to things like the role of Nazi Germany in WW2. You don't go trotting out swastikas and German anthems like it was just another nation involved in a war. I think you just can't trivialize stuff like that.

My $.02 anyway.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
SkyDog, I apologize for being so hot-headed yesterday. My 2 statements do seem incongruous, but I do keep up on news by media besides television, which is what I guess I was failing to communicate.Apology accepted. No prob.

My over-arching point is that it seems that sometimes conservatives go out of their way to make a big deal out of back-page news like this to illustrate their point that the whole country is going to hell because of "political correctness".... Is it news? Maybe local news, for wherever this happened. I think if anything this shows the low standards to which journalism has sunk to qualify this as an actual news story which qualifies for CNN.com headline status.Actually, I got off-track at times, but the very fact that CNN gave this story the status that it gave it is where I see over-PC-ness coming in. This should have been a non-story. "Crowd boos visiting band." Happens every Friday night in a whole lot of places.

Would we expect a similar negative response from a home crowd? I think that'd be hard to say for certain.Well, actually it isn't hard to say. The AP story points out that they had already performed it at home, and apparently without incident.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by SkyDog
OF course if you boo a coach that isn't being PC.

Would be if he was black. :rolleyes:

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Of course they do. My point is that their reaction was illogical, and that the media's response is illogical, and that political correctness is the primary reason for that lack of logic. (Of course, that's redundant. Lack of logic and PC do go hand-in-hand...)

Fine, SkyDog. Why don't we have the next show on MLK day and it'll be the History of the South. At one part of it, we can have a bunch of folks wearing white bedsheets riding on horses and they can drag a dead black dummy corpse with a noose around his neck behind them. Now that wouldn't offend anyone we know, would it?

How the Hell do you know that there was nobody Jewish at the
game? Did they interview everyone to find out?

Frankly, your ignorance and casualness on this subject is staggering. The Nazi symbol stands for the systematic execution of an entire people. I think the crowd acted appropriately.

While their intent certainly wasn't racist, the execution and timing were extremely poor. Being pissed off about it isn't being PC, it's being human.

[Leonidas]

This was Texas HS football. I'm willing to bet 90% of the audience doesn't even know what Rosh Hashana is.

But I do know if I went to my kid's game and the band came out at halftime waving swastikas and playing German anthems I'd have a kind of negative reaction.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Blackadar
Fine, SkyDog. Why don't we have the next show on MLK day and it'll be the History of the South. At one part of it, we can have a bunch of folks wearing white bedsheets riding on horses and they can drag a dead black dummy corpse with a noose around his neck behind them. Now that wouldn't offend anyone we know, would it?It probably would, but if you're going to do a History of the South, that would be an appropriate part of it, now wouldn't it??? Of course! There's a fairly new exhibit in Atlanta of lynchings. Some whiny black demagogic politicians tried to raise a stink about it. IT HAPPENED, PEOPLE! We can't ignore it. I guess I missed that part in the Bill of Rights of the right not to be offended....

How the Hell do you know that there was nobody Jewish at the game? Did they interview everyone to find out?Of course not, but come on. It is HIGHLY doubtful. It was Rosh Hashanah. Jewish kids don't play football on Rosh Hashanah. Jewish parents don't work on Rosh Hashanah. Even extremely non-devout Jewish folks honor Rosh Hashanah.

Frankly, your ignorance and casualness on this subject is staggering. The Nazi symbol stands for the systematic execution of an entire people. I think the crowd acted appropriately.So then, by your logic, the Nazi symbol should just be 100% banned from any display at all??? Pretend it never existed? Treat it like an "unperson" from Orwell's 1984?

While their intent certainly wasn't racist, the execution and timing were extremely poor. Being pissed off about it isn't being PC, it's being human.If you'd read my post from a few above this, you'll discover that my main point about the PC-ness has nothing to do with their illogical reaction, but about it being blown up to the point of a national story on CNN and an issuing of a public apology.


Please explain how else they could have shown which song went with which country. Displaying the flag at the time of the song makes perfect sense.

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by SkyDog
It probably would, but if you're going to do a History of the South, that would be an appropriate part of it, now wouldn't it??? Of course! There's a fairly new exhibit in Atlanta of lynchings. Some whiny black demagogic politicians tried to raise a stink about it. IT HAPPENED, PEOPLE! We can't ignore it. I guess I missed that part in the Bill of Rights of the right not to be offended....</q></b>

Just because it happened doesn't mean it was an appropriate HS halftime football marching band subject. Again, it was poorly thought-out.

<q><b>
Of course not, but come on. It is HIGHLY doubtful. It was Rosh Hashanah. Jewish kids don't play football on Rosh Hashanah. Jewish parents don't work on Rosh Hashanah. Even extremely non-devout Jewish folks honor Rosh Hashanah.</q></b>

Don't be so sure there wasn't someone there. Reform Jews would probably have been there. Of course, it doesn't matter if there was or not. Wrong is wrong.

<q><b>
So then, by your logic, the Nazi symbol should just be 100% banned from any display at all??? Pretend it never existed? Treat it like an "unperson" from Orwell's 1984?

If you'd read my post from a few above this, you'll discover that my main point about the PC-ness has nothing to do with their illogical reaction, but about it being blown up to the point of a national story on CNN and an issuing of a public apology.


Please explain how else they could have shown which song went with which country. Displaying the flag at the time of the song makes perfect sense.

Again, just doing the whole thing was very poor, very stupid, judgement. And yes, it's going to be news, because it was that stuipid. And if someone is going to make an error of judgement that badly, you have to wonder if you want your kids being taught by them. I certainly wouldn't and would be calling for the teacher's immediate resignation. Because either their just fucking stuipid or they really are racist. Either way, it's not a good thing.

If they did a history of the South and burned a cross in the middle of the field, it's historically accurate, but in poor taste and not appropriate. That's not PC, that's common sense, something you've seem to have lost in your rush to condemn "PC-ness".

[ice4277]

Originally posted by SkyDog
It probably would, but if you're going to do a History of the South, that would be an appropriate part of it, now wouldn't it??? Of course! There's a fairly new exhibit in Atlanta of lynchings. Some whiny black demagogic politicians tried to raise a stink about it. IT HAPPENED, PEOPLE! We can't ignore it. I guess I missed that part in the Bill of Rights of the right not to be offended....


In the case of the museum it makes perfect sense to include things like that in the display and it would be asinine to think it should not. But you expect to see something like that at a museum, not at a halftime show at a football game. Nobody is trying to deny that it didn't happen but to involve it in this setting and in the fashion it was presented is much less appropriate than in a museum somewhere.

[Axxon]

I typed a meaningful Lenny Bruce quote in another thread which really belongs here but I'm not going to put it in again.

My point is though, don't people realizing that by making major issues of things like these that they are actually giving them power? People are drawn to the forbidden like moths to a candle and there are people who are banking on that.

Anybody want to bet that the neonazi skinheads are going to give up using the swastika any time soon? No, especially when they see what a rise it's use gets. That's what these people want after all, some attention. The good people of Texas have VALIDATED their symbol for them. It's really sad.

What really bothers me though is that it shifts the attention AWAY from where it needs to be. Let me explain.

I am a spic. Call me that. Won't bother me. I may wonder where you're coming from but it won't bother me. It's only words and you're entitled to yours. Have at it. I'll survive just fine thank you very much.

Now, what DOES bother me is that they bring in migrant workers, mostly hispanic, many illegal, pay them a meager wage, house them in inadequate housing at exhorbitant prices just so we can pay a little less for our fruits and vegetables. No big uproar about this though. Doesn't break any PC rules. It's just business. That bothers me.

Speedy Gonzalez? Hell, they can't even show him anymore. Offends the mexicans. But, we can still treat them like economic slaves so we can have our cobb salads at lunch. Every time some group gets up in arms over meaningless bullshit I wonder where they're at when the real bullshit goes down and I certainly don't believe it goes down because of a cartoon or a half time show or any crazy crap like that.

It goes down because the so called do gooders couldn't give a damn except to get a little bit of attention themselves. Well thank you very much.

As a hispanic I really can't exactly put myself into the shoes of the people offended by the holocaust though Spain suffered massively due to Nazi intervention. The closest I can really come is the sinking of the Armada and that's really not that big of a deal. :D

[Schmidty]

It is clear that nobody on this board from opposite ends of the political spectrum will ever open their mind enough to see things from a fresh point of view, so why doesn't everyone here just do themselves a favor and shut the fuck up.

More fluff threads = Happy fun time

More political threads = Talking to a brick wall

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Schmidty
It is clear that nobody on this board from opposite ends of the political spectrum will ever open their mind enough to see things from a fresh point of view, so why doesn't everyone here just do themselves a favor and shut the fuck up.

More fluff threads = Happy fun time

More political threads = Talking to a brick wall

Sure, the MINUTE the spic speaks we all gotta shut the fuck up. Racist.

;)