It's Here! The Thread For the 2003-04 NHL Regular Season!

[Draft Dodger]

Dola.

I was also surprised to hear that Cloutier didn't try to fight Aebischer. Cloutier likes to fight and is pretty good at it, if I recall. Then again, Aebischer is Swiss, there's no way he was dropping the gloves.

Cloutier, being a crappy goalie, was pulled in the 1st.
his replacement Johan Hedberg DID try to fight with Aebischer - when all the players squared off after the Moore hit, Hedberg skated to center ice. Aebischer just pointed at the scoreboard.

[Ksyrup]

I wonder how many times Florida is going to sign Bure, trade him, then sign him again. Pretty good racket. I was in South Florida over the weekend, and they discussed trading him at this deadline and signing him again next year (whenever next year comes...).

I watched the Avs game last night. I didn't know the history there, but the fighting was intense, early and often. I loved Peter Worrell from his Panthers days. Mo-fo just looks like he was born to kick someone's ass.

[Draft Dodger]

Double dola (only because I am the only one awake at this late hour. Well, late for you people, it's lunch time here).

Looks like the Derek Morris era in Colorado has come to an end. TSN reports Morris and a prospect were shipped to Phoenix for Chris Gratton and Ossi Vaananen. I like the name Ossi Vaananen. Morris never seemed to become the player everyone hoped he would in Colorado. Interesting deal. Colorado gets one more "tough" forward to go along with the likes of Cummins, Worrell, Barnaby (in his own way), etc.

I wondered if he (Morris) was going to go - you're right, he really isn't the guy they thought they were going to be getting. and now that Liles has blossomed into a good point guy on the power play, and they've brought in guys like Suaer and Boughner, Morris was expendable.

damn, I wish we had Drury back instead though.

[Draft Dodger]

Interesting line on Brad May: 2 goals, 47 penalty minutes. I wonder if that is a record, most penalty minutes in one game in which a player scores 2 or more goals? Hmmm....

it was a little amusing to watch - after his first goal, he hit Aebischer, and probably should have received a minor penalty for that. a couple minutes later, he scored again, and again skated right over to Aebischer. that time, he got a 10 minute misconduct - I can only imagine what penalty he would have drawn for himself if he'd pulled off the hat trick. :D

[Draft Dodger]

damn - TSN.CA is getting hammered it seems. is there another good site with trade stuff as it's happening?

[Draft Dodger]

I watched the Avs game last night. I didn't know the history there, but the fighting was intense, early and often. I loved Peter Worrell from his Panthers days. Mo-fo just looks like he was born to kick someone's ass.

yeah, I've liked Worrell from the beginning. But it's funny - for all his size and toughness I don't really think he's a great fighter; I think his height and clumsiness (on skates) works against him a bit and he ends up being a being a decent fighter, but not a great one.

[Ksyrup]

I just pulled up the tsn.ca trade tracker, and it's showing Tommy Salo to Colorado, but TBA on who they gave up.

[Draft Dodger]

I just pulled up the tsn.ca trade tracker, and it's showing Tommy Salo to Colorado, but TBA on who they gave up.

damn, TSN, nice server...

I can live with Salo. I'm assuming Lacroix didn't give up the farm to get him.

[Ksyrup]

Salo and 6th rounder in 2004 for Tom Gilbert.

[Draft Dodger]

I'd assume the Avs are mostly done now...
they've got their goalie and their size and toughness up front.
now they just need their Forsberg.

[sachmo71]

Oh crap.

Val Bure? The most un-Stars type player in the league. Crap.

[Draft Dodger]

Oh crap.

Val Bure? The most un-Stars type player in the league. Crap.

I raised an eyebrow at that as well.

[Maple Leafs]

Colorado gets one more "tough" forward to go along with the likes of Cummins, Worrell, Barnaby (in his own way), etc.Cummins? As in Jim Cummins? Don't tell me that punching bag is still in the league?

Barnaby has to be one of the most over-rated players in the league. He's a sideshow. And I give him credit for being willing to drop the gloves, but the guy loses every fight he's in, and usually loses badly. You have to wonder if he doesn't actually hurt his team by going out there and getting pummeled all the time.

Haven't seen the Bertuzzi hit yes, but it sounds awful. My guess is 16 games, which would be the rest of the season plus three playoff games. That would be enough to cost him a fortune and seriously damage the Canucks playoff chances without completely derailing them.

[Draft Dodger]

Haven't seen the Bertuzzi hit yes, but it sounds awful. My guess is 16 games, which would be the rest of the season plus three playoff games. That would be enough to cost him a fortune and seriously damage the Canucks playoff chances without completely derailing them.

it also might galvanize them into playing a bit better. but unless they are getting a goalie today and maybe some more scoring, none of it matters.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Cummins? As in Jim Cummins? Don't tell me that punching bag is still in the league?


I was as shocked as you were to learn this. He hoped on board during training camp (when Worrell was injured) and just sort of stuck. I think he's still with the team as far as I know. I can't stand him. He is in a very special circle of hockey players "Players H_B hates even when playing for the Wings." There haven't been that many (thank god), but there are a few...

[corbes]

Crazy Bob's Latest Trading Flurry:

-Got D Vladimir Malakhov from the Rangers for prospect Rick Kozak and a 2005 2nd rounder.

-Traded D Chris Therien to Dallas for a 2004 8th rounder and a 2005 3rd rounder.

-Planning to acquire D Greg de Vries from NYR this afternoon.

-No immediate truth to the rumor that he was going to send St. Louis' 5th round pick back to them for Eric Weinrich. This was actually, SERIOUSLY, a rumor yesterday.

[Draft Dodger]

Cummins is indeed still with the Avs...and gets a great seat (press box) for every game.

[klayman]

Well, crap. Who am I going to rag on now while watching the Oiler games?

[henry296]

Rumor in Pittsburgh is Alexi Morozov to Vancouver for former 1st round pick RJ Umberger (a Pittsburgh native) who is basically holding out.

Todd

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, crap. Who am I going to rag on now while watching the Oiler games?

Might I suggest... Cummins? Or if you want to rag on an Oil... How about Eric Brewer? Make him the new Poti.

[Draft Dodger]

Rumor in Pittsburgh is Alexi Morozov to Vancouver for former 1st round pick RJ Umberger (a Pittsburgh native) who is basically holding out.

Todd

is Morozov a goalie now? :D

[Draft Dodger]

damn TSN...

[klayman]

I like Brewer. That won't do. I think I'll stick McTavish and Lowe as my new scapegoats.

[samifan24]

yeah, I've liked Worrell from the beginning. But it's funny - for all his size and toughness I don't really think he's a great fighter; I think his height and clumsiness (on skates) works against him a bit and he ends up being a being a decent fighter, but not a great one.

Worrell could not skate backwards until midway through juniors.

[Draft Dodger]

Worrell could not skate backwards until midway through juniors.

I can't skate backwards now.
or forwards for that matter.

[samifan24]

You should try. Once you get the hang of it it's like riding a bike or driving a car and you never even think about it. Seriously, you should give it a shot sometime.

[klayman]

I can't skate backwards now.
or forwards for that matter.
Sad. When I was young, I had to skate to school in the morning, and backwards just to get home. ;)

[Draft Dodger]

You should try. Once you get the hang of it it's like riding a bike or driving a car and you never even think about it. Seriously, you should give it a shot sometime.

it's a goal. I've kicked myself repeatedly for not learning when I was younger living in Canada. Had a friend who played and was willing to teach me to skate - just didn't have the patience.

[Draft Dodger]

finally can get to TSN. the Avs gave up Keith Ballard along with Morris in the Gratton/Vaananen which makes it seem like way too steep a price...

oh well.

[Maple Leafs]

Worrell could not skate backwards until midway through juniors.If anyone is wondering, this isn't a joke. Worrell really couldn't skate in junior (he played in Hull, which is just outside of Ottawa).

Full credit to the guy, he worked hard and turned himself into enough of a player that he's made a living in the NHL.

[MikeVic]

finally can get to TSN. the Avs gave up Keith Ballard along with Morris in the Gratton/Vaananen which makes it seem like way too steep a price...

oh well.

I've always liked Morris.. I think this is too steep a price too.

[Ksyrup]

Salo and 6th rounder in 2004 for Tom Gilbert.
Apparently the 6th round pick is in 2005, not 2004 as originally reported.

[Travis]

Please, somebody tell me this Gilbert kid is an upcoming phenom. I mean, I know Salo hasn't been on the top of his game, but considering we couldn't get the kid for him straight up and had to toss in a draft pick to get the deal done, I'm really hoping Lowe is seeing something here.

[Draft Dodger]

Please, somebody tell me this Gilbert kid is an upcoming phenom. I mean, I know Salo hasn't been on the top of his game, but considering we couldn't get the kid for him straight up and had to toss in a draft pick to get the deal done, I'm really hoping Lowe is seeing something here.

former 5th round pick.

http://www.hersheypa.com/events/hershey_bears/meet_the_bears/players/gilbert.html

[Draft Dodger]

Canucks looking at Ron Francis?
that would be a great fit, IMO.

Leafs too...

[Maple Leafs]

First the Leafs get Calle Johnansson, now they're looking at Ron Francis?

I guess someone gave Ferguson a copy of NHL 95 for his birthday.

[Draft Dodger]

First the Leafs get Calle Johnansson, now they're looking at Ron Francis?

I guess someone gave Ferguson a copy of NHL 95 for his birthday.

you forgot Brian Leetch

[bbor]

The Leafs sign.......Calle Johansson...AHAHAHAH...that is funny....purely a depth move...he may not even get into a game.

Bertuzzi will be suspended for at least the remainder of the season...if not longer.

What's the story on Morris.....Why did the Avs give up on him?

[Honolulu_Blue]

First the Leafs get Calle Johnansson, now they're looking at Ron Francis?

I guess someone gave Ferguson a copy of NHL 95 for his birthday.

Old players are the way forward. 37+ are the key. That way, when you actually sign or trade for a player who is say, 33, you feel like you're getting a young kid, just ready to enter his prime. You're all like "33? Damn, he's still got another good 8-10 years left. What a steal!"

[MikeVic]

What is this Bertuzzi thing? I haven't seen it.. or even heard about it.. :(

[bbor]

Worrell could not skate backwards until midway through juniors.


Rob Ray STILL can't skate backwards.....or forwards for that matter:)

[samifan24]

What is this Bertuzzi thing? I haven't seen it.. or even heard about it.. :(

Click here (http://www.hockeyfights.com/cf277/040308_bertuzzi_cheapshots_moore.wmv) for footage of his attack on Colorado's Steve Moore.

[bbor]

we need a trade thread .this one takes too long to load

[MikeVic]

Click here (http://www.hockeyfights.com/cf277/040308_bertuzzi_cheapshots_moore.wmv) for footage of his attack on Colorado's Steve Moore.

omg... did Moore do anything to Bertuzzi before that? If he didn't, Bertuzzi should definitely be suspended for the rest of the season and part of the playoffs too.

If Moore did something to Bertuzzi, Todd should still be suspended.. but maybe just the regular season. Must suck for Moore to glide his face on the ice like that too... :(

[Maple Leafs]

Rob Ray STILL can't skate backwards.....or forwards for that matter:)Actually, I bet the next time he sees Brashear coming Ray will be skating backwards very quickly.

[Pyser]

all stems back to moores hit on naslund 2 weeks ago that gave him a concussion.

bertuzzi should be suspended until well into the playoffs. that was awful, and embarassing for the sport.

[MikeVic]

all stems back to moores hit on naslund 2 weeks ago that gave him a concussion.

bertuzzi should be suspended until well into the playoffs. that was awful, and embarassing for the sport.

I heard Marc Crawford yelling about that hit. Moore didn't get punished much for it, did he?

[bbor]

Leafs claim Chad Kilger off waivers

[MikeVic]

Leafs claim Chad Kilger off waivers

Hah! Kilger! One of the men involved in the Selanne trade with the Jets... I remember putting Kilger on my 1st line in NHL 97 (or maybe 98?), trying to make him something special... it didn't work. :(

[Pyser]

no, moore was never punished.

well, until yesterday...

[samifan24]

all stems back to moores hit on naslund 2 weeks ago that gave him a concussion.

bertuzzi should be suspended until well into the playoffs. that was awful, and embarassing for the sport.

I think he should get a calendar year. Colin Campbell needs to set a precedent for actions which negatively reflect the entire sport. As I stated previously, this is the kind of thing which makes it on the nightly news, the same news stations which often do not even show highlights from NHL games on a regular basis. Bertuzzi's actions are embarassing to hockey fans everywhere. The ball's in Campbell's court, but anything less than the rest of the season and at least the entire playoffs will be an incredible disappointment for me because I know the league will never have the guts to make a guy sit out a whole year*. Additionally, I think Bertuzzi should be criminally prosecuted as well.

edit- *besides McSorely because Bertuzzi is a "star" player and I doubt the league is willing to lose him for that long, despite my belief that they should suspend him regardless of his "stardom"

[Pyser]

well, the entire sport is going to get "suspended" for a calendar year, so i guess they may as well knock him out just for playoffs at this rate

[MikeVic]

I think he should get a calendar year. Colin Campbell needs to set a precedent for actions which negatively reflect the entire sport. As I stated previously, this is the kind of thing which makes it on the nightly news, the same news stations which often do not even show highlights from NHL games on a regular basis. Bertuzzi's actions are embarassing to hockey fans everywhere. The ball's in Campbell's court, but anything less than the rest of the season and at least the entire playoffs will be an incredible disappointment for me because I know the league will never have the guts to make a guy sit out a whole year. Additionally, I think Bertuzzi should be criminally prosecuted as well.

edit- spelling


:eek:

I don't think he should be suspended for a year, or criminally prosecuted... if Moore wasn't punished for a hit that resulted in a concussion, then how can Bertuzzi be suspended for a year? What Bertuzzi did was horrible, but the NHL should've punished Moore for a good number of games as well.

[samifan24]

:eek:

I don't think he should be suspended for a year, or criminally prosecuted... if Moore wasn't punished for a hit that resulted in a concussion, then how can Bertuzzi be suspended for a year? What Bertuzzi did was horrible, but the NHL should've punished Moore for a good number of games as well.

Well then we respectfully disagree, sir. Moore's hit did result in a concussion, but he was not penalized on the play and the tape went to the league and Campbell did not act on the hit because he did not deem it to be a dirty hit. There's a big difference between hurting a guy with a hit (intentional or otherwise, although Moore had his day in court and Campbell opted not to suspend him because it was a clean hit) and sucker-punching a guy from behind. One is an accident, the other cowardace.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I heard Marc Crawford yelling about that hit. Moore didn't get punished much for it, did he?

Nope. Not so much as a two minute minor for roughing. It was a "clean" hit by all accounts. Just caught Naslund with his head down.

I hope Moore is ok. If he smashed his face and requires surgery, his career could be in jeopardy. Look what happened to Kevin Stevens. His face got smashed and just like that, he went from a 50 goal/200 PIM power-forward extrodinare on a Stanley Cup winning team to a poor journeyman forward who spent his off-nights smoking crack with hookers in East St. Louis.

[Draft Dodger]

:eek:

I don't think he should be suspended for a year, or criminally prosecuted... if Moore wasn't punished for a hit that resulted in a concussion, then how can Bertuzzi be suspended for a year? What Bertuzzi did was horrible, but the NHL should've punished Moore for a good number of games as well.

Moore's hit was clean.
If that hit was against a 3rd line winger, no one cares. But because Moore didn't hold up against one of the game's elite, the Canucks cry about it. Sami Salo in last night's game hit Alex Tanguay on a very similar play - you see hits like that in almost every game.

[Draft Dodger]

Nope. Not so much as a two minute minor for roughing. It was a "clean" hit by all accounts. Just caught Naslund with his head down.

I hope Moore is ok. If he smashed his face and requires surgery, his career could be in jeopardy. Look what happened to Kevin Stevens. His face got smashed and just like that, he went from a 50 goal/200 PIM power-forward extrodinare on a Stanley Cup winning team to a poor journeyman forward who spent his off-nights smoking crack with hookers in East St. Louis.

Kevin Stevens is the first thing I thought of when this happened.

[Maple Leafs]

My "sources" (I do have sources, dammit) say DeVriest to Ottawa, although it's not being reported yet.

[samifan24]

My "sources" (I do have sources, dammit) say DeVriest to Ottawa, although it's not being reported yet.

DeVries for Karel Rachunek and Alexandre Giroux

[Fidatelo]

After watching it myself, I don't think what Bertuzzi did is as bad as everyone seems to be saying. He wanted to fight Moore, chased him all over the ice, Moore wouldn't do it (cuz of course Bert would slaughter him). So in frustration Bertuzzi hit him anyways. There is no way Bertuzzi intended for everything after to happen, just as Moore didn't intend for Naslund to be so hurt when he hit him.

Bert should be suspended for the sucker punch, but no way should he get anything close to what McSorely got. I'd say 10 games, and only because he is a past offender.

[Maple Leafs]

Sportsnet is reporting that Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck.

My god...

[samifan24]

After watching it myself, I don't think what Bertuzzi did is as bad as everyone seems to be saying. He wanted to fight Moore, chased him all over the ice, Moore wouldn't do it (cuz of course Bert would slaughter him). So in frustration Bertuzzi hit him anyways. There is no way Bertuzzi intended for everything after to happen, just as Moore didn't intend for Naslund to be so hurt when he hit him.

Bert should be suspended for the sucker punch, but no way should he get anything close to what McSorely got. I'd say 10 games, and only because he is a past offender.

So stalking someone down the ice and sucker-punching them from behind, then slamming their face into the ice after tackling them is only worth ten games, and then only because Bertuzzi's a repeat offender? You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

[Honolulu_Blue]

DeVries for Karel Rachunek and Alexandre Giroux

Ah ha! Samifan24 is Maple Leafs' source! The truth has been revealed!

[sachmo71]

DeVries for Karel Rachunek and Alexandre Giroux

I thought Rachunek was very promising. DeVries is overrated and overpayed.

[sachmo71]

Sportsnet is reporting that Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck.

My god...

It looked like the ice broke his neck, but regardless...ick.

[Maple Leafs]

I thought Rachunek was very promising. DeVries is overrated and overpayed.Rachunek is terrible. He's a complete mess, a giveaway waiting to happen. He's still young, so there's "upside", but right now he's just a soft, lousy defenceman.

[Draft Dodger]

What's the story on Morris.....Why did the Avs give up on him?

Morris hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't quite turned into the player they thought he would be when they gave up Chris Drury for him. I think it's less a matter of wanting to get rid of Morris (like the Skoula trade) than it is about Lacroix using Morris to get a player (Gratton) he needed. John-Michael Liles had been eating up more and more of Morris's ice time on the power play, and with the acquisition of guys like Sauer and Boughner, Morris was essentially expendable.

Morris is only 25, and this does look like a nice, nice trade for Phoenix.

But the thing about Pierre Lacroix is this - he doesn't micromanage each individual trade to get the best deal; he is always looking at the big picture. So, he has to give up more than he wants to get Gratton, but he gets Vannanen also. Then he pulls off a trade for Salo which makes him look like a genius. He traded Radim Vrbata last year to get Bates SUCKY Battaglia...but then turned Battaglia into Steve Konowalchuk this year...as good a trade as you'll see a GM make. If you look at Locroix's moves on a trade-by-trade basis, some will look bad. If you look at his overall team management...I'm not sure you'll find a better GM in hockey. Except for when he canned Bob Hartley. That was rank.

[samifan24]

Sportsnet is reporting that Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck.

My god...

Do you have a link?

[Draft Dodger]

Sportsnet is reporting that Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck.

My god...

yikes. link?

[samifan24]

dola-

Dallas Stars have signed FA defenseman Lubomir Sekeras for the remainder of the season.

[Maple Leafs]

Do you have a link?No, it's being reported on the radio. Nothing on the Sportsnet site yet (www.sportsnet.ca).

I'm no doctor, but I can't imagine it's a broken neck in the "never walk again" sense. We would have heard something before now if he hadn't moved since last night, wouldn't we?

In other news, Francis is a Leaf.

[Draft Dodger]

No, it's being reported on the radio. Nothing on the Sportsnet site yet (www.sportsnet.ca).

I'm no doctor, but I can't imagine it's a broken neck in the "never walk again" sense. We would have heard something before now if he hadn't moved since last night, wouldn't we?

In other news, Francis is a Leaf.

he was definitely moving his legs on the ice after the hit.
Francis would have been a better fit for the Canucks.

[Maple Leafs]

Here's a link on the Moore story:
http://wwww.sportsnet.ca/hockey/shownews.jsp?content=s030935A

(Apparently he's from Thornhill, the town I grew up in.)

[Fidatelo]

So stalking someone down the ice and sucker-punching them from behind, then slamming their face into the ice after tackling them is only worth ten games, and then only because Bertuzzi's a repeat offender? You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

No, I wasn't kidding. And watch that video again, he doesn't tackle, nor slam his face into the ice. He falls because of momentum and his weight on Moore. When Moore gets hit his legs give out and they both collapse. I'm positive Bertuzzi didn't intend to smash his face into the ice (which is what does most of the damage I'd guess).

I'm not saying what he did was ok, which is why I agree he should be suspended. But it isn't as bad as the outcome makes it look. Sucker punches in hockey are not new.

[Maple Leafs]

No, I wasn't kidding. And watch that video again, he doesn't tackle, nor slam his face into the ice. He falls because of momentum and his weight on Moore. When Moore gets hit his legs give out and they both collapse. I'm positive Bertuzzi didn't intend to smash his face into the ice (which is what does most of the damage I'd guess).
I have to admit, when I finally saw the video (after hearing about it all morning), my reaction was similar. It was bad, no doubt, but not as bad as it sounded. And I also just don't see the "smashing his head into the ice" part. I don't know if people are getting overly dramatic or whether there's another camera angle out there that I haven't seen, but it sure looks like Bertuzzi slugs him, falls on top of him and makes one more weak swipe at him before everyone piles on.

[Draft Dodger]

If you are going to sucker punch someone like that, you are responsible for the consequences. Moore didn't trip over a cat - he was sent face-first into the ice with a great deal of force by a punch he didn't even see coming. It doesn't matter what Bertuzzi intended to happen to Moore.

If Bertuzzi was a man and was not hitting a guy skating away from him...Moore would not be lying in a hospital with a broken neck right now.

I wonder...do you think Marc Crawford is still laughing about the hit?

[samifan24]

Well you can choose to blame it on physics or you can hold the man accountable for his actions. Yes, we all agree Bertuzzi should be suspended, but I disagree when you blame most of the damage on the physics of the attack. Moore wouldn't be in surgery now if it weren't for Bertuzzi and that's the bottom line.

[bbor]

Looked to me like Bertuzzi hits Moore.....Moore is out on his feet....Bertuzzi's momentum has him land on Moore.Moore being knocked out cannot get his hands up to break his fall and goes face first into the ice.

I would say end of season for Bertuzzi...including play-offs.

How could it not be?

[Draft Dodger]

Looked to me like Bertuzzi hits Moore.....Moore is out on his feet....Bertuzzi's momentum has him land on Moore.Moore being knocked out cannot get his hands up to break his fall and goes face first into the ice.

I would say end of season for Bertuzzi...including play-offs.

How could it not be?

at first I thought through the regular season.
with the broken vertebraes...I think we are talking about playoff time as well.

[Maple Leafs]

Looked to me like Bertuzzi hits Moore.....Moore is out on his feet....Bertuzzi's momentum has him land on Moore.Moore being knocked out cannot get his hands up to break his fall and goes face first into the ice.That sounds about right. There's no excuse for what Bertuzzi did. No need to sex it up by pretending he slammed Moore's head on the ice or wailed away on the guy when he was down. The sucker punch was more than bad enough.

[Fidatelo]

If Bertuzzi was a man and was not hitting a guy skating away from him...Moore would not be lying in a hospital with a broken neck right now.

Hmm, it could be argued that if Moore was a man and hadn't fled all over the ice to get away from Bertuzzi he would simply have a black eye right now... ok, now I'm just going too far :D

[Samdari]

That sounds about right. There's no excuse for what Bertuzzi did. No need to sex it up by pretending he slammed Moore's head on the ice or wailed away on the guy when he was down. The sucker punch was more than bad enough.

I've seen the video. It looks to me like he clearly slammed Moore's head to the ice, and clearly meant to. I don't find the reports sexed up at all. The radio reports all made it sound very bad. But not nearly as bad as it was.

[Maple Leafs]

I've seen the video. It looks to me like he clearly slammed Moore's head to the ice, and clearly meant to. I don't find the reports sexed up at all. The radio reports all made it sound very bad. But not nearly as bad as it was.Well, I guess we disagree. My honest reaction was that after the initial sucker punch, the worst you could say was that Bertuzzi didn't try to avoid landing on Moore as they both fell. But then again I can't read his mind.

[Samdari]

Well, I guess we disagree. My honest reaction was that after the initial sucker punch, the worst you could say was that Bertuzzi didn't try to avoid landing on Moore as they both fell. But then again I can't read his mind.

Watch it in slow motion. I see Bertuzzi's legs extending to launch himself onto Moore. During the fall his left arm is clearly on the back of Moore's neck and extending, obviously trying to add force to the impact of Moore's head with the ice.

I agree different poeple will interpret the video different ways, and that was my point to begin with. You can argue intent (which neither of us will ever truly know) and the cause of Bertuzzi falling, but not seeing his left arm clearly aiding the descent of Moore's head is ignoring the facts.

[MikeVic]

It couldn't have helped that the Colorado guy jumped on top of Bertuzzi , and continued to let Moore's face slide across the ice... and for Moore to run away all game after he gave Naslund that consussion... well, he had to know that they were looking to rough him up to say the least... I'm not saying he deserved what Bertuzzi did to him, but he was building up the Canucks players' hatred for him everytime he was on that ice and didn't get hit...

[Maple Leafs]

... and for Moore to run away all game after he gave Naslund that consussion... Well, let's be fair. Moore dropped his gloves in the first period. He did the right thing. That could have been the end of it right there.

[sachmo71]

It couldn't have helped that the Colorado guy jumped on top of Bertuzzi , and continued to let Moore's face slide across the ice... and for Moore to run away all game after he gave Naslund that consussion... well, he had to know that they were looking to rough him up to say the least... I'm not saying he deserved what Bertuzzi did to him, but he was building up the Canucks players' hatred for him everytime he was on that ice and didn't get hit...

He was trying to draw a penalty. That's his job. Bertuzzi just freaked out on him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Since I don't recall seeing it at the time (or since for that matter), I'll ask ...

Did Moore cheapshot Naslund ? Or was it just a course-of-play hard hit?

[Draft Dodger]

Well, I guess we disagree. My honest reaction was that after the initial sucker punch, the worst you could say was that Bertuzzi didn't try to avoid landing on Moore as they both fell. But then again I can't read his mind.

watch it again.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/cf277/040308_bertuzzi_cheapshots_moore.wmv

Bertuzzi was forcing him down and putting pressure on him the whole way down.

[Draft Dodger]

Since I don't recall seeing it at the time (or since for that matter), I'll ask ...

Did Moore cheapshot Naslund ? Or was it just a course-of-play hard hit?

just a hard hit. not a cheap shot in the opinion of most - it's a hit you see almost every day in the NHL.

Vancouver was upset because 1) Naslund was hurt on the play and 2) he is a star player, and there's supposed to be a code to let up a bit on star players.

[Maple Leafs]

Did Moore cheapshot Naslund ? Or was it just a course-of-play hard hit?A bit of both. It wasn't a cheap play like a sucker punch or stick to the head. You could argue that it was a clean hit. But it was a headshot to a player who was off-balance and couldn't protect himself. And the fact that it was a fourth-liner hitting the league's best player didn't help the perception.

Still, Bertuzzi's reaction was out of of all proportion to what Moore did.

[bbor]

What a boring trade deadline.

Can't wait to see the tv ratings on this.:)

[Maple Leafs]

watch it again. Bertuzzi was forcing him down and putting pressure on him the whole way down.I did watch it again. Bertuzzi wasn't forcing him down -- the guy was out cold, he didn't need to be forced. Bertuzzi is holding the back of his jersey and doesn't let go of it, but I just don't see any driving going on.

[MikeVic]

Well, I have to say right now that I didn't see any of the game, and I saw somewhere in this thread that Moore was running all game.. so I assumed that he was ducking all Canucks players for the entire game... you can see why I made my comments now. :D

It'll be really interesting to see what happens now... when do the Canucks and Avs play next? :)

[bbor]

The hurt does'nt stop in Motown...Robert Lang out 3 weeks with cracked ribs.

How ya feeling H_B....any injuries in Belgium? :)

[bbor]

Hnidy to Nashville for a 3rd roundpick..woohoo:D

[Samdari]

I did watch it again. Bertuzzi wasn't forcing him down -- the guy was out cold, he didn't need to be forced. Bertuzzi is holding the back of his jersey and doesn't let go of it, but I just don't see any driving going on.

Well, again, as they are falling, Bertuzzi's arm is extending. Try to explain it away if you wish, but his arm starts close to he chest as to fall and is almost fully extended as they hit the ice.

I do think that the damage caused here is more than Bertuzzi likely intended. Of course, it is not like the decision to take this action resulted from rational thought to begin with.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The hurt does'nt stop in Motown...Robert Lang out 3 weeks with cracked ribs.

How ya feeling H_B....any injuries in Belgium? :)

No. We're doing ok here in the land of frites, beer, lace, and chocolate. Though, with a couple of phone calls to the right people there could be a certain shoe salesmen in Canada who may have an injury or two... ;)

Seriously. Draper, Datsyuk, and now Lang? This is getting out of control. Datsyuk is due back in 2 weeks, Draper 4, Lang 3. This is not good. Assuming they all do make it back in time for the begining of the play-offs, it will be highly unlikely that Draper or Lang will be fully healed. A shoulder injury (Draper) and rib injury (Lang) aren't the kind of injuries you can effectively play through. You just can't. Your ribs will ache every time you breathe and the shoulder with each nudge. Hrmmm... :mad:

[Honolulu_Blue]

Hnidy to Nashville for a 3rd roundpick..woohoo:D

That's good deal. You can't think of a better place for "The Sheriff" Shane Hindy to play than Nashville. They'll love him down there!

[bbor]

and the clock ticks.....tocks....ticks.....

[Pyser]

trade deadline deals are always anti-climatic.....come on devils, PULL THE TRIGGER!

[Honolulu_Blue]

What was up with that weird, Curtis Brown, Jeff Jillson, Brad Boyes trade? Jillson headed to Buffalo? Is Jilllson never going to develop? Very strange.

[Draft Dodger]

boring deadline.

Canucks do get Martin Rucinsky.
Grier goes to Buffalo (Satan goes nowhere, it seems).
Blues get Savage.
*yawn*

Boston sends Jeff Jillson back to San Jose. San Jose send Jillson away again, this time to Buffalo. odd.

I think DeVries is a nice "get" for Ottawa. Francis would be a bigger pickup for almost any other team besides Toronto - that team is already so loaded with veteran leadership presence he wont add as much as he would have on another club. Might be interesting to see him come in somewhere though where he doesn't have to lead the club and can just focus on playing - he might turn out to be the pickup of the deadline.

love the trade for Salo. Not so in love with losing Morris for Gratton, but that's life. Barnaby? meh.

I must have missed the part where Vancouver got an NHL-calibre goaltender...

[sterlingice]

Well you can choose to blame it on physics or you can hold the man accountable for his actions. Yes, we all agree Bertuzzi should be suspended, but I disagree when you blame most of the damage on the physics of the attack. Moore wouldn't be in surgery now if it weren't for Bertuzzi and that's the bottom line.
That's awful logic. By that same cause/effect token, if some guy is watering his lawn, you slip on the water and get hit by the car then he gets the death penalty for killing you. The sucker punch was not what caused the broken neck or all the blood.

If it was just the cheap shot, Moore falls on the ice, and Bertuzzi keeps on skating by him, this isn't a story today. I'm still up in the air about whether Bertuzzi was trying to get him on the way down. If they decide he was trying to drive him into the ice, there's no way he plays until after the lockout. Sure, a cheap shot is cowardly and weak but it happens all the time in hockey and other guys don't get suspended 20 games for it. Look at what actually caused the gruesome damage.

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

Stan Neckar was traded to Tampa for a 6th rounder!! Wow! Did you know that back around 1993-1995 or so, there was a big rumor floating around Detroit that the Wings were going to trade Steve Yzerman to Ottawa for Stan Neckar. Yes, the Stan Neckar who was just traded for a 6th round pick. Wow, that would have been the worst. trade. ever. EVER. I would have given up hockey and likely the Red Wings. Phew! Thank god THAT didn't happen.

Good to see Holzinger escape Pittsburg. Granted, he landed in Colombus, but it has to be better than Pitt.

So it looks like Kolzig is the last man standing. The only player on the Capitals with any kind of salary who wasn't traded. The rest of them, ALL of them, Bonrda, Lang, Gonchar, Carter, Nylander, and Grier are gone. Of course, Kolzig is the only one who is on my CURSED ESPN fantasy hockey team, so it's no surprise there...

[Honolulu_Blue]

That's awful logic. By that same cause/effect token, if some guy is watering his lawn, you slip on the water and get hit by the car then he gets the death penalty for killing you. The sucker punch was not what caused the broken neck or all the blood.

SI

No. This is totally wrong. For an offense like this you look at intent and track it back from there. Did Bertuzzi intend to hit Moore? Yes, it was premeditated, he chased him half-way across the rink. Did he intend to break his neck with the punch? No. But that doesn't matter, once you have the original intent of the act (the punch) you have to live the consequences. Same thing would happen if you got into a fight. You punch some dude and he just happens to have some rare condition that makes his skull like an egg-shell and he dies, you on the hook for voluntary manslaughter (or some equivalent).

This is totally different from the watering the law scenario. Different ballpark, different sport (pardon the pun).

The logic of the original post was sound.

[samifan24]

That's awful logic. By that same cause/effect token, if some guy is watering his lawn, you slip on the water and get hit by the car then he gets the death penalty for killing you. The sucker punch was not what caused the broken neck or all the blood.

If it was just the cheap shot, Moore falls on the ice, and Bertuzzi keeps on skating by him, this isn't a story today. I'm still up in the air about whether Bertuzzi was trying to get him on the way down. If they decide he was trying to drive him into the ice, there's no way he plays until after the lockout. Sure, a cheap shot is cowardly and weak but it happens all the time in hockey and other guys don't get suspended 20 games for it. Look at what actually caused the gruesome damage.

SI
Awful logic? I don't think so: had Bertuzzi not sucker-punched Moore in the first place, the entire incident (regardless of whether Bertuzzi "drove" Moore into the ice purposely or not) would never have taken place.

You're right about one thing: cheap shots do happen all the time. The difference is that Bertuzzi's actions broke Moore's neck, so regardless of whether or not he tried to drive Moore into the ice, Bertuzzi's sucker-punch jumpstarted the whole incident and he should be accountable for his actions. What caused the damage? Bertuzzi caused the damage, plain and simple.

[Draft Dodger]

Stan Neckar (pronounced NeshCash, IIRC) is still in the league? really?

[sterlingice]

No. This is totally wrong. For an offense like this you look at intent and track it back from there. Did Bertuzzi intend to hit Moore? Yes, it was premeditated, he chased him half-way across the rink. Did he intend to break his neck with the punch? No. But that doesn't matter, once you have the original intent of the act (the punch) you have to live the consequences. Same thing would happen if you got into a fight. You punch some dude and he just happens to have some rare condition that makes his skull like an egg-shell and he dies, you on the hook for voluntary manslaughter (or some equivalent).
And that's why there's the distinction between voluntary manslaughter and murder. If you knew about the condition and were trying to kill him, you get 1st degree murder as opposed to if you just get in a fight and accidentally kill a guy, they don't set you up with a date with ol' Sparky. Intent has to be taken into account. Obviously, I can't read the guy's mind but I don't think Bertuzzi went out there with the intent to put the guy into the hospital, just to ring his bell.

SI

[sachmo71]

Stan Neckar (pronounced NeshCash, IIRC) is still in the league? really?

I've always heard it NetzCarsh

[Honolulu_Blue]

And that's why there's the distinction between voluntary manslaughter and murder. If you knew about the condition and were trying to kill him, you get 1st degree murder as opposed to if you just get in a fight and accidentally kill a guy, they don't set you up with a date with ol' Sparky. Intent has to be taken into account. Obviously, I can't read the guy's mind but I don't think Bertuzzi went out there with the intent to put the guy into the hospital, just to ring his bell.

SI

Bertuzzi hit more with the intent to injure. That's where the intent lies. The extent of the injury really has nothing to do with the intent. That's the distinction between Bertuzzi's action and the guy watering his lawn.

In hockey, I don't think the crime should be dependent on the injury sustained. Though I think it's hard to divorce the two. If the injury turns out to be serious, I think Bertuzzi has more to fear from the police in Vancouver than whatever punishment the NHL hands down.

[Pyser]

i thought it was Nes-Cash

[bbor]

I've always heard it NetzCarsh


I've always heard it...

"healthy scratches for tonights game....."

[sterlingice]

Bertuzzi hit more with the intent to injure. That's where the intent lies. The extent of the injury really has nothing to do with the intent. That's the distinction between Bertuzzi's action and the guy watering his lawn.

In hockey, I don't think the crime should be dependent on the injury sustained. Though I think it's hard to divorce the two. If the injury turns out to be serious, I think Bertuzzi has more to fear from the police in Vancouver than whatever punishment the NHL hands down.
Well, then we're quasi in agreement. I agree that it should have more to do with the intent to injure rather than extent of injury.

But I think you're getting caught up in the "hype" of this injury. Should every enforcer who goes out there to cheap shot a guy get the same 20+ games Bertuzzi is going go to get? That's why I made the distinction that if they decide he was trying to hurt him as he was falling (and subsequently dragging his stunned carcass across the ice), then there isn't a big enough book to throw at him. However, if his intent was just to cheap shot him upside the head, there's no way you can justify that as a 20+ game suspension or every bench would have 2 or 3 guys serving 20 game suspensions at any given time.

SI

[Maple Leafs]

See, this is the part I can never really get my head around. Should the injury dictate the punishment? I'm still not sure.

If you say "yes", then you have to accept that there will be plenty of cheap shots going on that never get severely punished. Guys sucker punch each other all the time -- not as bad as Bertuzzi, of course, but you see it all the time in scrums. Do you never punish anyone as long as nobody's hurt?

Then again, if you say "no", then it's not really fair to throw the book at Bertuzzi just because the guy he hit happens to get hurt. But the guy has a broken neck. How can that not affect the punishment?

Look at the Havlat/Recchi incident. Havlat swings at his head, but Recchi sees it coming and manages to absorb most of the impact with his arm. Havlat gets a slap on the wrist - two games. What if Recchi is just a little slower and takes the full force of the slash? He's out cold on the ice in a pool of blood, same as Moore. Does Havlat get the season then? Doesn't the difference between 2 games and 20 games for the exact same action seem a little odd?

[sachmo71]

Vancouver also got Geoff Sanderson from CLB.

[sterlingice]

I really like Panger, but in a chat tonight...

Claudell, NJ: Panger, What grade would you give Bob Clarke on his assorted trades (Zhamnov, Markov, Burke)?

http://espn.go.com/editors/chat/img/espn.gifDarren Pang: Bobby Clarke gets an A. He always is thinking of giving his lockerroom the best chance to win and he always lets them know that management is thinking that way. When someone gets hurt or there is a weakness, he goes and gets it. Zhamnov has been exceptional playing with Gagne and Amonte. And Markov is a real gritty defenseman that would have been really popular at the 24th hour of the trade deadline. Now the Flyers can wait for Primeau/Desjardins/Roenick to come back. This is a strong Cup contender.
SI

[Draft Dodger]

the ESPN guys are nice, but they are total pussies when it comes to voicing their opinion - Pang, Clement, Melrose...all of them are so freaking diplomatic 99% of the time.

all the more reason to enjoy the various Canadian feeds I get through Directv.

[Ksyrup]

Upon watching the Bertuzzi hit, I can't help but think that the most serious injury might have occurred when Moore's teammate piled on Bertuzzi immediately after the hit. Not that Bertuzzi shouldn't be held responsible for the full extent of the injuries that he caused, but it really looked like the neck injury occurred during the aftermath, not the punch/takedown.

[sachmo71]

Nice trade analysis from THN:

http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/hockey/tradelog.cgi

[henry296]

Sachmo,

What happened with the Stars last night, shut out in Pittsburgh. I watched some of the game and Aubin stood on his head (45 saves) :)

Todd

[samifan24]

Nice trade analysis from THN:

http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/hockey/tradelog.cgi

Great link, thanks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, anybody want to take a shot at guessing how much playing time Salo will see down the stretch? 50/50 with Aebischer? Less? More?

(trying to figure out what fantasy hockey value he has left. G is the only position where I'm not even close to my games played allotment)

[Draft Dodger]

Okay, anybody want to take a shot at guessing how much playing time Salo will see down the stretch? 50/50 with Aebischer? Less? More?

(trying to figure out what fantasy hockey value he has left. G is the only position where I'm not even close to my games played allotment)

Aebischer will play in almost all the games. Salo is just insurance - replacing struggling backup Phil Sauve.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aebischer will play in almost all the games. Salo is just insurance - replacing struggling backup Phil Sauve.
Unfortunately (for me, not for the Avs) that's pretty much what I figured :(

[sachmo71]

Sachmo,

What happened with the Stars last night, shut out in Pittsburgh. I watched some of the game and Aubin stood on his head (45 saves) :)

Todd

Aubin earned every minute of his perfect 60. The Stars looked past Pittsburgh, and they got burned. Also, they are a horrible road team, which does not bode well for the #5 seed. :o

[Honolulu_Blue]

Hrmm... That [CENSORED] going on right now really makes you appreciate our little hockey sub-segment we've got here.


edited for thread security.

[Draft Dodger]

yep

[Maple Leafs]

Shh... druez might hear us.

[klayman]

:)

[Pyser]

yes, our conversation ran its course yesterday, now back to bashing bobby clarke!

[Draft Dodger]

ok.

Bobby Clarke still sucks

[Pyser]

whoooo!

[sachmo71]

He did get two draft picks for Therian. Apparently, he sucks.

[sterlingice]

Hrmm... That [CENSORED] going on right now really makes you appreciate our little hockey sub-segment we've got here.
Agreed. I disagreed with some of what was said over here (and being devil's advocate is just so darn fun, too) but it didn't turn into a knock down drag out brawl. We just had our debate and got done with it. I don't know who this druez person is, but people seem to enjoy taking pot shots at him personally instead of the argument. I was thinking of responding over there but thought better of it.

*tries to draw some parallel to code of the NHL thread versus the rest of the board not understanding and drawing a blank* ;)

SI

[bbor]

Hrmm... That [CENSORED] going on right now really makes you appreciate our little hockey sub-segment we've got here.


edited for thread security.

WHat happened??

[Draft Dodger]

a very tearful apology from Bertuzzi tonight...

[Karim]

I think it was obvious that he was genuinely upset. Still, unless the NHL makes an example of him, the league will be even more irrelevant than it already is.

I'm not sure the NHL has the balls to do that, especially to one of its stars on a contending team.

[Maple Leafs]

Verdict is in: he's gone for the rest of the season, including playoffs.

[samifan24]

Verdict is in: he's gone for the rest of the season, including playoffs.

The NHL drops the ball yet again. They have the opportunity to fight back against the brutality and negativity surrounding their league and they fail to seize the opportunity and make an example of Bertuzzi. I'm very, very disappointed.

[Draft Dodger]

The NHL drops the ball yet again. They have the opportunity to fight back against the brutality and negativity surrounding their league and they fail to seize the opportunity and make an example of Bertuzzi. I'm very, very disappointed.

I'm an Avs fan and I think the suspension was about right.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm an Avs fan and I think the suspension was about right.

As the exact opposite of an Avs fan ( ;) ) I agree. Therefore, we have a consensus.

The league has been pretty reluctant to ban anyone during the play-offs. It certainly happens, but the sentences are usually much shorter. This is satisfactory and I think sends a strong enough message.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Ahh... Gets more interesting.

From TSN

"Mr. Bertuzzi will be required to meet with Commissioner Bettman prior to the start of training camp for the 2004-05 season, at which point Mr. Bertuzzi's eligibility will be reviewed in light of all the available facts at that time, including Mr. Moore's physical status and the progression of his recovery."

So, in essence, the suspension could last longer...

[Draft Dodger]

Ahh... Gets more interesting.

From TSN

"Mr. Bertuzzi will be required to meet with Commissioner Bettman prior to the start of training camp for the 2004-05 season, at which point Mr. Bertuzzi's eligibility will be reviewed in light of all the available facts at that time, including Mr. Moore's physical status and the progression of his recovery."

So, in essence, the suspension could last longer...

it can, but I don't think it will.
Bertuzzi certainly appears to be sincerely remorseful about what happen. He still does deserve what he got, but I don't think they'll drag it out longer.

I also have a feeling that Steve Moore would not want it dragged out longer either.

I am dissapointed in one thing involving this. Marc Crawford deserved a suspension.

[Draft Dodger]

dola

of course, there isn't even going to BE a 2004-2005 season, so any talk of the suspension going longer is moot. :(

[Samdari]

dola

of course, there isn't even going to BE a 2004-2005 season, so any talk of the suspension going longer is moot. :(

Right, this is effectively a 1.5-2.5 year suspension.

Suspending him for part of "next season" would have been silly given the uncertainty of when that will be.

[Maple Leafs]

The NHL drops the ball yet again. They have the opportunity to fight back against the brutality and negativity surrounding their league and they fail to seize the opportunity and make an example of Bertuzzi. I'm very, very disappointed.Wow. What should they have done? Given Bertuzzi's status as a superstar player and his importance to the Canucks playoff hopes, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that this is the most severe suspension in NHL history. It may be the most severe suspension for an on-field incident in North American sports history. He deserved big-time punishment, of course, but what did you want them to do? Shoot the guy?

[Samdari]

Wow. What should they have done? Given Bertuzzi's status as a superstar player and his importance to the Canucks playoff hopes, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that this is the most severe suspension in NHL history. It may be the most severe suspension for an on-field incident in North American sports history. He deserved big-time punishment, of course, but what did you want them to do? Shoot the guy?

Well, McSorley nominally got a more severe penalty. I agree with you this has more actual teeth, especially if you count playoffs as 10 times more important than a reg season game. This is an extremely severe penalty. Shooting him would be more severe I think.

I do wish Crawford had gotten a 2 game suspension for smirking, or at least was forced to put on a uniform and skate a shift next time they played the Avs.

[MikeVic]

The NHL had to give this punishment. I think it sends out a strong message to other players. I also think that Crawford should've at least been fined...

[samifan24]

Shoot the guy?

Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. :rolleyes: They should have suspended Bertuzzi for a calendar year. This incident is an embarrasment to the entire sport and rivals the McSorely incident for the national exposure it has received. The NHL needed to set a precedent with this situation, and I believe that suspending a guy for the rest of the regular season and playoffs is not harsh enough of a penalty given the damage (both to Moore and the league overall) which Bertuzzi caused with his actions.

[Honolulu_Blue]

it can, but I don't think it will.
Bertuzzi certainly appears to be sincerely remorseful about what happen. He still does deserve what he got, but I don't think they'll drag it out longer.

I also have a feeling that Steve Moore would not want it dragged out longer either.

I am dissapointed in one thing involving this. Marc Crawford deserved a suspension.

I agree. I don't think they will drag it out any longer (and I don't think they should). That said, I don't see how anyone could really view this as the NHL dropping the ball.

[samifan24]

I agree. I don't think they will drag it out any longer (and I don't think they should). That said, I don't see how anyone could really view this as the NHL dropping the ball.

They dropped the ball because they set a precedent with the McSorely incident and did not follow through. I don't understand why everyone feels I'm such a minority here when ESPN's Terry Frei called for a similar suspension (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=frei_terry&id=1754978) and over 50% of ESPN Sports Nation voters felt that a one year suspension was appropriate (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?incomming=1&event_id=607&question3682=14977&question3683=14981&question3684=14982&question3685=14988&question3686=14989&question3687=14995&question3688=14996)

edit- to include links

[Samdari]

But, the McSorley suspension being for one year was like an NFL contract - its length was greatly exaggerated. McSorley was never going to play past that season (he was 57 at the time) and everyone knew it. He was, like Bertuzzi, effectively suspended for the rest of the current season.

[samifan24]

But, the McSorley suspension being for one year was like an NFL contract - its length was greatly exaggerated. McSorley was never going to play past that season (he was 57 at the time) and everyone knew it. He was, like Bertuzzi, effectively suspended for the rest of the current season.

Just because McSorley was going to retire does not change the fact that he was suspended for a year.

[Samdari]

Just because McSorley was going to retire does not change the fact that he was suspended for a year.

That is a very uninformed view. The people making the decision on the suspension knew he was going to retire. While I don't claim to know they did this, that knowledge allowed them to suspend McSorley longer than they might have had that not been the case. If they had suspended him for the rest of that year, he still would have missed the same number of games, and lost the same amount of money, as a one year suspension, or even a lifetime ban. To suggest that it is impossible that knowledge affected the announced length of that suspension is very naiive.

EDIT: And I do believe that the uncertainty of next season played a part in them leaving it open ended. I think he will miss additional games next season if it goes off on time. If they don't play again until 2005-2006, he will likely be reinstated for the beginning.

[samifan24]

That is a very uninformed view. The people making the decision on the suspension knew he was going to retire. While I don't claim to know they did this, that knowledge allowed them to suspend McSorley longer than they might have had that not been the case. If they had suspended him for the rest of that year, he still would have missed the same number of games, and lost the same amount of money, as a one year suspension, or even a lifetime ban. To suggest that it is impossible that knowledge affected the announced length of that suspension is very naiive.

EDIT: And I do believe that the uncertainty of next season played a part in them leaving it open ended. I think he will miss additional games next season if it goes off on time. If they don't play again until 2005-2006, he will likely be reinstated for the beginning.

It is not naive at all. Your argument is premised upon the NHL "knowing" McSorely was going to retire and therefore punishing him for a longer period of time. If they knew he was going to retire, why would they both to suspend him longer than they had to suspend him? If you are pointing that my statement is flawed, then you must acknowledge that your own is likewise flawed. You admit that you don't know if the NHL intended to suspend McSorley "knowing" he would retire, but you also must admit that neither of us truly know the McSorley incident. My only point is that I believe the league set a precedent with the McSorley incident and did not follow through with this incident. Let's agree to disagree here.

[Samdari]

If they knew he was going to retire, why would they both to suspend him longer than they had to suspend him?

To attempt to send a stronger message than the penalty they actually imposed. By announcing they suspended McSorley for a year while preventing him from playing in, and being paid for, about 20 games, it looks to the press, public and other players like they were coming down harder on him than they actually did. Can you really not see the benefit in that?

[samifan24]

To attempt to send a stronger message than the penalty they actually imposed. By announcing they suspended McSorley for a year while preventing him from playing in, and being paid for, about 20 games, it looks to the press, public and other players like they were coming down harder on him than they actually did. Can you really not see the benefit in that?

Well, apparently the "benefit" of the suspension's appearance did a lot to deter Mr. Bertuzzi.

[samifan24]

dola-

Let's just agree to disagree. We are not going to convince each other so there's no point in picking each other apart over the whole thing. We agree that the Bertuzzi incident was terrible for the sport but we don't agree on the punishment. My point in bringing the whole thing up was to defend myself against the perception that I am in the minority when I believe Bertuzzi should have been suspended for a year.

[Chief Rum]

More evidence, FWIW, that you are in the minority. I agree with everyone else who has disagreed with you. :)

Everyone knows the NHL treats its stars different than its thugs. I think this suspension is absolutely catastrophic to both Bertuzzi and the Canucks, far more than anythung McSorley's suspension caused to himself or his teammates.

It could also still last a year, depending on what they do for next season (although I agree with the assertion he probably won't be suspended again just before training camp--the NHL will have enough bad news with the labor dispute just two weeks away).

For that reason (Bertuzzi being a star), this is almost a precedent as well, rather than something along the same lines as McSorley. It shows that anyone--even the stars--are going to get a serious suspension for actions like this. It's easy for players to dismiss McSorley and his incident because he was a known thug and about to retire. Bertuzzi was supposedly protected by the league code ofr conduct about stars. The only league worse about protecting its stars is the NBA.

In that respect, the NHL sent a whole different sort of message, and now everyone knows that even the stars will be dealt with harshly. Forgive me for disagreeing here, but I can't see a way in heck the NHL dropped the ball on this. This is a fair punishment, even if Bertuzzi doesn't get suspended again in September.

Before you leap on your ESPN poll defense again, you might want to consider something. ESPN attracts all sports fans, not just hockey fans. I would argue that the sports fan that doesn't know hockey actually far dwarfs the number that do. They don't watch hockey and probably for related reasons, don't like the violence or fighting that goes on in the sport. That's another issue that has been shown in other threads to be very divisive, even among hockey fans. So you know how it must be with all sports fans.

They all see this incident, with the pool of blood, and don't understand what kind of punishement this is to the team and to Bertuzzi, because they don't know hokcey. They have only bothered to watch one hockey play all year, and it was this one. So it makes sense that poll is extremely skewed to a huge punishemnt. In other words, it's not a scientific poll, or necessarily representative of an objective observer. You might want to try and find a Gallup poll of the general public instead. That would have more evidentiary support than a ESPN poll of all the basketball beenie boppers, drunk NASCAR and NFL fans, and old codger baseball fans that haven't watched any hockey this season. ;)

CR

[bbor]

The suspension length sounds about right to me.The thingi worry about when they do revisit the suspension next season most of the furor will have died down and he may be allowed to return to action too early.He should sit out at least as many games as Mcsorely did(23).

[Maple Leafs]

Before you leap on your ESPN poll defense again, you might want to consider something. ESPN attracts all sports fans, not just hockey fans. I would argue that the sports fan that doesn't know hockey actually far dwarfs the number that do. They don't watch hockey and probably for related reasons, don't like the violence or fighting that goes on in the sport.Agreed. I'm not a fan of the "circle the wagons" approach, and I'm not trying to exclude people from the discussion (least of all samifan, who does knows the sport). But I'm getting tired of all the hand-wringing about this hit from people who just have no interest at all in the NHL. They don't watch the sport, they don't know the sport, but there they are talking about what the league should do about "that Brazzuti guy".

I thought David Schonfeild put it pretty well on ESPN.com today.

I was watching SportsCenter on Tuesday night with my wife, who is a big hockey fan, when the Bertuzzi hit was shown again.

Her comment was especially revealing: "Now columnists everywhere who haven't seen a hockey game all year will be writing on this."

Hockey is a tough game. Sometimes it is a violent game. It is nowhere near as violent as boxing or football. A hard check along the boards or even a sucker punch to the back of the neck don't normally have the same potential for injury -- or death -- as a pitcher deliberately throwing a 95-mph fastball at a batter's head or race-car drivers screaming at 230 mph down the backstretch at Daytona.

Nobody gets outraged when a defensive lineman delivers a crushing to a quarterback two seconds after he has thrown the ball or when a wide receiver gets clotheslined in the head.

Yet ... columnists everywhere will be ranting and raving about this play, pounding their fists on their imaginary typewriters and acting -- like they do once a year -- that they actually know something about hockey.

As Maple Leafs coach Pat Quinn said when asked about Bertuzzi's hit, "Payback has been part of the game for 100 years." It is what it is. Steve Moore knew the game when he delivered a cheap shot to Canucks captain Markus Naslund last month. Avalanche coach Tony Granato knows the game -- he was once suspended 15 games for a stick to the face.

I'm not defending Bertuzzi's hit. It obviously crossed the line of fair play or even "payback" play and is unacceptable. If he receives a long suspension and misses the playoffs, it's a costly blow to a team with Stanley Cup hopes, and even Bertuzzi's teammates would admit that no attempt at payback makes that defensible.

But if you don't know the game, keep your ranting to something else.

[Samdari]

dola-

Let's just agree to disagree. We are not going to convince each other so there's no point in picking each other apart over the whole thing. We agree that the Bertuzzi incident was terrible for the sport but we don't agree on the punishment. My point in bringing the whole thing up was to defend myself against the perception that I am in the minority when I believe Bertuzzi should have been suspended for a year.

Well, I certainly don't think you need to defend yourself for being in the minority. I encourage you to continue to have the courage to stick to your own opinion (as misguided as it is whenever it conflicts with mine) rather than change your thinking simply to be part of the majority. I respect you far more for continuing to argue your (clearly indefensible) position than if you capitulated simply because noone agrees with you. (I would much prefer that you changed your opinion being suitably dazzled by the wisdom of my arguments).

A couple of notes on our debate. As for the NHL convincing people that they suspended McSorley for a year, it was woefully ineffective - nobody bought it as a year suspension. Analysts called it a ~20 game suspension from the minute it was announced, and many (including Bill Clement, who was just on Tony K) remember it as such.

And as far as the effectiveness of harsh punishments as deterrents, it is truly impossible to measure. We cannot know how many times players were dissuaded from committing extreme violent acts in the four years since the McSorley incident. This could easily turn into the death penalty thread, but suffice it to say that when people act without any consideration of the consequences, the severity of potential consequences do not matter. I think that was the case here.

[samifan24]

Before you leap on your ESPN poll defense again, you might want to consider something. ESPN attracts all sports fans, not just hockey fans. I would argue that the sports fan that doesn't know hockey actually far dwarfs the number that do. They don't watch hockey and probably for related reasons, don't like the violence or fighting that goes on in the sport. That's another issue that has been shown in other threads to be very divisive, even among hockey fans. So you know how it must be with all sports fans.

They all see this incident, with the pool of blood, and don't understand what kind of punishement this is to the team and to Bertuzzi, because they don't know hokcey. They have only bothered to watch one hockey play all year, and it was this one. So it makes sense that poll is extremely skewed to a huge punishemnt. In other words, it's not a scientific poll, or necessarily representative of an objective observer. You might want to try and find a Gallup poll of the general public instead. That would have more evidentiary support than a ESPN poll of all the basketball beenie boppers, drunk NASCAR and NFL fans, and old codger baseball fans that haven't watched any hockey this season. ;)

CR

Well I have a couple of issues with your statement. First of all, of course the ESPN poll is not a scientific poll, just as those here on FOFC are not scientific polls. However, I feel that the ESPN poll is still an accurate reflection of the views of over 100,000 sports fans, and yes, you are right, who may or may not know or follow hockey as those of us here do. Nonetheless, 100,000 sports fans feel that the a year's suspension was an appropriate penalty, so I feel it remains an accurate study of sports fans in general. I doubt a Gallup poll would exist and I think you know that. As it stands now, it remains the largest poll on the issue I've seen and, I believe, continues to reflect my sentiment that I am not in the minority of sports fans when I say that Bertuzzi deserved a longer penalty. I will admit that the poll is inherently flawed, but what other evidence do I have? As far as I know, the ESPN poll remains the largest poll on the issue. I am clearly in the minority here, but on a larger scale I still believe that due to a lack of contrasting evidence (scientific or otherwise) I remain in the majority of sports fans in general.

edit- I am willing to acknowledge that everyone here disagrees with me, and now Barry Melrose disagrees with me as well (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=melrose_barry&id=1756696), but I still do not believe I am in the minority of sports fans overall.

[samifan24]

Maple Leafs-

I admitted that Schonfield's wife's reaction would be the norm several posts ago.

"As I stated previously, this is the kind of thing which makes it on the nightly news, the same news stations which often do not even show highlights from NHL games on a regular basis."

That's the worst part of the whole situation. Bertuzzi's actions give the sport a bad image.

[Maple Leafs]

That's the worst part of the whole situation. Bertuzzi's actions give the sport a bad image.Exactly. And that's a shame, because this isn't really a hockey problem. It's a pro sports problem.

We all thought it was great when Clemens finally had to step into the batter's box against the Mets. What if Estes had him in the temple? We would have all acted horrified, talked about the black eye, how could this happen, etc. But he didn't, so we all think it's a case of standing up for your team, and honoring the code. Great entertainment!

Sometimes things go too far and bad things happen. When they do, there are consequences and so there should be. But the media needs to stop pretending that this could only happen in the NHL.

[sterlingice]

Ahh... Gets more interesting.

From TSN

"Mr. Bertuzzi will be required to meet with Commissioner Bettman prior to the start of training camp for the 2004-05 season, at which point Mr. Bertuzzi's eligibility will be reviewed in light of all the available facts at that time, including Mr. Moore's physical status and the progression of his recovery."

So, in essence, the suspension could last longer...
I think this is just thrown in to placate those wanting a longer sentence. And I'm really glad they did it. It leaves open the option to suspend him longer, but I'm pretty sure they won't. I think that, even if there was no work stoppage at all, by the time next season was getting ready to start, cooler heads would have prevailed and being suspended from the regular season and playoffs will be enough. But right now, emotions are running too high for even the most level headed to judge clearly.

SI

[sterlingice]

Well, I certainly don't think you need to defend yourself for being in the minority. I encourage you to continue to have the courage to stick to your own opinion (as misguided as it is whenever it conflicts with mine) rather than change your thinking simply to be part of the majority. I respect you far more for continuing to argue your (clearly indefensible) position than if you capitulated simply because noone agrees with you. (I would much prefer that you changed your opinion being suitably dazzled by the wisdom of my arguments).
This is how most "debates" on FOFC go with the regular text what people say and the parenthetical text as what they are thinking ;)

Well I have a couple of issues with your statement. First of all, of course the ESPN poll is not a scientific poll, just as those here on FOFC are not scientific polls. However, I feel that the ESPN poll is still an accurate reflection of the views of over 100,000 sports fans, and yes, you are right, who may or may not know or follow hockey as those of us here do. Nonetheless, 100,000 sports fans feel that the a year's suspension was an appropriate penalty, so I feel it remains an accurate study of sports fans in general. ... I am clearly in the minority here, but on a larger scale I still believe that due to a lack of contrasting evidence (scientific or otherwise) I remain in the majority of sports fans in general.
I think the problem with this argument is "who gives a flying eff what the average sports fan thinks". Sounds silly in the "why isn't the NHL trying to market itself to every sports fan" sense but, really, a lot of the people posting there are in for their yearly "the NHL sucks" message just like everytime there's an NBA thread here. If the NHL can keep its fans happy and not piss off anyone else too terribly, then they probably did ok. And by "not piss off anyone", I'm referring to that fact that of the 100K who voted, at least two thirds of those had never heard of and in two months won't rememberBertuzzi's name.

And besides, what's wrong with playing devil's advocate. Whether you believe what you are saying or not, it's damn fun and it just might get people thinking about something they hadn't thought about before :)

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought David Schonfeild put it pretty well on ESPN.com today.
And now, thanks to your post, I know that I think Schonfeild put it very very well.

[Draft Dodger]

cool!

looks like I'm going to see the Hanson Brothers (http://www.monarchshockey.com/news/?id=931) at the game tomorrow night

[samifan24]

cool!

looks like I'm going to see the Hanson Brothers (http://www.monarchshockey.com/news/?id=931) at the game tomorrow night

Wow, Mullet night AND you get to see my boy Mike Cammalleri, what could be better? :D

[Draft Dodger]

Wow, Mullet night AND you get to see my boy Mike Cammalleri, what could be better? :D

Michigan fan?

[samifan24]

Michigan fan?

Nope, Mike Cammalleri fan. Gotta root for the little guys. The scary thing is I'm almost as old as he is.

[Draft Dodger]

Nope, Mike Cammalleri fan. Gotta root for the little guys. The scary thing is I'm almost as old as he is.

haven't seen much of him so far, even though we go to 10+ games a year, it seems that every time we go, he's either up with the Kings or hurt.
this will probably be just the 2nd time I see him.

[Karim]

So I get a letter today from the Flames wanting me to buy a pair of playoff tickets:

Round 1 & 2: $1,281.02

Round 3: $807.98 (charged upon successful completion of Round 1)

Round 4: $968.00 (charged upon successful completion of Round 2)


I'd really like to know what it costs for MLB or NBA playoff tickets. I'm a die hard Flames fan but this is just way out of my price range at the moment. I've never been to a playoff game but it will still be on TV.

[bbor]

That would be cheap for Leaf tickets.The cost of round 1 and 2 for the Flames is barely enough for round 1 in Toronto.

[Karim]

That's what I figured and the building will be sold out if we make the playoffs but it's still too rich for my blood. I paid less for 7 regular season games than I potentially would just for Round 1 (2? games).

Hopefully ticket prices go down a bit post-CBA...

[klayman]

They're just trying to make up for the last 6 years...next year playoff tickets will be cheaper :)

[Karim]

:p

We're this year's Cinderella team, baby!

(At least I can dream...)

[Draft Dodger]

my wife and I got to meet the Hanson Brothers the other night, which was pretty cool. they were really nice.

she and I and our son had dressed up as them 2 Halloweens ago, and we had them sign a picture of that...

http://www.driscoll-carignan.com/friends/halloween/pic035.jpg

[sterlingice]

What's going on over there in Pittsburgh that, after losing 18 straight, they have points in 8 of their last 10 games?

SI

[sachmo71]

Did anyone see this strangeness?


Commissioner's Decision Re: Game 7
The British Columbia Hockey League has issued the following statement regarding Game 7 of the Powell River at Nanaimo Game, Saturday, March 13, 2004.








Circumstances:

At 1:20 remaining of the 3rd period in the above game where the teams were tied 3-3, Powell River Goaltender Eric Bourbeau left his crease to race a Nanaimo player for a loose puck. The goaltender reached the puck first and subsequently froze the puck.



At that time, the referee stopped the play and assessed the Goaltender a minor penalty for Delay of Game under rule 58 (b) FALLING ON THE PUCK.



Rule 58 (b):

A minor penalty shall be assessed any goaltender who, while outside his crease, deliberately falls on or gathers the puck into his body, or holds or places the puck against any part of the goal, thus delaying the game unnecessarily.



Specifically, in the Hockey Canada Referee’s Case Book, Situation 3 – Point 4:

The goaltender comes out of her crease to beat an attacking player to the puck and simply jumps on the puck, causing a stoppage in play. No warning shall be issued. A minor for Delay of Game shall be assessed the Goaltender.



After some discussion amongst the on-ice officials, the officials have reported that they were uncertain as to whether or not this would be a penalty shot due to the fact that this infraction occurred in the last 2:00 of the game. Their discussion took some time, and eventually a penalty shot was awarded to Nanaimo. The Nanaimo player subsequently scored on the penalty shot and ultimately won the game 4-3.



Upon completion of the game and after reviewing the rule book, it was determined discovered that the penalty shot should not have been awarded under rule 58 (b). From the rule book regarding Penalty Shots and Delay of Game in the last 2 minutes or overtime:



Rule 35. Penalty Shot - Situation 1 Referee’s Case Book

A Penalty Shot may be awarded due to any of the following illegal acts:



1. Rule 19 f

2. Rule 24 c

3. Rule 55 c

4. Rule 55 d

5. Rule 55 e

6. Rule 58 c

7. Rule 61 c

8. Rule 70 e

9. Rule 78 a

10. Rule 82 a

11. Rule 85 d



Rule 58 b – the infraction does not apply.





Upon notification of the game protest, the league office contacted the Referee-in-Chief of BCAHA and asked him to investigate the application of the rules. After his investigation, he determined that the incorrect call had been made and that a penalty shot should not have been awarded in this case. He notified the BCHL Office that the wrong call had been made.



The League Office and the Referee in Chief have received written statements from 2 of the 3 on-ice officials including the referee.



Commissioner’s Ruling:

The BC Hockey League has an obligation to its members, players, and fans to ensure the integrity of the game. The correct application of the rules is paramount to the fairness of the league.



Considering that the rules, in this case, at such a key time of a very important game for both teams were applied incorrectly, the League Office upholds Powell River’s Protest and directs the disposition of the game as follows:



The Nanaimo Clippers will secure ice at the earliest possible date.
Both teams will appear at the designated time to resume play at the 18:40 mark of the 3rd Period. Eric Bourbeau will be assessed a 2 minute minor penalty under Rule 58 (b).
The play will resume from that point (1:20 left) and will conclude when a winner is determined through the remainder of regulation time or in overtime if necessary.
Prior to commencing play, both teams will be allowed a 15 minute warm-up. After a 5 minute no clean break, the play will commence.
The officials will be assigned by RIC and will begin play – with a face-off in the Powell River end at the circle nearest the infraction.


The Nanaimo Clippers have the opportunity to Appeal the Decision of the Commissioner and the League will provide further information as soon as it is available.




Has anything like this happened before?

[henry296]

What's going on over there in Pittsburgh that, after losing 18 straight, they have points in 8 of their last 10 games?

SI

The team has played hard all season long. During the long losing streak, there were few games that they we blown out. Once they broke the streak, they got some confidence. Plus, they have won some games where their goalie has stolen the game, which never hurts.

Todd

[Maple Leafs]

Has anything like this happened before?Well, the Pine Tar incident comes to mind. But I've never heard of it happening in hockey.

Does this mean I can still protest the non-call on Gretzky's high stick in 1993? Where do I fill out the paperwork?

[sachmo71]

No Leafs, you can't. If you did, the hockey would would be subjected to another few years of "No Goal!" calls from Buffalo fans, which would be sad. Very sad. :(

[Maple Leafs]

No Leafs, you can't. If you did, the hockey would would be subjected to another few years of "No Goal!" calls from Buffalo fans, which would be sad. Very sad. :(Not sure what you mean. I've been curled up in the fetal position since 1993. Did the NHL even continue after the Gretzky incident?

[bbor]

A Montreal v Toronto final in 93 would have been the cats ass.

Speaking of Buffalo as you guys are..how bout that comeback by the Leafers last night?

[sachmo71]

A Montreal v Toronto final in 93 would have been the cats ass.

Speaking of Buffalo as you guys are..how bout that comeback by the Leafers last night?


Poor, poor, Buffalo.

[Maple Leafs]

If I was driving down the street and saw Trevor Kidd waiting at the crosswalk, I would run him over with my car.

[klayman]

If I was driving down the street and saw Trevor Kidd waiting at the crosswalk, I would run him over with my car.
But, (to quote an old joke) you would go right between his legs.

[Maple Leafs]

Great article about what it's like to be me:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=1760855

[bbor]

They interviewed Rick Viave for this article??

Dude is so dumb he does'nt even know how to spell puck.

BTW...Damian Cox is an @ss clown.

[sachmo71]

Interesting article on Ken Dryden calling for change in hockey:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=kelley_jim&id=1761772

[Karim]

Most of that article were exerpts from HNIC's the "Satellite Hotstove" from last Saturday's game.

[Maple Leafs]

(From the "Don't you have anything better to do?" file...)

Ottawa City Council has passed a bylaw, banning the wearing of Maple Leaf jerseys in the Corel Centre.

Background: Each time the Leafs play in Ottawa, about half the fans are cheering for Toronto, and they're usually much louder. This results in some strange sites -- "Go Leafs Go" chants, Daniel Alfredsson being booed, etc. But the oddest is the way that thousands of fans are wearing their Leaf jerseys.

Anyways, it's a source of great annoyance for Sens fans, and now City Council has done something about. The bylaw is meants to be tongue-in-cheek, but anyone in a Leaf jersey will be asked to make a donation to the Ottawa foodbank.

Reaction up here has ranged from "That's marginally clever, I guess" to "That's just stupid" to "Um, wouldn't it be better to ask everyone to donate instead?"

[klayman]

Ottawa City Council has passed a bylaw, banning the wearing of Maple Leaf jerseys in the Corel Centre.


So do the players have to donate as well?

[Maple Leafs]

So do the players have to donate as well?
Shirts vs. skins.

[klayman]

Shirts vs. skins.
That might be a little hard on Belfour. Kidd should be alright though :D

[Maple Leafs]

That might be a little hard on Belfour. Kidd should be alright though :D"Trevor, wouldn't it hurt if the puck hit you?"
"You know, it never came up..."

[klayman]

Looks like the Leafs have made a response.

TORONTO (CP) -- Take that, Ottawa.

The Maple Leafs announced Friday they would donate $5,000 to the Ottawa Food Bank and Toronto's Daily Bread Food Bank in an effort to support the thousands of Leaf fans who want to wear their Toronto jerseys at the April 3 game in Ottawa.

Ottawa City Council announced earlier this week that Leaf jerseys would be banned from the April 3 game at the Corel Centre unless Toronto fans made a contribution to the Ottawa Food Bank.

"We look forward to Leafs fans filling the Corel Centre wearing their blue and white jerseys and supporting their favourite team," John Lashway, vice-president of communications and community development for the Leafs, said Friday in a statement. "The Leafs are strongly committed to giving back to the community and have been a long-time supporter of the Daily Bread Food Bank in Toronto.

"It's great to see the Ottawa city council getting involved in its community in this manner. Our organization looks forward to joining with our fans to support those efforts."

The Leafs are also challenging the Senators to meet or exceed their financial donation to the food banks in Toronto and Ottawa.

The Leafs added they had no plans of enacting a canned food admittance tax to visiting Senators fans at the Air Canada Centre.

My favorite part is the last line. As if that one can of pork 'n beans would really help the Toronto food bank anyway. :)

[klayman]

dola

Happy Birthday bbor!

Damn you are old :)

[bbor]

dola

Happy Birthday bbor!

Damn you are old :)

thx Klayman.

1 more year and i will be able to play 35 and over hockey :D

[klayman]

1 more year and i will be able to play 35 and over hockey :D
And that's when your true talent starts to show. Nothing like beating a 65 year old defenseman down the wing to make you feel like a hockey god :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Happy belated birthday bbor!!

So, how old were you when the Leafs last won the Cup?

Remember, at 34,you'd still be a prospect in the Wings' organization.

[Karim]

Happy belated birthday bbor!

Damn, I've seen the Flames win more Stanley Cups than you have the Leafs. :D

[bbor]

HB...I've never seen the Leafs win a cup:(

It could be worse......well...it could only be worse in one situation....and that is if i was a Blackhawks fan...at least we may be close to winning a cup in the next few years.Hawks fans have...uhh..nothing to look forward to.

[sterlingice]

HB...I've never seen the Leafs win a cup:(

It could be worse......well...it could only be worse in one situation....and that is if i was a Blackhawks fan...at least we may be close to winning a cup in the next few years.Hawks fans have...uhh..nothing to look forward to.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

SI http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[bbor]

Is EHM:FE ever going to come out?

This game has taken a longggg time to get to....uhh....where? DCo we know what stage the gameis in?Are they in Alpha,beta?

Anyone??

anyone??

Beuhler???
Beuhler??

[Chief Rum]

bbor,

Happy belated birthday.

EHM:FE is slated to come out in Q3, i.e. the summer. Last I heard, it's coming along just fine.

CR

[Fidatelo]

Wasn't it supposed to come out in 'winter of 2003-2004'? So like, Q4 or Q1? I've been waiting 2 years for this game, and it doesn't feel any closer now than it did when it was first announced.

Not that I'm complaining, cuz I'm all for it kicking ass when it comes out instead of sucking for 6 months until it is succesfully patched.

[Chief Rum]

It was, but I think the publisher change affected it.

Also, Riz was learning the CM engine for the first time. That just can't be that easy, especially learning it and then adjusting it to hockey, which I would imagine, would take a lot of adjusting.

My best guess is that Riz didn't like how it looked like it was going to end up in Q1, so he pushed it back to the summer.

CR

[sachmo71]

I can't talk about what stage EHM:FE is nin, but I'll let you guys know as soon as I can. Let's just say it's coming along nicely.

In other news, Teppo Numminen may be done for good.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1764057


Associated Press
DALLAS -- Dallas Stars defenseman Teppo Numminen has been diagnosed with a heart condition and is out indefinitely.


Numminen has a dilated aorta, one of the large blood vessels leaving the heart, general manager Doug Armstrong said Saturday.


Numminen, who has had a heart murmur since childhood and had been previously diagnosed with aortic valve disease, experienced an irregular heart pattern during Thursday night's home game against Vancouver.


He underwent testing Friday, which revealed the dilated aorta.


"The question is if he can play hockey with a dilated aorta," team internist Dr. John C. Brooks said.


Brooks said Numminen's condition is "stable" and he's in no immediate danger, although future surgery is possible.


While his teammates played the St. Louis Blues on Saturday, Numminen decided to rest at home with his family.


"When I talked to him last night, he was certainly shaken," Armstrong said. "But I talked to him this morning and his spirits were better. It had sunk in."


The 35-year-old Numminen will have more extensive tests over the next two weeks that could determine his hockey future.


"We don't know and it would be inappropriate to speculate on that," Armstrong said. "It's great news that he's in no immediate danger. The hockey will take a back seat."


Numminen, from Finland, has played in the second-most games of any European player in NHL history, with 1,157. He has scored 111 goals and 439 assists in his 16-year NHL career, which also includes stints with Winnipeg and Phoenix.


Numminen has appeared in 59 games for the Stars this season, scoring three goals and 13 assists. The Stars acquired Numminen from the Phoenix Coyotes last July in exchange for Mike Sillinger.


Recently acquired Chris Therien, who was scratched for Thursday's game against Vancouver, was one of Dallas' six defensemen on Saturday.


Lubomir Sekeras, signed by the Stars at the trading deadline, will begin practicing with the team during next week's four-game road trip. Sekeras had been playing in the Swedish Elite League after spending the three previous seasons in the NHL with the Minnesota Wild.

[klayman]

Stupid Flames. Never win when I want them to http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://java_script_:emoticon(':rant:')/)!!!

[Karim]

You just knew something was going to happen with these two teams with what's gone on over the season.

Oliwa is suspended for sure, maybe Regehr for instigating the whole thing and maybe even a suspension for Sutter and/or fine to the organization if the league really wants to crack down on that sort of thing.

[klayman]

Oliwa got 3 games, Sutter got 2 and the Flames got $50,000. Looks like your playoff tickets will rise in price :)

Not wanting to be left out of the recent stupidity, Mark Messier collects a spearing match penalty this afternoon. I haven't seen it, but I read it was pretty harsh. Quite a way to finish your career if he doesn't come back next season.

[Chief Rum]

Back to the eighties!

Anyone catch the Ducks-Wings game Sunday night? We're talking a major throwback here. If the Wings were in throwback unis, it would have looked even more realistic. Ducks couldn't, though--they didn't exist back then.

87 shots on goal. 14 total goals, only one open net. Final, 8-6 Ducks. And no overtime (of course).

Wings had two different three-goal streaks. The Ducks overcame one three-goal deficit by scoring five goals in ten minutes. Four lead changes (tyhat's a lot for a hockey game).

Federov puts in the difference-maker to kibosh his old team. J.S. Giguere allowed six goals--and still came off looking brilliant with 51 saves.

A large contingent of Wings fans booed Federov every time he touched the puck. This was in Anaheim, people. I have been to games where the Wings are in town, and as usual with all popular teams from back east, we were flooded by transplants who couldn't handle the weather back there. Freakin' bastards. I hate transplanted fans in SoCal (sorry, Wings fans :) ).

Fun game to watch, even if the Wings aren't in any danger of losing their position int he playoffs, and the Ducks have no chance at it.

CR

[Johnny93g]

I saw that game, unfortunatly, Gord Miller was doing play by play, if you get TSN, you know what I mean, he's awful, had to hear his voice crack 14 times....lol....great game to watch though...really fun...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Oliwa got 3 games, Sutter got 2 and the Flames got $50,000. Looks like your playoff tickets will rise in price :)

Not wanting to be left out of the recent stupidity, Mark Messier collects a spearing match penalty this afternoon. I haven't seen it, but I read it was pretty harsh. Quite a way to finish your career if he doesn't come back next season.

Only good to come out of this is that in my crappy ESPN fantasy league (in which I have been in last or second to last place sine October), I decided I could not handle having the lowest PIM total. So I had Oliwa in the lineup. His 34 minutes moved me from last to third from last in one day. Thanks fellas...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Back to the eighties!

Anyone catch the Ducks-Wings game Sunday night? We're talking a major throwback here. If the Wings were in throwback unis, it would have looked even more realistic. Ducks couldn't, though--they didn't exist back then.

87 shots on goal. 14 total goals, only one open net. Final, 8-6 Ducks. And no overtime (of course).

Wings had two different three-goal streaks. The Ducks overcame one three-goal deficit by scoring five goals in ten minutes. Four lead changes (tyhat's a lot for a hockey game).

Federov puts in the difference-maker to kibosh his old team. J.S. Giguere allowed six goals--and still came off looking brilliant with 51 saves.

A large contingent of Wings fans booed Federov every time he touched the puck. This was in Anaheim, people. I have been to games where the Wings are in town, and as usual with all popular teams from back east, we were flooded by transplants who couldn't handle the weather back there. Freakin' bastards. I hate transplanted fans in SoCal (sorry, Wings fans :) ).

Fun game to watch, even if the Wings aren't in any danger of losing their position int he playoffs, and the Ducks have no chance at it.

CR

Pure insanity.

You'll find Wings fans everywhere. I can't tolerate the booing of Fedorov. In fact, I must say that I dislike the vast majority of Red Wings fans. The bulk are a bunch of Johnny-come-lately's who feel that just because they either grew up in Michigan or cheer for an original six team that they have some superior knowledge of hockey than nearly everyone else. As soon as they open their mouths, however, it becomes apparent just how false this assumption is...

This applies even in the Joe. I have never been more upset watching a game than sitting in Joue Louis and having to hear what the people around me are saying or shouting. SO... VERY... ANGRY... :mad:

[klayman]

Only good to come out of this is ...
Actually, some more good in that Oliwa will forfiet $18,292.68 in salary. If that isn't proof for the owners that today's players are overpaid, I don't know what is. :)

[Maple Leafs]

So for those who follow the NHL's disciplinary standards, here's what we now know based on the Belak and Messier rulings:

Accidentally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: eight games
Intentionally hitting a guy in the groin with a stick: two games

Add that to what we learned with Havlat:
Intentionally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: two games

Makes sense to me...

[Draft Dodger]

I only saw the Belak hit once, so I apologize profusely in advance if I'm wrong, but my eyes didn't see anything that looked even remotely like "accidentally".

Didn't see the Messier spear, but Havlat definitely deserved more than 2 games.

[Maple Leafs]

I only saw the Belak hit once, so I apologize profusely in advance if I'm wrong, but my eyes didn't see anything that looked even remotely like "accidentally".Well, Belak wasn't facing him and doesn't even look at himthe whole time, so he's got a pretty good sixth sense if it was intentional. Plus he was off-balance. Which isn't uncommon for Belak, come to think of it... he can barely skate.

So I'd describe it as "accidental, but incredibly careless". If the league is going to start to say that the distinction between "incredibly careless" and "intentional" isn't going to matter anymore for stick fouls to the head, I'd actually be all for that.

[klayman]

So for those who follow the NHL's disciplinary standards, here's what we now know based on the Belak and Messier rulings:

Accidentally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: eight games
Intentionally hitting a guy in the groin with a stick: two games

Add that to what we learned with Havlat:
Intentionally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: two games

Makes sense to me...
After years of being completely illogical, you didn't actually think things would start making sense this year did you?

[sachmo71]

Shane Corson scores a shorty against Calgary when Brett Clarke puts the puck into his own net...from the Dallas zone!


Whaaa, whaaaa, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[bbor]

I'm shocked that they only gave Messier 2 games.Belaks banishment was about right band his infraction was as bad as Messiers,which leads me to believe it DOES matter who does the crime....Belak a known good...or Messier the captain of all captains.

BTW i totally disagree with Suter getting 2 games for putting Oliwa on the ice.Since when has it become the policy of the NHL to make line changes for NHL teams?

Sach...Are you telling me Corson has'nt taken his net and gone home yet?:)

[Johnny93g]

Sach...Are you telling me Corson has'nt taken his net and gone home yet?

lol

[RPI-Fan]

How did he score on his own net? Was it a delayed PP?

[samifan24]

How did he score on his own net? Was it a delayed PP?

Corson was credited with his second goal of the game after Flames forward Chris Clark accidentally sent the puck into his own empty net after his errant pass missed all his teammates and sailed into the empty net.

[klayman]

How did he score on his own net? Was it a delayed PP?
Ack! I'm drunk. Just got home from the game, and the beer couldn't ease the pain. Clarky passed it back to the point on the PP when the flames pulled the goalkeeper. Shame, really cause Clark was the only Flame who deserved a goal tonight.

Some random thoughts from the game.

--The Stars dropped into a trap midway through the first. That kinda of shit should be outlawed. Or at least the fans should be named the 1st, 2nd and 3rd stars of the game for having to sit through that crap.

--Someone needs to hand the fire and ice girls a sandwich. They didn't even have to open the Zamboni doors, the girls just slid through the cracks in the glass to get on the ice.

--Fans that get up and leave midway through the 3rd peroid, aren't real fans.

--Turco is a bastard and I hate him. And I'm not even a Flame fan.

[thealmighty]

1) It should be outlawed, but isn't, so they play that way, boring as it is, and it works (see Stanley Cup win, which was done using the same methods).

2) Fan thing, could not agree more...that's bush.

3) TURCO IS GOD (as thealmighty, I should know).

[thealmighty]

dola...

...I was watching the game. The look on Flames faces as they SLOWLY skated back after the Clark 'pass' was funny (to a Stars fan), knowing it was headed in and there was nothing they could do about it.

[klayman]

Yea Oilers! Every Canadian team is currently in the playoffs at this moment!

[klayman]

3) TURCO IS GOD (as thealmighty, I should know).
Boo! And I used to like you ;)

[sachmo71]

LOL @ Corson. He's doing just what needs to be done...knocking the crap out the other team.

[sachmo71]

DOLA,

Turco is definately NOT god. Until he learns to hug the post on a wraparound, he wil be just another mortal. He gives up some weak goals sometimes.

[Draft Dodger]

DOLA,

Turco is definately NOT god. Until he learns to hug the post on a wraparound, he wil be just another mortal. He gives up some weak goals sometimes.

we'll take him.

signed,
almost every other NHL team.

[sachmo71]

Bah. Didn't say I would get rid of him; but he's not a god. :)

[bbor]

Turco plays better with a broken foot than healthy:)

[Honolulu_Blue]

klayman, I think bbor said something about your mama in the instant coffee thread. It wasn't cool. Not cool at all...

[bbor]

AHAHAHAHAH

hb...2 minutes for instigating and a game misconduct:D

[sachmo71]

Bastard deserves it.




Flames' Simon suspended for two games


TSN.ca Staff



3/23/2004

TORONTO - Calgary Flames forward Chris Simon has been suspended for two games, without pay, for a kneeing incident during Monday's game against the Dallas Stars.

Simon, who was suspended for two games in January, 2004, is considered a repeat offender under the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement and forfeits salary based on the number of games in a season, rather than the number of days. He will forfeit $36,585.37. The money goes to the Players' Emergency Assistance Fund.



The incident occurred in the first period when Simon struck Stars defenceman Sergei Zubov. No penalty was assessed on the play.



Simon will miss Wednesday's game at Phoenix and March 25 at San Jose. He will be eligible to return March 27 against Los Angeles.





On Sunday, the NHL suspended Flames winger Krzystof Oliwa for three games and coach Darryl Sutter for two games for their actions in the final seconds of Saturday night's loss to the Nashville Predators. The Flames were also fined $50,000 Canadian.



Sutter's suspension was for player selection and team conduct. Sutter will be eligible to return Mar. 25 against the San Jose Sharks. Oliwa will be eligible to return Mar. 27 versus the Los Angeles Kings. Based on the average annual salary of his contract and under the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Oliwa will forfeit $18,292.68 in salary.

[Maple Leafs]

Two games? Damn, he should have just speared him in the crotch.

[Karim]

People in Calgary are calling for Turco to be suspended for what he did to Clarke. I didn't see the game so I can't comment.

I'm all for cleaning up the game but Dryden should come off of his high horse and reexamine his own team instead of chastizing the game itself.

[Maple Leafs]

I'm all for cleaning up the game but Dryden should come off of his high horse and reexamine his own team instead of chastizing the game itself.Canuck gets in trouble -- Brian Burke goes on TV and tells everyone to back off and leave his guy alone, that he's going to stick by him no matter what

Leaf gets in trouble -- Ken Dryden goes on TV and bleats on and on about how hockey sucks and the NHL should suspend everyone

I don't know about you, but I know who I'd want to play for after this episode.

[sachmo71]

Turco cross checked him in the face as he slid across the ice. It was totally unnecessary, and I would support a suspension for that. He's lucky Clarke didn't get hurt. I think I know why he did it, but still, the guy was defenseless.

[klayman]

klayman, I think bbor said something about your mama in the instant coffee thread. It wasn't cool. Not cool at all...
Bastards :)

[klayman]

Yeah, couldn't believe there was no penalty on the Simon hit. I guess it was kinda of behind the play though.

As for Turco, he's a bastard. But I didn't think the cross check was that horrible enough to warrant suspension. Of course, by that time in the game I was already tanked.

[Draft Dodger]

Yeah, couldn't believe there was no penalty on the Simon hit. I guess it was kinda of behind the play though.

so, do we need THREE refs now? :D

[Karim]

I really think it is time for off-ice offials having the power to call a penalty. At least it should be up for discussion. The game is so fast and calls are missed all the time because it simply wasn't seen or was misinterpreted by coming to the action late.

But truth be told, I just wish they would call all the mugging of the puck carrier. In the Flames/Nashville game, Iginla was carrying a guy the entire game. Yes, it was an effective strategy considering interference, hooking, holding was never called. Iginla is mild mannered but his frustration shone through afterwards.

If Gretsky or Orr entered the league today, they wouldn't become the icons they are now.