Andy Rooney - Our soldiers in Iraq aren't heroes

[GoldenEagle]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040412/1057793.asp

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</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="470">Our soldiers in Iraq aren't heroes

4/12/2004 </td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2">http://www.buffalonews.com/images/space.gif</td></tr> <tr> <td width="2">http://www.buffalonews.com/images/space.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#ffffff" valign="top" width="499"> http://www.buffalonews.com/images/writers//rooney_andy.jpg By ANDY ROONEY Most of the reporting from Iraq is about death and destruction. We don't learn much about what our soldiers in Iraq are thinking or doing. There's no Ernie Pyle to tell us, and, if there were, the military would make it difficult or impossible for him to let us know. It would be interesting to have a reporter ask a group of our soldiers in Iraq to answer five questions and see the results:

1. Do you think your country did the right thing sending you into Iraq?

2. Are you doing what America set out to do to make Iraq a democracy, or have we failed so badly that we should pack up and get out before more of you are killed?

3. Do the orders you get handed down from one headquarters to another, all far removed from the fighting, seem sensible, or do you think our highest command is out of touch with the reality of your situation?

4. If you could have a medal or a trip home, which would you take?

5. Are you encouraged by all the talk back home about how brave you are and how everyone supports you?

Treating soldiers fighting their war as brave heroes is an old civilian trick designed to keep the soldiers at it. But you can be sure our soldiers in Iraq are not all brave heroes gladly risking their lives for us sitting comfortably back here at home.

Our soldiers in Iraq are people, young men and women, and they behave like people - sometimes good and sometimes bad, sometimes brave, sometimes fearful. It's disingenuous of the rest of us to encourage them to fight this war by idolizing them.

We pin medals on their chests to keep them going. We speak of them as if they volunteered to risk their lives to save ours, but there isn't much voluntary about what most of them have done. A relatively small number are professional soldiers. During the last few years, when millions of jobs disappeared, many young people, desperate for some income, enlisted in the Army. About 40 percent of our soldiers in Iraq enlisted in the National Guard or the Army Reserve to pick up some extra money and never thought they'd be called on to fight. They want to come home.

One indication that not all soldiers in Iraq are happy warriors is the report recently released by the Army showing that 23 of them committed suicide there last year. This is a dismaying figure. If 22 young men and one woman killed themselves because they couldn't take it, think how many more are desperately unhappy but unwilling to die.

We must support our soldiers in Iraq because it's our fault they're risking their lives there. However, we should not bestow the mantle of heroism on all of them for simply being where we sent them. Most are victims, not heroes.

America's intentions are honorable. I believe that, and we must find a way of making the rest of the world believe it. We want to do the right thing. We care about the rest of the world. President Bush's intentions were honorable when he took us into Iraq. They were not well thought out but honorable.

Bush's determination to make the evidence fit the action he took, which it does not, has made things look worse. We pay lip service to the virtues of openness and honesty, but for some reason, we too often act as though there was a better way of handling a bad situation than by being absolutely open and honest.



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I am disgusted by this man's opinion. I am doubting very seriously Andy Rooney knows anything about being a solider in this war. Of course, neither do I, but I do not go around saying soldiers are not heroes. I am not saying the war is wrong or right - but this guy is an idiot.

[stevew]

I was gonna post this earlier today, but I didnt want to start another flame war.

[druez]

agreed he is an idiot

[Pumpy Tudors]

Leaving my own personal feelings about his comments out of this (as I tend to do with serious non-sports issues), I do find it somewhat refreshing that someone's stating an undoubtedly VERY unpopular opinion. That's pretty rare, and I like to see things changed up from time to time.

[Dutch]

While I respect Andy Rooney's opinion, I must say it is simply out of touch with fair play and I am generally offended by his remarks.

[GoldenEagle]

I was gonna post this earlier today, but I didnt want to start another flame war.
I do not think it will start a flame war. The idea is not to talk about the war but Rooney's vision of it. I think he believes this is another Vietnam. I do not know, but I just do not see it.

[Samdari]

Andy Rooney used to be a relevant voice expressing his opinion (reputedly witty, on occaission). The relevant part stopped around 1980.

[cthomer5000]

Leaving my own personal feelings about his comments out of this (as I tend to do with serious non-sports issues), I do find it somewhat refreshing that someone's stating an undoubtedly VERY unpopular opinion. That's pretty rare, and I like to see things changed up from time to time.
Whether I agree with him or not, I always enjoy Andy Rooney's perspective on anything. He has a way of stating his point of view both simply and effectively.

[stevew]

I do not think it will start a flame war. The idea is not to talk about the war but Rooney's vision of it. I think he believes this is another Vietnam. I do not know, but I just do not see it.

I just dont want No Myths to tell on me too.

[dacman]

I actually agree with most of what Andy has to say with one huge exception..the hero part:

There goes my hero
Watch him as he goes
There goes my hero
He's ordinary!

Amen.

[Easy Mac]

yawn.

but this is one of those, hate the game but don't hate the player things mr. rooney.

[wig]

I know a lot of guys over there, and not one of them signed up because he didn't have a job.

[NoMyths]

I just dont want No Myths to tell on me too. :rolleyes:

[Easy Mac]

I know a lot of guys over there, and not one of them signed up because he didn't have a job.
and I know a lot of guys over here, and not one of them smokes crack... doesn't mean people don't do it.

[stevew]

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you are still a tattle tale.

[McSweeny]

I know a lot of guys over there, and not one of them signed up because he didn't have a job.

so that must mean no one ever joins the army because they need a job

[cthomer5000]

Write it down!

[McSweeny]

dola

i see Easy beat me too it

[wig]

and I know a lot of guys over here, and not one of them smokes crack... doesn't mean people don't do it.

Rooney wasn't trying to make the point that soldiers smoke crack. He was making the point that they were soldiers because they couldn't find jobs.

[stevew]

Rooney wasn't trying to make the point that soldiers smoke crack. He was making the point that they were soldiers because they couldn't find jobs.

Does Rooney ever make a point?

[wig]

Does Rooney ever make a point?

That's a good point.

[NoMyths]

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you are still a tattle tale.And you're still a dickwad. I guess we'll just have to be content with ourselves.

[stevew]

And you're still a dickwad. I guess we'll just have to be content with ourselves.

Thanks for your support.

[stevew]

And you're still a dickwad. I guess we'll just have to be content with ourselves.

Is this the point where Im supposed to PM someone cause Im being harassed? Or should I wait?

[Telle]

Well he's right, they're not heros. Our dear president made sure of that. Because he declared the offensive over, soldiers are not eligable for commendations for their acts of heroism. There'll be no congressional medals of honor for these boys and girls... nope, no matter how many of give up their lives or perform amazing feats above-and-beyond-the-call, they're simply peace-keepers.

[cthomer5000]

Is this the point where Im supposed to PM someone cause Im being harassed? Or should I wait?
If you want to be a tattle-tale, go ahead.

[stevew]

If you want to be a tattle-tale, go ahead.

Nah, Im not gonna stoop to No Myths level.

[NoMyths]

Don't know who you are, stevew--probably just an alias for someone else, if I'm not mistaken--but you should cut out the third grade act. Reporting trolls to the moderator is encouraged around these parts. And I'd encourage you to do so--one look at these threads and SkyDog will pretty easily be able to see who is baiting who.

[wig]

You did call him a dickwad.

[Leonidas]

So things are so bad that the AF is looking at cutting down on people because far more people re-enlisted when stop loss was lifted last year than they projected.

And the 82nd ABN has reenlisted some 90% of it's troops eligible who just came back from Iraq. Yep, morale is so bad in the military people or reenlisting in record numbers. I'd say Rooney has this pegged just right.

[wig]

This article is the Rooney version of exposing your breast at the Superbowl.

[wig]

"It was an editorial malfunction"

[NoMyths]

You did call him a dickwad.Ah, so it's merely one of wig's friends. What a surprise. Though I guess it was tipped off when he mentioned you being reported to SkyDog for trolling, being as how that wasn't exactly public knowledge.

If I haven't been obvious enough about it wig (and your friends and aliases, whomever they be): knock it off.

[stevew]

This is just a desperate attempt for Rooney to appear relevant.

[wig]

Maybe he has a CD coming out soon.

[Chubby]

How is a soldier who kills himself in Iraq a hero?

[wig]

How is a soldier who kills himself in Iraq a hero?

Who said he was?

[stevew]

How is a soldier who kills himself in Iraq a hero?

Depends what you are trying to say here. Are you talking about someone killed in action, or are you talking about something different?

[wig]

I think he's trying to argue a point that nobody made.

[Chubby]

Depends what you are trying to say here. Are you talking about someone killed in action, or are you talking about something different?

I'm talking about those 23 soldiers that took their own lives.

People are railing on Rooney for saying the soliders aren't heroes. Well, they aren't. Heroes are people who do heroic things, not people who simply perform their job.

A lot of those soldiers don't want to be there for whatever reason. A friend of mine was told he had to go back to afgan even tho it hadn't been a year since he got back (I think he's in reserves or something) so he basically told them to fuck off and he didn't go back over there.

Some of the soldiers over there ARE heroes, not all of them. Once again the idea of "disagreeing is unamerican" (like having our liberties taken away) rears it's ugly head...

[wig]

Yeah, there are a lot of dipshit reserve soldiers.

This is one reason why I hate the idea of using reserves as front-line troops.

[Runtheball]

I think Rooney's comments were right on.
What surprises me is that so many here are offended by his point of view, and would resort to personal attacks on him simply because his ideas don't fit with their "black and white" view of the world.
The word "hero" has lost all meaning in our country today. Forget the guy that performs acts of bravery above and beyond the call of duty. Heck, let's just consider every one of them to be a hero...even the ones that never saw combat.

[wig]

Rooney is an idiot, no matter what his rant is about this time.

[Young Drachma]

So things are so bad that the AF is looking at cutting down on people because far more people re-enlisted when stop loss was lifted last year than they projected.


See, that could be for a lot of reasons. I mean, I doubt its totally because all of those people went over there and got this feeling that "I love this stuff!" and re-upped.

I think the fact that the Air Force increased promotion rates for E-5 and E-6 to higher levels than we'd seen in recent memory helped a lot of people stay. That and a lot of people don't have a real handle on what's happening "on the outside". Like, I know I hear sooo many stories of doom and gloom about how terrible things were on the outside. And I suspect they were for people without a real plan.

It's hard to give up a guaranteed paycheck to go find some job you hate or to just go to college, when you can stay in and work.

I guess the point of all of this, is to say that patriotism is hardly the reason most - especially first-term airmen - stay in. I know a lot of them are lifers from the start. But, all too many are just uncertain about their futures and don't really understand what's at stake and are lulled into staying, especially when I know plenty of commanders were singing the swan song of how wonderful military life is.

Not to be a cynic though, I obviously understand the sacrifice folks are making and respect them tons. I just think its a bit much to say that morale is wonderful, just because people are staying in - no different than saying the folks who sit around the water cooler bitching about the boss they hate, love where they are and wouldn't jump at a better opportunity, if it arose.

[Ben E Lou]

Been out this evening, and it looks like things have calmed down in this thread. Several people have contacted me about this thread, though, and I want y'all to know that I have contacted those who need to be contacted.

[Philliesfan980]

Been out this evening, and it looks like things have calmed down in this thread. Several people have contacted me about this thread, though, and I want y'all to know that I have contacted those who need to be contacted.


I respect your point of view (obviously, you being the head of this forum), but how have things gotten out of control? I understand that we might have some military (or former) military people here, but I don't think its gotten ugly here.

[Ben E Lou]

Not the military talk at all. The personal sniping.

[Glengoyne]

Well he's right, they're not heros. Our dear president made sure of that. Because he declared the offensive over, soldiers are not eligable for commendations for their acts of heroism. There'll be no congressional medals of honor for these boys and girls... nope, no matter how many of give up their lives or perform amazing feats above-and-beyond-the-call, they're simply peace-keepers.

I am pretty sure that statement is dead wrong. It simply has no basis in reality. Medals of Honor were awarded in Somalia, not as many as I think should have, but the point is that Somalia was a peace keeping/humanitarian action.

[Glengoyne]

Dola,

Just to add that I think Rooney has over extended what seems to have started out as a possibly valid point, but really anyone who dons a uniform and goes into harms way is a hero in my book.

[Bonegavel]

Some of the soldiers over there ARE heroes, not all of them. Once again the idea of "disagreeing is unamerican" (like having our liberties taken away) rears it's ugly head...
I don't think anyone called him unamerican for his opinion. Just an idiot. If you are heading to statements by some these days that you aren't allowed to disagree with this administration or similar banter, nobody here has suggested that rooney not be allowed to make his statements.

I don't understand why some get bothered by somebody getting bothered at somebody elses bothersome remarks. I get the irony, as my remarks are from being bothered by somebody getting bothered at another's botheredness about an initial bothering remark. I'll stop now.

[Axxon]

I don't think anyone called him unamerican for his opinion. Just an idiot. If you are heading to statements by some these days that you aren't allowed to disagree with this administration or similar banter, nobody here has suggested that rooney not be allowed to make his statements.

I don't understand why some get bothered by somebody getting bothered at somebody elses bothersome remarks. I get the irony, as my remarks are from being bothered by somebody getting bothered at another's botheredness about an initial bothering remark. I'll stop now.

So why bother? ;)

[Bonegavel]

So why bother? ;)
Humour eludes us tonight? ;) ;) (the wink gauntlet has been slapped across your face)

[Dutch]

At least now I know what bonegavel knows, and it's not so much that I know what he knows, but what he doesn't know that I know, that makes what I now know of no better value than if I knew what not to know.

[Bonegavel]

At least now I know what bonegavel knows, and it's not so much that I know what he knows, but what he doesn't know that I know, that makes what I now know of no better value than if I knew what not to know.
Ouch. I actually tried to follow that and now I need a smoke.

[Axxon]

Humour eludes us tonight? ;) ;) (the wink gauntlet has been slapped across your face)

I'll call your winks and raise you a :rolleyes: :)

Actually, it's been a zoo here and I've wanted to try and read the original piece but couldn't concentrate enough to do it. I just have and I just don't get his logic. I mean, I can see he has one but it breaks down at the point of actually not calling these soldiers heroes.

Now, I know that heroism is cut of a higher cloth than mere attendance. On that level he's got a point but that point can be made about absolutely any gathering of people for any cause whatsoever. Pointing this out isn't what he's doing though.

It seems that he's saying that by calling our forces heroes our country is in some way selling them a bill of goods and this is wrong. He isn't exactly disparaging the troops though.

Well, I'm sorry Mr Rooney but I am glad that they're [ edit this as its not what I meant (there) ]willing to serve and defend our country and I'm willing to do my part to boost their morale in any way and make their time spent in deployment a little less horrible, maybe a bit more bearable and make them seem that the sacrifices that they have made, no matter for what reason a bit more palatable then it's my duty to do that. I'd want the same in return.

That's a better reason to call them heroes than any he provided not to. I just don't get his perception very much.

Oh, and I still don't think they should be there but you already know that. :)

[Dutch]

Ouch. I actually tried to follow that and now I need a smoke.

If you figure out what I said, let us know. :p

[Chubby]

I don't think anyone called him unamerican for his opinion. Just an idiot. If you are heading to statements by some these days that you aren't allowed to disagree with this administration or similar banter, nobody here has suggested that rooney not be allowed to make his statements.

I don't understand why some get bothered by somebody getting bothered at somebody elses bothersome remarks. I get the irony, as my remarks are from being bothered by somebody getting bothered at another's botheredness about an initial bothering remark. I'll stop now.

lol

no, it was just the tone I got from some of the comments who were against what Rooney said when I don't feel he said anything untrue or anything really negative is all.

[Bonegavel]

For the most part, well put Axx http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I don't care what he says, I do idolize our men and women in uniform and i don't do it so they feel good about doing their jobs. It is a natural by-product of what they endure. My heart breaks everytime I hear about another lost. Another daughter losing her dad. Another spouse losing their other half. Another father losing his son. Devestating.

Should I die on my way to work in a wreck, that would be tragic, but unexpected. Freak of nature, random chance. Should a soldier die, that would be tragic because it is expected. He goes where the bullets are. He does his job knowing RPGs are aimed at him. I agree that hero is overused these days, but I'll take the risk of being trite in this case.

[Axxon]

For the most part, well put Axx http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I don't care what he says, I do idolize our men and women in uniform and i don't do it so they feel good about doing their jobs. It is a natural by-product of what they endure. My heart breaks everytime I hear about another lost. Another daughter losing her dad. Another spouse losing their other half. Another father losing his son. Devestating.

Should I die on my way to work in a wreck, that would be tragic, but unexpected. Freak of nature, random chance. Should a soldier die, that would be tragic because it is expected. He goes where the bullets are. He does his job knowing RPGs are aimed at him. I agree that hero is overused these days, but I'll take the risk of being trite in this case.

I do have a more personal stake. I am one of only two male members in my family that didn't serve in the armed forces and I was planning to before other factors in real life changed my plans. I've never lost a family member to combat but it's not that I couldn't have easily enough.

To clarify, I didn't say that I respect them ( idolize is too strong a term ) to make them feel good. I am just saying that the term "hero" when not being used in the strictest sense belongs to any troop in a combat scenario and it does certainly fortify them in tough situations so even if you do feel the word is used too lightly it is a small price to ask to use it when they are serving our country's interests and putting their lives on the line.

[duckman]

Well he's right, they're not heros. Our dear president made sure of that. Because he declared the offensive over, soldiers are not eligable for commendations for their acts of heroism. There'll be no congressional medals of honor for these boys and girls... nope, no matter how many of give up their lives or perform amazing feats above-and-beyond-the-call, they're simply peace-keepers.
I'm am just offended by not only Ronney's comment, but also this attempt by you to take a political shot. I got got some news for you. I served in the USAF from 11/97 to 1/04 so I definitely qualify with what I'm about to say. You CAN receive commendations for comabt in Iraq even after major combat over. It's called 'The War on Terrorism Expeditionary Award'. You CAN also receive 'The Medal of Honor' for fighting in a combat zone. That's right. Iraq is still consider a combat zone. To call them merely "peace keepers" is an insult to every man and woman who serves in the military.

I got into the service due to my social conscience and that I wanted to make a difference in society at large. I wanted to serve a purpose. I didn't do it just pay the bills. We don't get paid all that great.

Well, I did make that contribution. I served in the Kosovo conflict and I served in Operation Noble Eagle. While you were sitting at home at night watch Seinfield or Friends, I was sitting in the back of a "bread truck" in the middle of winter with ice on the flight line recovering and launching AWACS 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Don't call us a peace keeper. I was a soldier. Plain and simple. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_107.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[Havok]

Duckman Rocks.....

[CamEdwards]

here's why those who are serving this country honorably are heroes to me: because I never served.

Putting on the uniform isnt mandatory. In this day and age, you could say that simply joining the military is going above and beyond what's expected of you as an American. You don't have to do it... so those people who choose to defend me and my family are going to be heroes to me. I've made it a point to thank anyone I see in uniform.. I don't care how dorky it is. It's my personal obligation to thank them since I didn't serve myself.

[Chubby]

While I respect those who serve our country, it was also your choice. Merely doing your job, for which you volunteered, in a war I don't support does not qualify you as a hero in my eyes (not a shot at duckman or anyone in particular, i'm just saying in general).

I'm not concerend or know anything about medals so I'll stay outta that one.

A hero is a soldier who risks his life for another. A soldier who stands guard at a tent all day (regardless of where it is) is not a hero IMO.

[Franklinnoble]

here's why those who are serving this country honorably are heroes to me: because I never served.

Putting on the uniform isnt mandatory. In this day and age, you could say that simply joining the military is going above and beyond what's expected of you as an American. You don't have to do it... so those people who choose to defend me and my family are going to be heroes to me. I've made it a point to thank anyone I see in uniform.. I don't care how dorky it is. It's my personal obligation to thank them since I didn't serve myself.
Well put.

My dad enlisted in the army when he was 30 years old. He already had a wife, four kids, and a very successful business. He didn't have to do it at all. He LOST money while he was in the military, and, in fact, he refused all his military pay. He did it just because he felt a need to give something back to his country. That's pretty f*cking heroic, if you ask me.

My brother is currently in the Army, and will probably be flying chinooks in Iraq or Afghanistan soon. He has a college degree from VT, and doesn't NEED to be in the military at all. He does it because his country needs men like him, and, frankly, he's very good at being a soldier. He'd make much better money in the private sector, and he's willing instead to voluntarily risk his life for his country.

[panerd]

While I respect those who serve our country, it was also your choice. Merely doing your job, for which you volunteered, in a war I don't support does not qualify you as a hero in my eyes (not a shot at duckman or anyone in particular, i'm just saying in general).

I'm not concerend or know anything about medals so I'll stay outta that one.

A hero is a soldier who risks his life for another. A soldier who stands guard and picks his ass at a tent all day (regardless of where it is) is not a hero IMO.

I don't have any problem with your message and in fact agree to your main points. However, adding the picking your ass part is an insult to the real jobs that these guys are doing and is doing nothing to get your point across. It is almost like you want people to write back in anger.

[wig]

Chubby has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to military matters.

[CamEdwards]

Chubby has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to military matters.

I think you need to expand the parameters of your statements a little bit. :)

[wig]

I'm sure he'll backload this topic soon enough.

Then we'll see where his true talent lies.

[Chubby]

I don't have any problem with your message and in fact agree to your main points. However, adding the picking your ass part is an insult to the real jobs that these guys are doing and is doing nothing to get your point across. It is almost like you want people to write back in anger.

Edited :D That's just how I talk, i always throw the extra un-needed stuff in there.

[Chubby]

Chubby has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to military matters.

I forgot you do :rolleyes:

[GoldenEagle]

This was so yesterday. :)

[wig]

I forgot you do :rolleyes:

I was in the military.

[Chubby]

I was in the military.
playing with your GI Joes doesn't count. neither does being in the KISS Army for that matter...

[wig]

playing with your GI Joes doesn't count. neither does being in the KISS Army for that matter...

wow, you really are stupid.

[Calis]

This place gives me a headache more often than not anymore.

I wish people would think twice before making comments about things they know nothing about.

[Franklinnoble]

This place gives me a headache more often than not anymore....
Sounds like something my wife would say to me...

[Dutch]

Without getting to excited about this, let me tell you a quick story.

When the first Gulf War started, we launch a massive aerial assault on the communications infrastructure of Iraq, especially it's military command and control. SAM batteries had to be removed simultaniously (surface to air missle batteries).

But just before we could do that, we had to be prepared to defend against Iraqi Mig's (Russian built jet fighters). Every single last plane the Iraqi's put into their attack was destroyed. The planes that were on the ground were destroyed. So Saddam Hussein ordered his air force to fly to Iran (many did, and never returned). The rest remained hidden in bunkers and stayed hidden in bunkers for the duration of the war.

Round 2.

We tell Saddam Hussein that we are going to begin hostilities against him on a certain day and a certain time. We hit him hard with tomahawk missles...I think it was about 200 the first night, that's just a guess, taking out those same command and control sites, SAM sights, whatever. Actually, the SAM sights couldn't be hit if they were mobile and turned off. However, the second they turned those bad boys on, we could triangulate a signal on them, send a fighter over within minutes, and kill it. So their SAM missle batteries were pretty worthless. (They used the tactic quite a bit during peace-time to "lure" American planes to escort Iraqi helicopters out of no-fly zones and then, turn one on once the fighter plane passed it, and fire it's missles. They never hit and we destroyed every SAM they turned on in anger, but the point was being made--our military was bad ass.

But anyway, the real point was that in round 2 of the Gulf War, what did Saddam Hussein do with all those aircraft that he had "saved" in the first Gulf War? Well, he didn't do anything, not a single aircraft ever took off. But not because the runways were all destroyed, or the aircraft bunkers were caved in, but because we saw him bury the planes in the desert sand before hostilities every began.

That's right, he buried his air force in the sand. You can call that what you want, but I call it respect. I call that respect, life saving. Our military might was so powerful that the opposition didn't even want to fight us. That's how you save lives, but sheer dominance.

But you see, we didn't get that sheer dominance by standing in front of a tent, picking our asses. What we were really doing was working in the tent, busting our asses.

And a hero doesn't have to be a killer to be a hero, where were the heroes in our military for getting Saddam Hussein to bury his entire air force in the sand? Don't the people who worked so hard to have this dominance get any credit for saving lives by forcing the adversary to simply quit?

Those people are heroes to me and I thank them for being so good at what they do, and they don't do it for money (most one-term soldiers, sailor's, and airman qualify for food stamps), a vast majority do it because they want to do something for this country. It's a sacrifice, plain and simple.

I don't think any American is safe in Iraq or Afghanistan. They really aren't safe in Qatar or Kuwait or Turkey (I personally was 2 blocks away from a pair of bombs that went off in Ankara that wounded 17 Turkish police and soldiers and was also in Riyahd in '95 when bombs killed a dozen or so U.S. Army officers) or Bahrain or any other place in the Middle East where they are stationed.

You don't go looking to be a hero (because you will get yourself killed behaving like that). But circumstances make heroes. I consider the NYFD and NYPD and countless people in the WTC for their actions on that day. They didn't sign up to be heroes at the earliest convenience, they were just there doing what they were supposed to do. I am proud they were there to "just do their job".

[Schmidty]

The two most over-used words in America today are "paradigm" and "hero". The former is simply a case of dressing up words("example" or "pattern") in order to look more intelligent. The latter is just flung around so much that it has lost almost all meaning in most cases.

[judicial clerk]

I think that maybe Rooney has misstated his point a little bit. What I got from his comments is that we shouldn't just think of our soldiers as heroes or as larger than life, but we should think of them as real people with real fears and problems. This may sound silly, but I feal Rooney wants us to think of our soldiers the way they are portrayed in the movie Saving Private Ryan, not how our sodleirs are portrayed by John Wayne. Rooney is mistaken when he says these soldiers are not heroes. it is heoric that these soldiers are real people with the same hopes and fears that we all share, and yet they still put their lives in harms way.

Dominating an opposing force so completely that they actually bury their air force is impressive. It also proves the point that, while war should be avoided at almost all cost, if you do engage, then you should do so as ruthlessly and with as much force as possible, thereby ending the war more quickly and humanely. I think I am paraphrasing Napolean here.

Finally, I do think Rooney is entitled to his opinion and if I remember correctly, he served in combat in WWII as a soldier or as a field correspondent. If this is true, than he knows more about real combat than probably most of us do and should be shown some level of respect.

[Dutch]

Finally, I do think Rooney is entitled to his opinion and if I remember correctly, he served in combat in WWII as a soldier or as a field correspondent. If this is true, than he knows more about real combat than probably most of us do and should be shown some level of respect.

Very true, the first thing I pointed out in this thread was that I "respect" his opinion. Why? Because to me, Andy Rooney was and is a hero.

Overused? You bet, but thankfully, our actions speak louder than our words, and Andy Rooney, as witty as he is, and as serious as he can be, what he did for us back in WW2 outweighs anything he can do in 2 minutes of television on Monday evening.

[Sun Tzu]

IMO

There are an equal amount of heroes in all walks of life. I don't think there are any more heroes over in Iraq (or any other country we're sending our military to) than there are right here in my home town. I think the american view of the so called "hero" has been badly altered in the last 3-4 years, especialy since 9-11. I have had firefighters in my family, I have had soldiers in my family (in fact my grandfather is a jew that faught in WWII), and I have had police officers in my family. I don't look at these people as any more of a <i>true american hero</i> than the guy down the street who works at joe's bar and grill. Some people want to improve the world by going over to another country and shooting people (yes I know there is much more to it than this, but try to catch the overall point), and some people want to improve the world by making a great steak that we can enjoy with our family on a friday night. How is Moe Shmoe over in Iraq any more of a Hero than Joe Blow in Tulsa who works his butt off to support his wife and 3 kids? There are so many of us that are heroes at what we do.

That being said, I agree with the majority of what Andy Rooney said. I think he dipped into a couple things that might mislead some people into missing his point. However, I think the majority of people who have missed Rooneys point weren't reading his article with half of an open mind. I noticed <b>most</b> of the people who posted that seemed offended made sure to call Rooney names. Two words for those people

Ad Hominem

[Telle]

I'm am just offended by not only Ronney's comment, but also this attempt by you to take a political shot. I got got some news for you. I served in the USAF from 11/97 to 1/04 so I definitely qualify with what I'm about to say. You CAN receive commendations for comabt in Iraq even after major combat over. It's called 'The War on Terrorism Expeditionary Award'. You CAN also receive 'The Medal of Honor' for fighting in a combat zone. That's right. Iraq is still consider a combat zone. To call them merely "peace keepers" is an insult to every man and woman who serves in the military.

I got into the service due to my social conscience and that I wanted to make a difference in society at large. I wanted to serve a purpose. I didn't do it just pay the bills. We don't get paid all that great.

Well, I did make that contribution. I served in the Kosovo conflict and I served in Operation Noble Eagle. While you were sitting at home at night watch Seinfield or Friends, I was sitting in the back of a "bread truck" in the middle of winter with ice on the flight line recovering and launching AWACS 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Don't call us a peace keeper. I was a soldier. Plain and simple.

So what would you call people involved in a peace-keeping mission? Sounds like "peace-keepers" to me.

I admint, I don't know EXACTLY which commendations are still available to those military personel engaged in peace-keeping missions, but I know it's a lot less than those available for military personel that are actively engaged in war combat. I got this from reading a Newsweek article a month or so ago about a particular group of troups that are currently in Iraq. I was shocked when I read about their leader lemmenting the fact that these soldiers who were risking their lives on a daily basis would not be eligable for what they deserved simply because the president declared that the war was over. It seemed reprehensible to me that these men would be seen as somehow doing something less merely because the man in charge of this country decided to have a great photo-op standing in front of a big banner and declaring the war over.

[Dutch]

Telle,

Either you misinterpreted the article, or more likely, the article was intentionally left open to misinterpretation to help it's "shock" appeal. It's called newstainment these days for a reason.

[CamEdwards]

I disagree with the notion that "once a hero, always a hero" and therefore Andy Rooney deserves our respect. I think his heroic actions in WWII have been nullified by his recent statement, as well as previous statements attacking blacks.

Remember, Robert E. Lee wore a U.S. uniform at one time... but he's no hero of mine.*






*I think I'm now officially not allowed to live in Virginia.

[Franklinnoble]

I disagree with the notion that "once a hero, always a hero" and therefore Andy Rooney deserves our respect. I think his heroic actions in WWII have been nullified by his recent statement, as well as previous statements attacking blacks.

Remember, Robert E. Lee wore a U.S. uniform at one time... but he's no hero of mine.*






*I think I'm now officially not allowed to live in Virginia.
No kidding.

What's your beef with Lee?

[Blitz]

I'm in the military. I've been in 10 years. I've always worked in an office. My idea of a rough day is coffee that's too strong, or the printer not working. I'm not a hero by any means. I'm just a guy in the military who goes to work, does my job, and goes home. Granted, I'm in northern Japan, and I'm an intel analyst, but I'm no hero.

As far as guys who get deployed to Iraq. Andy Rooney is partially right. There are lots of guys and gals over there who aren't heroes. I'd hardly call a mail clerk who works at a postal facility in Kuwait a hero. The front line guys and gals, who are being shot at, have to keep one eye open while they're asleep, and have to wonder if that mine is hot, if that kid has a bomb strapped to himself, they're the heroes.

[Dutch]

I'm in the military. I've been in 10 years. I've always worked in an office. My idea of a rough day is coffee that's too strong, or the printer not working. I'm not a hero by any means. I'm just a guy in the military who goes to work, does my job, and goes home. Granted, I'm in northern Japan, and I'm an intel analyst, but I'm no hero.

As far as guys who get deployed to Iraq. Andy Rooney is partially right. There are lots of guys and gals over there who aren't heroes. I'd hardly call a mail clerk who works at a postal facility in Kuwait a hero. The front line guys and gals, who are being shot at, have to keep one eye open while they're asleep, and have to wonder if that mine is hot, if that kid has a bomb strapped to himself, they're the heroes.

While your efforts as an intel analyst in Northern Japan may seem un-important, perhaps your next post will be analyzing terrorist traffic in or near Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. The fact that you are fully qualified to do that job and are prepared to do that job means a lot.

Hell, the fact that people are sitting around watching college football on New Years Day in their nice homes with their nice TV's while you are heading in for a mid-shift, driving on the wrong side of the fucking road, slipping around on the ice that forms all over those damnd roads, maybe you are just getting off a shift, you slip your parka on, head out to your car and the engine is frozen. You can't get it to turn over, and your feet and fingers are going numb while you are sitting there in the dark trying to get home to a warm bed. Or it does start, and you head on up the hill and hit a patch of ice, you know the one, where there is no stop-sign, and you do a couple of donuts in the dark. Sucks don't it. Why the fuck are you driving around in the middle of nowhere-Japan freezing to death, while everybody else is back home in the States living it up, having a great time and making a fair ammount of money to boot?

You are making sacrifices, whether you know it or not.

I'm glad you are there, brother.

[Blitz]

You sound like you've been here ;)

Thanks for the kind words. :)

[panerd]

While your efforts as an intel analyst in Northern Japan may seem un-important, perhaps your next post will be analyzing terrorist traffic in or near Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. The fact that you are fully qualified to do that job and are prepared to do that job means a lot.

Hell, the fact that people are sitting around watching college football on New Years Day in their nice homes with their nice TV's while you are heading in for a mid-shift, driving on the wrong side of the fucking road, slipping around on the ice that forms all over those damnd roads, maybe you are just getting off a shift, you slip your parka on, head out to your car and the engine is frozen. You can't get it to turn over, and your feet and fingers are going numb while you are sitting there in the dark trying to get home to a warm bed. Or it does start, and you head on up the hill and hit a patch of ice, you know the one, where there is no stop-sign, and you do a couple of donuts in the dark. Sucks don't it. Why the fuck are you driving around in the middle of nowhere-Japan freezing to death, while everybody else is back home in the States living it up, having a great time and making a fair ammount of money to boot?

You are making sacrifices, whether you know it or not.

I'm glad you are there, brother.

Agree 100%, but isn't this also true for firemen and police officers? And to a lesser extent teachers and garbage men? I don't believe any of these occupations are heroes just because of the occupation. But I certainly believe that all of them do a job that is very unappealing to most people in the working force due to danger, low pay, and/or working conditions. Why the fuck is someone sitting at home watching their nice TV while a man takes away their Chinesse leftovers in the trash? Or someone raises thier child in school? Or someone arrests a man about to break into their house? I think there is a very fine line between being a hero and doing a undervalued and/or underappreiated job for reasons other than the norm.

[Telle]

Telle,

Either you misinterpreted the article, or more likely, the article was intentionally left open to misinterpretation to help it's "shock" appeal. It's called newstainment these days for a reason.

Here's the quote from the article: "The One-Eighth conducts raids and patrols seven days a week with almost no R&R and even less appreciation. Though his men risk their lives every day, Brown complains he can put them in only for 'peacetime' commendations; the Army is still officially pretending the war ended in May."

Yes, there's definately some bias/spin in there, but it happens to be bias that I agree with. I think it was ridiculous for Bush to declare things over as early as he did. Obviously the conditions the men and women of our armed forces in Iraq are enduring are nowhere near that of "peacetime", and I feel that they are being denied the honor due to them. It seems to me that these people who should be considered war-time heros are instead stuck with the label of peace-keepers simply because of political reasons.

[Dutch]

Agree 100%, but isn't this also true for firemen and police officers? And to a lesser extent teachers and garbage men? I don't believe any of these occupations are heroes just because of the occupation. But I certainly believe that all of them do a job that is very unappealing to most people in the working force due to danger, low pay, and/or working conditions. Why the fuck is someone sitting at home watching their nice TV while a man takes away their Chinesse leftovers in the trash? Or someone raises thier child in school? Or someone arrests a man about to break into their house? I think there is a very fine line between being a hero and doing a undervalued and/or underappreiated job for reasons other than the norm.

I would never suggest anyone is excluded from being a hero. There are also things called role-models, and that term is not used enough.

[Axxon]

I would never suggest anyone is excluded from being a hero. There are also things called role-models, and that term is not used enough.


Agreed and when it's used it's usually in regards to professional athlete when there's no reason that athletes should be held to a higher standard than anyone else.

[Dutch]

Here's the quote from the article: "The One-Eighth conducts raids and patrols seven days a week with almost no R&R and even less appreciation. Though his men risk their lives every day, Brown complains he can put them in only for 'peacetime' commendations; the Army is still officially pretending the war ended in May."

Yes, there's definately some bias/spin in there, but it happens to be bias that I agree with. I think it was ridiculous for Bush to declare things over as early as he did. Obviously the conditions the men and women of our armed forces in Iraq are enduring are nowhere near that of "peacetime", and I feel that they are being denied the honor due to them. It seems to me that these people who should be considered war-time heros are instead stuck with the label of peace-keepers simply because of political reasons.

Well, you were right, there was definately some spin. A quick check of the internet and I find this Army Memo from the 9th of September, 2003. That's after major combat operations against Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard ended and 3 months prior to the Newsweek Article that couldn't bother to check it's story's "facts". The mass media journalism ethics is a very frustrating topic for me lately.

https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/tagd/awards/CFLCC_OI.pdf

It's a pain to read, as are all Army documents. The gist is that this explains how commanders get their troops the combat medals they deserve. Everything from Silver Stars down to Purple Hearts are mentioned.

[Telle]

Well, you were right, there was definately some spin. A quick check of the internet and I find this Army Memo from the 9th of September, 2003. That's after major combat operations against Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard ended and 3 months prior to the Newsweek Article that couldn't bother to check it's story's "facts". The mass media journalism ethics is a very frustrating topic for me lately.

https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/tagd/awards/CFLCC_OI.pdf

It's a pain to read, as are all Army documents. The gist is that this explains how commanders get their troops the combat medals they deserve. Everything from Silver Stars down to Purple Hearts are mentioned.

Wow, that was really informative. Thank you for finding that. Now I just wonder why the person they were interviewing wasn't aware of this.. seems like the troops he's in charge of could be missing out on some honors due to them if he didn't know that they were eligable.

Well I guess I can cross one item off of my "why I can't stand Bush" list.. only a nearly infinite number to go :)