Mac Howard SAAP

[druez]

I was at your site yesterday. I downloaded the demo. I have to admit, the game is a bit intriguging. I miss the pretty menu's and the more professional look of CM, but I'm still willing to give the game a go.

Could you answer a question for me? I couldn't figure out how to do it from the demo. Maybe, I need the full version.

Can I take a team like Scarborough that is in the conference and work them up the ladder, to division I etc... I'm a LLM type of player and I didn't see that option in the demo.

Thanks in advance...

[PilotMan]

Yea, you can druez, I think that you start in DIII, and you can work them up to the top.

[Mac Howard]

You can customise the game to allow you to manage Scarborough but only partially in the demo and as PilotMan has said starting from Division 3 - it'll be Division 2 in SaaP 2005 due in a couple of weeks when the new season stuff is included because the real world league setup has been renamed.

In the demo, when the League module opens up select "start a game" and then change the random default team you're given. Choose to "name your own team" and add Scarborough. You'll then be asked which division you want to start from.

The players you get will be fictitious and with the demo you can't do anything about this. Their skills will be scaled according to the division you've chosen.

With the full game you get an edit program and you can replace a database team with the Scarborough squad and club info and then select that from the start. Or you can use an old customisation program which is still sent out with the full game and change the fictitious players that you're given when you name your own team. You can define your own Scarborough squad.

If you like I could attach the edit program (probably the best way to bring in Scarborough) to an email and send it to you. Email me at

saap at machoward.com

and I'll reply by return (of course replace the "at" with @ and remove the spaces)

[Desnudo]

Please tell me what SaaP is.

[Danny]

Sick as a Parrot, it's Mac Howard's soccer management sim.

[Mac Howard]

As EagleEye says, it's a soccer management game. It's biased more towards role-playing than stats. You can read a review of an earlier version here:

hxxp://sgh.soccergaming.com/sgh_main.php?ViewReview=105

[druez]

Mac where did you get the name from?

[CraigSca]

Can't I sue someone for using my surname to name a town in England? Can I write my congressman about that?

[daedalus]

Sick as a Parrot is an underrated game, in my opinion. A lot of people get turned off by the lack of graphics but it has a lot of good quality. If you enjoy soccer management games and is looking for an alternative to or perhaps a complement to SI's then it's worth a look (well, more than a look . . . the game takes actually giving a full effort to learn and enjoy it).

[druez]

Sick as a Parrot is an underrated game, in my opinion. A lot of people get turned off by the lack of graphics but it has a lot of good quality. If you enjoy soccer management games and is looking for an alternative to or perhaps a complement to SI's then it's worth a look (well, more than a look . . . the game takes actually giving a full effort to learn and enjoy it).

Complement to SI would be what I want. I love CM03/04 but the approach Mac takes is so much more RPG oriented. I find it very intriguing.

[Axxon]

Sick as a Parrot is an underrated game, in my opinion. A lot of people get turned off by the lack of graphics but it has a lot of good quality. If you enjoy soccer management games and is looking for an alternative to or perhaps a complement to SI's then it's worth a look (well, more than a look . . . the game takes actually giving a full effort to learn and enjoy it).

I think it's a good game at well. The only thing that stops me from playing it much is that you can't alt-tab out of it. If Mac ever changes that I will play it a lot more.

[daedalus]

I think it's a good game at well. The only thing that stops me from playing it much is that you can't alt-tab out of it. If Mac ever changes that I will play it a lot more.Concur. The game will never be a consideration for me as long as I cannot alt-tab. One, I like to do a number of things while I'm playing games. Two, I don't like having someone dictate to me how I should game.

[Desnudo]

I took a brief look and it seems intriguing. It looks like a lot of detail went into the various aspects. One thing I'd like to see is the text appear all at once, rather than like a typewriter.

[Mac Howard]

Top left hand corner, Desnudo is a button labelled "stoccato". That will toggle between real time speech (word by word - stoccato) and the message all at once. Just click on it once and the next message will come on screen in opposite mode to the previous one or you can click on it during the stoccato speech.

[mattwakeman]

Mac where did you get the name from?

I'll be rude and answer this question for Mac. Footballers, like most sportsman, have spent more of their time playing their sport than getting an education so they tend to talk mostly in cliches. And football has thrown up a few phrases that have entered into the language in Britain. SAAP just means bitterly disappointed. It's mirror opposite (for those who wish to sound as though they learnt to speak colloquial English in the 70s) is 'Over the moon'. Perhaps Mac will be saving this one in case he ever decides to do a sequel! :D

[Mac Howard]

Nah! I have thought about Over the Moon but there's something unappealing about it - it certainly doesn't have the impact or is as unforgetable as Sick as a Parrot. Even if someone doesn't know the meaning they often want to find out :)

What did suprise me was when I came to take a domain name both Sick as a Parrot and SAAP were taken :(

[andy m]

man, talking of football phrases and such like... brian clough was on the radio this morning. i miss the old bastard! he was still totally on form.

"i admire myself... i admire what i achieved"

genius.

[condors]

well i just want to add my 2 cents on SAAP

IMHO it has the best player development system i have ever seen. There is nothing more enjoyable than watching/tracking your youth players growth and the game makes player morale and commintment(sp) very important 11 "average" players who are happy and committed can get results and 11 stars can go through a bad patchs enough to cost you your job :)

I think part of the key of getting into saap is your imagination. If you can make a mental pictures of the information you get about a player and for me keeping a notebook handy while i play the game is one of my all time favorites and timesinks.

[mattwakeman]

man, talking of football phrases and such like... brian clough was on the radio this morning. i miss the old bastard! he was still totally on form.

"i admire myself... i admire what i achieved"

genius.

Well quite, but what about the unforgettable Ron-ster (or he who is no more) with 'Early doors' and his intriguing remarks about players eyebrows. What a shame he threw it all away by being a twat.

[Mac Howard]

Druez asked a question on my forum and you guys may well be interested in the answer:

Yes, there is a reasonable simulation of the MLS in SaaP.

Clough certainly was an entertainment to watch/listen to. I loved his treatment of difficult questions from the press : "Now listen to me, boy, and yur might learn something!" Mourinho is a novice by comparison :)

[Desnudo]

Top left hand corner, Desnudo is a button labelled "stoccato". That will toggle between real time speech (word by word - stoccato) and the message all at once. Just click on it once and the next message will come on screen in opposite mode to the previous one or you can click on it during the stoccato speech.

Cool, thanks for the info.

[andy m]

Well quite, but what about the unforgettable Ron-ster (or he who is no more) with 'Early doors' and his intriguing remarks about players eyebrows. What a shame he threw it all away by being a twat.

atkinston was definitely a character. the daft racist.

[Desnudo]

Bought and I'm definitely looking forward to playing it in-depth. Can anyone please tell me how I get my youth squad players onto my main team and vice-versa. Also, how do you put people on the reserve squad? Thanks. And is there a forum for this somewhere?

Edit: I figured out how to promote people to my main squad, but how do I send U20s back down?

[druez]

Bought and I'm definitely looking forward to playing it in-depth. Can anyone please tell me how I get my youth squad players onto my main team and vice-versa. Also, how do you put people on the reserve squad? Thanks. And is there a forum for this somewhere?

Edit: I figured out how to promote people to my main squad, but how do I send U20s back down?

www.machoward.com/forum

[Buddy Grant]

www.machoward.com/forum
Druez, this is your 666th post (as of Sunday @ 4:47 PM)

[Mac Howard]

To move a youth player into the premier squad "Talk to" the player and you'll see a "promote to senior squad" option.

Don't worry too much about the reserve squad - there's only one advantage in having a player there, he won't complain about not getting playing time in the first team. So when you first promote a youth player you have the option to put him into the reserve squad to keep his expectations of first team football in check. But if you were to drop a player from the premier squad to the reserve squad then his commitment would drop so much he would be useless to you.

The reserve team is picked by your reserve team coach from whatever players are left over after your first team selection (a good way to bring a long term injury back to fitness and form or allow a player to build confidence is to delay his return and your coach will pick him for the reserve team games) and the best of the youth squad if necessary.

The one disadvantage is that if you select him for the first team regularly then he'll complain that he isn't being payed enough for his increased importance to the club and demand a better contract.

[SlapBone]

Druez, this is your 666th post (as of Sunday @ 4:47 PM)


See Druez... I always said you were a Satanist.

[Desnudo]

To move a youth player into the premier squad "Talk to" the player and you'll see a "promote to senior squad" option.

Don't worry too much about the reserve squad - there's only one advantage in having a player there, he won't complain about not getting playing time in the first team. So when you first promote a youth player you have the option to put him into the reserve squad to keep his expectations of first team football in check. But if you were to drop a player from the premier squad to the reserve squad then his commitment would drop so much he would be useless to you.

The reserve team is picked by your reserve team coach from whatever players are left over after your first team selection (a good way to bring a long term injury back to fitness and form or allow a player to build confidence is to delay his return and your coach will pick him for the reserve team games) and the best of the youth squad if necessary.

The one disadvantage is that if you select him for the first team regularly then he'll complain that he isn't being payed enough for his increased importance to the club and demand a better contract.

Thanks for the info. So far I've managed to take Arsenal into midtable obscurity. I can't score, but don't let many in either = 11th place. It's been a real challenge trying to figure out the right combos without numbers in front of you. At least I got them a new GK.

[Mac Howard]

It's a good idea if you're new to SaaP to play conservatively unless you're confident about what you're doing. Losing matches at the start of a season can knock confidence and it can be difficult to get it back and you can struggle all season.

[Desnudo]

I finally got my formation sorted out. I managed to finish 4th and lost in the FA Cup final. Granted it's with Arsenal and on level 4, but I'll take it. ;)

[druez]

After playing this game for 3 days, I just don't get it. The interface is very clunky and the match play is terrible. There is no startegy to the match play at all. The formations are not accurate and I can't even put a sweeper into play.

Sorry Mac, I like some of your ideas but overall this game is a big thumbs down. If you are going to have zero numbers, you have to give us the information we need in an easier to access format. I'm not going to use a notebook to take notes while I play.

The whole alt-tab thing was what finally broke me. I wish you luck, but Its fully back to CM 03/04 for me.

Good luck to you.

[Karim]

This thread made me download the demo ... again. It must have been the fourth or fifth time I've done so but I agree with druez's assessment. Also, the dark background, something I hate at the best of times, didn't endear me either. I find it difficult to easily see where everything is. No numbers is something I wouldn't mind seeing in other games but SaaP just didn't work for me. Sorry.

[Desnudo]

I'm enjoying it more than you two, but I understand your complaints. My major one centers around not being able to tell how people are progressing easily. I don't need to see stats, but it should be much clearer how much players are improving. No stats doesn't mean the coach is blind does it?

[Mac Howard]

Obviously I'm very disappointed that you should react this way.

>Also, the dark background, something I hate at the best of times, didn't endear me either

This is what troubles me. You criticise without making any effort to see if there's a solution.

It needs one click on the opening screen to change the background to something that suits you. You have a choice of the dark graphic backgrounds, a pale shaded blue background or a plain coloured background with a choice of colours. You can also introduce your own customised background by the simple inclusion of a 640x480 bitmap.

I've set it up so you can click on the various options and choose exactly what you want. The lighter background is just one click away.

Druez - the idea is that you should discover the qualities of the players as part of the progress of the game. That's one of the challenges. This "convenient" display of how the players are developing is a myth that comes out of the numbers game - that there is some accurate, objective source of information easily available and that will take away the need to judge for yourself.

As in the real world you need to experiment with players, note their performances and build up an mental understanding of the player's qualities, their current form, fitness etc. The information on players skills should be in your head. If asked to choose the starting squad of your favourite real-world club would you need a notebook and pencil or would you do it from your mental understanding of the players? Thus in SaaP!

I'm disappointed, druez, you said nothing about the answer I gave you on the SaaP forum about the alt-tab problem. Here it is in brief:

Load up your alternative program(s) and minimise it(them). Then load your game. If you want to use an alternative program then hit the close button top right. It will save the game and close it in just four seconds. Maximise the alternative program. You want to go back to SaaP, it takes just 9 seconds to minimise you alternative program and load up SaaP and take you to where you left off.

4 seconds and 9 seconds is that really a problem by Windows standards?

Why? Stability!

SaaP is one of the most stable Windows programs you will come across. Every version from Windows from 3.1 to XP to 2000 runs SaaP well. Windows crashes come mainly from interaction of programs. Avoid that and the stability is an order of ten better. The speed of SaaP allows you to do that and still move between programs with little delay.

Again, I'm disappointed at your reaction. It is difficult I know to come to a totally different approach to a game when you have so much experience of another. But ask yourself why users rate this game so much higher than you. Why do users on the independant soccergaming site rate SaaP at 8.6 and CM03/04 at 8.1? Are they all fools or have they seen something you've missed?

[Eaglesfan27]

I've played dozens of games that seem to have no problem with alt-tab causing stability problems. The lack of the ability to alt-tab out of the game is costing you quite a few customers I dare imagine. It's the main reason I don't play the game. I read your work around, and those numbers don't sound bad but why is there a stability problem when many other games don't have that problem?

[Mac Howard]

Other games do have a stability problem, Eaglesfan. CM 03/04 will crash for me every time I try to alt-tab on this bog standard XP machine for example.

How many games will run on Win 3.1 through to XP? Very few.

I'm not talking about crashing every time you use a game but the problem with crashing with a text sim is that months of work can disappear in an instant. One crash can be a disaster.

You can use multiple programs with SaaP because of the speed. There is no problem, it's just a different method. Also there is no waiting in SaaP for processing of data - again it's speed (it's not Windows bloatware) means that all processing is invisible to the user - so there's no need to go to other programs to pass the time while processing is taking place.

It really isn't a problem - I do it all the time when developing. 4 seconds and I'm using the alternative, 9 seconds and I'm back. No problem! (which is why I know the timing so well :) )

[Eaglesfan27]

I alt-tab out of CM 03/04 all the time. I'm doing it right now (as I have been most of the day.) It's essential to do this in CM 03/04 because it takes a while to process particularly during the transfer periods. I admit that I've never really played the demo of SaaP, so I'll ask: How long does it take to process a day (or period of time) in SaaP? If it is longer than a minute or so, that is where it would be important to me as a potential customer to have the ability to alt-tab out of the game.

I'll tell you CM has made me more interested in soccer over the past year, and I'm tempted to try SaaP. However, I don't know enough about the various real soccer players to have that mental image in my mind of who I would start with most teams. Despite that, I'm intrigued by this game as I've talked to a friend about it a few times.


Other games do have a stability problem, Eaglesfan. CM 03/04 will crash for me every time I try to alt-tab on this bog standard XP machine for example.

How many games will run on Win 3.1 through to XP? Very few.

I'm not talking about crashing every time you use a game but the problem with crashing with a text sim is that months of work can disappear in an instant. One crash can be a disaster.

You can use multiple programs with SaaP because of the speed. There is no problem, it's just a different method. Also there is no waiting in SaaP for processing of data - again it's speed (it's not Windows bloatware) means that all processing is invisible to the user - so there's no need to go to other programs to pass the time while processing is taking place.

It really isn't a problem - I do it all the time when developing. 4 seconds and I'm using the alterative, 9 seconds and I'm back. No problem! (which is why I know the timing so well :) )

[Karim]

Obviously I'm very disappointed that you should react this way.

>Also, the dark background, something I hate at the best of times, didn't endear me either

This is what troubles me. You criticise without making any effort to see if there's a solution.

It needs one click on the opening screen to change the background to something that suits you. You have a choice of the dark graphic backgrounds, a pale shaded blue background or a plain coloured background with a choice of colours. You can also introduce your own customised background by the simple inclusion of a 640x480 bitmap.

I've set it up so you can click on the various options and choose exactly what you want. The lighter background is just one click away.
Ok. I finally found it. I was looking for something called "Game Setup" or "Options" and didn't realize there were buttons at the top that enabled the change. My vision isn't very good with dark colours. Thanks. I'll give it a go.

[Mac Howard]

>How long does it take to process a day (or period of time) in SaaP? If it is longer than a minute or so, that is where it would be important to me as a potential customer to have the ability to alt-tab out of the game.

There are no discernable delays whatsoever in SaaP. It processes data as you play and I doubt you will ever see more than 3 or 4 seconds delay anywhere. There is no need to exit the game from that point of view.

>I'll tell you CM has made me more interested in soccer over the past year, and I'm tempted to try SaaP. However, I don't know enough about the various real soccer players to have that mental image in my mind of who I would start with most teams. Despite that, I'm intrigued by this game as I've talked to a friend about it a few times.

The two games take a completely different approach. By far the most obvious is the presentation of player data. In CM it's a given - the numbers tell you most of what yoiu need to know. In SaaP building an understanding of the players is a significant part of the challenge of the game. You begin with an approximate understanding of the players gained from talking to the coaches and scouts. This is imprecise, subjective and verbal. From there on you develop your understanding by experimenting with team selection and defining training schedules. You build your understanding on the performance of players on the field of play and in training (you get reports from the coaches).

The balance between squad building through trading and coaching is also a significant difference. In CM there's a much greater emphasis on trading and what I call the "external world" - other clubs, other leagues. In SaaP the emphasis is on coaching, player motivation, tactics etc.

SaaP is not a "stats sim" (I prefer that term to text sim). It's a role playing game where you interact with players, coaches, scouts etc. The interface is very different - you "talk to" players etc. You have tasks to carry out through the week. Everything is aimed at the coming match. Data is verbal not numeric. It's mainly opinion and you have to apply whatever standards of credibility you feel necessary. Some coaches and scouts are better than others and part of the challenge is to build up a quality team of these.

There are three review quotes that I like to use because they sum the game up well:

"It's a far more lucid description of management."

"It's the thinking fan's management game."

"It's the only game that seems to know what the soccer manager really does."

That second, incidentally, was not meant as a compliment (by the same reviewer who called the original CM "the worst game ever to pass throug this office"so I'm not sure how much credibility he has).

The last was from a San Francisco sports journalist.

I don't think I'm being arrogant in saying that these quotes depict SaaP as an intelligent, challenging, realistic game. I'm happy with that.

But it is VERY different to the traditional game (which I enjoy as much as anyone when I can find the time). It demands that the gamer take a completely different approach and that he get used to an unusual interface (interfacing with people not data). And this is SaaP's major problem. Most people have spent years playing the traditional game and it does require them to "unlearn" what they've learnt from this. Some don't want to. Some don't see the need. A few do :)

The whole idea behind SaaP is a very ambitious one and I don't pretend that SaaP represents it well. I'm just one man working on a massive project (CM is produced by a team of eleven). The soccer management game really is an enormous game these days. So I'm not in total disagreement with those who say it's "unprofessional" or looks unfinished. I concentrate on the implementing the ideas and rely on users to understand that.

But many of the ideas are reasonably implemented though, by their very nature, they tend not to be obvious. Many of the qualities of SaaP have to be teased out - indeed that is part of the challenge of the game. It makes great demands on your judgement. But these are judgements that we make every day in our interaction with the real world of soccer and they are well within the capability of the average fan. Unfortunately I often get the impression that the traditional game, with it's give-away approach, causes fans to lose that ability whenever they get in front of a computer screen depicting a smg :)

Anyway, I'm off to the BigSoccer forum where I expect to find my fellow Man Utd fans in deep depression after the team failed yet again to put away a team that shouldn't have been a problem yesterday :rolleyes:

[Mac Howard]

>Ok. I finally found it. I was looking for something called "Game Setup" or "Options" and didn't realize there were buttons at the top that enabled the change. My vision isn't very good with dark colours. Thanks. I'll give it a go.

Sorry if I seemed a little sharp, karim, I get a little frustrated when I go to some lengths to provide a solution and my efforts are missed :)

The interface in SaaP isn't a tribute to Bill Gates - it's designed to suit the game not conform to the best idea for manipulating symbolic data. In this case the user can decide on just how he prefers to see that game before he even enters it. Clicking on those options will change the opening screen as you click and reveal exactly how the game will appear right there. If, after playing the game, you decide that another option might be better then you can try it with a single click next time you load up the game. That strikes me as being better than burying the option in some drop down menu.

[druez]

Druez - the idea is that you should discover the qualities of the players as part of the progress of the game. That's one of the challenges. This "convenient" display of how the players are developing is a myth that comes out of the numbers game - that there is some accurate, objective source of information easily available and that will take away the need to judge for yourself.



No, how about a "convenient way to set my lineup"? Based on the fact you create your first lineups based on what your coaches tell you about the players. I can't even set a lineup from my asst. coaches ranking list. No this process is very cumbersome.

You are kidding yourself if you think a real life manager would come into a team and randomly play different players, with no scouting on them. He would get input from the organization, scouts and from his own observations. But, since the match engine is so well crap, how is this possible. There is ZERO pbp and ZERO tactcs involved in a game.

Not to mention the information provided to you is ambigious and hard to discern.



As in the real world you need to experiment with players, note their performances and build up an mental understanding of the player's qualities, their current form, fitness etc. The information on players skills should be in your head. If asked to choose the starting squad of your favourite real-world club would you need a notebook and pencil or would you do it from your mental understanding of the players? Thus in SaaP!



This is the age of computers, umm how about you letting us keep notes on our computer. OH NO THATS RIGHT WE CAN'T RUN IT IN WINDOWS MODE!!!!



I'm disappointed, druez, you said nothing about the answer I gave you on the SaaP forum about the alt-tab problem. Here it is in brief:


Because your answer is crap and not what I asked for. You are a windows hater. I work with someone who has to be your brother on a daily basis. He designed our entired drilling program to be anti windows. Now that we were bought by a big company, we are redoing the whole damn thing because he hated Bill Gates. I know the type....



Load up your alternative program(s) and minimise it(them). Then load your game. If you want to use an alternative program then hit the close button top right. It will save the game and close it in just four seconds. Maximise the alternative program. You want to go back to SaaP, it takes just 9 seconds to minimise you alternative program and load up SaaP and take you to where you left off.

4 seconds and 9 seconds is that really a problem by Windows standards?

Why? Stability!

SaaP is one of the most stable Windows programs you will come across. Every version from Windows from 3.1 to XP to 2000 runs SaaP well. Windows crashes come mainly from interaction of programs. Avoid that and the stability is an order of ten better. The speed of SaaP allows you to do that and still move between programs with little delay.

Again, I'm disappointed at your reaction. It is difficult I know to come to a totally different approach to a game when you have so much experience of another. But ask yourself why users rate this game so much higher than you. Why do users on the independant soccergaming site rate SaaP at 8.6 and CM03/04 at 8.1? Are they all fools or have they seen something you've missed?

Hey someone people still like the commodore hence the emmulators on the internet. Not to mention its pretty easy to stack that poll on the website :).

On a another note, SaaP crashed on me once starting a match. CM 03/04 has never crashed on my computer. SaaP Crashed 5 different times when my monitor turned off because I walked away from my CPU.

Mac, I was expecting quite a bit more. You don't offer the same feature set as other soccer sims, nor do you have an easy to navigate interface and to top it all off the match engine itself is total crap.

No strategy at all other then deciding when to go 110%... Ok have a good day. If you ever decide to come to the year 2004 with your program, please post about it here. Like I said, your ideas are good but the Implementation leaves quite a bit to be desired.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Wow, if this were Doom 3 and Mac were a demon, druez looks like he's running in with flashlight blazing.

[SlapBone]

Wow, if this were Doom 3 and Mac were a demon, druez looks like he's running in with flashlight blazing.

Don't get me started about that retarded flashlight.

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://www.twyst.org/~pumpy/images/emot-dance.gif

[McSweeny]

well it's been awhile since we've had a good Mac Howard vs. Disgruntled gamer match...

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://www.twyst.org/~pumpy/images/popcorn.gif

[Mac Howard]

>well it's been awhile since we've had a good Mac Howard vs. Disgruntled gamer match...

Druez isn't criticising the game. He's reacting to the fact that I questioned his criticism. There is no one less able to accept criticism than a critic.

This for example:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because your answer is crap and not what I asked for. You are a windows hater. I work with someone who has to be your brother on a daily basis. He designed our entired drilling program to be anti windows. Now that we were bought by a big company, we are redoing the whole damn thing because he hated Bill Gates. I know the type....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is just an ignorant rant. It's worthless.

The crash he refers to isn't a problem between SaaP and Windows as he would have you believe, it's a code bug which I'm currently trying to isolate. It's a bug that has been discussed on my board over the last couple of days and druez has grabbed hold of it and is misusing it to oppose my statement that SaaP is exceptionally stable.

His comment that there are zero tactics is complete garbage. His comment that the user rating on the soccergaming site is stacked is a disgraceful slur that says more about him than it does about me.

For those who wonder if there really is any depth to the game, or indeed tactical challenges, I'll leave it to a user who's taken the trouble to understand the game:

hxxp://www.machoward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116

[druez]

>well it's been awhile since we've had a good Mac Howard vs. Disgruntled gamer match...

Druez isn't criticising the game. He's reacting to the fact that I questioned his criticism. There is no one less able to accept criticism than a critic.

This for example:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because your answer is crap and not what I asked for. You are a windows hater. I work with someone who has to be your brother on a daily basis. He designed our entired drilling program to be anti windows. Now that we were bought by a big company, we are redoing the whole damn thing because he hated Bill Gates. I know the type....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is just an ignorant rant. It's worthless.

The crash he refers to isn't a problem between SaaP and Windows as he would have you believe, it's a code bug which I'm currently trying to isolate. It's a bug that has been discussed on my board over the last couple of days and druez has grabbed hold of it and is misusing it to oppose my statement that SaaP is exceptionally stable.

His comment that there are zero tactics is complete garbage. His comment that the user rating on the soccergaming site is stacked is a disgraceful slur that says more about him than it does about me.

For those who wonder if there really is any depth to the game, or indeed tactical challenges, I'll leave it to a user who's taken the trouble to understand the game:

hxxp://www.machoward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116

The crash on your board was regarding two different countries then the one I'm currently playing in. I believe you said it was from guys being developed higher then the game would allow. This is not what I'm experiencing in either case. A crash is a crash MAC.


Please tell me about the tactics in your game.

Can you give orders to certain players?

Can you have a sweeper?

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?

Can you tell them to push the ball down the flanks?

NO, NO and NO Can you pick who does your free kicks etc. etc. etc.

Which means there are no tactics.


Since, I've seen a good many of people ask for the alt-tab and state they won't play without it, I think the rant is ok. This is 2004, remember that.

[SlapBone]

Anyway, I'm off to the BigSoccer forum where I expect to find my fellow Man Utd fans in deep depression after the team failed yet again to put away a team that shouldn't have been a problem yesterday :rolleyes:

How the hell does anyone outside Manchester become a Man Utd fan? Have you sought counseling for this?

[condors]

druez-you actually can do the things you mentioned it is just not the way you are used to.

Can you give orders to certain players?
there is an individual training setting doing this will affect what he does in the game

Can you have a sweeper?
position a defender right in the middle in front of the keeper

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?
Train your play pace/aggression during the week to get them to play that way in the game, also you can set them to defend

Can you tell them to push the ball down the flanks?
you can move you midefielder wide and move them up if you like

If you want help just let me know, i would be glad to offer some, i have been playing SAAP for some time and have learned alot about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, outside looking in here, you've brought me to a question.

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?
Train your play pace/aggression during the week to get them to play that way in the game, also you can set them to defend

That seems rather counter-intuitive to me, here's why:
Practicing a skill/formation/tactic whatever should logically make you better at it. But it doesn't seem to make sense that you have to practice it to make it happen (which is how I read your comment).

To borrow from American football for an analogy: Just because I didn't spend any/much time working on my pass rush this week shouldn't mean that I can't tell the D-Line "Look, this guy is killing us, we've got to concentrate on getting to him". They may not be as effective at it as they would be if we'd focused on that in practice the previous week, but I still should be able to tell them to make that a primary focus.

Or, maybe better yet from basketball: Just because my guys haven't spent extra time practicing from behind the 3-pt line shouldn't mean I can't get them to start jacking up trey's in the final minutes down by 20 -- they may suck at it, but they still should be able to try.

I'm pointing this to you because you mentioned having some playing time with the game under your belt, so I'm interested to see if you've got a gamer's perspective that makes this element make more sense.

[Desnudo]

How the hell does anyone outside Manchester become a Man Utd fan? Have you sought counseling for this?

The same people who cheer for the NY Yankees and Dallas Cowboys and have never seen New York or Texas.

[Desnudo]

druez-you actually can do the things you mentioned it is just not the way you are used to.

Can you give orders to certain players?
there is an individual training setting doing this will affect what he does in the game

I agree wtih Jon's comment

Can you have a sweeper?
position a defender right in the middle in front of the keeper

Placing a defender right in the middle gives you a five man line, a sweeper hangs behind the line.

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?
Train your play pace/aggression during the week to get them to play that way in the game, also you can set them to defend

I agree wtih Jon's comment

Can you tell them to push the ball down the flanks?
you can move you midefielder wide and move them up if you like

I think he's talking about players making attacking runs during the game, not positional changes which are different.
If you want help just let me know, i would be glad to offer some, i have been playing SAAP for some time and have learned alot about it.

My issues mainly revolve around the GUI. I think it could really use some updating. No right clicking and hard to navigate and return to previous screens. No click filtering on the transfer/out of contract screens. The match screen looks like something from an Atari console. I really like the concept, it just seems like the design really needs an overhaul.

[druez]

druez-you actually can do the things you mentioned it is just not the way you are used to.

Can you give orders to certain players?
there is an individual training setting doing this will affect what he does in the game

I agree wtih Jon's comment

Can you have a sweeper?
position a defender right in the middle in front of the keeper

Placing a defender right in the middle gives you a five man line, a sweeper hangs behind the line.

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?
Train your play pace/aggression during the week to get them to play that way in the game, also you can set them to defend

I agree wtih Jon's comment

Can you tell them to push the ball down the flanks?
you can move you midefielder wide and move them up if you like

I think he's talking about players making attacking runs during the game, not positional changes which are different.
If you want help just let me know, i would be glad to offer some, i have been playing SAAP for some time and have learned alot about it.

My issues mainly revolve around the GUI. I think it could really use some updating. No right clicking and hard to navigate and return to previous screens. No click filtering on the transfer/out of contract screens. The match screen looks like something from an Atari console. I really like the concept, it just seems like the design really needs an overhaul.


Putting a 5 man line back is not the same as adding a sweeper.


Many formations with a sweeper are done like this.


------------x------x

-----x--------x--------x


x-------------------------------x

----------x--------x

--------------x

--------------G


You can't tell them to funel passes through the middle, or to take long shots. With zero play by play how in the world can you tell if your team is being more aggresive if you train them that way this week.

I'm done with this debate, like I said. I love the concept of this game just didn't like the implementation of it.

Jason

[Desnudo]

Putting a 5 man line back is not the same as adding a sweeper.


Many formations with a sweeper are done like this.


------------x------x

-----x--------x--------x


x-------------------------------x

----------x--------x

--------------x

--------------G


You can't tell them to funel passes through the middle, or to take long shots. With zero play by play how in the world can you tell if your team is being more aggresive if you train them that way this week.

I'm done with this debate, like I said. I love the concept of this game just didn't like the implementation of it.

Jason

That's what I was saying about the sweeper. A sweeper isn't a sweeper unless he's playing behind the defensive line. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

[druez]

ahh got ya, I understand.

[Mac Howard]

How the hell does anyone outside Manchester become a Man Utd fan? Have you sought counseling for this?

I was born and bred and spent the first 24 years of my life just 15 miles from Old Trafford and spent four years at Manchester University. But what's it got to do with this debate? :rolleyes:

[Mac Howard]

The crash on your board was regarding two different countries then the one I'm currently playing in. I believe you said it was from guys being developed higher then the game would allow. This is not what I'm experiencing in either case. A crash is a crash MAC.


Please tell me about the tactics in your game.

Can you give orders to certain players?

Can you have a sweeper?

Can you tell your team to tackle hard?

Can you tell them to push the ball down the flanks?



Yes, yes, yes and yes. Your powers of observation are severely limited.

The crash concerning two different countries - in fact two different clubs - was a totally separate item. It occurred in a new release of the game, released only 2 days earlier, and was fixed and a patch uploaded for members to download within 4 hours of it being reported.

The kickoff bug is an obscure bug that has been there for some time and only affected a couple of people out of the thousands who've played the game. You did a Michael Moore by misusing this to argue that my claim, that SaaP was free of the Windows crashes that occur because of conflict between programs, was false. It proved nothing of the sort and is a simple bug that will be fixed as soon as I can reproduce and locate it.

I left a request on the forum that I would appreciate if anyone who has experienced the bug would post details to help me reproduce it. Despite claiming to have experienced the bug I note that you haven't done that which is a pity. That no one else has reported it either confirms what I say about it being very obscure - there is clearly a set of conditions that need to be met to trigger the bug and despite playing the game for many many years (I suspect the bug has been there for that long) I have never experienced it and nor have most others.

[Mac Howard]

Okay, outside looking in here, you've brought me to a question.



That seems rather counter-intuitive to me, here's why:
Practicing a skill/formation/tactic whatever should logically make you better at it. But it doesn't seem to make sense that you have to practice it to make it happen (which is how I read your comment).


You don't {i}have{i{ to practice it (but it helps). There is a control on the match screen to instruct the players to tackle more aggressively. You can instruct the whole team or individual players.

The player placed between the two centre backs will play as a sweeper. The two backs will man-mark the two strikers and the man-in-the-middle sweep up after their mistakes.

[Mac Howard]

druez-you actually can do the things you mentioned it is just not the way you are used to.

No right clicking and hard to navigate and return to previous screens. No click filtering on the transfer/out of contract screens. The match screen looks like something from an Atari console. I really like the concept, it just seems like the design really needs an overhaul.

Your first comment is quite correct and applicable to anyone who has played the traditional game and then comes to SaaP. It is a completely different approach. It is a role playing game not a stats game and the interface simulates interacting with people not manipulating numeric data. That inevitably means that those who've spent years playing the stats game will need to take their time to get used to this new approach. Druez has played the demo for a few days and has yet to understand the new approach.

I'm surprised at you next sentence. There is a single click return button to the core (daily) screen on just about every screen no matter how deep into the menu system you go.

If you wish to filter your transfer players/out of contract players selection then speak to your chief scout. He will ask you for your criteria and then return the players that match it. TThe transfer list/contract list is merely that - a list of all players available likely to be of interest.

The match design is to give the maximum amount of information about the performance of players and teams with the minimum of fuss. It tells you everything you need to know and gives you all the tactical control, including single-click tactics-room-defined formation changes, without ever leaving the match screen. You don't have to lose the match display to look at stats. You don't have to leave it to make tactical changes, substitutions etc. Everything is there on the one screen and you can observe or control all you need to while the match continues to run or, if you like to take your time, you can pause the game and do it all in your own good time.

It's another example of how a customised design based on the needs of the game can be far more effective and efficient than a "Windows" design which has other priorities (ie symbolic data display and conforming to standards). That it is something you might have seen in previous games merely reflects that it is still the best manner of display for the job.

But SaaP is upgraded continuously and match development, the match is now 8 years old, is next behind an updating of the European competitions. Despite being designed in 1996 it already provides information and control at least the equivalent of any game released in and up to 2004. By autumn 2004 it will have a design that will see off other designs for some considerable time to come going off the reactionary comments made by both the CM5 and FM2005 designers towards match developments ;)

What's more, the SaaP Online 12 months of upgrades means that current users will see the benefits of that :)

[druez]

Mac, I'll give you credit you have quite a bit of pasion for your product. Good luck to you.

[Mac Howard]

Mac, I'll give you credit you have quite a bit of pasion for your product. Good luck to you.

22 years at it and still going. I must be getting something right :)

[SlapBone]

I was born and bred and spent the first 24 years of my life just 15 miles from Old Trafford and spent four years at Manchester University. But what's it got to do with this debate? :rolleyes:


Because arguing with a Man Utd. fan is like arguing on the internet :)

[druez]

Because arguing with a Man Utd. fan is like arguing on the internet :)

No kidding, it also makes you ignore obvious faults in your team or game.

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://www.twyst.org/~pumpy/images/castin-sabre.gif