Is It Me?

[Anthony]

ok, you tell me if i'm right or wrong:

our group is starting to transition from young strapping bachelors to married men (starting with me 2 years ago). some of us who aren't married will be engaged guys (or soon to be) joining our "membership". however, there's still the core of the group who are single. we're all in our mid-to-late 20's, prime of our lives, and the single guys are living it up. trips to Vegas once a year, going out drinking several times a week, and about once a week or once every other week many of us will have a video game nite. i take part in the video game nites as much as possible, but obviously as a married guy i can be expected to go out drinking only so much - about more than half than what i used to when i was a bachelor.

so there's the dynamic of our group, one by one we're getting married, and the pool of single guys are dwindling by the year - as is the case with any group of friends.

i've long been one of the more outspoken members of our circle (go figure). i give credit where it's due and i call out guys when i see something wrong (thus, my online "personae" of Hell Atlantic is not much different than my actual self). Recently yet another one of us got married (11/04). This guy has cheated on his then g/f for years, even while he was engaged. obviously he's of a weaker will and moral fortitude than many. now, let me tell you about this single friend of mine. he's got the good job, starting taking care of his appearance, adopted a "skirt chaser" personality in recent years. nutshell: he's a normal unattached american male in his 20's. it's safe to assume that as a bachelor legally he's permitted to do things a married man can't. no shocking news here.

so here's my gripe:

our hard core bachelor just invited us to go to Vegas with some of his female friends. he also invited that newlywed friend of mine in the email. now, knowing the kind of guy the newlywed is - do you really think it's proper to invite him to the City of Sin? i've never been there, mind you, but i'm no spring chicken, i know what the deal is w/ Vegas (even though the place has moved to be more family-oriented than ever). this is akin to inviting a recovering alcoholic to a bar. why place that tempation and stress on a guy? i was like "what exactly is a married guy gonna do in Vegas with a bunch of single guys?". the hard core bachelor friend of mine isn't really a guy's guy - he's not into sports whatsoever and i've called him out for not being able to do male-bonding activities (spare me the corny joke posts dealing with 'male-bonding activities' please). he doesn't gamble. just goes to clubs and drinks and tries to pick up girls. i know i wouldn't want to be in that environment and my friends have now learned better than to invite me to Vegas outings. so i just commented on perhaps inviting a newly married guy with a bad track record of fidelity is the best option.

or am i just overreacting and is it all just totally cool to be a bachelor and try to get your married friends to do things that involve single girls.

[Fritz]

ok, you tell me if i'm right or wrong:

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

[Anthony]

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

ok, so you are gay? question answered.

[rkmsuf]

Well I'm sure your friend would feel bad if he wasn't even invited.

It's up to the married dude to set his own boundaries. That's not your job.

[Fritz]

ok, so you are gay? question answered.

no, just waiting for your $10,000 check before I let you blow me.

[Crapshoot]

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

Gold.

[Klinglerware]

Vegas is for everyone, even the kiddies! (Or that's what their marketing people were tellling me in the mid 90s.)

[rkmsuf]

So basically it is you.

[cuervo72]

I think your friend is just taunting you! Are you going to take that from him?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I tend to agree with rkmsuf on this I think.

I'm not seeing any reason not to invite the newlywed guy along for the trip, other than the fact that he's married. I'd probably have been offended/hurt/pissed if my crowd omitted me from something solely for that reason.

Now, that said -- I think the guy prolly needs his head examined if he actually goes on the trip (unless he's really got his act together with regard to his wedding vows), but that's a call he deserves a chance to make for himself. If he _doesn't_ deserve that chance, well, I'm not sure exactly why you'd be inviting him in the first place, because that seems pretty close to designating him an asshole.

[Anthony]

Well I'm sure your friend would feel bad if he wasn't even invited.

It's up to the married dude to set his own boundaries. That's not your job.


so let's say if you were a recovering drug addict who had a history of relaspes you would want to be invited to a party where there was gonna be drugs?

i'm trying to see if i'm being the nag, or if i'm doing the right thing by trying to be a positive influence on my friends and let them see that things have to change somewhat because the single guys can't pretend some of us have wives. there should be ways for everyone to hang out and it not have to include me or any married guy sitting on the sidelines with drinks in hand watching the bachelors hook up.

[Anthony]

let's steer this discussion back on topic. the topic isn't "is Vegas kid friendly".

edit: time/post bug. should be after Jon's post.

[JonInMiddleGA]

(Or that's what their marketing people were tellling me in the mid 90s.)

{shrug} My kid, soon to turn 7, ranks Vegas second only to Orlando, FL as his favorite place on earth, after just a single trip there.

I wouldn't want to try to entertain a young child there for a solid week, but there's more than enough things to make a very full & fun day (and night) for kids for at least 3 days, especially if you've got some sort of event filling up most of the nighttime hours.

[rkmsuf]

so let's say if you were a recovering drug addict who had a history of relaspes you would want to be invited to a party where there was gonna be drugs?

i'm trying to see if i'm being the nag, or if i'm doing the right thing by trying to be a positive influence on my friends and let them see that things have to change somewhat because the single guys can't pretend some of us have wives. there should be ways for everyone to hang out and it not have to include me or any married guy sitting on the sidelines with drinks in hand watching the bachelors hook up.

I think you are overstating your influence.

People make choices. You can't be the world's babysitter.

Now if you want to make a case you should pull your friend aside prior to the trip and talk about this subject I'd be all for it. Otherwise I'd treat him with the same respect as any other friend and not "censor" or "protect" him. That ain't doing anyone any favors.

Everyone has married and single friends in this world. You would like to thing the married folk got married for a reason but if they didn't good luck helping them all find their way in the world.

[Klinglerware]

Didn't mean to steer the thread in that direction--my comment really just meant "if Vegas is good enough for a kid, it's good enough for your married friend"...

[Anthony]

I tend to agree with rkmsuf on this I think.

I'm not seeing any reason not to invite the newlywed guy along for the trip, other than the fact that he's married. I'd probably have been offended/hurt/pissed if my crowd omitted me from something solely for that reason.

Now, that said -- I think the guy prolly needs his head examined if he actually goes on the trip (unless he's really got his act together with regard to his wedding vows), but that's a call he deserves a chance to make for himself. If he _doesn't_ deserve that chance, well, I'm not sure exactly why you'd be inviting him in the first place, because that seems pretty close to designating him an asshole.

ahhhhh...that's the thing man. highly unlikely he's got his act together. we're talking about someone who took out "marriage insurance" at his reception hall. the insurance was that he'd get his money back if there was a chance the wedding never happened.

my question is not so much "what can a married guy do in Vegas" - it's more "why should our single friends invite a marreid guy with a shady history when it comes to being faithful to Vegas just so he can be tempted and watch all the single guys have their "fun"?

keep in mind - i'm the party animal of the group. and i'm the last guy who wants to admit the party is over. but times, they do change and you have to acknowledge that.

[Tigercat]

You either don't support the newlywed guy's choices or you don't worry about him, its a simple as that. If you choose not to support him as someone who is getting married(along with other faithful married guys in your group and such) you confront him along with not putting him in positions to further damage his marrage. But if you are inclined to stay out of his buisness, stay out of his buisness when it comes to your friend gatherings too. Let him run his own life. But you can't let a friend hurt his marrage at one point and then decide that just because hes doing it in close proximity to you that thats bad.

[Anthony]

I think you are overstating your influence.

People make choices. You can't be the world's babysitter.

Now if you want to make a case you should pull your friend aside prior to the trip and talk about this subject I'd be all for it. Otherwise I'd treat him with the same respect as any other friend and not "censor" or "protect" him. That ain't doing anyone any favors.

Everyone has married and single friends in this world. You would like to thing the married folk got married for a reason but if they didn't good luck helping them all find their way in the world.


point noted. very good post.

[SunDancer]

{shrug} My kid, soon to turn 7, ranks Vegas second only to Orlando, FL as his favorite place on earth, after just a single trip there.

I wouldn't want to try to entertain a young child there for a solid week, but there's more than enough things to make a very full & fun day (and night) for kids for at least 3 days, especially if you've got some sort of event filling up most of the nighttime hours.

Interesting. Isn't Vegas starting to move back towards an "Adults-Only" trend right now?

Anyways,
I think that hes in control in himself. Dont you have single women everywhere? Vegas may have a rep, but don't think the the women in your place are less "flirty".

[Anthony]

Didn't mean to steer the thread in that direction--my comment really just meant "if Vegas is good enough for a kid, it's good enough for your married friend"...

no prob. once i've came to my conclusion then free discussion can commence.

[SunDancer]

HA,
Where exactly will you go in Vegas? Stay on the Strip?

[Anthony]

You either don't support the newlywed guy's choices or you don't worry about him, its a simple as that. If you choose not to support him as someone who is getting married(along with other faithful married guys in your group and such) you confront him along with not putting him in positions to further damage his marrage. But if you are inclined to stay out of his buisness, stay out of his buisness when it comes to your friend gatherings too. Let him run his own life. But you can't let a friend hurt his marrage at one point and then decide that just because hes doing it in close proximity to you that thats bad.


well, i wouldn't have him as a friend if i didn't worry about him. and i don't want to make this just about my newlywed friend with prior "commitment issues". i'm talking in general. do you or do you not agree that single guys should try to not necessarily turn into family guys themselves, but keep in mind that our activities just can't possibly involve going out to clubs to try to pick up girls?

i'm not trying to impose my morals on any of my friends, but i just think it's bad form to essentially say "nevermind your marriage, hang out with us and watch us pick up girls". i had another thread a few days ago where i said "i still got it" cuz some girl approached me and i had to turn her away. i loved the attention and by golly it was a shame to turn down effortless vag (effortless vag is vag that just falls in your lap without you even trying). i've cut down on my hanging out at bars solely to prevent putting myself in those situations. not that i'd break down and cheat, mind you, but you still don't want to play with fire just because you don't intend to get burnt.

i told my friends i don't mind at all going to bars to hang with the guys and drink beer and watch sports. those are activities where the single guys aren't in "hunt-mode" and we can just be ourselves. it's when they want to get all dolled up and go to dance clubs that i've quickly pulled out of doing.

[JHandley]

HA, I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a noble intention. However, back to your analogy of inviting a drug addict to a drug filled party, it's been my experience if the person wants to do drugs, no amount of trying to steer them clear will help. It is up to that person to make a personal decision to clean up their life. Intervention only helps in making the person see what damage they are doing to their life and to the people they love. It's still their choice to take action.

I've also always held the belief that cheating has really very little to do with having sex. Much like rape has very little to do with sex. I've found that people cheat for one of two reasons. Either they want to see if they can get away with it, or they want to be caught. Obviously, I don't know anything about your friend and his new bride, but as a general rule, I find it very hard to believe he's cheating because he can't get any at home. It's more likely that he either likes the adventure of "getting away with it" or that he is unhappy being married and is hoping to get caught, thus ending the relationship.

Either way, it's his choice to accept the invitation. You said that your friends have learned not to invite you on their escapades. They learned this because you told them you didn't want to go, so inviting you was a waste of time. This guy hasn't made that clear.

Edit: I just want it noted that I got interupted during this post, so that's why it looks like I'm just repeating what everyone else said ;)

[Anthony]

HA,
Where exactly will you go in Vegas? Stay on the Strip?

i'm not going bro. i've never been there. i used to tell my friends that i'd like to go to Vegas first with my wife and then i'd go with them once the wife is out of the way. but now i'm wondering out loud exactly what the hell i'd do down there that i wouldn't do here in good ole NYC.

becuase neither my wife or i has been to Vegas before we want to go together first. i've travelled a lot when i was younger and she didn't go anywhere so there arent many places she'd like to go that i haven't been to. in the interest of having a place we'd both get to experience together for the first time i've long refrained on going to Vegas. but, like i said the more i think about it the more i see i just wouldn't have as good a time as a bachelor. i'm not a gambler (i only do Roulette and some black jack) and i'm certainly not into those gay shows, so that really leaves a lot of options out when trying to have things to do that doesn't involve Vegas clubs.

from what i'm reading i'm getting the feeling that indeed i may be overreacting and shouldn't try to get in anyone's way. i wasn't trying to be anyone's mother, just trying to do what i thought i good friend would do and steer my friends into doing things that both single and married guys could do together.

[AnalBumCover]

Geez, there's more to Vegas than just gambling, alcohol, and sex.....



[cue crickets]

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

I tend to agree with JIMGA and rkmsuf. I only have one question - can I send Arlie with you guys? I really need a weekend to myself. :D

[cartman]

I can't believe it hasn't been pointed out yet, but...

what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

[Anthony]

HA, I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a noble intention. However, back to your analogy of inviting a drug addict to a drug filled party, it's been my experience if the person wants to do drugs, no amount of trying to steer them clear will help. It is up to that person to make a personal decision to clean up their life. Intervention only helps in making the person see what damage they are doing to their life and to the people they love. It's still their choice to take action.

I've also always held the belief that cheating has really very little to do with having sex. Much like rape has very little to do with sex. I've found that people cheat for one of two reasons. Either they want to see if they can get away with it, or they want to be caught. Obviously, I don't know anything about your friend and his new bride, but as a general rule, I find it very hard to believe he's cheating because he can't get any at home. It's more likely that he either likes the adventure of "getting away with it" or that he is unhappy being married and is hoping to get caught, thus ending the relationship.

Either way, it's his choice to accept the invitation. You said that your friends have learned not to invite you on their escapades. They learned this because you told them you didn't want to go, so inviting you was a waste of time. This guy hasn't made that clear.

Edit: I just want it noted that I got interupted during this post, so that's why it looks like I'm just repeating what everyone else said ;)

thank you JH. i mostly agree with your point. i consider myself a guy's guy, so i wanted to make sure my intentions were looking like that of a concerned friend and not a nagging whiner. judging by what looks to be the previlaing sentiment here i think it's be i refrain from voicing my displeasure to my friends over their choice of activities and who they invite to partake in those activities.

[Anthony]

I can't believe it hasn't been pointed out yet, but...

what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

i think it'd be bad form for a married guy in our group to cheat in front of any of us. i can keep a secret with the best of them, but i wouldn't want to carry that burden. if i ever was the type to cheat on my wife i'd do it in private, so that only i would carry that guilt on my conscience. i would really hate to witness infidelity among my friends and have to essentially look their wives in the eyes and lie to her.

[Fritz]

you could look her in the eye and tell her, then give her the big HAbone.

[rkmsuf]

You can't go wrong using this board as your compass.

Makes life like shooting fish in a barrel.

[SunDancer]

I tend to agree with JIMGA and rkmsuf. I only have one question - can I send Arlie with you guys? I really need a weekend to myself. :D


I'll come down and keep you company. :D

[gottimd]

[cue crickets]

http://www.nottinghamrecordfair.co.uk/images/LPs/New1-1-04/THE%20CRICKETS.jpg

[cartman]

of all people HA you should realize this:

When faced with a dilemma, all you have to do is ask yourself "What would Dean Houston do?". Once you figure this out, all you need at that point is the number of a bail bondsman and an attorney,

[DanGarion]

i think it'd be bad form for a married guy in our group to cheat in front of any of us. i can keep a secret with the best of them, but i wouldn't want to carry that burden. if i ever was the type to cheat on my wife i'd do it in private, so that only i would carry that guilt on my conscience. i would really hate to witness infidelity among my friends and have to essentially look their wives in the eyes and lie to her.
If a married friend cheated on his wife in front of me I would have to question his friendship by placing that type of burden on me.

[Anthony]

If a married friend cheated on his wife in front of me I would have to question his friendship by placing that type of burden on me.


it's only a matter of time with the "newlywed". it was a complete shock when he told us he was engaged.

he told us he was engaged right after he got off the phone with some girl he met when we went up to Boston for a weekend during a Yankees/Red Sox ALCS game (the one where Pedro threw Don Zimmer).

edit: but here's the thing, dan, with my group of friends it's like funny he's not the most faithful guy. everyone cracks jokes about him being that way (he hasn't cheated yet as a married man), like it's something cool. so they're creating this environment where it's not shameful to cheat on one's wife.

[DanGarion]

it's only a matter of time with the "newlywed". it was a complete shock when he told us he was engaged.

he told us he was engaged right after he got off the phone with some girl he met when we went up to Boston for a weekend during a Yankees/Red Sox ALCS game (the one where Pedro threw Don Zimmer).

edit: but here's the thing, dan, with my group of friends it's like funny he's not the most faithful guy. everyone cracks jokes about him being that way (he hasn't cheated yet as a married man), like it's something cool. so they're creating this environment where it's not shameful to cheat on one's wife.
I'd probably have a tough time with any of my friends that acted that way. It's one thing to act like a guy and "talk the talk" but it's another thing to really egg another friend to do it, and by the way you are explaining they have no respect for him or his marriage (I'm assuming because of his former unfaithfulness in dating relationships).

[cthomer5000]

what will he do in Vegas? be entertained by you, the life of the party.

[Anthony]

I'd probably have a tough time with any of my friends that acted that way. It's one thing to act like a guy and "talk the talk" but it's another thing to really egg another friend to do it, and by the way you are explaining they have no respect for him or his marriage (I'm assuming because of his former unfaithfulness in dating relationships).

you assume correctly.

put it this way. his last name is Vos. his nickname after he got married was D-Vos. (get it?...har dee har har).

they don't egg him on in terms of encouraging him, more like it's just accepted it's a matter of time, not if. which is why i'm saying i didn't think it's right for single guys to include him in in Vegas trips - who would want to be responsible for ruining a marriage? granted based on prior history it looks like he'll do it with or without the help of his friends, i just i know i wouldn't want to be known as the catalyst. if i was single and organizing the trip i could see myself telling him to maybe sit this one out.

but i'm taking the advice of the clear majority of this thread and will keep my sentiments to myself going forward.

[Anthony]

what will he do in Vegas? be entertained by you, the life of the party.

i'm not going unfortunately. an underlying theme of this thread was that i didn't think Vegas is worth it for a married guy surrounded by his bachelor friends.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

i'm not going unfortunately. an underlying theme of this thread was that i didn't think Vegas is worth it for a married guy surrounded by his bachelor friends.Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Just because there's a ring on your finger doesn't mean you can't go out with the guys, get stupid drunk, and hang out with other girls.

Of course I fully expect the same freedom. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

HA - I've probably just gotten lost along the way somewhere but ...

You're married (or attached or "not prowling" or whatever) and you're not going.
But were you invited?
And were any of the other married guys invited? (whether they're going or not)

That's the part I'm kinda honed in on here -- it isn't whether the guy decides to go
(I probably wouldn't, you wouldn't, etc.) that I'm seeing at question, but whether he should be invited.

Among any group of friends that I've been a part of, the invitation would be the critical thing to avoid any problems -- either all the married guys of equal standing in the group get invited OR none of the married guys get invited. Anything else courts some hard feelings IMO, maybe substantial hard feelings.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking.

FWIW, I don't think you're being all that unusually permissive, or at least not uniquely so.

I've been to Vegas alone several times since getting married. My wife has a very BTDT thing about the town, whereas I consider it pretty much paradise.
As long as my going doesn't entail her being forced to go, I can take off as I see fit.

By the same token, she takes off when possible for things she truly loves, such as an antique auction tonight down in Alabama. She's gone alone at times, she's gone with friends (like this weekend). I'm equally content to let her go do things she loves as long as they don't require me to do something that I'd enjoy about as much as a root canal.

I won't claim this is the majority of marriages, but I believe it's more common that a lot of people might suspect (I know several other couples who operate on the same basic premise).

[SunDancer]

FWIW, I don't think you're being all that unusually permissive, or at least not uniquely so.

I've been to Vegas alone several times since getting married. My wife has a very BTDT thing about the town, whereas I consider it pretty much paradise.
As long as my going doesn't entail her being forced to go, I can take off as I see fit.

By the same token, she takes off when possible for things she truly loves, such as an antique auction tonight down in Alabama. She's gone alone at times, she's gone with friends (like this weekend). I'm equally content to let her go do things she loves as long as they don't require me to do something that I'd enjoy about as much as a root canal.

I won't claim this is the majority of marriages, but I believe it's more common that a lot of people might suspect (I know several other couples who operate on the same basic premise).

That sounds like a good solution.

I am guessing that as long as you know your boundaries and are going just to have a good time with your friends (and not other people of the opposite sex that you might come across), it sounds like its all fair.

Though, I must prefer a weekend in Vegas then an antique show. :)

[Franklinnoble]

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Just because there's a ring on your finger doesn't mean you can't go out with the guys, get stupid drunk, and hang out with other girls.

Of course I fully expect the same freedom. :D

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.
Are you sassing me? :p You knew what I meant.

[SunDancer]

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.

Only if the other girls are hot though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Only if the other girls are hot though.

Or at least photogenic.

[DanGarion]

Or at least photogenic.
pix pls! kthx!

[korme]

Vegas, baby, Vegas!


I think you are being a very good friend for your concern, HA.

[Anthony]

HA - I've probably just gotten lost along the way somewhere but ...

You're married (or attached or "not prowling" or whatever) and you're not going.
But were you invited?
And were any of the other married guys invited? (whether they're going or not)

That's the part I'm kinda honed in on here -- it isn't whether the guy decides to go
(I probably wouldn't, you wouldn't, etc.) that I'm seeing at question, but whether he should be invited.

Among any group of friends that I've been a part of, the invitation would be the critical thing to avoid any problems -- either all the married guys of equal standing in the group get invited OR none of the married guys get invited. Anything else courts some hard feelings IMO, maybe substantial hard feelings.

well, the only other married guy is in Boston with a wife who's expecting, i think for all intents and purposes he's out of the question. i was not asked because they know where i stand on this issue after making myself perfectly clear.

so, to answer your question, yes, our newlywed friend with the bad habit of fidelity (although technically he wasn't married to his wife when he hooked up with other girls) was the only married guy in the group asked to go. and yes, i agree with you - that might be the gist of my disappointment - exactly why is he, of all people, being asked to go. we know his bad habits aren't good for a marriage.

for the record i have no hard feelings about not going. i could go (i'd get some flack from the wife)...i just don't want to - i don't know what i could do in Vegas while my friends went on the prowl. doesn't sound like something i'd want to pay all that money for. no hard feelings with that on my part.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Yeah, but I think Arlie would prefer it the way I meant it...
Now that I'll agree with. ;) He has been checking out the digital camera thread.

[Franklinnoble]

Are you sassing me? :p You knew what I meant.

Yeah, but I think Arlie would prefer it the way I meant it...

[JonInMiddleGA]

i agree with you - that might be the gist of my disappointment - exactly why is he, of all people, being asked to go. we know his bad habits aren't good for a marriage.

Dude, whether you've got any hard feelings about it or not, this sounds like some fucked up thought processes or something on the part of some people who still have some growing up to do. It really does read something like "let's do some guy stuff with our friends ... but only if it involves chasing women."

Damn, I really don't have a problem with single guys chasing tail, but I'd be hard pressed to remain friends if they only wanted to include me IF I was chasing too.

Well, at least I figure the joke is ultimately on them. If women are their primary/sole focus for this adventure, they're likely to waste a lot of money on a trip to Vegas to do it. The women there are the same as the ones everywhere else, their success or failure rate isn't going to be much different than it would be anywhere else AFAIK. Looks like somebody has been hooked by a good advertising campaign (not that there's anything wrong with that :D)

[Anthony]

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Just because there's a ring on your finger doesn't mean you can't go out with the guys, get stupid drunk, and hang out with other girls.

Of course I fully expect the same freedom. :D

i understand, but the arguement isn't permission. i can do most anything i want, i have the kind of marriage as well. i stay home a lot - so when i go out all bets are off and i make up for lost time.

the arguement is "what kind of fun can a married man have being surrounded with his single friends who have only one thing on their mind"? we go to sports bars and Hooters and do the guy thing (beer, wings, check out girls, watch sports,etc.). i like that kind of fun. it's when things get taken to the next level - going to a club, getting drunk and having friends pick up girls or dancing with girls while you have to keep your hands in your pocket - that's what i'm talking about.

i dance with other girls when i got drunk - like i said i'm the life of the party and i try to get some of my more shy friends involved with the various pockets of girls. i'm somewhat of an icebreaker and a decent wing-man. so yeah, i'm not a saint. but then there's the point of "why am i dancing with this girl or talking to her - this is eventually going to lead nowhere...i'm married."

[Subby]

I can't explain the tingle I get down my spine when I visit FOFC for the first time all day and see a two-page thread started by HA.

The anticipation of what is in the thread is usually even better than the thread itself.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

i understand, but the arguement isn't permission. i can do most anything i want, i have the kind of marriage as well. i stay home a lot - so when i go out all bets are off and i make up for lost time.

the arguement is "what kind of fun can a married man have being surrounded with his single friends who have only one thing on their mind"? we go to sports bars and Hooters and do the guy thing (beer, wings, check out girls, watch sports,etc.). i like that kind of fun. it's when things get taken to the next level - going to a club, getting drunk and having friends pick up girls or dancing with girls while you have to keep your hands in your pocket - that's what i'm talking about.

i dance with other girls when i got drunk - like i said i'm the life of the party and i try to get some of my more shy friends involved with the various pockets of girls. i'm somewhat of an icebreaker and a decent wing-man. so yeah, i'm not a saint. but then there's the point of "why am i dancing with this girl or talking to her - this is eventually going to lead nowhere...i'm married."
I can understand that. I guess what I can't relate to is the "why am i dancing with this girl or talking to her - this is eventually going to lead nowhere...i'm married." mindset.

Does everything with your buddies have to involve the end goal of ending up in bed with a girl? (Ok I know it's Vegas, but hear me out) What about meeting other people for the simple fun of meeting other people?

[korme]

Vegas, baby, Vegas!


I think you are being a very good friend for your concern, HA.
Baby, we're going to be up five hundy by midnight!

[Anthony]

Dude, whether you've got any hard feelings about it or not, this sounds like some fucked up thought processes or something on the part of some people who still have some growing up to do. It really does read something like "let's do some guy stuff with our friends ... but only if it involves chasing women."

Damn, I really don't have a problem with single guys chasing tail, but I'd be hard pressed to remain friends if they only wanted to include me IF I was chasing too.


exactly. you get it.

i must say it's only the person i described as the "hard core bachelor" who continually fails to respect the sanctity of one's marriage. he is the one who i mentioned not being a "guy's guy" and not being able to know how to bond with other males in ways that don't involve picking up girls. all other single guys are able to do some non-skirt chasing action, although i should add that's mostly for during the week. weekends are Groundhog Day basically. "which bar we going to this week?". "what club we going to tonite?". lather, rinse, repeat.

[Anthony]

I can't explain the tingle I get down my spine when I visit FOFC for the first time all day and see a two-page thread started by HA.




i get a tingle, too, when i see you've posted something.

although it's not in my spine where i feel it, cowboy. :cool:

[lynchjm24]

This is quite possibly the lamest thread in the history of this board.

Who gives a shit if he goes to Vegas. If he is going to cheat on his wife, he's going to cheat on her, it doesn't matter if he's in Nevada or wherever it is he lives.

I've been to Vegas on four separate occasions. It's not like you get there and girls jump into bed with you. It's not really any different then going to any bar in America, as far as I can tell. Sometimes you score, sometimes you don't. If there is any advantage, you might stumble upon a girl just looking to hook up because of the whole Vegas mystique.

Now that I think about it, you can pick up a cheapie: the last time I was there the girls that me and my friend brought home were easy because they needed a room to stay in because they wanted to stay a night longer then they planned.

Anyway, if this guy is your friend then stop judging him. If he isn't a good enough friend that you trust him to do whatever he wants with his life then stop worrying about him anyway.

For a man's man, this is pretty gay.

[lynchjm24]

Does everything with your buddies have to involve the end goal of ending up in bed with a girl?

About 15 years ago this sounded like this:

'Can't you kids have fun without drinking'.

The answer of course was no.

[korme]

lynchjm is a funny dude.

[Anthony]

I can understand that. I guess what I can't relate to is the "why am i dancing with this girl or talking to her - this is eventually going to lead nowhere...i'm married." mindset.

Does everything with your buddies have to involve the end goal of ending up in bed with a girl? (Ok I know it's Vegas, but hear me out) What about meeting other people for the simple fun of meeting other people?

no. they're single. they want their women (albeit at a horribly bad success rate). you're a woman, you enjoy conversation for conversation's sake. it's in your DNA. my friends and i aren't the type to waltz into a bar and see someone and say "hey, you look like you have something interesting to talk about".

hey, i'm married, i made my bed (and happy to be in it, don't get me wrong), i'm not trying to impose my morals on anyone or rain on anyone's parade because i have a wife. it's just you want evolution eventually. the dynamic of your friendship with others has to evolve. it can't be "well, i'm single, so stay home if you don't want to go out to the bar tonite" forever. as the number of us who are married starts to increase we eventually are gonna have to do activities that are appropriate for everyone and not just the bachelors. this can be very frustrating as i'm sure you've come to understand my situation.

[Anthony]

This is quite possibly the lamest thread in the history of this board.

Who gives a shit if he goes to Vegas. If he is going to cheat on his wife, he's going to cheat on her, it doesn't matter if he's in Nevada or wherever it is he lives.

I've been to Vegas on four separate occasions. It's not like you get there and girls jump into bed with you. It's not really any different then going to any bar in America, as far as I can tell. Sometimes you score, sometimes you don't. If there is any advantage, you might stumble upon a girl just looking to hook up because of the whole Vegas mystique.

Now that I think about it, you can pick up a cheapie: the last time I was there the girls that me and my friend brought home were easy because they needed a room to stay in because they wanted to stay a night longer then they planned.

Anyway, if this guy is your friend then stop judging him. If he isn't a good enough friend that you trust him to do whatever he wants with his life then stop worrying about him anyway.

For a man's man, this is pretty gay.

point taken. like i said before he (and, by extension, his wife) wouldn't be my friend if i didn't care.

but a good sheppard doesn't lead his sheep to the wolve's den, even if the sheep will wonder there on its own. maybe what i'm saying is should bachelor friends encourage their married friends to go to clubs (the only point to going to club's is to pick up people, you certainly don't go there for the love of the dance or the overpriced drinks) or should they make concessions that times are a changing and new activities should be incorporated. that is all i ask. i think from this thread i got my answer. leave people to do their own thing, even if you have good intentions.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Well since you're not going, I guess you won't be taking Arlie. I guess I need to find a different way to get a weekend to myself. :D

[Dutch]

I guess the guy is addicted to chicks (or his ego), either way, it's up to him. Your job is to make sure he understands that it might not be a good idea. And if you and not afraid to be critical. You may just want to mention your side to him.

In the end, like you said, it's up to him to make the decision on what he does.

[lynchjm24]

or should they make concessions that times are a changing and new activities should be incorporated. that is all i ask.

It happens naturally. You've got the single people, the married people and the married with kids types. Of course they gravitate towards the similar ones. My 'friends' get together exactly 2 times a year: fantasy baseball draft, fantasy football draft. Trying to get any kind of consensus for anything is impossible between kids, work, sports leagues, wives & girlfriends.

At some point everyone pretty much stops hanging out in bars, because you get to an age where you have no shot with the younger girls there, and it's damn near pointless to go out.

I've got 6 UConn football tickets, sometimes we are scrambling for 6 extras, sometimes I'm giving away 4 of them at work - it's the nature of growing up.

[Solecismic]

No good can come of worrying about someone else's marriage. Each married person must decide for him- or herself about appropriate behavior. I don't care how close you are to your friend, you shouldn't even interject your opinion unless asked.

There's no concrete answer to your question. Either he's in a relationship where he feels he can go, or he isn't. That determination is made by factors that have nothing to do with anyone but him and his wife.

Why is anyone under the age of 65 even thinking about going to Vegas? That's what I can't understand. Especially when you live just a stone's throw from Armpit City.

(note to those who might live there, please excuse the fact that I'm insulting your respective cities - it is with the deepest of respect for you as individuals that I slam your very existence).

[Ben E Lou]

it is with the deepest of respect for you as individuals that I slam your very existence:D

[Dutch]

Damn! :)

[jamesUMD]

i'm the party animal of the group. and i'm the last guy who wants to admit the party is over. but times, they do change and you have to acknowledge that.
So times have changed because you decided it was time? Seems a little unfair to me that you would make that decision for all of your friends. Some of my friends have goten married because they are afraid to be the last bachelor standing. Others have gotten married and live vicareously through our single friends. Everyone enters different chapters of their life at different moments and they make that decision on their own. I just got married at a time when alot of my friends are having kids. I will have kids when I feel the time is right, not when my friends tell me.

Not that it's an answer, but don't you think that some of your friends could constantly be chasing girls in front of you to address their own insecurities. They see their friends meeting that special someone and disappearing from their normal cycle of life.
You have your wife but what does your single friend have? He's still single and now he has one less buddy to hang out with. I just think that it's presumtuous to assume that I would know what's best for my friends.

I will be there when my friend's want to bounce ideas off of me, and I will be there when they stumble after making their own mistakes, but I will not be the one shouting down from the mountain top as though "I am the wise and they are the needy"

[cuervo72]

Why is anyone under the age of 65 even thinking about going to Vegas? That's what I can't understand. Especially when you live just a stone's throw from Armpit City.

Paging Mr. QuikSand...Mr. QuikSand, please pick up the white courtesey phone.

[Arles]

Yeah, but I think Arlie would prefer it the way I meant it...
Only if I was invited :cool:

[Julio Riddols]

I only have one rule.. If my friend wants to screw himself, I don't cock block. If my friend wants advice, I give it freely and honestly.

[Dutch]

I only have one rule.. If my friend wants to screw himself, I don't cock block. If my friend wants advice, I give it freely and honestly.
If you ever find yourself in a position where you do not respect your wife or are bored and are hunting for action, be a fucking man and get a divorce. Why sneak back into the house and be forced to lie to some girl you don't even love?

But if you have kids...well, party's over, be a man.

Also...

How would you like it if you found out that your wife was screwing guys on the other side of town and all her friends knew about it?

People should always be able to give advice and opinion to their friends. Not just when it's asked for. If your friend has a problem and refuses to recognize it, but you do? Well....you gotta help him/her.

[Airhog]

I think you should do him in the butt...

[Tekneek]

Maybe I am just an asshole, but I would never tolerate someone running around on their wife (or husband). If I know about it, somebody's ass is going to end up in a grinder over it. I might remind them once about their obligations and that, until they are divorced, they are off of that playing field. If they are insistent on fucking up their life, I have little tolerance for that type of nonsense. I would not want those secrets kept from me, so why would I keep them from other people? Treat people the way you want to be treated. A simple rule in life that should keep you on a straight and ethical path.

[Anthony]

see, i side with what Tekneek is saying. but now i do think based on the advice given in this thread the best option is to let everyone live their lives as they see fit. this goes against my very being, my philosophy on interacting with people is this: i have a circle - everyone inside the circle (friends, family and my wife) are the only people in this world i care about. everyone else outside the circle...they can get hit by a car and i wouldn't bat an eyelash. so we're talking about someone inside my circle now, i naturally want to help him stay on the straight and narrow and care for his well-being and that of his wife. i can't just not care about the mistakes someone inside my circle makes, as i've said many times if i didn't care for that person i wouldn't have them as a friend.

but the prevailing majority of the advice given in this thread says to lay off, so i'll concede that i should. and i will.

i was just stating for the record my natural inclination would be to act similar to what Tekneek just described.

[lynchjm24]

i can't just not care about the mistakes someone inside my circle makes, as i've said many times if i didn't care for that person i wouldn't have them as a friend.




You are projecting your opinion that it's a mistake (or in Tekneek's opinion that they are 'fucking up their lives'). If you wanted to have a chat with the guy and tell him why you don't think he should cheat on his wife that is one thing - to tell his wife that he cheated (if he were to cheat), is a big difference.

The first time someone like Tekneek told someone's wife or girlfriend in my group of friends that they cheated he'd be looking for a new group of friends. This of course would be after he finished the dental work that would be needed after the beating he'd receive.

[Anthony]

totally, telling the significant other is forbidden as per Section 2, Paragraph 8 of the "Guy Handbook".

i was talking about chatting with the guy himself. my best friend got black listed because he told a girlfirend of one of my friends that she was being cheated on (he was trying to cozy up to her and possibly bang her is the prevailing theory).

[Tekneek]

The first time someone like Tekneek told someone's wife or girlfriend in my group of friends that they cheated he'd be looking for a new group of friends. This of course would be after he finished the dental work that would be needed after the beating he'd receive.

If I told their wife, they would know I was going to do it. It wouldn't be a surprise to them. I've not had to tell anyone that kind of news, because luckily I just haven't associated with scumbags like that. If I were in your group of friends, and they didn't like having their nefarious activities spoken of...they had better hope they kill me rather than just cause some dental work, because that certainly would not be the end of it.

EDIT: I know I gave the impression I would tell them right from the start, but the reality would likely be far from that. However, any person with any ethics would not let someone run around on their wife and pretend it is alright (IMHO), especially so if they have kids. If you want to be a single guy, then do the responsible thing and get a divorce first. I suppose, though, that people with strong personal ethics would not associate with someone who would do that anyway...

[JonInMiddleGA]

This of course would be after he finished the dental work that would be needed after the beating he'd receive.

Which reminds me of what must be the other end of the spectrum ... a couple of cases I can recall where the dental work was needed to repair the damage done to the cheater by his friends, who tired of watching him be a fuckup.

[lynchjm24]

Which reminds me of what must be the other end of the spectrum ... a couple of cases I can recall where the dental work was needed to repair the damage done to the cheater by his friends, who tired of watching him be a fuckup.


Maybe it's a regional deal. I believe that Tekneek is from your area as well.

To me it's a situation where you should mind your own damn business. That was the one thing I hated most about living in the south was the way that many people tried to project their 'morals' into everyone else's situation. Many of them were the most hypocritical bastards I've ever met in my life, they loved their bible but they weren't into the whole let he who without sin aspects.

[Tekneek]

To me it's a situation where you should mind your own damn business.

That's fine. If they are keeping it a private matter and nobody ever finds out about it, why would I care about something I am not aware of? If they weren't trying to deceive a wife and/or children, for whatever reason, it wouldn't be a big deal at all. Adultery has victims. At the very least, I would cease all contact with someone who cared so little about their family. I wouldn't trust them with anything if they were going to show that level of disrespect.

That was the one thing I hated most about living in the south was the way that many people tried to project their 'morals' into everyone else's situation.

This happens everywhere. Perhaps it is just a different set of 'morals' that are being used?

Many of them were the most hypocritical bastards I've ever met in my life, they loved their bible but they weren't into the whole let he who without sin aspects.

Hypocritical? I work hard at making sure my views are consistent and void of any double standards. Certainly let me know if you ever become aware of any. As far as bibles go, you won't find me toting one anywhere. Religious causes are issues for someone else. If I was running around on my wife, I would expect that my friends would not sit idly by or cheer me on.

[oliegirl]

It sounds like you have really good intentions, and I am sure the guy's wife would appreciate what you are trying to do...but I do think you need to let the guy make his own decisions. Maybe pull him aside and talk to him one on one, as someone who has been married longer maybe he would listen to you. And if not, at least you know you have done what you could to avoid anything bad happening. If his wife knows about his past indiscretions, or at least his reputation, I would hope she would veto the trip to Vegas, but I don't know her or what kind of wife she is.

[SunDancer]

Hell,
If you have such a problem with this friend and his moral/ethicial decisions, then why hang out with him?

[Dutch]

Why don't you suggest to your friend that if he wants some action to talk to his wife.

[Anthony]

Hell,
If you have such a problem with this friend and his moral/ethicial decisions, then why hang out with him?


well, as i stated before his unfaithfulness was only when they were boyfriend/girlfriend. and after that when they were engaged. so technically according to the law i would imagine no harm was done. i've certainly been touchy feely with other girls before i got married. but i understood that once i got married certain avenues for pleasure were no longer available. it remains to be seen if my newlywed friend understands the new boundaries that come with marriages.

[lynchjm24]

Hypocritical? I work hard at making sure my views are consistent and void of any double standards. Certainly let me know if you ever become aware of any. As far as bibles go, you won't find me toting one anywhere. Religious causes are issues for someone else. If I was running around on my wife, I would expect that my friends would not sit idly by or cheer me on.

I wasn't accusing you of being hypocritical - I don't know you.

It must be nice to be so pure though that you can judge others.

[Julio Riddols]

If you ever find yourself in a position where you do not respect your wife or are bored and are hunting for action, be a fucking man and get a divorce. Why sneak back into the house and be forced to lie to some girl you don't even love?

But if you have kids...well, party's over, be a man.

Also...

How would you like it if you found out that your wife was screwing guys on the other side of town and all her friends knew about it?

People should always be able to give advice and opinion to their friends. Not just when it's asked for. If your friend has a problem and refuses to recognize it, but you do? Well....you gotta help him/her.

I agree with you Dutch.. Just my past experience says that very few friends who do this kind of thing are willing to pay much attention to it when you do try to talk some sense into them. In that case, I wait til they do screw themselves over because thats the only way they'll learn, if it ever even mattered in the first place.

[Tekneek]

It must be nice to be so pure though that you can judge others.

Explain what this means. Judge others? Be so pure? Please elaborate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe it's a regional deal. I believe that Tekneek is from your area as well.

Doubt that's it, since the crowd involved in the incidents I was referring was mostly military & had few native Southerners beyond me.

Meanwhile, I'm more amused that me & Tekneek just got geo-lumped into the same group. I'm pretty sure (and I think he'd agree) that we probably don't fit into the same categories on too many things.

[Axxon]

Dude, whether you've got any hard feelings about it or not, this sounds like some fucked up thought processes or something on the part of some people who still have some growing up to do. It really does read something like "let's do some guy stuff with our friends ... but only if it involves chasing women."

Damn, I really don't have a problem with single guys chasing tail, but I'd be hard pressed to remain friends if they only wanted to include me IF I was chasing too.



You know, we're really going to have to stop agreeing on so many things. One of us is going to lose the respect of our peer groups if this keeps up. ;)

Of course, I'm a single guy so to clarify, I'd never think of trying to include my married friends in my tail chasing and I would/have lost friendships because I couldn't accept their wanting to be included in said activity.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You know, we're really going to have to stop agreeing on so many things. One of us is going to lose the respect of our peer groups if this keeps up. ;)

Nah, we should be okay, I don't believe the bulk of our respective peer groups even know this place exists ;)

[Warhammer]

Having read the thread, I say invite him, but I would basically tell him that the trip is not about picking up chicks.

I would even consider sitting the guy down and telling him what a committment is, and if he cheats you are not going to cover his ass.

[Axxon]

Nah, we should be okay, I don't believe the bulk of our respective peer groups even know this place exists ;)

Point well taken. :)

[lynchjm24]

Explain what this means. Judge others? Be so pure? Please elaborate.

Well let's look at some other examples.

Know anyone who cheats on their taxes? You call the IRS?
How about anyone that uses any illegal drugs? Call the DEA?
Ever have a friend drive home drunk from a bar or a softball game? Did you alert the police to their route?
Know anyone who has cheated an insurance company? Did you turn them into the fraud division?
How about coworkers that steal time from the company, or someone who had a few drinks at lunch? Would you blow the whistle there?

I'm referring to this post:
'Maybe I am just an asshole, but I would never tolerate someone running around on their wife (or husband). If I know about it, somebody's ass is going to end up in a grinder over it. I might remind them once about their obligations and that, until they are divorced, they are off of that playing field. If they are insistent on fucking up their life, I have little tolerance for that type of nonsense. I would not want those secrets kept from me, so why would I keep them from other people?'

I take from this comment that you would 'do something about it'. Do you feel this way about every thing that has a 'victim'?

My point is before I went around taking care of these sorts of things, I'd make damn sure that I didn't have any problems of my own.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well let's look at some other examples.

Know anyone who cheats on their taxes? You call the IRS?
How about anyone that uses any illegal drugs? Call the DEA?
Ever have a friend drive home drunk from a bar or a softball game? Did you alert the police to their route?
Know anyone who has cheated an insurance company? Did you turn them into the fraud division?
How about coworkers that steal time from the company, or someone who had a few drinks at lunch? Would you blow the whistle there?


Hot damn, I love quizzes. Lemme see here ...
-- Only on occasion re:taxes & IRS
-- Absolutely re: drugs & DEA (well, appropriate law enforcement anyway)
-- I really don't have too many friends dumb enough for the DUI thing
-- Depends on how certain I was/whether I had proof, not just suspicion re:insurance fraud
-- depends on how I feel about the company, and again, on what I can provide proof, not just suspicions re: coworkers.

Point being?
These aren't even "my" questions, and I can answer affirmative to some of them. And so could others. There's a variety of ethical codes out there, and as shocking as it may be, some of those do call misbehavior into question.

[lynchjm24]

Hot damn, I love quizzes. Lemme see here ...
-- Only on occasion re:taxes & IRS
-- Absolutely re: drugs & DEA (well, appropriate law enforcement anyway)
-- I really don't have too many friends dumb enough for the DUI thing
-- Depends on how certain I was/whether I had proof, not just suspicion re:insurance fraud
-- depends on how I feel about the company, and again, on what I can provide proof, not just suspicions re: coworkers.

Point being?
These aren't even "my" questions, and I can answer affirmative to some of them. And so could others. There's a variety of ethical codes out there, and as shocking as it may be, some of those do call misbehavior into question.

Well then you should be commended. I'm not virtuous enough to do these sorts of things - as I've got my own shortcomings that I would need to address before I felt comfortable enough to report these sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure you are in minority as I do not know a single person who would call the police if their friend were smoking marijuana or an insurance company if their friend made a deal with a repair shop to cut a deal that the insurance company didn't know about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I do not know a single person who would call the police if their friend were smoking marijuana

That's sad.

[Anthony]

You know, we're really going to have to stop agreeing on so many things. One of us is going to lose the respect of our peer groups if this keeps up. ;)

Of course, I'm a single guy so to clarify, I'd never think of trying to include my married friends in my tail chasing and I would/have lost friendships because I couldn't accept their wanting to be included in said activity.

this is exactly what i'm talking about. you obviously understand that there are things you can do that aren't appropriate for married men to do.

[lynchjm24]

That's sad.

Actually I'm pretty happy about that. People know the difference between right and wrong. They also know the consequences of their actions. Having a different value system is fine, I just don't think that adults need to impart theirs on others.

Again, I guess you know lots of people who have no flaws or faults. They don't do anything wrong themselves so they have times to police others. I'm sure whereever it is in central Georgia you live it's a wonderful place, where there are few illegal acts and those few acts are quickly reported by the moralists amongst you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... and those few acts are quickly reported by the moralists amongst you.

We do what we can, we do what we can.

[Tekneek]

Well let's look at some other examples.

Know anyone who cheats on their taxes? You call the IRS?

No, I don't know anyone who, to my knowledge, does that.

How about anyone that uses any illegal drugs? Call the DEA?

I don't happen to think that simply using drugs should be a crime. If you have kids depending on you, or some other person that cannot care for themselves, then you should not be under the influence. If I knew someone that was too busy getting high to care for their kids, I would try and get them to stop and only report it if they continued. I would surely report it if they thought driving around in their vehicle was a good idea while high.

Ever have a friend drive home drunk from a bar or a softball game? Did you alert the police to their route?

I don't recall having to deal with this. If they insisted on driving themselves, I would tell them before they left that I would be phoning in a complete description to the police. I would offer to drive them myself or call a taxi first, of course.

Know anyone who has cheated an insurance company? Did you turn them into the fraud division?

No, not yet. I did have an aunt who thought it would be a good idea to defraud the Social Security system. I reported the activities, but that went nowhere.

How about coworkers that steal time from the company, or someone who had a few drinks at lunch? Would you blow the whistle there?

Having a few drinks at lunch is not, in itself, against any rules that I am aware of. Stealing time? I would report it. I don't work with anyone who is hourly, so I don't have to worry about that. I wouldn't have a problem alerting someone to that activity. Someone stealing from the company is only going to cause problems for everyone. When I worked in a call center, there was a fellow who was getting a ton of praise for his call quantity. Problem is, he never seemed to be talking whenever we walked by his cube. We decided to tip off the boss because he was getting the lion's share of bonuses and incentives but was cooking the books. One day of live monitoring by the boss and he was fired. It was better for everyone that he was stopped, because every customer he left floundering on a silent phone line was someone who might cancel and blame us for it. Beyond that, the bonuses and incentives could go to someone who was actually earning it.

I take from this comment that you would 'do something about it'. Do you feel this way about every thing that has a 'victim'?

Pretty much.

My point is before I went around taking care of these sorts of things, I'd make damn sure that I didn't have any problems of my own.

And so I do. Have you seen otherwise?

[lynchjm24]

I don't happen to think that simply using drugs should be a crime. If you have kids depending on you, or some other person that cannot care for themselves, then you should not be under the influence. If I knew someone that was too busy getting high to care for their kids, I would try and get them to stop and only report it if they continued. I would surely report it if they thought driving around in their vehicle was a good idea while high.

And so I do. Have you seen otherwise?

I have no idea what you do or do not do. My point is that most people have little place to go reporting others misdeeds as they have their own misdeeds they should be worried about. You are lucky to be in the minority that can pick and choose who's crimes should be reported.

I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe that if you thought your wife had a glass of wine too much at a company function before she headed home that you would get the police involved... but if you say so, It's not like I can prove you wrong.

[Tekneek]

I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe that if you thought your wife had a glass of wine too much at a company function before she headed home that you would get the police involved... but if you say so, It's not like I can prove you wrong.

Why would I call the police on her when I could drive her home myself?

I put a lot of effort into maintaining the same standards that I expect everyone else to have. I make every effort to not have a double standard. Maybe everyone else does that too, but they must be setting the standard so low that it hardly matters at all.

[Anthony]

cuz women in cuffs are hot!

[Tekneek]

cuz women in cuffs are hot!

I don't need the police involved to get that kind of action.

[lynchjm24]

Why would I call the police on her when I could drive her home myself?

I put a lot of effort into maintaining the same standards that I expect everyone else to have. I make every effort to not have a double standard. Maybe everyone else does that too, but they must be setting the standard so low that it hardly matters at all.


Obviously it's hypothetical. If she tells you no, don't come get me, I'm fine. It doesn't take a whole lot of booze to be legally intoxicated in most states .08 is pretty easy to get to.

I'm not saying I endorse any of the situations I've brought up. I've never done drugs, I try not to drive while intoxicated, I don't defraud the company I work for, I've never filed a false insurance claim . . . I just don't feel the need to project my values and beliefs on everyone else.

I currently know a guy who is getting a settlement from a pretty large concessions company in the range of 100k due to the fact that he is 20% disabled due to the vibrations of the truck that he drove for them. This is someone I know through someone I work with. He has hurt his back at work, but it was at a job prior to the company he is suing, when he moved furniture for a living. This poor disabled man is able to play pickup ball with us 2 nights a week at a local high school, full court for about 2 hours at a time - at what is full speed for us in our early 30's.

It's pretty clear that he is stealing from the company and the insurance company with this scam. I could very easily take a couple of pictures with a camera phone to poke some pretty big holes in this scheme. The way I look at it is, things tend to work out in the end, if he can sleep at night living like this then that is his problem, I don't really feel like it's someplace I should inject my morals or opinion.

Most of the time things like this go around. He lives with his GF and today he found out that her ex boyfriend who was just released after 7 years in prison has been coming over when he's not around. I imagine if he wasn't such a scumbag, he wouldn't date such a scumbag, and she wouldn't have such a scumbag over.... so sure, he gets his 100k (or whatever he gets after the lawyers have at it), but in the end he's still a scumbag.