FOF2K4 - a strategy guide proposal

[dawgfan]

Hey all,

I finally got the bug to play a pro football sim again and bought FOF2K4 yesterday (I'd played the first 2 FOF games, then once TCY came out I stuck to only playing that).

First off, a huge thank you to all the generous programmers out there that have created 3rd party utilities for the game. I'm actually a bit overwhelmed in trying to figure out what to use and why, but I'm sure these things will get clearer as I start playing and I use them.

In looking over the game initially and looking through the stickied reference thread, I've realized how much more complex FOF is now since the version I played. Some of the changes are familiar as they are based on advances Jim made with TCY, but he's really gone quite a bit beyond that game, especially in regards to gameplanning.

Given the complexity of the game, I've been compiling info from the sticky thread and also various threads in the strategy forum. I don't know if this has been done already, but I'm compiling the info I'm finding informative and useful into a consolidated Word file for easier reference. The thought struck me that perhaps this info could be edited to form a kind of strategy guide for FOF2K4.

Now before I commit myself to what may be a lengthy process, I'll just say that time constraints might sabotage this effort. With that caveat, I'd like to ask for some help in this effort. Along the way, I've copied a number of thread replies from people like SkyDog, QuikSand, Warhammer, gstelmack, Cap Ologist, Passacaglia and numerous others (sorry if I've ommitted you). What I'd like to do is edit the info I've compiled into a somewhat logical format and then have various FOF2K4 experts review this document and offer their additions, suggestions and critiques. Everyone whose info I've gathered I'm listing in credits at the end (again, I apologize if I leave anyone out).

My goal would be to have something akin to the FOF strategy guide that was available for the first couple of games and something that I found extremely useful. Given how complex the latest version is, I think I'm probably not the only one who finds himself a little overwhelmed at first with the game and could use the assist to fully enjoy Jim's creation.

Are there any FOF2K4 experts that would be willing to contribute their time on a project like this?

[SackAttack]

Something like this happened a few years ago with one of the earlier versions of the game, but it could probably stand to be updated somewhat. I wonder if Blackadar still has the original compilation.

[Cap Ologist]

I'll be glad to help out in anyway I can, though I by no means consider myself an expert. I've started working on one in the past, I'll see if I can find it.

[sabotai]

I wonder how much attention this would get from contributors now that MP has become an issue. I'd bet there are at least several people that would be hesitant to offer up whatever knowledge they have. I, for one, would be glad to contribute to this.

[TLK]

I'd be more than willing to share my multiplayer secrets. Then again, my team is $14 million dollars over the cap and haven't been anywhere near the end zone in our first two games. On second thought, for the better of the community, I'll keep my stratagy to myself....

[sabotai]

Much appriciated TLK. :D

[Icy]

I'm not the best expert either, but i don't mind to share what i know, i don't like what is happening now with the "multiplayer secrets". I think it's not helping at all the community and the newbies to the game that come here asking for suggestions etc. Tell me how can i be usefull for this work and i'll do it.

[Darkiller]

Something like this happened a few years ago with one of the earlier versions of the game, but it could probably stand to be updated somewhat. I wonder if Blackadar still has the original compilation.
If you are talking about the FOF2 Strategy Guide, then I have a .doc copy of it.

[Blackadar]

Something like this happened a few years ago with one of the earlier versions of the game, but it could probably stand to be updated somewhat. I wonder if Blackadar still has the original compilation.

I have it somewhere, I'm sure. But DK says he has a copy as well.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm not sure how much I know about the game, but I'd be glad to contribute in any way possible.

[dawgfan]

I have it somewhere, I'm sure. But DK says he has a copy as well.

That was the guide I was referencing in my post - it helped me a great deal when I first picked up FOF, and I think it would be even more helpful now for an updated version given how much the FOF franchise has evolved since then.

Here's what I'll do - I've got quite a bit of material I've gleaned from the board already; what I want to do now is start compiling it into a logical arrangement and re-phrase stuff that made sense in its' original context but not so much outside it so that it reads better. Once I've got a rough draft of this, I'd like to have anyone that is willing and has some confidence in their expertise to volunteer to review this draft and provide their feedback. Once that has been done, I'll incorporate that feedback as best as I can and provide a "final" draft. However, I'd like for this to be a 'living' document if you will, something that is updated as we continue to gain more knowledge of how the game works and strategies that work.

I'd be very greatful if someone were willing to host this document once it's ready.

Thanks to everyone that's already expressed an interest in contributing.

[Ben E Lou]

Here's what I'll do - I've got quite a bit of material I've gleaned from the board already.Not everything posted as "strategy" on these boards is 100% accurate, or 100% complete. http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif (javascript:emoticon(':twisted:'))

[Icy]

I won't have any problem on hosting it once done.

[sabotai]

And some of it is flat out wrong. :)

[Icy]

Not everything posted as "strategy" on these boards is 100% accurate, or 100% complete.
And some of it is flat out wrong. :)

For that we need you both to correct it :)

[sabotai]

For that we need you both to correct it :)

I'm working on it. :)

[dawgfan]

For that we need you both to correct it :)

Exactly - that's precisely why I'd like to have this info reviewed by a number of vet FOF2K4 players.

I doubt there will be a consensus of opinion on everything, but that's OK - anyplace where there is a difference of opinion there's the possibility of presenting both opinions and letting the reader choose. I think there were areas where the original strategy guide didn't have 100% agreement on everything.

Unfortunately it would seem that MP issues might make it less likely that the top players will feel comfortable sharing all they know.

[Pyser]

I'm not sure how much I know about the game...


...says the guy who is 10-0 in the enfl right now :mad:




:)

[Darkiller]

give me an email adress and I will forward you the FOF2 Strategy guide tonight when I'm back home (as a .doc file).

[Coder]

FOF Wiki!! FOF Wiki!!

Eh.. sorry

[dawgfan]

give me an email adress and I will forward you the FOF2 Strategy guide tonight when I'm back home (as a .doc file).

I'm pretty sure I still have it. If I don't, I'll let you know.

Given how much the game has been revised since then, I wonder how relevant most of it still is?

[Ben E Lou]

Exactly - that's precisely why I'd like to have this info reviewed by a number of vet FOF2K4 players.Explain to me why anyone who knows for a fact that a particular item is posted as "strategy" would want to correct it. :confused:

[Shkspr]

Because not all of us are so self-centered that we'd rather see the game die than thrive for the benefit of a couple plays a game in our silly little multiplayer leagues?

[Ben E Lou]

Because not all of us are so self-centered that we'd rather see the game die than thrive for the benefit of a couple plays a game in our silly little multiplayer leagues?The game will not die just because someone drafts the wrong players.

[jeronemitchell]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Personally, I've found it VERY frustrating to try to "learn as you go" with the MP aspect of this game. I'd love ANY strategy help that's available, and have publicly gone online with any modicum of info I've found.

[Ben E Lou]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Personally, I've found it VERY frustrating to try to "learn as you go" with the MP aspect of this game. I'd love ANY strategy help that's available, and have publicly gone online with any modicum of info I've found.You can always test things out in SP, or even set up a test multiplayer league. It definitely doesn't have to be "learn as you go."

[Warhammer]

The game will not die just because someone drafts the wrong players.

No, but when people can't figure out why they increase the PT of their star running back and he still only carries the ball 10 times a game, while his backup carries it 15 times they will.

This game has a HUGE learning curve. Some people do not want to figure things out for themselves or cannot figure things out for themselves. There are too many people out there that want to keep people in the dark so they can get an extra win or two on the season. Just because you know more about how the game models football should not determine whether you win or lose. Knowing how to exploit your opponent's weaknesses and limiting his strengths should.

Some things people are willing to share because preference plays a big role in those areas, namely drafting. Even knowing all we do about drafts, some players will become stars, others busts. So people are willing to share information there. But considering game plans? No one wants to share that info because they think they are the only ones that can figure those out. Forget that most of the time they only work with a certain set of players, etc. We can't help people with those because some one might figure out our secret.

Sorry about the rant, this is an attitude that just hacks me off.

[Warhammer]

You can always test things out in SP, or even set up a test multiplayer league. It definitely doesn't have to be "learn as you go."

You can, but that does not mean it will apply to an MP league. In SP, you can pretty much set up an offense the way you want to run it, and let it ride. I highly doubt that the AI defense changes their defense to specifically stop your team. I think it puts together a defense that will best utilize its players, there is a difference between these two ideas.

Because of this, things you learn in SP do not apply to MP. In MP, you must have an intimate knowledge of how things are run. If a player sees that you are passing downfield quite a bit, he will probably run more cover 3 or blitz to prevent you from doing this. A new player might not be able to figure out how to counter this when opposing players in an MP league gear up to stop this. Instead of figuring this out on his own, chances are, he will quit.

[Castlerock]

Explain to me why anyone who knows for a fact that a particular item is posted as "strategy" would want to correct it. :confused:
:(
Multi-player has had some rather unfortunate consequences.

[Ben E Lou]

:(
Multi-player has had some rather unfortunate consequences.I know. Be careful what you wish for. For a fairly concrete example, check out this thread: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=16524 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=16524)

In previous versions of FOF, gameplans were flying all over the place, whether the 75 Offense, the AAA, or anything in between. We got a grand total of one gameplan in the gameplan thread. That says it all right there.

[Warhammer]

I know. Be careful what you wish for. For a fairly concrete example, check out this thread: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=16524 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=16524)

In previous versions of FOF, gameplans were flying all over the place, whether the 75 Offense, the AAA, or anything in between. We got a grand total of one gameplan in the gameplan thread. That says it all right there.

I agree, and much of the "I have the game figured out and you don't" crowd has a lot to do with it. There was another thread not too long ago that had a few game plans tossed around. I think I sent Icy and someone else a game plan in that thread. My only concern is that you don't hand it to my opponent before a game. In that case, I sent Icy the entire league file so he could see why I did what I did.

Most of the time though, if you are tweaking your game plan, it should not matter if someone sees an old one because you are constantly revising it.

[dawgfan]

OK, point of clarification here - my main focus with a strategy guide is for the single-player experience. I didn't spell this out in my previous posts, and I apologize. Obviously there are some things that are universal to the game and not MP exclusive - experiments that give us a clearer picture of how the draft, player development and general offensive and defensive schemes for example. These kinds of things are what I'm most interested in documenting.

As for gameplans, I don't expect that most players will be all that willing to provide specific examples, but that's OK - as Warhammer pointed out, specific examples are usually tailor-made for particular team and often for a particular opponent. General suggestions for gameplan strategies can be provided without giving away all your secrets, and in fact Warhammer has already done so many times in the strategy forum.

Obviously the existence of MP has made some players much more reluctant to share their acquired knowledge of the game, and while that's understandable, it's also a shame. I don't expect that everyone that reviews this guide would give up all their secrets, but I'd like to think that there would be a greater willingness to share knowledge with others - this was a hallmark of this site in the past, and if that has been lost due to MP, that is a shame.

Perhaps this exercise will depend primarily on the assistance of those who don't play MP and thus don't feel a need to hold tightly to their base of knowledge.

Explain to me why anyone who knows for a fact that a particular item is posted as "strategy" would want to correct it.

I'm disappointed by this response SkyDog. Why? Because this is a community of FOF users, and wasn't the whole point of this site in the first place to share knowledge about the game for the greater enjoyment of everyone?

Are you so wrapped up in the IHOF that you are unwilling to correct tips you think are wrong and/or to supply additional info that isn't present or is underdeveloped?

[jbmagic]

i love this game

and being kind of new to FOF 5.1, i would love to learn more about gameplans, playing times,etc for Single play and Multiplay

are the secrets of FOF, so bad that it makes the game so easy to win if people found out?

i think if people can share there strategies, it makes for better competion for single play and Especially Mulitplay.

[Warhammer]

OK, point of clarification here - my main focus with a strategy guide is for the single-player experience. I didn't spell this out in my previous posts, and I apologize. Obviously there are some things that are universal to the game and not MP exclusive - experiments that give us a clearer picture of how the draft, player development and general offensive and defensive schemes for example. These kinds of things are what I'm most interested in documenting.

I understand what you are saying, but if you can handle the MP aspect, you can easily adopt it to SP. It is not so easy to move in the other direction. But as you point out, some things are universal and not limited to SP.

I think aspects of choosing coaches, coordinators, and scouts should be discussed with MP in mind because it is much easier to get a top of the line guy in SP. In MP, you are often left with taking one of the lesser coaches, and you need to figure out what you value more than anything else. The same could be said for drafting. In these areas I think having people give different points of view about each would be a great boon.

For example, you could talk about how you prefer to draft players with high volatility, while I prefer those with low volatility. What I look for in a DE, and what you look for in a DE.

[dawgfan]

Sure, makes perfect sense. I guess the perspective I'm coming from is to compile a guide with SP as the primary focus, and any advice and help that is given to differentiate the experience of SP and MP and how to adjust your strategy to succeed in MP would certainly be welcome. I just don't expect a lot of good info being volunteered that specifically pertains to how to modify your strategy to succeed in a MP envirnonment.

Basically, I'm interested in getting as much knowledge about how the mechanics of the game work and providing that; specific strategies of what to do with that information I would expect to be much less willingly shared, and I can understand that. The help file for FOF2K4 provides a skeletal framework of info, but there is a lot more that could be filled-in, and that's where a guide would come in handy. I don't expect QuikSand to spill all his strategies and FOF philosophies, but things like his case study of player development provide exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm disappointed by this response SkyDog. Why? Because this is a community of FOF users, and wasn't the whole point of this site in the first place to share knowledge about the game for the greater enjoyment of everyone?

Are you so wrapped up in the IHOF that you are unwilling to correct tips you think are wrong and/or to supply additional info that isn't present or is underdeveloped?df, I feel that Quik and I both did our parts in "reaching out" a bit, with the chemistry and drafting strategy posts, respectively. I'd venture a guess that they are the two longest individual FOF2K4 strategy posts. However, even after doing that, I've seen nothing anywhere *NEAR* the kinds of strategy discussions and breakdowns that we had for previous versions. I can only surmise is that the reasons is that people "parasited" the information given, but were unwilling to offer much else up in return.


As for warhammer's post, to some degree I think you're talking to the wrong person. If the developer chooses not to document what the 3-deep zone is vulnerable against, then isn't THAT what is (in your opinion) potentially letting the game die? Honestly, as I've said countless times, I wish things were a bit more documented, but they aren't--yet Jim has been able to support his family for years on this, so it seems that things are working well enough for him. That being said, I wish there was a simple chart included in the documentation, something along these lines....

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 558pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="743"> <col style="width: 92pt;" width="122"> <col style="width: 116pt;" width="154"> <col style="width: 152pt;" width="203"> <col style="width: 198pt;" width="264"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 92pt;" height="17" width="122">STRATEGY</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 116pt;" width="154">STRONGEST AGAINST</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 152pt;" width="203">WEAKEST AGAINST</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 198pt;" width="264">IMPORTANT PERSONNEL</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">2-deep zone</td> <td class="xl24">medium-distance passes</td> <td class="xl24">runs up the middle, short passes</td> <td class="xl24">safeties with good zone & interception skills</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">3-deep zone</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">4-deep zone</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">man-to-man (loose)</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">bump and run</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">blitzing</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">nickel package</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">dime package</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> <td class="xl24">….</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
I wouldn't want him to give away intimate numbers, but a general idea would probably be good. However, given that the information that such a chart would have is not given, but is at least to some degree discoverable through testing, a competitive edge is gained by those who take the time to test it out. (And to deal with your specific response, if you want to know what works best against a 3-deep zone, set up a multiplayer league, set the defense to play all 3-deep, set up a balanced offense, run the game 10-20 times, and look at your outside running, inside running, short/medium/long passing, see what worked, and what didn't, and compare it to 10-20 games run against a balanced defense.

[Ben E Lou]

Most of the time though, if you are tweaking your game plan, it should not matter if someone sees an old one because you are constantly revising it.Well, I agree with that. Mine changes at least a little bit every week. However, there's ample evidence that some things that I would consider pretty basic are not universally understood. For example, it became obvious in IHOF just recently that more than one person in the league didn't know how to set his gameplan up to make sure the receiver that he wanted to be double-covered was the one that actually was double-covered the vast majority of the time. That's the sort of thing that gives those who have taken the time to figure out how to do it a bit of a competitive edge.

[dawgfan]

Good points SkyDog, and I agree about wishing Jim documented his game more thoroughly.

Here's what gets me though - you make a point about how you and Quik (for example) have done some thorough documenting of certain aspects of the game and seem to imply some frustration that more hasn't been done by others. I get the sense from what you've said that you feel that you've done your part, and that the hard work of setting up and running experiments is justification for keeping the info gleaned from those experiments to yourself. I can sympathize with that idea (if that is indeed your position), though it's too bad a more altruistic ideal wasn't at the fore. Still, if you choose to not submit info that hasn't already been posted, I can understand the reasons why. But would you extend that to also choosing not to point out incorrect info or poor strategies, even if you didn't choose to supply your own info or strategies in reply? You'd be OK with letting a strategy guide go past your review and purposefully not correcting info or strategies you knew to be poor?

Publicly posted research of FOF2K4 has indeed lagged well-behind previous releases, probably due to a mix of the MP aspect and a change in the posting population here. Way back in the day, people like ez and others spent a great deal of time running tests and posting results, and later guys like Morgado were very helpful in deciphering some of the secrets of TCY. Neither of those guys posts much, if at all anymore.

Maybe instead of spending time trying to compile this document for the community, I should just run lots of experiments on the game for my own edification.

[Icy]

I typed a really long post on my notebook and when clicking the submit button the #"%& wireless connection was lost and with it my post so i'll resume it now as also Skydog expressed my opinion in part.

What most of users are asking for is not for the ultra secret tactic to win all the MP leagues (i doubt there is one, and it there is, it means it's an AI exploit that woul dkill the game enjoyment at least for me). Waht is being asked tons of times at this board is something basic like what Skydog just posted. A basic explanation of the players attributes and for what are valid, a basic explanation of the tactics and how they represent real life tactics, etc etc. Right now, i'm saving a game, realoading it hundreds of times, trying the extreme tactics etc trying to learn for what is each % etc. Also some of us don' tknow really a lot about real NFL tactics, so even less about translating them to FOF.

I find really childish, selfish and even coward to hide your knowledge because we want to win an online league, come one guys, are we as afraid of being beaten? don't we all agree that even the best startegy won't be succesfull with every roster? (unless it's an AI exploit).

and btw, warhammer, it wasn't me to who you sent that league file but anyway i have learned a lot about tactics from your posts as i have done from Skydog studies, from old Morgado studies etc. I miss that days even when i weren't a fofc member, but at least somebody took his time to try to make all the others to enjoy even more this great game.

[Ben E Lou]

Sure, makes perfect sense. I guess the perspective I'm coming from is to compile a guide with SP as the primary focus, and any advice and help that is given to differentiate the experience of SP and MP and how to adjust your strategy to succeed in MP would certainly be welcome. I just don't expect a lot of good info being volunteered that specifically pertains to how to modify your strategy to succeed in a MP envirnonment.

Basically, I'm interested in getting as much knowledge about how the mechanics of the game work and providing that; specific strategies of what to do with that information I would expect to be much less willingly shared, and I can understand that. The help file for FOF2K4 provides a skeletal framework of info, but there is a lot more that could be filled-in, and that's where a guide would come in handy. I don't expect QuikSand to spill all his strategies and FOF philosophies, but things like his case study of player development provide exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.I guess the question, as per my last post, is: "am I willing to risk giving away what I'd consider 'basic' information, only to find out that by giving it away, that guy in my league with better players than mine, but who I have been able to stick with closely game after game, all of a sudden starts whupping me because he finally realized why his guys were double-covering Darius Logan (http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=586), when all the while he wanted them double-covering Forrest Truett (http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=472)?"

Or, to give another example, for a long time, FB carries could be set all the way up to 100, rather than the 40 that the documentation purports. I *seriously* doubt that I'm the only person who was aware of this little trick to get a very good fullback more carries, but I *never* saw anyone post about it here. (I passed the info along to Jim privately.) Until this was fixed, a competitive edge could have been gained by those that had noticed this. How many people knew about it? I have no idea--but I know I wasn't going to be the one who let the owners in my league with better FB's than mine know about it if they didn't to begin with.

[Icy]

I guess the question, as per my last post, is: "am I willing to risk giving away what I'd consider 'basic' information, only to find out that by giving it away, that guy in my league with better players than mine, but who I have been able to stick with closely game after game, all of a sudden starts whupping me because he finally realized why his guys were double-covering Darius Logan (http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=586), when all the while he wanted them double-covering Forrest Truett (http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=472)?"

Or, to give another example, for a long time, FB carries could be set all the way up to 100, rather than the 40 that the documentation purports. I *seriously* doubt that I'm the only person who was aware of this little trick to get a very good fullback more carries, but I *never* saw anyone post about it here. (I passed the info along to Jim privately.) Until this was fixed, a competitive edge could have been gained by those that had noticed this. How many people knew about it? I have no idea--but I know I wasn't going to be the one who let the owners in my league with better FB's than mine know about it if they didn't to begin with.

Can't agree more with you, i want to beat or be beaten by other GMs or the AI because they are better than me guessing what will be the next strategy, or they are better drafting, or playing with the cap, but i hate to win or lose just because me or the gm playing against me doesn't know what means the finnesse % or that the best Route running WR will get most of the catches as was discovered some time ago in one of that long studies, etc.

[Ben E Lou]

Good points SkyDog, and I agree about wishing Jim documented his game more thoroughly.

Here's what gets me though - you make a point about how you and Quik (for example) have done some thorough documenting of certain aspects of the game and seem to imply some frustration that more hasn't been done by others. I get the sense from what you've said that you feel that you've done your part, and that the hard work of setting up and running experiments is justification for keeping the info gleaned from those experiments to yourself. I can sympathize with that idea (if that is indeed your position), though it's too bad a more altruistic ideal wasn't at the fore.To some degree, yeah, that's my position. When, for example, I ran some pretty extensive tests on FOF2K1 to find out how passes were getting distributed, I felt like I was contributing to a body of knowledge that many were giving *AND* taking from. Now, it feels a little like any information I give out is only going to be used against me, with the likelihood of getting anything in return being pretty low.

[dawgfan]

Well SkyDog, both your examples are situations I look at as things that ought to be made public.

Regarding the double-teaming example - you were able to hang tight despite an inferior roster, not necessarily because your game plan strategy was better, but because the other owner hadn't figured out a basic game mechanic. Do I blame you for not wanting to tell that owner what he was doing wrong? No. Do I think that something like this ought to be more clear in the game documentation and the UI screens? Yes - the ability to ensure that your team is in fact double-teaming the WR you intend to shouldn't be confusing. In this example, you are holding onto information that shouldn't have to be a secret in the first place. I'm not asking you to reveal gameplan strategies that exploit his weaknesses, but a basic gameplay mechanic like this should be open knowledge, and if this is sacrificed for the sake of MP gaming, I think that's a real shame.

Same thing with the FB carries example - sounds like this was a bug in the game that you were exploiting. If the documentation says FB carries are limited to a setting of 40, but that was incorrect, this is a bug. Not sharing info about a bug just to gain an advantage in MP is a real shame IMO.

[Ben E Lou]

What most of users are asking for is not for the ultra secret tactic to win all the MP leagues (i doubt there is one, and it there is, it means it's an AI exploit that woul dkill the game enjoyment at least for me). Waht is being asked tons of times at this board is something basic like what Skydog just posted. A basic explanation of the players attributes and for what are valid, a basic explanation of the tactics and how they represent real life tactics, etc etc.Agreed. I'm fairly certain there is no "ultra-secret tactic" to win in MP. I guess what I'm saying is this:

1. The kind of chart I posted is not in the documentation.
2. In order to fill in that entire chart definitively, one would need to run dozens (hundreds?) of tests run, and then compile the stats, to make sure.
3. It would be very difficult to put the amount of time that #2 requires in, and then post, knowing that by posting, all you're doing is hurting your chances of winning.

Perhaps I'm more competitive than most, because I'm in a league with guys with whom I've got pretty extensive message board history: tens of thousands of posts overall, hundreds of posts per week, for 5 or 6 years. That level of interaction with people makes them more like crosstown rivals that MUST go down. http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif (javascript:emoticon(':twisted:'))

[Icy]

Perhaps I'm more competitive than most, because I'm in a league with guys with whom I've got pretty extensive message board history: tens of thousands of posts overall, hundreds of posts per week, for 5 or 6 years. That level of interaction with people makes them more like crosstown rivals that MUST go down. http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif (javascript:emoticon(':twisted:'))

But i'm pretty sure that you would feel much more proud if you would win them just because your football knowledge, better cap and draft management, etc than because you guessed something about how a game was programmed and you're using that to beat them.

I'm so competitive too, and for that reason i want to beat everybody knowing i'm better than them, to win them knowing that they know less than me about a game feature would be like cheating myself when playing solitaire with cards.

[Icy]

Dola: Of course this is not aimed at you skydog as you have been one of the few guys here who has spent lots of time on your studies about the game.
I also respect who doesn't want to share anything, but i think that this thread could help for a bunch of us to try to run tests toghether and groupthink about the results.

[Ben E Lou]

Same thing with the FB carries example - sounds like this was a bug in the game that you were exploiting. If the documentation says FB carries are limited to a setting of 40, but that was incorrect, this is a bug. Not sharing info about a bug just to gain an advantage in MP is a real shame IMO.I agree--to a certain extent. I did pass the info along to Jim the very day I ran the tests confirming that bumping it up to 100 made a difference in the number of carries they got--that it wasn't just a cosmetic issue. It was fixed in the next patch--several weeks or more later, if I recall, but before the first IHOF game.

Point being, I have serious doubts that I'm the only one that noticed this in all of that time.

[Ben E Lou]

But i'm pretty sure that you would feel much more proud if you would win them just because your football knowledge, better cap and draft management, etc than because you guessed something about how a game was programmed and you're using that to beat them.

I'm so competitive too, and for that reason i want to beat everybody knowing i'm better than them, to win them knowing that they know less than me about a game feature would be like cheating myself when playing solitaire with cards.In this case, it is different. Jim has chosen to make some things in FOF "puzzles," so to speak. If I've taken the time to gather data and correctly analyze it, and that time spent gives me a slight advantage in an area or two, then that gives me that same level of satisfaction. Ultimately, text sims are huge mathematical problems in optimization.

[dawgfan]

Point being, I have serious doubts that I'm the only one that noticed this in all of that time.

Well, if that's true, and if MP is the primary reason why info like that would be withheld from the community at large, that's a real unfortunate side-effect of MP.

The thing is, I originally started this project purely for my own edification - an attempt to gather in one document all the various info about how FOF2K4 works and strategies to employ. It occurred to me that with a little extra effort, this project could be made public and benefit the whole community rather than just me. I think I've been quite willing to share info in the past, particularly TCY where I felt I had some expertise, and I thought this would be another way to help give back to the community.

I suppose though I could just save the time and effort and focus instead on running various tests and experiments on FOF2K4 for my own benefit.

[dawgfan]

In this case, it is different. Jim has chosen to make some things in FOF "puzzles," so to speak. If I've taken the time to gather data and correctly analyze it, and that time spent gives me a slight advantage in an area or two, then that gives me that same level of satisfaction. Ultimately, text sims are huge mathematical problems in optimization.

I guess I don't see how either example is a "puzzle" to be figured out. The FB example is a clear case of a bug in documentation.

In the WR double-teaming example, I fail to see how this should be something that should be a puzzle to figure out; a real coach has no such "puzzle" issues - he tells one of his defenders to double-team a particular receiver and how often. FOF should be similarly transparent in this regard - knowing how to set your gameplans so that you are actually doing what you intend to do shouldn't be a puzzle.

[Ben E Lou]

I suppose though I could just save the time and effort and focus instead on running various tests and experiments on FOF2K4 for my own benefit.Don't get me wrong. People would use it, but based on past experience, I doubt you'd get nearly as much feedback on it as you'd hope for. Just take a look at the strategy forum. You'll never SEE so many threads with less than 10 responses, but well over 100 views in your lifetime, other than ones titled "PING: SkyDog." ;) People are reading the stuff, looking for a tidbit here or there, but they're not contributing.

[dawgfan]

Well, that's unfortunate. This community used to be a great source for valuable insights into Jim's game. If this has declined, that's a real shame. How much of it is due to MP, and how much is due to changes in the composition of the FOFC populace? I dunno.

I'll likely still compile a document and post requests for others to review and supply feedback; if response is tepid and little help is returned, so be it - the document will only be as good as the amount of help provided in putting it together, and the document will note as such.

If you choose not to contribute any more than you already have to these boards (and what you've done already is highly appreciated), that's obviously your call and I understand why, though I'd be disappointed given your level of experience with the game.

[Ben E Lou]

FOF should be similarly transparent in this regard - knowing how to set your gameplans so that you are actually doing what you intend to do shouldn't be a puzzle.I agree with you there that it *should* be, but reality is that it simply isn't that way.

There's also a real-life vs. game element coming into play here as well, I think. In real life, if a team were to come into a game playing 100% 3-deep zone, and the other team was throwing deep most of the time, the offense would, in all likelihood, counter by throwing short a lot more as the game wore on. This doesn't happen in FOF, though. If you set your gameplan to throw deep 75% of the time, it will continue to do so, even if the opposition is sitting back. As a result, by nature it is an "imperfect" representation of the challenge of football strategy. The upshot, then, is that perhaps the "puzzles" are a necessary evil. Just speculating a bit there...

[Ben E Lou]

Well, that's unfortunate. This community used to be a great source for valuable insights into Jim's game. If this has declined, that's a real shame. How much of it is due to MP, and how much is due to changes in the composition of the FOFC populace? I dunno.I'd say that it is primarily the former. There may be some different people here, but a whole lot of regulars are still around form all the way back to The Sideline. By nature, this kind of game and this kind of board is going to always attract a population geeky enough to run the kind of tests necessary. ;)

[dawgfan]

I agree with you there that it *should* be, but reality is that it simply isn't that way.

There's also a real-life vs. game element coming into play here as well, I think. In real life, if a team were to come into a game playing 100% 3-deep zone, and the other team was throwing deep most of the time, the offense would, in all likelihood, counter by throwing short a lot more as the game wore on. This doesn't happen in FOF, though. If you set your gameplan to throw deep 75% of the time, it will continue to do so, even if the opposition is sitting back. As a result, by nature it is an "imperfect" representation of the challenge of football strategy. The upshot, then, is that perhaps the "puzzles" are a necessary evil. Just speculating a bit there...

I agree, but I think this example and the "double-team the receiver" one aren't exactly the same. If the game has settings allowing you to double-team a particular receiver, it shouldn't be a mystery as to how to do so. This is something that is easily mapped to real football, while the decision of how often to employ a particular strategy when faced with certain opposition strategies is much more complex (and thus the more complex gameplan screens as Jim progresses through the FOF series).

Ultimately, some of what would comprise a strategy guide is simply "filling in the blanks" if you will of the FOF Help section. This is the kind of stuff that I would think the community would be most willing to contribute - stuff that might not be obvious based on the game interface and the help section, but basics that you ought to know. Going beyond that and getting more into strategy tips is obviously less likely to generate contributions, especially with the presense of MP as a game feature, but I'll make use of what has already been posted and hope for additional feedback; if none arrives, then so be it.

Perhaps I'll also have time during and after this project to also run my own tests and studies and post them. I don't have any plans at present to play MP, so it's no skin off my back to share what I learn...

[Warhammer]

and btw, warhammer, it wasn't me to who you sent that league file but anyway i have learned a lot about tactics from your posts as i have done from Skydog studies, from old Morgado studies etc. I miss that days even when i weren't a fofc member, but at least somebody took his time to try to make all the others to enjoy even more this great game.

Sorry, I thought it was you. I guess I just need to go back and read my posts! I know I sent one to two people! :)

[yabanci]

what is all this talk about how to double team a receiver? What was the misunderstanding?

[Ben E Lou]

what is all this talk about how to double team a receiver? What was the misunderstanding?At least two people in IHOF were having problems with it, and one or two others clearly didn't have much of an understanding as to how it works:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3620&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

[jbmagic]

Sorry, I thought it was you. I guess I just need to go back and read my posts! I know I sent one to two people! :)


it was me who you email it to. it helps a lot of the explanation of how to setup a gameplan in the game strategy forum you reply too.

thanks again.

[sabotai]

TO put my money where my mouth is, figuratively of course, I posted a test I did on the effect of blocking strength on the rushing game in the strat section.

[dawgfan]

Thanks sab - I've added it to the document.

[jeronemitchell]

I've posted a number of observations I've made about anything I find in the strategy section. I created a test MP league, and that is what I'm using to "learn" how the game works.

With that said, it is hard for me to want to continue playing. You're telling me that Double-Team WR does NOT work correctly, and noone has said anything obvious (by obvious, I mean "I don't have to trudge through a 5 page thread in a league I don't play in to get an answer)? There's a bug in the FB logic and noone says anything because they are afraid of it getting exploited?

I teach high school, and one of my students asked me today about why I don't play online games, for the most part. I responded that most of my experience found online gamers using the same techniques to find broken portions of games and eliminate any attempt to play the game in favor of winning. I'm very disappointed to find that FOF is just as bad.

[Ben E Lou]

You're telling me that Double-Team WR does NOT work correctlyNo, it works correctly, as far as I can tell. All you have to do is correctly discern how the guy is going to be used, and/or scout him correctly, and plug in numbers accordingly.

There's a bug in the FB logic and noone says anything because they are afraid of it getting exploited?No, as I said, I reported it to Jim within minutes of finding it, and he fixed it. My contention is simply that I have doubts that I was the only one who noticed it.

[jeronemitchell]

[QUOTE=SkyDog]No, it works correctly, as far as I can tell. All you have to do is correctly discern how the guy is going to be used, and/or scout him correctly, and plug in numbers accordingly.
[QUOTE]

So actual stats don't matter... only performace (attempts and completions)? Cool... good to know. Thanks! :D

[hitmanwa]

I was just wondering if this was still in the works. I'm greatly looking forward to this.

I don't know the ins and outs like a lot of you guys but if there's anything I can do to help please ask. If anything I can compile specific posts on specific issues and get it to whomever. Anyhow, just offering to do what I can to help.

Thanks,

[dawgfan]

At this point what I have is a compilation of what I'd consider the best and most informative posts linked in the sticky thread and from the strategies forum and in a Word .doc.

I took some time last night to review the old FOF2 strategy guide, and it was daunting - it's very well-researched and extremely in-depth. At this point I don't think I have the time to devote to do a similar job.

The other thing that struck me re-reading that older guide is the amount of info gleaned from Jim from chats or posts on the old forum. I don't know if Jim does that much anymore - I don't recall seeing much of that recently - but I may not be the best candidate for this job anyway since I'm late to FOF2K4 and certainly nowhere near an expert on this version of the game at this point.

I'd be happy to forward what I've compiled so far if someone else wants to take a stab at editing and creating a new guide. Otherwise I think I'm going to move slowly on this and start piecing things together, between updating the stuff that's still pertinent from the old guide, adapting info from the help section in the game and adding in info from the strategy forum. Also, I'm going to try and assemble as much info as I can on the various utilities that others have written for the game, distilling how best to use any or all of them to improve the FOF experience.

[hitmanwa]

Ok, I felt like this as the best thing to do and had thought of doing it myself. It wouldn't be anything more than taking the info I can find on the forums and compiling it. Maybe it could be separated and different people take different categories. Mentors, Coverage, etc. Anyhow, anything I can do to help feel fre to ask.