Star Wars I: Phantom Menace - WTF?

[Dutch]

I watched it again last night for the first time since it game out....and I enjoyed it??? What's up with that? I hated that movie. Does that mean there is something wrong with me?

Jar-Jar was still goofy, to be sure, but not nearly as annoying as when watching it at the movies. I didn't want to reach through the screen and strangle him this time.

And Darth Maul was much spookier than I remember and cooler, maybe because he wasn't on the side of every single fast food drink cup for months prior to the last showing I watched.

I don't know, but it was a much better movie this time. I know that is a dissapointment for some people to hear, and I'm sort of freaked out that I liked it.

Strange.

[Suicane75]

Get the fuck out of my house mister!@!@@!!!!

[cthomer5000]

were you on any unauthrozied prescription medications?

[Tigercat]

I recently bought both prequels to watch before Sith, didn't like PM after watching it only once in the theatres but liked AOTCs enough. Anyway, I had the same reaction after watching PM again after 6 years, I actually enjoyed it this go around. I find Maul kind of interesting as a Sith, he seems almost too loyal for a Sith. Maybe he hasn't been an apprentice long enough to be ready to start disobeying his master.

[Suicane75]

6 years? Holy crap does time fly. That just threw me for a loop.

[Celeval]

What utterly ruined the movie for me was things like "Ooooh, no matter what system (galaxy?) you're from, that's gotta hurt!".

*sigh*

[Easy Mac]

meesuh think yousen guys es crazzzzzzzzzyyyyyyy

[Suicane75]

meesuh think yousen guys es crazzzzzzzzzyyyyyyy
I wish fozie was here to Keeel you now.

[Easy Mac]

So, does anyone know what happened to the dual-edged light saber? I know DM's was destroyed, but surely in the 35-40 years between 1 and 6, someone whould have thought to make another one. Or am I just thinking too much about a series that prominently involved small furry Shorty's?

[Buzzbee]

You probably liked the Phantom Menace more because you have now seen Attack of the Clones and can compare PM to total crap, making PM look better than it really is.

[Tigercat]

Well according to KOTOR, double bladers are almost exclusively used by the Sith because to use one requires more chaotic techniques of fighting and battle. To illustrate the difference between that just look at when Qui Gon(sp?) and Maul are facing off seperated by the force field. Maul with intensity and aggression on his face towards his opponent and Qui Gon meditating and focusing inward. Apparently its much easier to focus inward on technique with one blade than when you have two blades sticking out. So perhaps if there were more Sith around one would see more double bladers, because supposedly they have been around for forever as well. Of course the real explanation is they are only needed when you want to make an character bad-ass.

[NoMyths]

I watched it again last night for the first time since it game out....and I enjoyed it??? What's up with that? I hated that movie. Does that mean there is something wrong with me?Well, I think you know what my answer would be. ;)

Yeah, that film is an absolute steaming pantload.

[ice4277]

Maybe they just couldn't find a way to do properly do the double-sided lightsabaer effect in IV-VI?

[Warhammer]

I watched it again last night for the first time since it game out....and I enjoyed it??? What's up with that? I hated that movie. Does that mean there is something wrong with me?

Jar-Jar was still goofy, to be sure, but not nearly as annoying as when watching it at the movies. I didn't want to reach through the screen and strangle him this time.

And Darth Maul was much spookier than I remember and cooler, maybe because he wasn't on the side of every single fast food drink cup for months prior to the last showing I watched.

I don't know, but it was a much better movie this time. I know that is a dissapointment for some people to hear, and I'm sort of freaked out that I liked it.

Strange.

This is what I have been saying for years. If you go into the 2nd or 3rd time watching it with an open mind it is actually a pretty good moving. ATOC was the only movie that got worse the more I watched it.

[Desnudo]

This is what I have been saying for years. If you go into the 2nd or 3rd time watching it with an open mind it is actually a pretty good moving. ATOC was the only movie that got worse the more I watched it.

The only time I've seen it is on video, twice, and I disagree. Horrible wooden acting, written for 8 year olds, overreliance on special effects, I could go on and on. None of that gets better with age. If the title wasn't "Star Wars," it would be just another two star action movie on TNT that no one remembers.

[Warhammer]

The only time I've seen it is on video, twice, and I disagree. Horrible wooden acting, written for 8 year olds, overreliance on special effects, I could go on and on. None of that gets better with age. If the title wasn't "Star Wars," it would be just another two star action movie on TNT that no one remembers.

OK, aside from Portman, who could have been replaced by a board, who gave a poor performance? I thought if anything some of the actors seemed snooty, which fits into my idea of the people in a failing Republic or Empire.

[Desnudo]

OK, aside from Portman, who could have been replaced by a board, who gave a poor performance? I thought if anything some of the actors seemed snooty, which fits into my idea of the people in a failing Republic or Empire.

Anakin's wooden mom, Samuel "Wooden" Jackson, the wooden kid playing Anakin, all of the wooden Naboo guards and maids. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were okay, probably a victim of their lines, but you never felt like they were taking anything seriously. Like it was all one big joke, ruining the atmosphere for me. Maybe that's bad directing, versus bad acting. It's like oh, here's a bunch of robots we have to kill, let's drop one liners and smile the whole time. They tried to replicate the humor from the first trilogy, but missed the mark.

A better question would be, "who was a good actor in the movie?" I'd say the Senator, and that's it.

[Pyser]

thats star wars in a nutshell. any episode. it seems kind of pointless to start complaining about the acting now.

[Desnudo]

I liked the acting, for the most part, in the first trilogy.

[bigphesta]

The only time I've seen it is on video, twice, and I disagree. Horrible wooden acting, written for 8 year olds, overreliance on special effects, I could go on and on. None of that gets better with age. If the title wasn't "Star Wars," it would be just another two star action movie on TNT that no one remembers.
Obviously you don't get it as that is EXACTLY what your parents said 20 years ago when you watched ANH for the first time. The movie is made to suck in 8 year olds, not 20 yr olds - cause your parents are not shelling out 7.99 per action figure and you don't need to have them all - but my brother is shelling out that for each one of the new trilogy figures because EIGHT YEAR OLDS LOVE IT.

[MJ4H]

The soundtrack from phantom menace is so much better than the soundtrack from att ack of the clones, it is quite surprising. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I thought I would mention it. I absolutely love the soundtrack from PM. AOTC has one good new theme, and the rest is just filler or rehashed old stuff. PM has probably 10 good new themes, maybe more.

[dawgfan]

Obviously you don't get it as that is EXACTLY what your parents said 20 years ago when you watched ANH for the first time. The movie is made to suck in 8 year olds, not 20 yr olds - cause your parents are not shelling out 7.99 per action figure and you don't need to have them all - but my brother is shelling out that for each one of the new trilogy figures because EIGHT YEAR OLDS LOVE IT.

A gross oversimplification. Mark Hamill isn't a great actor, but he was far more tolerable as a pouting teenager in A New Hope than Hayden Christensen in Attack Of The Clones. Harrison Ford was perfect as the cynical, wise-cracking Han Solo. Alec Guiness was outstanding as always. Carrie Fisher brought a lot more spunk and life to her character than Natalie Portman.

In addition, the script and story are superior in A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back than either of the 2 prequels. And there was nothing as grating in the first 3 movies as the stupid announcers in the race sequence.

Giving a physical description of the Force and how it works was a horrible decision; the storyline for Phantom Menace was nowhere near as compelling as the first 3 movies; the borderline racially offensive characters like Jar-Jar and Watto were poor decisions; etc.

Yes, both sets of movies were aimed at being crowd-pleasers and appealing to 8-year olds and the 8-year old in all of us, but one set did it much better.

I should note that the downturn really was Return Of The Jedi - that was a big letdown from A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

As for the original post, I guess my reaction would be that it's a great example of how expectations affect perception of quality. Going in to that movie originally, we all had very high expectations. Now, after so many years and so much criticism of it, your expectations were likely far lower, and thus easier to surpass. It's not a horrible movie per se - it's just that it doesn't live up to the originals.

[Coop]

I met Darth Maul (Ray Park), he was a nice guy. BTW all of the star wars movies were garbage besides ESB

[finkenst]

The soundtrack from phantom menace is so much better than the soundtrack from att ack of the clones, it is quite surprising. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I thought I would mention it. I absolutely love the soundtrack from PM. AOTC has one good new theme, and the rest is just filler or rehashed old stuff. PM has probably 10 good new themes, maybe more.
Hmm. MJ4H, what's your opinion of the soundtracks from ANH -> ESB -> RotJ? I wonder if there isn't some likelihood, that your opinion would be the same on the three soundtracks..

[cthomer5000]

Once again, those who claim these are on par with the original trilogy are full of shit.

Jedi has some issues, but even being the worst of the original 3, it's light years better than these recent steaming piles of crap.

[Neuqua]

I never minded the first two Star Wars movies because I figured that honestly no matter how good they were there were going to be there was no way they'd live up to the hype. If you go in to the theater expecting just to relax for a few hours n watch a 6 part story slowly be put together, it's a more enjoyable experience.

Darth Maul is actually my favorite villain from the series. Watching him fight with the dual light sabers was as exciting as it can get for a Star Wars fan.

[Dutch]

Okay, thanks to everybody that verified my lack of sanity. I was just making sure. :)

I think the lack of hype definately allowed me to see the movie in a different light.

Also, Darth Maul was definately a great SW villian and very good with that double edge saber. Vader still takes the cake however because he has (had?) the James Earl Jones voice and the heavy breathing thing down to a science. :)

I know the commercialism of SWIII is through the roof right now and I am trying as hard as I can to ignore it so I can just go in and watch the movie without too much overdose on Vader before hand.

[Ksyrup]

6 years? Holy crap does time fly. That just threw me for a loop.
That was one of the last movies my wife and I saw before we had kids and never returned to a theater (by ourselves, anyway), so that would be about right.

[JeffR]

Also, Darth Maul was definately a great SW villian

Darth Vader is a great villain. You know that a half-hour into ANH; he's so bad he strangles other bad guys with his mind, and then he blows up an entire planet. And he only gets more interesting as Episodes 4-6 progress.

Darth Maul is eye-candy. He looks cool, and has a couple of neat fight sequences, but he contributes nothing to the story. He's the evil version of an ewok, just there for the merchandise possibilities.

[timmynausea]

Darth Vader is a great villain. You know that a half-hour into ANH; he's so bad he strangles other bad guys with his mind, and then he blows up an entire planet. And he only gets more interesting as Episodes 4-6 progress.

Darth Maul is eye-candy. He looks cool, and has a couple of neat fight sequences, but he contributes nothing to the story. He's the evil version of an ewok, just there for the merchandise possibilities.
Agreed. Darth Maul had two lines.

[Neuqua]

Well obviously Vader is the premiere villain in arguably any movie, I just enjoyed watching Maul's pure aggresion and quickness in his lightsaber duels. I kind of wish that he had more screen time. Dooku was a bore.

[MJ4H]

Hmm. MJ4H, what's your opinion of the soundtracks from ANH -> ESB -> RotJ? I wonder if there isn't some likelihood, that your opinion would be the same on the three soundtracks..
ANH soundtrack was great obviously. ESB and RotJ contribute a lot of new themes and are outstanding in their own right. They do not suffer the same drop in quality as the one from PM to AoTC. AoTC by far the worst in the whole series, in my opinion (which differs from some critics' opinions, as I've read some startingly good reviews from people I otherwise normally agree with).

[Easy Mac]

So is Dooku a Sith as well?

[ISiddiqui]

I think the lack of hype definately allowed me to see the movie in a different light.
Yep... lack of positive pre-movie hype and lack of negative fandriven hype. I know people who say TPM said it was ok and then later, after all the bashing, started saying it was the worst movie ever... WTF?

If you take all the good and bad hype out of it and just watch it without preconception, it isn't a culture destroying film as portrayed to be.

And you find all the complaints about how horrid the acting is to be assinine, especially if you watch them after watching the Star Wars DVDs. The same crap acting is in the first three.

[Easy Mac]

I'd say the writing was a little better in the first trilogy. It had a little more snappiness to it. Add poor writing with poor acting, and its just poor. That, and having George Lucas tell you that the force is really just a bunch of little molecules kind of takes the fun out of it.

[Schmidty]

If PM and ATOC had been written in the same way that the "Silmarillion" was - as history, then it might have been more interesting. Jake What's-his-face is the WORST child actor ever and totally ruined the movie for me. The only people I liked in PM were Liam Neeson, Ian McDiarmid, and Frank Oz (he's pure). Everyone else was horrid. Terribly long pauses before interruptions, unexpressive faces, lack of real earthy humor.........yuck. Just awful.

But i still hold out hope for RotS.

[Chubby]

the problem with the prequels is you already knew what would happen. any twists would be (and are) lame. Fans have been waiting for III all along, not a pod racing 8 yr old or a love story.

personally, I and II should have been I. Sith should have been II and III should have been about the Jedi Purge which would have led into IV more naturally IMO.

[Schmidty]

And you find all the complaints about how horrid the acting is to be assinine, especially if you watch them after watching the Star Wars DVDs. The same crap acting is in the first three.

I totally disgree. I just watched the trilogy last week, and I found the acting to be campy, but good and fun (Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, Carrie Fisher, etc.). Those movies were fun and breezy, but the new movies seems contrived and horribly forced. This is from a guy who likes movies that critics bash, such as "National Treasure". I NEVER trust critics and certainly never "follow" the crowd. Hell, I didn't even have internet access until 2001.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

You brought this into my house?, Youre gonna go blind.

[BrianD]

Anakin's wooden mom, Samuel "Wooden" Jackson, the wooden kid playing Anakin, all of the wooden Naboo guards and maids. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were okay, probably a victim of their lines, but you never felt like they were taking anything seriously. Like it was all one big joke, ruining the atmosphere for me. Maybe that's bad directing, versus bad acting. It's like oh, here's a bunch of robots we have to kill, let's drop one liners and smile the whole time. They tried to replicate the humor from the first trilogy, but missed the mark.

A better question would be, "who was a good actor in the movie?" I'd say the Senator, and that's it.

I'm coming in late to the party, but I think the semi-seriousness of Neeson and McGregor is very intentional. At this point in the movie, everything is going great for the good guys. The galaxy has been pretty peaceful, the Jedi are the ultimate power, and life is good. There is no sense of struggle because there is no struggle. Any scrape the Jedi get into is a joke because there is nothing they can't handle. As the movies go on, everybody realizes that they aren't as well off as they think.

[Suicane75]

the problem with the prequels is you already knew what would happen. any twists would be (and are) lame. Fans have been waiting for III all along, not a pod racing 8 yr old or a love story.

personally, I and II should have been I. Sith should have been II and III should have been about the Jedi Purge which would have led into IV more naturally IMO.
I very much agree that the movies should of been condensed when it came to the stories covered in the first 2 and elongated in the story of EP 3.

In my opinion you could have covered the first 2 movies in 1 by eliminating the fluff and crap, and the final battle, which looks amazing, stretched out over the final 2 installments.

[Pyser]

i found the lucas interview in entertainment weekly amazing.

he basically says that he had stuff vaguel sketched out in his mind for the prequels...and of that, 60% was for episode 3. meaning he had only 40% of a story left for episodes 1 and 2, or 20% each.

that, to me, is incredibly telling. he says he filled up the rest with stuff he just thought was cool.

[cuervo72]

That was one of the last movies my wife and I saw before we had kids and never returned to a theater (by ourselves, anyway), so that would be about right.

You know, I think that may have been the last movie my wife and I saw by ourselves too.

(still haven't seen AoTC)

[finkenst]

the problem with the prequels is you already knew what would happen. any twists would be (and are) lame. Fans have been waiting for III all along, not a pod racing 8 yr old or a love story.

personally, I and II should have been I. Sith should have been II and III should have been about the Jedi Purge which would have led into IV more naturally IMO.
with an interlude of 16-22 years (however old the twins were)...

also, it would seem that the empire had it great and things were wonderful for them until the twins matured...

[Desnudo]

I'm coming in late to the party, but I think the semi-seriousness of Neeson and McGregor is very intentional. At this point in the movie, everything is going great for the good guys. The galaxy has been pretty peaceful, the Jedi are the ultimate power, and life is good. There is no sense of struggle because there is no struggle. Any scrape the Jedi get into is a joke because there is nothing they can't handle. As the movies go on, everybody realizes that they aren't as well off as they think.

I think you're seeing what you want to see there. I just saw either bad acting, bad lines, or both.

[Desnudo]

I totally disgree. I just watched the trilogy last week, and I found the acting to be campy, but good and fun (Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, Carrie Fisher, etc.). Those movies were fun and breezy, but the new movies seems contrived and horribly forced. This is from a guy who likes movies that critics bash, such as "National Treasure". I NEVER trust critics and certainly never "follow" the crowd. Hell, I didn't even have internet access until 2001.

The difference for me has always been that I felt like I was watching Han Solo, or Princess Leia, or whoever. In the second set, I felt like was watching actors playing the role of the various characters. Like I think of Princess Leia as Princess Leia, but I think of Princess Amald... as Natalie Portman, when watching the movies.

[Sharpieman]

I'm watchign it right now...its not as bad as when I first saw it, but still bad.

[Neuqua]

The difference for me has always been that I felt like I was watching Han Solo, or Princess Leia, or whoever. In the second set, I felt like was watching actors playing the role of the various characters. Like I think of Princess Leia as Princess Leia, but I think of Princess Amald... as Natalie Portman, when watching the movies.

Well, how old were you when you first watched the originals? It's easier to think what you are watching on the screen is really happening when you are young and your imaginations are running wild. You know better when you are an adult though.

[sabotai]

The two things that really annoy me about TPM are Jar Jar and the Droids. I mean, the droids are like mechanical Jar Jars. "Roger Roger!". WTF!? Every wsingel driod giving out orders is named Roger!?

Lucas was trying way too hard in TPM to draw in the younger audience and just annoyed the older audience.

However, armed with the ability to tune that stuff out, I don't find TPM to be all that bad. I also think AOTC was better (armed with the ability to tune out Anakin's super cheesy pick up lines).

I'm only talking about the entertainment value of the movies. Lucas, however, has destroyed my interest in the Star Wars universe with his constant "tieing in"s. (Anakin built C-3P0, Anakin had R2D2 in his ship when fighting, Anakin meets the people that Obi-Wan hides Luke with.....Anakin must have smoked a lot of doped to not remember the droids or people he has met and BUILT HIMSELF!....*sigh*)

[Coder]

I'm only talking about the entertainment value of the movies. Lucas, however, has destroyed my interest in the Star Wars universe with his constant "tieing in"s. (Anakin built C-3P0, Anakin had R2D2 in his ship when fighting, Anakin meets the people that Obi-Wan hides Luke with.....Anakin must have smoked a lot of doped to not remember the droids or people he has met and BUILT HIMSELF!....*sigh*)

See.. i was sitting here, reading this thread, actually started thinking that "hey, maybe I should give the movie another shot".. then you reminded me.. thanks Sab... I almost went out and bought TPM, but you saved me. I HATE THE TIE-INS. I also can't stand movies where little kids are the central characters.. out with them.. throw them in the garbage.

[Antmeister]

I met Darth Maul (Ray Park), he was a nice guy. BTW all of the star wars movies were garbage besides ESB

Yeah, what a career this guy has had already. He plays Darth Maul and then he plays Toad in the X-Men. Not a lot of lines, but very memorable characters.

[Warhammer]

Anakin's wooden mom, Samuel "Wooden" Jackson, the wooden kid playing Anakin, all of the wooden Naboo guards and maids. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were okay, probably a victim of their lines, but you never felt like they were taking anything seriously. Like it was all one big joke, ruining the atmosphere for me. Maybe that's bad directing, versus bad acting. It's like oh, here's a bunch of robots we have to kill, let's drop one liners and smile the whole time. They tried to replicate the humor from the first trilogy, but missed the mark.

A better question would be, "who was a good actor in the movie?" I'd say the Senator, and that's it.

I'll spot you the mom, but I thought the rest was part of the times. There was a lot of pomp and circumstance in the movie while they were on Naboo, and I thought the guards and maids performance fit that perfectly.

I thought Obi Wan was fine. I love the beginning when they were fighting the droids in the hall. Obi Wan basically did exactly what I figured an 18 year old Jedi would do.

I thought Neeson wasn't having any fun during the movie, but I thought he did a great job with Qui Gonn.

I will agree with you about the humor. Unlike the first trilogy where the humor was more natural and fit the characters, they are trying too hard in these movies to get a laugh.

[Anthony]

I also can't stand movies where little kids are the central characters.. out with them.. throw them in the garbage.

or.....get a whole bunch of them, put them in a gymnasium and fight them to the death like they were 5 year olds. :cool:

[Anthony]

one thing i think you guys are missing out on is Lucas' intentions:

we might just be reading into too much here. might just be that these movies really were for the kids and the kids in all of us. not meant to be scientifical dissertations on redemtion and destiny. the movies - all of them - have the same kind of quality (the newer movies probably have a bigger advantage in the special FX dept.). the purist in us looks at the trilogy with rose colored glasses. case in point, ESB - the generally accepted "gem" of the series - has some awful special effects. when Luke is in the cave being hung upside down by that snowbeast and winds up killing it...that thing couldn't have looked any more fake. the aliens in the Cantina in Ep. 4 are B-movie quality at best.

so i think people are setting the bar too high for these movies. the acting and dialogue is not of a high quality, but what exactly are you requiring out of movies with a robot with a British accent, the main character talks to a little green puppet and a 7 foot hairy monkey flies a spaceship. relax, watch the movies, eat some popcorn, and move on.

[Blackadar]

TPM was on again last night. It really is a bad movie. Jar Jar is still horrible. The interaction between Annie and his Mother is awful. The acting is pretty wooden in many places. It's really a very boring movie with two good sequences - the pod race and the Darth Maul fight scene. And the announcer almost kills the pod race scene.

It's also a bit TOO desperate at the end. The war vs. the Gungans (sp?) is being won by the robots. The fight for the robot control ship is against overwhelming odds. Darth Maul has just killed Gui Gonn. The Princess is captured by the Trade Federation. Now I can believe one good comeback against these dire straits situations, but all 4? Absurd.

Overall, in many places, TPM commits the ultimate Star Wars sin - it's not very entertaining.

Clones is better. Yes, we get to deal with more wooden acting and horrid dialog, but there are some improvements. There's a bit more intrigue. There's Janga Fett, the asteriod battle (great to show off surround sound) and the clones themselves. There's the Jedi Battle and the epic clone/robot fight. And we get to see Yoda in battle as well. It's not great cinema, but it is generally entertaining from the "popcorn" perspective. It does have it's slow parts, but it could be worse.

[Wolfpack]

I also watched TPM yesterday and thought that it was, well...something. It wasn't the travesty that fanboys like to make it out to be, but it just lacks something that sets the original series apart. I could stand the acting, really. I'm not one to sit there and analyze someone's performance, usually and Star Wars is not supposed to win the actors Oscar nominations. It's supposed to entertain.

My nails-on-blackboard feelings toward the movie result from just how much Lucas ripped off his own movie, in this case Ep IV, to produce much of what was seen in Ep I, particularly the climactic space battle which had nearly precise parallels to the attack on the Death Star (heck, the pilots all looked like ones from Ep IV) and the award ceremony at the end. And, yeah, all the tie-backs got to be annoying. There are too many coincidences, if you will. It's as if Lucas decided it couldn't be Star Wars without R2 or 3PO, instead of letting them tie into the series at some later point when it would have made more natural sense.

[Suicane75]

I also watched TPM yesterday and thought that it was, well...something. It wasn't the travesty that fanboys like to make it out to be, but it just lacks something that sets the original series apart. I could stand the acting, really. I'm not one to sit there and analyze someone's performance, usually and Star Wars is not supposed to win the actors Oscar nominations. It's supposed to entertain.

My nails-on-blackboard feelings toward the movie result from just how much Lucas ripped off his own movie, in this case Ep IV, to produce much of what was seen in Ep I, particularly the climactic space battle which had nearly precise parallels to the attack on the Death Star (heck, the pilots all looked like ones from Ep IV) and the award ceremony at the end. And, yeah, all the tie-backs got to be annoying. There are too many coincidences, if you will. It's as if Lucas decided it couldn't be Star Wars without R2 or 3PO, instead of letting them tie into the series at some later point when it would have made more natural sense. Agreed. As annoyed as I was by Jar Jar and the wooden acting, it was the end of EP1 that really pissed me off, it was like I was they took the script, replaced the characters and reshot the last 40 minutes.

[Blackadar]

Agreed. As annoyed as I was by Jar Jar and the wooden acting, it was the end of EP4 that really pissed me off, it was like I was they took the script, replaced the characters and reshot the last 40 minutes.

EP4 is A New Hope - the original Star Wars.

[Suicane75]

EP4 is A New Hope - the original Star Wars.
Fixed it for me. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TredWel]

It's as if Lucas decided it couldn't be Star Wars without R2 or 3PO, instead of letting them tie into the series at some later point when it would have made more natural sense. I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere that Lucas decided that 3PO and R2 should be the "narrators" of all the movies, that the audience should see the action through their eyes.

Anyway, I never thought that PM or AotC were great nor terrible movies. Slightly entertaining, but suffering from having to fill the giant history imagined for these characters in the past 25 years. But I freely admit that I don't know anything about good movies, since I've probably seen more episodes of Mystery Science Theater 3000 than actual real movies in my life.

The trailers for RotS look interesting, and may actually pull me into the theater to see it after the buzz dies down. That's saying something, since I seriously cannot remember the last time I saw a movie in an actual theater.

[Warhammer]

But I freely admit that I don't know anything about good movies, since I've probably seen more episodes of Mystery Science Theater 3000 than actual real movies in my life.

Man, I wish I could still catch MST3K! "Manos THE hand of fate." "MANOS the hands of fate."

[Raiders Army]

Agreed. As annoyed as I was by Jar Jar and the wooden acting, it was the end of EP1 that really pissed me off, it was like I was they took the script, replaced the characters and reshot the last 40 minutes.
Did you not see parallels with EP2 and 5? Hmmm...Anakin's hand gets cut off. Whoa...Luke's hand gets cut off. A little romance in EP2, a little romance in EP5.

Ewoks in EP6, Wookies in EP3...hmmmmm

[rkmsuf]

one thing i think you guys are missing out on is Lucas' intentions:

we might just be reading into too much here. might just be that these movies really were for the kids and the kids in all of us. not meant to be scientifical dissertations on redemtion and destiny. the movies - all of them - have the same kind of quality (the newer movies probably have a bigger advantage in the special FX dept.). the purist in us looks at the trilogy with rose colored glasses. case in point, ESB - the generally accepted "gem" of the series - has some awful special effects. when Luke is in the cave being hung upside down by that snowbeast and winds up killing it...that thing couldn't have looked any more fake. the aliens in the Cantina in Ep. 4 are B-movie quality at best.

so i think people are setting the bar too high for these movies. the acting and dialogue is not of a high quality, but what exactly are you requiring out of movies with a robot with a British accent, the main character talks to a little green puppet and a 7 foot hairy monkey flies a spaceship. relax, watch the movies, eat some popcorn, and move on.


I agree with this sentiment and would submit the reason many people think the old school ones are better is because you were 12 at the time you saw them and fond memories indeed they are.

WTF to you think a Wookie was in the first trillogy? Same attempt as a Jar Jar. All the horrible dialogue like in the trash crusher ect was somehow art then?

I think people's expectations somehow go up for some reason when in fact there is little reason they should. All the movies have been of a similar ilk...it's just that today you get zero bonus points for special effects unlike the original which were more ground breaking.

I saw TPM yesterday again and enjoyed it.

Maybe everyone that's in the it sucks now camp will be happy now that the 5th episode is dark. I think it's a shame it's PG-13.

[Blackadar]

I agree with this sentiment and would submit the reason many people think the old school ones are better is because you were 12 at the time you saw them and fond memories indeed they are.

WTF to you think a Wookie was in the first trillogy? Same attempt as a Jar Jar. All the horrible dialogue like in the trash crusher ect was somehow art then?

I think people's expectations somehow go up for some reason when in fact there is little reason they should. All the movies have been of a similar ilk...it's just that today you get zero bonus points for special effects unlike the original which were more ground breaking.

I saw TPM yesterday again and enjoyed it.

Maybe everyone that's in the it sucks now camp will be happy now that the 5th episode is dark. I think it's a shame it's PG-13.

The difference is execution. The dialog has been horrid in all the movies. But the cast in earlier movies pulled it off much better than in the later ones. The characters, body language, expressions were far more animated with the earlier series. I think that overall, they probably had better fitting actors for the roles and had to give them more to do because the special effects didn't exist.

Heck, I think "I don't care what you smell" line has been the most comedic line in any Star Wars movie.

Yes, you could equate Chewie and Jar Jar, but Chewie was much better executed - or at least not nearly as annoying. Chewie didn't ruin entire scenes. Chewie wasn't a friggin' fool on a battlefield. Chewie didn't sound like a retarded Jamacian.

My 5-year old son likes the older ones better - even though they're less visual. That says something.

As for the PG-13 rating...I'll have to wait and see. But I'm not sure Lucas had really any choice. We know Annie becomes Darth Vader and is burned horribly. We know that most of the Jedi die. We know that Padme dies. We know the Republic gets destroyed. That's a lot of darkness...trying to make it a PG film in this day and age is probably too difficult. I think you'd probably have to neuter the film to do it.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, there is really no way NOT to make RotS a PG-13 movie. At some point you have to see why the Dark Side is so bad. Blowing up a planet is one thing, but from what I've read of the stuff Anakin does in this movie, you can see the evil of the Sith. I'm glad George decided that this movie wasn't for the kids.

[rkmsuf]

Yeah, there is really no way NOT to make RotS a PG-13 movie. At some point you have to see why the Dark Side is so bad. Blowing up a planet is one thing, but from what I've read of the stuff Anakin does in this movie, you can see the evil of the Sith. I'm glad George decided that this movie wasn't for the kids.


And there is the center of the feeling that episode 1 and 2 suck. It's the same formula but you are not 12 anymore.

Nobody hankered for this before.

[Desnudo]

Well, how old were you when you first watched the originals? It's easier to think what you are watching on the screen is really happening when you are young and your imaginations are running wild. You know better when you are an adult though.

Or when the acting is better. We can talk contextual arguments all day, but my belief is that the acting, largely due to Harrison Ford and Alec Guiness, in the first trilogy was far superior to anything done in the new one.

I suppose we're arguing in circles though. If you believe that the acting in the recent movies is good, then more power to you. :)

[rkmsuf]

Or when the acting is better. We can talk contextual arguments all day, but my belief is that the acting, largely due to Harrison Ford and Alec Guiness, in the first trilogy was far superior to anything done in the new one.

I suppose we're arguing in circles though. If you believe that the acting in the recent movies is good, then more power to you. :)


None of it is what you would consider good. That isn't the point of the movies so the critique it in those terms is meaningless. It is done that way intentionally.

[ISiddiqui]

And there is the center of the feeling that episode 1 and 2 suck. It's the same formula but you are not 12 anymore.

Nobody hankered for this before.
Um.. I don't think Ep 1 and 2 sucked :p.

And no one hankered for this because Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side yet ;). He was being seduced, he wasn't down the horrible path. And I think the Dark Side needs to be shown for what it is. It'll prevent idiots from writing articles asking why the Empire was so bad in the original trilogy.

[rkmsuf]

Um.. I don't think Ep 1 and 2 sucked :p.

And no one hankered for this because Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side yet ;). He was being seduced, he wasn't down the horrible path. And I think the Dark Side needs to be shown for what it is. It'll prevent idiots from writing articles asking why the Empire was so bad in the original trilogy.

I mean in 6,7 8 nobody really desired this expose or super dark explanation of Darth Vadar.

But to shut the Empire critics up I am behind the PG-13 as long as we get some Wookie sex.

[Desnudo]

And there is the center of the feeling that episode 1 and 2 suck. It's the same formula but you are not 12 anymore.

Nobody hankered for this before.

I love the pop psychology that the reason we don't like these movies is because we're too old to appreciate them, when the fact of the matter is that the last two were simply very poorly executed movies. If they didn't have Star Wars on the title, they would have been in and out of theaters in a month.

I watch plenty of kids stuff and enjoy it. So maturity isn't a question here, trust me. :p

BTW, I notice Yoda-talk slipping into your posts here fairly often. Do you find that happens in your everyday conversations too?

[rkmsuf]

I love the pop psychology that the reason we don't like these movies is because we're too old to appreciate them, when the fact of the matter is that the last two were simply very poorly executed movies. If they didn't have Star Wars on the title, they would have been in and out of theaters in a month.

I watch plenty of kids stuff and enjoy it. So maturity isn't a question here, trust me. :p

BTW, I notice Yoda-talk slipping into your posts here fairly often. Do you find that happens in your everyday conversations too?

daily talk it does.

I swear people forgot how substandard the originals were from an acting/thespian point of view.

It was all effects and something nobody had ever seen. A truly unique universe and experience. Take away the uniqueness and you have nothing but to focus on the unproven actors and nobodies that litter these films. For some reason today people want performances on par with On Golden Pond or something.

Now if you want to criticize Lucas for attempting to continue to appeal to the kids rather than focussing on the core who were kids back in the original run I can see that but for who 1 and 2 were geared they were done well.

[Desnudo]

daily talk it does.

I swear people forgot how substandard the originals were from an acting/thespian point of view.

It was all effects and something nobody had ever seen. A truly unique universe and experience. Take away the uniqueness and you have nothing but to focus on the unproven actors and nobodies that litter these films. For some reason today people want performances on par with On Golden Pond or something.

Now if you want to criticize Lucas for attempting to continue to appeal to the kids rather than focussing on the core who were kids back in the original run I can see that but for who 1 and 2 were geared they were done well.

Clearly, talking about, you do not know what.

[rkmsuf]

Clearly, talking about, you do not know what.

310 million gross leads to the rich side young padawan for episode 2.

[kcchief19]

So far, the general impression from the hard-core fan base that has seen the premieres underscore what has been whispered since the cast began production on ROTS -- this movie will make TPM and AOTC better movies.

The first two prequels really have two separate aspects: execution and plot/exposition. No doubt that the execution was weak in TPM and AOTC. But the first two movies really serve to merely setup ROTS. This is lot of foreshadowing and other literary elements in TPM and AOTC, some of them obvious and some not so much.

With the premiere in Cannes, the French are jumping on the idea that ROTS is a parable for today's war on terrorism and Bush's presidency, but the entire Star Wars saga is really a partical parable born of Watergate and Vietnam. As such, Lucas has created a "Republic" in the prequels that is very much unlike the world of the OTC. The first two movies take place during "a more civilized age ... before the dark times, before the Empire."

TPM and AOTC take place during a simple time. The Clone Wars are the loss of innoncence, the point of no return for everyone to go back to things the way they were. Once events are placed in motion, there was no turning back. Palpatine may have been puppet master, but it's the characters and their individual choices that put the galaxy on the path toward the Empire. For instance, after watching ROTS and rewatching TPM, my guess is that you will realize that Padme that one or two poor decisions by Padme enabled Palpatine to achieve his evil goals.

No doubt the execution from a filmmaking standpoint is poor. But I think from a plot standpoint, TPM and AOTC will look better once we see where they are going.

[Desnudo]

Understand, I do not

[rkmsuf]

uh, yeah.

I just want extra butter on my popcorn please.

[Desnudo]

Now you've really lost me.

[Blackadar]

uh, yeah.

I just want extra butter on my popcorn please.

And throw some of that nacho cheese in a cup so I can dip my popcorn into it.

"That'll be $25, sir. We count the nacho cups, sir. You'll have to pay for it and sign this form that you absolve us of any liability in the event of a grease-induced heart attack."

[rkmsuf]

The uh, yeah was a reaction to this

With the premiere in Cannes, the French are jumping on the idea that ROTS is a parable for today's war on terrorism and Bush's presidency, but the entire Star Wars saga is really a partical parable born of Watergate and Vietnam. As such, Lucas has created a "Republic" in the prequels that is very much unlike the world of the OTC. The first two movies take place during "a more civilized age ... before the dark times, before the Empire."

[Desnudo]

And throw some of that nacho cheese in a cup so I can dip my popcorn into it.

"That'll be $25, sir. We count the nacho cups, sir. You'll have to pay for it and sign this form that you absolve us of any liability in the event of a grease-induced heart attack."

I've never understood how people eat nachos in a darkened theater. I'd come out with nachos stuck all over my shirt.

[Blackadar]

I've never understood how people eat nachos in a darkened theater. I'd come out with nachos stuck all over my shirt.

It's an art form. A gift. A God-given talent.

But it's not something to eat while on a date. Stick to the Junior Mints on those. Sharable and fresh breath - what more could you ask for!

[gstelmack]

With the premiere in Cannes, the French are jumping on the idea that ROTS is a parable for today's war on terrorism and Bush's presidency, but the entire Star Wars saga is really a partical parable born of Watergate and Vietnam. As such, Lucas has created a "Republic" in the prequels that is very much unlike the world of the OTC. The first two movies take place during "a more civilized age ... before the dark times, before the Empire."
Lucas freakin' said as much, according to the CNN article. He is clearly trying to be a Michael Moore and point out how evil the Republicans...

Oh, wait, sorry, old habit. But yes, he has said that Star Wars was intended to show how easy it would be for a Democracy to turn into a Dictatorship based on what he saw during Vietnam, and feels that the current war in Iraq is running down the exact same road.

[timmynausea]

I watched the Original Trilogy when I was really young, basically before I had started school or shortly after, and never watched it again until a couple months ago. I also had never watched the prequels until a couple months ago. I watched all 5 of them within a week or so after I signed up for the Blockbuster Online deal and started getting DVDs left and right.
The Original Trilogy truly is vastly superior. I'm 23 years old and they totally captured my imagination. (Especially the original.) I can only imagine how much kids love them, since I only vaguely remember watching them when I was a kid. Darth Vader is probably the best movie villain ever.
The prequels are not terrible. The Phantom Menace could almost be a decent movie if the scenes with the kid weren't so ham-fisted and Jar-Jar was removed or at least brutally beaten. I remember we had watched about half of it, and while there were poor moments, I was mostly thinking about how it wasn't so bad. (As I had heard, like everyone else, how terrible it was.) The second half was quite a bit worse. (The binks battle scenes, the pod race announcers and the sheer length of the scene, and the kid accidentally wiping out the bad guys and saying "Whoops!" and "Cool!" and etc.)
Attack of the Clones was much better. It had some dull moments and the acting was a bit uneven, but I'd say in every regard it was better than the Phantom Menace. It was still nowhere near the original trilogy. I'm going to rewatch them before I go see Sith this weekend, so maybe I'll have more to add.
One thing I can't believe I don't see mentioned constantly is how much of a Dune rip-off Star Wars is. It is pretty unbelievable.

[Franklinnoble]

Lucas freakin' said as much, according to the CNN article. He is clearly trying to be a Michael Moore and point out how evil the Republicans...

Oh, wait, sorry, old habit. But yes, he has said that Star Wars was intended to show how easy it would be for a Democracy to turn into a Dictatorship based on what he saw during Vietnam, and feels that the current war in Iraq is running down the exact same road.
Yeah, because we've been a dictatorship since Vietnam. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

The only historical parallel I can think of is Hitler's rise to power. I'm sure there are others, but that jumps to mind right away.

[rkmsuf]

Lucas is smart to play this up now.

He's outplaying all of you.

[Vince]

...For instance, after watching ROTS and rewatching TPM, my guess is that you will realize that Padme that one or two poor decisions by Padme enabled Palpatine to achieve his evil goals...
It seems to me that the major point at which the Republic really starts to physically disintegrate is when Palpatine is granted emergency powers -- by Jar-Jar Binks. To me it seems that the entire point in the whole series for his character is to be the unwitting agent of Palpatine's full ascencion.

In my opinion, Palpatine has been the puppet master the whole way, and everyone is dancing to his tune from beginning to end.

1) Attempts are made on Padme's life by the Trade Federation, but with Palpatine's suggestion, or at his behest.

2) Palpatine "suggests" that Padme be sent away for her safety -- thereby removing her from a position at which she could interrupt his bid for power.

3) Jedi agree -- Padme is one of their strongest allies in the Senate, and they can't afford to lose her. They don't really realize that they are doing just that, however.

4) Jar-Jar Binks, unwitting asshat that he is, is convinced by Palpatine and such that it is necessary for the survival of the Republic to vote the chancellor emergency powers ("If only Senator Amidala were here...").

5) Meanwhile, the Jedi still aren't sure that it is the incorrect course of action, since the droid army of the Trade Federation and Dooku presents a rather difficult problem to face.

I don't really think that Padme would have gone with the emergency power decision if she had been there instead of Jar-Jar. I also think it would have been a much cooler plot twist if Dooku was in fact NOT on the Dark Side, and the Jedi were unwittingly destroying their best ally in the fight between the two sides. Ah, well.

[IMetTrentGreen]

this happened to me too. the more i saw it, the more it grew on me. maybe its just because of obi-wan and carth maul's fight at the end

[Blackadar]

I also think it would have been a much cooler plot twist if Dooku was in fact NOT on the Dark Side, and the Jedi were unwittingly destroying their best ally in the fight between the two sides. Ah, well.

Agreed. I really thought Dooku was NOT a sith until the Jedi battle. It would have made for a much better plot twist if he were Master Sifo-Dyas and he had forseen this and couldn't convince anyone of it.

[Anthony]

Or when the acting is better. We can talk contextual arguments all day, but my belief is that the acting, largely due to Harrison Ford and Alec Guiness, in the first trilogy was far superior to anything done in the new one.

I suppose we're arguing in circles though. If you believe that the acting in the recent movies is good, then more power to you. :)

don't give me this Alec Guiness nonsense. he didn't really do anything special in the trilogy. the best actor in the trilogy was Harrison Ford, which isn't saying much because he's the only one who went on to have a real career in film after that. Han Solo is the only exciting character to watch in the trilogy, in my book, after him everyone gave neutral performances (or performances that didn't take away from the films).

story-wise, plot-wise, the progression from TPM and AoTC is smart, and i'm sure it'll be even better for Ep 3. Everything Lucas wanted to accomplish has happened - show the progression of a republic to an Empire, show the rise and fall of the strongest Jedi ever, and even show to some degree the affect that two of the most unlikely heros (C3PO and R2D2) have had on the outcome of events prior to the original trilogy. that's all there. what you don't like is the parts geared towards children - the pod race, the Gungans, the poor attempt at comic relief with C3P0 and R2D2 almost dying in the droid factory, Yoda and the Jedi Youth giving advice to Obi Wan.

this is why i say, all the movies are of the same quality. i'm not saying all the movies are of a high quality, mind you - i'm saying there isn't anything found in the trilogy that you don't get in the prequels. the acting is not of a high calibre in the trilogy, same with the prequels. there are good plotlines in the trilogy, same goes for the prequels - we have a clear idea what the Star Wars universe was like before Ep 4. there are characters geared to appeal towards kids in the original trilogy, the same holds true for the prequels. many here put on their rose colored glasses and refer to the whoop-de-doo acting in the trilogy as "campy", but the same type of acting is found in the prequels.

i'd go so far as to say that in some aspects the prequels have a huge leg up on the trilogy due to the superior FX. i'm not much of a CGI fan, and Lucas leans on it too much for my liking, but the prequels are much "prettier" to look at than the trilogy.

[Vince]

Agreed. I really thought Dooku was NOT a sith until the Jedi battle. It would have made for a much better plot twist if he were Master Sifo-Dyas and he had forseen this and couldn't convince anyone of it.
Exactly. I have this habit of trying to figure things out before they happen. In the scene where we first really meet Dooku -- when he's questioning the captured Obi-Wan Kenobi -- I had one of those "Memento -- Usual Suspects" kind of moments where I was thinking No WAY!!! This could be absolutely amazing! Then, of course, 15 or 20 minutes later, the idea fizzles out.

[sterlingice]

Man, I wish I could still catch MST3K! "Manos THE hand of fate." "MANOS the hands of fate."
It's a real shame that's not on tv any more :(

Apparently they had to pay royalties on the movie each time an episode was shown rather than a "pay once and be done" and that's why it got canned.

SI

[TredWel]

It's a real shame that's not on tv any more :(

Apparently they had to pay royalties on the movie each time an episode was shown rather than a "pay once and be done" and that's why it got canned.

SI
Pssst ... if you don't know already.

hxxp://mst3k.dapcentral.org/

[sterlingice]

Digital Archive Project rules. I'd have them if not for pesky bandwidth caps by my ISP :(

SI

[Warhammer]

One thing I can't believe I don't see mentioned constantly is how much of a Dune rip-off Star Wars is. It is pretty unbelievable.

OK, I'm not a Dune fan, but wasn't Star Wars out before Dune?

[Coder]

The first Dune-book was written in the early sixties.. maybe that's what timmy is referring to. I don't see that many references between the two series, but Lucas has always said how he was inspired by several famous stories when writing Star Wars.. one could also argue that Lucas was heavily influenced by the LOTR books.

[timmynausea]

OK, I'm not a Dune fan, but wasn't Star Wars out before Dune?
The Dune movie didn't come out until 1984, but the first 3 Dune books were out before Star Wars. The first book was published in 1965. The basic premise of a feudal myth type story set in space definitely started here. Lucas has noted Dune as an influence, but to me it seems like a lot more than that. I don't want to go through a whole list of similarities, but as a couple examples: I guess in the original draft of Star Wars Leia was protecting the location of a shipment of spice instead of the plans to the death star. (The spice being the most valuable resource on Dune and mentioned constantly in the books.) The heroes of both stories find out they are related to the villains. (Vader being Luke's father and the Baron being Paul's grandfather.) A mother dies giving birth to twins in both stories. Conceptually there are similarities. There are Benet Gesserits and Mentats instead of Jedi. They can use "the voice" to control people instead of mind tricks. The concept of the hero being the chosen one foretold of is a pretty big one as well. The people on Dune have crysknifes instead of light sabers and the big dramatic fight scenes in both series are often one on one duels. There are tons more.

[Desnudo]

don't give me this Alec Guiness nonsense. he didn't really do anything special in the trilogy.

All right, I'm done with this argument. If people want to wank off their Jar Jar Binks blow up dolls, then by all means, go ahead.

[Blackadar]

All right, I'm done with this argument. If people want to wank off their Jar Jar Binks blow up dolls, then by all means, go ahead.

QotM worthy.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

This is what I have been saying for years. If you go into the 2nd or 3rd time watching it with an open mind it is actually a pretty good moving. ATOC was the only movie that got worse the more I watched it.

I think the problem tith AOTC was the pacing. There was just too much movie and it moved too slowly.

I say this because the 1st time I saw it was on an IMAX screen and I really enjoyed it. I then saw it on cable and thought it was too long and boring. What was the difference? 23 minutes of filler/crap/useless falling-in-love crap was cut.

Then again, IMAX could make Cheech & Chong's Corsican Brothers almost impressive...

[ISiddiqui]

Alec Guiness was decent in 'Star Wars', but I agree that he was nothing special. He did give it some respectability in terms of the actors involved. Frankly, I think Ewen McGregor has done a better job in his role as Obi-Won. But I do like McGregor in nearly every role he's been in.

[JeffR]

Alec Guiness was decent in 'Star Wars', but I agree that he was nothing special. He did give it some respectability in terms of the actors involved. Frankly, I think Ewen McGregor has done a better job in his role as Obi-Won. But I do like McGregor in nearly every role he's been in.

I actually felt a little bad for McGregor in the first one. He looked like he was taking the role seriously and had gone to some trouble to get the character sounding like a young Alec Guinness, and then wound up having to act with a bored Liam Neeson and a bunch of cardboard cutouts.

[TazFTW]

I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere that Lucas decided that 3PO and R2 should be the "narrators" of all the movies, that the audience should see the action through their eyes.
Yep, although I think in A New Hope they were there as homage to Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress (actually a good bit of ANH is from Hidden Fortress).

I also think Lucas likes showing non-living things as they journey through time. Like from what I've heard that's the reason the Ebon Hawk is the ship used in both KOTORs. Sorta like the film, Twenty Bucks, which follows a $20 bill as it goes from owner to owner.

[kcchief19]

It seems to me that the major point at which the Republic really starts to physically disintegrate is when Palpatine is granted emergency powers -- by Jar-Jar Binks. To me it seems that the entire point in the whole series for his character is to be the unwitting agent of Palpatine's full ascencion....

...I don't really think that Padme would have gone with the emergency power decision if she had been there instead of Jar-Jar. I also think it would have been a much cooler plot twist if Dooku was in fact NOT on the Dark Side, and the Jedi were unwittingly destroying their best ally in the fight between the two sides. Ah, well. This actually supports why ROTS will likely make TPM make more sense and be a better movie. Not to give away any spoilers from what I know so far, but remember that it was Padme that made the motion for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum in TPM. If she had not done that, Palpatine would never have become chancellor in the first place. That was a critical moment in Palpatine's plan. Padme was an unwitting agent in his plan long before Jar Jar's moment of fame.

I know I'm a nerd, but I will say that the expanded universe novels do help to give more color and background to Dooku and Sifo Dyas and the whole clone issue. It shows much more of the complexity of Palpatine's plot and the unwitting role so many people play in it.

[dawgfan]

I agree with this sentiment and would submit the reason many people think the old school ones are better is because you were 12 at the time you saw them and fond memories indeed they are.

This is an argument that sounds nice on the surface, but doesn't end up holding much water. I watched Speed Racer when I was a kid and thought it was the shit. I saw a couple episodes a few years back for the first time in 25 years or so, and though they were shit.

The first two movies, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were very well executed. Yes, they were aimed at the kid in everyone, but the acting and the storylines were clearly superior to any of the 3 since, especially the 2 prequels.

WTF to you think a Wookie was in the first trillogy? Same attempt as a Jar Jar.

Not even close. Wookies don't have annoying, borderline racist Jamaican patois; wookies are more kick ass than comic relief.

All the horrible dialogue like in the trash crusher ect was somehow art then?

How exactly is the trash compacter scene horrible dialog? If you really thought this was horrible dialog, we have an aesthetic disconnect so large that no amount of arguing will solve things.

I think people's expectations somehow go up for some reason when in fact there is little reason they should. All the movies have been of a similar ilk...it's just that today you get zero bonus points for special effects unlike the original which were more ground breaking.

I agree with the special effects notion - the original trilogy was so far ahead of anything else out there, and there's no way with how special effects have evolved in Hollywood that a gap like that can be achieved any more.

However, I disagree with the expectation part. I didn't have higher expectations for the prequels - I just wanted them to be about as good as the first 3. We should've had some warning after Return of the Jedi that Lucas wasn't infallible, but it's a testament to how powerful Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were that we had some hope that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones could come near in quality and execution. They didn't.

I saw TPM yesterday again and enjoyed it.

Goody for you. I watched the original trilogy recently when I bought the DVD set, and the first 2 movies held up very well while my disappointment with Return of the Jedi deepened. I have my doubts that repeated viewings of the first 2 prequels will improve them in my mind, but perhaps the context of Revenge of the Sith will improve them in retrospect. I doubt it though - the things that bothered me the most are unlikely to be justified by RotS - the horrible decision to give a scientific explanation of the Force; the awful pod race announcers; the annoying stereotype accents for the aliens (how come, unlike in the original trilogy, virtually all of the aliens speak english rather having the movie use subtitles?); the wooden acting; the pathetic execution of the love story in AotC; etc.

Maybe everyone that's in the it sucks now camp will be happy now that the 5th episode is dark. I think it's a shame it's PG-13.

If it hadn't turned out to be PG-13, I would've known immediately Lucas had fucked this third one up. Given the arc of the storyline, it
has to be dark; there's simply no way to pretty it up for the kiddies and make it work. To do so would've been the ultimate betrayal to the storyline by Lucas in favor of appealing to the kid demographic. As much damage as Lucas has done to the franchise with these first 2 prequels, he still has the chance with this last one of gaining some redemption by getting it right.

[Vince]

...Not to give away any spoilers from what I know so far, but remember that it was Padme that made the motion for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum in TPM. If she had not done that, Palpatine would never have become chancellor in the first place. That was a critical moment in Palpatine's plan. Padme was an unwitting agent in his plan long before Jar Jar's moment of fame...Just to put it out there...I want no spoilers whatsoever, so please do continue to refrain :)

However, this point is well taken. My contention with it, however, is that Padme was pushed to this point by the Trade Federation's blockade and subsequent attack of her people. Though she was Palpatine's unwitting agent...she hardly had a choice. Palpatine painted her into the corner by 'buying' the trade federation. Jar Jar had absolutely no concrete reason to make the decision he did.

I don't know, I guess I'm defending Padme's character...I see what you're saying, and I'm sure RotS will do a lot more to clarify everything...but I don't see how it can turn into 'poor decisions' by Padme. In the first two, she has been portrayed as someone who will do anything it takes to get everything right, and that she has made decisions (such as the one to vote no confidence in Chancellor Velorum) only when forced. I like the scope of the future Emperor's plot...but I'm kind of bummed that what is in my opinion one of the most critical elements of said plot comes down to a weak-minded person put into a tremendous position of power for no apparent reason being swayed by a simple suggestion (or a Force-backed suggestion -- tomato, tomahto). I mean seriously -- TPM basically spent a good amount of time showing us that Jar Jar Binks is as klutzy and naive/immature as anyone could possibly be. By lucking into bringing the Jedi to the Gungin, then again luckily managing to kill a few Droids in the war, he is awarded similarly. How did he go from bumbling idiot to Naboo's representative to the Senate?

Kudos to the scope of the plot for being able to tuck Padme away somewhere...but randomly having Jar Jar Binks as Naboo's representative to the Senate is kind of...well, for lack of a better word, retarded.

As for the novels...I've been meaning to get to them, but never find the time. Hopefully soon.

[TazFTW]

Just wanted to check something. Which one is Keira Knightley?

http://img261.echo.cx/img261/2526/tpm6wc.jpg

My guess is the one standing next to Natalie Portman.

[cthomer5000]

It's tough to tell with the Keira Knightly business... there is clearly a lot of digital doubling going on in that movie.

[JeeberD]

Watched it last night...I had forgotten how annoying Jar Jar was. Other than him, though, the movie was pretty enjoyable.

[Draft Dodger]

This actually supports why ROTS will likely make TPM make more sense and be a better movie. Not to give away any spoilers from what I know so far, but remember that it was Padme that made the motion for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum in TPM. If she had not done that, Palpatine would never have become chancellor in the first place. That was a critical moment in Palpatine's plan. Padme was an unwitting agent in his plan long before Jar Jar's moment of fame.

I know I'm a nerd, but I will say that the expanded universe novels do help to give more color and background to Dooku and Sifo Dyas and the whole clone issue. It shows much more of the complexity of Palpatine's plot and the unwitting role so many people play in it.

one of the biggest things I liked about Ep III was that it really did make the convoluted glop of I&II to come together a lot better. I think I will enjoy those movies a bit more now, although they still have many, many issues.

[Draft Dodger]

Just wanted to check something. Which one is Keira Knightley?


My guess is the one standing next to Natalie Portman.

I didn't know she was in it...but I'd say the one on the left.

[3ric]

I'm pretty sure she's the center one, in black.

[TazFTW]

I'm pretty sure she's the center one, in black.


Asked on another message board and they said she is the Queen whenever Padme is a handmaiden, so you're correct.

Interesting.

[kcchief19]

Just wanted to check something. Which one is Keira Knightley?

http://img261.echo.cx/img261/2526/tpm6wc.jpg

My guess is the one standing next to Natalie Portman. Yes, Keira Knightley was Sabe, the queen's decoy. My question is which one is Sache -- aka Soffia Coppola?

[judicial clerk]

I've posted this before and i will probably post it again: Lucas totally screwed up what could have been one of the top five scenes in the entire series.

When Darth Maul faces off against ben kanobi and qui gon jin at the end of the movie, there is the scene where darth Maul strikes a fighting stance with his lightsaber in front of him and then activates the second blade for the first time in the movie. Now, that could have been one of those scenes that catches the viewers by suprise and puts them on the edge of their seat. People are so gaga over the lightsabers they would have shit their pants if that double bladed light saber was sprung on them like that. It would have transformed that scene into the best duel scene in any of the movies (which maybe it is anyway).

But noooooo, Lucas couldn't keep it under wraps and give his audience a little treat at the end of the movie. Instead, he puts that scene in the commercials and reveals the unique lightsaber and takes all drama and suprise form the scene in the movie. I really feel this was a huge mistake and his movies are worse off for it.