Peyton or Dante?

[WSUCougar]

You're starting a team from scratch in preparation for the 2005 NFL season. Which QB do you take? Tangibles and intangibles all apply.

For the sake of this poll, these are your only two options.

[Desnudo]

The box

[rkmsuf]

Dante.

I can't stand Manning. He has the leadership skills of a moldy turd and only slightly more than Dan Marino had.

[Desnudo]

How would you describe the leadership skills of moldy turd?

[jeff061]

And Dante is lacking leadership and skills. Not the best choice to put up against Manning.

[rkmsuf]

How would you describe the leadership skills of moldy turd?

Terrible. They have no interpersonal skills whatsoever.

[rkmsuf]

And Dante is lacking leadership and skills. Not the best choice to put up against Manning.


I think the order for leadership skills is

Dante
Moldy Turd
Manning
Marino

[Pyser]

The box

stupid! youre so stupid!


oh, id take peyton.

[QuikSand]

I don't see how this is even a contest.

[Desnudo]

I think the order for leadership skills is

Dante
Moldy Turd
Manning
Marino

That Moldy Turd's due for a big payday.

[WSUCougar]

I don't see how this is even a contest.
Really? I'd like to hear your reasoning why.

[jeff061]

Why would anyone in their right mind pick Dante, unless you are taking into account the cap hit.

[rkmsuf]

Why would anyone in their right mind pick Dante, unless you are taking into account the cap hit.

He might be better. Or at least on par.

I thinks it's at least debatable.

[Franklinnoble]

Tom Brady.

[rjolley]

I'd take Dante because he provides the ability to get tough yardage on the ground scrambling as well as through the air. I think they're close in the other QB skills, with Manning the better, but Dante's ability to run puts him over the top for me.

Very tough choice, though. Surround both of them with a group of talented wideouts and a running back defenses have to worry about, and they'll destroy you. Remember, Manning's great year last year was with a healthy James keeping defenses off balance. Culpepper had a great year without that protection.

[Joe]

i'd take daunte. he has more intangibles and imo is a better qb. plus, manning had better wideouts last year, and daunte still led the league in yardage, not to mention moss was out or hobbled for half of the season.

[finketr]

am i going to have a decent offensive line or is it going to be like the texans and the qb is going to take 80 sacks + innumerable hits?

[Passacaglia]

I'd say go with the guy whose name you bothered to spell correctly.

[gottimd]

How come Danny Wuerrfel isn't included as an option? Or Ryan leaf? Rick Mirer?

[Glengoyne]

He might be better. Or at least on par.


Yes there is plenty of evidence that Dante is better than Manninghttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif.





That's not my first rolleyes, but it's close.

[QuikSand]

I think that this might be a fairly even two-option poll if the choices were Peyton Manning and "anyone else."

[rkmsuf]

Yes there is plenty of evidence that Dante is better than Manninghttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif.





That's not my first rolleyes, but it's close.

What's "better" than? Football is a tricky game when you get into these types of arguements.

The fact you can't consider the fact that it's debatable means you are either unwilling or unable to look at it objectively.

[Coffee Warlord]

How come Danny Wuerrfel isn't included as an option? Or Ryan leaf? Rick Mirer?

You know how sick it is that two of those three you listed were former Bears QB's?

[QuikSand]

You know how sick it is that two of those three you listed were former Bears QB's?

Two and counting... there's still time.

[Coffee Warlord]

Two and counting... there's still time.

I wouldn't put it past em, quite honestly.

[Joe]

funny that Culpepper has a better career QB rating than Manning does. 93.2 compared to 92.3. Its close, but considering some of you think its a no contest for Manning...

[rkmsuf]

funny that Culpepper has a better career QB rating than Manning does. 93.2 compared to 92.3. Its close, but considering some of you think its a no contest for Manning...

The hype machine is a powerful force.

[Suicane75]

If I had to pick one of them for the big game I'd forefit.

[Joe]

The hype machine is a powerful force.

yes it is. looking at the stats further, Manning has thrown for a lot more yards (of course, Daunte came into the league a year later and sat his rookie year, so thats expected)-- 73 starts vs. 112 for Manning. but over their careers, Culpepper has a 64.4% completion rate, vs. 63.5% for Manning. and its no surprise Culpepper has much more rushing yards and tds, while Manning has more passing tds. td/int ratio is 216/120 or 1.8 for Manning, and 129/74 or 1.74 for Culpepper.

[KevinNU7]

If you take into account Cap I'd take Dante, if not then Peyton

[Raiders Army]

I'd pick Culpepper. IMHO, he has more leadership skills than Manning and is far more likeable (notwithstanding the "cut the meat, cut the meat" commercial).

[Kodos]

Manning, please. Thank you.

[Marmel]

I'd go with Manning because he is white.

[WSUCougar]

I find it remarkable that some of you Peytonists think this is not even worth discussing. I'd like to hear a detailed case made as to why (instead of the "you silly ignorant peasants" kind of commentary that we've seen thusfar).

Oh, and Passcaglia? I've got a "u" for you around here somewhere. Know what you can do with it? ;)

[rkmsuf]

I find it remarkable that some of you Peytonists think this is not even worth discussing. I'd like to here a detailed case made as to why (instead of the "you silly ignorant peasants" kind of commentary that we've seen thusfar).



Me too.

[KevinNU7]

I'm leaning now towards Peyton for the trade value. He's got to be atleast 2 number picks and futures

[sabotai]

How did Dante Culpepper earn this reputation for having leadership skills?

[rkmsuf]

How did Dante Culpepper earn this reputation for having leadership skills?

Not sure if he's great but it's almost by default giving it to him vs. Manning.

I really question that guy as a leader where as I am neutral on Culpepper.

[Joe]

its because of Daunte's "rolling" dance thing he does.

[QuikSand]

I find it remarkable that some of you Peytonists think this is not even worth discussing.

I won't give you a detailed case, but I'll frame it for you.

Based on pure ability at the position, I think Peyton Manning has demonstrated skills beyond those of any QB in the league now. While it remains difficult to compare across teams, with different surrounding casts, coaching, and team philosophies, I would be very comfortable saying that Peyton Manning represents the best skills at the QB position to start with. I think he is among the very most accurate passers, among the best defense readers, among the best managers of an offense, and among the most collected players at the position. Perhaps you can make a case that single players are better than him at specific skills, but I think he represents the overall package best of all.

I honestly think that if you asked this question of 100 credentialed football experts, and asked then to name one guy (without a list of options to choose from), that you'd get plenty - at least 30 or 40 out of 100 -- to respond Peyton Manning. I believe you'd get a handful answering Cupepper, Vick, Brady and a variety of others. But Manning would easily be the top response, and his place atop this list is as nearly a consensus as anyone can be at such a scrutinized position.

[Raiders Army]

its because of Daunte's "rolling" dance thing he does.
Ditto. Seriously though, he pumps up his team and has a reputation for wanting to be the best at everything, not just football. I can't remember the specifics, but I read somewhere that someone bet him that he couldn't walk on his hands a certain distance and he did it. Backs it up.

[Kodos]

Ditto. Seriously though, he pumps up his team and has a reputation for wanting to be the best at everything, not just football. I can't remember the specifics, but I read somewhere that someone bet him that he couldn't walk on his hands a certain distance and he did it. Backs it up.

That hand-walking is an invaluable tool on the playing field. :p

[QuikSand]

I'm leaning now towards Peyton for the trade value. He's got to be atleast 2 number picks and futures

This, to me, is essentially an acknowledgement that Manning is the guy who has the most perceived value.


By the way, I'm not exactly a Manning partisan... I don't root for the guy, and I don't really like him all that much. (And I sure as hell never have him on my fantasy teams) But I think he's the near-consensus pick for this question right now.

[Tigercat]

Really, the stats are about even. The inability to win regular season games but not the big games is about even. One gets his stats and his share of wins with more physical gifts, the other with more mental gifts. But they have still achieved at about the same level.

I don't question anyone picking either one, I would question anyone picking either over the other with that much confidence, however. Because based on what they've done thus far and the amount of different gifts each brings to the table, I think its a wash.

[mckerney]

It will be interesting to see what Daunte does if he can get a healthy offense next season. Last year the Vikings lost two key starters in Kleinsasser and Rosenthal in the first game, along with Birk and Moss missing several games and having inconsistency at the runningback position. It's impressive Culpepper had the year he did with Jermaine Wiggins as his top target.

[WSUCougar]

I don't question anyone picking either one, I would question anyone picking either over the other with that much confidence, however. Because based on what they've done thus far and the amount of different gifts each brings to the table, I think its a wash.
Well said. That's kind of where I'm at and what prompted this poll thread.

[VPI97]

I'd like to hear a detailed case made as to why (instead of the "you silly ignorant peasants" kind of commentary that we've seen thusfar). Well, there goes my answer...

[Raiders Army]

I won't give you a detailed case, but I'll frame it for you.

Based on pure ability at the position, I think Peyton Manning has demonstrated skills beyond those of any QB in the league now. While it remains difficult to compare across teams, with different surrounding casts, coaching, and team philosophies, I would be very comfortable saying that Peyton Manning represents the best skills at the QB position to start with. I think he is among the very most accurate passers, among the best defense readers, among the best managers of an offense, and among the most collected players at the position. Perhaps you can make a case that single players are better than him at specific skills, but I think he represents the overall package best of all.

I honestly think that if you asked this question of 100 credentialed football experts, and asked then to name one guy (without a list of options to choose from), that you'd get plenty - at least 30 or 40 out of 100 -- to respond Peyton Manning. I believe you'd get a handful answering Cupepper, Vick, Brady and a variety of others. But Manning would easily be the top response, and his place atop this list is as nearly a consensus as anyone can be at such a scrutinized position.
Let's look at college stuff:

Daunte:

Years: 1995-98
Att: 1,391
Comp: 889
Comp %: 63.9%
Yards: 11,412 (plus 1,020 rushing)
TDs: 84 (plus 24 rushing)

Peyton:

Years: 1994-97
Att: 1,381
Comp: 863
Comp %: 62.5
Yards: 11,201
TDs: 89

Pretty similar to me. Of course, you have to take into account the conferences and opponents, but putting up over 1,000 rushing yards is a pretty big deal to me.

By the way, my intangibles include Peyton's choking. Did he win a National Championship? No. Did Tennessee win it the next year? Yes.

Did Daunte win a National Championship? No. Did UCF win it the next year? No.

Has Peyton choked in big games in the NFL? Many times...see a pattern here?

[Joe]

daunte isnt immune to choking either though... 41-0 ring a bell?

[QuikSand]

Let's look at college stuff

I can't fathom why. You want Jason White as your next pro QB for this year? How about Brandon Doman, or some guy from Hawai'i?

The question is who is your pick to be your NFL quarterback this year.

[DaddyTorgo]

Tom Brady :p

[Franklinnoble]

They're statistically identical, from a passing standpoint (in fact, there's a case for a slight edge to Culpepper) and Culpepper has far greater mobility.

I hate to say it, but anyone who things Manning is head-and-shoulders above Culpepper is probably stuck (perhaps subconsciously) with the white QB stereotype.

[larrymcg421]

Love to see the Marino bashing. I watched the guy for 17 years. He did not lack leadership skills. He's hardly a Jeff George type.

Yeah, he did not win a Superbowl, and that is very unfortunate. But it wasn't due to his lack of leadership. he was a great leader. Sure there were times when Marino threw too many picks and it cost them from going to the dance, but there were more times where the lack of a running game or a defense made it impossible for the team to hold any lead he created.

[Calis]

Scary thing to me when preaching about Daunte's superior rushing skills, is the number of fumbles he has. I always seem to see him coughing up, how many more fumbles does he have than Manning? 75? 100?

I never realized they were so close statistically though, that's interesting. You wouldn't guess from the hoopla surrounding them.

I don't have a particular preference for either.

[mhass]

I don't want Culpepper without Moss and I'm pretty sure I don't want Manning without Harrison though I'll wager Manning with Stokley is better this year than Culpepper with Williamson.

[Joe]

Scary thing to me when preaching about Daunte's superior rushing skills, is the number of fumbles he has. I always seem to see him coughing up, how many more fumbles does he have than Manning? 75? 100?

I never realized they were so close statistically though, that's interesting. You wouldn't guess from the hoopla surrounding them.

I don't have a particular preference for either.

Culpepper has 76 fumbles, compared to Manning's 38.

[WSUCougar]

Culpepper has 76 fumbles, compared to Manning's 38.
Can you compare the # of rushes as well? I realize the QB handles the ball every play, but the fact that Culpepper runs downfield frequently needs to be factored in.

[General Mike]

Tyler Palko

[Calis]

Can you compare the # of rushes as well? I realize the QB handles the ball every play, but the fact that Culpepper runs downfield frequently needs to be factored in.

430 to 212 it appears.

[larrymcg421]

Can you compare the # of rushes as well? I realize the QB handles the ball every play, but the fact that Culpepper runs downfield frequently needs to be factored in.
Yeah but it's already being factored in as a positive for Culpepper (rushing yards, mobility) so the negative effects of the increased rushes should be factored in as well.

[Calis]

Culpepper has 76 fumbles, compared to Manning's 38.

Thanks. Was curious to that, although I don't know how a person would readily correlate number of yards needed to make up for a fumble.

Anyway, 4x as many yards, 3x and 2x as many fumbles.

Ok, so the fumble theory probably doesn't make up that difference. I don't like it though.

[st.cronin]

I think it's close but I take Peyton. I'm more scared of him when he plays my team. Daunte has never really scared me.

[Desnudo]

If Peyton gets forced to improvise, his decision making falls apart. I'd take Culpepper.

[Raiders Army]

I can't fathom why. You want Jason White as your next pro QB for this year? How about Brandon Doman, or some guy from Hawai'i?

The question is who is your pick to be your NFL quarterback this year.
Why wouldn't College statistics matter? Your examples are good, but I could give an example for every example you give. Steve Young? Didn't he do well in college? Terry Bradshaw ring a bell? What about John Elway? Troy Aikman? Their college careers didn't indicate that they would do well in the NFL?

[Raiders Army]

If Peyton gets forced to improvise, his decision making falls apart. I'd take Culpepper.
Agree. Peyton is smart, but if you throw something new at him, he's thrown off-whack.

Re: Hello New England Patriots

[st.cronin]

Agree. Peyton is smart, but if you throw something new at him, he's thrown off-whack.

Re: Hello New England Patriots

He's had some very good games against the Patriots. I'm a Pats fan, and I don't ever underestimate him. We got lucky a few times.

[Raiders Army]

daunte isnt immune to choking either though... 41-0 ring a bell?
True, but look at Manning. Also, who gets more hype as being the "prototype" quarterback.

I remember last season when somebody (I think Boomer) said that Manning was like Marino. Marino was pissed, but it's true.

[WSUCougar]

Yeah but it's already being factored in as a positive for Culpepper (rushing yards, mobility) so the negative effects of the increased rushes should be factored in as well.
My point is that his number of downfield rushes is approximately double, which at least partially explains why his number of fumbles is double.

[Glengoyne]

In my opinion...

Peyton is more consistent than Culpepper. Culpepper throws up 5 TD games, but he also throws up some next to zeroes performances. I don't think Peyton is unable to get it done anywhere near that often.

As for the statistical differences...two years..90 TDs and 10,000 yards. They are close on rating, and Manning has a higher number of Interceptions that is somewhat mitigated by his higher number of attempts.

Culpepper is more mobile, so that gets him plenty of Kudos...He fumbles more, but the added mobility and rushing threat esp. at the goal line more than makes up for that.

Manning runs the show, calling game after game...that makes a big difference in my book.

How many games has Peyton missed in his career? He's like Brett Favre.

I believe Marvin Harrison is considered a great(even the best by some) receiver because he plays with Peyton Manning. I think Duante Culpepper's numbers look better(read inflated) because he spent a good part of his time throwing Alley Ooops to Randy Moss.

All in all I think that Manning is a great QB, and I think Culpepper is a very good one that hasnt't really differentiated himself as much from the pack as Manning has managed.

[wade moore]

I'm too tired and don't have time to make a full argument, i will try to tomorrow..

but.. the whole "Peyton can't win a big game" and "Peyton can't handle improvising" is just an utter, complete load of crap built up by the "hype machine"....

[Young Drachma]

=Glengoyne
I believe Marvin Harrison is considered a great(even the best by some) receiver because he plays with Peyton Manning. I think Duante Culpepper's numbers look better(read inflated) because he spent a good part of his time throwing Alley Ooops to Randy Moss.


Wait, so Culpepper is good because of Randy Moss. But Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and that Stokley guy that plays Tight End for them...those dudes catch everything and Wayne is 3rd receiver..and you're telling me that Manning hasn't been helped by that?

I think that, all things being equal...if you're say..the St. Louis Rams during their heyday..who would you rather have as your QB? If I'm choosing between the two? I'd go with Culpepper. Manning HAS to throw it. If he gets in a jam, he HAS to take a sack or throw it away..

Culpepper has the arm and all the regular "prototype" QB skills, but he's also got the ability to run. On a team like that, he would be able to run less (not so much the case in Minny...even if they do put a 1,000 yard rusher there..their guys are always getting injured. Damn turf) and still put up his numbers throwing to guys who can catch.

After all, it's already been pointed out that Culpepper had less to work with once Moss went down and he still had similar numbers to Manning - who obviously wasn't hurting in the "tools to work with" department.

I think Culpepper still has time to get even better, whereas Manning is getting to being stuck with the title of "not quite being able to get it done." And you can't even blame coaching, since neither team has a superior staff.

[ColtCrazy]

Will UCF ever win a championship? No

Comparing Dante's college stats to Peyton's is crazy. Peyton was playing the likes of Florida, Georgia, and LSU. Dante was playing the likes of Ball St., Ohio, and Bowling Green.

I like Peyton a lot, but he does have his flaws. He doesn't always look off safeties, he gets tunnel vision at times with receivers, but Dante does that too, even more so I would expect. Peyton hasn't had the chuck it and run under receiver that Culpepper has had with Moss. No offense to Harrison, a great receiver, but he's not that type of guy. I'll be interesting to see how Culpepper does once he doesn't have that all year long.

[Joe]

things could change quite a bit in Minnesota this year, with a new O Coordinator. We'll see if its for the better or worse.

[sovereignstar]

Comparing Dante's college stats to Peyton's is crazy. Peyton was playing the likes of Florida, Georgia, and LSU. Dante was playing the likes of Ball St., Ohio, and Bowling Green.

UCF didn't join the MAC until 2002, ace.

[rkmsuf]

I'm too tired and don't have time to make a full argument, i will try to tomorrow..

but.. the whole "Peyton can't win a big game" and "Peyton can't handle improvising" is just an utter, complete load of crap built up by the "hype machine"....


Ok, how about hasn't repeatedly in both college and pros. It's can't until he does.

I love how Indy gets like 12 dome games a year.

[Joe]

they're both on dome teams...

[wade moore]

Ok, how about hasn't repeatedly in both college and pros. It's can't until he does.

I love how Indy gets like 12 dome games a year.

Define a big game...

Every 'big game' he wins is disregarded in this argument, and everyone he loses is counted... do a comparison of him in 'big games' and other qb's in 'big games', you will not see him being worse than the average for sure, and probably better than average (if not to the affect that he has had many more big games to be in, which says something)...

Ok.. he did not win a championship in college... ok, how many of the "great NFL QBs" did? Dante didn't... Elway Didn't... Marino didn't (did he?)... Montana didn't (did he?)... need I go on? Somehow they're better for not getting in a situation to win it vs. getting in the situation and losing?

He hasn't won an NFL championship.. ok.. but he's been to the playoffs all but 1 year of his career.. he has won quite a few playoff games, many by a LARGE margin... again.. how many NFL QBs have one a championship in their first 5-6 years? Elway didn't... Marino Didn't... Dante Didn't... Unitas didn't.... Brady is about the only one... he is again hurt by being in the situation to be in the big game..

it's a silly, absurd argument...

[Joe]

montana won a championship his senior year. Marino had the championship and heisman hype, but disappointed on both counts.

[Passacaglia]

Oh, and Passcaglia? I've got a "u" for you around here somewhere. Know what you can do with it?

Let me guess -- is it under the "f"?

Anyway, aren't most of Daunte's fumbles from sacks? If that's the case, I don't think it matters that he rushes more times -- unless sacks are counted as rushes.

[st.cronin]

If you watch Daunte play teams always try to make him fumble. He's been known as a fumbler since his rookie season - he apparently just doesn't have very good hands. It's a definite weakness.

[rkmsuf]

Define a big game...

Every 'big game' he wins is disregarded in this argument, and everyone he loses is counted... do a comparison of him in 'big games' and other qb's in 'big games', you will not see him being worse than the average for sure, and probably better than average (if not to the affect that he has had many more big games to be in, which says something)...

Ok.. he did not win a championship in college... ok, how many of the "great NFL QBs" did? Dante didn't... Elway Didn't... Marino didn't (did he?)... Montana didn't (did he?)... need I go on? Somehow they're better for not getting in a situation to win it vs. getting in the situation and losing?

He hasn't won an NFL championship.. ok.. but he's been to the playoffs all but 1 year of his career.. he has won quite a few playoff games, many by a LARGE margin... again.. how many NFL QBs have one a championship in their first 5-6 years? Elway didn't... Marino Didn't... Dante Didn't... Unitas didn't.... Brady is about the only one... he is again hurt by being in the situation to be in the big game..

it's a silly, absurd argument...

Late and Close games as defined by Yahoo sports:

Manning
62 games
80.3 rating compared to 92.3 career
19 TD 16 INT
6.8 YPA

Culpepper
44 games
97.4 rating compared to 93.2 career
18 TD 9 INT
8.2 YPA


Manning has played 3 games in his career in January and has been a total flop. 5.9 YPA...very Marc Wilson-esque.

[WSUCougar]

Define a big game...
A big game is something like Morrowind, where you have a huge world to explore and you are not tied to linear questing.

Peyton has consistently shown that his RPG characters cannot cut the long-term mustard (sorry DeTox) in big games. In terms of leveling, consistent role-playing, skill selection, and higher-level quests, he simply doesn't perform as an elite player like he does when he's got the Level 1 Rogue filching a purse from a locked chest.

[Glengoyne]

Wait, so Culpepper is good because of Randy Moss. But Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and that Stokley guy that plays Tight End for them...those dudes catch everything and Wayne is 3rd receiver..and you're telling me that Manning hasn't been helped by that?
...
I think that Manning makes those guys better because he is hitting them in stride time and time again. I think more than a few of Culpepper's touchdowns/big plays
came on jump balls thrown to Randy Moss.

So yes accurate passing makes receivers better, and incredibly athletic and talented receivers make Quarterbacks better.

[Desnudo]

I'm too tired and don't have time to make a full argument, i will try to tomorrow..

but.. the whole "Peyton can't win a big game" and "Peyton can't handle improvising" is just an utter, complete load of crap built up by the "hype machine"....

Yes, because the hype machine spends all its time on Manning's weaknesses.

[WSUCougar]

Yes, because the hype machine spends all its time on Manning's weaknesses.
Sarcasm, right? (I hope)

[Desnudo]

Late and Close games as defined by Yahoo sports:

Manning
62 games
80.3 rating compared to 92.3 career
19 TD 16 INT
6.8 YPA

Culpepper
44 games
97.4 rating compared to 93.2 career
18 TD 9 INT
8.2 YPA


Manning has played 3 games in his career in January and has been a total flop. 5.9 YPA...very Marc Wilson-esque.

The sooner people take the blinders off and realize this obvious trait, the better. Some people do well under pressure and some don't, Manning doesn't happen to do well. It's not the end of the world, and doesn't mean he won't, or can't win a championship. It just means he's not Mr. Perfect.

[wade moore]

Late and Close games as defined by Yahoo sports:

Manning
62 games
80.3 rating compared to 92.3 career
19 TD 16 INT
6.8 YPA

Culpepper
44 games
97.4 rating compared to 93.2 career
18 TD 9 INT
8.2 YPA


Manning has played 3 games in his career in January and has been a total flop. 5.9 YPA...very Marc Wilson-esque.

Still want to know what a 'big game' is in this definition.. Peyton has only played in 112 games... so half of his games are big games? I have a hard time buying into a definition like this... Daunte has 74 games... so well over half of his games? Come on now guys...

[wade moore]

The sooner people take the blinders off and realize this obvious trait, the better. Some people do well under pressure and some don't, Manning doesn't happen to do well. It's not the end of the world, and doesn't mean he won't, or can't win a championship. It just means he's not Mr. Perfect.

It is not an obvious trait... The stats above, as I stated, prove nothing imo, because i do not buy that they are an actual measure of a big game..

[Raiders Army]

Blah, blah, blah. Let's revisit this thread in eight months and see what happens.

[wade moore]

Blah, blah, blah. Let's revisit this thread in eight months and see what happens.


Fine by me.. but when Daunte does not make the playoffs and Peyton loses in the AFC Championship game, don't say "See, told you Peyton chokes in big games"...

[rkmsuf]

Close/late is an indication of responding under duress. It's not perfect but I think the numbers present an interesting story.

You can't be under the impression he's done well in the biggest game of most seasons.

I stop short of calling him a choker...that's a bit much but I find no evidence he takes it to another level either.

You can claim situtation I suppose but if we are to believe the Manning supporters he's so good that it can't possibly be his responsibility or fault.

I mean he's great right and calls a lot of plays right and you mean to tell me he can't do some film study and figure out how to not achieve a rating of 69.3 @NE in the playoffs last year?

Or he could not throw 4 picks the year before.

The only teams he seems to beat in the playoffs are a horrible Den defense and a horrible KC defense. Heck he lit those teams up in blowouts...anytime it's not a mismatch he can't seem to get it done. Or even come close to getting it done so please spare me with his ultimate greatness.

[sovereignstar]

Still want to know what a 'big game' is in this definition.. Peyton has only played in 112 games... so half of his games are big games? I have a hard time buying into a definition like this... Daunte has 74 games... so well over half of his games? Come on now guys...

While I don't know what Yahoo's definition of a late and close game is, I think it's obvious that the stats that are coming out of that definition are for only a fraction of the games mentioned. In example, there has been a late and close situation in 74 of Daunte's games. There isn't 74x4 quarter's worth of stats there.

[rkmsuf]

Fine by me.. but when Daunte does not make the playoffs and Peyton loses in the AFC Championship game, don't say "See, told you Peyton chokes in big games"...

If he's played like the last two AFC title games I will apply the choker label.

He couldn't even win to secure home field from the 1 yard line with 4 tries.

He couldn't win a home playoff game vs. Ten.

[rkmsuf]

While I don't know what Yahoo's definition of a late and close game is, I think it's obvious that the stats that are coming out of that definition are for only a fraction of the games mentioned. In example, there has been a late and close situation in 74 of Daunte's games. There isn't 74x4 quarter's worth of stats there.

correct it's during the particular situtation only.

[wade moore]

Just saw that this mentions late and close games, misread it at first...

This may sound silly.. but who ever said we were discussing late and close? Is a close game necessarily a big game? I think this is definately flawed logic...

I am not saying that peyton "takes it to another level" in big games, I'm saying he is not significantly worse.... big games are playoff games, championship games, late games in the season that affect playoff positioning, etc... game 2 of the season where it is within 7 points with 5 minutes left is NOT a big game...

[Desnudo]

It is not an obvious trait... The stats above, as I stated, prove nothing imo, because i do not buy that they are an actual measure of a big game..

Yes it is an obvious trait, but if you don't want to open your eyes to it, then so be it.

[wade moore]

Yes it is an obvious trait, but if you don't want to open your eyes to it, then so be it.

Then why can you not show me something concrete to show this "obvious" trait?

Two bad games against the best team in the league two seasons in a row in the playoffs does not make an obvious "trait" either...

[Raiders Army]

Fine by me.. but when Daunte does not make the playoffs and Peyton loses in the AFC Championship game, don't say "See, told you Peyton chokes in big games"...
I don't think it'll happen, but why not? Wouldn't that be an example of Peyton choking in a big game? Other than the Superbowl, I think the AFC Championship game is a big game.

You don't even think he's going to get the opportunity to choke in the Superbowl, so I'm not sure whose side you're on. :)

[Suicane75]

Fine by me.. but when Daunte does not make the playoffs and Peyton loses in the AFC Championship game, don't say "See, told you Peyton chokes in big games"...
If he spends the whole game throwing 4 yard dump offs and showing as much fire as a slug while his team slowly gets banged around and trounced I will most certainly be saying that.

[wade moore]

If he's played like the last two AFC title games I will apply the choker label.

He couldn't even win to secure home field from the 1 yard line with 4 tries.

He couldn't win a home playoff game vs. Ten.

How has Daunte done in conference title games?

How has Daunte done securing home field advantage?

How has Daunte done in home playoff games?

[rkmsuf]

Just saw that this mentions late and close games, misread it at first...

This may sound silly.. but who ever said we were discussing late and close? Is a close game necessarily a big game? I think this is definately flawed logic...

I am not saying that peyton "takes it to another level" in big games, I'm saying he is not significantly worse.... big games are playoff games, championship games, late games in the season that affect playoff positioning, etc... game 2 of the season where it is within 7 points with 5 minutes left is NOT a big game...

Well if that's your definition of big games it really hurts your arguement.

And if you are happy that your guy can't take it another level when it counts than that's just weird.

I'd submit close games are big games but maybe for different reasons. Maybe you win those and get home field.

[wade moore]

I don't think it'll happen, but why not? Wouldn't that be an example of Peyton choking in a big game? Other than the Superbowl, I think the AFC Championship game is a big game.

You don't even think he's going to get the opportunity to choke in the Superbowl, so I'm not sure whose side you're on. :)

Getting to the playoffs does not involve big games?
Getting to the AFC Championship game does not involve a big game?

I did not know that the criteria for being a great QB meant that you were better for not making the playoffs than losing the AFC Championship game two years in a row...

That's what gets me here... Peyton is not wanted because he is a 'choker' or whatever... but Daunte is even though he can't win the games that Peyton does to get into the situation..

If we were argueing Brady vs. Peyton, I would not be saying the things I am.. but come on... Daunte has done nothing in the playoffs compared to Peyton..

[wade moore]

Well if that's your definition of big games it really hurts your arguement.

And if you are happy that your guy can't take it another level when it counts than that's just weird.

I'd submit close games are big games but maybe for different reasons. Maybe you win those and get home field.

Like I said in the post I just made.. what infuriates me here is the argument is being made in favor of Daunte over Peyton... Peyton has had a better record and gone farther in the playoffs consistently.. other QBs besides Daunte (although really only Brady and maybe McNabb) I would not argue with...

I still say that close games cannot be sweepingly claimed as big games...

[wade moore]

Dola:

Damn... time for me to head home.. no more rapid replies from me ;)

[rkmsuf]

Like I said in the post I just made.. what infuriates me here is the argument is being made in favor of Daunte over Peyton... Peyton has had a better record and gone farther in the playoffs consistently.. other QBs besides Daunte (although really only Brady and maybe McNabb) I would not argue with...

I still say that close games cannot be sweepingly claimed as big games...

I guess for me it's because I've seen Manning repeatedly in the same situation. I have no such convictions on Dante because he hasn't been in the situation where his team has been there. Is it his fault, perhaps but I don't think so whereas I believe it's very much on Manning the way the Colts have not taken the ultimate step to the SB.

[Marmel]

Ther must be some QB's who thrive on pressure and big games besides Brady and Favre. Who exactly are they?

[rkmsuf]

Ther must be some QB's who thrive on pressure and big games besides Brady and Favre. Who exactly are they?

Leftwich is that type although in a way different league.

That's the only other one I can come up with.

[rkmsuf]

In four out of the past five seasons, Manning's worst game of the season has come in the playoffs. I'll roll the dice with Culpepper, thanks.

That's a good way of putting it.

[Suicane75]

Ther must be some QB's who thrive on pressure and big games besides Brady and Favre. Who exactly are they?
I think that when McNair was 100% that he was a pretty good big game QB, dude has heart.

[Raiders Army]

Getting to the playoffs does not involve big games?
Getting to the AFC Championship game does not involve a big game?


I still say that close games cannot be sweepingly claimed as big games...

Don't your quotes contradict one another? If this were baseball, you might have an argument, but in a season with 16 games, every game is important, and the close games are big games. If you get to the playoffs and it involves big games, aren't those close games the most important and biggest, since the ones you win by a lot you've already won, and the ones you're losing by a lot you've already lost (in most cases).

[Desnudo]

I guess for me it's because I've seen Manning repeatedly in the same situation. I have no such convictions on Dante because he hasn't been in the situation where his team has been there. Is it his fault, perhaps but I don't think so whereas I believe it's very much on Manning the way the Colts have not taken the ultimate step to the SB.

In four out of the past five seasons, Manning's worst game of the season has come in the playoffs. I'll roll the dice with Culpepper, thanks.

[Raiders Army]

Well said. That's kind of where I'm at and what prompted this poll thread.
Why did you use Culpepper? Why not McNabb, since he and Manning are more similar in how their teams have performed the past few years and how far they've gone in the playoffs.

[rkmsuf]

Why did you use Culpepper? Why not McNabb, since he and Manning are more similar in how their teams have performed the past few years and how far they've gone in the playoffs.

Come on McNabb? You can't have a huddle chucker in this.

[Desnudo]

Come on McNabb? You can't have a huddle chucker in this.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-017.gif

>

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/wuerg/vomit-smiley-007.gif

[mckerney]

Ther must be some QB's who thrive on pressure and big games besides Brady and Favre. Who exactly are they?

With his last few years playoff performances and especially throwing the ball past the line last year I don't think Favre is still a big game QB.

[judicial clerk]

Come on McNabb? You can't have a huddle chucker in this.So McNabb and McNown are out.

Favre and McNair are probably also out until they prove to me that they can still compete at the highest level. I do love both these guys, though.

How about Chad Pennington as a big game QB? No? Did his shoulder heal properly over the offseason? How about Delhomme? he played good during their super bowl run.

How about Jeff Garcia as a gamer? you are probably laughing at me and calling me stupid, but I remember him moving the chains and keeping the 49ers successful there for a few years.

[WSUCougar]

Why did you use Culpepper? Why not McNabb, since he and Manning are more similar in how their teams have performed the past few years and how far they've gone in the playoffs.
It's not about their teams.

[Desnudo]

So McNabb and McNown are out.

Favre and McNair are probably also out until they prove to me that they can still compete at the highest level. I do love both these guys, though.

How about Chad Pennington as a big game QB? No? Did his shoulder heal properly over the offseason? How about Delhomme? he played good during their super bowl run.

How about Jeff Garcia as a gamer? you are probably laughing at me and calling me stupid, but I remember him moving the chains and keeping the 49ers successful there for a few years.

Delhomme does seem to have a habit of pulling wins out of thin air. He's got a little too much Jake Plummer in him though.

[larrymcg421]

What's funny about all this is Manning just has to win it all once. So if he wins the Superbowl say 5 years from now, no one will care about all the other years he didn't win.

Favre gets alot of credit for being a big game QB, but what would people say if he lost against the Patriots that year?

Elway's entire career is somehow validated because he managed to win SB's in his final two years. If Denver never drafted Terrel Davis, Elway woudl have been just as good a QB. but wouldn't have nearly the same respect.

[Desnudo]

Of course not, but Elway was still known as a 4th quarter comeback special guy, even before he won a Super Bowl. Like the drive against the Browns in the AFC Championship, for example. You don't have to win a Super Bowl to be known as a clutch player. Winning the Super Bowl is certainly an important feat, and definitely colors how people view a player's history, but it's not the only factor.

[ColtCrazy]

Yeah, I think Peyton gets labeled unfairly as a choker because he can't get past New England. Difference is, New England has a complete team. Manning does not. Neither does Dante really (although their defense should be VASTLY improved this year)

Manning's problem is that he tries to do too much, and if the offense is in a rut he starts forcing things, probably because he feels the defense will let him down if he doesn't.

He's not even 30 yet, I think he'll win one Super Bowl before it's done and then all this is pointless. Who the heck wouldn't have him over Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Kurt Warner right now, all Super Bowl winning QBs.

Speaking of Warner, he's won a Super Bowl, and he's getting the rep of a loser, which I think is very unfair.

[Desnudo]

Did Tenessee play New England?

[wade moore]

I guess for me it's because I've seen Manning repeatedly in the same situation. I have no such convictions on Dante because he hasn't been in the situation where his team has been there. Is it his fault, perhaps but I don't think so whereas I believe it's very much on Manning the way the Colts have not taken the ultimate step to the SB.


That's why this is silly... You're basically saying Manning will be a choker until he wins the super bowl... That makes no sense to me.. He can win any number of games, but if he loses his last one, nope, sorry buddy.. he's a choker...

Like folks said... Elway did not have the 'choker' reputation, yet he lost several super bowls...

I just don't get it... he wins games, he wins tons in the regular season, he blows out teams in the playoffs (people seem to discount this because the teams are bad?! what the hell are they in the playoffs for then?!).... we have some stats that show 'big games' but it is close games so his blowouts in the playoffs don't count..

it's all absurd in my book..