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View Full Version : Is Joe Torre really that good?

Deattribution
10-11-2005, 02:29 PM
I know you can only do so much to make up for your players under preforming, but you have people calling this year his best manageriall job to date - and I don't get it...

Yeah, there's alot of pressure in NY, and he was put in some awkward situations, but what part of a 200+ million dollar payroll under preforming is a great job?

They have continously did less with more for years, and even when they were at their height, it was more like 'no shit' then it was they were such a great team.

So am I missing something considering I see all the resources he's had, or is Joe Torre really that good?
rkmsuf
10-11-2005, 02:31 PM
He's good. He didn't pick the groceries even if they are high priced groceries. He's not like super manager but no doubt he's quality.
moriarty
10-11-2005, 02:32 PM
I know you can only do so much to make up for your players under preforming, but you have people calling this year his best manageriall job to date - and I don't get it...

Yeah, there's alot of pressure in NY, and he was put in some awkward situations, but what part of a 200+ million dollar payroll under preforming is a great job?

They have continously did less with more for years, and even when they were at their height, it was more like 'no shit' then it was they were such a great team.

So am I missing something considering I see all the resources he's had, or is Joe Torre really that good?

I think the fact his pitching rotation was awful was not really his fault this year. Having said that, I don't think Torre was ever that 'great' as a manager, I just think he was the right personality for that team. It's harder than it looks to manage a bunch of overpaid stars, and I think he has the right tempermanent/ego that he's made it work for the past 8-10 years or whatever he's been in charge.
jeff061
10-11-2005, 02:32 PM
I'd take him over Francona. Yankee taint and all.
rkmsuf
10-11-2005, 02:33 PM
I'd take him over Francona. Yankee taint and all.

To be fair Tito does a good job overall. It's an impossible place to manage in.
jeff061
10-11-2005, 02:37 PM
No doubt, all managers get taken to task in Boston. But I think he coddles the Millar posse, rather than telling him to STFU or even fostering a less high schoolish social structure on the team. I just don't like the attitude of the team, haven't since he came on and Millar "rose to power".
Deattribution
10-11-2005, 02:38 PM
Well yeah, I'd agree Torre is 'good', just hear so much how he's one if not the greatest manager ever, and I don't how you can say that about a guy who before he inherited a 100+ million dollar payroll team couldn't even win his division more than once.
rkmsuf
10-11-2005, 02:38 PM
No doubt, all managers get taken to task in Boston. But I think he coddles the Millar posse, rather than telling him to STFU or even fostering a less high schoolish social structure on the team. I just don't like the attitude of the team, haven't since he came on and Millar "rose to power".


you are aware they won the whole thing with a bunch of malcontents right?
Anthony
10-11-2005, 02:38 PM
he's overrated. how much managing of ego's in baseball does one really need to do? all you need to do is know where to bat whom in the lineup.
jeff061
10-11-2005, 02:42 PM
Yes I am, and I was negative about them that whole year for the same reason :). I'm glad they won it, doesn't mean I can't hate the players and how the coach handles them.

I don't know how Torre would handle it in Boston, I'd like to think he'd tone things down some and keep players more focused at the task at hand. Who knows though. Belichick and the Pats have spoiled me.
Galaxy
10-11-2005, 02:42 PM
He's good. He didn't pick the groceries even if they are high priced groceries. He's not like super manager but no doubt he's quality.


Yeap, key statement-it's not his team. He's just the head puppet.
GreenMonster
10-11-2005, 02:43 PM
To be fair Tito does a good job overall. It's an impossible place to manage in.

Tito did much better last year than this year.. Sticking with Millar when Olerud is hot and then vice versa. Like you said impossible place to manage and I can't think of many guys to replace him now that he has done it for 2 years. Something tells me they will again look at Ken Macha..
vtbub
10-11-2005, 02:49 PM
Tito did much better last year than this year.. Sticking with Millar when Olerud is hot and then vice versa. Like you said impossible place to manage and I can't think of many guys to replace him now that he has done it for 2 years. Something tells me they will again look at Ken Macha..

Ewwww...Macha.

I'm so-so on Tito. I do agree that he was better last year, but he can't pitch, which was the big one this year.

I'd rather have Torre than Cox or Larussa, but Sciocia is baseball's best.
Ramzavail
10-11-2005, 02:53 PM
aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.
GreenMonster
10-11-2005, 02:54 PM
Ewwww...Macha.

I'm so-so on Tito. I do agree that he was better last year, but he can't pitch, which was the big one this year.

I'd rather have Torre than Cox or Larussa, but Sciocia is baseball's best.


I didn't say I liked Macha, just that I believe the Sox will give him a look.. I am with you on Sciocia. Considering the other candiates right now, I see Tito coming back..
GreenMonster
10-11-2005, 02:55 PM
aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.

That would be Cashman, along with the Chacon trade.. The moves they have made the last 2 offseasons though were just plain stupid..
sterlingice
10-11-2005, 02:59 PM
aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.
Um, no. Does that mean Jose Lima's 6-0 with 3 ERA in 2003 off the independent league scrap heap makes Tony Pena a genius manager (finishing 8-3 with a 4.91 after coming back from injury)?

SI
moriarty
10-11-2005, 03:01 PM
Yeap, key statement-it's not his team. He's just the head puppet.

Well if you give him credit for winning with loaded teams, you also have to give him some of the blame for losing with a less than perfect lineup.

He's not the guy I'd want to hire if I was starting up a new franchise or had a bunch of young players, but I think he's the best choice for NY (the year withstanding).
33sherman
10-11-2005, 03:03 PM
Torre did all the right things with the bullpen during the World Series years--but then again they had a great bullpen those years, guys who always seemed to do their job(Rivera, Nelson Stanton, Lloyd, Mendoza, etc.). The past few years he hasn't had dependable guys in the bullpen, so his formula breaks down. Add that to the subpar starting pitching and they aren't as successful in the playoffs. Torre is good only as far as his good pitchers take him.
clintl
10-11-2005, 08:39 PM
Torre has lasted 10 years without getting fired by Steinbrenner. No one else has ever come close.

Seriously, I think he was a great fit for the Yankees. He was pretty average, though, in his previous managerial stints with the Mets and Braves.
ISiddiqui
10-11-2005, 10:22 PM
Don't forget St. Louis. He actually did decent in his 3 years with the Braves, but to be the best manager ever, you have to do it in more than one place. Torre really hasn't done that.
Young Drachma
10-12-2005, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I'm agreeing with the comment about him not doing that great in STL. I think he's a decent manager and he's been at it a long time and I credit him for that. He'll get into the hall because of all the titles they've won, especially when the Veterans Committee is stacked and we all harken back the days of yore when the Yanks won a lot.

But...he's just above average. I don't know that I'd want him in a challenging situation say, Toronto right now.
Lathum
10-12-2005, 03:16 AM
Torre is perfect for that team because he is willing to deflect critisizem from his players to himself
Deattribution
10-12-2005, 12:03 PM
Torre is perfect for that team because he is willing to deflect critisizem from his players to himself

For a cool 8 mill a year you could could deflect feces from the restrooms to me and I'd be alright.
Blade6119
10-12-2005, 12:12 PM
Don't forget St. Louis. He actually did decent in his 3 years with the Braves, but to be the best manager ever, you have to do it in more than one place. Torre really hasn't done that.

He sucked it up in STL, we fired him for a reason...La russa is infinently better then torre, any day of the week
Ramzavail
10-12-2005, 12:27 PM
That would be Cashman, along with the Chacon trade.. The moves they have made the last 2 offseasons though were just plain stupid..

Wrong. When Brian Cashman signs Aaron Small for a free agent contract he isn't expecting more than a triple A pitcher. Joe Torre is the one giving him the ball vs. the Red Sox at Yankee stadium, pitching him on the road against Oakland (shutout).

The Chacon trade I'd give Cashman credit for. Not the blind signing of Aaron Small.

Um, no. Does that mean Jose Lima's 6-0 with 3 ERA in 2003 off the independent league scrap heap makes Tony Pena a genius manager (finishing 8-3 with a 4.91 after coming back from injury)?

SI

Wrong part deux. That is the worst correlation I've heard in a while. You've compared a former 20 game winner to a guy that was a cup of coffee guy for 7-8 years. A quintessential AAAA player. Even though Jose Lima started 2004 in the independent league, he had still played in the majors the previous 10 years. We aren't talking about a guy who has been on the cusp of the major leagues like Aaron Small has been.