DeBate: Notre Dame's Decision To Give Weis $40 M Is At Least Somewhat Racist... [Archive]

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Chief Rum

11-02-2005, 02:10 AM

Okay, ifier topic today then yesterday. Let's keep it intellectual, guys. I know you all can have a civil discussion about race without it becoming a flame war.

So here it is: Weis goes 5-2, with his best win coming against a decent, but not great Michigan team. His best game comes in a last second loss to powerful USC. He gets a record-breaking, 10-year, $40 M contract. Weis is, of course, white.

Ty Willingham goes 8-0 to start his career in South Bend, including six 2002 bowl teams. The record is better, the schedule more impressive, the predecessor (Davies) more horrid. He doesn't get anything near what Weis gets. And TyWill is black.

So did race play a part at all in the decisions (or non-decisions) to give these coaches extensions?

Debate...

SackAttack

11-02-2005, 02:16 AM

Willingham went from the Pac-10 to Notre Dame and found immediate success before floundering.

Weis went from the three-time Super Bowl champion Patriots to Notre Dame and found immediate success, including nearly knocking off a team that hadn't lost in more than two seasons.

My first question would be, what was the NFL buzz surrounding each guy? Was Willingham being cited as a potential defector to the NFL? Did he have previous NFL experience that might've made him more "willing" (rim shot) to make the jump?

I don't think race matters much here. I think it comes down to Notre Dame made a change to try to bring back the glory, and with Weis having the NFL pedigree *and* doing a pretty damn good job of that with a team that:

a) nobody expected to be this good, given recent seasons, and
b) was completely made up of players he hadn't recruited,

that the risk of him leaving for the NFL was greater than with Willingham. Somebody else pointed out on Saturday, given the comparatively low NFL buyout he previously had, the extension was probably done to raise the buyout and reduce the risk of a Weis departure.

I don't think Willingham presented that same risk (and you can probably argue whether race played a factor in the limited or nonexistent NFL buzz around him at the time), and so he wasn't shown the money.

Schmidty

11-02-2005, 02:21 AM

This will most likely turn ugly. Before it gets that way, here's my simple response:

No, it wasn't racist, it was just stupid.

RailsFS

11-02-2005, 02:37 AM

This will most likely turn ugly. Before it gets that way, here's my simple response:

No, it wasn't racist, it was just stupid.
....what he said.

Wasabiak

11-02-2005, 02:41 AM

Michigan sucks. The lowly Gophers beat them, at Ann Arbor, for God's sack!

Racist? Who knows. Name recognition seems to go a long way in sports. Stupid? I would say premature is a better word.

RailsFS

11-02-2005, 02:48 AM

I'd still say stupid, just based off the length of the deal. I completely understand locking him up to raise the NFL buyout money. I also understand that it gives them a premier head coach (at least in terms of visibility). I do not understand the length at all. Why not make it a shorter deal just in case, you know, he pulls a "Ty?"

SirFozzie

11-02-2005, 02:54 AM

Fairly unstupid (there were NFL teams already sniffing around him, and if hetook the time to shut down all the rumors, it would allow other coaches to use it against ND in recruiting. And no way in hell is it racist, except for people who want to make it.

If this team is because of WIllingham, how come they got bombed so many times last year? It's not like the team suddenly changed, except for the boss.

Solecismic

11-02-2005, 04:50 AM

It's a shame race has to enter into this discussion, though obviously it has among the press.

All this is going to do is erect an additional barrier for black coaches, because now athletic directors know they can't fire a black coach who isn't working out without being labelled as racist.

Ragone

11-02-2005, 05:07 AM

The guy who wrote the article that spawned this is a f'n idiot and a racist.. that being said i agree totally with Jim on this one..

cthomer5000

11-02-2005, 05:47 AM

DeBate Who is this DeBate you speak of?

miami_fan

11-02-2005, 05:51 AM

Michigan sucks. The lowly Gophers beat them, at Ann Arbor, for God's sack!

Racist? Who knows. Name recognition seems to go a long way in sports. Stupid? I would say premature is a better word.

I am going to go with the premature crowd. I don't think that ANY other school would have given that sort of extension to ANY other coach.

Ksyrup

11-02-2005, 06:39 AM

That article is terrible. I guess there has been a rush to claim Ralph Wiley's throne of "Mr. Racism in Sports," because that's about all I read from black "journalists" these days. Give it a rest.

First of all, I agree that giving Weis such a contract this early is stupid. However, I don't think we can judge Weis vs. Willingham solely on their records after 8 games. Surely there are things that go on in an organization that no one outside of it sees. And my guess is that Willingham the administrator and recruiter didn't look as good as 8-0 suggests. Weis, on the other hand, probably looks far better than 5-2 suggests. So I don't think the decisions on both of these guys had all that much to do with their records. That may have been all Willingham had, and when that became mediocre, there was no reason to keep him.

I have no clue what happened and why they favor Weise over Willingham like they do, but I'm not going to factor in racism as the first reason - especially without a single shred of evidence.

Samdari

11-02-2005, 06:44 AM

The very important piece of information that this argument often ignores is that Weis had a very high profile in the "future NFL head coaches" list before he came to Notre Dame, whereas Willingham did not. That was a larger factor in the decision to offer Weis the ridiculous contract than race. Not that I think race did not play a part at that university.

lynchjm24

11-02-2005, 06:51 AM

If supply and demand is racist, then yes, the contract is racist.

panerd

11-02-2005, 07:06 AM

I must be on Chief Rum's ignore list!

Almost the exact same question (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=44044)

DanGarion

11-02-2005, 07:59 AM

I think they hastily extended the contract without any real reason to do it. Make the guy have a couple seasons of recruiting see if he's all he's supposed to be. Ty wasn't given a fair shot, lots of players didn't agree with the move of letting him go. Weis hasn't done anything yet, but he gets a huge contract, it confuses me.

JonInMiddleGA

11-02-2005, 08:04 AM

Ksyrup

11-02-2005, 08:10 AM

Fairly unstupid (there were NFL teams already sniffing around him, and if hetook the time to shut down all the rumors, it would allow other coaches to use it against ND in recruiting. And no way in hell is it racist, except for people who want to make it.
It still doesn't make that much sense, though, to give the guy that much money so soon. I understand the problem of other teams using the "he may leave that s chool at any moment" ploy when recruiting, but this just seems to go beyond the bounds of reason, at least at this point in his career. FSU had to do the same thing with Bobby Bowden a year or so ago, when the rumors of his retirement were apparently affected recruiting, and they gave him a 7 year extension or something like that. The difference, IMO, is that even if Bowden doesn't last half that long, he's worth that money for everything he's done for the school. Weis could be a hot NFL guy now, but in 3 years fall flat on his ass and be looking to join Matt Dougherty at FAU. Hey, it could happen. And they'd still be on the hook for around $25 million. Insane!

gstelmack

11-02-2005, 08:47 AM

An interesting note on Willingham:

Notre Dame's loss to USC marked the fifth time the Irish lost by 31 points or more under Willingham -- including three against the rival Trojans. By comparison, the Irish under Davie had just one such loss; Lou Holtz and Dan Devine had none.
I think if Weis runs into the same troubles, they won't keep him 10 years either. The extension was to keep him bolting to the NFL as mentioned here.

What I can't find are contract terms for both contracts. Is Weis getting a raise after one good year, while Ty didn't? That might be more telling in this case, although I suspect that at least some additional money must be coming Weis' way for giving up on the NFL opportunities.

Samdari

11-02-2005, 08:55 AM

That's certainly an interesting note, Greg, but irrelevant to the discussion of how 6-2 Weis was rewarded and an 8-0 Willingham was not. None of those losses happened in the first 7-8 games, during which Willingham's teams outperformed Weis', but Weis was given the huge money deal instead of Willingham. On that basis alone, it is possible to conclude that the respective color of their skins was a factor in such a decision.

Does anyone else think that Weis (through third parties, obviously) manufactured rumors of NFL interest a bit in order to get big money?

kcchief19

11-02-2005, 09:09 AM

I agree that the biggest difference between the two situations is that Weis has much more established credentials for going to the NFL and was going to get serious considerations and offers. If Notre Dame thinks he is the coach he appears to be, they needed to move not only to lock him up but also to remove the ability of opposing coaches in recruiting of tellling players not to go to Notre Dame because Weis is headed toward the NFL. On those counts, it certainly makes sense.

I believe race played no role in giving a long-term contract to Weis. The question is whether race played a role in not giving a long-term contract to Willingham. Like I said last week, I can't say 100 percent that race didn't play a role in the differences between the two situations. There have been too many accounts over the years that several influential boosters were unhappy Notre Dame hired Willingham because he was black. Given that I know people who were unhappy or made derogatory comments about the Willingham hiring based on race, I have not doubt believing those reports to have some basis in fact. God knows Notre Dame also suffered through mediocrity with some of its previous white coaches before pulling the trigger than they did with Willingham, which only adds to the question.

I do agree with Jim's point. I think bringing up race in cases where it doesn't apply does run the risk of making future ADs think that hiring a black coach is problematic because you'll be accused of being racist if you fire them. Unfortunately, I think the only short-term answer to that is to get over it. You don't hire and fire people because of race and if you suffer the consequences at least you do it knowing you did the right thing. I realize that's a utopian belief, but it's what has to happen for the situation to get better in the long run.

gstelmack

11-02-2005, 09:24 AM

Does anyone else think that Weis (through third parties, obviously) manufactured rumors of NFL interest a bit in order to get big money?
Weis almost died a few years ago from stomach-stapling surgery in an effort to make himself more presentable for NFL head-coaching opportunities, as he was told that was pretty much the only thing holding him back. There have been rumors swirling around him for years.

So, no.

Wolfpack

11-02-2005, 09:29 AM

I can't say race would be a main factor in the different treatment between Willingham and Weis. As others have noted, Weis had an NFL pedigree and therefore was susceptible to being hired away by an NFL team. Willingham didn't. Frankly, I think the ten-year extension was done to make sure he didn't leave after one. However, make no mistake, if an NFL team wanted him, they could certainly pony up to get him. By the same token, if Weiss suddenly flops, there are lots of deep pockets at Notre Dame who'd probably afford his buyout. In a twisted sense, this actually gives both Weis and Notre Dame a chance to find out whether they are actually right for each other.

BTW, it does not hurt in the slightest that he's an alum. Willingham may have been able to appreciate the history and tradition, but an alum would have a deeper connection to the school than any typical coach and thus would have a tougher time going to another job. It is probably why there have been a large number of hires over the last several years where coaches have, in effect, "gone home". Now, the jury's still out on whether these alumni coaches actually are worth their salt (very mixed results from what I've seen), but I'm sure ND wants to keep Weis long enough to find out if he is it for them.

Samdari

11-02-2005, 09:31 AM

Weis almost died a few years ago from stomach-stapling surgery in an effort to make himself more presentable for NFL head-coaching opportunities, as he was told that was pretty much the only thing holding him back. There have been rumors swirling around him for years.

So, no.

It is not the interest in him I find puzzling, it is the timing.

NFL teams rarely pursue coaches for next season in the middle of the current season. At least if they do, we don't hear about it. Someone leaked the information (true or not) that NFL teams were courting Weis for next season to the media. In general, the source of such leaks can be traced to who benefits from having the leaked information be public. In this case, the only beneficiary to such info being public would be Weis.

Perhaps manufactured was the wrong word. Try leaked. And since nobody would ever confirm the information, perhaps exaggerated (at least the level to which he was being pursued now) would not be too farfetched either.

Samdari

11-02-2005, 09:34 AM

if an NFL team wanted him, they could certainly pony up to get him. By the same token, if Weiss suddenly flops, there are lots of deep pockets at Notre Dame who'd probably afford his buyout.

In a way, you point out the ridiculousness of contract extensions for college coaches. Weiss is in no way guaranteed over 35 million dollars. I would not be surprised to find that the buyout either way is less than 2 million.

gstelmack

11-02-2005, 09:43 AM

It is not the interest in him I find puzzling, it is the timing.

NFL teams rarely pursue coaches for next season in the middle of the current season. At least if they do, we don't hear about it. Someone leaked the information (true or not) that NFL teams were courting Weis for next season to the media. In general, the source of such leaks can be traced to who benefits from having the leaked information be public. In this case, the only beneficiary to such info being public would be Weis.

Perhaps manufactured was the wrong word. Try leaked. And since nobody would ever confirm the information, perhaps exaggerated (at least the level to which he was being pursued now) would not be too farfetched either.
What leaks? As I understand it, there have been several discussions about coaches that would be fired, and speculation that Weiss would be high on the list. Since there has been speculation about Weiss for the last 3 years, how is this any different than any other NFL season?

Did I miss a specific leak?

This still sounds like Weiss is doing a good job, several NFL coaches aren't (including it looking like Martz has been essentially fired in the middle of the season), and Notre Dame moved before an NFL franchise could get to him. As pointed out, this is especially critical for recruiting.

scooper

11-02-2005, 09:51 AM

Not that I think race did not play a part at that university.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Why? What about the history of Notre Dame implies racism?

Was it the fact that they hired a black coach in the first place when only three out of the other 116 teams had one?

Was it maybe ND's history in social activism? Look up the book about Notre Dame vs. the Klan. It might open your eyes a bit.

Is it the fact that ND graduates their African-American athletes at the same high rate they graduate their white athletes? Suggestion-do a little homework and look up that rate for your favorite college football program. I'll bet ND shines brighter. They want ALL of their athletes to succeed in the classroom-regardless of color.

Maybe it was Ara Parsegian pulling his team out of hotels in the south when they wouldn't let ND's black players stay there.

Nope, they fired a black coach who was blown out more times in three years than the entire history of ND football. They then rewarded the current coach who had NFL rumors swirling about them. Those damned racists.

Jim's right. This Whitlock's unfounded musings will only hurt African American coaches in the future.

Raiders Army

11-02-2005, 09:54 AM

Charlie Weis is white?

scooper

11-02-2005, 09:56 AM

I posted this in the other Weis thread before I say this one. It is from NDnation.com.

The Rock 11/2

And the dumbest man covering football in America is?

- Adam Schefter
- Jason Whitlock
- The fan who thought storing his hot grill under his car's gas tank was a great way to keep it out of the rain

And the winner is?

There are no winners above, but at least the last guy had a flair for the dramatic.

Seriously, we're getting all of these emails about Whitlock's "Cry Racism" column; a piece so bereft of sense or objectivity it looks like a SNL parody

This one's not hard. There are two sure ways to get someone to respond to a column:

1. - Cry Racism
2. - Attack Notre Dame.

Congratulations, Mr. Whitlock you hit the exacta, but unfortunately you're gaining eyes for a column that shows you as either a hack journalist, a race baiting opportunist or both. I felt slimy just reading it.

"Did you know" that Whitlock comes from the same school (Ball State) as resident Chicago hack David Haugh? Does Ball State have a minor in subjective emoting masquerading as writing? I digress (again.)

In the spirit of multiculturalism, I'll let a collegiate coalition of fans rebut this pile of steaming dung (http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=399264-THEROCK;d=this) he tries to spin as a column as I ain't wasting my time on such a juvenile rant. You know your column is pathetic when you force two schools that don't care for Notre Dame to defend it. Here are internet posts from a Michigan fan (seriously,) a Washington fan (yup) and Notre Dame student. The Rock gets a pseudo day off.

MICHIGAN FAN

Brian (from mgoblog) responds to The Supreme Fatty's column. Brian's no fan of Notre Dame, either. This is great, though:

And G@#$ d@#& him even further for making me write this missive about effing Notre Dame, but I have to. Jason Whitlock wrote this garbage...
Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million ... that strikes me as racist.

... so I am compelled to respond. Because Jason Whitlock's an asshole. Because there is a certain subset of black journalists that have carved out careers exclusively by calling people racist. Because there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything Notre Dame has done in the way it's handled Tyrone Willingham.

Why was Willingham fired when Bob Davie was given five years to fail in? Because of Bob Davie. If you reversed the two Notre Dame careers of the bumbling head coaches, Willingham would have gotten five and Davie three. By the time the Willingham era was spiralling into year three of total ineptitude, Notre Dame was over a decade removed from prominence. They had a short fuse, and--this is key--it had everything to do with what happened on the field and in recruiting and nothing to do with Willingham's race, unless you think that Ron Zook is passing.

Tyrone Willingham was Zooking Notre Dame. Anyone who saw his teams play could see that his 8-0 starting record was built on the shifting sand of fluke turnovers and fortuitous bounces. When the bounces stopped coming, so did the wins, and so did the recruits. The real reason Willingham went down in flames will hopefully be apparent in exactly two years, when the fruits of Davie's labors and Willingham's one good class evaporate and the Irish are left with a motely crew of handicapped midgets and Norwegian whalers on the offensive and defensive lines. The writing was on the wall; each year of Willingham's continued employment would be paid back with two additional years of onfield ineptitude. Believe me, I pay more attention to this than you do to your feed trough, Whitlock. As an opposing fan I gloried in the idea of Years 4 and 5 of Willingham. I am the canary in the coalmine.

Then Weis comes in, immediately starts racking up a metric ton of recruits that will have to play very early, demonstrates that Brady Quinn is not in fact functionally retarded, and nearly beats OMG USC to send the nation into a tizzy. So when NFL.com publishes a very public, very plausible story that a former NFL coordinator who had been angling for an NFL job previous to taking a collegiate one and is apparently experiencing great success at his new home could bolt to the NFL, it is a wise and PR-savvy thing to make a sweeping, meaningless gesture, which there's a 99% chance this is.

Whitlock, you sanctimonious idiot, have you ever considered the fact that "buyouts" exist? I guarantee you that Notre Dame has an option to buy Weis out of his ten billion year contract that is almost identical to the one they had before they redid it. Even if they've unwisely tied themselves to Weis for ten years basd on seven games it's besides the point. Weis' fat new contract is unprecedented in the history of college football. No coach has ever gotten a ten year, 40 million dollar contract after seven games before.

So riddle me this: how was Notre Dame's decision to treat Willingham exactly like any other coach in history in his first year racist?

Exactly.

Whitlock's constant cries of racism obscure the fact that the person doing the most damage to black coaches here is Whitlock himself. What does he think he's doing for black coaches around the country? Don't think for a second that any other football power is going to hire a black coach without thinking long and hard about the repercussions if things go awry. No one wants to get pilloried unfairly as racists by you and your ilk (Scoop Jackson on line 2) when the coach gets fired or doesn't get an extension or just has a bad day. As long as "black coach" is synonymous for "giant target for media assholes," teams with success will reasonably avoid them like the plague, leaving the publicity-seeking Mississippi States and New Mexico States of the world to hire them into death jobs and then fire them from their death jobs.

But I guess Whitlock has made a career out of this crap. He's a "controversial" idiot for money. This is what you're doing, Jason: you're selling out black coaches across the country at the behest of The Man so you can get your sweaty paws on some loot. You're the Uncle Tom of college football.

WASHINGTON FAN

1. It sure seems odd to label as "racist" the same people that hired the minority coach in the first place. Let me guess, it was some master conspiracy to weaken the black coaching fraternity by hiring and them prematurely firing the guy?

2. These racists offered to let him keep him job if he would make changes in his coaching staff, and he decided to do otherwise.

3. The net scoring margin (points scored vs. points allowed) in Weis's first seven games is larger (i.e., better) than in Ty's first eight games, even at 5-2 vs. 8-0. It has been proven in the baseball context that your ability to do the things that lead to wins is a better predictor of future W-L than current W-L. In other words, the team that has scored 500 runs and allowed 450 is more likely to have a better record in the future than a team that has scored 475 and allowed 450, even if the second team currently has a better record. Given that Weis's team has shown itself to be better at scoring points relative to their points allowed that Willingham's first team, it is reasonable to expect that Weis's future record will be better than Willingham's record after his 8-0 start.

4. MOST IMPORTANTLY, there are many reports indicating that NFL teams will/would come after Weis in the offseason. This was not the case with Ty. EVEN IF THE RUMORS ARE NOT TRUE, the mere fact of the rumors themselves were enough to hurt ND recruiting. ND had to put a stop to the rumors. To the extent that ND believes Weis is a good coach and they didn't want to lose him, and to the extent that they believed recruiting would suffer otherwise, the extension was smart.

NOTRE DAME FAN

"Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back."

-In Willingham's first year, the Irish offense was anemic. Notre Dame ranked No. 109 in the nation in scoring. We won games on smoke and mirrors, not well-executed plays. Furthermore, there is a reason NFL teams wanted Weis and not Willingham. It's not because of skin color; it's because Weis considered by most to be an offensive genius, whereas Willingham ran neither the offense or defense on his teams. In fact, he was known as a motivator, yet couldn't get his team "up" to play Boston College in the ninth game of the 2002 season or in the opener against BYU last September.

"Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to."

-Notre Dame was 3.5-point underdogs against Pittsburgh, and the line was more than a touchdown in Michigan's favor in Week 2.

"Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC."

-No, Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is proving that Notre Dame CAN succeed on the football field without relinquishing its academic and conduct standards. He took the 80th best offense in the country last year and turned it into a top-10 offense, as the Irish are averaging 38 points per game. What makes this even more astounding is the players in Weis' system. Every single starter on the Irish offense was on the team last year, but Willingham failed to develop their skills.

"The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.
Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense."

-This is the best case under which to indict Willingham. He failed miserably in developing potential. Junior Jeff Samardzija is second in the country this year with 11 touchdown receptions. Last year, he was behind the following on the Irish depth chart: Maurice Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Matt Shelton, Carlyle Holiday, and Chase Anastasio. Who? Exactly. Willingham and offensive coordinator Bill Diedrick (now an unpaid consultant with the Calgary Stampeders) were so inept at evaluating talent that they allowed one of the best receivers in the country to waste two years of eligibility, as Samardzija caught just 24 passes and no touchdowns total in limited action over two years. Brady Quinn went from 50-percent-completion-percentage bust to Heisman-hopeful and future NFL star in just seven games under Weis. Willingham and Diedrick nearly ruined both Samardzija and Quinn's chances at the NFL. Only thanks to a good decision by University President Fr. John Jenkins and the Board of Trustees did these class acts get the coaching they deserved.

"In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams - all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43."

-True, but the Irish failed to score an offensive touchdown until the third game of the season. Once again, smoke and mirrors. When a true test came against Southern California later that season, Willingham showed exactly where he would lead the Irish in a fight against the best team in the country - to a 31-point loss. Asked about the three consecutive 31-point victories his Trojans had over us, Pete Carroll said it best after the epic Oct. 15 game in Notre Dame: "Yeah - I think those days are over."

"Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal."

-You prove yourself to be completely ignorant as to how the story got out with this line. Here's the deal: An NFL.com writer, who also happened to graduate from the University of Michigan, wrote an unsubstantiated, uncorroborated story that said "several" NFL teams were calling Notre Dame asking about a potential buy-out clause. Adam Schefter never called Weis, never called his agent, and never called anyone from the University. Athletic Director Kevin White and associate Athletic Director John Heisler had the foresight to realize how such a story could cripple recruiting (another subject I'll touch on later). They initiated talks with Weis and signed the extension to help the program and minimize recruiting damage. This didn't happen under Willingham because not a single team from the NFL expressed interest in buying out his contract. Thus far, Weis has filled 19 of 25 available spots in the recruiting class for next year. He got his top two quarterbacks and his top running back recruit. He's waiting on a few offensive linemen and speedy defenders. Rumors about him going to the NFL do not help his cause. If you think Weis floated the story, you need to accuse him of lying. In his press conference he said that he thought it was an unnecessary distraction and didn't want to deal with it. In regards to your attacks on Weis personally, I will bring up another line...

"If the New York Giants or any other NFL team decides it wants Weis as its coach, there's no amount of money that is going to stand in the way of that getting done. Only Weis can stop that deal by saying he'd prefer to remain a college coach."

-Weis has done just that. Making an unsupported claim that he floated the NFL rumors demeans the man and insults his character. Since December 12, he has shown one characteristic above all - to be true to his word. He said the turnaround wouldn't take as long as the media expected, and he proved himself right. He said he would bring new life into the program, and he has. He promised a dying boy a pass right, and he delivered. He said he came here for his family and to coach Notre Dame through his 11-year-old son's college days, and I have every reason to believe him.

"Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind."

-Last year, Samardzija was hardly used. "Mature" and "experienced" don't apply. "Underutilized" and "underdeveloped" do. The same goes for standout tight end Anthony Fasano. I don't understand how you can dedicate a whole column to branding a University as racist without knowing all the facts. Don't you understand the reason students here like me get so riled up when you say this is because how much we believe in virtues of equality and rightness. Racism smacks in the face of such virtues, and I certainly believe I am be above that. My sheer hatred for racism makes my anger even more when you accuse my university of such actions. Am I racist for supporting his firing? Do I extol the virtues of the Old South because I thought a man was a poor football coach? Am I a burden to society because I think I could better run a football team than Tyrone Willingham but not than Charlie Weis?

"Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it."

-Sir, you ignore facts, insult a great man, and displayed a lack of integrity that the man you demean would never. If you don't understand how despicable such an action is, then you need to do some soul-searching. Charlie Weis is a public figure, and so are you, so both are open for criticism. The only difference is that if we were all were like him, truth would abound. If we were all like you, truth would play second-fiddle to headlines and hatred.

The Rock reminds Mr. Whitlock to live by the ol' axiom: "Weis men are cautious where fools are sure."

waltwal

11-02-2005, 10:30 AM

i think a couple of things are missed in this discussion. i have always had a pretty high regard for ty willingham but i would not consider him any better than a solid div1-a football coach. is my opinion of him based on his record. no not entirely. it is based on everything that i have read and heard about him, some of it from people close to stanford . do i think notre dame made the right decision on weis- let me answer it like this. if they made their decision based solely on his 5-2 record then i think their decision was premature. if they looked at his entire program- recruiting, off-field decisions etc then maybe a 20 year contract was in order. it is hard to tell because most of us don't know all the things he has done in the eyes of the people who are close to nd that made this decision.

i am close to a situation where i think a 10 year extension would have been in order in his first year. this is a situation that i am fairly close to. i played for cal, i have a lot of friends who live in the berkeley area who are close to the program. i know jeff tedford and also coaches on his staff. i have 30 years of coaching experience and have attended not only games but also practices and have watched the program in action. i also pay close attention to their recruiting efforts. in my opinion tedford and his staff could be as good a program as there is in america. his first year record was 7-5 but anyone who was watching saw the rebirth of a long dormant program. there was so much more that improved other than his record. the alumni and students went absolutely crazy over cal football. the administration could not wait to lock this guy up because they knew they had a great coach and they also knew the pros and other top programs would be coming in the immediate future.

i see a lot of similiarities with weis at notre dame, i don't have the same inside knowledge but i do know this. in any field when you hire a person and then give them very difficult jobs you don't base your evaluation of that person solely on his success ratio but rather how they perform at very difficult sometimes unwinnable tasks.

it is so easy to say that willingham started 8-0 and weis 5-2 but there is so much more that goes into the evaluation of a head coach. i believe vince lombardi was 7-5 in his first year at green bay but i believe that the people who were close to green bay saw so much more than a 5 loss season.

people in positions of authority often make bad decisions but i get the feeling that if i watched coach weis on a daily basis and had the chance to evaluate him up close my feeling is that i would agree with the 10 year extension. on the other hand if i had the same opportunity with willingham i would have given him his full 5 years but the thought of a 10 year extension would not have entered my mind at any time.

when it comes to willingham and notre dame the one thing that will always bother me is that gerry faust, a bumbling idiot who the players wound up laughing at, got his full 5 years and willingham did not. i have always been curious as to the reasoning behind that story.

scooper

11-02-2005, 10:39 AM

walt, good post.

As for Faust v Willingham, you can also add Davie to that question.

Many believe had Ty been at ND before Davie, it would have been Ty that coached 5 years and Davie for 3. It was as much about timing as it was about which coach got the full five years. Speaking of which, per his contract, Ty was bought out by ND. I believe it was $6 million, so his contract was honored.

Unfortunately for Ty, he happened to be the coach in place when the new administration at ND and their supporters saw the football team declining and decided to make a change.

In regard to your post, when the position opened up, Tedford was my first choice. I think he's one heck of a college coach.

WSUCougar

11-02-2005, 10:50 AM

Here's a related commentary from the Washington Post back in December 2004, after Willingham was fired by Notre Dame:
Notre Dame's True Colors

By Michael Wilbon
Wednesday, December 1, 2004

The powers-that-be at Notre Dame, way too many of them anyway, never wanted Tyrone Willingham in the first place. The alums and the club boosters who donate tens of thousands of dollars and who influence opinion in South Bend never coveted Ty Willingham in the first place. They tolerated him. They made their peace with him being there. They hoped he would win. But they didn't want him. The whole three years Willingham was there, the power brokers stood with arms folded and feet tapping, staring at the clock trying to determine when his time would be up.

They hired George O'Leary, not knowing he had lied on his résumé. They wanted Jon Gruden, but he wouldn't leave the NFL. They wanted Mike Shanahan, but he wouldn't leave pro football, either. So when they had grown exhausted from chasing, but not catching their favorites, they turned desperately to Willingham and hoped he would deliver them not only from the O'Leary debacle but deliver magic. For the most part, they were never emotionally committed to him. They never loved him or treated him like "The Coach." The thinking was that if he went 10-1 every year, he could stay, and at that point they might even grow to like him. A good many of them were betting against him when he arrived.

So Willingham was fired yesterday three years into a five-year contract by a school that loves to claim the moral high ground. Notre Dame, the school that never before fired a coach before his initial contract expired, fired the first black head coach the school had ever hired in any sport. I'm sure everybody ever associated with Notre Dame will tell you color had nothing to do with letting Willingham go, that it's totally a coincidence, which is like spitting in somebody's face and telling him it's a rain drop.

This is a story about arrogance, about the Neanderthal nature of big-time college football, about a man who has more dignity than the bums who started calling for his head last season or those who plotted his firing for the last couple of weeks.

Not that Notre Dame is the only school operating a football program on complete arrogance, but it's the latest. Nebraska, Florida and Alabama are also among that small group of schools still believing it's their inalienable right to finish in the top 10 every season. They can't accept the fact that they don't own college football anymore, and that they'll never own it again. Not only do they have to share with the Southern Californias and Oklahomas, but with the Louisvilles and Marshalls and Utahs. In fact, the man Notre Dame is coveting right now, Urban Meyer, is the head coach of 11-0 Utah.

USC and Oklahoma are sitting pretty right now, but they'll cycle off just as they cycled on recently after down periods. Nebraska, only a year ago, fired a coach who went 8-3 because they felt he wasn't getting them close enough to a national title. So the good Cornhuskers people went out and hired a Super Bowl coach from the NFL, Bill Callahan, who just led them to 5-6. The Notre Dames and Nebraskas can't stand the sight of upstarts such as Boise State taking a seat at the table they used to control. They want college football to look just like it did in the 1950s and '60s. They want it controlled by a handful of big-conference teams. They want to tie up all the good bowl games. And they certainly do not want anything as modern, as democratic and as merit-based as a playoff. They want to live in Pleasantville as long as possible, and Pleasantville, in case you didn't notice, doesn't include black coaches telling white boys how to block or tackle, which is why there are only two black head coaches in Division I-A.

People at institutions such as Notre Dame don't sit around any more, even off the record, talking about getting rid of a person because he's a certain color. Such a conversation, if proven, would be illegal in this country, and most folks aren't that dumb. Intolerance has increasing subtlety. But the passionate distaste for Willingham in some quarters, including on campus after a loss, had an unmistakable stink to it.

Had Willingham been everything Notre Dame could have wanted? No, not yet. After going 10-3 his first year, he had a lousy second season. He was blown out by USC three times. But did he deserve to continue? Of course, he did. We're talking about a program that yielded one first-round draft pick in the past five years, meaning recruiting had fallen off long before Willingham arrived. They asked him to overhaul the offense, which takes more than a couple of seasons even at the professional level. They asked him to get rid of the knuckleheads who had embarrassed the school under the previous coach, and Willingham did that, too. Now, they say it came down to wins and losses.

When Willingham left Stanford, I winced. The people at Stanford loved Willingham; perhaps they still do. They wanted him there. They thought and demonstrated he was one of them, which did not happen in the main at Notre Dame. He knew he was taking a chance when he left Palo Alto for South Bend. But he felt he owed it to himself to try to win on the biggest stage in college football.

I hope Stanford brings him back. I hope the recruits who grew close to Willingham follow him wherever he goes. It'll be interesting to see how black parents, high school coaches and recruits respond to how Willingham was treated. I received an e-mail last night from the father of a Big Ten lineman, a white player by the way, who had been recruited by Willingham.

It reads in part, "Coach Willingham should not have been fired before his contract expired. Coach Willingham did a great job recruiting my son and really pushed the history of, and the opportunities available at, Notre Dame. In the end it was the lack of participation in a major conference and the off-campus activities available that made the difference. We wish him the best."

Maybe Meyer will come from Utah and, as they like to say in South Bend, wake up the echoes. But given the hype over this guy, he had better be The Goods. Maybe they'll turn to Gruden, who'll come to campus flashing his Super Bowl ring and galvanize the program. Either way, Willingham is better off coaching somewhere he'll be appreciated to the level of his expertise and class. And Notre Dame will hire a coach with the promise of returning the Irish to a preeminent place in college football. That's a place Notre Dame hasn't been in quite a while, and it's a place, given the school's shortsightedness, it won't be seeing anytime soon.

scooper

11-02-2005, 10:56 AM

Wilbon hated ND before Willngham. He'll hate them afterward. He will not give a subjective opinion on them.

hoosiergoody

11-02-2005, 11:02 AM

sterlingice

11-02-2005, 11:05 AM

Oh dear god, this was brough up by Whitlock? No wonder it sounds so stupid. He looks even dumber as the KC Star's "other" guy on the front page because his cynical and stupid columns are always next to perrenial optimist and award winning wordsmith Joe Posnanski.

SI

scooper

11-02-2005, 11:06 AM

Not racist. Unfortunately this is going to make anything that really is racist be less-considered. Pulling the race card to the degree of crying wolf.

My guess is Weis wanted to remove all doubt about his future. ND is stupid in signing a 10-year vs. maybe a 5-year, but again, maybe Weis requested it this way...
He already had a six year deal. This was essentially four years added to that with a raise. Calling it a ten year extension as the media is doing is a bit misleading.

Warhammer

11-02-2005, 11:25 AM

This was not racially motivated. Willingham's first year, I was happy with the 8-0 start, but was worried because they did not look good in getting there. Then, his second season was abysmal. I still thought we would need to give him another year, changing the offense over and all that. However, during Willingham's third year, you saw a team that did not play good football. Fundamentally, they were horrible! So, by the end of the third year, I had had enough of Willingham.

Weis comes in, and with the same players, and Notre Dame becomes a juggernaut. Sure, they lost two games, but each of those games could easily have been a win. They also showed something that they didn't under Willingham. They showed moxie.

Samdari

11-02-2005, 11:44 AM

Oh dear god, this was brough up by Whitlock? No wonder it sounds so stupid.

To be fair, every sports outlet began the Weis vs. Willingham race issue within minutes of the announcement of Weis' extension. Whitlock's next original thought will be his first, but he did not spark this discussion.

dawgfan

11-02-2005, 02:07 PM

Do I think race played a role in this decision? Only in a very tangential way. As others have pointed out, Willingham was never "the guy" for Notre Dame. They wanted Gruden, they were satisfied with O'Leary, then they had to settle for Willingham. I think it's a fair assessment to say that TyWillie never had the kind of enthusiastic support from alums and boosters that Weis enjoyed, starting from day 1. Was that because of Ty being black? Maybe for a few; I think for most he simply was seen as an emergency fall-back candidate.

It was a feel-good story at the time - a black coach hired to the most storied (and certainly most scrutinized) college football program. Willingham has always been a guy perceived as a straight-arrow and he had great student-athlete credentials coming from Stanford. When he was able to start off 8-0 with a number of gritty wins and some luck on the heels of a 5-6 season that cost Davie his job, Ty and the program got a lot of media attention. But it was never quite the frenzy that Weis has had.

For multiple reasons, Weis' arrival from the start generated more buzz in the media and with ND fans than Willingham's. Was it race? Again, maybe for a few, but mostly differing circumstances. While ND didn't get their main target (again) in Urban Meyer, they were very happy with Weis as a candidate, what with his NFL credentials as part of the burgeoning Pats dynasty, his status as ND alum and his feel-good story of the marginal athlete who survived and prospered in the coaching ranks not because of his football exploits (he never played after H.S.) but due to his work ethic and smarts. Add-in his battles with his weight that nearly cost him his life, and you had a media darling. Is that status helped by Weis being white? That's a societal question. I'm not going to discount the possibility that a small portion of the buzz around Weis is due to him not being a minority (would the general public feel as warm and fuzzy about Weis if he were black?) I also don't think it's anywhere close to the main reason either.

Regarding the extension itself, it's lunacy. Regardless of whatever NFL buzz there is around Weis, how can ND justify making Weis the highest paid coach in college football based only on 7 games and one off-season? His recruiting has gone well so far, but he hasn't yet had a full-season to prove his approach to the student-athlete. Maybe Weis proves to be an outstanding college coach that can return ND to the National Championship hunt yearly while graduating 98% of his players and avoiding negative off-field issues with his players. But at this point that's still just speculation on the part of ND. This kind of thing just further inflates the insane inflation of salaries in college football - if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?

RendeR

11-02-2005, 02:14 PM

As someone else mentioned above, the ONLY reason race is involved is if someone brings it into the discussion. If people would stop MAKING race an issue it would stop BEING an issue, period.

scooper

11-02-2005, 02:19 PM

if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?
Maybe we'll soon find out.

ZXTT

11-02-2005, 02:28 PM

Regarding the extension itself, it's lunacy. Regardless of whatever NFL buzz there is around Weis, how can ND justify making Weis the highest paid coach in college football based only on 7 games and one off-season? His recruiting has gone well so far, but he hasn't yet had a full-season to prove his approach to the student-athlete. Maybe Weis proves to be an outstanding college coach that can return ND to the National Championship hunt yearly while graduating 98% of his players and avoiding negative off-field issues with his players. But at this point that's still just speculation on the part of ND. This kind of thing just further inflates the insane inflation of salaries in college football - if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?

Umm, they had to do that to reduce the feeling that Weis would be coaching an NFL team next year. Also, consider the Michael Vick factor - does his play justify his deal? Doesn't matter, because the overall package he brings to his team does.

The easiest things to look at are the race of the coach and record. But there's a heck of lot more than that, things that are more apparent to those on the inside. Charlie Weis is worth bunches to Notre Dame because people like me who barely noticed Willingham coaching them and couldn't pick any other Notre Dame coach since Lou Holtz out of a line-up suddenly want to see them.

Why? Because there's some spark in this situation; for me it could be because I prefer the NFL over college and I want to see if the NFL expertise, work ethic and attention to detail Weis has will push Notre Dame to success. But the bottom line is, I might tune in to a Notre Dame game now. And I'll bet there are plenty of kids out there right now thinking, hmm, maybe Notre Dame's a good place to go. Meanwhile, the reputation of the university overall has probably gone up in the past year. Why? Charlie Weis.

So, arguing about first season records is pointless because that's not really the point. The record certainly will matter if ND doesn't continue to improve over the next few years, but not yet.

dawgfan

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

Umm, they had to do that to reduce the feeling that Weis would be coaching an NFL team next year.

No, they didn't. If the NFL really wants him, they'll cover the buyout regardless of this extension. There was absolutely no good reason for this extension and raise - he already had a 6-year contract, plenty long enough to satisfy recruits that ND was commited to him. There was no need to give him a huge raise after just 7 games of evidence.

If the issue had to do with assisting recruiting by removing the threat other coaches could use of saying Weis will just jump to the NFL soon, there was a much simpler solution - Weis coming out publicly and saying very clearly "I'm not going anywhere."

All of these convenient media stories surrounding Weis - the "dying wish" story (most other coaches do similar things without trumpeting it to the media), the NFL rumors - make me suspicious that Weis is a grandstander, and that he did nothing to discourage this idea of him being a threat to jump to the NFL to jack up his salary.

As to the rest - I reiterate that it's extremely early in his tenure to make proclamations about how he's "turned things around" at Notre Dame. He hasn't even been there a year yet.

Klinglerware

11-02-2005, 02:46 PM

scooper

11-02-2005, 02:51 PM

If the issue had to do with assisting recruiting by removing the threat other coaches could use of saying Weis will just jump to the NFL soon, there was a much simpler solution - Weis coming out publicly and saying very clearly "I'm not going anywhere."
He has said as much on a couple occassions, and his agent said so a couple days before the extension. Recruits were being sold the "Weis is leaving" line left and right by opposing coaches. Now, he can tell them he's staying until he's blue in the face, but action often speaks louder than words. Sure, the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension, but this was the best option available to tell recruits that he'll be there a long time. yes, this was very ealy and there is some risk involved for the university. But the rumors were flying already without even a single opening in the NFL.

and that he did nothing to discourage this idea of him being a threat to jump to the NFL to jack up his salary. No info has come out yet about the buyout in the new contract so you really can't say that.

If the NFL really wants him, they'll cover the buyout regardless of this extension.
Let's not forget this one. It takes two to tango. The NFL can't simply pay the buyout and draft him into the league. Sure, other coaches have gone back on their word. But just as often when a coach says they are staying, they stay. It was no secret the Niners coveted Pete Carroll. Tedford and Ferentz have had their names thrown about as well. They may very well leave someday, but thus far, they are still in college football.

scooper

11-02-2005, 02:54 PM

If ND is going to get any return on it's investment in Weis, they had better give him the tools that will allow him to succeed consistently. Specifically, the key will be the relationship with the admissions office--at schools with selective admissions, the levels of antagonism exhibited by admissions towards the coaching staff's recruits often means the difference between winning and losing programs.

It looks like Weis has racked up quite an impressive list of recruits verbaling to ND. What remains to be seen is whether their borderline recruits will actually be admitted. Throughout the 90s, after ND stopped admitting Prop 48 athletes, I believe that there were a few blue-chippers who signed LOIs that ended up getting rejected by admissions.
Notre Dame doesn't offer scholarships until the players are admitted. There are no borderlines. The guys who have committed have already been accepted.

But your point is well taken on getting what he needs and so far he has. Specifically, he has been given a large budget to attract quality assistants and he has established a solid relationship with the admissions office. For example, a couple athletes are being allowed to enroll early. ND has never done this before. But then again, the admissions director said recent coaches haven't really asked.

dawgfan

11-02-2005, 03:20 PM

Do you see the irony of writing this:

He has said as much on a couple occassions, and his agent said so a couple days before the extension. Recruits were being sold the "Weis is leaving" line left and right by opposing coaches. Now, he can tell them he's staying until he's blue in the face, but action often speaks louder than words. Sure, the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension, but this was the best option available to tell recruits that he'll be there a long time. yes, this was very ealy and there is some risk involved for the university. But the rumors were flying already without even a single opening in the NFL.

...followed shortly by this:

Let's not forget this one. It takes two to tango. The NFL can't simply pay the buyout and draft him into the league. Sure, other coaches have gone back on their word. But just as often when a coach says they are staying, they stay. It was no secret the Niners coveted Pete Carroll. Tedford and Ferentz have had their names thrown about as well. They may very well leave someday, but thus far, they are still in college football.

scooper

11-02-2005, 03:25 PM

I assume you mean this part of it the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension followed by the next part. What I meant was the NFL still has deep pockets and nobody is going to sign a contract without some sort of buyout, so logistically, it is still possible.

That said, I stick by my belief that he will be at ND for a long time. There are family reasons for this as much as anything, considering he said he wants to be there when his son goes through ND (he's currently a seventh grader) and they have a special needs daughter who they don't want to move around anymore and they feel the midwest and at a Catholic university is a good environment to bring her up in.

Solecismic

11-02-2005, 03:26 PM

A couple of points on Weis:

1) He is not a media darling. While people respect that he almost died, it is seen as a weakness in the football world. Many people feel he would already be a head coach in the NFL if not for the problem. Before the surgery and after.

2) In the week leading up to the new contract, there was significant buzz that Weis would leave Notre Dame next month and take a head coaching position in the NFL, perhaps in Houston. There was enough buzz that I think it's possible Weis had an offer on the table (unofficially, of course). I don't know the details of the extension, but the reason for it may well be Weis asking for some sort of guarantee he wouldn't get the Willingham treatment if he lost a few games.

dawgfan

11-02-2005, 03:34 PM

I assume you mean this part of it

No, I meant that you talk about how Weis has said repeatedly he isn't leaving Notre Dame and yet the talk hasn't died down about it, then go on to say how it takes two to tango - the coach has to be willing to be bought out.

My point is that while this extension may lower the Weis to NFL talk some, it won't kill it. Hell, opposing coaches will probably say "Look at all the money Notre Dame is throwing at Weis - he's hot property and NFL teams still have the money to buy him out if they want."

If Weis had done as much to nationally publicize his reported desire to stay at Notre Dame as he did with the "dying wish" story then maybe the issue of the NFL rumors hurting his recruiting wouldn't be such a big deal.

-Mojo Jojo-

11-02-2005, 03:46 PM

As someone else mentioned above, the ONLY reason race is involved is if someone brings it into the discussion. If people would stop MAKING race an issue it would stop BEING an issue, period.

I recall a couple years ago reading about a study that had recently been published where researchers had randomly sent out hundreds of resumes and employment applications to employers. They were all identical in all aspects except the name. Half of them had names that people would tend to identify with black people, the other half with whites. They got a substantially higher response on the "white" applications. Racism in America is not as overt as it used to be. If you want to probe for it, you have to be subtle. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It is. And it's pretty self-serving for white people to pretend it's not.

NoMyths

11-02-2005, 07:33 PM

And it's pretty self-serving for people to pretend it's not.Fixed that for you.

cthomer5000

11-02-2005, 07:35 PM

This will most likely turn ugly. Before it gets that way, here's my simple response:

No, it wasn't racist, it was just stupid.
I haven't read any of the rest of the thread, but i viewed it as almost the opposite. I think it's probably a smart move by Notre Dame, but i think it is at least in part motivated by race. Not so much because he's white, but probably because he's more popular with boosters, etc because he's white. Sort of a side-effect of race coming into play.

BishopMVP

11-02-2005, 08:05 PM

dawgfan

11-02-2005, 08:54 PM

Charlie Weis is a great football coach. You can look at his 5-2 record and say he has only beaten mediocre teams (although I do recall being underdogs against Pitt and Michigan at the time, maybe Purdue), but it's the how and the feeling I get. Tyrone Willingham was not/is not a great coach. Charlie Weis probably has staff members who will be better head coaches than Ty (at least when Cutcliffe was there.)

How and the feeling you get? Pardon me if I find that lacking in terms of evidence. I'm not Ty's biggest fan, but anyone looking objectively at his run at Stanford has to acknowledge that he did a pretty damn good job there. Compare what he did to what Bill Walsh and Denny Green did before him, and what Buddy Teevans did after. Walsh and Green have been very successful head coaches in the NFL, and Ty's record at Stanford matches up very favorably. Teevans isn't such a great coach, and it showed in his poor run following Ty. To say that Weis has staff members that will make better head coaches than Ty is purely speculative.

The contract extension is basically a symbolic gesture for recruits. I highly doubt the buyout clause went up above $3 million for either side. This isn't a guaranteed contract, so I don't understand people saying ND is going to be stuck with 20 million on the hook if he ends up being bad, which he won't be.

Sure it's symbolic, but I'm struggling to see how it does much - he already had a 6-year contract (most coaches get 5 years on their first deal) at plenty of money, and if an NFL team really wants him they won't be terribly concerned by this extension. The best way for Weis to dispel those rumors among recruits is to be emphatic and very public with his declarations that he isn't going anywhere. There was no need to make him the highest paid coach in college.

Oh well, I'll take moronic accusations of racism in exchange for one of the 5 best college coaches.

He's had all of 7 games in his career and he's already one of the 5 best coaches in college? This is precisely the kind of hyperbole that makes people sick of anything having to do with Notre Dame. Maybe we should see how he does after a few complete seasons maybe? Would you have pegged Pete Carroll as one of the 5 best college coaches after his first 7 games? He was 2-5.

MizzouRah

11-02-2005, 08:59 PM

st.cronin

11-02-2005, 09:02 PM

panerd

11-02-2005, 09:22 PM

Oh well, I'll take moronic accusations of racism in exchange for one of the 5 best college coaches.

I'll bite. Here's 10 off the top of my head. Weis (with zero recruiting classes under his belt) is better than 5 of these? I could probably come up with at least 20-30 more. Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrier, Frank Beamer, Bill Snyder, Bob Stoops, Mac Brown, Phil Fulmer, Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, Barry Alverez, Urban Meyer.

panerd

11-02-2005, 09:25 PM

Willingham's reputation pre-Notre Dame wasn't in the same class as Weiss's. (I'm not talking about qualifications, just reputation.) Weiss could have had pretty much any job he wanted, in college or the NFL. That has never been true of Ty.

Any NFL job? Okay. I could have sworn he got passed over by several teams just last season. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he is in college because he didn't have that great a reputation until his success at Notre Dame.

st.cronin

11-02-2005, 09:30 PM

Any NFL job? Okay. I could have sworn he got passed over by several teams just last season. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he is in college because he didn't have that great a reputation until his success at Notre Dame.

You are wrong. He took the ND job weeks before the Super Bowl, so NFL teams didn't have a chance to 'pass over' him. Cranell and he were all the rage last offseason.

BishopMVP

11-03-2005, 01:18 AM

This is mostly personal opinion. But while I'm sure most people think I'm being overly optimistic about Weis, I was getting the same thing this summer before game 1. I remember people predicting a sub-.500 season (Mark May or Lee Corso said they'd start 0-6.) When I said ND had a shot to upset USC, and would be as good in 3-4 years, I remember you and Blade laughing and saying USC would blow them out. If anything, I undersold how good they'd be this year and next.How and the feeling you get? Pardon me if I find that lacking in terms of evidence. I'm not Ty's biggest fan, but anyone looking objectively at his run at Stanford has to acknowledge that he did a pretty damn good job there. Compare what he did to what Bill Walsh and Denny Green did before him, and what Buddy Teevans did after. Walsh and Green have been very successful head coaches in the NFL, and Ty's record at Stanford matches up very favorably. Teevans isn't such a great coach, and it showed in his poor run following Ty. To say that Weis has staff members that will make better head coaches than Ty is purely speculative.7-4-1, 7-5, 5-6, 3-8, 8-4, 5-6, 9-3, 2-9, 4-7, 4-7. (Italics post-Willingham) I really haven't followed Stanford closely so I don't know the particulars, but that doesn't look like a great coach. He had losing seasons 3 of his last 5 years, and if people bring up the argument that Weis is playing with Willingham's players, so was Teevens. And I don't know if I'd term Denny Green a very successful NFL coach ;)

On the staff, I think Haywood will be a very good coach. Cutcliffe did a great job at Ole Miss, and got shafted by the admin there (if he was black, I'm sure we'd have heard more about it.)Sure it's symbolic, but I'm struggling to see how it does much - he already had a 6-year contract (most coaches get 5 years on their first deal) at plenty of money, and if an NFL team really wants him they won't be terribly concerned by this extension. The best way for Weis to dispel those rumors among recruits is to be emphatic and very public with his declarations that he isn't going anywhere. There was no need to make him the highest paid coach in college.He has been denying those rumors every time they come up and they still won't quiet down. He has been emphatic and public with his desire to stay at ND at least until his son graduates. But this extension will do more to silence the rumours than talking until he's blue in the face.He's had all of 7 games in his career and he's already one of the 5 best coaches in college? This is precisely the kind of hyperbole that makes people sick of anything having to do with Notre Dame. Maybe we should see how he does after a few complete seasons maybe? Would you have pegged Pete Carroll as one of the 5 best college coaches after his first 7 games? He was 2-5.It has nothing to do with Notre Dame. I am an ND fan, and a Pats fan too. I was a Charlie Weis fanboy for years before he started coaching at ND. And, no, I wouldn't have put Pete Carroll up there because I saw him ruin my favorite NFL team in person. I still can't believe how well he's done in college.I'll bite. Here's 10 off the top of my head. Weis (with zero recruiting classes under his belt) is better than 5 of these? I could probably come up with at least 20-30 more. Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrier, Frank Beamer, Bill Snyder, Bob Stoops, Mac Brown, Phil Fulmer, Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, Barry Alverez, Urban Meyer.Well, Weis has most of one class, and it's between #2 and #5 behind Texas'. On the list, I'll give you Stoops and Beamer and add Tedford, with Ferentz very close behind. Pete Carroll is winning with superior talent and was badly outcoached against Weis. Plus, a lot of his recruits wouldn't get into ND. But he's still got to be on the list. Spurrier? Great track record at Duke/UF, but for an offensive genius he sure struggled in the NFL. Checking off to a slip screen every time the defense blitzes doesn't quite work at that level. And he got very very lazy his last couple years at Florida, so we'll see if the motivation is there. Snyder wouldn't work at ND, between the schedule and the massive JuCo influx. Mack Brown sure can recruit, but how much of that is just the U Texas machine? And Texas fans have been bitching about that offensive playcalling for years (now the greatness that is Vince Young is overcoming that.) Phil Fulmer? Never work at ND. Bowden and Paterno, not at this point in their careers. Barry Alvarez is very solid, but not quite in Weis' class, and he's retiring next year anyway. Thank god we dodged the bullet that Urban Meyer would have been. Brady Quinn would be running the spread option while Chris Leak would be a 1st-round pick. He has no track record as a head coach, but assuming he can recruit (and early returns are promising, that fistful of rings gets attention) what coach would you pick to gameplan and motivate your team for one game? For me, it's either Stoops, Tedford or Weis.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 01:59 AM

7-4-1, 7-5, 5-6, 3-8, 8-4, 5-6, 9-3, 2-9, 4-7, 4-7. (Italics post-Willingham) I really haven't followed Stanford closely so I don't know the particulars, but that doesn't look like a great coach. He had losing seasons 3 of his last 5 years, and if people bring up the argument that Weis is playing with Willingham's players, so was Teevens. And I don't know if I'd term Denny Green a very successful NFL coach ;)

Green hasn't won a Super Bowl, but he's otherwise been quite successful. Walsh, well, I don't think you can argue his credentials. Check what both of them did at Stanford prior to Ty:

Green ('89-'91):
3-8
5-6
8-4
-----
16-18

Walsh ('92-'94):
10-3
4-7
3-7-1
-----
17-17-1

Compare that with what Ty did: 45-36-1

Prior to Green, Jack Elway went 25-29-2. Prior to Elway, Paul Wiggin went 16-28. My point here is this - Stanford has rarely been a consistently strong team, mainly due to the academic restrictions imposed by the University. When you compare Ty's record to coaches there before him, you realize what a good job he did there in comparison.

The fact that Buddy Teevens didn't do much following Ty is probably less an indictment of Ty's players as it was Buddy's ineptitude.

And, no, I wouldn't have put Pete Carroll up there because I saw him ruin my favorite NFL team in person. I still can't believe how well he's done in college.

So, maybe this should tell you to rely less on your Pats fanboy instincts.

Look, Weis may well prove to be a great college coach, but to call him that after just 7 games is way, way premature. So is making him the highest paid coach in college football.

This extension isn't going to quiet NFL rumors that much; opposing coaches will point out to recruits that Weis is a hot target, witness the extension, and tell them that if an NFL team really wants him, that extension won't deter them from pursuing Weis. The only thing that's going to quiet NFL rumors around Weis is for him to experience an offseason, get publicly wooed by an NFL team or three with an opening and for Weis to turn them down. That, and only that, will be the proof in the pudding.

In the meantime, he's laughing all the way to the bank at how his media fame has made him a rich, rich man.

BishopMVP

11-03-2005, 02:36 AM

So, maybe this should tell you to rely less on your Pats fanboy instincts.What it told me was that even a poor NFL coach was better than at least 90% of college head coaches out there.Look, Weis may well prove to be a great college coach, but to call him that after just 7 games is way, way premature.Well, I agree on that, but hopefully in 3 years my thoughts on ND in this thread will look as prescient as those in the who can beat USC thread do.

scooper

11-03-2005, 07:42 AM

No, I meant that you talk about how Weis has said repeatedly he isn't leaving Notre Dame and yet the talk hasn't died down about it, then go on to say how it takes two to tango - the coach has to be willing to be bought out.

My point is that while this extension may lower the Weis to NFL talk some, it won't kill it. Hell, opposing coaches will probably say "Look at all the money Notre Dame is throwing at Weis - he's hot property and NFL teams still have the money to buy him out if they want."

If Weis had done as much to nationally publicize his reported desire to stay at Notre Dame as he did with the "dying wish" story then maybe the issue of the NFL rumors hurting his recruiting wouldn't be such a big deal.1. If people want to talk about Weis to the NFL, nobody is going to kill that talk. You admit above that this lowers the talk. Then this move has made a difference. Especially as it relates to recruiting. Opposing coaches are going to talk no matter what. But at least they've done something against that.

2. Weis has mentioned in a couple press conferences his desire to stay at ND for at least 10 years. He specifically mentioned his desire to be there with his son and the benefits of South Bend for his daughter. He told Sean Salisbury before the USC game that he is in South Bend to stay and the NFL missed their chance. Last week his agent said in the press that he has his dream job and reitterated that the NFL missed their chance. What more does he have to do to "nationally publicize his reported desire to stay at Notre Dame?" He shouldn't have to answer that question every day.

3. Weis did nothing to perpetuate the "dying wish" story. It was the family of the boy who went to the press. If you actually saw or listened to the presser when he was asked about it, you would have seen how uncomfortable he was to discuss it. He handled it very humbly. It's not his fault that the media ran with it the way they did.

4. Just a reminder that the Weis to the NFL talk was stirred up by a Michigan grad whose only resource was the fact of the buyout. He didn't speak to Weis, his agent or any NFL sources. He cited nothing but the buyout and from that he said Weis "might" leave. With success, this is something Weis and ND are going to have to fight. That is exactly what they were doing with the extension.

5. I don't see how I contradicted myself by saying it takes two to tango. It does. My point is no matter how much the NFL comes up with, he still has to say yes. It's not as simple as paying the buyout and boom he's an NFL coach. At this point, he's making more than most NFL coaches, anyway.

RendeR

11-03-2005, 09:31 AM

I recall a couple years ago reading about a study that had recently been published where researchers had randomly sent out hundreds of resumes and employment applications to employers. They were all identical in all aspects except the name. Half of them had names that people would tend to identify with black people, the other half with whites. They got a substantially higher response on the "white" applications. Racism in America is not as overt as it used to be. If you want to probe for it, you have to be subtle. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It is. And it's pretty self-serving for white people to pretend it's not.Nowhere in my statement did I say it didn't exist. What I said was that if people stop making it an issue and bringing it up in every situation that doesn't go the way they think it should, then it would die as an issue, and I truly believe that once it dies as an issue it WILL in fact die in reality.

Unfortunately, "peoples is stupid" and far too many hate mongering human beings simply can't let go of rascism on all sides. Sadly I think they cling to that because they haven't found anything else to give themselves self worth with, so they get attention and a sense of value by screaming "Racism".

albionmoonlight

11-03-2005, 10:09 AM

I recall a couple years ago reading about a study that had recently been published where researchers had randomly sent out hundreds of resumes and employment applications to employers. They were all identical in all aspects except the name. Half of them had names that people would tend to identify with black people, the other half with whites. They got a substantially higher response on the "white" applications. Racism in America is not as overt as it used to be. If you want to probe for it, you have to be subtle. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It is. And it's pretty self-serving for white people to pretend it's not.
I heard of that study, and always wondered what the "White" and "Black" names were. For a name to be known as a "Black" name, it has to be different. And employers don't like different. If they were comparing Johns and Marys to distinctive names, I can see the employers going for the more conservative choices and not being motivated by race.

If, however, employers were picking "White" names like Moon Child over "Black" names like Tyrone, then I will concede that there may be more at play than wanting people not to be different in any way.

waltwal

11-03-2005, 10:10 AM

there is too much focus on weis's success on the field when looking at his 10 year contract.

here is what i strongly believe took place.

he came in and had a truly p
ositive effect on everyone he came into contact with. the administration, players and alumni were all favorably impressed. next he has impressed everyone with his product on the field. i remember listening to the espn college analysts for the most part predicting nd would be 2-5,3-4 at this point in the season.

there was a highly publicized meeting with the young cancer patient that made weis look like one hell of a good person. he is a notre dame grad and don't think that doesn't have some effect on the people who make decisions.
take a look at rivals.com (recruiting service). notre dame has the makings of a recruiting class that could be the best in the nation and compares very favorably to the type of class usc has had over the past 3 years.

why is it a surprise that a group of decision makers sit around a table and agree that this is the guy that is a perfect fit for the university. so it makes perfect sense to me that when you find the perfect fit that you might then assume that others (pros and other top programs) will feel the same way. so you make a slightly risky decision to lock the guy up for the remainder of his coaching life by making it clear to him that he is your man.

i believe notre dame found the right guy and did the right thing. i also believe every other program in the country would do the same thing when it finds the perfect fit. the problem is that such a thing rarely happens. the perfect fit is much more than a coach who goes to a bowl game and wins 10 games every year. just ask frank solich.

ISiddiqui

11-03-2005, 12:16 PM

i believe notre dame found the right guy and did the right thing.
How does it KNOW after 7 games if they found their "right guy". I'd at least give it 2 years before that major decision.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 12:26 PM

What it told me was that even a poor NFL coach was better than at least 90% of college head coaches out there.

Dave Wannstadt anyone? And hey, John Robinson really tore things up at USC after returning from the NFL.

DanGarion

11-03-2005, 12:32 PM

Dave Wannstadt anyone? And hey, John Robinson really tore things up at USC after returning from the NFL.
Please don't remind me of John's 2nd term at USC.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 12:40 PM

1. If people want to talk about Weis to the NFL, nobody is going to kill that talk. You admit above that this lowers the talk. Then this move has made a difference. Especially as it relates to recruiting. Opposing coaches are going to talk no matter what. But at least they've done something against that.

It slows it a bit, but opposing coaches will continue to play up the idea that Weis is hot property which the extension proves, and that if the NFL really wants him they won't be deterred by the money. The only thing that will really quiet this kind of talk is for Weis to go through an offseason, have his name bandied about by NFL teams with openings, and for Weis to go public during this time to say "no" and actually stick at Notre Dame.

2. Weis has mentioned in a couple press conferences his desire to stay at ND for at least 10 years. He specifically mentioned his desire to be there with his son and the benefits of South Bend for his daughter. He told Sean Salisbury before the USC game that he is in South Bend to stay and the NFL missed their chance. Last week his agent said in the press that he has his dream job and reitterated that the NFL missed their chance. What more does he have to do to "nationally publicize his reported desire to stay at Notre Dame?" He shouldn't have to answer that question every day.

When coaches have a particular media buzz about these things they often hold a specific press conference to address the issue rather than commenting on it in their normal weekly pressers. If there was a growing NFL "buzz" surrounding him the last couple of weeks, he could've done this.

3. Weis did nothing to perpetuate the "dying wish" story. It was the family of the boy who went to the press. If you actually saw or listened to the presser when he was asked about it, you would have seen how uncomfortable he was to discuss it. He handled it very humbly. It's not his fault that the media ran with it the way they did.

If you insist. There is a pattern of these kinds of stories glorifying Weis since he's been at Notre Dame that make me suspicious. The story about him taking his son into USC's locker room after the game to show him good sportsmanship falls right in line with this media deification of Weis.

4. Just a reminder that the Weis to the NFL talk was stirred up by a Michigan grad whose only resource was the fact of the buyout. He didn't speak to Weis, his agent or any NFL sources. He cited nothing but the buyout and from that he said Weis "might" leave. With success, this is something Weis and ND are going to have to fight. That is exactly what they were doing with the extension.

Really? There is a single source for the Weis to the NFL talk? You really believe that? The man has a long history in the NFL, he's all over the media ever since taking over at Notre Dame, and the talk about him returning to the NFL has a single source? I call bullshit.

Let's be clear here - all the extension does is make Weis the highest paid coach in college football, and means that an NFL club will have to shell out a bit more money to take him away from Notre Dame. It certainly won't prevent Weis from leaving if he wants to and if an NFL team wants him.

5. I don't see how I contradicted myself by saying it takes two to tango. It does. My point is no matter how much the NFL comes up with, he still has to say yes. It's not as simple as paying the buyout and boom he's an NFL coach. At this point, he's making more than most NFL coaches, anyway.

My point is that if Weis wants to go, he'll go - the extension and the buyout and all that are just window-dressing and ways for Weis to get more rich in the interim. It might - might - dim the talk for a bit, but I'll be very surprised if his name isn't still bandied about this NFL off-season as teams are looking for coaches. Until Weis goes trhough some off-seasons where his name is mentioned around the NFL for openings and he still stays at Notre Dame, those rumors will continue to circulate. And even then, they'll never compleletly die down.

scooper

11-03-2005, 01:09 PM

The only thing that will really quiet this kind of talk is for Weis to go through an offseason, have his name bandied about by NFL teams with openings, and for Weis to go public during this time to say "no" and actually stick at Notre Dame.
Well, it's not the offseason yet but recruiting is going on now. If it comes up again in the offseason, he'll have his chance to say no.

When coaches have a particular media buzz about these things they often hold a specific press conference to address the issue rather than commenting on it in their normal weekly pressers. If there was a growing NFL "buzz" surrounding him the last couple of weeks, he could've done this.
Granted, it was part of the extension circus, but they did hold a presser at which this was addressed.

If you insist. There is a pattern of these kinds of stories glorifying Weis since he's been at Notre Dame that make me suspicious. The story about him taking his son into USC's locker room after the game to show him good sportsmanship falls right in line with this media deification of Weis.
There is such a thing as sincerity. It does exist. I guess he handled the Montana-pass right situation the same way you or I would. The fact that it got a lot of media attention does have a lot to do with his position. I'll admit that. But he didn't ask for it. Don't worry, when things are negative, he'll get just as much attention. It's a high profile job. The cameras are always on. God forbid he do things the right way and risk looking good in front of the press. As for the lockerroom thing, maybe it was a show. You and I will never know the true intentions. But on the surface, it was a sportsman-like thing to do.

Really? There is a single source for the Weis to the NFL talk? You really believe that? The man has a long history in the NFL, he's all over the media ever since taking over at Notre Dame, and the talk about him returning to the NFL has a single source? I call bullshit.

Yes. One source. Go ahead and call BS. There was one article discussing his buyout and the probability of him leaving based on that. The discussion on the talk shows stemmed from that. If you can find another source and cite it, go ahead.

all the extension does is make Weis the highest paid coach in college football, and means that an NFL club will have to shell out a bit more money to take him away from Notre Dame. It certainly won't prevent Weis from leaving if he wants to and if an NFL team wants him.

If he wants to being the key. Line up the evidence on both sides. On one side you have what he has said, what his agent has said, and a new contract. On the other side, you have a Michigan grad who interviewed nobody and a bunch of internet hacks.

Sure, he may leave some day. Nobody has a crystal ball to say he won't. But the evidence sure seems to support his staying longer than most ND haters seem to want him to.

My point is that if Weis wants to go, he'll go - the extension and the buyout and all that are just window-dressing and ways for Weis to get more rich in the interim. It might - might - dim the talk for a bit, but I'll be very surprised if his name isn't still bandied about this NFL off-season as teams are looking for coaches. Until Weis goes trhough some off-seasons where his name is mentioned around the NFL for openings and he still stays at Notre Dame, those rumors will continue to circulate. And even then, they'll never compleletly die down.
Well then, when the offseason comes, we'll know. But short term, he seems to have made his intentions known. You don't have to take the man at his word. But many will.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 01:13 PM

Yes. One source. Go ahead and call BS. There was one article discussing his buyout and the probability of him leaving based on that. The discussion on the talk shows stemmed from that. If you can find another source and cite it, go ahead.

OK, I call BS. This guy may be the first person to publicly stir the pot, but do you really think that nobody in the NFL has been talking about Weis as a potential candidate? Or do you think that Notre Dame AD White is so gullible that he put together this ridiculous extension because of a single source with little credibility?

ISiddiqui

11-03-2005, 01:16 PM

scooper

11-03-2005, 01:20 PM

OK, I call BS. This guy may be the first person to publicly stir the pot, but do you really think that nobody in the NFL has been talking about Weis as a potential candidate? Or do you think that Notre Dame AD White is so gullible that he put together this ridiculous extension because of a single source with little credibility?
Someone from the NFL may very well have contacted Kevin White. In fact, I'd guess there was a very good chance they have. If so, doesn't that lend more credence to the extension in the first place?

If that has happened, though, it was not made its way to the public. The point remains, publically, there still been once source for the rumors. I'm talking printed or publically discussed sources-ammunition for opposing coaches or stories told to recruits. Believe me, if other stories were out there, the ND boards would have been all over them. They don't miss much. You take one of the largest fan bases in all of sports. You'd think somebody would have heard something if there were stories beside Schefter's.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 01:52 PM

Someone from the NFL may very well have contacted Kevin White. In fact, I'd guess there was a very good chance they have. If so, doesn't that lend more credence to the extension in the first place?

Not really. Have we not already agreed that if the NFL really wants Weis, it doesn't matter that much what Notre Dame is paying him and what the buyout is? And rumors about him and the NFL won't really go away completely (unless he turns out to be a flop). Opposing coaches will continue to talk him up as a hot NFL prospect to potential recruits regardless of the extension.

All this extension does is jack up the price of college coaches that much more and make Weis that much richer. Hell, at least when Neuheisel got that overpriced $1M contract from Washington when he bolted from Colorado he had a 4-year track record...

rkmsuf

11-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Isn't the NBC contract up in the near future?

BishopMVP

11-03-2005, 01:54 PM

Dave Wannstadt anyone? And hey, John Robinson really tore things up at USC after returning from the NFL.You said yourself that Pete Carroll was 2-5 his first 7 games, so let's give Wannstedt a little more time. Everyone was ragging on Bill Callahan last year, but now there seems to be some light at the end of that tunnel. Not everyone can turn a program around immediately like Charlie can ;) John Robinson and Bill Walsh struggled at the end of their careers, but each did much much better in their primes.

College coaches who jumped to the NFL lately - Nick Saban will probably do well, he's very good. Butch Davis, amazing college coach, NFL tore him apart. Spurrier, same thing. I'll leave Mariucci and Riley out because they didn't have a great college track record before entering the NFL. If Mike Martz was a college coach, he would be getting more buzz than Bobby Petrino or Urban Meyer for his offensive prowess.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 01:58 PM

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:07 PM

Not really. Have we not already agreed that if the NFL really wants Weis, it doesn't matter that much what Notre Dame is paying him and what the buyout is? And rumors about him and the NFL won't really go away completely (unless he turns out to be a flop). Opposing coaches will continue to talk him up as a hot NFL prospect to potential recruits regardless of the extension.

All this extension does is jack up the price of college coaches that much more and make Weis that much richer. Hell, at least when Neuheisel got that overpriced $1M contract from Washington when he bolted from Colorado he had a 4-year track record...
Sure opposing coaches will continue to talk him up, but at least ND has more ammunition to fight it with. I don't understand why it bothers other fans. If it was a dumb move on ND's part, shouldn't that please you?

I'll admit, it's too early to tell if it's a good move or not. But the fact is, ND can afford it if they are winning. It's like any investment. Risky, but the payoff could be huge.

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:07 PM

Isn't the NBC contract up in the near future?
dola

No. It's been extended through 2010.

rkmsuf

11-03-2005, 02:08 PM

dola

No. It's been extended through 2010.

nevermind. carry on.

Raiders Army

11-03-2005, 02:10 PM

Mike Tice would make a great recruiter. "Look what he let the Vikings do..."

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:11 PM

If Wanny turns things around at Pitt, and if someone like Mike Tice can go into the college ranks and kick butt, then maybe I'll be more in line with this idea that NFL guys are automatically better than 90% of college coaches out there.

I'm with you on this one. There's no guarantee that NFL coaches will succeed. Wanny sucks anywhere. I'm guessing Tice would as well.

Some nfl failures succeed in college. But I'd say the trend is coaches are good or bad if they are in the pros, college or pee wee.

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:11 PM

Mike Tice would make a great recruiter. "Look what he let the Vikings do..."
He really should be in Colorado, then. :D

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 02:13 PM

Sure opposing coaches will continue to talk him up, but at least ND has more ammunition to fight it with. I don't understand why it bothers other fans. If it was a dumb move on ND's part, shouldn't that please you?

Notre Dame can afford it, so I have no hopes that this could bite them in the ass financially. Where it hurts the game is by furthering the coaching salary spiral upward. The problem I have with it is it sets the coaching pay scale that much more out of whack - if a guy with just 7 games of head coaching experience is now the highest paid coach in college, what happens to the salaries of guys like Pete Carroll, Bob Stoops, Bobby Bowden, Jim Tressell, Steve Spurrier - you know, guys that have actually proven something as head coaches in college. What about Jeff Tedford, who has done far more with less than any coach in a long time?

Had Notre Dame simply extended the contract, bumped his pay a little bit and radically raised the buyout provisions, I wouldn't object so much (any extension and raise at this point in his career I find rather dubious, but whatever).

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:26 PM

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was a socialist endeavor and ND was supposed to worry about other schools' coaches.

They're Notre Dame. They have the money. They want Charlie Weis to be there for ten years. You mention more proven coaches. Well, obviously they have seen what they want out of him. And that goes beyond simply the 5-2 record. The play has improved. The recruiting has improved (immensly) the morale has improved, discipline has improved, heck...donations have improved. There are things going on that a casual observer/fan of other programs may not see if all they look at is 8-0 vs. 5-2.

Yes, over time those other coaches are more proven as college head coaches than Weis. But he doesn't have to prove it to you. He has to prove it to Notre Dame. It's not your money. It's not ESPN's money. Some of it is NBC's, and I guarantee this doesn't happen without their blessing. College football is a big business. With big money.

What happened when Florida came sniffing around Stoops? Did he say "no interest" and everybody moved on? No. He got the biggest contract in college football. Oklahoma felt he was worth it. Well, now Notre Dame feels that way about Weis.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 02:46 PM

Of course Notre Dame can do whatever they want. That doesn't mean fans of other teams can't bitch about them lavishing big money on a guy with a very slim track record.

Bob Stoops had a track record when Florida came after him. Weis has just a fraction of that track record, and yet he's now worth being paid more than any other coach in the country? People around the game bitched when Washington poached Neuheisel from Colorado for $1M (back when that was close to the top in terms of yearly salary), but at least he had 4 years of track record to go by.

Notre Dame has huge coffers, and they can afford to overspend if they want. Doesn't mean I can't call them stupid for doing so and futher skewering the already out-of-whack finances of the game. Kind of like when people bitch about Steinbrenner and his $200M+ Yankee payrolls - he can afford it, but the rest of the league doesn't have to be happy about it.

scooper

11-03-2005, 02:54 PM

That's fine. Don't be happy about it. It's sports. Everybody has their good guys and bad guys. You're allowed to bitch. But we're allowed to be excited about it and think we finally have "our guy."

Honestly, it doesn't upset me if you or anybody else thinks it was a bad move. I enjoy a good college football discussion/argument.

I do, however, have a problem with the initial suggestion (not from anybody on this board) that this was a racist move. That's an awfully bad accusation that really had no grounds.

For the record, I never had a problem with UW paying Neuheisel. He was one of the big names in coaching and Washington was aiming high, as they should have considering their place in college football throughout the nineties. Sometimes, you have to think big to be big.

BishopMVP

11-03-2005, 03:04 PM

If Wanny turns things around at Pitt, and if someone like Mike Tice can go into the college ranks and kick butt, then maybe I'll be more in line with this idea that NFL guys are automatically better than 90% of college coaches out there.Well, 90% of NFL Coaches are better than 90% of college coaches... Mike Tice surely falls into the 10%, along with guys like Dick Jauron and Mike Sherman.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 03:06 PM

I do, however, have a problem with the initial suggestion (not from anybody on this board) that this was a racist move. That's an awfully bad accusation that really had no grounds.

Racist is a word that carries significant weight in this society, and whether correct or not it is used to describe a wide variety of behavior. In this day and age, there is very little behavior comperable to the overt racism that was prevalent in this country up through the civil rights movement.

That doesn't mean that race still isn't a factor today. We can argue 'till we're blue in the face about why it's still a factor, but I think it's pretty naive to say it's not a factor.

I think it's clear the Weis extension isn't a product of overt racism. In fact, I think any effects of race in the situation are extremely subtle. The most overt reasons for the extension have everything to do with already documented differences in the Willingham situation and the Weis situation - the NFL talk surrounding Weis that wasn't happening with Willingham, the fact that Weis was, while a 2nd choice, still a very popular and heavily supported choice by Notre Dame, while Willingham was relatively muted emergency choice.

Still, the willingness of Notre Dame to throw huge money at Weis after just 7 games despite that record being arguably not as impressive as what Willingham had accomplished after his first 7 games and Willingham not getting any kind of extension or raise is justification for raised eyebrows and for some to ponder whether race was a factor.

Asking the question "Was race a factor" allows a debate where the facts of the differences in Weis and Willingham's situations other than race can be presented, and is different than stating "Race must've been a factor". I'm not going to defend Whitlock for saying that race is the reason for the difference, but it's not unreasonable to pose the question before shooting it down with evidence to the contrary.

dawgfan

11-03-2005, 03:08 PM

Well, 90% of NFL Coaches are better than 90% of college coaches... Mike Tice surely falls into the 10%, along with guys like Dick Jauron and Mike Sherman.

Maybe. I think your percentages are high, but I would agree with the idea that most NFL coaches are better than most college coaches.

scooper

11-03-2005, 03:13 PM

Yeah, I agree that it opens the door to ask that question. Most writers who have opined on the subject have correctly answered "no." But sure, there's reason to ask it. That's the world we live in.