General Motors laying off 30k employee's/Rant inside

[Ragone]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10138507/



Now, I'm not going to try and be political here.. since, while i am a member of the Uaw(Ford).. I don't necessarily agree with their politics. That being said, I have read threads over the past few days(not just here mind you) about people wanting to buy cars.. and everything being suggested was "Toyota/Honda/Mazda".. why.. because they aren't american made, So while you are helping out some people, you are hurting others.. which i guess makes it kind of a double edged sword.. but i digress

News flash, over 50% of Toyota's/Honda's that are sold in the us ARE MADE IN THE US..

2nd News Flash, Ford owns Mazda.. (whoops)

Now, don't read this as a sales pitch, because i'm not out to change anyone's mind.. as people are entitled to their own opinions, I just wanted to knock down some common misconceptions i have repeatedly heard. People bitch and moan daily about the economy being poor, and why the goverment isn't doing anything to help.. Yet drive around Toyota's :P

[GrantDawg]

Ummmmm...what?

[Flasch186]

according to the Republicans the economy is just fine. That is political sorry.

[stevew]

If the automaker could actually break the union, I wonder if cars would even get cheaper. Probaly not.

[SirFozzie]

Patriotism comes a weak 2nd place to a well-designed, safe car. Sorry.

[Crapshoot]

Toyota's are better, cheaper and more efficient cars. American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that. As for the car market at large, GM's headed to bankruptcy sooner or later anyway - I'd gladly take 2 to 1 odds on it right now. :D

[Butter]

If GM and Ford would make some reliable cars, maybe their sales wouldn't be so poor. There is a reason that Hondas and Toyotas are being suggested. I have driven or owned 3 American cars, all of whom pretty much passed the point of being reliable after around 100,000 miles, even after having $2k or more poured into them. My Toyota that I drive to work every day, on the other hand, is in the shop right now for the first time in 7 years, with nearly 150k miles on it.

[Tekneek]

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.

[Chubby]

Patriotism comes a weak 2nd place to a well-designed, safe car. Sorry.
exactly

[Ksyrup]

Half my family is (or was, until the last few years) in the auto industry in Detroit, so I hear the same things all the time. The fact of the matter is, make a better product and more people will buy it. Yes, a lot of Toyotas and Hondas are made in the US. But I don't necessarily have a problem with the assembly line workers - it's the designs, features, safety specs, etc., that are lacking, IMO. Are quality issues necessarily confined to the hourly wage people putting the cars together? I don't think so. That is a corporate issue.

As far as the Mazda-Ford thing, Ford owns about a third of Mazda, so it's not like they have complete control and its just like they are a brand of Ford like Mercury. It's not that way at all.

They may very well be making better and more appealing cars. But its going to take time. I'll admit - when I was looking for a luxury car back in May, I only seriously looked at Acura, Lexus, Inifiniti, and Audi. And when we bought my wife's minivan, it was Odyssey or bust. Just the way it is.

[Tekneek]

American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that.

I don't see that as the problem. It may be part of the problem, but it isn't the biggest problem. They need some executives who have a good feel for the future. They are always trying to put all their eggs into past trends, with seemingly no real idea of what the market is going to want next year. That would have absolutely nothing to do with guys on the assembly line and everything to do with stupid stuffed shirts in the boardroom who are just trying to milk out big dollars before the house of cards collapses.

[GrantDawg]

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.
Agreed. High unionized wages and benefits probably don't help, but it was the guys in the suits that are running GM into the ground (and are probably getting raises while they do it!).

[Anthony]

i agree with the behind the trends. according to the American Auto industry, they won't be able to roll out cars as energy efficient as Japan's cars till about 2010, 2012. why so long? spend more money on researching better fuel economy, deemphasize gas guzzling SUVs as the main source of revenue and invest in alternative fuel research. and do it quickly. they should have been working on more efficient cars once gas prices hit the $2 mark and tried to have been ahead of the curve.

also, while there are a lot of people living in the US, is there really a need for so many cars to get made each year? every citizen doesn't need a car. i mean, how often do we all buy cars? once every 8-10 years, if that. there are just so many different kinds of cars that are so similar, and so many get made.

[Kodos]

Sorry. Hondas and Toyotas are consisently among the best-rated cars in Consumer Reports. GM cars are consistently among the worst.

Easy choice.

[stevew]

Toyota's are better, cheaper and more efficient cars. American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that. As for the car market at large, GM's headed to bankruptcy sooner or later anyway - I'd gladly take 2 to 1 odds on it right now. :D
Yeah, I'm not saying to pay them shit, but like 20 bucks an hour is more than adequate compensation. I read somewhere that like 2-4 thousand dollars of each GM cars cost was essentially to pay health care expenses for a former employee/current employee.

Too bad its totally unrealistic for someone to start a new car company, I'm sure you could make similar cars to GM, sell them for 5K less, and make more of a profit on them than they do currently.

[KeyserSoze]

The same old problems everywhere, everytime. If the chief makes a mistake, the common people paid the bill.

I can undestand that 30k could be fired. It's a sad sad thing. But I can't understand that the managers that have put GM in a terrible situation can had millions in the bank just for his mismanagement.

I´ve no problem with Mr. Gates. He makes billions to Microsoft, so he can make half the billions of Microsoft, but I really had a very bad feeling about managers that get rich doing a terrible job.

[Ksyrup]

i mean, how often do we all buy cars? once every 8-10 years, if that. there are just so many different kinds of cars that are so similar, and so many get made.
Perhaps there are stats on this kind of thing, but I think you are way off on that number. Especially if you include new car leases. For every person who sits on a 225K mile, 12-year old car, there are many people who either lease a new car every 2-3 years, or who trade in cars they buy every 4-6 years. My wife and I have gotten rid of 3 cars we purchased - her Saturn, which we kept for 6 years, my Civic, which we kept for 5 years, and my 626, which we kept for just under 5 years. My father-in-law has had 4 different cars in the last 8 years.

I expect that we'll keep her Odyssey beyond April 2007, which will be 5 years, but I also expect that if we can afford it, w'll probably look to upgrade it to a new model that has leather seats, a built-in DVD player, XM radio, and generally is safer and, well, "newer."

[Tekneek]

I´ve no problem with Mr. Gates. He makes billions to Microsoft, so he can make half the billions of Microsoft, but I really had a very bad feeling about managers that get rich doing a terrible job.

You put Good Ol' Boys (tm) on the Board, who are then willing to take care of Good Ol' Boys (tm) in the Executive ranks. A lot of Boards really fail to act independently of the company's officers these days, which (IMO) defeats the purpose.

[Apathetic Lurker]

If GM and Ford would make some reliable cars, maybe their sales wouldn't be so poor. There is a reason that Hondas and Toyotas are being suggested. I have driven or owned 3 American cars, all of whom pretty much passed the point of being reliable after around 100,000 miles, even after having $2k or more poured into them. My Toyota that I drive to work every day, on the other hand, is in the shop right now for the first time in 7 years, with nearly 150k miles on it.

Hmmm, I dont know about this. My first Saturn(1995) went to 135K before being crunched by a ford escort going 70 into my parked car. My 2nd Saturn(1994) is now at 239K and still going strong with 1 starter replaced, reg oil changes and brake work done around every 40k miles and of course tires. Saturn is part of GM isn't it? Not sure about the last statement as I have no need for a new car being perfectly happy with my 94 Saturn and my 1985 Marquis.

[GrantDawg]

Hmmm, I dont know about this. My first Saturn(1995) went to 135K before being crunched by a ford escort going 70 into my parked car. My 2nd Saturn(1994) is now at 239K and still going strong with 1 starter replaced, reg oil changes and brake work done around every 40k miles and of course tires. Saturn is part of GM isn't it?

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

[duckman]

There are other underlying circumstances in why some of these plants are being closed. Fro example, GM has been wanting to close the plant here in Oklahoma for some time now after a squabble over back taxes. Oklahoma City gave them five years of tax incentives for putting a plant here only to demand they pay those taxes with penalties and interest once the five years up. It upset the GM execs so much that they've been looking for an excuse to close the plant permanently. So it's not entirely because of cost cutting that they are closing these plants down.

It actually hurt our relations with business owners looking to bring industry to Oklahoma.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Another prime example of the de-industrialization of America.

[Bee]

So, if I understand this correctly...

Over half of Toyotas and Hondas sold in the US are made in the US...

One of the plants being closed by GM is in Canada...

But buying a Toyota instead of a GM is some kind of major impact on US economy and is causing the collapse of the US automotive industry?

[Crapshoot]

Another prime example of the de-industrialization of America.

So ? The future is in the service industries anyway. De-industrialization is hardly a bad thing per se.

[Tekneek]

So ? The future is in the service industries anyway. De-industrialization is hardly a bad thing per se.

Unless a day comes when we need to be able to manufacture vehicles for our own defense. The service industry will do little to help this nation stand on its own feet.

[Klinglerware]

Unless a day comes when we need to be able to manufacture vehicles for our own defense. The service industry will do little to help this nation stand on its own feet.

Well, not if you believe Donald Rumsfeld. I believe that he is very sympathetic to Toffler third-wave ideas applied to warfare (i.e., the wars of the future will bear little resemblance to wars of the past). According to the theory, wars won't be as mechanized--so a heavy industrial base won't be as necessary to war-fighting capacity.

Of course, Rumsfeld's attempts to transform US military doctrine overnight has met with mixed results in Iraq. While I'm not as gung-ho about a third-wave transformation as Rumsfeld is, I do think the ideas are interesting. I'm just not sure (a) how long such a transformation would take and (b) if this is applicable to insurgent warfare...

[Glengoyne]

according to the Republicans the economy is just fine. That is political sorry.
Not sure if this was mentioned, as I have only read as far as Flasch's post, but the Republican spin on this is that Health Care costs and therefore the Unions driving those benefit requirements that is causing this problem in a generally healthy economy.

[jeff061]

I own a Wrangler and am planning on getting a new Mustang next year. They are cars I want to own and drive, the fact they are American is a coincidence(though it is not lost on me). Maybe when I'm older I'll put safer and reliable over the fun factor.

So in my case safety comes a weak second before fun ;).

[RendeR]

If any of you truly believe there is a fundemental difference in quality in ANY car maker today you are foolish and misinformed.

There is a distinct difference in cost and services from different manufacturers, however the cars themselves are damn near identical across the board today under the sheetmetal (and in far too many cases including the sheetmetal).

What most people fail to recognize is that Those good ol' American cars they are bashing and passing up for a "foreign" machine are in fact the same exact machine with different labeling and options. 6 of Gm's top selling cars are simply japanese designed automobiles with new sheetmetal and GM tags.

Think people. There really isn't much difference anywhere along the line anymore. The so-called "quality" is a sham, since you're driving the same damn car be it mazda or Ford, or Toyota and Pontiac.

Its really tiring listening to people bad mouth the quality of American manufacturer's vehicles when the truth is there is no difference.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

Sounds like a Hyundai I had years ago.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Its really tiring listening to people bad mouth the quality of American manufacturer's vehicles when the truth is there is no difference.

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right? :rolleyes:

[Galaxy]

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right? :rolleyes:

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.

[GrantDawg]

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right? :rolleyes:
They must be owned by the foriegn interest. The Triad are trying to destroy the Amercian car industry. IT IS ALL A CONSPIRACY! PLEASE IGNORE FACTS!!!

[GrantDawg]

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.
And some are better at putting them togather to make a quality product that people want. GM has been terrible at for many years now.

[Ksyrup]

Sorry, I'll put the opinions of virtually everyone I know who has had personal experience with American cars up against your claims that there is no difference between them and foreign cars. Hell, my dad used to work for Ford and he won't touch one.

While I'm sensitive to the fact that American jobs may be lost, the fact of the matter is, I view this like Wal-Mart running local grocery and drug stores out of business - find a better business model, or find another way to earn a living.

[stevew]

They took 'r Jobs!

[Galaxy]

And some are better at putting them togather to make a quality product that people want. GM has been terrible at for many years now.

I agree, the trend is pretty new. I really haven't seen American companies follow suit too much.

[Ksyrup]

They took 'r Jobs!
:)

[Shepp]

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.

Thats the tragedy here, the people who are being laid off are just working folks trying to make a living. Most of the people who made the the decisions that led to this are still making their over inflated saleries or have moved on with large golden parachutes. :(

[GrantDawg]

Let me say this...I'm not bashing all American cars. There are some out there that are likable and buyable. Some companies are doing a better job at making products people want (Ford and Dodge have some nice products), but GM seems to be behind the 8-ball on this, and is the worst in hoping their past reputation as the "better quality" American automaker would sustain them. Besides the Hummer, I can't think of another GM "win" in recent history, and on some level models, they seem to be falling behind faster than they could ever hope to catch up. I can't think of a single GM product I woud like to own over any comparable Toyota product.

[sabotai]

Sounds like a Hyundai I had years ago.
Sounds like the Hyundai I have now...

[JonInMiddleGA]

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.

But that is not the same as "they all use the technology, platforms, and parts in the same way and to the same standards of performance."

[Ksyrup]

The Chrysler 300 is a pretty good car, and was recognized as such by Motor Trend last year.

[Tekneek]

Sounds like the Hyundai I have now...

I have one with about 120k on it and has never required more than the usual routine maintenance. We've put brakes on it, and replaced a clutch, and otherwise nothing more than oil changes and tuneups.

[GrantDawg]

The Chrysler 300 is a pretty good car, and was recognized as such by Motor Trend last year.
But I would rather have an Avalon or a Lexus.

[jeff061]

My mother has an Avalon. Must be at 110,000 miles by now, hasn't needed anything but new break pads. Didn't need those until a couple years ago. Stepmother has a Lexus, to new to see whats going on with that.

I dislike them both. Not my kind of car at all.

[MrBigglesworth]

I drive a Ford Explorer, but not because of any act of patriotism, but rather because it was the car that fit my needs the most when I was looking to make a purchase. That's economics.

The biggest reason that GM is having a tough time competing is that they have to spend something like $8 billion a year on health care. Universal health care will eventually come to this country, but not because of the left, it will be because big business will demand it.

[GrantDawg]

My mother has an Avalon. Must be at 110,000 miles by now, hasn't needed anything but new break pads. Didn't need those until a couple years ago. Stepmother has a Lexus, to new to see whats going on with that.

I dislike them both. Not my kind of car at all.
But then would be a 300M? I was just comparing types. I wouldn't buy any of the above, but would choose the Toyota's over the GM's, as per my statement.

[Crapshoot]

I drive a Ford Explorer, but not because of any act of patriotism, but rather because it was the car that fit my needs the most when I was looking to make a purchase. That's economics.

The biggest reason that GM is having a tough time competing is that they have to spend something like $8 billion a year on health care. Universal health care will eventually come to this country, but not because of the left, it will be because big business will demand it.

I actually think you're right - universal health care as an issue will come from the right, not the left. And GM's health care costs are a big reason for its problems - but piss poor management, and an over-reliance on gaz-guzzling cash cow SUV's is another - too much of GM's revenue comes from those alone.

[wade moore]

Render's "facts" are so far off it's not even funny...

As someone mentioned, i guess that means that the numerous magazines, experts, and personal anecdotes are all some conspiracy...

Sorry, but cars are not that similar... they're just not.

[st.cronin]

In this case, I believe Render is actually correct. There are differences between different manufacturers, but they are really minute differences that too much is made of. When shopping for a car, price is far and away the largest variable.

[wade moore]

In this case, I believe Render is actually correct. There are differences between different manufacturers, but they are really minute differences that too much is made of. When shopping for a car, price is far and away the largest variable.
Yeah, Toyotas and Hondas are cheaper AND more reliable than Fords and Chevys....

This idea that the cars are all the same is so insane it is not even funny.

[Ksyrup]

But I would rather have an Avalon or a Lexus.
Agreed.

[sovereignstar]

General Motors (and their lemon paint jobs of the 90's) can kiss my ass.

[Kodos]

Back in the 90s, I had the displeasure of having to read about the hundreds of needless deaths GM caused because they decided it was cheaper to have lawsuits than it was to redesign their trucks and put the gas tanks inside the frames of their trucks. So instead, they let people die fiery deaths for a decade and a half.

Read more. (http://www.vehicle-injuries.com/fueltanks.htm)

Of course, the folks behind that aren't the ones getting fired here. :(

[Tekneek]

The biggest reason that GM is having a tough time competing is that they have to spend something like $8 billion a year on health care. Universal health care will eventually come to this country, but not because of the left, it will be because big business will demand it.

Really? I have not looked at the sales data, so I am not sure the numbers back up my claim, but the reason I have not owned a GM car, and am not in the market for one, is because they don't have an entry in the kind of car I am looking for. In other words, my personal opinion is that GM is in this position because of bad business decisions made at the highest levels of the company. Not because of UAW.

Are you honestly saying if they could just reduce their healthcare costs they would have made a competitor for the Toyota Prius?

[GrantDawg]

Really? I have not looked at the sales data, so I am not sure the numbers back up my claim, but the reason I have not owned a GM car, and am not in the market for one, is because they don't have an entry in the kind of car I am looking for. In other words, my personal opinion is that GM is in this position because of bad business decisions made at the highest levels of the company. Not because of UAW.

Are you honestly saying if they could just reduce their healthcare costs they would have made a competitor for the Toyota Prius?

Any time you reduce cost you increase profit or decrease loss. They would not be competing with Prius so to speak, but they would be losing money at the level they are now.

[Tekneek]

Any time you reduce cost you increase profit or decrease loss. They would not be competing with Prius so to speak, but they would be losing money at the level they are now.

But the question is, could they have made money if they had just been a little smarter? I guess the answer must be that they could not have done any better regardless of the decisions made by upper management, since those guys are not being shown the door. Apparently, all the burden of the company's performance rests in the hands of UAW and its members.

[GrantDawg]

But the question is, could they have made money if they had just been a little smarter? I guess the answer must be that they could not have done any better regardless of the decisions made by upper management, since those guys are not being shown the door. Apparently, all the burden of the company's performance rests in the hands of UAW and its members.

Who said all? Some rest on both. In other words, huge labor costs are real problems to major auto makers, as well as bad managment.

[Tekneek]

Who said all? Some rest on both. In other words, huge labor costs are real problems to major auto makers, as well as bad managment.

But they don't have the balls to address the bad management and prefer to blame a labor union?

[GrantDawg]

But they don't have the balls to address the bad management and prefer to blame a labor union?
They who?

[kcchief19]

On the issue of GM and other American made cars being inferior -- the facts don't entirely match that. The Chevy Malibu made here in Kansas City has been ranked as the No. 1 mid-size car by JD Power. GM is also launching a hybrid Malibu and a sister Saturn care based on the Malibu platform. As Ragone mentioned, some popular "foreign cars" are not foreign at all -- more than half of foreign cars sold in the U.S. last year were made in this country. That doesn't even get into debates like whether or not Chrylsers are American cars since DaimlerChrysler is a German company.

Twenty years ago, I think there was a legitimate argument that foreign made cars were better than American made cars, mostly because Japanese companies invested heavily in new technology and plant design. Since then, American companies have done the same thing, which has essentially negated the difference in quality between the cars. There are even those knowledgeable about the auto industry that have argued that American-made cars by foreign manufucturers are superior to foreign-made cars by foreign manufacturers, suggesting that American craftsmanship is superior when the playing field is even.

What makes the playing field uneven are benefits. It's not salary; American workers at Toyota plants here in the US make the same type of salary as Ford and GM workers. But GM, Ford, Chrylers and American companies have hefty insurance premiums primarily for retired workers which foreign manufacturers don't have -- the plants aren't old enough to have all these Baby Boomers have accumulated 30 years of service on the line. And the imports certainly have an advantage thanks to Japan's universal health care system that makes those workers more cost efficient.

So even if Ford and Toyota made an identical car, it's going to cost Ford maybe $1,500 in health care costs than Toyota. I think the auto companies have done a much better job in protecting pensions than other industries have -- read: airlines -- but they failed to project the astronomical increases in health care costs.

If anybody wants to blame this on the unions, feel free to start that argument in another thread and I'll be there. It's the fault of everyone; the manufacturer, the workers and government combined.

[Tekneek]

They who?

The Board of Directors, shareholders, and the upper levels of management together.

[GoldenEagle]

I heard today that even though the employees were laid off, they will continue to get paid. They will be paid until they retire or get another job. I am not sure if they retain benefits or not. That would not be a bad way to go.

[Airhog]

My uncle works at the GM plant in okc. I read today that what GE says is correct, it is against the UAW contract for GM to permantly close a plant. Those workers are kinda furloughed, and I believe they make 80% of their wage. This does hurt the job market in OKC for some time I think. It does suck because a new manufacturing plant is set to open in norman next march, and I was planning on applying as a technician to work on their machines. I probably won't have any shot now, since a good number of the techs at GM will be looking for a job I would imagine. Such is life though...

[Ragone]

I heard today that even though the employees were laid off, they will continue to get paid. They will be paid until they retire or get another job. I am not sure if they retain benefits or not. That would not be a bad way to go.


This is called sub pay.. and it will only last for 2 years.. and any benefits they get they have to pay cobra.. which is a monumental rip off

[GrantDawg]

My uncle works at the GM plant in okc. I read today that what GE says is correct, it is against the UAW contract for GM to permantly close a plant. Those workers are kinda furloughed, and I believe they make 80% of their wage. This does hurt the job market in OKC for some time I think. It does suck because a new manufacturing plant is set to open in norman next march, and I was planning on applying as a technician to work on their machines. I probably won't have any shot now, since a good number of the techs at GM will be looking for a job I would imagine. Such is life though...

Yeah. I lived near the main Saturn plant a couple of years after it was open. The people that were native to the area was pretty ticked about the fact they were told when it opened it would bring thousands of jobs. What they didn't know was it would actually bring several thousand northerners down to do those jobs. I think they hired about 100 people outside of the union workers they brought down from other plant closings.

That of course is not to say it didn't bring jobs to the people of the area. They were able to get jobs cutting peoples grass, serving them fast food, and washing their clothes. :)

[QuikSand]

This is called sub pay.. and it will only last for 2 years.. and any benefits they get they have to pay cobra.. which is a monumental rip off

They are being underpaid for not working any more? Really? A rip off?

If my employer no longer needs my services, you know what percent he continues to pay me for two years? You know how many people are in my situation?



Yes, GM's management made some bad decisions, and that is essentially at the core of their probelm right now. It is possible to maintain a successful automotive division in this country, but it is by no means easy.

One of the main reasons is is not easy is the deeply entrenched automotive labor unions - some of the strongest in the world, and who represent, in large part, people with wholly replaceable skills. Demanding contracts with clauses like this (the company is simply not alllowed to shut down plants) is patently absurd, and the substantially inflated labor coats in this country -- especially when driven by unions -- makes for an even tougher time turning a profit here than elsewhere. Most of the "foreign" names that do business with assembly plants here are nowhere near as under the thumb of the UAW as the "domestic" names, and still maintain an advantage (though that may change in time, but so might their willingness to center their workforce here).

As usual, the situation is more complex that anything that can be wrapped up in one or two pithy little sentences. Were GM leaders at fault? Yes. Are rising health care costs at fault? Yes. Are labor unions at fault? Yes. Are consumers continuing to vote with their feet and walk right past a GM dealer to buy a Toyota or other name instead? Yes.

[Ragone]

I wasn't calling sub pay a rip off quik.. i was calling cobra a rip off.. and as far as saying 20+ bucks a hour is too much to pay someone to work assembly..

I welcome anyone to try it.. the strain of doing the same thing every day tears up your body.. If the money wasn't good i can guarentee you no one would want to do it.

[CraigSca]

I wasn't calling sub pay a rip off quik.. i was calling cobra a rip off.. and as far as saying 20+ bucks a hour is too much to pay someone to work assembly..

I welcome anyone to try it.. the strain of doing the same thing every day tears up your body.. If the money wasn't good i can guarentee you no one would want to do it.
A few things. Yes - COBRA is outlandish - but that's across the board, that's NOT a UAW thing. When I was laid off, I was paying $1300 a month to maintain health insurance for my family. Also note, I was not PAID FOR TWO YEARS (holy crap!). Also, there was no stipulation in my contract (not that I even had one) that my employer COULD NOT close my location (again, holy crap!). When I was laid off, it was "sayonara" - I would have killed for 2 years of severance pay.

Re: pensions. Are current workers still entitled to them? If a company made a contract to an employer, they have to live up to it. However, if current employees will still get these in the future - damn, what a deal. I know of very few employers who still offer pensions.

I'm sure assembly work is back-breaking, but again we're getting into supply and demand. It reminds me of the old argument teacher's pay vs. professional athlete's pay - the issue is, there are a hell of a lot of people who can do assembly line work, there are very few that can hit a baseball. I can imagine it's back-breaking work, but it still does not mask the fact that the skillset needed to do the work is lower on the pyramid than rocket science.

Yet...it pisses me off when the management stays intact and the workers are the ones who suffer. It seems like everyone is at fault here, and yes, I will continue to buy my Hondas because they're damn reliable and I like the feature set.

[Ryche]

My wife insists that we buy cars made in the US because her father works at a taconite mine, but at least she does the research to know which cars are actually made here. She had a 1992 Ford Tempo when we met. Excellent car, no problems with it until after 150K miles. We're driving a Ford Focus now, no problems through 70K miles and we just bought a Mazda 6. I really liked the Mazda 3 because it gets better gas mileage, but it's also manufactured in Japan, so that was a no.

Assembly line worker wages are definitely at least a bit overinflated. My anecdote, a friend's fiancee got a job working at Ford straight out of high school because his father and other family worked there. He was making 70K a year within four years while working the line.

[cuervo72]

But I don't necessarily have a problem with the assembly line workers - it's the designs, features, safety specs, etc., that are lacking, IMO.

Exactly. I look at a lot of Fords and Chevys, and I just think "damn, these are boring/ugly cars". Now, that's not the case 100% of the time, I loved the redesigned T-Bird. Of course, I wasn't in the market for a car like that. Dodge on the other hand, from a stylistic point, is much more appealing to me. Even for minivans (our last purchase in 2000), I liked the Caravan much better than the Ford/Chevy offerings. However, the Mazda MPV was much more affordable for us (and smaller), yet still had most of what we wanted, so that's what we bought.

(for background, our past purchases had been a 98 Jeep Cherokee, a 95 Dodge Avenger, and a 93 Saturn that my wife's parents had bought her...so we're certainly not averse to American cars)

Our next purchase will either be a family sedan or a commuter car to replace the Saturn. If Ford/Chevy have something out there that appeals to us, we'll check it out. But from past experiences, their offerings haven't inspred us. Just the way it is.

[cuervo72]

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

The Saturn I drove to work today has 163k or so on it, and is getting along fine. I'd like to get at least 200k out of it.

[Apathetic Lurker]

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

Maybe not but a few others I know have Saturns that run amazingly well. They are all pre 95. I do know that Saturns from 96-99 are mostly crap. Still I have never had any problems with my Saturns :) .

[GrantDawg]

The Saturn I drove to work today has 163k or so on it, and is getting along fine. I'd like to get at least 200k out of it.

And I drove a 95 Ford Escort until it had 180,000 miles on it. I wouldn't say they all lasted that long though. Saturns have decent but not spectacular service records. Indiviual stories mean nothing.

[QuikSand]

We ought to be able to resolve this whole "what kind of cars are best" debate if just a few more people offer as evidence what happened to them with their one or two cars.

[GrantDawg]

We ought to be able to resolve this whole "what kind of cars are best" debate if just a few more people offer as evidence what happened to them with their one or two cars.
I agree, which was really my point in the first place. I also once had a Pinto that lasted for 200,000+ miles without major service. Does that mean everyone should rush out and buy a Pinto? Consumer Report ratings are a pretty good gauge of how reliable a car is.

[sterlingice]

Yeah, but Quik how many people in this thread are using 3rd and 4th hand evidence of "I read this a while ago, I think" and the like. I'd say that's about as credible as anecdotal evidence. Heck, even JD Power, for instance, I'm sure they test a couple out but I doubt they're still driving around 1997 Hyundais to make sure their claims of "it'll break down" stand up.

SI

[clintl]

Regardless of whether you believe Japanese automakers make more reliable cars (I think they do), what the Japanese really do better than the US automakers is position themselves to deal with rapidly changing market conditions. The Japanese were ready for a big jump in gas prices with multiple hybrid vehicles that had already technologies proven themselves, for example. Meanwhile, the US automakers were obsessed with milking the SUV market and trying to sell vehicular abominations like the Excursion and the Suburban. And they ended up years behind the Japanese AGAIN. In fact, I think Ford, which is the only US automaker to actually have a hybrid on the market, is licensing the technology from the Japanese.

It's this kind of stuff that kills the US automakers. Not union benefits, which are not much of factor at all. The US automakers actually sell comparable vehicles for a lower price than the Japanese.

[Crapshoot]

I think it has been reiterated that union benefits are a big part of the problem. Simply put, Assembly line workers, covered by union contracts, are being paid for the good performance in the past, without being penalized for the poor performance since then. Clearly, GM"s management is at fault as well, which is why it has been replaced since.

[RendeR]

Render's "facts" are so far off it's not even funny...

As someone mentioned, i guess that means that the numerous magazines, experts, and personal anecdotes are all some conspiracy...

Sorry, but cars are not that similar... they're just not.
Magazines? Experts? yes indeed, they are certainly beyond ANY suspicion and could never have a biased point of view. Concumer reports? for christs sake THEY even caved in and started taking financial support from product makers in recent years.

Keep reading, keep sucking in the ignorance. I'll keep driving my Pontiac "Matrix"...oh so sorry, my "Vibe" and you can go on blindly believing there is a difference between American manufacturers and the imports.

The only one that matters truly is looks and the US cars blow the foriegn ones out of the water there.

As for GM not having any top quality vehicles, I will use one example, the Cavalier. The single highest selling passenger car in the history of automobiles. You don't reach that mark selling shit vehicles.

Of course some moron at GM thought it would be smart to replace it with the cobalt....so I won't argue the idiocy that is GM management.

Bah, this topic is as bad as politics, people would rather read "Ford and Driver" and swallow the whole story without question than actually research the facts.

[Glengoyne]

This topic reminded me of a Geoge WIll Editorial from month or so ago. Regarding the general quality of American v. Japanese cars. I think the American cars came a long way quality wise in the 90s. I don't believe that the JD Powers and Consumer Reports of the world are showing near the disparity between Japanese cars and American cars that they used to. A number of American cars do pretty well in the areas pertaining to overall quality.




A Right Turn Back to Making Cars

By George F. Will

Thursday, October 20, 2005; Page A27

<nitf>General Motors took an interesting turn on Monday. It is going back into the automobile business.</nitf>

<nitf>Granted, GM has always been in that industry, but it has also become the nation's largest private purchaser of health care. This supposedly secondary role has become primary.
</nitf>

<nitf>GM has been forced to allow product development, pricing and other decisions to be driven by the need to keep sufficient revenue flowing in so it can flow out in fulfillment of GM's function as a welfare state. GM provides $5.2 billion in health care annually -- more than Harley-Davidson's revenue -- to 1.1 million workers, retirees and dependents. Retirees outnumber current U.S. employees 2.5 to 1. The $4 billion that goes annually to retirees does not go into developing products people want to buy.</nitf>

<nitf>Concessions by the United Auto Workers will provide GM with annual savings of $1 billion in health care costs. But GM's hourly workers, who pay no health care deductibles and only nominal co-payments, will still enjoy coverage better than most Americans have. Since 2000, the percentage of American businesses offering any health insurance to workers has declined from 69 to 60.</nitf>

<nitf>The UAW's willingness to make concessions regarding a contract that does not expire until 2007 recalls what the UAW did in the recession of 1982. Then, Chrysler was in parlous condition, and the UAW reopened a contract to give back benefits. But today's givebacks are occurring while a humming economy in the fourth year of expansion has lowered unemployment to 5.1 percent.</nitf>

<nitf>Largely because of generous benefits won by the UAW in palmier decades, GM's North American auto business is hemorrhaging money -- $1.6 billion in the third quarter. This is in part because its employee-discount-for-everyone pricing has worked, sort of: Until that promotion ended at the beginning of this month, GM was selling lots of vehicles -- but losing more than $1,000 per sale. In the first nine days after the discounts ended, GM's sales plunged 57 percent.</nitf>

<nitf>Shortly before Monday's announcement that the UAW agreed to trim GM workers' and retirees' benefits, Delphi, the auto parts company that GM owned until 1999, sought bankruptcy protection. Under terms of the 1999 separation, GM may be liable for up to $12 billion of Delphi's pension and health care benefits, which would offset GM's gains from the UAW concessions.</nitf>

<nitf>The bankruptcy of Delphi is another pebble -- a big pebble; Delphi has 185,000 employees worldwide, 33,000 of them unionized Americans -- in an accelerating avalanche of corporate decisions dismantling "defined-benefits America." As a result, intergenerational strife, which has long been anticipated, may at last be at hand: Delphi proposes cutting the compensation -- pay and benefits -- of younger workers from $65 per hour to $20 or less, so it can fulfill the promise to retirees of a fixed percentage of their salaries.</nitf>

<nitf>Robert "Steve" Miller, Delphi's chief executive, minces no words, telling the Wall Street Journal that defined-benefit programs are imprudent anachronisms: "The notion of having all your retirement eggs in one basket -- your employer -- is a concentration of risk that is simply inadvisable for anyone in today's fast-moving economy." He calculates that a competitive American industrial compensation cost is about $20 an hour. And to get to a total compensation cost of $20, including health care, retirement and workers' compensation, "which is high in the states we are in like New York, Ohio and Michigan," you have to have a basic hourly wage of $10. Pay at Delphi's plants in China is roughly $3 an hour.</nitf>

<nitf>Miller bluntly says that the social contract written after 1945 is being -- must be -- repealed because, given globalization, unskilled manual labor cannot be paid $65 an hour, with the cost passed on to consumers. "When you buy a Hyundai you get a satellite radio as your option, but if you buy a Chevrolet you get social welfare as an option. Long term, the customer is going to desert you if you try to price for your social-welfare costs."</nitf>

<nitf>Herb Stein, the University of Chicago economist who served as chairman of President Richard Nixon's Council of Economic Advisers, famously said: If something cannot go on forever, it won't. Delphi's resort to bankruptcy and GM's attempt, with the cooperation of the UAW, to avoid, for now, doing that, suggest that America's welfare state -- its private sector as well as its public-sector components -- is reaching its Herb Stein Moment.</nitf>

[cthomer5000]

We ought to be able to resolve this whole "what kind of cars are best" debate if just a few more people offer as evidence what happened to them with their one or two cars.
You're right! My 1982 Buick LeSabre didn't start today. Im off them forever.

[lynchjm24]

COBRA rates are almost exactly what your employer is paying for your healthcare, by law it can only be 2% higher to handle the adminstration. So if you are paying $1,300 a month, then your employer was paying in the $1,275 neighborhood for you.

[lynchjm24]

The only one that matters truly is looks and the US cars blow the foriegn ones out of the water there.


And yet here is GM, well on it's way to bankruptcy.... I guess maybe what you said can't possibly be true.

[cuervo72]

And I drove a 95 Ford Escort until it had 180,000 miles on it. I wouldn't say they all lasted that long though. Saturns have decent but not spectacular service records. Indiviual stories mean nothing.

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

You were saying?

[Tekneek]

And yet here is GM, well on it's way to bankruptcy.... I guess maybe what you said can't possibly be true.

You misunderstand. The problem with GM is not that they don't make the right kinds of cars. The sales are all apparently there, it is just that they are losing so much money trying to pay out the benefits they previously agreed to offer.

[Galaxy]

The only one that matters truly is looks and the US cars blow the foriegn ones out of the water there.


What?

I think the European companies are coming on very strong as well. Also, a major shift in our car buying is the "luxury cars". GM has Caddy, which it has revive, but it still is having a hard time competing with the European brands. Ford has Jaguar and SAAB, which is still a mess.

What GM/Ford needs to do is look at Nissan's amazing turnaround.

[Galaxy]

But that is not the same as "they all use the technology, platforms, and parts in the same way and to the same standards of performance."

True...If anything, the US companies only share within the brands. Ford does this with the Lincoln/Mercury/Ford lines. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not. It saves money, but does from a brand/business standpoint, escp. if your paying for a much more expensive product with Lincoln, I would wonder if your truly getting a "better" product.

[Airhog]

Personally, I think that more american companys should follow the japanese trend when it comes to paying wages. Pay a minimum base wage. Then you give them large bonuses based on speed, quality, and customer service. I believe that any time you directly put amount of money someone can make in their hands, they will go that much further to insure those goals are met...

[QuikSand]

Personally, I think that more american companys should follow the japanese trend when it comes to paying wages. Pay a minimum base wage. Then you give them large bonuses based on speed, quality, and customer service. I believe that any time you directly put amount of money someone can make in their hands, they will go that much further to insure those goals are met...

Propose this to U.S. manufacturers... you think they would disagree? Of course not. They would much rather pay for performance than be shackled to long-term payments for workers whether they are needed or not. But they don't have the complete say in the matter (as one may have gathered from this thread, even if nowhere else).

[lynchjm24]

You misunderstand. The problem with GM is not that they don't make the right kinds of cars. The sales are all apparently there, it is just that they are losing so much money trying to pay out the benefits they previously agreed to offer.

I most certainly don't misunderstand. The sales have been there in the short term due to their employee pricing strategy, once that ended they stopped selling cars in 2005. Since they were taking a loss on each sale, it's probably not a great long term strategy. They have continued to do well in the truck/SUV market but have been brutal in the passenger car arena.

I follow the their health coverage issues pretty closely since I'm in the industry. That is a big problem for them, but it certainly isn't their only problem.

[Tekneek]

but it certainly isn't their only problem.

I was being sarcastic. Those out there with an anti-labor union agenda are jumping all over this and blaming the UAW for the layoffs. As if GM would be on top of the world without that damned labor union dragging them down.

[Bubba Wheels]

I think it has been reiterated that union benefits are a big part of the problem. Simply put, Assembly line workers, covered by union contracts, are being paid for the good performance in the past, without being penalized for the poor performance since then. Clearly, GM"s management is at fault as well, which is why it has been replaced since.

Ignorance is bliss. Have fun.

[Bubba Wheels]

One big difference between American-made cars and those made in America by others. American-based auto companies buy 80% of their parts from American-based parts makers and suppliers, which benefits other American workers as that money then ripples into building, retail sectors, ect.

Foreign-made companies, even when assembled in the U.S., buy their parts from the 'home country', often from companies subsidized and in collusion with those home-country governments (wait until China starts selling cars in this country in the not-too-distant future!) and then on top of that funnels their profits from sales here back home. We and our economy get nada for that.

And I just love the fact that for all the money and profits we funnel over to Japan to make them so wealthy Japan turns around and allows us the 'privalege' of spending yet more of our deficit-ridden country's money to defend them for the likes of North Korea (put South Korea in this same category, where G.I.s serving along the DMZ will tell you shots are fire their way routinely and not reported here.) while those countries then funnel their auto-profits (subsidized by their governments, unlike here) back into research, ect...

But Americans must be content with this arrangement or they wouldn't put up with it. That simple.

[Apathetic Lurker]

And I drove a 95 Ford Escort until it had 180,000 miles on it. I wouldn't say they all lasted that long though. Saturns have decent but not spectacular service records. Indiviual stories mean nothing.

Sure they do. My next car will be something from Saturn. A lot of people I know buy or not buy thier vehicles based on the quality and/or service they recieved on prior vehicles. I bought my 1st Saturn based on the fact that 2 of my friends had them and raved about them. The little woman is getting a Vue because I will pay for that but not any other vehicle(plus she likes it). Saturn has 2 sales from me and will one day soon get number 3. When my two cars finally go to the great junkyard in the sky, Saturn will have sale #4.

[lynchjm24]

I was being sarcastic. Those out there with an anti-labor union agenda are jumping all over this and blaming the UAW for the layoffs. As if GM would be on top of the world without that damned labor union dragging them down.


Sorry I didn't pick up on it. The UAW would be well served to look at the bigger picture. They will have a major effect on GM's 'turnaround', and would be smart to position themselves as partners. At some point their only move might be to offer short term concessions for a chance at long term gains.

[MrBigglesworth]

And I just love the fact that for all the money and profits we funnel over to Japan to make them so wealthy Japan turns around and allows us the 'privalege' of spending yet more of our deficit-ridden country's money to defend them for the likes of North Korea (put South Korea in this same category, where G.I.s serving along the DMZ will tell you shots are fire their way routinely and not reported here.) while those countries then funnel their auto-profits (subsidized by their governments, unlike here) back into research, ect...
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the government you elected are the ones that want to have a military presence in Japan and South Korea. In fact, there have been recent anti-US military presence mass demonstrations by South Koreans.

[sabotai]

But Americans must be content with this arrangement or they wouldn't put up with it. That simple.
I have no problem with it.

[Airhog]

Propose this to U.S. manufacturers... you think they would disagree? Of course not. They would much rather pay for performance than be shackled to long-term payments for workers whether they are needed or not. But they don't have the complete say in the matter (as one may have gathered from this thread, even if nowhere else).


Oh I agree that they don't have complete say, at least in union shops. I think the mindset needs to change in non-union shops for this to become more common. I work for a japanese company, and right now they only pay around 5% of my yearly wage as bonuses. The bonuses do fluctuate some, but they have been pretty close each time I have gotten one, from between 4.5%-5.5

[Airhog]

Foreign-made companies, even when assembled in the U.S., buy their parts from the 'home country', often from companies subsidized and in collusion with those home-country governments (wait until China starts selling cars in this country in the not-too-distant future!) and then on top of that funnels their profits from sales here back home. We and our economy get nada for that.

Capitalism isn't some game with sides. Companies will do whatever it takes to make the most money. Plain and simple. And I would do some homework before making a fact-less claim that foreign companys buy their parts from the 'home country' I work for a japanese company, and the opposite is quite true. We try to buy as many parts as possible from domestic suppliers for one reason. Cost. Procurment of parts from Japan for us is extremely expensive. Especially when you factor in weight. I see the foreign auto companys opening up engine manufacturing plants, and other parts plants here in the states, because it is more cost efficient.

[Bubba Wheels]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the government you elected are the ones that want to have a military presence in Japan and South Korea. In fact, there have been recent anti-US military presence mass demonstrations by South Koreans.

Well, in case you've been missing it, some of Bush's most passionate critics have been conservatives. Pat Buchanan being one of the most articulate.

When you station troops around the world, some would call that Empire. When you do that while at the same time ignore your own borders for special interests sakes, some would call that 'not passing the smell test." More and more I wonder if Bush accomplished the unthinkable, getting elected by social conservatives in order to push a corporate-interest agenda.

[Bubba Wheels]

Capitalism isn't some game with sides. Companies will do whatever it takes to make the most money. Plain and simple. And I would do some homework before making a fact-less claim that foreign companys buy their parts from the 'home country' I work for a japanese company, and the opposite is quite true. We try to buy as many parts as possible from domestic suppliers for one reason. Cost. Procurment of parts from Japan for us is extremely expensive. Especially when you factor in weight. I see the foreign auto companys opening up engine manufacturing plants, and other parts plants here in the states, because it is more cost efficient.

You need to read Bill Ford's address he made to the National Press Club the other day. Will link it if I can.

And your dead right about the 'game' thing. We are heading towards an economic restructuring in this country that will lower and alter our standard-of-living for us and our kids and their kids. Even Greenspan is now saying this.

Link is here. Note Ford's statements in regard to my 'fact-less claim' above. http://www.media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=22062&make_id=trust

[MrBigglesworth]

More and more I wonder if Bush accomplished the unthinkable, getting elected by social conservatives in order to push a corporate-interest agenda.
Whoa, if Bubba Wheels is catching on it's no wonder his approval is about to go under 30%. My only question is, why did it take you so long to realize it?

[Bubba Wheels]

Whoa, if Bubba Wheels is catching on it's no wonder his approval is about to go under 30%. My only question is, why did it take you so long to realize it?

GOP has always been split between the 'blue-bloods' and the 'social conservative' that Reagan brought in. Bush seems to be an honest, sincere man unlike the last President we had. Bush also talked a good game to social conservatives, but his actions never seem to back up his words (not one fiscal veto as President, ect...)

Believe me, if social conservatives start to believe that Bush led them on, in his remaining days as President he is going to wish he was Bill Clinton.

[Airhog]

You need to read Bill Ford's address he made to the National Press Club the other day. Will link it if I can.

And your dead right about the 'game' thing. We are heading towards an economic restructuring in this country that will lower and alter our standard-of-living for us and our kids and their kids. Even Greenspan is now saying this.

Link is here. Note Ford's statements in regard to my 'fact-less claim' above. http://www.media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=22062&make_id=trust

im sorry, but the article I read makes no mention of foreign manufacturing practices. I don't really know how this applies to what you said earlier either.

[Bubba Wheels]

im sorry, but the article I read makes no mention of foreign manufacturing practices. I don't really know how this applies to what you said earlier either.

States right in the article percentages of parts bought by auto manufacturers from where. You just need to read it. Click on Ford's speech when the page comes up. Page itself didn't come thru for whatever.

[Crapshoot]

Ignorance is bliss. Have fun.

Given that 3rd grade was probably the zenith of your intellectual achievement, you calling anyone else ignorant is hilarious. People choose to buy non-American cars (with as little meaning as that has these days), because they feel more comfortable with the services and expected bang for the buck from those. Sinophobic idiots like you contribute nothing. Study economics, than come back.

[Bubba Wheels]

Given that 3rd grade was probably the zenith of your intellectual achievement, you calling anyone else ignorant is hilarious. People choose to buy non-American cars (with as little meaning as that has these days), because they feel more comfortable. Study economics, than come back.

I stand by you being ignorant. You make statements and never source or back them. At least I can do that, so if all I have is a 3rd grade education (How did I ever get accepted into Detroit College of Law?) then you show yourself more ignorant and ill informed than 3rd grade. :rolleyes:

[Crapshoot]

I stand by you being ignorant. You make statements and never source or back them. At least I can do that, so if all I have is a 3rd grade education (How did I ever get accepted into Detroit College of Law?) then you show yourself more ignorant and ill informed than 3rd grade. :rolleyes:

Keep standing - what am I supposed to source, the declining GM sales trends ? Funnily enough, You and I agree on Bush's fiscal policy - a Republican president being responsible for the greatest expansion of Government since WW II is patently ridiculous.

[Tekneek]

And your dead right about the 'game' thing. We are heading towards an economic restructuring in this country that will lower and alter our standard-of-living for us and our kids and their kids.

And so many people seem strangely happy about it.

[GrantDawg]

You were saying?

What? I was pointing out just because he had a good record with Saturn doesn't mean everybody has. Point after pont that antedotal evidence means nothing, since for every story there is a counter story. Is that a problem?

[GrantDawg]

Sure they do. My next car will be something from Saturn. A lot of people I know buy or not buy thier vehicles based on the quality and/or service they recieved on prior vehicles. I bought my 1st Saturn based on the fact that 2 of my friends had them and raved about them. The little woman is getting a Vue because I will pay for that but not any other vehicle(plus she likes it). Saturn has 2 sales from me and will one day soon get number 3. When my two cars finally go to the great junkyard in the sky, Saturn will have sale #4.
That's funny, because it was the Vue that my friends had so many problems with. But if you like it, go for it. My friend, my mom, my sister have all had Saturns with a good number of problems. That wouldn't completely prevent me from buying a Saturn (the style would), but it would give me pause.

[Apathetic Lurker]

That's funny, because it was the Vue that my friends had so many problems with. But if you like it, go for it. My friend, my mom, my sister have all had Saturns with a good number of problems. That wouldn't completely prevent me from buying a Saturn (the style would), but it would give me pause.


It is a personal thing. I nor any of my friends ever had serious issues with Saturn which will keep me going back for more. I once had a MR2 whick kept blowing the head gasket.I won't buy Toyota for that reason. Won't say Toyota in general is a bad brand but just not for me.

What kind of probs did they have with the VUE if I might ask?

[Ragone]

Well actually.. all the problems started when Bill Clinton passed Nafta.. but thats another discussion... then george bush wanted to expand nafta to include china/asia..

[Flasch186]

NAFTA = CRAPTA

[cuervo72]

What? I was pointing out just because he had a good record with Saturn doesn't mean everybody has. Point after pont that antedotal evidence means nothing, since for every story there is a counter story. Is that a problem?

Just saying that my anectdotal evidence is as valid as the anectdotal evidence you offered up earlier. I was just offering up my experience with it, I wasn't asking for you to discount it.

[GrantDawg]

Just saying that my anectdotal evidence is as valid as the anectdotal evidence you offered up earlier. I was just offering up my experience with it, I wasn't asking for you to discount it.

And I was pointing out neither is a very valid critera for judging. That is why resources such as Consumer Reports are much better than "I know a guy..."

[GrantDawg]

It is a personal thing. I nor any of my friends ever had serious issues with Saturn which will keep me going back for more. I once had a MR2 whick kept blowing the head gasket.I won't buy Toyota for that reason. Won't say Toyota in general is a bad brand but just not for me.

What kind of probs did they have with the VUE if I might ask?

Had to completely replace the transmission 5,000 miles after the warranty ended, and then had to replace parts on the front end just a few thousand miles later.

[Glengoyne]

Well actually.. all the problems started when Bill Clinton passed Nafta.. but thats another discussion... then george bush wanted to expand nafta to include china/asia..
Nafta is essentially an investment in the economies of other Nations. The idea is to create jobs in somewhat developing countries, raise the standard of living and living wage of the people in those countries, to eventually create consumers for products produced here. Like many other investments, it doesn't pay immediate returns. Eventually we should reap the benefits. It is a hard pill to swallow, but it should reap dividends in the future.

[Apathetic Lurker]

And I was pointing out neither is a very valid critera for judging. That is why resources such as Consumer Reports are much better than "I know a guy..."


Sorry, got to disagree. Personally I prefer the advise of someone I personally know who has personal knowledge of something I am interested in over some media whore who is getting money trying to tell me whats best for me.


Ouch! Yeah, that would put a damper on any future purchases of Saturn products by your friend. I will take that into consideration.

[Rizon]

American cars are just happy they have European cars to make fun of.

[GrantDawg]

Sorry, got to disagree. Personally I prefer the advise of someone I personally know who has personal knowledge of something I am interested in over some media whore who is getting money trying to tell me whats best for me.


Ouch! Yeah, that would put a damper on any future purchases of Saturn products by your friend. I will take that into consideration.

Don't know much about Consumer Reports, eh?

[Apathetic Lurker]

Don't know much about Consumer Reports, eh?

Nope, And don't personally care too much. I have done really well with cars and other things without relying on the opinions of those who I don't know.I would rather go here and ask for personal experiences with something I might be interested in than read about it from some media hack who just might be getting a kickback for writing glowing reports. I just don't trust reporters much. Actually I don't trust them at all. Personal experiences from my college days at SUNYatBuffalo as a photog for the the Spectrum.one example: I was as asked to be the photographer for a food bank story at a church near by. I showed up, the reported didn't. So I took pictures and decided to write the story myself. Brought it in and in the next issue there it was. But not with my name on the story but that damn reporters :mad: . Really soured me on to the validity of thier reporting and of thier honesty. Just one example of many on my dealings whith the honesty of reporting.

Cars- did alright..6 cars ,1 had problems(mr2 from Canada) No foreign beasts for me(btw I am a damn foreigner) Kathy on the other hand went through consumer reports(and others) with her then idiot husband and they chose what the the media whores said was the best car for thier location and budget. I have to pay for her repairs which are higher for her one car than both my vehicles combined.

Computers- built my own with opinions from friends on parts. Never had a major issue. Kathy's comp was bought according to what was considered the best at that time. That thing was tossed by me after the 10th major problem.(she and her family are big on consumer reports and things like that).

consoles- If I listened to the media flacks I would never have bought my x-box when it came out. Very happy on that account.

little woman- didn't need no stinking consumer report for this one :D

rugrat- maybe need a manual

school for rugrat- Don't need no damn statistical report. Go from experience of doing every school in area as a bus driver. When I eventually move to Oklahoma the rugger is going to the same school her best friend is at. end of story. Period

[GrantDawg]

Nope, And don't personally care too much. I have done really well with cars and other things without relying on the opinions of those who I don't know.I would rather go here and ask for personal experiences with something I might be interested in than read about it from some media hack who just might be getting a kickback for writing glowing reports. I just don't trust reporters much. Actually I don't trust them at all. Personal experiences from my college days at SUNYatBuffalo as a photog for the the Spectrum.one example: I was as asked to be the photographer for a food bank story at a church near by. I showed up, the reported didn't. So I took pictures and decided to write the story myself. Brought it in and in the next issue there it was. But not with my name on the story but that damn reporters :mad: . Really soured me on to the validity of thier reporting and of thier honesty. Just one example of many on my dealings whith the honesty of reporting.

Cars- did alright..6 cars ,1 had problems(mr2 from Canada) No foreign beasts for me(btw I am a damn foreigner) Kathy on the other hand went through consumer reports(and others) with her then idiot husband and they chose what the the media whores said was the best car for thier location and budget. I have to pay for her repairs which are higher for her one car than both my vehicles combined.

Computers- built my own with opinions from friends on parts. Never had a major issue. Kathy's comp was bought according to what was considered the best at that time. That thing was tossed by me after the 10th major problem.(she and her family are big on consumer reports and things like that).

consoles- If I listened to the media flacks I would never have bought my x-box when it came out. Very happy on that account.

little woman- didn't need no stinking consumer report for this one :D

rugrat- maybe need a manual

school for rugrat- Don't need no damn statistical report. Go from experience of doing every school in area as a bus driver. When I eventually move to Oklahoma the rugger is going to the same school her best friend is at. end of story. Period

Well, just for info, Consumer Reports doesn't just have reporters give opinion. It is a independent research company that accepts no advertising so they can make impartial judgements. All of their rating is based on actual service reports from real people using the vehichles and an extensive testing labotory. So, it is much more science than opinion. That is why I trust that more than your limited experience.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Well, just for info, Consumer Reports doesn't just have reporters give opinion. It is a independent research company that accepts no advertising so they can make impartial judgements. All of their rating is based on actual service reports from real people using the vehichles and an extensive testing labotory. So, it is much more science than opinion. That is why I trust that more than your limited experience.

Nothing is ever completley impartial. "impartial judgements" that there tells me they are giving you thier opinion, even if they think it is impartial . How do I know it is valid? Thier lab equipment might not be calibrated completely.One of thier trained monkeys might be hung over and miss some insignificant part which can skew the results. Actual service reports from how many people? 10? 100?1000? So they are using "individual" assessments from real people. Just a lot more then a few friends or aquaintances. Same thing I use just on a larger scale.It's still some part opinion.

It might be good for those who can't figure it out for themselves(for the most part) and need a crutch(like my wife) but no thanks, I will stick to my methods.

Never asked you to trust my experience.I can give you my opinion and you can take it or leave it.thats it. Never expected you to think it's the be all end all.

How do you know my experience is limited?

[GrantDawg]

Nothing is ever completley impartial. "impartial judgements" that there tells me they are giving you thier opinion, even if they think it is impartial . How do I know it is valid? Thier lab equipment might not be calibrated completely.One of thier trained monkeys might be hung over and miss some insignificant part which can skew the results. Actual service reports from how many people? 10? 100?1000? So they are using "individual" assessments from real people. Just a lot more then a few friends or aquaintances. Same thing I use just on a larger scale.It's still some part opinion.

It might be good for those who can't figure it out for themselves(for the most part) and need a crutch(like my wife) but no thanks, I will stick to my methods.

Never asked you to trust my experience.I can give you my opinion and you can take it or leave it.thats it. Never expected you to think it's the be all end all.

How do you know my experience is limited?
You have 10,000 friends turn in actual service records for their vehicles to get the best ranking? Whatever you like to do, go for it. This was a greater overall discussion than whether you like Saturn or not, and actual statics from reliable sources mean a lot more than "my daddy had a Buick.."

[Apathetic Lurker]

You have 10,000 friends turn in actual service records for their vehicles to get the best ranking? Whatever you like to do, go for it. This was a greater overall discussion than whether you like Saturn or not, and actual statics from reliable sources mean a lot more than "my daddy had a Buick.."

If you reread my post I said I do it on a smaller scale. Service records are decent but a lot of service places try to add something to the bill.... Need an example? right before I met my then g/f now sig other, she had some semi-serious work done at a very,very reputable service center in Buffalo.They charged her for pads and for fully loaded calipers.And overcharged her to boot. 9/10 people would never notice the discrepancy.

Now what is it Ditka said about statistics? :D


I think I will never change your mind and vice-versa. You have your way and I have mine. Lets leave it at that.

Peace

[GrantDawg]

If you reread my post I said I do it on a smaller scale. Service records are decent but a lot of service places try to add something to the bill.... Need an example? right before I met my then g/f now sig other, she had some semi-serious work done at a very,very reputable service center in Buffalo.They charged her for pads and for fully loaded calipers.And overcharged her to boot. 9/10 people would never notice the discrepancy.

Now what is it Ditka said about statistics? :D


I think I will never change your mind and vice-versa. You have your way and I have mine. Lets leave it at that.

Peace

I have no intention of trying to change your mind. You have every right to be wrong. God bless America.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I have no intention of trying to change your mind. You have every right to be wrong. God bless America.

I could say the same for you :)

[GrantDawg]

I could say the same for you :)

And you'd be wrong again. :)

[Jesse_Ewiak]

GOP has always been split between the 'blue-bloods' and the 'social conservative' that Reagan brought in. Bush seems to be an honest, sincere man unlike the last President we had. Bush also talked a good game to social conservatives, but his actions never seem to back up his words (not one fiscal veto as President, ect...)

Believe me, if social conservatives start to believe that Bush led them on, in his remaining days as President he is going to wish he was Bill Clinton.

Well yes, Bush does wish he has 60-65% approval ratings at the moment.

[Apathetic Lurker]

And you'd be wrong again. :)

lol

You have my blessing to keep being delusional :)

[CraigSca]

Approval ratings?! Aren't they a part of STATISTICS?! Didn't Mike Ditka say something about that?!

The fact is - statistics can lie, but 99% of them don't. Saying statistics is worthless is like saying I'll never trust reporters because one time in college I didn't get the "by" line when I should have. :)

[Warhammer]

It is interesting to see this all happen, but I think this is the big item that shows that we are at a crossroads here in America.

There are a number of reasons why we are here. Our workforce is no longer as qualified as the rest of the world. That is why many jobs are moving off shore. Why pay someone here that has little skills 30,000 per year to answer the phone? We can send that job to India where they speak English and have them do the same thing for 1/2 price. Why have the engineering done here in the US, when India is turning out more engineers that will do the same work for 20,000 per year, vs. 60-70,000 per year here?

Unfortunately, we are not used to working in a competitive labor market. We do not value education here in the States. Look at how children react to other kids that make good grades. "Nerd," "geek," "dweeb," are just some of the words you hear hurled at kids in school that get good grades. This can change priorities in a large number of kids. Why do we need those kids that get good grades? We need them to go into the sciences, engineering, physics, chemistry. We need more graduates in those fields for a number of reasons. We need physics and chemistry grads to make those general discoveries of things like nanotubes, plasma technology, etc. We need the chemists to make discoveries like plastics, drugs, etc. We need the engineers to make efficiency refinements in our processes (of all types) as well as applying this new technology to create new industries.

We also need to take a look at the United States as a whole and realize that we have a large number of things that should encourage companies to locate here. First, we have an abundance of natural resources (of all types, uranium, copper, iron, oil, etc.). Second, we are still the world's largest economy with plenty of wealth, companies want to sell to us. Third, we have national stability, very important when you want to make a lot of investment in a country, you do not want the government to nationalize the industry (a la Venezuela). Fourth, we have an abundance of water. That will make it difficult for many chemical plants from operating overseas when the cost of water goes up. Fifth, a lot of the barriers we have created for businesses we have made ourselves. When you have industries that use water that need to put it back to the environment cleaner than it was coming into the plant to begin with, there is something wrong.

What we need to do as a country is play these things up. In the case of resources, it will actually work to our benefit that the price of oil is up. Why? Because transporting those resources abroad costs more than the savings on labor. Therefore, for many industries it is better to produce the goods here. Unfortunately, there are governmental barriers in place that prohibit this or make the costs prohibitive to the return. However, we are in much better shape than Europe in all ways except one. We do not have as highly an educated work force. That is a function of our society. We need to begin to glorify being smart. Make it chic to be smart. Then, you won't have as many people waste their skills (like me) who could have been doing a lot greater things than they are.

[Tekneek]

The issue is the education of the workforce? For a decade, all the talk was that we needed more computer science grads and what happened after they all started pouring out of the schools? A lot of their jobs went offshore. I know the education argument has some validity, but it isn't the primary driver.

Our cost-of-living in this nation is such that we simply cannot work for what Indians will. I know lots of people that lost their IT jobs over the past couple of years and Indians are being paid $10k a year (yes, I know this for a fact) to replace the labor. Working for $10k a year won't get you very far in this nation. People in the USA simply cannot afford to be competitive. Even if you offer to work for that, and a friend of mine offered my employer that challenge, they still won't keep you on. He told them he would stay on for at least a year working for the same amount they would pay an Indian and they declined. Even when we try to offer "competitive labor" we don't get to keep the job.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Approval ratings?! Aren't they a part of STATISTICS?! Didn't Mike Ditka say something about that?!

The fact is - statistics can lie, but 99% of them don't. Saying statistics is worthless is like saying I'll never trust reporters because one time in college I didn't get the "by" line when I should have. :)

Not just one time. :mad:

Never said they were completly worthless.I utilize them extensivly for:FOF,FM,CM,OOTP,EHM :) Said they could be skewed for whatever reason.