New England Patriots

[Galaril]

Being from Boston and not being a Pats fan gives me asense of separation of the Pats love fest among most NewEnglanders. It is interesting listening to the local media here point out how amazing it is that most people seem to be bitterly against the Pats, who to Pats fans are the nicest, clean-cut allamerican types you could find:rolleyes:

Any ways what do people here think of the Pats wining the SB this year if they get by the last two games?

[Greyroofoo]

Patsies - tEh SuXxoRS!!!!!!111!!!!1!!

[CamEdwards]

I'm a Patriots fan, but I honestly won't be upset if the Saints were to win the Super Bowl. I love a good underdog story.

Now if it's Pats/Bears I want to see the Pats humiliate the Bears. And if the Colts make it, may the NFC win, no matter what the team.

[Swaggs]

Strangely, I don't mind New England's offensive players, but really dislike their defensive guys. I like how Brady and Brown just take care of business, but get tired of hearing guys like Bruschi talk about how no one respects them and, I think, their defense can be pretty dirty at times.

[miami_fan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070119

[ISiddiqui]

From the article:

Wait a second ... am I rooting for the football version of the Yankees?

Yep, SportsGuy. Yes you are.

[Synovia]

From the article:



Yep, SportsGuy. Yes you are.

The football version of the yankees? Thats such crap. The Yankees have won 27 world series out of a total of about 100. The Pats have won 3 superbowls out of a total of 40+. If anyone is the football version of the yankees, its the steelers.


The Pats also spent roughly 30 years being the worst team in football.

[ISiddiqui]

The football version of the yankees? Thats such crap. The Yankees have won 27 world series out of a total of about 100. The Pats have won 3 superbowls out of a total of 40+. If anyone is the football version of the yankees, its the steelers.

You are missing the comparison entirely.

[Synovia]

" banged-up underdog that persevered simply by playing well together, by being well-coached and well-prepared"


again, definitely not the yankees. The comparison doesnt make any sense.

[WelshWizard]

I am from Boston and i am a Patriots fan. Don't even mention us as the football version of the Yankees :mad: ........lol

Anyway, i can understand the neutral fan the would dread to see the Patriots win another Superbowl. Heck i could not stand it when the 49ers kept winning. However i could not help but enjoy watching Joe "Mr Cool" Montana win with ease and then to watch him hand over the torch to Steve Young and they don't miss a beat.

This Patriots team has to be admired for what it has accomplished in these days of salary cap and free agency. Not signing Branch to an extended contract and letting him go and getting a first round pick out of it (some would say arrogance, and maybe so but boy that is looking like a damn good trade right now). We suffered through a humiliating defeat against the Bears in 86. We suffered another defeat to the Packers in 96 and we in New England will savor every bit of success we can get as we know it will not be here forever. What Brady has managed to do this season with what really is a weak set of Wide Receivers is fantastic. Our secondary is banged up yet we keep plugging guys in there and they make plays.

I can take all the hatred people have out there for the Patriots, lets face it every winner is hated because we all wish it was our team. I am going to enjoy this as long as it lasts.

GO PATS!!! Bring home another one boys.

[WelshWizard]

Strangely, I don't mind New England's offensive players, but really dislike their defensive guys. I like how Brady and Brown just take care of business, but get tired of hearing guys like Bruschi talk about how no one respects them and, I think, their defense can be pretty dirty at times.

Well, in fairness to Bruschi, no matter how many times the Patriots keep shutting up the naysayers, they keep coming back dogging the Patriots. Players will find whatever angle they can to motivate themselves and prove people wrong, so to the media keep giving Bruschi and co the amunition it needs. I would say the Patriots are a very physical defense that gets results.

[ISiddiqui]

" banged-up underdog that persevered simply by playing well together, by being well-coached and well-prepared"


again, definitely not the yankees. The comparison doesnt make any sense.

Please try to look outside of your Patriots coccoon and try to actually understand WHY people hate the Yankees. And it isn't because they are "New York" and it started well before they had all the money they have now (and if it was about NY and money, the Mets would be almost equally hated, but they aren't).

[Lathum]

I think it's a silly comparason. The Yankess's operate in a system where they along with a few other teams have a huge advantage over the rest of the league. I think the fact the Yankee;s haven't won a title the last 5 years is surprising. The fact the Pat's consistently win despite exisiting in a system that strives for every team to be 8-8 every ear is nothing short of amazing and I say they deserve it.

[sabotai]

I would say the Redskins are the Yankees of the NFL. Problem is, going around and just trying to buy up the biggest names simply doesn't work in football. (The oft repeated "The Redskins always win in the offseason.")

As for the Pats vs. Indy, I don't mind if NE wins, but I am pulling for Indy and Manning getting a Super Bowl win.

[SteveMax58]

I'm a Giants fan, and since the Eagles have been eliminated, it doesnt really matter to me who wins at this point. Saints would be a nice story...Peyton getting it done would sorta ok...the Bears, meh, I guess I'm still a little bitter how we lost to them on Monday night.

But the Patriots...I have a deep respect & admiration for teams that persevere & do not "get fat" after winning titles(not to mention Belichick's work with the Giants). 4 titles in 6 years?? That would be an accomplishment up there with the 70's Steelers...and that is greatness. So it wouldnt bother me to see greatness achieved this year.

[Swaggs]

I would nominate the Cowboys as the "Yankees of the NFL."

[Synovia]

Well, in fairness to Bruschi, no matter how many times the Patriots keep shutting up the naysayers, they keep coming back dogging the Patriots. Players will find whatever angle they can to motivate themselves and prove people wrong, so to the media keep giving Bruschi and co the amunition it needs. I would say the Patriots are a very physical defense that gets results.
Exactly, people think the patriots whine about 'no respect' for no reason.

But look at this year... 2nd straight week theyre the underdog. People were picking the Jets to beat them... the jets aren't even a decent team.

Same thing in 2003/2004. People keep picking Indy to win the whole thing everyyear, and overlooking the pats.

[ISiddiqui]

I would nominate the Cowboys as the "Yankees of the NFL."

They do have one of the major annoyances of the Yankees (arrogant, annoying fans), but haven't come close to winning anything in years. The Yankees have made it into the playoffs even though they didn't get the major prize.

[ISiddiqui]

But look at this year... 2nd straight week theyre the underdog.

Errr.. how many times does the road team get favored in a 2nd or 3rd round playoff matchup (especially in a 2nd round game where you are playing the #1 seed?!)? Did the fans of the Steelers whine endlessly last year that they got no respect? No, they used the "underdog" tag but didn't focus on it to the point of utter annoyance.

So yeah, that's whining for no reason. Pats fans seem to think an entirely new set of rules should apply to them in these matters.

[Alan T]

I would nominate the Cowboys as the "Yankees of the NFL."

Maybe its because I've been a life long falcons fan, but I always pictured the 49ers as the yankees of the NFL. The way they just kept winning through the 80s and early 90s. The way they maneuvered around the system to create a team that kept going.

I have to say I am thankful the NFL has done a better job of removing the loopholes that teams like the 49ers and cowboys exploited. If Baseball would do the same, I think it would do wonders.

For this poll, I put i don't care if they win or lose. I actually enjoy watching the Patriots, I've been in awe of their system for a while. I would personally prefer seeing a Pats vs Saints super bowl I think. Not sure it matters to me at that point who would win.

[Alan T]

Errr.. how many times does the road team get favored in a 2nd or 3rd round playoff matchup (especially in a 2nd round game where you are playing the #1 seed?!)?

So yeah, that's whining for no reason. Pats fans seem to think an entirely new set of rules should apply to them in these matters.

I personally think it is different. I think that Pats fans are viewing it as year to year, where others view this year as a seperate entity. Pats fans say, "we've won so many years in a row and 11-1. Who cares if the Colts won against us this year or are the home team or such, we should be expected to win right now." Colts fans say, "We've proven we could beat the Pats earlier this year, we had the better seed and we are at home, we should be expected to win".

I personally don't find Pats fans annoying at all. Maybe after my few years of living in Dallas during the late 90s and having to endure -those- fans I really have no problem handling Pats fans now. I personally would rate Raiders fans from the 80s more annoying as well as the Green Bay badnwagon crowd that formed in the 90s (Who mostly became suddenly Rams fans in the early 2000s). Most pats fans that I deal with seem to be lifelong fans who finally enjoy their team winning.

[Synovia]

I would say the Redskins are the Yankees of the NFL. Problem is, going around and just trying to buy up the biggest names simply doesn't work in football. (The oft repeated "The Redskins always win in the offseason.")

As for the Pats vs. Indy, I don't mind if NE wins, but I am pulling for Indy and Manning getting a Super Bowl win.


I gotta agree here. They buy big names instead of developing talent.

If anything, the Patriots are the Athletics of football. Continually competitive with a completely homegrown staff.

[st.cronin]

Yes, the Patriots are the football version of the Yankees. After this year, they'll be signing Peyton Manning, Jason Taylor, and Ray Lewis as free agents, then they're going to trade a 5th round pick to New Orleans for Reggie Bush, since they won't be able to afford his contract.

Gimme a frickin' break.

[wade moore]

I'm a Colts fan. And unlike the common thought, I do not hate the Pats - not even close. I want the Colts to win, but if they lose to the Pats, I'd have no problem with the Pats winning the whole thing.

[terpkristin]

Crap, is there any way to re-vote? I mis-read the question. I'd like to see a Pats-Saints Superbowl and then a good part of me would like to see the Saints win it all, given what NO went through. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Pats fan, but this year, I'm OK cheering for the Saints.

/tk

[Galaril]

I have to partly agree that generally speaking the Patriots fans are the Yankee fans of the NFL. I luv how a player like Rodney Harrison, one of the dirtiest players in NFL history, from what most fellow NFL players have been saying for years, gets on the Pats and the spin is he a "hard-nosed, lunch pail guy". Just too much Homer for my liking I guess. And though the media like WEEI, play up the whole disrespected the Pats are not underdogs against ANYONE in the playoffs.

[ISiddiqui]

I have to partly agree that generally speaking the Patriots fans are the Yankee fans of the NFL. I luv how a player like Rodney Harrison, one of the dirtiest players in NFL history, from what most fellow NFL players have been saying for years, gets on the Pats and the spin is he a "hard-nosed, lunch pail guy". Just too much Homer for my liking I guess. And though the media like WEEI, play up the whole disrespected the Pats are not underdogs against ANYONE in the playoffs.

And that's the point. This money thing is a red herring. The Yanks weren't overspending ridiculously in the 50s and 60s, but I don't think they were loved back then. I mean Hell, the film "Damn Yankees" (based on the play, of course) was released in 1958!

[Synovia]

I luv how a player like Rodney Harrison, one of the dirtiest players in NFL history, from what most fellow NFL players have been saying for years,


Are you talkign about that same survey yhat had a vote for Brady? The same survey that had a 22 votes for a punter? That same survey that had a kick returner as one of the dirtiest players in football? GIve me a friggin break.

That was all about reputation. Michael Vick has a reputation of being a good quarterback, and we all knwo that isnt true. Rodney Harrison hasnt played enough football in the last 3 years to be one of the dirtiest playesr in the NFL

[cuervo72]

" banged-up underdog that persevered simply by playing well together, by being well-coached and well-prepared"


again, definitely not the yankees. The comparison doesnt make any sense.

Well, the supposition that they are the underdog is wrong I think. This franchise has won 3 super bowls in the past five years. They are the underdog how, exactly? Sure, they don't always have the best record in the conference and they aren't always flashy, but that's Belichik's MO. SG also says something to the effect of "how can you NOT root for these guys?" Easy. But it's the mentality of their fans - the fact that they can't understand folks not caring about them, not rooting for them - that makes them the Yankees.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm a Colts fan. And unlike the common thought, I do not hate the Pats - not even close. I want the Colts to win, but if they lose to the Pats, I'd have no problem with the Pats winning the whole thing.

and I'm a Pats fan who will root for the Colts if they win...as long as my mother in law doesn't catch me. :D

The Pats are hated because they are at the top of the heap, just like the Steelers, Cowboys, Dolphins and 49ers were reviled in their heydays. It's natural. I don't think player personality, obnoxious fans, or overblown media is a factor at all.

When this dynasty has ended, and there's another big dog, everyone (except fans of that team) will hate them too.

[Draft Dodger]

But it's the mentality of their fans - the fact that they can't understand folks not caring about them, not rooting for them - that makes them the Yankees.

Nah.
The Yanks are a polarizer. People generally either love them or loathe them - not many people are neutral to them. Again, just like all the big dynasty football teams. That's where the Pats are now - people HAVE to make a decision about them because of their success.

[wade moore]

and I'm a Pats fan who will root for the Colts if they win...as long as my mother in law doesn't catch me. :D

The Pats are hated because they are at the top of the heap, just like the Steelers, Cowboys, Dolphins and 49ers were reviled in their heydays. It's natural. I don't think player personality, obnoxious fans, or overblown media is a factor at all.

When this dynasty has ended, and there's another big dog, everyone (except fans of that team) will hate them too.

Yup. Yeah, Pats fans can be obnoxious.. I don't necessarily think that much more obnoxious than fans of other teams that are in the middle of a dynasty, so I won't begrudge them for that...

[Buccaneer]

Cowboys == Yankees
Patriots == Red Sox
Colts == Braves
Redskins == Cubs ?
Steelers == Cardinals
Raiders == ?

[st.cronin]

In 2001, my career had fallen apart and my fiancee had left me for another man. I was inches away from becoming homeless. Then, of course, 9/11 and most of my closest friends were killed. But when the Patriots won the Super Bowl that year, it was the most uplifting, incredible thing you can imagine. It transported me back to my adolescence, where I would watch football with my grandfather (RIP), and my friends, and over lunch at school we would talk about Andre Tippett :D and Irving Fryar :mad: and how hopeless the team (usually) was.

That's why I root for the Patriots, and why I could never imagine rooting for another team. I don't care about the haters; most of the things they say aren't true, and anyway I hate the Yankees and the Mets so I can understand what it means to hate a team. I don't really care if anybody is rooting for or against the Patriots, or if anybody thinks I'm silly and sentimental for attaching so much importance to a team. It's about me and the connection they provide to my adolescence and the happiest times of my life.

[Synovia]

And that's the point. This money thing is a red herring. The Yanks weren't overspending ridiculously in the 50s and 60s, but I don't think they were loved back then. I mean Hell, the film "Damn Yankees" (based on the play, of course) was released in 1958!


You have to be kidding me. The Yankees BOUGHT Babe Ruth from the Sox becuase no one else could AFFORD to pay him what he wanted to be paid. They paid the Sox $125K in 1920. Do you knwo what $125K was worth in 1920? The yankees bought almost the entire red sox roster during a 5 year period. They bought almost the entire athletics roster in the 50s.

They've been throwing around ungodly amounts of money since before Ruth.

[Synovia]

Well, the supposition that they are the underdog is wrong I think. This franchise has won 3 super bowls in the past five years. They are the underdog how, exactly? Sure, they don't always have the best record in the conference and they aren't always flashy, but that's Belichik's MO. SG also says something to the effect of "how can you NOT root for these guys?" Easy.
Theyre the underdog because sports pundits, and the people who decide who is the underdog, VEGAS, keep picking against them. I dont get how people dont understand that.

They've been the underdog in a good deal of the games they've made during their SB runs. All the games in 2001 (deservedly), half in 2003, Indy and Pitt in 2004, and now SD and Indy in 2006.

[Draft Dodger]

Theyre the underdog because sports pundits, and the people who decide who is the underdog, VEGAS, keep picking against them. I dont get how people dont understand that.

maybe it's the punctuation and sentence structure?

[Synovia]

maybe it's the punctuation and sentence structure?

Grow up.

[miami_fan]

The Pats are hated because they are at the top of the heap, just like the Steelers, Cowboys, Dolphins and 49ers were reviled in their heydays. It's natural. I don't think player personality, obnoxious fans, or overblown media is a factor at all.

When this dynasty has ended, and there's another big dog, everyone (except fans of that team) will hate them too.


So simple and yet so complex to comprehend.

[ISiddiqui]

You have to be kidding me. The Yankees BOUGHT Babe Ruth from the Sox becuase no one else could AFFORD to pay him what he wanted to be paid. They paid the Sox $125K in 1920. Do you knwo what $125K was worth in 1920? The yankees bought almost the entire red sox roster during a 5 year period. They bought almost the entire athletics roster in the 50s.

They've been throwing around ungodly amounts of money since before Ruth.

LOL!! I love how myths are built up. Anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Frazee


The truth is somewhat more nuanced and dates to a long-running dispute between Frazee and American League founder and president Ban Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Johnson) (see below). The dispute finally boiled over in the summer of 1919 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919) when pitcher Carl Mays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Mays) jumped the team. Johnson ordered him suspended, but Frazee instead sold him to the then-moribund Yankees. Johnson had promised Yankee owners Jacob Ruppert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ruppert) and Cap Huston to get them better players, but never followed through. The Mays flap divided the American League into two factions--the Yankees, Red Sox and White Sox on one side and the other five clubs, known as the "Loyal Five," on the other.


Under the circumstances, when Frazee finally lost patience with Ruth (see below), his options were severely limited. Under pressure from Johnson, the Loyal Five rejected Frazee's overtures almost out of hand. In effect, Johnson limited Frazee to dealing with either the White Sox or the Yankees. The White Sox offered Joe Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jackson) and $60,000, but the Yankees offered an all-cash deal--$100,000. Frazee, Ruppert and Huston quickly cut a deal, and Ruth became the property of the Yankees on December 26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_26), 1919 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919).

What, are the White Sox historically known for throwing around gobs of money because they offered $60,000 and Joe Jackson in their proposal? I'm sure if the loyal 5 were willing to get in on it, they could have offered Yankees type money.



Popular legend holds that the Ruppert loan forced Frazee to trade nearly every player of value to the Yankees for literally nothing in return, running the team into the ground. In truth, the "Loyal Five" refused to make any deals with Frazee even after Ruth left for the Bronx. With the White Sox' reputation in tatters following the Black Sox Scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal), Frazee was left with little choice but to deal with the Yankees. While the trades were not seen as particularly one-sided at the time, a turn of luck made them look like Yankee heists. While the players sent to New York were often stiffs who turned into stars, the ones sent to Boston suffered a rash of injuries.

[Synovia]

Issidqui, thats interesting. The yankees page on Wiki says something totally different.

[Synovia]

"
After the sale of Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth) to the Yankees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Yankees), Frazee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Frazee) continued to sell many of his star players. In the winter of 1920, Wally Schang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Schang), future star pitcher Waite Hoyt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waite_Hoyt), Harry Harper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harper), and Mike McNally (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_McNally&action=edit) were traded to the Yankees for Del Pratt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Pratt), Muddy Ruel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muddy_Ruel), John Costello (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Costello), Hank Thormahlen (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hank_Thormahlen&action=edit), Sammy Vick (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sammy_Vick&action=edit) and cash. [6] (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/Schang_Wally.stm) The following winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_in_baseball), iron man shortstop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortstop) Everett Scott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_Scott), Joe Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bush), and Sad Sam Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_Sam_Jones) were traded to the Yankees for Roger Peckinpaugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Peckinpaugh) (who would be immediately shipped to the Washington Senators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Twins)), Jack Quinn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Quinn), Rip Collins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Collins), Bill Piercy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bill_Piercy&action=edit) and $50,000. [7] (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/Scott_Everett.stm) One particularly controversial deal was that of Joe Dugan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Dugan) and Elmer Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Smith), who were traded to the Yankees on July 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_23), 1922, for Elmer Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elmer_Miller&action=edit), Chick Fewster (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chick_Fewster&action=edit), John Mitchell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchell), and future superstar Lefty O'Doul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefty_O%27Doul), who was at the time a mediocre pitching prospect. The trade of Dugan helped the Yankees edge the St. Louis Browns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Orioles) in a tight pennant race, and the resulting uproar helped create a June 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15) trading deadline that went into effect the next year. [8] (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/Smith_Elmer309.stm) Perhaps an even more outrageous deal was the trade of Herb Pennock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Pennock), occurring in early 1923. Pennock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Pennock) was traded by the Red Sox to the Yankees for Camp Skinner (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camp_Skinner&action=edit), Norm McMillan (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norm_McMillan&action=edit), George Murray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Murray) and $50,000. [9] (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pennohe01.shtml#TRANS)
A couple of notable trades involving Frazee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Frazee) and the Yankees occurred before the Babe Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth) sale. On December 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_18), 1918, outstanding outfielder Duffy Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duffy_Lewis) (mentioned above), pitcher Dutch Leonard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Leonard_%28left-handed_pitcher%29), and pitcher Ernie Shore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Shore) were traded to the Yankees for pitcher Ray Caldwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Caldwell), Slim Love (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slim_Love&action=edit), Roxy Walters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxy_Walters), Frank Gilhooley (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frank_Gilhooley&action=edit) and $15,000. [10] (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/L/Lewis_Duffy.stm) As all three players were well-regarded in Boston — Lewis had been a key player on the 1910s championship teams, Shore had famously relieved Babe Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth) and retired 27 straight, and Leonard had only four years before set a modern record for earned run average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_run_average) — this trade was regarded as not such a good one in Boston, Then, on July 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_13), 1919, submarine-style pitching star Carl Mays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Mays) was traded to the Yankees for Bob McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_McGraw&action=edit), Allan Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allan_Russell&action=edit) and $40,000. [11] (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/Mays_Carl.stm) Mays would go on to have several good years for the Yankees."

[st.cronin]

Regardless of the details of any one deal, there is no argument that the Yankees in the 50s and beyond were operating on anything close to equal financial footing with the rest of the league. Their natural advantages were enormous. It just doesn't compare to the Patriots situation at all.

[molson]

The Pats are hated because they are at the top of the heap, just like the Steelers, Cowboys, Dolphins and 49ers were reviled in their heydays. It's natural. I don't think player personality, obnoxious fans, or overblown media is a factor at all.

When this dynasty has ended, and there's another big dog, everyone (except fans of that team) will hate them too.

This is the simple and correct answer.

The "obnoxious fan" thing is just so old and groundless (unless you're just talking about the bandwagon fans, who are usually the ones you're running into in Texas and Virginia).

If the Lions suddenly go on a super bowl run over the next 5-6 years, I guarantee their fans will be considered "obnoxious".

[ISiddiqui]

Regardless of the details of any one deal, there is no argument that the Yankees in the 50s and beyond were operating on anything close to equal financial footing with the rest of the league. Their natural advantages were enormous. It just doesn't compare to the Patriots situation at all.

And so in the 50s the hatred of the Yankees was based on them having more money?

Like I said, money is a red herring. People hate the Yankees for far more than having more cash and always have.

[molson]

Like I said, money is a red herring. People hate the Yankees for far more than having more cash and always have.

Would you mind stating these reasons that you seem to think are so obvious? You haven't done that yet.

I used to hate "Yankee fans" as a New Englander, but after spending so much time with them at games and after I moved to New York, I realized that was basically retarded. They're the same as us, expect they happened to grow up a few hours south. (And their team had success that I wished my team did).

[st.cronin]

And so in the 50s the hatred of the Yankees was based on them having more money?

Like I said, money is a red herring. People hate the Yankees for far more than having more cash and always have.

My point is just that calling the Patriots the Yankees of football makes no sense. The Patriots fans did not grow up entitled.

[ISiddiqui]

My point is just that calling the Patriots the Yankees of football makes no sense. The Patriots fans did not grow up entitled.

And my point is that you and other Pats fans aren't getting that the comparison doesn't involve money. They aren't making a one to one comparison. They aren't saying they are exactly the same in every aspect.

[CraigSca]

I hope they win THIS GAME, but only because I'm a disgruntled former Baltimore Colts fan.

[st.cronin]

And my point is that you and other Pats fans aren't getting that the comparison doesn't involve money. They aren't making a one to one comparison. They aren't saying they are exactly the same in every aspect.

Speaking just for myself, any conversation about the Yankees that doesn't involve money is just nonsense. The Yankees = $.

[ISiddiqui]

Would you mind stating these reasons that you seem to think are so obvious? You haven't done that yet.

Three reason (though the last reason has come into vogue recently)

1) They win a lot. Of course any team that loses a ton is not going to be hated... unless they won a bunch right before that and were hated.

2) Obnoxious fans. Perhaps it is common to most dynasties, but it seems to come out more with the Yanks. An idea that no matter what, they'll win everything and anyone that disagrees are 'haters'. The idea that Jeter is "clutch" no matter what the stats guys say (I even had someone told me the stats are purposely slanted against the Yankees... I think my jaw was on the floor for the next 24 hours). Though yes, a lot of it may be due to bandwagon fans; there is always that possibility.

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).

Now in the NFL you can't do the money thing these days. But 1 and 2 work for the Pats. The "we don't get any respect" thing because the oddsmakers said we weren't the favorites even though we are the road team in the Divisional Round against the #1 seed in the better conference stuff just makes #2 that much greater than, say, with other dynasties. At least Cowboys fans, 49er fans didn't speak of being 'not respected' 100 times during every playoff.

Though as said earlier by someone else, it generally has little to do with the offensive players. A lot of times it seems to be the defensive players, who get the fans going on such nonsense.

[st.cronin]

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).


If by recently you mean around the time they signed Catfish Hunter, maybe. The Yankees have been known as far and away the richest baseball team for as long as I've been following sports, at least.

[Synovia]

And my point is that you and other Pats fans aren't getting that the comparison doesn't involve money. They aren't making a one to one comparison. They aren't saying they are exactly the same in every aspect.
Theres no comparison between the yankees and Pats that does make sense though.

[ISiddiqui]

In 1996 and 1998, when they won World Series, they had a smaller payroll than the Baltimore Orioles. Hell, in 1998, it was over $5 million less than the Orioles. The Yankees started pulling away a bit after that (1999 they weren't spending all that much) as young stars started to get older and ask for bigger contracts and going on free agent splurgs (as Steinbrenner reasserted control).

[ISiddiqui]

Theres no comparison between the yankees and Pats that does make sense though.

'Cause you are a Patriots homer (though as stated before that extent of homerism does seem to find a home in the Yankees fanbase as well)

[st.cronin]

In 1996 and 1998, when they won World Series, they had a smaller payroll than the Baltimore Orioles. Hell, in 1998, it was over $5 million less than the Orioles. The Yankees started pulling away a bit after that (1999 they weren't spending all that much) as young stars started to get older and ask for bigger contracts and going on free agent splurgs (as Steinbrenner reasserted control).

Oh dear god, just stop.

[Synovia]

'Cause you are a Patriots homer (though as stated before that extent of homerism does seem to find a home in the Yankees fanbase as well)
Please explain how the Patriots and Yankees are similar.

[molson]

Please explain how the Patriots and Yankees are similar.

I already asked that - I don't think he has any idea. It's just somehow derogatory to make the comparison, so he's doing it.

Edit - I missed the list above - money, winning, and fans. It just seemed like he was hinting at something else.

[st.cronin]

The Atlanta Braves would be a much better comparison. Generally an apathetic fan base, very little history of success, and then out of nowhere a string of championship seasons.

[Galaril]

Are you talkign about that same survey yhat had a vote for Brady? The same survey that had a 22 votes for a punter? That same survey that had a kick returner as one of the dirtiest players in football? GIve me a friggin break.

That was all about reputation. Michael Vick has a reputation of being a good quarterback, and we all knwo that isnt true. Rodney Harrison hasnt played enough football in the last 3 years to be one of the dirtiest playesr in the NFL

Synovia,

One question: Was the hit on Harrison by the Titans Wade "dirty" or not, in your opinion?.........
I am already guessing your answer, but thought I would ask;)

[Galaril]

maybe it's the punctuation and sentence structure?

:D

[AlexB]

Synovia,

One question: Was the hit on Harrison by the Titans Wade "dirty" or not, in your opinion?.........
I am already guessing your answer, but thought I would ask;)

As a Dolphins fan - that hit wasn't dirty. The fact that for some reason Harrison wasn;t expecting it doesn't make it dirty: it was above the knee and legit.

Much as it pains me to admit it, I quite like watching the Pats play (one Miami have officilally eliminated themsleves you understand) - Brady is quality, Troy Brown & Mike Vrabel the only effective two way players I can think of in todays NFL, Seymour, Wilfork & Samuel are class, and the others might be cogs in a machine, but it's one helluva machine.

Plus they deserve respect for acknowledging the fact that their old logo looked like a camp Errol Flynn...

[Synovia]

Three reason (though the last reason has come into vogue recently)

1) They win a lot. Of course any team that loses a ton is not going to be hated... unless they won a bunch right before that and were hated.

2) Obnoxious fans. Perhaps it is common to most dynasties, but it seems to come out more with the Yanks. An idea that no matter what, they'll win everything and anyone that disagrees are 'haters'. The idea that Jeter is "clutch" no matter what the stats guys say (I even had someone told me the stats are purposely slanted against the Yankees... I think my jaw was on the floor for the next 24 hours). Though yes, a lot of it may be due to bandwagon fans; there is always that possibility.

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).

Now in the NFL you can't do the money thing these days. But 1 and 2 work for the Pats. The "we don't get any respect" thing because the oddsmakers said we weren't the favorites even though we are the road team in the Divisional Round against the #1 seed in the better conference stuff just makes #2 that much greater than, say, with other dynasties. At least Cowboys fans, 49er fans didn't speak of being 'not respected' 100 times during every playoff.

Though as said earlier by someone else, it generally has little to do with the offensive players. A lot of times it seems to be the defensive players, who get the fans going on such nonsense.

So the Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, Colts, Chargers, etc, all Are just as much the Yankees as the Pats.

[VPI97]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

[st.cronin]

My guess is that the Patriots had one of the smallest fan bases in America before 2001. So they may have more than their share of "bandwagon" fans.

[WelshWizard]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.


So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

[Raiders Army]

In recent years, I've thought the Redskins and Yankees held more likenesses due to their spending to get big names or the "flava" of the month.

[Raiders Army]

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

As far as I understand it, all fans have assholes...even if they have a colostomy bag.

[WelshWizard]

As far as I understand it, all fans have assholes...even if they have a colostomy bag.

Good one! :D

[AlexB]

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???...

Close.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=winner

[miami_fan]

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.:D

[WelshWizard]

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.:D

Well i didn't say that. Lets not get carried away :D .

[st.cronin]

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.:D

Yankees fans aren't assholes, they're just pathetic.

[Schmidty]

Patriots who?

Not even on my radar, and I couldn't care less if they existed or not.

[WVUFAN]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

Nah, it's just that the Pats are winners for the most part, and others view through their visors of jealousy<nobr></nobr> (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuujz0LJFJIAB28RXNyoA/SIG=16m221a0k/EXP=1169433203/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fp=jealousy%26sp=1%26fr2=sp-top%26fr=yfp-t-501%26toggle=1%26cop=mss%26ei=UTF-8%26ei=UTF-8%26SpellState=n-2664418401_q-a%252FPpG1dQN282b6dwL8%252F7AgAAAA%2540%2540) and see bad fans.

But, then again, as a Chokie fan, you're not used to being around winners, are you? ;) (kidding, kidding)

[molson]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

You live in Georgia? How many Patriots fans do you come in contact with that haven't just jumped the bandwagon the last few years? Maybe you just hate Northerners?

[st.cronin]

You live in Georgia? How many Patriots fans do you come in contact with that haven't just jumped the bandwagon the last few years?

I would suspect practically none. Heck, growing up in New England I probably knew more Giants fans than Patriots fans.

[jeff061]

Yep, looking over this thread(and most others), it's definitely the Pats fans that are obnoxious :rolleyes:.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

As its been stated. Winning teams are hated if you are not a fan of the team. I do it all the time. In 2003, I was cheering hard for the Buckeyes against Miami. Why? They were the underdog. Then this year I was cheering hard for Florida against the Buckeyes. Why? They were the underdog. And this is the same Florida team I was cheering hard against back in the 1990s as they drove on to their National Championship. I cheered against the Packers and the Cowboys in the 90s and against the 49ers in the 80s.

I really do think that's what it comes down to. For that reason, I fully understand non-Pats fans cheering against the Pats hard.

[ISiddiqui]

My guess is that the Patriots had one of the smallest fan bases in America before 2001. So they may have more than their share of "bandwagon" fans.

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.

[Synovia]

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.
Thats funny, most of the 49ers fans I know jumped on during the Montana/Young days. Young fans tend to attach themselves to winners.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

I'm a Steelers fan, and I think most of us are assholes. But, for the most part, we're not bandwagon fans.

I hate bandwagon fans. That's one of the reasons I hate the Patriots (the others being Golden Boy Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, and the fact that they got rid of one of my favorite logos in sports for the Flying Elvis).

[Karim]

I like Belichek (sp?), Brady and can't stand Manning. Yeah, I hope the Pats win the SB.

[Synovia]

Every team has bandwagon fans, and the steelers probably have more than the Pats.

Remember how well the steelers "travel?" Most of that is out of area fans, most of whom are bandwagon fans.

[Crapshoot]

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.

I'm convinced that 90% of the Pats "diehards" couldn't name the QB before Tom Brady (this from living in Boston). The Red Sox are a love affair - the Pats are a passing fashion.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Every team has bandwagon fans, and the steelers probably have more than the Pats.

Remember how well the steelers "travel?" Most of that is out of area fans, most of whom are bandwagon fans.

How do you figure? I see Steelers fans all the time, even when they aren't doing well. Don't forget, prior to last year the last Super Bowl they won was in 1980. Those aren't bandwagon fans. A lot of people might have become Steelers fans because of the 1970s, but they have remained loyal to the team. Hence the large number of fans at road games.

[Synovia]

I'm convinced that 90% of the Pats "diehards" couldn't name the QB before Tom Brady (this from living in Boston). The Red Sox are a love affair - the Pats are a passing fashion.
Cmon, everyone could name Bledsoe.


Most couldnt name the guy before him though(grogan), or the guy who Brady leapfrogged on the depth chart in 2001(Damon Huard)

[Synovia]

How do you figure? I see Steelers fans all the time, even when they aren't doing well. Don't forget, prior to last year the last Super Bowl they won was in 1980. Those aren't bandwagon fans. A lot of people might have become Steelers fans because of the 1970s, but they have remained loyal to the team. Hence the large number of fans at road games.
They became fans because of the superbowl runs. That means they were bandwagon fans. They just didnt jump off when the team started doing poorly.Who says the new Pats fans will?

[st.cronin]

Cmon, everyone could name Bledsoe.


Most couldnt name the guy before him though(grogan), or the guy who Brady leapfrogged on the depth chart in 2001(Damon Huard)

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.

[ISiddiqui]

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.

HA HA! That was just classic :D.

Hugh Millen was the starting QB before Bledsoe. Grogan's last year with the Pats was 1990, though Marc Wilson was the starter then while Grogan was a backup.

[Synovia]

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.
Check your stats

Grogan played till 1990. 1991 and 1992 were basically quarterback by commitee with everyone from Millen, to Scott Zolak getting legitimate time. Bledsoe was drafted in 93. So I'd say Grogan was the last QB before bledsoe.

[ISiddiqui]

Check your stats

Grogan played till 1990. 1991 and 1992 were basically quarterback by commitee with everyone from Millen, to Scott Zolak getting legitimate time. Bledsoe was drafted in 93. So I'd say Grogan was the last QB before bledsoe.

No, he's right. In 1991, Millen had 409 attempts while Tom Hodson had 68 attempts. In 1992, either Millen got benched or hurt, so he only had 203 attempts, Zolak had 100 attempts, and Hodson had 91 attempts with Jeff Carlson with 49 attempts.

409 attempts in a season is enough to make the QB for a team.

[st.cronin]

All I know is I watched way too many games with Hugh Millen as the QB back then. Holy god, that guy was awful.

[molson]

All I know is I watched way too many games with Hugh Millen as the QB back then. Holy god, that guy was awful.

He did have some memorable games in Dick McPherson's first year as coach. The Pats went 6-10 that year and I remember everyone in Boston was fired up. That was a successful year back then.

[Synovia]

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.


Millen was a stopgap. He was never meant to be the starter.

[st.cronin]

He did have some memorable games in Dick McPherson's first year as coach. The Pats went 6-10 that year and I remember everyone in Boston was fired up. That was a successful year back then.

There was definitely some Millen-hype at one point. But it was pretty delusional, sort of like the Cubs getting all excited about Kyle Orton last year.

[molson]

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.

Millen was a stopgap. He was never meant to be the starter.

Not true, after his first year as a starter, Boston was truly expecting a playoff run in year #2. People were genuinely excited about him. I spent a lot of time at the Pats training camp in Smithfield, RI before that second season, everyone definitly thought the Pats were back, with Millen leading the way.

Of course, then they went 2-14, fired McPherson and hired Parcels.

[molson]

There was definitely some Millen-hype at one point. But it was pretty delusional, sort of like the Cubs getting all excited about Kyle Orton last year.

No question it was delusional - Boston was so desperate for the Pats to be good at that point, they were rallying around Hugh freaking Millen, and to a lesser extent, even Scott Zolak when he had a few good games the next year (remember how everyone loved how animated he and McPherson were after a win, running around and hugging everyone)?

Edit- And I'm pretty sure Grogan wasn't really the "starting QB" since the late 70s - I think Tony Eason came after him as well.

[st.cronin]

I'm sorry, I have completely forgotten about Scott Zolak. . My earliest Pats memories are with Ray Berry as the coach, and McPherson was quite the step down from him. I was a pretty depressed fan in those days.

[ISiddiqui]

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.

He most definately was for most of the year. Cutler played in 5 games. FIVE. Plummer started the others.

[Synovia]

He most definately was for most of the year. Cutler played in 5 games. FIVE. Plummer started the others.

Plummer played because Cutler wasnt ready, not because he was the preferred starter.

[stevew]

The Skins are the football version of the Yankees. Storied history, but since they starting trying to buy championships it has backfired.

[Sublime 2]

As its been stated. Winning teams are hated if you are not a fan of the team. I do it all the time. In 2003, I was cheering hard for the Buckeyes against Miami. Why? They were the underdog. Then this year I was cheering hard for Florida against the Buckeyes. Why? They were the underdog. And this is the same Florida team I was cheering hard against back in the 1990s as they drove on to their National Championship. I cheered against the Packers and the Cowboys in the 90s and against the 49ers in the 80s.

I really do think that's what it comes down to. For that reason, I fully understand non-Pats fans cheering against the Pats hard.

As a Pats fan and underdog lover...I completely agree! I know it, and most Pat's fans know it...people root for us to lose. Maybe not because they hate the Pat's, but because they hate the winners. I used to LOVE rooting for the Bills to upset the Cowboy machine, it made the games more fun! I grew up in the Bledsoe era, and New England teams are my life, so seeing the Sox win and the Pats become a "dynasty" has been nothing short of awesome. But...

I think any fan of a team that becomes consistently good turns into 'assholes,' and probably deservedly so. The Yankees are the obvious comparison b/c they have been consistently good over MANY years...though it pains me to say so. So yes, the Pats may be like Yanks now, but in 10 years the Cleveland Browns or the LA Dodgers or the Houston Rockets are going to be the Yankees of their respective sport, and us Pat's fans are going to just be remembering the days of Brady and Bellicheck. The whole while Yankees fans are still going to be arrogant assbags b/c they've won their 29th or 30th World Championship by then, and remain to be the dickhead comparison to upstart dynasties all over.

[ISiddiqui]

Plummer played because Cutler wasnt ready, not because he was the preferred starter.

So... your argument is that Millen was simply holding the seat until Hodson got ready? :D

And playing because the QB of the future isn't ready has no bearing on whether you are the team's perferred QB for most of the year.

[vtbub]

I'm convinced that 90% of the Pats "diehards" couldn't name the QB before Tom Brady (this from living in Boston). The Red Sox are a love affair - the Pats are a passing fashion.


No love for Drew?

Honestly, I think you are right on. The Patriots have replaced the Celtics as the team we all love once the playoffs start.

It's amazing that the Patsies were the bastard step-child of Boston sports as late as week 2 of the 2001 season.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

They became fans because of the superbowl runs. That means they were bandwagon fans. They just didnt jump off when the team started doing poorly.Who says the new Pats fans will?

I guess we have different ideas of what a bandwagon fan is. Someone who jumps on a team when they are winning and then stays with that team through the lean years is not a bandwagon fan to me. That's a true fan.

[SteelerFan448]

My opinion of the Pats. Their fans are offseason Red Sox fans. Their players are arrogant and also we have had to endure years of them whining about being "disrespected" despite the media drooling all over them. Are they good, absolutely, but there is nothing to like about them.

[molson]

My opinion of the Pats. Their fans are offseason Red Sox fans. Their players are arrogant and also we have had to endure years of them whining about being "disrespected" despite the media drooling all over them. Are they good, absolutely, but there is nothing to like about them.

Could you or anyone give an example of the Patriots being "arrogant"? Do you watch Patriots press conferences to see what they say? Where does this come from exactly?

And how about an example of Patriots whining about "disrespected"? (I'm talking about recently, not since they won the 3 super bowls and the "lucky" stuff subsided). And not just from some Google search, where do YOU (or anyone) get this impression - do you subscribe to the Boston Globe and reach such comments or follow the team THAT closely?

My point, again, is that people make shit up to justify their overall hatred and jelousy. For a while it was annoying, but it's gotten so ridiculous that now it's more sad and interesting (in the way people think).

[Desnudo]

Building through the draft and other teams' castoffs, not overpaying players, staying well under the salary cap, and generally hiring likeable players with good character who stay out of trouble. Despite LT's "classy" complaint about the Pats celebrations, how often do you see any of them do a six gun sack dance or gyrating saunter after stopping an opposing player? Almost never.

[Greyroofoo]

I'm surprised on how relatively even this poll is

[TroyF]

I read the first part of this debate and didn't read anything on the second or third page, so forgive me if some of this has been said.

I've went from a Patriots fan to a person who didn't care, to not caring except when they play the Colts and then wanting them to lose more than any team I've ever cheered against.

My reason for hating them is because of how horrific the NE fans are to Manning and how they think it's necessary to shred one of the best QB's in NFL history in order to show how Brady is better than everyone. The fact is when Mannings overall team is less talented than the Pats, it's always been a bit unfair to bash him because he doesn't beat them. If he has Adam V. kicking for him last year, the Colts and Steelers would have played in OT. If he has the defense the Patriots have had, he's played and won multiple Super Bowls by now.

Even the contract is funny. People say the Colts couldn't possibly build a winning team because of that contract and point to how selfish Manning is. Well, what exactly have the Patriots used Brady's money for? To build cap space? Manning's contract didn't hamper the Colts from getting the best clutch kicker in the history of the game, did it?

As for the Yankees/Pats comparisons, I think people are missing the obvious here. Yes, some of it is about how we love to cheer against dynasties. But the other is the "break" factor. Rightly or wrongly, people believe the Yankees dynasty and the Pats both got away with far more than they should have.

Remember Jeffrey Mayer? Or Mark Langston throwing strike three to Tino with the bases loaded that was ruled a ball and turned into a grand slam one pitch later? Or the numerous close calls that went the Yankess way over that stretch of time?

Now, remember the tuck rule play? The mugging of the Colts WR? The clear offensive holding that wasn't called on a Brady TD pass that same game? Troy Brown stripping Marlon McCree when the Chargers had the game?

Before people go off on me. . . the Yankees and Patriots deserved their titles. They did exactly what they had to do to win the game. They made the plays and in some cases earned their breaks. In other cases the breaks were handed to them and they did what they did to close them out. Rivera isn't any less of a pitcher because they Yankees caught a nice run of luck. Brady is a hall of famer even if that TD pass is called back like it should have been. Hell, he may have thrown one a play later, because he's a great player. But it doesn't change the fact the Patriots and Yankees probably had more close calls and freak plays go their way over their title years than any other dynasty I can remember.

I hope the Colts win this week. It won't shut the Pats fans mouths up about how much more he sucks than Brady, but at least it'll get him a long deserved trip to the title game.

[jeff061]

Yep, Pats fans are obnoxious.

[SteelerFan448]

Could you or anyone give an example of the Patriots being "arrogant"? Do you watch Patriots press conferences to see what they say? Where does this come from exactly?

It comes from watching them on the field, their actions and body language, for the past 5 years.

And how about an example of Patriots whining about "disrespected"? (I'm talking about recently, not since they won the 3 super bowls and the "lucky" stuff subsided).

While they were winning the Super Bowl's they were talking about being disrespected.

[WelshWizard]

It comes from watching them on the field, their actions and body language, for the past 5 years.



While they were winning the Super Bowl's they were talking about being disrespected.


That would be different body language from the other 31 teams you see week in week out???

[molson]

That would be different body language from the other 31 teams you see week in week out???

Not to mention the fact that whichever of the four teams wins the Super Bowl, there will be soundbites from the winners about how no one thought they could do it. That's sports cliche 101. The same words out of a Patriot's mouth will be interpreted differently.

Troy's reasons for hating the Patriots (at least against the Colts) are the first ones that make any sense to me in this entire thread. I disagree with some of it, but at least he has a point.

[beargrowlz]

So... your argument is that Millen was simply holding the seat until Hodson got ready?


I remember one game from the era, where Scott Zolak was in his first or second year, and he came off the bench and relieved one of them and led the Patsies for a touchdown or two and did his six shooter finger pointing thing and the announcers said something like "Patriots fans, I think you've found your new starting quarterback."

Those were the days, and back earlier in the pre-Grogan 1970's, when at least half of the football fans in the six states that comprise New England were New York Giants fans.

Probably more so in the pre-Grogan days, as at least during the Chuck Fairbanks era the team had some modicum of success.

I still think that 1976 Patriots team was awesome.

[jeff061]

Zolak's the man. I wish they could clone him and replace the other three jokers on the Pats 5th quarter. Why is Bob Lobel still employed? Why?!??!

[gstelmack]

My reason for hating them is because of how horrific the NE fans are to Manning and how they think it's necessary to shred one of the best QB's in NFL history in order to show how Brady is better than everyone.

:rolleyes:

You do realise that much of those attacks were because so many people were holding Manning up on a pedastal and talking about how Brady was only an average QB despite how much Brady was winning? Manning gets MVPs, Brady gets Super Bowl rings. Manning had a history of playing well in the regular season then fading in the playoffs and playing terribly, yet we kept having him shoved in our faces and being annointed the best QB ever. Heck, even this year Manning has had 2 horrible playoff games, while Brady has had 1 good one and 1 stinker.

Or in other words, it was mostly defensive.

Now I don't think you'll find as much vitriol spilled towards Manning since Brady has started getting respect. What you do find is spillover from Manning being on TV all the freakin' time and getting people sick of his ads. I've come around as I think Manning has matured some and is just playing football. If they beat the Pats this evening, I'll be rooting for them in the Super Bowl even, as I think Dungy also deserves a ring.

BTW, you do realise there is a WOOF draft going on, don't you?

[wade moore]

:rolleyes:

You do realise that much of those attacks were because so many people were holding Manning up on a pedastal and talking about how Brady was only an average QB despite how much Brady was winning? Manning gets MVPs, Brady gets Super Bowl rings. Manning had a history of playing well in the regular season then fading in the playoffs and playing terribly, yet we kept having him shoved in our faces and being annointed the best QB ever. Heck, even this year Manning has had 2 horrible playoff games, while Brady has had 1 good one and 1 stinker.

Or in other words, it was mostly defensive.

Now I don't think you'll find as much vitriol spilled towards Manning since Brady has started getting respect. What you do find is spillover from Manning being on TV all the freakin' time and getting people sick of his ads. I've come around as I think Manning has matured some and is just playing football. If they beat the Pats this evening, I'll be rooting for them in the Super Bowl even, as I think Dungy also deserves a ring.

BTW, you do realise there is a WOOF draft going on, don't you?

This Brady is a victim so we attack Manning mentality is the only thing that has me against Pats fans. I agree with Troy here and you've made the point for me I think. There is venom towards Manning because people say he is a great QB, but they're not saying that about Brady. Huh? It's nto that people are attacking Brady, but the lack of talk towards him makes Pats fans attack Manning. I think you will find FAR more Pats fans that attack Manning than Colts fans that attack Brady.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I'll only weigh in slightly. Sorry, Troy F. I just have to disagree. The Pats' fan chastising of Manning is as what has been said -- backlash for the deification of Manning about 3 seasons ago and the perpetual denigrating of Brady as average/product of the system/dink and dunker. I think the backlash is valid. As for Manning's contract, you're right it allowed the Colts to get Vinatieri but not a very good defense. While Brady's will help the team to compete better. And I just have to disagree that Brady has had the better talented players. This is old re-hashed argument that I won't bother to get into.

Again, it's siimple. The Pats win all the time and they are hated. This is perfectly acceptable.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It comes from watching them on the field, their actions and body language, for the past 5 years.



While they were winning the Super Bowl's they were talking about being disrespected.

They're actions are no different than what you see from the other 31 teams. And it is far less than some. Let's see, do any Patriots have a sack dance? Hmm, no. They celebrate sacks like all teams but there is no classless dance. Let's see, do any Patriots have a TD dance other stupid TD celebration. No, the celebrate like othe teams. Now, they do sometime mock other people's stupid dances - but as I said in another thread that that is fair game. Let's see, do any of the Pats ever get arrested/convicted, or do something stupid outside the game -- very rarely. Anyways, believe what you want.

[beargrowlz]

the perpetual denigrating of Brady as average/product of the system/dink and dunker.



I'm an old man Patsies fan, and I've never given a care as to all this talk about Brady being a system QB.

A ring is a ring is a ring - and he's won three of them for us. When you sufferred through the Pats of the 70's, 80's and 90's and still rooted for them, you can have the greatest QB of all-time on another team for all I care.


I'll take Tom and the rings - be it because of the system or him.

[gstelmack]

I'll give you two specific examples of where I think Manning arrogance has brought this on himself.

One was the post-2003 competition committee order to have the officials crackdown on post-5-yard contact. Instead of saying "we got beat", Manning and the Colts decided that New England had cheated, got their GM (who is head of the competition committee) to get something done, and got the NFL to change its policy towards a rule. No one else has been able to get a crackdown on cut blocks no matter how many people the Denver line (and now the Atlanta line) hurt or tried to hurt (and note that Rodney Harrison is about to miss his 3rd game thanks to a cut block), and it took Roy Williams hurting Terrell Owens before anything was done about the horsecaller tackle. But Manning's receivers get chucked in a playoff game and the competition committee has to act. That's a key reason New England fans were so happy that the Pats smacked the Colts again in 2004 even with the rule change.

Second was the Eli Manning "I'm above the NFL so will twist the draft process to go where I want" fiasco. While not directly involving Peyton, it was another sign of the arrogance the Mannings show towards the NFL.

Others have brought up his on-the-field negativity towards receivers who he thinks cost him picks, so I won't go there.

As I said above, though, I think Peyton has quieted down over the last two seasons and played some football. As a result, I think he's grown up and outgrown some of my complaints about him, so you won't hear nearly as many negative things about him from me now as you would have back then. In fact, I'm publically on record in FOFC as pulling for him to run the table this year and shut up the '72 Dolphins. And while I think you'll find the same percentage of negative fans in New England as you do everywhere else who will give you plenty of ammunition (and would give any fan of any team plenty of ammunition to hate any other team they choose), I think you'll find that the public vitriol of Manning is not as widespread as it once was or you think it still is.

[Ben E Lou]

Depends on who they play. I don't like upstarts, so if the Saints come back, I'd be pro-NE. If the Bears win, I'll be pro-NFC.

[st.cronin]

I'll only weigh in slightly. Sorry, Troy F. I just have to disagree. The Pats' fan chastising of Manning is as what has been said -- backlash for the deification of Manning about 3 seasons ago and the perpetual denigrating of Brady as average/product of the system/dink and dunker. I think the backlash is valid. As for Manning's contract, you're right it allowed the Colts to get Vinatieri but not a very good defense. While Brady's will help the team to compete better. And I just have to disagree that Brady has had the better talented players. This is old re-hashed argument that I won't bother to get into.

Again, it's siimple. The Pats win all the time and they are hated. This is perfectly acceptable.

I STILL hear people say things along the lines of "Bledsoe was a better passer, but Brady was a better fit in the system" which everybody who was watching the Patriots back then knew wasn't true. Brady had a better arm than Bledsoe, threw a more accurate ball, and was infinitely more mobile/athletic. The whole Pats fans putting Brady on a pedestal actually began that year with the fake media controversy of "what happens when Bledsoe is healthy." If speaking the truth (which is that I've never seen any qb who throws a better ball than Brady) makes me obnoxious, then tough tittie.

[Galaril]

I too am asurprised at how evn this pollis I thought that there would be far more peopel who wouldn't weant the ptas to win. I also, notice a bunch of posters who I have never seen on the board before but seem to have come out of the woodwork for this poll.

[jeff061]

Yep, the ignorant, loud and obnoxious tend to skew perceptions.

[beargrowlz]

I also, notice a bunch of posters who I have never seen on the board before but seem to have come out of the woodwork for this poll.

the evil genius BB has an excellent GOTV network. ;)<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[TroyF]

1) Spare me the backlash BS, OK guys? I hate to break it to all the Pats fans, but the first title Brady won, he was a caretaker. He wasn't a great QB that year. He was a very good QB who was majory protected. (witness his 16/27 for 145 in The Super Bowl) The first Patriots win in the playoffs was 24-14 and it showed how different the two teams were. Brady and Manning's overall numbers were nearly identical, but the Colts D didn't lay a hand on Brady while Manning was on his back most of the game.

Even the garbage above is wrong. Manning has had 2 bad playoff games? Well, that's interesting. He went 30-38 against KC in the opening round and when the Colts needed a drive, he moved the team right down the field for the TD. The game against Baltimore wasn't great, but you do realize the defense was Baltimore, right? Again, he did enough to get the job done and the pinpoint pass to Clark with the game on the line was as good of a pressure pass as you will ever see in the league. But he sucks under pressure and can't win the big one, right?

And Manning hasn't been all that poor in the playoffs. Somthing like 61% for over 263 yards a game. His problem and his biggest weakness is that he's never had the D Brady has. Consider the fact that heading into this year, Brady had played 11 playoff games and his opponents had scored over 17 points only 4 times. Meanwhile under Manning's 9 playoff games, the Colts held a team to under 17 one time.

You tell me who has a margain for error? Who gets to play relatively pressure free football most of the game and who has to be damned near perfect for his team to win?

Hell, Manning's last game against the Ravens is damned near what Brady did in four of five of his bigtime clutch wins. Manning got away with a few mistakes, but Brady has over the years as well and anyone who doesn't think so is blind.

But instead of giving Manning credit for "gutting" out a victory and making a clutch pass, he's had two horrible playoff games and the Colts are damned lucky to have won with him, right?

As for it being backlash, again, I call BS. The time for backlash is long past. Most real fans have given Brady the credit he is due. He's a great QB. But when Pats fans continue to slam Manning to try to prove that, my hatred continues to grow. (of the fans, not the team or Brady)

And I hope with every fiber of my being that Manning has a good game and wins today. The sad thing is I'm nervous. The Pats may be beat up in the secondary, but they still have some damned solid players there. And the DLine is still superior to the Colts and could easily make the difference in the game. If the Colts don't pressure Brady and stop the run, they'll have a tough time today. Neither of those things are under Manning's control, as usual.

[jeff061]

It's kind of funny that people like Troy will be happier than the fans will be upset if they lose.

[jeff061]

BTW, I do agree with you about Manning's performance against the Ravens though :).

[st.cronin]

1) Spare me the backlash BS, OK guys? I hate to break it to all the Pats fans, but the first title Brady won, he was a caretaker. He wasn't a great QB that year.

Leaving Manning aside, this is total bullshit. You can throw whatever stats you want up, Brady was a great QB from day 1. It was crystal clear to me, and everybody else I knew who watched him play, that Brady was FAR AND AWAY a better qb than Bledsoe, and easily the best QB the Pats had ever had, after he had maybe 2 or 3 games under his belt.

[beargrowlz]

His problem and his biggest weakness is that he's never had the D Brady has.

(snip)

Who gets to play relatively pressure free football most of the game


I don't think there's any doubt that through this great five year run the Pats have had, they've had a superior defense and an Offensive Line that is impeccable at protecting the Quarterback.

I also don't know why anyone would slag Peyton, he's a great QB.

But like I said, I never much gave a hoot about people slagging Brady. He wins, we win, I'm happy, yay. :)

[beargrowlz]

dola.

Brady was a great QB from day 1. It was crystal clear to me, and everybody else I knew who watched him play, that Brady was FAR AND AWAY a better qb than Bledsoe, and easily the best QB the Pats had ever had, after he had maybe 2 or 3 games under his belt.

Not sure I'd agree with this, if memory serves, his first few games were pretty rocky.

I think, again if memory serves, the reaction from the players was that he was a great leader right from the start, but pretty much just ok his first few games.

I certainly think it was obvious by the point Bledsoe got hurt however, that he was never going to be able to lead the Patriots to the promised land. He'd lost something - not sure what, but he wasn't the same QB that took them to the Super Bowl against Green Bay in what, '96?

Just sayin.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[miami_fan]

If it makes Pats fans feel any better, I did not like them before the Super Bowl run either.:D

[molson]

dola

Not sure I'd agree with this, if memory serves, his first few games were pretty rocky.



He wasn't asked to do much, but he didn't make any mistakes either. (His first start was actually a blowout win against the Colts, I believe with the help of special teams and trick plays).

[jeff061]

If memory serves me right, Brady's first few games were the best games they had played up to that point, even ones they lost they looked good. A lot of New England were on the Brady bandwagon within his first two or three games. However, to be honest, I wasn't fully sold on him until around the time they hit the playoffs.

[gstelmack]

As for it being backlash, again, I call BS. The time for backlash is long past. Most real fans have given Brady the credit he is due. He's a great QB. But when Pats fans continue to slam Manning to try to prove that, my hatred continues to grow. (of the fans, not the team or Brady)

Then pay attention. As I said above, my hatred of Manning has dissipated, and I think that of many other Pats fans has, too. You've got diehards on EVERY team that will do all they can to diss, and find reasons like that to go after EVERY team. If your goal is to hate a team, then be my guest, you'll find plenty of fans that will give you reason to no matter who you go after.

But I'll back all the reasons why I hated him several years ago, and they were legitimate. He was arrogant, his whole family was being arrogant, he was being held on a pedastal despite not winning anything, and blaming his teammates for his failures.

Where I give credit is that he has grown, learned, and is worthy of respect now. But you want to keep judging Pats fines by the blowhards that every team has. Whatever.

Also, Manning's line was 30-38, 268 yards, 1 TD, and 3 INTs against KC. Sure, if you want to ignore the 3 INTs that's a pretty good stat line. I've never heard anyone say a QB who threw 3 picks in a game, especially one QB'ing for a team that never trailed in the game (and thus did not need to take chances), had anything BUT a bad game. And you're the first I've heard make the case that that was a good game for him.

Meanwhile Pats fans are for the most part willing to admit that Brady stunk it up against San Diego and that we were lucky to escape there with a win...

[st.cronin]

dola.



Not sure I'd agree with this, if memory serves, his first few games were pretty rocky.

I think, again if memory serves, the reaction from the players was that he was a great leader right from the start, but pretty much just ok his first few games.

I certainly think it was obvious by the point Bledsoe got hurt however, that he was never going to be able to lead the Patriots to the promised land. He'd lost something - not sure what, but he wasn't the same QB that took them to the Super Bowl against Green Bay in what, '96?

Just sayin.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


I remember thinking very early on, maybe in Brady's first start, that Brady had a better, more accurate arm than Bledsoe ever had. He didn't LOOK like a qb, which I think is where a lot of the stuff that Troy says comes from.

[wade moore]

I'll give you two specific examples of where I think Manning arrogance has brought this on himself.

One was the post-2003 competition committee order to have the officials crackdown on post-5-yard contact. Instead of saying "we got beat", Manning and the Colts decided that New England had cheated, got their GM (who is head of the competition committee) to get something done, and got the NFL to change its policy towards a rule. No one else has been able to get a crackdown on cut blocks no matter how many people the Denver line (and now the Atlanta line) hurt or tried to hurt (and note that Rodney Harrison is about to miss his 3rd game thanks to a cut block), and it took Roy Williams hurting Terrell Owens before anything was done about the horsecaller tackle. But Manning's receivers get chucked in a playoff game and the competition committee has to act. That's a key reason New England fans were so happy that the Pats smacked the Colts again in 2004 even with the rule change.

Second was the Eli Manning "I'm above the NFL so will twist the draft process to go where I want" fiasco. While not directly involving Peyton, it was another sign of the arrogance the Mannings show towards the NFL.

Others have brought up his on-the-field negativity towards receivers who he thinks cost him picks, so I won't go there.

As I said above, though, I think Peyton has quieted down over the last two seasons and played some football. As a result, I think he's grown up and outgrown some of my complaints about him, so you won't hear nearly as many negative things about him from me now as you would have back then. In fact, I'm publically on record in FOFC as pulling for him to run the table this year and shut up the '72 Dolphins. And while I think you'll find the same percentage of negative fans in New England as you do everywhere else who will give you plenty of ammunition (and would give any fan of any team plenty of ammunition to hate any other team they choose), I think you'll find that the public vitriol of Manning is not as widespread as it once was or you think it still is.

So wait.. your two big points are that the Colts aske dthe NFL to start actually enforcing a rule and something his BROTHER did?

Give me a frickin' break, that is so ridiculous and the midset of so many Pats fans is so much clearer to me now.

[beargrowlz]

He wasn't asked to do much, but he didn't make any mistakes either.

(different posters)

A lot of New England was on the Brady bandwagon within his first two or three games.



True enough I suppose. But I think a lot of that was being tired of Drew Bledsoe. If you remember, a lot of folks were on the Michael Bishop bandwagon after one year in NFL Europe too.

[jeff061]

True enough I suppose. But I think a lot of that was being tired of Drew Bledsoe. If you remember, a lot of folks were on the Michael Bishop bandwagon after one year in NFL Europe too.

Yep, I remember all that.

Bringing back memories. I remember thinking Brady was a total meathead after his first press conference. Turns out he was just nervous or uncomfortable, but at the time he came off on the slackjawed side of the spectrum:).

[beargrowlz]

dola.

Off to watch the game. Go Pats!

[molson]

So wait.. your two big points are that the Colts aske dthe NFL to start actually enforcing a rule and something his BROTHER did?

Give me a frickin' break, that is so ridiculous and the midset of so many Pats fans is so much clearer to me now.

It makes as much sense as hating the Patriots because they're "arrogant" based on "gestures made on the field" (Not quoting you, but someone in this thread).

In addition to those points, here's the big one - MANNING IS THE QB OF A RIVAL TEAM. That's it. Boston weren't fans of James Worthy, Magic Johnson, Dan Marino, or Gary Carter in the 1980s. If that makes us assholes, then hell, I guess it's just time to embrace it.

[gstelmack]

The one other point I'll make on this is that I find it interesting that people hate a team because of the fans and not the team. I don't hate the Eagles because of their large contingent of obnoxious fans, I don't hate the Giants because some of their fans threw iceballs, I don't hate Duke baketball because of the Cameron Crazies (I hate Duke basketball because of Coach K's lack of response to the Laettner chest-stomp), I don't hate the Buffalo Sabres because they have some of the most drunken fight-seeking travelling fans in the NHL (the stories I've got from the games here in that series that contrast MARKEDLY from the other series that we played...), etc.

And for the record, 'cause it's not clear, the only team in that list I have any animosity towards whatsoever is Duke. The point is there are plenty of reasons to dislike groups of fans, but I'm not going to let that translate over to my enjoyment or not of me watching that team play. When I dislike a team, it's for how they act or behave on the field of play. And that's a key reason why I find the hatred of the Patriots so intriguing. You've got a team built through the draft and signing castoffs, that plays hard as a team, whose free agent leavings do very little with other teams (Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Deion Branch, David Givens, the long list of O-Linemen over the last few seasons) after having huge impacts for the Patriots, that is well coached ... I mean, isn't this what every NFL team should be like? And yet they are hated?

[dime]

''I think we've been probably disrespected more than any team in the league this year," Brady said yesterday at his weekly news conference. ''I think we've been given up on by a lot of media people, a lot of fans, our own fans, and other people around the league. I think if there's one team that feels like they're disrespected, it's us."



it would be funny if he didn't actually believe what he was saying...

[st.cronin]

You've got a team built through the draft and signing castoffs, that plays hard as a team, whose free agent leavings do very little with other teams (Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Deion Branch, David Givens, the long list of O-Linemen over the last few seasons) after having huge impacts for the Patriots, that is well coached ... I mean, isn't this what every NFL team should be like? And yet they are hated?

Sounds like the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Yankees to me.

[jeff061]

''I think we've been probably disrespected more than any team in the league this year," Brady said yesterday at his weekly news conference. ''I think we've been given up on by a lot of media people, a lot of fans, our own fans, and other people around the league. I think if there's one team that feels like they're disrespected, it's us."



it would be funny if he didn't actually believe what he was saying...



What an asshole.

[dime]

Sounds like the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Yankees to me.

they're not the yankees...the yankees were clearly in their own class and dominated. the comparison is most adept when applied to the two fanbases.

[dime]

Could you or anyone give an example of the Patriots being "arrogant"? Do you watch Patriots press conferences to see what they say? Where does this come from exactly?

And how about an example of Patriots whining about "disrespected"? (I'm talking about recently, not since they won the 3 super bowls and the "lucky" stuff subsided). And not just from some Google search, where do YOU (or anyone) get this impression - do you subscribe to the Boston Globe and reach such comments or follow the team THAT closely?

My point, again, is that people make shit up to justify their overall hatred and jelousy. For a while it was annoying, but it's gotten so ridiculous that now it's more sad and interesting (in the way people think).

I don't know brady personally, but he certainly comes off as an asshole with quotes like the one I provided above. why did I post it? mostly in response to this. I'm trying to help out the incredulous pats fans see what it's like here on earth with the rest of us.

[molson]

I don't know brady personally, but he certainly comes off as an asshole with quotes like the one I provided above. why did I post it? mostly in response to this. I'm trying to help out the incredulous pats fans see what it's like here on earth with the rest of us.

I knew someone would be able to search for a random quote, which is why I included that disclaimer.

I give up, I'm an asshole. Let's try it - if the Colts win today, it will only be because the Pats had a rash of the flu go through the locker room. Manning will still be a underachieving, overexposed loser. The Bears will destroy him and he'll blame his offensive line.

[VPI97]

I knew someone would be able to search for a random quote, which is why I included that disclaimer.

lol...how is that a random quote? It was one of the more highly publicized bits of news before the playoffs last year.

[molson]

lol...how is that a random quote? It was one of the more highly publicized bits of news before the playoffs last year.

If you sought out the quote after I brought it up, that's what I meant by random. If you remembered reading it beforehand, well then, you got me on that point (but I still think others are talking out their asses, and that you could find similar quotes in other teams' press conferences).

[st.cronin]

I think every player in the NFL says stuff like that.

[VPI97]

If you sought out the quote after I brought it up, that's what I meant by random. If you remembered reading it beforehand, well then, you got me on that point (but I still think others are talking out their asses, and that you could find similar quotes in other teams' press conferences).
Everyone remembers that quote. It's the basis for all the 'Pats are always saying they're disrespected' jokes that have been made in the past year.

Heck, I don't think it's bad of him to say that...he's gotta say what he's gotta say to motivate his team, after all. But, I just thought it was funny how you dared someone to come up with it, then dismissed it like it was nothing. It fits with the stereotypical Pats fan.

[molson]

Heck, I don't think it's bad of him to say that...he's gotta say what he's gotta say to motivate his team, after all. But, I just thought it was funny how you dared someone to come up with it, then dismissed it like it was nothing. It fits with the stereotypical Pats fan.

The typical Pats fan concedes the point like I did?

Oh, I forgot I'm an asshole - your team sucks.

[cuervo72]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

Ding.

[cuervo72]

Dola - and that's why SG should be looking at himself here. He's one of the ones to blame. Every article he wrote about the Pats and/or bashing Manning, I grew to dislike the Patriots more.

[TroyF]

Clarify something here. . . I said I wanted the Patriots to lose against the Colts because of the fan base. The rest of the time, I really don't give a damn.

The disrespect factor is beyond idiotic. The way the Pats fans talk about Brady and bash Manning is similar to the Yankees fans talking about one of their players (usually Jeter) and shredding on other teams players because they just don't know how to win. (this was past tense of course, now most Yankee fans are actually a little bearable, getting your ass handed to you repeatedly in the playoffs does that to you)

As if the knowing how to win problem is singularly Manning and Brady's. Brady is "clutch" because when he's led his team on big drives, Adam V. has kicked the ball through the uprights. He's clutch because he's playing under the greatest defensive mind of this generation and knows if he puts up 20 points, it's usually more than enough.

Sad thing is, today's game is about what I expected. I don't think Manning has played badly at all. He should have led Wayne a tad more on the one ball that was knocked down. Harrison dropped a 90+ yard TD pass by not adjusting to the ball (a picture perfect throw), and the Pats made Peyton pay with his one poor pass of the afternoon. But the difference in the game is the Colts D giving up 3rd and long repeatedly because they can't get a hand in Brady's face. (outside of the play at the end of the last Patriots drive)

And the Pats once again get lucky in the fumble game with a 50/50 ball ending up their way for a TD. The Colts need a minor miracle now.

[stevew]

I am so satisfied right now. Good to see that Belichic is still a bitch, giving the colts absolutely no credit.

[beargrowlz]

I think it was Plunkett, then Grogan then Eason, then Eason/Grogan, then Eason/Grogan/Flutie, then Wilson, then Millen/Hodson/Zolak. Then we drafted Drew.

(We drafted Eason before the Dolphins took Marino FWIW).

Anything pre-Plunkett is before my time.

[ISiddiqui]

Dola - and that's why SG should be looking at himself here. He's one of the ones to blame. Every article he wrote about the Pats and/or bashing Manning, I grew to dislike the Patriots more.

Absolutely 100% on the mark! The SG came across as so smug and so bragging that I can't imagine any Pats fans were made from those columns.

[ISiddiqui]

The Colts need a minor miracle now.

:)

I'm hoping we see a lay off of the Manning sucks posts from the NE folks. We'll see.

[Buccaneer]

Somehow, I much prefer Boston (and even NY) fans over Chicago fans.

[molson]

:)

I'm hoping we see a lay off of the Manning sucks posts from the NE folks. We'll see.

There wasn't very many of these before (unless a Brady > Manning post is saying Manning "sucks").

If Pats fans thought Manning truly sucked, they wouldn't dislike him so much. No one hates Aaron Brooks. Believe me, Manning has always been feared in New England.

[Neuqua]

Somehow, I much prefer Boston (and even NY) fans over Chicago fans.

:confused: :confused:

Any reasons in particular?

[Buccaneer]

:confused: :confused:

Any reasons in particular?

Yes but I don't want to offend you. But then again, that's not saying a lot because we out here in the West, esp. fans of California teams, don't view East Coast and Midwest fans very highly. We don't even talk about Southern fans except there's nothing to talk about with baseball.

[molson]

Somehow, I much prefer Boston (and even NY) fans over Chicago fans.

I really wish we could make the categorization of an entire fan base a boxable offense. It's been rampant around here lately and its utterly ridiculous.

[Buccaneer]

I really wish we could make the categorization of an entire fan base a boxable offense. It's been rampant around here lately and its utterly ridiculous.

It's very typically of every single sports-related board and in pre-internet, typical of every single sports discussion on radio, on TV or in print.

[st.cronin]

If Pats fans thought Manning truly sucked, they wouldn't dislike him so much. No one hates Aaron Brooks. Believe me, Manning has always been feared in New England.

He has always terrified me. Remember that first Championship game (I think it was 02)? He threw about 4 interceptions, and STILL the Colts almost won the game. I've always thought he was good.

He's still no Tom Brady, though.

[Masked]

There wasn't very many of these before (unless a Brady > Manning post is saying Manning "sucks").

If Pats fans thought Manning truly sucked, they wouldn't dislike him so much. No one hates Aaron Brooks. Believe me, Manning has always been feared in New England.

You should talk to some Saints fans

[Marathoner]

You should talk to some Saints fans

or some Raider receivers.

[molson]

It's very typically of every single sports-related board and in pre-internet, typical of every single sports discussion on radio, on TV or in print.

I don't hear any negative characterizations of entire groups of people on Sports Center, any newspaper, or the sports radio that I listen too.

It's just retarded though. Someone might know 6 or 7 of 30 million+ Patriots or Yankee fans.

I guess it makes the games more fun. It's just annoying when people actually take that stuff seriously.

[Buccaneer]

I don't hear any negative characterizations of entire groups of people on Sports Center, any newspaper, or the sports radio that I listen too.

It's just retarded though. Someone might know 6 or 7 of 30 million+ Patriots or Yankee fans.

I guess it makes the games more fun. It's just annoying when people actually take that stuff seriously.

It does (makes the games more fun) and it's been around forever. I don't take sports, in any form, seriously and find it humorous (and sad) the level of sports fanaticism there is.

[molson]

It does (makes the games more fun) and it's been around forever. I don't take sports, in any form, seriously and find it humorous (and sad) the level of sports fanaticism there is.

Fair enough, but I think when entire threads are dedicated to the topic, and people use it as the stated reason why they don't like a team, we've reached the level of fanaticism that you (and I) find so sad.

I've lived on both coasts and in between, and everybody's pretty much the same. There's even asshole Boise St. fans.

[cuervo72]

I don't take sports, in any form, seriously

Actually, that would be how I would stereotype West Coast fans. :)

[gstelmack]

I really wish we could make the categorization of an entire fan base a boxable offense. It's been rampant around here lately and its utterly ridiculous.

I kind of agree. One of the reasons I react so strongly in this thread is that when someone says things like Pats fans are arrogant and rude and obnoxious, well, you've just called me arrogant and rude and obnoxious. You're insulting me, so how exactly do you expect me to respond?

Maybe I need to stay out of these threads like I've started avoiding the political threads. Much less stressful to stick around the FOF threads.

[Butter]

I bet you Pats fans have never categorized any other group of fans, either.

It's the price of success, deal with it.

[Buccaneer]

Actually, that would be how I would stereotype West Coast fans. :)

Generally speaking, of course, that's true. I characterized these fans after a big loss: NY - they get greedy; Boston - they get really angry and bitter; Chicago - they whine and cry; Southern - they play the blame game; Western - they shrug and go onto something else. :)

[Kodos]

I think rooting against a team because of their fans is entirely reasonable. After all, if that team loses, it makes the annoying people unhappy. Which is nice. :)

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I think rooting against a team because of their fans is entirely reasonable. After all, if that team loses, it makes the annoying people unhappy. Which is nice. :)

That why I root against the SEC. :)

[WelshWizard]

As if the knowing how to win problem is singularly Manning and Brady's. Brady is "clutch" because when he's led his team on big drives, Adam V. has kicked the ball through the uprights. He's clutch because he's playing under the greatest defensive mind of this generation and knows if he puts up 20 points, it's usually more than enough.

So i guess the fact that they get into Field Goal position to win it has nothing to do with Brady???

And Brady plays on defense also??? Wow this guy is good. We did not have a good defense last year at all, i have to say Brady still managed to get us into the playoffs, so i think he has proved himself wether he has a great defense or not.

[firebirds]

I think this thread is one of the most perfect examples of human nature, in respect to sports opinion, that I have ever seen.

[Buccaneer]

I think this thread is one of the most perfect examples of human nature, in respect to sports opinion, that I have ever seen.

Go check out the Vick thread then. :)