POL: February Console sales numbers

[sabotai]

Yeah how dare they release a system and try to take the smallest hit possible to their bottom line!

While selling as many consoles as possible. Since there have been tons of PS3s readily available in stores since the middle of January, they took too small of a hit and priced themselves out of the market. And each month, it seems like there are more PS3 available, yet fewer are selling. Is that not a valid point to make?

The same people in this thread shit all over Sony's online gameplan and now that they have it up and running - free of charge, there hasn't been one positive thing said about it here despite all of them being proven wrong.
I don't remember ever saying anything about Sony's online system (I don't even play game online with the 360). What were their problems with it and what did Sony do to fix it?

There was pissing and moaning about overheating before launch, and there have been less overheating issues than the 360, yet nobody mentions anything about that.
Bullshit. I remember people talked about the overheating problem with the 360 on this board when the system was released. There were a few times where people said to make sure to buy some 3rd party fan because of 360's heating problems.

People complain about the price, but the 360 cost less than the PS3 to make, so naturally it's going to be cheaper --- it's not as if Sony is getting rich with every console sold. They *try* to give you more for your dollar (obviously with some of their own interest in mind but MS has the same thing in mind with Xbox live), whether you feel that way is subjective but it doesn't make Sony the devil.
The compalints about price are directly tied to the complaints about having to essentially buy a Blu-Ray player, something that I personally have no interest in. If they had just used a regular DVD drive instead of Blu-Ray, they easily could have launched with the same price as the 360. Yeah, they try to give us more for our dollar....but they didn't. I'm not saying Sony is "OMFG GREEDY BASTARDS 600 DOLARS!!", I'm saying I don't want to have to pay for a fucking Blu-Ray player I'll never use. And because they are forcing me to pay for something I don't want which causes them to price their console so high, they are forcing me not to buy their console.

I'm not saying the are the devil, I'm saying they made a mistake, with regards to this "generation war", by including the Blu-Ray player.

The big question though is, what will serve Sony's purposes more, having the PS3 win this console war, or having Blu-Ray win the next-gen format war? Seriously, if Blu-Ray wins, how much money does Sony stand to make off of it?

[dawgfan]

I'm gonna guess what they'll say to this:

"If they didn't include a Blu-Ray Drive with the system, they could make it cheaper. BLAH BLAH BLAH selling proprietary format BLAH BLAH BLAH."
And this is wrong how?

"Obviously we'd rather PAY MS for the rights to play the games we've already purchased than get it for free. Obviously in some way or manner the games are better on XBox Live. BLAH BLAH BLAH Halo is great online BLAH BLAH BLAH."
How many reviews can you find that state that the PS3 online experience is as good as Xbox Live? How many reviews can you find that don't say, essentially, "You get what you pay for with regards to the two competing online services"?

[sabotai]

If I was a mod, I would lock this thread, on the grounds that its boring.

Wouldn't it be beyond hilarious if I just deleted this thread? :D

[ISiddiqui]

It's real simple - if Sony doesn't fuck up, there's nothing to "bash" them for. Plenty of time was spent debating the pros and cons of the 360 launch around the time it happened - if you want to stoke your anti-Microsoft fires, go dig up those threads. But don't be surprised if you find more criticism of the PS3 launch. Then pause to contemplate the very real possibility that this isn't because of any bias, but because there's been more to criticize.

Bingo... and in addition if the execs at Sony don't act like no one has fucked up anything, there'd be little to "bash" them for. I mean it's like during the US-Iraq War II with Baghdad Bob standing there saying things that people KNEW were true. If he doesn't go to the extremes there, no one is really talking about him, are they?

[dawgfan]

Bingo... and in addition if the execs at Sony don't act like no one has fucked up anything, there'd be little to "bash" them for. I mean it's like during the US-Iraq War II with Baghdad Bob standing there saying things that people KNEW were true. If he doesn't go to the extremes there, no one is really talking about him, are they?
Careful - you're liable to get tagged as a 360 fanboy...

[ISiddiqui]

Careful - you're liable to get tagged as a 360 fanboy...

Unfortunately I don't own a PS2, so I'm sure I'm there already ;).

[st.cronin]

Wouldn't it be beyond hilarious if I just deleted this thread? :D

I would rejoice.

[WVUFAN]

And this is wrong how?

Because it's the same thing the nay-sayers said about the DVD Drive on the PS2.

They were wrong, and only time will tell if you are. Sony has said from the very beginning the PS3 is more than a gaming system, the same as they said about the PS2. Y'all are screaming "THE PS3 IS ON IT'S LAST LEGS!!!" when Sony has said time and time again the system is designed for the long haul.

But, you don't pay attention to anything Sony says, right?

[Atocep]

Because it's the same thing the nay-sayers said about the DVD Drive on the PS2.

They were wrong, and only time will tell if you are. Sony has said from the very beginning the PS3 is more than a gaming system, the same as they said about the PS2. Y'all are screaming "THE PS3 IS ON IT'S LAST LEGS!!!" when Sony has said time and time again the system is designed for the long haul.

But, you don't pay attention to anything Sony says, right?


There's no comparison between Sony putting a DVD player in the PS2 and putting a Blu-Ray player in the PS3. DVD was already a viable format and the added cost wasn't even comparable to the added cost of the Blu-Ray player. Sony also wasn't forcing DVD as a format on people because they had a vested interest in it.

Of course they're going to say its more than a gaming system because they're trying to sell Blu-Ray as a format when its in direct competition with HD-DVD.

[sabotai]

Because it's the same thing the nay-sayers said about the DVD Drive on the PS2.

But the DVD Drive in the PS2 didn't cause the system to launch at $600, it didn't cause the system to be priced out of the market. (The PS2 launched at $300, the same price the PS(1) launched at, the same price the XBox launched at, the Wii launched at $250....)

[SackAttack]

Because it's the same thing the nay-sayers said about the DVD Drive on the PS2.

They were wrong, and only time will tell if you are. Sony has said from the very beginning the PS3 is more than a gaming system, the same as they said about the PS2. Y'all are screaming "THE PS3 IS ON IT'S LAST LEGS!!!" when Sony has said time and time again the system is designed for the long haul.

But, you don't pay attention to anything Sony says, right?

Three things here.

1) The DVD player in the PS2 was essentially 'bonus.' The system was always going to read DVD-based games anyway, and so it de-facto had the capability to read movies. Sony didn't put more expensive tech into the system that drove the cost up to around double that of the competition and then say "But it's a good deal, you also get a DVD PLAYER!"

Which is essentially what they're saying here. And it's absolutely true if the purchaser is truly interested in Blu-ray as a format. It is NOT true for the majority of the mass market, and that's where they've shot themselves in the dick here.

2) PSone launched at $299 initially. There was nobody who would have purchased a PlayStation 2 who was going to be scared off by that price tag, no otherwise-early adopters who would have taken pause at the price point and said "Gee, I don't know..."

Sony had proven that they could be successful at that price point, and so for the PS2 demand was the issue more than capability and price point.

3) Design for the long haul is great, and it's fantastic that Sony is taking the long view...but if in so doing you cause a significant hit to your market share, what good have you really done there? Yes, you may ultimately sell just as many units this time around as last once you hit a mass market price point, but you've also given your competition a tremendous foothold against you.

Microsoft has shifted over 10 million units, and it's going to take something incisive, either in the way of a must-have game, or price movement, to jump-start the sales engine to the point of catching up. That also assumes that Microsoft will just stand stilll and let Sony back into things. Microsoft will hit a mass-market price point far sooner than Sony will, and Sony won't have nearly the library of third-party exclusives to hit Microsoft with in this generation that they did last time around.

They've got Final Fantasy and MGS4, and there's even some debate about the former. So what does that mean? It means that without the exclusives hammer hanging over their heads, Microsoft will be able to win converts far more easily once they hit that pricing sweet spot, and they'll have the benefit of having most of the same games that the PS3 does, if not a few of their own (such as Lost Planet and Dead Rising).

I don't think anybody here has been screaming "THE PS3 IS ON ITS LAST LEGS!!!!!"

What we're saying is that Sony have made one misstep after another, and they're making those mistakes in the face of intense competition. 6 1/2 years ago, they came to market with one primary competitor gimped and the other two in the position of coming late to the party. They haven't got that luxury this time, and that just magnifies every mistake they make.

[TroyF]

Yeah how dare they release a system and try to take the smallest hit possible to their bottom line! Those fucking bastards at Sony, what do they think they're running? a business!?!?

The same people in this thread shit all over Sony's online gameplan and now that they have it up and running - free of charge, there hasn't been one positive thing said about it here despite all of them being proven wrong.

There was pissing and moaning about overheating before launch, and there have been less overheating issues than the 360, yet nobody mentions anything about that.

People complain about the price, but the 360 cost less than the PS3 to make, so naturally it's going to be cheaper --- it's not as if Sony is getting rich with every console sold. They *try* to give you more for your dollar (obviously with some of their own interest in mind but MS has the same thing in mind with Xbox live), whether you feel that way is subjective but it doesn't make Sony the devil.

There are dozens of other things that have nothing to do with Sony 'fucking up' yet the same 4 or 5 people harp on it as if they actually know what theyre talking about while screaming they are unbiased cause they own a PS2 or think the Wii is best. Sad, sad people, really.


Who in the hell is saying Sony is the devil? Could you please point them out to me? I've said their launch strategy sucks ass. Tell me how it doesn't?

The only biased people are the ones who refuse to buy anything from the other company. If I hated Sony or thought they sucked, I would not own a PSP (and lets be honest here, the PSP has not did as well ass Sony thought it was going to do, there aren't exactly a ton of supporters of that platform)

You call my "bias" sad, but nobody has said a damned thing to contradict any of my points. OK, Mizzou came up with the Sony/TV article from above. Score one for the Sony fan club.

What other point have I made that has been proven wrong?

Now you are at the point you are just making crap up to try to prove your superiority. I questioned how good Sony's online service would be, but haven't mentioned it in the last four or five months. (long before the system came out) I've been critical of the price point from the time it was announced. I thought Sony was pricing themselves out of the market and that they'd be hurt badly by that decision.

Was I wrong in that assessment, or is there maybe some logic to it now that Sony is sitting in a distant 3rd place?

BTW, there is an article on video game charts that has the PS3 estimated at 600k in Europe. The mod says their numbers are showing about 520k, but that it could be as high as 650k. It doesn't look like 750k is going to be reached and that Sony sold in the area of 55-65% of their systems in Europe at launch.

Lets see if those systems start flying off the shelf next month. Sony still has some huge advantages long term:

1) They are Sony. The PS2 users will want to convert to the PS3 because of how great the PS2 was.
2) MS is dead in Japan and is going to find some tough sledding in Europe with the region code issue once better titles start coming out for the PS3.

But I'm not sure those are enough at this point. The Wii is going to keep flying off the shelves. The 360 has a huge lead and is wiping out Sony exclusives all over the place while at the same time producing a series of exclusive hits of their own. (Gears of War, Crackdown, Forza, etc.)

We'll see how it plays out. I'm just a Sony hater, what the hell do I know?

[dawgfan]

Because it's the same thing the nay-sayers said about the DVD Drive on the PS2.
Not quite the same thing:

- The DVD was clearly the new video media of choice at that time (DIVX was never really a threat), while it's taking the forced marriage of Blu-Ray to the PS3 to make Blu-Ray the leader in hi-def DVD media

- The jump in picture quality from VHS to DVD was much bigger than the jump from DVD to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD

- The relative difference in disk storage from the CD to the DVD, relative to the general amount of RAM in gaming systems at that time (and thus the positive effect on game quality) was much bigger than the difference from DVD to Blu-Ray; i.e., Blu-Ray as a format (despite Sony claims to the contrary) isn't likely to produce a significant impact on game quality

They were wrong, and only time will tell if you are. Sony has said from the very beginning the PS3 is more than a gaming system, the same as they said about the PS2. Y'all are screaming "THE PS3 IS ON IT'S LAST LEGS!!!" when Sony has said time and time again the system is designed for the long haul.
I've never claimed that the PS3 is on its last legs - I figure when we look back on this round of consoles that MS and Sony will have roughly equivalent market shares, and Nintendo will be ahead of both.

As a trojan horse for promoting their Blu-Ray media format, the PS3 will be a huge success, as it will likely be the thing that pushes Blu-Ray clearly past HD-DVD (though whether this will prove to be worth it to Sony's bottom line is up for debate). And over time, as the price drops and the game library improves, more gamers will pick up the PS3. But it's not at all hard to see why the gaming community has had real issues with the decisions Sony has made with regards to the PS3.

But, you don't pay attention to anything Sony says, right?
I'm taking much of what they say with a grain of salt given how much of it has either been clearly false, or gross exaggeration. And yes, you could say the same thing about Microsoft I'm sure, though with regards to this round of consoles I think Microsoft's statements have held up better in general than those from Sony.

[cartman]

I find it oddly humorous that the guy who has stated he would like to stop all immigration is defending the console from a Japanese company versus the one from an American company...

:D

[WVUFAN]

I find it oddly humorous that the guy who has stated he would like to stop all immigration is defending the console from a Japanese company versus the one from an American company...

:D

In this case, I find the Japanese company much more honorable and more worthy of my money generally speaking than a company that essentially forced a monopoly and thumbs its nose at the anti-trust laws in this country.

If Microsoft didn't behave like bastards, I would support them. Hell, I still may -- Mass Effect may push me into buying a 360.

And, for what it's worth, just because I don't want more immigrants in a country already overpopulated doesn't mean I don't enjoy the products they make in their own country.

I do see your point though. :)

[Eaglesfan27]

Mass Effect may push me into buying a 360.




Mass Effect is looking incredible from previews and has become my most anticipated 360 game by a wide margin.

[BrianD]

If I was a mod, I would lock this thread, on the grounds that its boring.

It has certainly become that. Things were more interesting when we were getting some WrongWay/jbmagic style predictions that kept coming up short and the resulting spin/proding that went back and forth.

The recent Wah-fest has drained all the fun.

[wade moore]

FWIW - I am a huge PS2 fan. I haven't bought my next generation console yet because I'm waiting to see how things pan out. At this point, I agree with TroyF, EF27, etc... As much as I REALLY want to want a PS3, there are so many things making me realize that a 360 would be a smarter purchase.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Oh dear. This thread went severely downhill in 12 hours time.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Long article from a independent developer concerning the current platform battle. I'm actually just hoping that it will minimize the personal attacks by giving people something to read and we can get back to discussion......

Mar 27, 2007 : 10 Reasons Why PS3 Will Win This Console Generation


Insomniac Games Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings discusses why the PS3 is the console to beat

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here.

When I started this blog post I was planning to write about Home and Little Big Planet from a developer’s perspective. But as I read some of the media and message board responses to Sony’s GDC presentation, I wanted to address an ongoing industry phenomenon. Specifically, the sheer volume of negative spin toward Sony from both the mainstream press and the internet community. Mere minutes after Sony announced a beautiful, ground breaking, free, community-enhancing online PS3 service, 100 internet posters were trying to argue that this was somehow a bad thing. Whether you love or hate Sony, if you’re trying to spin Home as a bad thing I can only conclude that you’re part of Microsoft’s $3.2 billion viral marketing campaign.

I’ll be the first to say that Sony has had a very rough road from last E3 up through this year’s GDC. Some of their wounds have been self-inflicted, but they’ve also had to face a conspicuously hostile media. Take the New York Times article “How the PS3 will kill your dog, steal your girlfriend, and infect you with Ebola.” And Time magazine’s piece “Global Warming: Is It The PS3?” And more recently, GameSpot’s “Ten Complaints We Thought Up While Everyone Else Was Watching Little Big Planet.”

For the last nine months it has been fashionable to bash the PS3. At first it was controversial, even titillating, to make sensational and dire predictions about the PS3’s future. You could watch it happen again and again – a rumor starts on a message board (“The PS3s all caught on fire at TGS!”, “Blu-Ray won’t have any Porn!”), then it gets picked up by a games industry website, and a few days later USA Today runs the story with the headline “Experts Say PS3 Doom3d!1!!” But the tide has changed so much now that it’s downright controversial to suggest that the PS3 may yet be a success. So, in the spirit of sensationalism and controversy, let me present to you 10 reasons why the PS3 will be the console market leader by 2010:

1. Home & Little Big Planet
One of my jobs at Insomniac is to try to come up with “the next big thing.” This is something everyone at Insomniac does, but as Chief Creative Officer it’s also part of my job description. For the last two years there have been two concepts that I have felt had the strongest potential to be the next big thing. At GDC, Sony came out of the blue and delivered fully-realized versions of both concepts.

The first concept is a realization of the ‘Metaverse’ from Neal Stephenson’s groundbreaking novel Snow Crash. For those who haven’t read it, it’s what inspired Second Life. Over the last couple years, many of us at Insomniac have come up with lots of different ideas on how to make such a system for consoles. So when Home came out, already nearly complete and looking beautiful, it was both amazing and humbling at the same time. In short, Home is exactly what the online console community needs. I’m not saying that because it’s on the PS3. I’m saying that because Home is a fully realized version of something I’ve been trying to figure out how to do for two years.

The other “next big thing” I had been thinking about is how to make a game that is primarily driven by player-generated content. So when Little Big Planet was announced I felt like Orville Wright tinkering on a bicycle-powered balsa wood plane as a learjet suddenly flew overhead. Not only does Little Big Planet have stunningly beautiful graphics, gorgeous animation, brilliant physics and intuitive controls, it’s also a cooperative four player online game! This alone makes it accessible to a much greater audience than player vs player games. And most important of all, it has an absolutely ingenuous system for creating and sharing your own levels. This is HUGE. This is something that’s never been done on consoles and now it’s being introduced not as a half-baked add-on to another game, but as an absolutely brilliant, fully realized, breathtaking experience. You can bet that dozens of developers will create their own Little Big Planet levels as soon as it comes out. Many future game designers will get their start by designing Little Big Planet levels. Gamers who previously had no way to get their foot in the door as a game designer will have developers calling them in the middle of the night if they make a top-rated LBP level. I say again, Little Big Planet is HUGE.

It’s humbling to know that other developers had not only thought of these two concepts, but brought them to fruition in such stunning fashion. Mostly, though, it’s very encouraging to see Sony taking more of a lead in online innovation. While some people were accusing them of merely copying the competition, Sony has been quietly working on two of the most innovative ideas of this generation. “Mii too?” Give me a break.

2. Free Online
Among all the talk about the price of Sony’s console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony’s free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you’ll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free.

I agree, Xbox Live is overall offering a better online service right now. But $270 better? And Sony is steadily narrowing the gap in online features. With improvements to the messaging system and support for background downloading, Sony is rapidly catching up with many of the key advantages that Live has enjoyed. Add to that the fact that Sony is offering virtually lag-free dedicated servers at no cost, while on Xbox Live you are paying for a more laggy peer-to-peer service. Furthermore, one of the biggest advertised features of Xbox Live is matchmaking, yet the implementation of this feature has been inconsistent since it is left up to the developer. The matchmaking service on Resistance: FOM, meanwhile, has been one of its biggest successes, proving that even at this early stage the PS3’s online capabilities are very competitive. And free. As the PS3 community continues to grow with new features and player-generated content from Home and Little Big Planet, Sony’s online service is looking better and better. And, again, they’re not charging you $270 for it.

3. 50 GB games
If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger. And the average disc space of games only gets bigger over a console’s lifespan. As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine’s ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM. It also means that you’re going to chew up more disc space for each level. With streamed textures, streamed geometry and streamed audio, even with compression, you can quickly approach 1 GB of data per level. That inherently limits you to a maximum of about 7 levels, and that’s without multiplayer levels or mpeg cutscenes.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

There’s no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That’s why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.

4. Casino Royale
Casino Royale is the first high definition title to crack the top 10 on Amazon’s DVD charts, rising up to number seven shortly after being released. This is significant because it dispels the myth that high definition discs are merely a niche and will never take off with the mainstream.

A lot of people have been waiting on the fence to see whether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD would emerge as the winner of the format war. Well, at this point the war is as good as over. Blu-Ray has won a TKO. It always had superior technical specs and much wider studio support, but there was the question of whether HD-DVD’s earlier release and initially lower price would capture enough of the market to make it the winner. But Blu-Ray has already surpassed HD-DVD in overall discs sold, and is currently outselling HD-DVD discs at about a 3:1 rate. Many neutral observers in the A/V community have called the war in favor of Blu-Ray. If you want minute-to-minute updates, you can follow what’s left of the format war at various locations on the internet:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/
http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/versus.aspx
These sites mainly compare Amazon sales data, but the Nielsen sales data shows the same thing: Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVD by a steadily increasing margin.

Many of Disney, Fox and Sony’s biggest box office movies will release exclusively on Blu-Ray in the next three months, likely pushing the sales separation between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to a margin where many retailers will begin phasing out HD-DVD. Retailers hate a format war even more than consumers, and I suspect they’ll take the initiative to end it as quickly as possible.

5. HDMI
A lot has been said about Sony’s choice to ship with composite cables. I won’t say I agree with that decision, but I think too little has been said of the fact that even the cheaper PS3 SKU supports HDMI 1.3. The PS3 was the first consumer device to support it, and this is a very important future-proofing step. When you go to buy higher-end TVs, the PS3 will support the highest possible audio and video input the TV and receiver can accept. If and when high-def movies start requiring an Image Constraint Token, the PS3 will still be able play them in high definition.

Right now, HDMI seems primarily to be a selling point to the hardcore audio and videophiles of the world. But HDTVs are getting cheaper and more popular all the time, and consumer sophistication and knowledge of high definition audio and video is growing. In a couple years, HDMI devices will be the standard. Graphics and audio in games will also continue to improve, and more and more consumers will want HDMI in order to get the best results on their home theater setups. As this happens, Microsoft has a difficult choice – do they stick with “last gen” video output, or do they release a premium version of the Xbox 360 that includes HDMI but effectively forces early adopters to re-buy the system to get the best results? Sony ultimately made their console more expensive by including HDMI, but over the next couple years it’s likely to play out as the right choice.

6. Standard HDD
When we were developing for PS2, I was jealous of Xbox’s standard hard drive. There are so many things this allowed you to consider as a developer – virtually unlimited save data, improved load times, custom music, downloadable content and user-created content just to name a few. But since hard drives, no matter what the size, never get cheaper than about $50, Microsoft lost money trying to compete with the PS2’s price. That may be the reason they left it out of the cheaper Xbox 360 SKU, thinking that Sony would again leave out the hard drive on the PS3. Instead, Sony made the hard drive standard for both SKUs. This added to the cost of the PS3, but it also let developers use the HDD in games.

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can’t use it for the games. Or, at least, they can’t use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application’s storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at all.

Another advantage of the PS3 is that it will let you put in any third party hard drive you want. From a developer’s standpoint, this is good news because the market will gradually be able to support larger downloadable games over the course of the PS3’s life. As downloadable content gets larger and more sophisticated, PS3 owners can choose to buy larger hard drives at the best market price. The more this happens, the more developers will be encouraged to create better and better downloadable games.

7. The Wii Fad Will Fade
OK, this one’s going to be controversial, but I have to say it. I like Nintendo a lot. I think Nintendo has innovated far more than any other company in the industry. And I think the Wii is really, really fun. But… let me relate to you a story that may sound familiar:

Your friend Reggie invites you over for a Wii Party. It’s awesome. You and your friends partake in whatever beverages are legally appropriate for your age group. The next day everyone who went to the party rushes out and buys a Wii.

A week later Reggie hosts another Wii Party. This time only half the group comes. It’s still fun, but there isn’t quite as much shoving to get at the Wiimote.

The next week Reggie hosts another Wii Party. You tell him you have bird flu.

Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the Wii does have many characteristics of popular mainstream fads. It’s instantaneously accessible, it’s unlike anything you’ve tried before, and it’s great fun to share with friends. In short, it’s everything Nintendo said it would be and it has captured the world’s imagination. The only downside is that the world is easily distracted. Tickle Me Elmo captured the world’s attention at one point, as did Furbies. They were both instantly accessible, were unlike anything people had seen before, and were fun to share with friends. But a year later, after everyone had seen them and tried them out, their popularity waned.

The Wii is currently riding on a massive wave of mainstream attention and has been purchased by lots of people who don’t normally play games. But how many of those people who are hooked on Wii Sports will also buy Wii Need For Speed? Mainstream fads usually run their course within a year. As the honeymoon period fades, the Wii will be going up against more and more graphically impressive games on the PS3 and Xbox 360. More people will be buying HD televisions and looking for the most immersive and stunning experiences available. For these reasons, I think the Wii will be more successful than the GameCube or N64 but in the long run will still be outsold by the PS3.

8. PS3 Has a Major CPU Advantage
The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge. The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3’s eight parallel CPUs (one primary “PPU” and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3’s CPUs are significantly more powerful. The problem is that it has been challenging thus far to take advantage of the Cell’s parallel architecture.

With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer’s complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won’t work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3’s CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won’t fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360.

9. PS2 still outselling 360
I know, it’s outselling the PS3 by an even larger margin. But the continued strong PS2 sales really are a good thing for Sony. Anyone buying a PS2 at this point is probably not going to buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 in the next year. And when they do choose to buy the current generation of hardware, the PS3 will be in a lot better position. The price will have come down, the game library will be broad, and the top PS3 titles will probably have the edge in both graphics and sound. Just as important, the people buying into the PS2 now will be getting into many of Sony’s exclusive franchises that they will then later want to play on the PS3.

10. Something For Everyone
One of Sony’s biggest advantages is that it has strong franchises in every genre. Whereas Microsoft’s successful titles are mostly M-rated, and Nintendo’s are mostly E-rated, Sony has a big list of hit titles across the spectrum. When a 30-something gamer (like me) goes to buy a game console, it’s a lot easier to justify the purchase when there are games he can play with his kids as well as more mature stuff.

To Microsoft’s credit, they are doing a good job of catching up. The acquisition of Rare and the development of Viva Pinata have helped to broaden their spectrum. But it takes time to build a franchise, and Sony has been building their suite of titles for over a decade. Consider the breadth, success and critical acclaim of some of their exclusive properties: The Getaway, God of War, Gran Turismo, Hot Shots Golf, Jak and Daxter, Killzone, Ratchet & Clank, Shadow of the Colossus, Singstar, Sly Cooper, SOCOM, and Twisted Metal. These are all million-plus sellers worldwide that are either already announced or likely to appear on PS3. Add to this Sony’s new line up of first-party titles, including Heavenly Sword, Lair, Motorstorm, Resistance: Fall of Man, Uncharted and White Knight Story, and they have an even deeper and stronger line-up than what they had on PS2.


A lot of industry watchers and even a handful of publishers have been quick to write Sony off this generation, and I think that’s near-sighted. Sony has made a lot of decisions with the PS3 that may have slowed them down in the short run, but should give them a big advantage in the long run. The high price, hardware complexity, and the uncertainty of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war have contributed to the PS3’s slow start out of the gate. But as the price drops, developers master the hardware, and Blu-Ray becomes the new DVD standard, Sony’s early disadvantages turn to advantages. As downloadable games become more common, the 60 GB hard-drive will be a big advantage to developers and consumers. As games get bigger and more sophisticated, Blu-Ray storage will increasingly become a major advantage. And as more and more of Sony’s exclusive first-party titles get released, the PS3 will begin to outsell the competition on a monthly basis. Those publishers who have shifted resources away from PS3 development will find themselves behind the curve and losing money as the market center gradually shifts toward the PS3 over the next two years.

I’m sure many of you may have comments about my point of view. If you do, please email [email protected] and I’ll do my best to respond. Also, I’ll be visiting the various forums to see what people think, including our own at www.insomniacgames.com (click on the community tab). Hope to see you there.

[wade moore]

Do you have a link to that article? (I want to pass it on to a friend)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Do you have a link to that article? (I want to pass it on to a friend)

It actually was leaked from a forum on Insomniac's website to several websites. Here's the link, though it may be blocked to subscribers only.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/community/blarg_full.php?bid=30

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

As a consumer, I find the reduction of supply to increase demand that is often done by companies selling platforms to be a deplorable way of doing business. As a consumer, I want to get the console as soon as possible.

Geez, who knew someone else would back me up on this point on a day after I posted it. From Bill Harris' blog........

Lastly, in Gamestop's earnings conference call, CEO R. Richard Fontaine floated a tantalizing theory about the Wii:

When asked if the retailer believes if the Wii shortage will be a recurring problem, the executive responded, “I don't think it's going to be an issue...and this just my opinion, but I think [Nintendo] intentionally dried up supply because they made their numbers for the year. The new year starts April 1, and I think we're going to see supply flowing.”

[Coder]

Geez, who knew someone else would back me up on this point on a day after I posted it. From Bill Harris' blog........

That's what I was trying to imply with my post yesterday about Sony's strategy.. while Wii obviously succeded with this, Sony didn't, despite trying to use this very tactic.

Do I condone the strategy? No. I think it's stupid, but long lines and reports about how hard the machines are to get seems to be considered "free PR" by all console-creators, and like I just said..

Sony had this approach as well but it didn't work out very well.

What I've been trying to say all along, and I think we all agree here, the marketing strategy has made Sony look stupid, and this has nothing to do with the quality of their product.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

That's what I was trying to imply with my post yesterday about Sony's strategy.. while Wii obviously succeded with this, Sony didn't, despite trying to use this very tactic.

What I've been trying to say all along, and I think we all agree here, the marketing strategy has made Sony look stupid, and this has nothing to do with the quality of their product.

I actually think that Sony didn't have the supply and wasn't holding back. They air-freighted a large number of systems around launch just to make sure they even had a decent number at launch. That's a much higher cost to do that.

Second statement is pretty accurate. The product isn't the problem in this case, which is even worse. I can't think of a worse scenario than having sales issues of any sort when you actually have a great product.

[dawgfan]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:

[ISiddiqui]

I'm disagreeing about Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD. At this point it is too soon to tell. What will be interesting is when HD DVD players drop in price in the future to, say, $200 while Blu-Ray will be at $600 or $700. I think the lower price will have a big effect on ordinary consumers. Right now deciding between a $500 and a $1000 player is a choice many ordinary consumers are saying 'pass' because both are beyond their price range.

[albionmoonlight]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:

I think that one of the issues in general (not just with this particular review) is that it is hard to find people who care/know enough about console gaming to give valid opinions but who are also disinterested.

The people whose immersion in the industry allows them to provide informed opinions almost certainly have a stake (directly or indirectly) in certain aspects of that industry.

Like me. I don't really care who wins the console wars. But that also means that I have not paid enough attention to know who will win the console wars.

[stevew]

I'm disagreeing about Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD. At this point it is too soon to tell. What will be interesting is when HD DVD players drop in price in the future to, say, $200 while Blu-Ray will be at $600 or $700. I think the lower price will have a big effect on ordinary consumers. Right now deciding between a $500 and a $1000 player is a choice many ordinary consumers are saying 'pass' because both are beyond their price range.

Eh, I think it's over now. I don't think that BD will supplant standard DVD's anytime soon, though. I don't think either is really for "ordinary" consumers just yet. Most people still have a SDTV for now, so even if the HDDVD is 100 bucks, it won't really matter cause they won't be getting any kind of benefit from it.

[wade moore]

I actually think that Sony didn't have the supply and wasn't holding back. They air-freighted a large number of systems around launch just to make sure they even had a decent number at launch. That's a much higher cost to do that.

Second statement is pretty accurate. The product isn't the problem in this case, which is even worse. I can't think of a worse scenario than having sales issues of any sort when you actually have a great product.

It knows no bounds, eh? So Nintendo and M$ are evil and limit supply, while Sony was the do-gooder trying their best but just couldn't meet demand? huh?

[TroyF]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:

I agree with about 3 points of the article:

1) BluRay is going to win and it's going to be by KO. No question it's going to win and I never really thought that was in doubt.

2) I think MS screwed up with the core system. They should have made the HDD mandatory. I think you'll see many game makers act as though everyone has an HDD in the next year or so. I think MS wanted to lower the price point so bad they made a huge mistake in cutting the system.

3) The PS2. I don't care how many times it gets said, if people think I'm trying to hide my bias with it or what. . . the PS2 is Sony's biggest hammer right now. If we pretend this firestorm never existed, polled all PS2 owners and said "would you want the next console Sony makes?" it would be something like 95% in favor. Seriously, how many people here who owned a PS2 were going to hold off on the PS3 2 years ago today? How about 1 year ago today? People want to buy the next version of something they've enjoyed. I'll buy more labs because I love the two I have. I'll buy FOF2040 because I've had so much fun with this series. I'll buy NBA2k8 without a feature list. Movie makers realize this, it's why they pump out sequal after sequal.

I don't agree with a ton of his other points. It's amazing he'd even have the audacity to talk about Sony exclusives when they are losing them by the handfull. Sony's 3 biggest exclusive titles were Guitar Hero, GTA (having it a year before any other platform was HUGE) and FF. Two are already gone and there are some big hints of the third being wiped out.

And his Wii point is idiotic. Look, this isn't some fad where 40 year olds are buying the system and hosting Wii parties every other week. Using his example, "Reggie" is 8 and his friends are going to keep coming over for hours and hours of play. The system has already sold 6 1/4 million units and has shown no signs of slowing down.

If the Wii continued at it's current pace through the end of the year and then STOPPED selling systems altogether, it would be tough for the PS3 to catch it by the end of '08. New flash for you: It isn't going to stop selling. Not now, not next month, not by the end of the year, not by next year. This is like me waiting for the Patriots to fall apart a few years ago. . . moronic.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm disagreeing about Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD. At this point it is too soon to tell. What will be interesting is when HD DVD players drop in price in the future to, say, $200 while Blu-Ray will be at $600 or $700. I think the lower price will have a big effect on ordinary consumers. Right now deciding between a $500 and a $1000 player is a choice many ordinary consumers are saying 'pass' because both are beyond their price range.

That's probably the only point in that article that is a near certainty. HD-DVD is not going to be around much longer. It's all but over at this point.

[stevew]

I want wii Guitar Hero like now already.

[KWhit]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:


Heh. I'm glad you pointed that out.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:

So are you going to discuss his points or dismiss them solely because of the connection? I think there is some validity to some of his points. Note that he admits at the start of his discussion that it may widely be seen as controversial. He's well-aware that most critics will prematurely write off his opinion without actually reading it because of the business relationship.

I'm not surprised you noted that relationship. But I am a bit surprised that you dismissed it rather than actually discuss some of his points. I thought you'd be a bit more open to the discussion.

[dawgfan]

I'm not surprised you noted that relationship. But I am a bit surprised that you dismissed it rather than actually discuss some of his points. I thought you'd be a bit more open to the discussion.
I didn't have time earlier to go in depth regarding his contentions, but I did want to quickly point out that he's hardly as objective as he's trying to present himself in that article. I'll be addressing his points shortly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I didn't have time earlier to go in depth regarding his contentions, but I did want to quickly point out that he's hardly as objective as he's trying to present himself in that article. I'll be addressing his points shortly.

My guess was that most people involved in the discussion would know that relationship, but perhaps I assumed too much. Probably should have been specific.

[WVUFAN]

I didn't have time earlier to go in depth regarding his contentions, but I did want to quickly point out that he's hardly as objective as he's trying to present himself in that article. I'll be addressing his points shortly.

I post some quotes about the usefulness of the Blu-Ray, and you dismiss them out of hand because they're a Sony executive, saying 'post something from a 3rd Party developer. Mizzou does EXACTLY that, and you dismiss it out of hand because it's a Playstation-only developer.

What exactly do you want. Bill Gates talking about how great the Blu-Ray is?

Jeez.

[dawgfan]

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here.
As I mentioned before, Insomniac produces Sony-exclusive content. They may be technically "independent", but they're really not. If they're Sony-exclusive, they're getting money from Sony to be exclusive. It also means that it's in Hastings and Insomniac's best financial interests to see the PS3 do as well as possible. Keep all this in mind when reading his statements.

1. Home & Little Big Planet
Home is an interesting idea that could potentially be very cool, but based off of what was shown at GDC, Sony is a long ways off from realizing that potential. That was the consensus of the contingent at my company that was there, and it seems like that's the general consensus from the gaming press as well. That's not to say that Sony can't and won't improve it, but right now I don't think it's going to be a big selling point.

Little Big Planet on the other hand looks very cool. I give them all the credit in the world for such a cool concept, and for what appears to be very good execution on that concept. Little Big Planet is a definite plus for Sony and their online initiative.

2. Free Online
Among all the talk about the price of Sony’s console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony’s free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you’ll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free.

I agree, Xbox Live is overall offering a better online service right now. But $270 better? And Sony is steadily narrowing the gap in online features. With improvements to the messaging system and support for background downloading, Sony is rapidly catching up with many of the key advantages that Live has enjoyed. Add to that the fact that Sony is offering virtually lag-free dedicated servers at no cost, while on Xbox Live you are paying for a more laggy peer-to-peer service. Furthermore, one of the biggest advertised features of Xbox Live is matchmaking, yet the implementation of this feature has been inconsistent since it is left up to the developer. The matchmaking service on Resistance: FOM, meanwhile, has been one of its biggest successes, proving that even at this early stage the PS3’s online capabilities are very competitive. And free. As the PS3 community continues to grow with new features and player-generated content from Home and Little Big Planet, Sony’s online service is looking better and better. And, again, they’re not charging you $270 for it.
It's cute that he quotes a price of $270 as if that's gospel. From a business perspective, it's hard to imagine that there will continue to be the price disparity between Xbox Live and Sony Online, unless the 360 absolutely kicks the PS3's ass in sales or Sony Online services suck ass - neither of which is likely.

What is likely is that, if Sony Online continues to improve and their experience closes the gap with the (consensus opinion) better service on Xbox Live, Microsoft will feel a lot of pressure to lower their pricing on Live.

What is true right now is that you are getting what you pay for with the 2 online services - a superior experience that costs extra for Xbox Live, or an OK experience that is free with Sony Online.

3. 50 GB games
If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger. And the average disc space of games only gets bigger over a console’s lifespan. As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine’s ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM. It also means that you’re going to chew up more disc space for each level. With streamed textures, streamed geometry and streamed audio, even with compression, you can quickly approach 1 GB of data per level. That inherently limits you to a maximum of about 7 levels, and that’s without multiplayer levels or mpeg cutscenes.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

There’s no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That’s why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.
He's toting the company line here, which is to greatly exaggerate the impact on gaming quality of the storage space on a Blu-Ray disk.

I'll go over this again: the biggest limiting factors on content quality in games is the amount of available RAM and the speed and power of the CPU & GPU. Putting it in simple terms, what you see onscreen at any one time is what can be loaded in to RAM and the speed at which everything runs is governed by processor speed. Yes, you can stream content from the disk or hard drive, but that doesn't change the limits of what you can display at any one moment in the game. Any compression that we might have to do to fit all the art and audio content on the DVD is trumped by the compression that is required to fit our content into RAM. With our PS3 SKU, we could put the biggest, most beautiful textures on the Blu-Ray disk, but it's not going to do us much good because we'll quickly wipe out our texture memory budget in RAM.

Think of it this way - there's a certain amount of polygons, total texture size, lighting effects, joints and other deformers, audio, etc. that can be presented on screen at once. It's up to the developers to decide how best to distribute memory budgets and performance priorities, but there's still an overall limit. There are obviously ways to optimize performance and compress content with minimal effective quality loss, and the skill of your advanced programming team and the capabilities of the game engine mean can vary how much you can squeeze out of the available memory and performance, but get the idea - there are hard limits that have to be worked around. You know how, generally speaking, games with few onscreen characters and closed-in environments (like hallway shooters and most fighting games) look better than big open-world games like GTA? That's because with fewer characters and more limited environments, you can spend more polys on your characters and environments, your textures can look better as your texture budget is being spread across less objects meaning each textured object has a higher relative resolution and you can use more joints and deformers in each of your characters and interactive objects (because there are less of them to be driven).

Where the extra space that Blu-Ray provides gives a developer an advantage is when you have a game that needs to stream a tremendous amount of unique content. If a game uses pre-rendered videos, you can fit way more of that on the disk, though it should be noted that most games these days don't use pre-rendered content - they use in-game content and render everything in real-time in the game engine for cinematic cut-scenes. A more useful scenario where Blu-Ray capacity would make a difference is in games that use a huge amount of unique levels where you don't want to be limited in the textures and polygonal models you can utilize. That said, this impact isn't as big as it might seem at first - many developers do a good job of using sectional building blocks to create environmental content allowing a level designer to re-use and re-arrange a lot of existing content to provide unique-looking environments, with little effective impact on the overall look of the game.

It's also important to note that extra content doesn't come free to a developer - to create that extra, unique content means that many more man hours (i.e. money spent) by artists to create it, designers to place it, programmers to hook it up and testers to make sure it works correctly. You could create a shooter or RPG that has enough unique content to give you 150 hours of gaming, but compared to a game with 50 hours of gameplay, will all that additional unique content translate into enough greater demand to make sales increase enough to cover the cost of creating all that extra content? Not typically...

4. Casino Royale
I think it's very likely Blu-Ray wins hi-def media war. If that's the case though, I'm still not sure how much that helps sell PS3 consoles, unless they continue to lose a lot of money per console by subsidizing the extra cost of the Blu-Ray player. I also wonder if winning this media war will ultimately pay off on the overall Sony bottom line, given the growing trend by consumers to accept and embrace downloadable content. Hard drives continue to drop in price, broadband connections are becoming the standard and there are already services where you can buy or rent hi-def movies and TV shows through an online connection and download them to your computer or 360.

5. HDMI
HDMI will continue to grow in importance as more people upgrade to new HDTV's with HDMI inputs. And yeah, early 360 adopters may feel some burn seeing newer 360 versions come out with upgraded features like HDMI output. There's a valid argument to be made that the 360 should've included HDMI output from the very start, rather than in the upcoming elite system. On the other hand, perhaps Microsoft's tiered strategy was/is the better business decision in terms of reading the market and providing the best options at the time, though the risk of pissing off some early 360 adopters is there.

6. Standard HDD
Valid points - I too was curious as to why Microsoft would risk splitting the install base of the 360 for developers by offering a system with no hard drive. I'll give Microsoft credit for at least making their basic system upgradeable unlike the PS3, but developers still face a tough choice in whether or not to make their game require the buyer to have a hard drive on their 360. That said, I think sales figures will show that the vast majority of 360 owners have a hard drive, and I suspect you'll see most 360 games from here on out designed to use a hard drive, so ultimately I don't think this is going to be a big difference between the two systems. I also like that with the 360, you have the option of swapping out hard drives if you want.

7. The Wii Fad Will Fade
I've wondered the same thing, whether this is really just a fad and if the unique controller/gameplay experience will hold up. However, it's already sold so well and has proven to be so appealing that it has expanded the gaming market that I have a hard time seeing the popularity fade in a significant way. It also fills a somewhat different niche in the gaming market - given the price point and the unique appeal of the system, I think it is far more likely that you'll find people buying a 360 and a Wii or a PS3 and a Wii than you would people buying a 360 and a PS3 - in other words, it's the fun, different, relatively cheap 2nd console that most gamers will buy (or have bought) in addition to their more hardcore gaming console, whether that be a 360 or a PS3.

And with more time to work with the system, I think you're going to find that games for the Wii are going to get better at working out the kinks with the controller scheme and make the experience even more fun and not just an interesting fad.

8. PS3 Has a Major CPU Advantage
I really can't speak to his points here - we just haven't spent much time here yet really digging into the guts of the PS3. I'm sure over the next year I'll start to hear more info from our programmers about the differences between the hardware in each system, though it will of course be filtered by the prism of the particular game engine we're using and how well it is optimized for each platform.

I also wonder, since Insomniac is a Sony-exclusive developer, how he would have first-hand knowledge of the actual pluses and minuses of programming for the 360 and how impartial he'd be in relating what he knew (or was told).

9. PS2 still outselling 360
This is a very good point. Still, unless the PS3 starts gaining ground on the 360, it's going to become ever more likely that you see fewer exclusives on the PS3 and you see Microsoft emboldened to spend the money to get more exclusives, which will certainly have an effect on the late-adopters and what they ultimately decide to buy. Given the 360's head start in production and sales, Microsoft is in a position to always trump price drops by Sony and remain the less-expensive choice between the two. And if the games are essentially the same choices between the two (and most developers are going to program for the 360 and make minimal upgrades to their PS3 SKU's given the differences in hardware and the install base advantage of the 360, so differences are unlikely to be major) and the 360 is less expensive (and more of your buddies have them than PS3's), then the install base advantage of the PS2 fades in importance.

10. Something For Everyone
We'll see - as noted above, there aren't many Sony exclusives anymore, and if Sony loses Square as an exclusive, there goes their biggest remaining advantage in terms of game content. For the most part, the gaming libraries are identical between the two systems.

[dawgfan]

I post some quotes about the usefulness of the Blu-Ray, and you dismiss them out of hand because they're a Sony executive, saying 'post something from a 3rd Party developer. Mizzou does EXACTLY that, and you dismiss it out of hand because it's a Playstation-only developer.

What exactly do you want. Bill Gates talking about how great the Blu-Ray is?

Jeez.
C'mon WVUFAN - I know you're smarter than this. Insomniac is an exclusive developer for Sony platforms. Technically speaking they may not be a part of Sony, but practically speaking they are. Hastings has every incentive in the world to promote Sony's platform and none at all to promote Nintendo or Microsoft. Insomniac isn't a true 3rd party developer - as an exclusive provider for Sony, they are essentially a 1st party developer.

[Big Fo]

haha, so much Xbox 360 v. PS3 arguing when they'll probably both get smoked by Wii.

[TroyF]

haha, so much Xbox 360 v. PS3 arguing when they'll probably both get smoked by Wii.

Haha, that points been made about six times in the thread already.

[Blade6119]

And when you have to buy a new nintendo system in 3 years, and still loving my PS3, we can both have a good ol laugh

[dawgfan]

And when you have to buy a new nintendo system in 3 years, and still loving my PS3, we can both have a good ol laugh
Why would you have to buy a new Nintendo system in 3 years?

[Blade6119]

Becuase technologically it will be outdated by then, where as the 360 and PS3 will not be...why did the wii, ps3, 360 come out? Becuase the previous systems were outdated. Microsoft and Sony built machines that are intended to last 5-6 years...nintendo didnt. Now, not to say they didnt make a better business decision in the short term(they did, no question). But im interested to see how sales hold up over the shelf life of the systems, of which i think nintendo's is much shorter then the other 2 simply due to techology. Thats just my opinion, having played all 3 systems to some extent(i have a ps3, my best friend a 360, and my other a wii).

[dawgfan]

Nintendo will put out another system when it makes sense from a business standpoint. As far as being outdated, in many ways the Wii is already outdated from a horsepower perspective. But here's the thing - Nintendo made a conscious decision to back away from the horsepower race and focus instead on innovative gameplay, and I'd say it's working out extremely well for them so far.

And another thing to consider - let's say Nintendo does put out another console in 3-4 years - more than likely, I'll have spent less to own both than you have spent to own your PS3.

[Atocep]

Its been quoted many times here that PS2 is outselling both the 360 and the PS3. Is that because of its graphical horsepower or superior gaming library along with with cost?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Its been quoted many times here that PS2 is outselling both the 360 and the PS3. Is that because of its graphical horsepower or superior gaming library along with with cost?

It's just a great value right now, whether your a previous owner picking up a new one to replace an old one that wore out or you're looking for a good gaming experience. You can go to places like Gamestop right now and pick up great used games for $10 or less. I still play GTA:San Andreas here and there and Guitar Hero gets regular play as well. I kept my PS2 when I bought my PS3 just to play Guitar Hero I & II.

[Daimyo]

And when you have to buy a new nintendo system in 3 years, and still loving my PS3, we can both have a good ol laugh

$600 for PS3 now or $250 for Wii now and $250 for Wii2 in three years....

Are you sure that's an advantage for Sony?

[Deattribution]

$600 for PS3 now or $250 for Wii now and $250 for Wii2 in three years....

Are you sure that's an advantage for Sony?

In 3 years, the 360 will have an outstanding library and a price range in the 200's, the PS3 should have an equally solid lineup of games and be in the 300-400 dollar range.

Who wants to purchase another console in 3 years (not saying it'll even really come to that) including new acessories, and wait atleast another year for a new system to reach even half it's potential... again.

The Wii is inferior spec wise, but that won't be it's potential down-fall in the long run. It all comes down to games, and there are only so many ways you can swing the controller around before it becomes repetitive. If they continue to think of unique ways, and put them in genuinely deep and interesting games, they will be just fine.

[Eaglesfan27]

Insomniac Games? You mean the company that makes Playstation-exclusive content? Yeah, they're unbiased...:rolleyes:

Just catching up on the board today, but that was my first thought as well upon reading that post..

[BrianD]

Slight threadjack, but why is everyone claiming the next gen DVD format war for Blu-Ray? I haven't been paying much attention lately, but when the formats came out I thought HD DVD would be the winner.

[Eaglesfan27]

Slight threadjack, but why is everyone claiming the next gen DVD format war for Blu-Ray? I haven't been paying much attention lately, but when the formats came out I thought HD DVD would be the winner.


Because Blu-Ray sales are significantly higher than HD-DVD sales right now. Interestingly, I was reading an article the other day and Microsoft is starting to talk again about the possibility of adding a Blu-Ray Peripheral to the 360 for those who want it, if Blu-Ray wins the war.


Edit: I'm talking about Blu-Ray players are higher than HD-DVD players, but that data includes the PS3 sales. Otherwise, I don't know of any conclusive data that would indicate the war is over, and it seems to premature to call it over.

[BrianD]

Because Blu-Ray sales are significantly higher than HD-DVD sales right now. Interestingly, I was reading an article the other day and Microsoft is starting to talk again about the possibility of adding a Blu-Ray Peripheral to the 360 for those who want it, if Blu-Ray wins the war.


Edit: I'm talking about Blu-Ray players are higher than HD-DVD players, but that data includes the PS3 sales. Otherwise, I don't know of any conclusive data that would indicate the war is over, and it seems to premature to call it over.

Any word on movie sales? That should tell us if people are using PS3s as movie players. I personally don't have any feel how this battle is going as I only know one person who is even interested in an HD format, and he is very anti-Sony so not a good source.

[Eaglesfan27]

Any word on movie sales? That should tell us if people are using PS3s as movie players. I personally don't have any feel how this battle is going as I only know one person who is even interested in an HD format, and he is very anti-Sony so not a good source.


Sales of movies are very close to 50-50 (that is over their entire lifetime by the way.) Blu-Ray has just in the past month or so passed HD-DVD in sales of movies for the first time. That is part of why I think it is too early to call this race, much less say it is over. You can google Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD and find a lot of different sites that offer more specifics on sales. It does show that Blu Ray Movie sales have been rapidly accelerating in the last few months.

[SackAttack]

Nintendo will put out another system when it makes sense from a business standpoint. As far as being outdated, in many ways the Wii is already outdated from a horsepower perspective. But here's the thing - Nintendo made a conscious decision to back away from the horsepower race and focus instead on innovative gameplay, and I'd say it's working out extremely well for them so far.

And really, that's not so different from their modus operandi for the last 20 years.

You have to remember, NES was not top-of-the-line for what was available in 1984. It was the best mixture of technology and value. SNES, same thing. It had better games than Genesis, but that was more contractual than hardware-related.

N64 was maybe the only time Nintendo have ever gone in for the 'latest and greatest,' and even that's sort of mixed because they chose the cheaper cartridge format over CD-based. Note: the discs are cheaper to press, but a system with fewer moving parts is easier and cheaper to manufacture, and that's what I'm referring to here.

In this case, the business strategy with Wii plays directly into the hands of their entire business model: they don't HAVE to get on the technology bandwagon in three years, or five years, because the market they're aiming to does not predominantly consist of graphics whores. They're going for families, lapsed gamers, non-traditional gamers, and vintage enthusiasts.

Who among them needs the horsepower of a 360 or a PS3 to really enjoy what they're doing?

Basically, they've had this business strategy all along, and the Wii just hits the sweet spot between their current target demographic and the "mature technology" platform they've always espoused.

Wii, I don't think, will be seriously concerned with Xbox 360 or PS3 as competitors, because the people who buy a Wii will not necessarily eschew the other two. Some Wii owners will own the other systems, and some will be content with Wii. No cannibalism forcing people to choose between Wii and one of the other two. Now, a choice between 360+Wii or PS3? Sure, but that's not the Wii on its own forcing that decision. That really comes down to the choice between 360 or PS3, with the Wii an incidental player in the game.

[sterlingice]

Wii, I don't think, will be seriously concerned with Xbox 360 or PS3 as competitors, because the people who buy a Wii will not necessarily eschew the other two. Some Wii owners will own the other systems, and some will be content with Wii. No cannibalism forcing people to choose between Wii and one of the other two. Now, a choice between 360+Wii or PS3? Sure, but that's not the Wii on its own forcing that decision. That really comes down to the choice between 360 or PS3, with the Wii an incidental player in the game.

Not to entirely believe everything Reggie says but that's what they've been really pushing the last couple of years- this whole "blue ocean" marketing idea as well as the cheap price making them the second console as a way to win.

First, the goal is not to scrap after the same 20% of people who have been buying games for years (it's been pretty much steady for 20 years now, percentage-wise). You make a major gain, going from 20% to 40% of the market and you're only talking about going from 4% to 6% overall adoption rate with a huge push. But if you can target other groups who wouldn't typically play like people who have fallen out of the demograpic ("I'm too old to play but I like those old virtual console games"), people who aren't the traditional audience ("I wouldn't play a normal video game but this is something different"), video games are getting too expensive ("except the $200 one") etc- you're suddenly going after the other 80% where you are virtually unopposed by your competitors.

Secondly, if you're everyone's second console because you're cheap enough that people don't bat an eye at paying, you've sold more than either of the other systems.

SI

[sterlingice]

BTW, Wow, this thread got ugly quick...

And I'll say this for Sack. He's NEVER told me how to review a game, what I could/couldn't say in a blog post, steered me to Sony, MS or any other system. He reviews games for all systems and the grading scale is not favored toward one system over another. Implyng that he's a biased fanboy who wants Sony to fail is moronic. The more popular video gaming is, the more systems in peoples hands, the more games they buy. . . the more people will be looking at his site. It's in his best interests for EVERY system to be a success.

I, on the other hand, would like to point out that I'm the Gamenikki Nintendo fanboy and quite unabashed in those views. Tho, I lack a Wii due to the fact that I've never seen one in stores and still need to lay off dropping $300 at the moment...

SI

[TroyF]

BTW, Wow, this thread got ugly quick...



I, on the other hand, would like to point out that I'm the Gamenikki Nintendo fanboy and quite unabashed in those views. Tho, I lack a Wii due to the fact that I've never seen one in stores and still need to lay off dropping $300 at the moment...

SI

Never said we didn't have preferences on systems, just defending the attack on Sack as being an MS fanboy and hating on PS stuff. The accusation is asinine.

[KWhit]

Not to entirely believe everything Reggie says but that's what they've been really pushing the last couple of years- this whole "blue ocean" marketing idea as well as the cheap price making them the second console as a way to win.

First, the goal is not to scrap after the same 20% of people who have been buying games for years (it's been pretty much steady for 20 years now, percentage-wise). You make a major gain, going from 20% to 40% of the market and you're only talking about going from 4% to 6% overall adoption rate with a huge push. But if you can target other groups who wouldn't typically play like people who have fallen out of the demograpic ("I'm too old to play but I like those old virtual console games"), people who aren't the traditional audience ("I wouldn't play a normal video game but this is something different"), video games are getting too expensive ("except the $200 one") etc- you're suddenly going after the other 80% where you are virtually unopposed by your competitors.

Secondly, if you're everyone's second console because you're cheap enough that people don't bat an eye at paying, you've sold more than either of the other systems.

SI


That is a great point. After my last console purchase disappointed me, I told myself there was no way I'd ever get another one. And I still feel that way about the 360 and PS3. I am out of the market.

Except.... The wii is tempting me. I may never buy one, but IF I get a console, it will be the wii. If the wii didn't exist, I would definitely not buy a console this go round.

The wii is expanding the console market.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Slight threadjack, but why is everyone claiming the next gen DVD format war for Blu-Ray? I haven't been paying much attention lately, but when the formats came out I thought HD DVD would be the winner.

Here's a recent article about the situation. Basically, Blu-ray has sold the same number of movies as HD-DVD despite the head start of a few months for HD-DVD and is now steadily increasing that gap.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03082007/entertainment/blu_ray_ascending_entertainment_lou_lumenick.htm?page=1

[albionmoonlight]

So will we soon have another 7 page thread entitled "March Console Sale Numbers?"

[Travis]

So if the PS3 helps Blu Ray defeat HD-DVD, do the views of those lambasting how Sony has handled this launch change at all?

Seems like the main points against the PS3 so far are the price, the fact that they trojan'd in the blu ray player and used it as a main selling feature (somewhat directly tied to point one), and of course the crappy PR from the Sony Execs.

Now, the last point of course can't be challenged, though I think the free TV's were a nice touch, especially because they weren't advertised and were much more a reward than a lure, but on the first two points, does the eventual (if it pans out that way) domination of Blu Ray offset the other negatives for Sony?

Sure, they'll have ticked off a certain population of gamers/buyers because of the price, but I'd imagine that as Blu Ray players drop in price, so will the PS3, also compounded by wanting to become more competitive in relation to the 360. But they obviously had two goals with this system, and they appear to be on their way on one front, it remains to be seen as to how they'll then try to recover on the other, but to remove personal opinion (re: I don't want a blu ray player, I want a video game system!), does this affect views on how they've done things?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So will we soon have another 7 page thread entitled "March Console Sale Numbers?"

Not for another 15 days or so. :)

[dawgfan]

Sure, they'll have ticked off a certain population of gamers/buyers because of the price, but I'd imagine that as Blu Ray players drop in price, so will the PS3, also compounded by wanting to become more competitive in relation to the 360. But they obviously had two goals with this system, and they appear to be on their way on one front, it remains to be seen as to how they'll then try to recover on the other, but to remove personal opinion (re: I don't want a blu ray player, I want a video game system!), does this affect views on how they've done things?
I really have no clue what the financial ramifications are of winning the hi-def DVD format war. As I've pointed out before, it may well be that Blu-Ray becoming the de facto hi-def standard media will offset whatever loss in video game market share Sony endures.

However, I also wonder whether the hi-def DVD format war is fading in importance with the rise of broadband acceptance, the inexpensiveness of hard drives and the availability of downloadable hi-def movie and TV show content.

[SackAttack]

It's cute that he quotes a price of $270 as if that's gospel.

It's even cuter that it's wrong.

That $70 he says is required to sign up for a year? It's, uh, not.

Microsoft puts the headset in the bundle for core users who want to talk to people, but if you've played on Live for any length of time, you know you get two groups of people - the 'I just wanna play, leave me alone' guys and the 'chatterchatter' guys.

You don't need to pay $70 for that first year unless you don't have the headset and you WANT the headset...and the only way that happens is if you bought a core, which overwhelmingly, people don't do.

That, at best, is innocuous "oops, I didn't know I could just by a 12+1 subscription card" and at worst, is deliberate misinformation. Even if the $20 doesn't matter to his overall point, it's still shading the facts to get people to lean more in his direction.

On the other side of the coin, that and the 'wii fad will fade' points are the only ones with which I strongly disagree.

The '50 GB games' bit, jury's still out as far as I'm concerned. It'll matter eventually, but I'm not convinced that it will be a decisive factor in this generation. If Sony isn't the market leader, there's less incentive for companies to develop for the PS3 and then port to other systems, which is where it would have the biggest impact.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

However, I also wonder whether the hi-def DVD format war is fading in importance with the rise of broadband acceptance, the inexpensiveness of hard drives and the availability of downloadable hi-def movie and TV show content.

I really don't completely buy in to the whole 'electronic distribution' thing will phase out hard media. The vast majority of users even now and for quite a while in the future will want some sort of hard media version of the software. Even in the case of movies and software that you download, there are going to be people that use disks to burn hard copies to transfer to other computers/consoles. That media is likely to be Blu-ray in the near future, so there's still going to be a big profit available for Sony no matter what the need for their disc. I could see a fully electronic situation at some point as you describe, but it's still quite a way into the future. Definitely long past the life of the Blu-ray/HD-DVD formats. It's just too cheap to store things on disc media at this point.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It's even cuter that it's wrong.

That $70 he says is required to sign up for a year? It's, uh, not.

Microsoft puts the headset in the bundle for core users who want to talk to people, but if you've played on Live for any length of time, you know you get two groups of people - the 'I just wanna play, leave me alone' guys and the 'chatterchatter' guys.

You don't need to pay $70 for that first year unless you don't have the headset and you WANT the headset...and the only way that happens is if you bought a core, which overwhelmingly, people don't do.

That, at best, is innocuous "oops, I didn't know I could just by a 12+1 subscription card" and at worst, is deliberate misinformation. Even if the $20 doesn't matter to his overall point, it's still shading the facts to get people to lean more in his direction.

I agree that you can debate the math and that the disparity isn't as great as he implies, but you can't debate that any amount is greater than the $0 that Sony is charging.

[SackAttack]

I agree that you can debate the math and that the disparity isn't as great as he implies, but you can't debate that any amount is greater than the $0 that Sony is charging.

You're absolutely right.

You also get what you pay for. If Sony can parlay Home into something equivalent to Xbox Live's polish and still charge nothing for it, I will be the first to congratulate them.

But at this moment, their online play is free, but the service as a whole is nowhere near the coherency and cohesiveness of Xbox Live.

[Atocep]

So if the PS3 helps Blu Ray defeat HD-DVD, do the views of those lambasting how Sony has handled this launch change at all?

Seems like the main points against the PS3 so far are the price, the fact that they trojan'd in the blu ray player and used it as a main selling feature (somewhat directly tied to point one), and of course the crappy PR from the Sony Execs.


I don't own any of the 'next gen' consoles, but with a 5 year old in the house now I definitely fall into the 'strongly considering a Wii group'. I did, however, own pretty much every console before this Next Gen War started (I even owned a Sega CD :eek:).

My interest is really just in the market itself and its my personal opinion that even if Blu-Ray wins out in the HD-DVD war they have still done more damage to their brand than good.

Microsoft has done an outstanding job of getting their console into consumer's hands when Sony was (and still is) the undisputed king of video game consoles. Sony has really opened the door for Microsoft to excede expectations for the 360, which Sony won't really begin to feel until the next generation of consoles are released (even if that is 4-5 years down the road).

Sony doesn't have to deal with the amount of bias Microsoft has against their brand in Europe, but forcing people into something they don't necessarily want in the name of the dollar is exactly why Microsoft struggles to sell anything in Europe. Sony is walking a dangerous line with the way they've handled packaging the PS3 and the PR disasters that have come from execs at Sony.

[BrianD]

Do you really think Sony will have done that much damage to their brand? Sony has tried to push other formats that haven't gone over well like the minidisk and their proprietary flash cards with no lasting damage.

Even if Sony does lose the console war for this generation (which is a total unknown at this point), they will still be fine for the next round. This isn't the kind of thing that will give them a Microsoft-style black eye.

[dawgfan]

I really don't completely buy in to the whole 'electronic distribution' thing will phase out hard media. The vast majority of users even now and for quite a while in the future will want some sort of hard media version of the software. Even in the case of movies and software that you download, there are going to be people that use disks to burn hard copies to transfer to other computers/consoles. That media is likely to be Blu-ray in the near future, so there's still going to be a big profit available for Sony no matter what the need for their disc. I could see a fully electronic situation at some point as you describe, but it's still quite a way into the future. Definitely long past the life of the Blu-ray/HD-DVD formats. It's just too cheap to store things on disc media at this point.
Yeah, I don't see hard media going away anytime soon, if ever. I'm just saying that I think downloaded content will cut into sales of hard media, and the big question is "How much?"

[dawgfan]

The '50 GB games' bit, jury's still out as far as I'm concerned. It'll matter eventually, but I'm not convinced that it will be a decisive factor in this generation. If Sony isn't the market leader, there's less incentive for companies to develop for the PS3 and then port to other systems, which is where it would have the biggest impact.
It will have an impact on PC games much sooner than they will console games, because with PC's you can upgrade your RAM, graphics gard and CPU.

Large format game media (likely Blu-Ray) will be a much bigger factor on the next go-round for the console cycle because the hardware specs will be much higher. Blu-Ray will be great for games, it's just that the PS3 isn't powerful enough to really exploit all that extra disk space.

[Ryan S]

Sony doesn't have to deal with the amount of bias Microsoft has against their brand in Europe,

I don't think that there is any bias against Microsoft in Europe. The EU government seems to like to take Microsoft to court a lot, but for regular consumers Microsoft is just as popular/unpopular as it is in the USA.

[Atocep]

Do you really think Sony will have done that much damage to their brand? Sony has tried to push other formats that haven't gone over well like the minidisk and their proprietary flash cards with no lasting damage.

Even if Sony does lose the console war for this generation (which is a total unknown at this point), they will still be fine for the next round. This isn't the kind of thing that will give them a Microsoft-style black eye.

I'm in no way spelling out doom for Sony, but there's a big difference between the publicity in failing with flash cards and a video game system bombing. Especially when we all we heard up until its release was how incredible it was going to be and how it would be much more than just a video game console.

If for some reason the PS3 becomes a complete disaster it certainly doesn't mean they're done in the console market, but it puts Microsoft right where they want to be.

[Travis]

Difference is, the PS2 is still outselling the PS3 and the 360. If the plan was to get Blu Ray to the top, whether you agree with the strategy or not, it appears to be working. Then it's a question of recovery as to how well the PS3 does on it's own as a video game platform, where the biggest strike so far is the departure of exclusive titles. If they drop the price and retain the few titles left that will attract buyers, then it could still turn out well for them.

As much as they may be ticking off some with the way the PS3 has gone thus far, so long as they continue to put out quality titles for the PS2, they're retaining a large base of potential customers and continuing to turn a very decent profit (I assume) off a still viable system to offset losses on the PS3.

Again, just a theory, but a lot of topics of debate on here about the PS3 aside from the mental capacity of their handling of the launch seemed to center around the blu ray inclusion. How they move forward from here will shed more light on it, but food for thought anyway.

[st.cronin]

This has got to be the longest fofc thread of all time that has essentially stayed "on topic."

[BrianD]

I'm in no way spelling out doom for Sony, but there's a big difference between the publicity in failing with flash cards and a video game system bombing. Especially when we all we heard up until its release was how incredible it was going to be and how it would be much more than just a video game console.

If for some reason the PS3 becomes a complete disaster it certainly doesn't mean they're done in the console market, but it puts Microsoft right where they want to be.

Sony will be right about the PS3 being incredible and it being more than just a video game console. The question is whether people will want it at its price.

Failure would certainly give a great boost to Microsoft, but Sony will be back in the game when the PS4 takes on the Xbox 720.

[dawgfan]

Difference is, the PS2 is still outselling the PS3 and the 360. If the plan was to get Blu Ray to the top, whether you agree with the strategy or not, it appears to be working. Then it's a question of recovery as to how well the PS3 does on it's own as a video game platform, where the biggest strike so far is the departure of exclusive titles. If they drop the price and retain the few titles left that will attract buyers, then it could still turn out well for them.

As much as they may be ticking off some with the way the PS3 has gone thus far, so long as they continue to put out quality titles for the PS2, they're retaining a large base of potential customers and continuing to turn a very decent profit (I assume) off a still viable system to offset losses on the PS3.

Again, just a theory, but a lot of topics of debate on here about the PS3 aside from the mental capacity of their handling of the launch seemed to center around the blu ray inclusion. How they move forward from here will shed more light on it, but food for thought anyway.
The PS2 sales phenomenon is fascinating enough to warrant its own thread - I'm not sure there's been anything like it in terms of a past generation console kicking all but one of the next generation consoles asses in sales this far into the next-gen launch period.

The thing though is that PS2 loyalty may not mean a whole lot - many of the people buying PS2's now are ones whose prime buying issue is cost, and they are finding the best bang for their buck with the PS2 and its library. That doesn't mean that the PS3 will be the best bang for the buck at the end of this current console cycle - in fact, many signs would suggest that it isn't, though that will partly depend on how much of a draw having a Blu-Ray player becomes.

The 360 will always be cheaper than the PS3, and the Wii will always be cheaper than the 360. It's highly unlikely that Sony will ever lower the price of the PS3 to a point that Microsoft isn't willing to beat. They already have a $200 head start on price differential. And with fewer games becoming Sony exclusives, there's less incentive this time around to stay with Sony as a platform for bargain buyers.

All this said, I agree with others in thinking that the PS3 isn't going to cost Sony a place at the video game table - they may concede the market leader position, and they may even come in 3rd this time around, but I don't think they'll get buried, and they should be still be in a position to make a big jump ahead again with the PS4.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

My interest is really just in the market itself and its my personal opinion that even if Blu-Ray wins out in the HD-DVD war they have still done more damage to their brand than good.

More damage than a console that still even now regularly has a 'ring of death' rendering the console useless?

Listen, I'm not going to make Sony out to be the saints of the console world, but they delivered a console that has proven very reliable and I'm not sure how their attempt to corner the HD disc format market is somehow a black eye to them. Microsoft is trying to do the exact same thing. You may argue that Sony 'forced' it on consumers by including it as standard in their console. I would argue that you don't have to buy it. Eventually the price will come down and you can buy a great HD player/console combo.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The 360 will always be cheaper than the PS3, and the Wii will always be cheaper than the 360. It's highly unlikely that Sony will ever lower the price of the PS3 to a point that Microsoft isn't willing to beat. They already have a $200 head start on price differential. And with fewer games becoming Sony exclusives, there's less incentive this time around to stay with Sony as a platform for bargain buyers.

It's $200 cheaper because you're not getting the same value in the 360. You can argue that you don't want a HD movie player. That's fine. Sony is offering a different product for those that want a very affordable alternative rather than spending more money. 360 owners have the same option with the add-on player. The only problem now appears that they may end up with a format that becomes quickly obsolete and you may end up with a $200 paperweight and have to buy a separate Blu-ray player to get your HD movie viewing.

[dawgfan]

Listen, I'm not going to make Sony out to be the saints of the console world, but they delivered a console that has proven very reliable and I'm not sure how their attempt to corner the HD disc format market is somehow a black eye to them. Microsoft is trying to do the exact same thing.
Microsoft has backed the HD-DVD format, but not anywhere near to the extent that Sony is backing Blu-Ray. They don't have the same vested interest in that outcome that Sony does, and they also have the Xbox Live marketplace for buying and renting downloadable HD content, so they've hedged their bets.

You may argue that Sony 'forced' it on consumers by including it as standard in their console. I would argue that you don't have to buy it. Eventually the price will come down and you can buy a great HD player/console combo.
Here's the big thing though - there are a ton of people that love the PS2 gaming platform and were greatly anticipating the next generation of PS hardware. Many of these gamers don't give a rip about next-gen DVD formats, so yes - they are forced to swallow the extra cost associated with including a Blu-Ray player in the machine if they are determined to have the next-generation Playstation gaming experience.

But you are right, they do have a choice, they don't have to buy a PS3 - they can buy a 360 instead (and pick up a Wii as well with the money they save).

[BrianD]

It's $200 cheaper because you're not getting the same value in the 360. You can argue that you don't want a HD movie player. That's fine. Sony is offering a different product for those that want a very affordable alternative rather than spending more money. 360 owners have the same option with the add-on player. The only problem now appears that they may end up with a format that becomes quickly obsolete and you may end up with a $200 paperweight and have to buy a separate Blu-ray player to get your HD movie viewing.

I think this completely misrepresents Sony's marketing plan. They aren't offering a different product for those that want an affordable alternative. They are bundling their new DVD format in hopes that people who are getting a player that they didn't necessarily want will start buying movies since they have the player anyway.

I'm not a fan of this kind of bundling, but I recognize that it isn't uncommon. There may be some people that actually do want a game machine and a new HD DVD player, but I don't believe that is what Sony is aiming for.

[dawgfan]

It's $200 cheaper because you're not getting the same value in the 360. You can argue that you don't want a HD movie player. That's fine. Sony is offering a different product for those that want a very affordable alternative rather than spending more money. 360 owners have the same option with the add-on player. The only problem now appears that they may end up with a format that becomes quickly obsolete and you may end up with a $200 paperweight and have to buy a separate Blu-ray player to get your HD movie viewing.
But that's the beauty of the MS approach here - buy the components you want rather than having them forced on you. There's no reason for a consumer to buy an HD-DVD player add-on for their 360 unless they really prefer that format - it's a choice left up to the consumer.

Nobody is saying that Sony is ripping people off with their pricing - what we're saying is that we object to being forced to pay for technology that isn't critical to the gaming experience, especially when that technology adds ~$200 to the price.

Look, if you're a consumer and you really buy into Blu-Ray as a movie format and you're a gamer, the PS3 is a fantastic choice. But if you don't really care about the hi-def DVD format war and are mainly just looking for a new next-gen gaming console, then you can save yourself a lot of money going with a 360 or Wii. If you get a 360 and then decide later that you want to upgrade to a hi-def DVD format, you'll have the option of adding a hi-def DVD player to your 360 (and that choice may well become Blu-Ray down the road if that format becomes the clear leader).

[BrianD]

Look, if you're a consumer and you really buy into Blu-Ray as a movie format and you're a gamer, the PS3 is a fantastic choice. But if you don't really care about the hi-def DVD format war and are mainly just looking for a new next-gen gaming console, then you can save yourself a lot of money going with a 360 or Wii. If you get a 360 and then decide later that you want to upgrade to a hi-def DVD format, you'll have the option of adding a hi-def DVD player to your 360 (and that choice may well become Blu-Ray down the road if that format becomes the clear leader).

The irony to all of this is that by giving consumers a choice, Microsoft might lose out on the format war. I certainly don't like Sony's plan, but it may work.

[dawgfan]

The irony to all of this is that by giving consumers a choice, Microsoft might lose out on the format war. I certainly don't like Sony's plan, but it may work.
I don't think Microsoft really ever had anywhere near as much to gain or lose in the format war as Sony, and their decision to back HD-DVD might very well have been as much to oppose whatever Sony was promoting as anything else.

[ISiddiqui]

Indeed... I'm sure if/when Blu-Ray wins the war, MS will just begin to offer a Blu-Ray attachment to the XBox360 if consumers want it.

[TroyF]

The PS2 sales phenomenon is fascinating enough to warrant its own thread - I'm not sure there's been anything like it in terms of a past generation console kicking all but one of the next generation consoles asses in sales this far into the next-gen launch period.

The thing though is that PS2 loyalty may not mean a whole lot - many of the people buying PS2's now are ones whose prime buying issue is cost, and they are finding the best bang for their buck with the PS2 and its library. That doesn't mean that the PS3 will be the best bang for the buck at the end of this current console cycle - in fact, many signs would suggest that it isn't, though that will partly depend on how much of a draw having a Blu-Ray player becomes.

The 360 will always be cheaper than the PS3, and the Wii will always be cheaper than the 360. It's highly unlikely that Sony will ever lower the price of the PS3 to a point that Microsoft isn't willing to beat. They already have a $200 head start on price differential. And with fewer games becoming Sony exclusives, there's less incentive this time around to stay with Sony as a platform for bargain buyers.

All this said, I agree with others in thinking that the PS3 isn't going to cost Sony a place at the video game table - they may concede the market leader position, and they may even come in 3rd this time around, but I don't think they'll get buried, and they should be still be in a position to make a big jump ahead again with the PS4.

I don't think it buries them, but it hurts them. They had such a huge advantage with the PS2 that even dropping to being equals with Nintendo and MS in the video game console market is a dagger. Losing to both of them would just twist it.

The other thing is, by the comments Sony is making, they seem to think nothing is wrong with what has happened. You learn from your past mistakes, right? Sony needs to learn from this or they are going to repeat the mistake and hurt themselves even more.

I don't think MS ever expected to "catch" Sony. To be honest, I don't think they fully expected to be in the ballpark. The goal was to hammer out a niche, take some losses for the long haul and slowly, but surely, erode into Sony's market. MS could never have even dreamed Sony would botch the release so badly and let them get in the game more quickly. Of course, MS never expected the Wii to take off either. But even that's a win for MS. If Sony does nothing more this gen than drop from the top perch, MS has gained a little ground.

I'm also not sure Sony has won anything in the DVD war yet. I know above I said the battle was over and I think it is. The question is what does that really do for Sony and could they have won it anyway without this PR disaster they've created? At the end of the day, the best technology usually wins out. Even when Blu Ray wins, how long is it going to take it to get a true foothold? It's going to take a year or two, if not longer. I don't think people are going to be falling over themselves for Blu Ray next week. (and the PS3 release is pretty much proof of that, if you want to get a Blu Ray player, it's easy to get one)

Certain circumstances have caused me to seriously think about getting a PS3 in the next couple of weeks. I think I've found ways to offset the cost of the system which makes it tempting for me to do. Not positive yet, but I'm leaning toward it.

Having all three next gen systems, we'll see which gets the most fun. (all will get "work")

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think MS ever expected to "catch" Sony. To be honest, I don't think they fully expected to be in the ballpark. The goal was to hammer out a niche, take some losses for the long haul and slowly, but surely, erode into Sony's market. MS could never have even dreamed Sony would botch the release so badly and let them get in the game more quickly. Of course, MS never expected the Wii to take off either. But even that's a win for MS. If Sony does nothing more this gen than drop from the top perch, MS has gained a little ground.

I think this is key. Though I actually think that MS was optimistic that by going first they could 'catch' Sony; however, that was the upper limit of their projection. More realistically they were probably hoping to carve into Sony's massive market share in the next-gen. Bill Gates may be a brilliant businessman, but Sony completely shot itself in the foot so far with the PS3. I'm sure Gates is ecstatic that Sony's officers were so overconfident, due to the massive success of the PS2, that they didn't know how to deal with the next-gen situation once there was actual, honest-to-goodness competition (XBox 1 was ONLY to get the foot in the door. It lost a ton of $, but Gates and MS was looking at the long run).

[Groundhog]

The only possible reason that I could see myself buying a PS3 is due to the fact that the games *may* not be region coded. If College Hoops 2k8 comes out region-locked on xbox 360 and not region-locked on the PS3, that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but I think I might also need a few other big, PS3-only titles.

[WVUFAN]

Indeed... I'm sure if/when Blu-Ray wins the war, MS will just begin to offer a Blu-Ray attachment to the XBox360 if consumers want it.

And they'll pay Sony a hefty fee to do so.

[ISiddiqui]

Haven't you realized that MS doesn't really mind if it loses money this early in the 'console war'? They are going for long run domination.

[General Mike]

Haven't you realized that MS doesn't really mind if it loses money this early in the 'console war'? They are going for long run domination.

What is "long run domination" in the video game industry? None of the companies that have been #1 for a period have continued to dominate for long periods.

Atari had their period when they were dominant, but then the industry collapsed. Nintendo utterly dominated the 8-bit era, but the 16-bit era was very close, with Sega having the edge for a time. The fact that Sony has been #1 since 1996 is very impressive.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

For those that were interested, more record-setting sales numbers in France. Around 90,000 units moved and they expect to pass into 6 digit console sales by the weekend. No console has sold more (by a long shot) in France. Units sent to France were in the 120-125K range, so another Euro country launch where roughly 3/4 of the units were sold in the opening weekend.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't think Microsoft really ever had anywhere near as much to gain or lose in the format war as Sony, and their decision to back HD-DVD might very well have been as much to oppose whatever Sony was promoting as anything else.

That's Microsoft's problem right now. They want to imply that they're different than Sony, yet they make moves that are contrary to that policy. The fact that MS introduced the HD-DVD format mainly to cause a war with Sony rather than any actual belief that it would succeed is one of the worst kept secrets in the console world.

Also, the 'Elite' 360 looks to be a nod that the PS3 does have some things that they have to try to compete with and that their current offerings don't measure up. The problem is that coders still have to program with the core 360 (no HDD) in mind. I noticed today that the Elite 360 large HDD will be stuffed full of demos and movie previews that you'll have to clean out. It's kind of like a new PC when you first get it. You have to spend a couple of hours just going through the promo junk on the HDD and cleaning it out so you can actually use the space for your own purposes. Doable, but annoying.

[spleen1015]

Also, the 'Elite' 360 looks to be a nod that the PS3 does have some things that they have to try to compete with and that their current offerings don't measure up.

I guess that's why the 360 has out sold the PS3 since the PS3 launch, because it doesn't measure up.

Sheesh.

[Butter]

Lots and lots of stuff.

Do they manufacture the PS3 in Kansas City or somewhere in Missouri or something?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I guess that's why the 360 has out sold the PS3 since the PS3 launch, because it doesn't measure up.

Sheesh.

You've made my point. Why is MS putting out what could be termed a marginal improvement as a system over what is currently available when they're still selling units? Not only that, but they're putting out a system that makes the 20 GB PS3 look like a viable option. Basically, for only $20 more you can have a gaming system with a HD movie player. For the few people that needed more HDD space on their PS3, they can update to a different HDD. Sony is giving them the option to get a console/HD player at a very affordable price because most people don't need all that HDD space.

Why put Sony back into a competitive position when you're currently leading the sales race? It just doesn't make sense unless they feel they need to improve their system because of increased competition. You can also be sure that MS knows that gap is going to be closed quite a bit when the big franchises are released at the end of this year into early next year. Perhaps this is their attempt to head that off and get more consoles into homes while they still have an edge.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Do they manufacture the PS3 in Kansas City or somewhere in Missouri or something?

No, but we do currently have 0 Chiefs players in legal trouble, so I feel Chiefs fans can relax at this point.

[TroyF]

You've made my point. Why is MS putting out what could be termed a marginal improvement as a system over what is currently available when they're still selling units? Not only that, but they're putting out a system that makes the 20 GB PS3 look like a viable option. Basically, for only $20 more you can have a gaming system with a HD movie player. For the few people that needed more HDD space on their PS3, they can update to a different HDD. Sony is giving them the option to get a console/HD player at a very affordable price because most people don't need all that HDD space.

Why put Sony back into a competitive position when you're currently leading the sales race? It just doesn't make sense unless they feel they need to improve their system because of increased competition. You can also be sure that MS knows that gap is going to be closed quite a bit when the big franchises are released at the end of this year into early next year. Perhaps this is their attempt to head that off and get more consoles into homes while they still have an edge.

If this were Sony doing what MS is doing,k it would be them ahead of the curve. Instead, MS is quaking in fear because of. . . why again?

Most of the exclusives are gone. If the rumored FF exclusive is gone, I'm not sure what you have left.

And ya know, MS has a few exclusives coming out themselves. Lets see, we have Forza, Mass Effect, Shadowrun and that one game. . . what is is caled, oh, yeah, HALO 3.

If anything, MS looks to have a majority of the A list exclusives for this gen. (again, this is especially true if FF goes by the wayside for Sony)

[Travis]

Just to be devils advocate here, but once you start to referring to platform gains as "we", that does tend to wreck one's appearance as impartial ;) And no, I don't want to get into that point, it just struck me as funny is all.

To throw another question out there, how seriously does Sony quake at all while the PS2 continues to outsell both the 360 and PS3? I originally thought that people would make the decision to go MS or Sony for the new one, with a large group adding the Wii as a secondary system. Of course there'd also be a large group with only the Wii because of the price difference, but it still looks that while a large group don't care about the PS3 having the blu ray player on it, an even larger group don't appear to care enough about the next gen features period to make the financial sacrifice to upgrade. Yes, the Wii has new control methods, but certainly not a next gen graphics console in comparison to the PS2.

Depending on how long this continues for, how will it impact the next wave of consoles trying to crack the market?

I know I'm in the minority as a PS3 owner who values the Blu Ray add on and I feel like it's worth every penny, but the continued sales of the PS2 continues to amaze me with the other options available.

[spleen1015]

If Sony loses the FF exclusivity, I don't think Ratchet & Clank is enough to get me to buy a PS3.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If this were Sony doing what MS is doing,k it would be them ahead of the curve. Instead, MS is quaking in fear because of. . . why again?

Not at all. Let's take a look at the numbers.

The premium version of the console is $399. The new Elite unite has the new 65nm chip in it, which drops the chip price by roughly $100. So that's $299. Tack on HDMI and a 120GB hard drive and you're looking at a $180 price increase for a total of $479. Also, note that the 120 GB HDD alone will be offered for $180 (note that you can get a much larger storage HDD for the PS3 for the same price if you wanted to upgrade). So the difference between that Elite unit and the 20 GB PS3 is $20 which adds in the HD movie player that will likely be the format that wins that format war.

Also, consider Wifi. You can get Wifi for an additional $100 on the 360. So, the same comparison applies in that case. You can get the Elite unit with Wifi for $579. Compare that to the 60 GB PS3 which has the same thing with the HD movie player for $20 more.

FWIW......I've heard multiple podcasts (1UP and CAGcast to name a couple) that have cited a similar point. It's a bad business move by MS to bring the Sony pricing back into a position where it actually is a discount when compared to the 360 alternative.

[dawgfan]

That's Microsoft's problem right now. They want to imply that they're different than Sony, yet they make moves that are contrary to that policy. The fact that MS introduced the HD-DVD format mainly to cause a war with Sony rather than any actual belief that it would succeed is one of the worst kept secrets in the console world.
That's a major distortion of reality. HD-DVD is not just Microsoft's initiative - as a format, it was a product of many companies coming together to define a new, hi-def DVD standard, spearheaded by Toshiba and including support from NEC, Sanyo, RCA and Intel along with Microsoft. As a format, it was designed well before the 360 (it was endorsed by the DVD Forum in November, 2003 as the hi-def successor to DVD) and we all know that Microsoft opted not to use HD-DVD as the media for the 360.

Now, that's not to say that a significant factor in Microsoft continuing to endorse the HD-DVD format doesn't come from the desire to oppose Sony, but let's not go overboard by characterizing HD-DVD as solely Microsoft's product - it's far more Toshiba's than anyone else.

[dawgfan]

The problem is that coders still have to program with the core 360 (no HDD) in mind.
Dola - I don't think this is going to be a huge limiting factor. Given the low percentage of 360 owners with the core unit, many publishers will feel OK with a decision to make their games carry the requirement of having a hard drive.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If Sony loses the FF exclusivity, I don't think Ratchet & Clank is enough to get me to buy a PS3.

As was mentioned before, this just isn't going to happen. All that comment by the SCEF head did was give Square a bit more leverage in negotiations (which was dumb). The FF series in Japan was responsible for literally millions of PS2's going off the shelf. My understanding is that Square has put forth a figure that they expect the franchise to sell 3 million PS3 in Japan alone and that Sony isn't disputing that figure (i.e Sony isn't trying to say that it would only move 2M units to try to reduce the exclusivity cost). Sony has no choice but to keep the FF franchise in that case. They simply can't throw away those kind of sales.

Same thing with the MGS series. It'll still be a Sony exclusive.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Now, that's not to say that a significant factor in Microsoft continuing to endorse the HD-DVD format doesn't come from the desire to oppose Sony, but let's not go overboard by characterizing HD-DVD as solely Microsoft's product - it's far more Toshiba's than anyone else.

I agree that they do have partners in that fight.

[spleen1015]

Well, I hope my son takes the decision away from me. :) If he makes the honor roll the final term of this school year, he gets a PS3.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Well, I hope my son takes the decision away from me. :) If he makes the honor roll the final term of this school year, he gets a PS3.

Ah, awfully generous parent (though I think you may have some selfish gaming reasons intertwined in that :) ). Chances of a honor roll spot for him?

[Eaglesfan27]

As was mentioned before, this just isn't going to happen. All that comment by the SCEF head did was give Square a bit more leverage in negotiations (which was dumb). The FF series in Japan was responsible for literally millions of PS2's going off the shelf. My understanding is that Square has put forth a figure that they expect the franchise to sell 3 million PS3 in Japan alone and that Sony isn't disputing that figure (i.e Sony isn't trying to say that it would only move 2M units to try to reduce the exclusivity cost). Sony has no choice but to keep the FF franchise in that case. They simply can't throw away those kind of sales.

Same thing with the MGS series. It'll still be a Sony exclusive.

So, if they lose FF exclusivity, you'll admit that Sony is in some trouble with the PS3?

[TroyF]

As was mentioned before, this just isn't going to happen. All that comment by the SCEF head did was give Square a bit more leverage in negotiations (which was dumb). The FF series in Japan was responsible for literally millions of PS2's going off the shelf. My understanding is that Square has put forth a figure that they expect the franchise to sell 3 million PS3 in Japan alone and that Sony isn't disputing that figure (i.e Sony isn't trying to say that it would only move 2M units to try to reduce the exclusivity cost). Sony has no choice but to keep the FF franchise in that case. They simply can't throw away those kind of sales.

Same thing with the MGS series. It'll still be a Sony exclusive.

Ummm. . . isn't it kind of important for Sony to have 3 million PS3's in the hands of console owners for that to happen? They have under a million consoles sold in Japan at this point, it isn't like they are breaking all time records. Hell, they don't even have 3 million units worldwide as I type this.

And of course Sony isn't going to dispute the figures. Doing so would hurt their cause far worse than saving some pennies on the FF exclusive.

At this point in the game, more Sony exclusives are leaving than joining. That's just the reality. And the bigger reality is that MS seems to be getting some amazing exclusives themselves.

Well, off to buy the damned PS3 and Resistence (and another game if the trade ins are what I think they will be)

[dawgfan]

It's a bad business move by MS to bring the Sony pricing back into a position where it actually is a discount when compared to the 360 alternative.
I agree that it's a bad move by Microsoft to voluntarily cede some of their pricing advantage to Sony. I think it would've been better for Microsoft to introduce the Elite at $399 and drop the prices of the Premium and Core systems. I think Microsoft had better not get too cocky with their headstart in sales and milk as much price out of their hardware as they can - I think it's more important for them to be aggressive in trying to continue to outsell the PS3 and widen their market share advantage by keeping that significant price differential.

But it's important not to fall into the trap of thinking of the PS3 as a "discount" when compared to the 360 - that thinking assumes that every consumer wants a hi-def DVD player included in their gaming console. Many don't care, and many more aren't ready to choose a format - for them, it's still significantly less expensive to get a 360 than a PS3, and at very little loss of gaming quality.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So, if they lose FF exclusivity, you'll admit that Sony is in some trouble with the PS3?

It would be disasterous in Japan, which is a region they can't afford to lose. Not that MS is mounting any significant challenge, but they need to plow MS under in Japan.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Ummm. . . isn't it kind of important for Sony to have 3 million PS3's in the hands of console owners for that to happen? They have under a million consoles sold in Japan at this point, it isn't like they are breaking all time records. Hell, they don't even have 3 million units worldwide as I type this.

I think you're missing the point. Literally, 3 million Japanese consumers will walk out of the store with a new PS3 under one arm and a copy of FF under the other arm. Japan is just borderline odd in regards to their infatuation with certain gaming franchises. You simply don't see those kinds of things in the American market.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But it's important not to fall into the trap of thinking of the PS3 as a "discount" when compared to the 360 - that thinking assumes that every consumer wants a hi-def DVD player included in their gaming console. Many don't care, and many more aren't ready to choose a format - for them, it's still significantly less expensive to get a 360 than a PS3, and at very little loss of gaming quality.

In the current situation, I generally agree. You have to pay at least $100 to upgrade to a HD movie player. That's not going to do it for the people who aren't all that interested and they are certainly making the better decision at this point. But with the Elite unit, they're creating a situation where their console is actually less competitve than before they released the unit.

As you said, it would be in their best interest to just keep on with what they're doing. If they try to compete on level ground, they will likely cause themselves some problems. Their advantage is that they have a good price point for people who just want a gaming system. Don't give away that advantage by putting the system at a price that allows for comparison that may create unfavorable results.

[dawgfan]

As you said, it would be in their best interest to just keep on with what they're doing. If they try to compete on level ground, they will likely cause themselves some problems. Their advantage is that they have a good price point for people who just want a gaming system. Don't give away that advantage by putting the system at a price that allows for comparison that may create unfavorable results.
Yep. If, 2-3 years down the line, Blu-Ray emerges as the de facto hi-def DVD standard, then Sony is looking good. The PS3 will no longer look like a great gaming machine with an expensive, unproven media format tacked-on, but a cool combo machine that's relatively inexpensive given the included hardware and a great show-off toy for your new HDTV, both for games and movies.

I would think it's in Microsoft's best interests to press the advantage they have while they still have it, because I can see a very plausible scenario where Blu-Ray wins out over HD-DVD and PS3 sales start gaining on the 360. Sony has handed Microsoft a lot of opportunities to build a big lead in console sales for this round, and they haven't taken full advantage of them.

[spleen1015]

Ah, awfully generous parent (though I think you may have some selfish gaming reasons intertwined in that :) ). Chances of a honor roll spot for him?

The chances are rather small. His last report card was A, A-, B, C, C-, C-, C-. That is with him putting in a small amount of effort. He doesn't like school and doesn't apply himself. If he makes the honor roll, the $1200 I will end up spending because of it will be worth it because getting him to put forth the effort will be the reward for me.

That's why his reward is so big. It will take a lot for him to do it.

I failed to mention I promised a small HDTV to go along with it. I just might follow your lead and go with the flat screen LCD monitor.

[WVUFAN]

Not at all. Let's take a look at the numbers.

The premium version of the console is $399. The new Elite unite has the new 65nm chip in it, which drops the chip price by roughly $100.

No it doesn't.

Same chipset as the last version.

[General Mike]

The chances are rather small. His last report card was A, A-, B, C, C-, C-, C-. That is with him putting in a small amount of effort. He doesn't like school and doesn't apply himself. If he makes the honor roll, the $1200 I will end up spending because of it will be worth it because getting him to put forth the effort will be the reward for me.

That's why his reward is so big. It will take a lot for him to do it.

I failed to mention I promised a small HDTV to go along with it. I just might follow your lead and go with the flat screen LCD monitor.

He is gonna make the honor roll. That's how it works.

[Icy]

Sony has reported that the 100,000 PS3 sales have been reached in Spain so far (you can believe it or not).

I'm still on the fence about what to do, i liked a lot the 360 as i said before, and sold it because i couldn't play USA sports games. I was going to pickup a PS3 as it's region free, but RIGHT NOW i think the Xbox360 has a better value because the biggest number of games available and the LIVE system. I also hate to pay Sony for the BR when i don't care about it at all (i never used the PS2 DVD player).

Today i learned about another option, to buy an USA 360 from an online shop in Canada that ships to Europe. I know other guys who have done it
already and received it in 48 hours by DHL without any problem. Also the price is in $ so it's prety cheap for me in Euros, 300€ vs the 600€ of the PS3 so for 600€ i can buy the american 360 plus College Hoops 07, NCAA07, MLB2k7, NHL2k7 and more games. The only problem is that if it ever breaks, if i send it to Microsoft Europe, i'll get an european console back instead of my USA one, but i guess i can always sell it and buy again an USA one.

I'll consider it tonight and will decide probably tomorrow if i order that American 360 online or if i go to a local shop and buy a Ps3.

[Icy]

Dola, i think i'm going to order it now, this is what i can get for the 600€ that the PS3 costs me in Spain:

XBOX 360 Premium 5 Game Bundle 304.88EUR

GAMES INCLUDED:
Call of Duty 3
Ghost Recon
Arcade Unplugged
PGR3
Kameo

GAMES:
College Hoops 2K7 - 360 38.92EUR
Major League Baseball 2K7 - 360 45.40EUR
NBA 2K7 - 360 45.40EUR
Ghost Recon Advanced WarFighter 2 - 360 45.40EUR
NHL 2K7 - 360 38.92EUR
The Elder Scrolls IV(4): Oblivion - 360 29.19EUR
Gears of War - 360 45.40EUR

Sub-Total: 593.51EUR

[Coder]

Downside of that, Icy, is of course that you won't be getting MLB The Show :)

[Travis]

Better off getting the 360 now or waiting for the new version? Do the updated specs mean much to you?

[sabotai]

Better off getting the 360 now or waiting for the new version? Do the updated specs mean much to you?

I would say that unless you are planning on buying/downloading a lot of HD video, the "Premium" (kinda got to put that in quotes now, eh?) 360 will be fine. IMHO, MS saw the huge demand for HD video over Live and are coming out with the Elite to accomodate that crowd. So unless you are planning on using all that HD space, and you just want a gaming rig (like me, I just use it to play games and sometimes download a demo), the Premium is fine. I haven't even gotten close to using up the space on the Premium HD.

[Icy]

Downside of that, Icy, is of course that you won't be getting MLB The Show :)

Yup, that is the only minus, but i have it in the PSP and the Ps3 version keeps being delayed again and again, now it's said it will be out in the middle of May but the continuous delays don't sound good to me.

I'll be able to play MLB2k7 in the other way with this USA 360.

[sterlingice]

That's a major distortion of reality. HD-DVD is not just Microsoft's initiative - as a format, it was a product of many companies coming together to define a new, hi-def DVD standard, spearheaded by Toshiba and including support from NEC, Sanyo, RCA and Intel along with Microsoft. As a format, it was designed well before the 360 (it was endorsed by the DVD Forum in November, 2003 as the hi-def successor to DVD) and we all know that Microsoft opted not to use HD-DVD as the media for the 360.

Now, that's not to say that a significant factor in Microsoft continuing to endorse the HD-DVD format doesn't come from the desire to oppose Sony, but let's not go overboard by characterizing HD-DVD as solely Microsoft's product - it's far more Toshiba's than anyone else.

Please, please, please tell me you don't believe that Microsoft has any real interest in HD-DVD other than to try and block Sony and Blu-Ray? That first paragraph sounds like a business brochure. Microsoft's main interest in HD-DVD is to take away one of Sony's strongest selling points to the PS3 and that's pretty much it.

Don't get me wrong- it's Toshiba's baby as well as the rest of the "consortium". Mizzou's a bit overzealous in saying that MS introduced it, but their interest in it is wholly to take down Sony. Heck, the best of both worlds for Microsoft would be a split format war where everyone ended up making dual format players and they could support both sides while completely neutering any advantage Sony wanted.

SI

[sterlingice]

Ummm. . . isn't it kind of important for Sony to have 3 million PS3's in the hands of console owners for that to happen? They have under a million consoles sold in Japan at this point, it isn't like they are breaking all time records. Hell, they don't even have 3 million units worldwide as I type this.

I was going to say something but I guess this was already responded to. You know how system sellers work- they're dubbed that for a reason.

I think you're missing the point. Literally, 3 million Japanese consumers will walk out of the store with a new PS3 under one arm and a copy of FF under the other arm. Japan is just borderline odd in regards to their infatuation with certain gaming franchises. You simply don't see those kinds of things in the American market.

SI

[dawgfan]

Please, please, please tell me you don't believe that Microsoft has any real interest in HD-DVD other than to try and block Sony and Blu-Ray? That first paragraph sounds like a business brochure. Microsoft's main interest in HD-DVD is to take away one of Sony's strongest selling points to the PS3 and that's pretty much it.

Don't get me wrong- it's Toshiba's baby as well as the rest of the "consortium". Mizzou's a bit overzealous in saying that MS introduced it, but their interest in it is wholly to take down Sony. Heck, the best of both worlds for Microsoft would be a split format war where everyone ended up making dual format players and they could support both sides while completely neutering any advantage Sony wanted.

SI
I don't think you're saying anything significantly different than I am. My primary point was that HD-DVD isn't Microsoft's in the way that Blu-Ray is Sony's, contrary to the impression Mizzou was giving.

I'm not going to pretend I know all the back-door business dealings and reasonings for Microsoft backing HD-DVD. Obviously there's a big incentive for them to block Sony's initiative given their battle over the game console/media center market. But that may not be the only reason for them lining up behind HD-DVD.

[ISiddiqui]

I also doubt that the only reason MS backed HD DVD was to block Sony and the PS3. They probably figured that if HD DVD wins out, MS is in a comfy position in that market as well.

If Blu-Ray wins, oh well, not like MS can't reverse fields... it isn't like they are making these HD DVD players.

[cartman]

I seriously think that the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD fight is going to be a wash. Companies have already demonstrated that they can make a single player that can read both formats. That was not possible with the previous generation of media formats.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Today i learned about another option, to buy an USA 360 from an online shop in Canada that ships to Europe. I know other guys who have done it
already and received it in 48 hours by DHL without any problem. Also the price is in $ so it's prety cheap for me in Euros, 300€ vs the 600€ of the PS3 so for 600€ i can buy the american 360 plus College Hoops 07, NCAA07, MLB2k7, NHL2k7 and more games. The only problem is that if it ever breaks, if i send it to Microsoft Europe, i'll get an european console back instead of my USA one, but i guess i can always sell it and buy again an USA one.

I'll consider it tonight and will decide probably tomorrow if i order that American 360 online or if i go to a local shop and buy a Ps3.

Another thing to consider is that it's widely rumored that a redesigned 360 premium with the smaller chip and quieter console is going to come out for the holiday season. So you're going to end up buying a console right now that they'll replace in the near future with a redesign.

Honestly, I'm just glad I'm not you. I'm the kind of consumer that will get the itch and have to run down a buy a game. I don't have the patience to wait for a game to come across an ocean before I get it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I seriously think that the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD fight is going to be a wash. Companies have already demonstrated that they can make a single player that can read both formats. That was not possible with the previous generation of media formats.

The problem is that by the time those players get to any form of a reasonable price, there's not going to be any HD-DVD's left. It's no secret that HD-DVD is getting run over by the Blu-ray format right now.

[cartman]

The problem is that by the time those players get to any form of a reasonable price, there's not going to be any HD-DVD's left. It's no secret that HD-DVD is getting run over by the Blu-ray format right now.

It's very hard to tell, because neither side is releasing "hard" sales figures for discs. From what I can gather, since the introduction of both formats, there have been more HD-DVD discs sold than blu-ray discs. In addition, even with the sales of the PS3, there are more HD-DVD players out there than Blu-Ray players, but that lead will quickly diminish once the PS3 is on the market for a few more months.

It does appear that Blu-Ray disc sales are outpacing HD-DVD sales over the past few months by a 2 or 3 to 1 margin, but how much of that is people buying a couple of Blu-Ray movies with their new PS3? A similar spike was seen with UMD movies when the PSP was first released. What remains to be seen is if people who don't have 1080p sets with their PS3 will continue to pay a premium for blu-ray titles, or if they will stick with regular DVDs.

In any event, the lead either category has on the other is minuscule compared to the overall movie market, where 250 DVDs are sold for every next gen high-def (blu-ray/HD-DVD) title. So any lead built by the new formats over the next few months is hardly an insurmountable knockout blow.

[Daimyo]

I don't see how you can call the format war when the players are still in early adopter phase. If the price of each player halves by the holiday season, the HD-DVD player will be pretty near the $200 sweet spot for mass consumption while the Blu-Ray players will still be well above it.

[gstelmack]

Another thing to consider is that it's widely rumored that a redesigned 360 premium with the smaller chip and quieter console is going to come out for the holiday season. So you're going to end up buying a console right now that they'll replace in the near future with a redesign.

And the PS3 has already released their redesign. They ripped the Emotion engine out for Europe, remember?

The key is that the existing 360s will work just fine for a LONG time.

[SackAttack]

Just to be devils advocate here, but once you start to referring to platform gains as "we", that does tend to wreck one's appearance as impartial ;) And no, I don't want to get into that point, it just struck me as funny is all.

There's two ways to read that, though, Travis.

One is the implication you're making, that it's the old home-town "we."

The other is in the professorial sense. "Here we have..."

The usage doesn't wreck his impartiality (or lack thereof). What it does is alter your perception of it...but your perception isn't all that impartial to begin with, if your immediate interpretation of the usage of 'we' is 'woo, go Microsoft,' is it?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

And the PS3 has already released their redesign. They ripped the Emotion engine out for Europe, remember?

The key is that the existing 360s will work just fine for a LONG time.

That was a different situation. I would argue that the original PS3 is the better unit of the two, simply from a compatibility standpoint for old games. It's all the same for PS3 gaming, but I have a PS2 built in where others do not.

My point was that an improved 360 with a lower price point will likely be out in 5 months. If I wanted a 360 at this point, I definitely wouldn't buy right now. I'd wait for the fall.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't see how you can call the format war when the players are still in early adopter phase. If the price of each player halves by the holiday season, the HD-DVD player will be pretty near the $200 sweet spot for mass consumption while the Blu-Ray players will still be well above it.

Blu-ray just had a price drop and will be less than $300 by the holiday season. Price won't be a problem for either unit. That article detailing the pricing drop is linked a few pages back. There's going to be little price difference on the stand-alone player. The problem is that HD-DVD is going to be way behind in installed units at that point and most of the movie studios support Blu-ray at this point (23 of the top 25 movies last year were on Blu-ray with Universal being the only studio not using Blu-ray).

As far as the earlier argument concerning the question of whether people are just buying Blu-ray movies because they want to use them on their PS3, it doesn't matter a whole lot. Installed base is usually the one calling the shots and the Blu-ray installed base is growing further and further ahead of the HD-DVD base. MS is having troubles even selling them at this point.

[TroyF]

There's two ways to read that, though, Travis.

One is the implication you're making, that it's the old home-town "we."

The other is in the professorial sense. "Here we have..."

The usage doesn't wreck his impartiality (or lack thereof). What it does is alter your perception of it...but your perception isn't all that impartial to begin with, if your immediate interpretation of the usage of 'we' is 'woo, go Microsoft,' is it?


I honestly missed that this was probably about something I said. The exact quote was, let's see, we have. . . Not "we" in the MS sense, "we" as in all of us. I don't think there has been another time throughout the thread I've even posted the word. I think you guys are REALLY grasping at straws to prove my hatred of Sony and my love for MS.

As it stands, a big, gigantic PS3 is sitting on my shelf now. I'm still stunned I bought something for 600 bucks that didn't even include component cables, but here we are. Oh God, I said we again. Damnit.

Early thoughts:

1) I like the MS controller better. I can live with the six axis, but the MS controller fits my hands perfectly. Lets say the PS3 does win the graphical battle and looks a lot prettier. (it doesn't now, more on that later). It would be a difficult choice for me - take the better looking game or the better feeling controller.

2) Sony is lucky it isn't charging for online, because I'm not real impressed. The same setup as the PSP, which I'm also not really a fan of. I can see areas of improvement, but as of now, you get what you pay for. The 360 interface is better in just about every area. (though I didn't mind the actual gameplay in Resistence MP)

3) Resistence is fun. A LOT of fun.

4) Maybe it happens down the line as PS3 fans insist will happen, but I don't see anything in Resistence that Gears of War or Crackdown don't match in terms of graphics.

5) Did i mention the thing is big? I remember when the Xbox came out, one of the major downsides was how big the thing was. (not to mention that ridiculous bulky controller they first tried to pass on the public)

6) After all the trade ins it was a little over 400 bucks without the component cables. I'm hoping Sony gets off their asses and releases a lot of games in the next few months, because I really want to justify this purchase. The more I review, the more I trade, the less I spend in games the rest of the year. That's the goal anyway.

7) Don't ask me about BluRay. I've bought about 5 DVD's in the last year, and most of those are cartoons. I don't expect to get a BluRay movie anytime soon.


My nick is TroyF on the PS3 network for those of you who want to play sometime. I only have Resistence now and it'll probably stay that way for awhile as I see no other solid games out at the moment. (I've already beat Oblivion on the 360, nothing else looks all that appealing)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

As it stands, a big, gigantic PS3 is sitting on my shelf now. I'm still stunned I bought something for 600 bucks that didn't even include component cables, but here we are.

Your restraint in regards to impulse control is quite admirable.

The main situation you face now owning both the 360 and PS3 is that there are many titles that are released simultaneously on both consoles. Both are the same price. There's a pretty good chance that as time goes along, with the PS3 probably being the better system 'under the hood', that programmers will be able to squeeze more out of the PS3 and the PS3 version will definitely be no worse and in some cases be better than its 360 counterpart. At that point, you're basically using the 360 for exclusives on that system.

As far as games, these are the good exclusive titles available and coming in the next couple of months........

Out already:

Resistance: FOM
Motorstorm
F1 Championship Racing
Tekken 5 ($20)

Coming in next two months:

MLB 07: The Show
Heavenly Sword
Lair
Singstar


Here's the 360 list of exclusives already out in 2007 and upcoming in the next two months (I listed all the games rather than decide which were 'good' since I hadn't played any of them).....

Out already:

Bullet Witch
Crackdown
DDR: Universe
Fusion Frenzy 2
Lost Planet: Extreme Condition

Coming in next two months:

Forza 2
Halo 3


Obviously, the system seller in that list is Halo 3. However, I'm not sure that all of the Halo series fans haven't already purchased a 360 console. The boost for MS will obviously be from the software sales.

[TroyF]

Mizzou,

I'm fine on impulse control. If you read between the lines, you can see why I picked it up. If you read earlier in the thread, you'll see that I mentioned if I could get one with the cost cut down, I probably would. This wasn't a snap decision, it was something that I put a lot of thought into and should work out for me long term.

You keep saying the PS3 will be better under the hood. At this point, I see nothing to make me believe it. But it doesn't matter now. If it really is better, I have both consoles. I'm not a moron, I'm going to buy the game that plays the best. For all of you trying to convince me that my MS bias shows through and through, you have not understood a word I've said.

I've played both FI and Motorstorm, neither are the game for me. Lair looks interesting. We'll see about Heavinly Sword. Singstar has no appeal to me at all except as trade fodder if I get to review the game.

Your MS assertions, as usual, are way the hell off. First off, Halo 3 won't be out until November 1. There are also a few more A list titles due out shortly for MS than just Forza. Mass Effect and Shadowrun will be out soon as well, not to mention Guitar Hero II tomororow.

I think you are off base with the Halo thing as well. If you don't think it's going to cause a spike in systems, especially right around Christmas when we'll probably see a price drop to go with it, you are nuts.

[spleen1015]

Halo 3 is out in November.

Guitar Hero 2 is coming out this week.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Halo 3 is out in November.

Guitar Hero 2 is coming out this week.

I relied on the Wiki list for my list on 360. I don't have much idea about the games and their release dates because I don't own the system.

Also, GH2 is not an exclusive. I only was listing exclusives.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think you are off base with the Halo thing as well. If you don't think it's going to cause a spike in systems, especially right around Christmas when we'll probably see a price drop to go with it, you are nuts.

The price drop would be the reason for consoles moving. Halo may cause a minimal spike, but it would be dwarfed by the consoles moved by dropping the consoles $100 across the line.

[dawgfan]

The price drop would be the reason for consoles moving. Halo may cause a minimal spike, but it would be dwarfed by the consoles moved by dropping the consoles $100 across the line.
I think you're severely underestimating the impact Halo's release could have on console sales.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

PS3 has now passed over 3 million units worldwide.

http://www.vgcharts.org/

Even more interesting is that Europe in 2 weeks time has sold more units than Japan did in 4 months. It's a pretty good sign that the Japanese consumers are waiting for a 'big' game (FF, MGS and Kingdom Hears are the big ones to the Japanese public) before purchasing a next-gen system. If Sony can get out at least one of those games before the holidays, Japan sales will spike as well. That should be a key goal for Sony right now. Obviously, the price isn't a problem in Japan as the PS3 is cheap in Japan relatively speaking and the 360 sales are non-existant.

As far as America goes, the release of MLB 07: The Show (May) will likely be the next place to watch for a console sales spike of any sort.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think you're severely underestimating the impact Halo's release could have on console sales.

Oh, I think they'll sell a ton of Halo 3 games. I just think that a lot of Halo fans already have the console. Obviously, price cuts by Sony or MS in addition to any big titles on the PS3 will have a relative effect that is simply too hard to forecast at this point.

[dawgfan]

Oh, I think they'll sell a ton of Halo 3 games. I just think that a lot of Halo fans already have the console. Obviously, price cuts by Sony or MS in addition to any big titles on the PS3 will have a relative effect that is simply too hard to forecast at this point.
Between a possible price cut, normal holiday sales spikes and the release of Halo 3, it'll be difficult to tease out the relative impacts of each of those 3 factors. But I suspect there are a lot of gamers that have held off on buying a console so far that will find the release of Halo 3 to be the tipping point in terms of compelling exclusive content.

I don't have a 360 yet, but I'm probably going to get one in the next 6 months, and the coming availability of Halo 3 will be a definite factor.

[Daimyo]

MLB 07 is a system seller, but Halo is not?!?

[SackAttack]

Don't forget, too, there are families with kids who were 5-7 years old when the original Halo came out and they are now old enough that they will be pestering their parents for an Xbox 360 so they can play Halo 3.

It's not just about the existing fanbase of the franchise, but that there will be opportunity for growth there.

It's not that the PlayStation exclusives like FF and MGS aren't system sellers, but anecdotally I don't see at work anywhere near the number of kids begging their parents to buy them FF XII or MGS3 that I see begging for Halo and Halo 2.

All three titles are system sellers, but there's a definite nag factor in the Halo series that will help land 360's in previously non-Xbox homes when Halo 3 comes out.

[Eaglesfan27]

Don't forget, too, there are families with kids who were 5-7 years old when the original Halo came out and they are now old enough that they will be pestering their parents for an Xbox 360 so they can play Halo 3.

It's not just about the existing fanbase of the franchise, but that there will be opportunity for growth there.

It's not that the PlayStation exclusives like FF and MGS aren't system sellers, but anecdotally I don't see at work anywhere near the number of kids begging their parents to buy them FF XII or MGS3 that I see begging for Halo and Halo 2.

All three titles are system sellers, but there's a definite nag factor in the Halo series that will help land 360's in previously non-Xbox homes when Halo 3 comes out.


Exactly. I know 2 families personally that will be taking the 360 plunge for their kids when Halo 3 comes out. There has historically been a spike in sales in the Xbox when Halo has come out. Anyone who denies that the Halo series is a system seller is not being realistic.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

MLB 07 is a system seller, but Halo is not?!?

That's a very warped version of what I stated. I never questioned the sales value of the Halo franchise. My only point is that I think that a lot of people who will buy Halo already have a 360. I'm hoping there are no price cuts around the holidays so we can see the true sales value of Halo. With a price cut, the motives of the consumers become somewhat harder to figure out.

MLB 07 is not a 'system seller' per se, but I wouldn't be surprised to see extra units move over the few weeks after its release. Maybe the unit sales jump from 20K to 50K for a few weeks or something small like that. But it will be nothing when compared to the true system-sellers like FF, MGS and KH on the PS3 side.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Exactly. I know 2 families personally that will be taking the 360 plunge for their kids when Halo 3 comes out. There has historically been a spike in sales in the Xbox when Halo has come out. Anyone who denies that the Halo series is a system seller is not being realistic.

Any numbers on that spike? Just curious what kind of numbers it has done from a console standpoint previously. Halo 2 spike numbers would probably be the best example.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It's not that the PlayStation exclusives like FF and MGS aren't system sellers, but anecdotally I don't see at work anywhere near the number of kids begging their parents to buy them FF XII or MGS3 that I see begging for Halo and Halo 2.

That's because kids don't buy those games. The thought that kids somehow drive the next-gen market is pretty archaic. The average age of a gamer is now approaching 30 years old and continues to steadily rise. Adults gamers make up the majority of the market. FF and MGS are made to appeal to adult gamers. Ever seen the pictures of FF, MGS and KH release crowds in Japan? They're filled with mostly 20 and 30-something men and women. A lot of people also forget that FF and KH are huge in the female gamer market.

Also, just curious which retail chain you work for.

[Kodos]

He works at Best Buy.

[Atocep]

Any numbers on that spike? Just curious what kind of numbers it has done from a console standpoint previously. Halo 2 spike numbers would probably be the best example.

In November of '04 Microsoft reported they doubled their sales of Xbox systems from the previous month and I'd say its a safe bet they did even better in December.

Halo 3 will be a much bigger system seller than you're giving it credit for. Halo 2 sold 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and was the fastest selling game ever in the UK. NPD had it as the #2 selling game that year despite it only being available for a little over a month and a half.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In November of '04 Microsoft reported they doubled their sales of Xbox systems from the previous month and I'd say its a safe bet they did even better in December.

Halo 3 will be a much bigger system seller than you're giving it credit for. Halo 2 sold 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and was the fastest selling game ever in the UK. NPD had it as the #2 selling game that year despite it only being available for a little over a month and a half.

That'll be an interesting spot to watch. I knew the software sales were pretty high. I went over to the vgcharts.org and did some looking around. It looks like Halo 2 spiked the total number of consoles by about 1.5 million (they sold 4.5M units in 2004). I would guess that MS would be happy with a similar spike in console sales.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

He works at Best Buy.

Thanks.

[SackAttack]

That's because kids don't buy those games. The thought that kids somehow drive the next-gen market is pretty archaic. The average age of a gamer is now approaching 30 years old and continues to steadily rise. Adults gamers make up the majority of the market. FF and MGS are made to appeal to adult gamers. Ever seen the pictures of FF, MGS and KH release crowds in Japan? They're filled with mostly 20 and 30-something men and women. A lot of people also forget that FF and KH are huge in the female gamer market.

Also, just curious which retail chain you work for.

What Kodos said.

But the thing is, "average age" is one of the worst metrics to use, because if you get a 45-year-old who plays games and a couple 10-year-olds, you've got an average age of about 22, but 2/3 of that market isn't even growing pubes yet.

Additionally, you're trying to extrapolate from the demographics of release crowds in Japan to the demographics of game buyers domestically. Go hang out at Best Buy - or EBgames - for an afternoon, if you can swing it. Watch how many customers come through the door and what age bracket they fall into. I guarantee that while you will see some older teens and young adult males, that you will see a LOT of kids chaperoned by their parents. That doesn't mean they're necessarily going to buy a new system while they're there, but the kids will nag the parents. It's not all overt - "I want an Oompa Loompa NOW, Daddy!" - but it does happen. At Best Buy, kid goes and drags Mom over from the CD rack to check out this way cool awesome game he's playing. Why? Because if he can make Mom look, he has a chance of convincing Mom to buy.

And the Halo franchise has been like that. It isn't kids grabbing a game off the shelf and then working Mom or Dad over in line, it's kids bringing Mom or Dad into the gaming area, pointing to the game, and then telling them how the ratings don't matter because "it's fine, I played it at Johnny's house!"

You see this with GTA and other M-rated titles as well, as far as system-selling games go, it seems like you have two crowds. The folks who are old enough to buy their own game systems, who'll come in and buy their FF or KH or MGS or Halo or whatever.

Then you've got the kids who are either picking things out because Mom and Dad said "let's get a new game system," or the kids who are focusing on that one game they desperately want - lately it's been Gears of War, and I expect it to be Halo 3 later - and then begging, pleading, or nagging Mom and Dad (sometimes across multiple visits) until they break down.

Halo 3 will sell systems, and pre-teen kids will be a big part of why. Yes, your fanatic who has the cash to drop probably already has an Xbox 360...but you're underestimating how impactful the younger set will be in the sale of that game.

Will it double the installed base? Nope. Will Microsoft go from moving ~400,000 units the month before Halo 3 to 1.5 million or so upon its release? Probably.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But the thing is, "average age" is one of the worst metrics to use, because if you get a 45-year-old who plays games and a couple 10-year-olds, you've got an average age of about 22, but 2/3 of that market isn't even growing pubes yet.

Will it double the installed base? Nope. Will Microsoft go from moving ~400,000 units the month before Halo 3 to 1.5 million or so upon its release? Probably.

As far as the age thing, you can argue semantics, but it's quite obvious from the sales figures that the gaming population is getting older. Kudos for fitting the word 'pubes' into the conversation though. :)

As I said in the previous post, after looking at the Halo 2 spike of roughly 1.5M for the year, you second comment seems relatively reasonable.

In regards to the Japan market, while MS is all but dead over there, Sony makes a mint in Japan. It's very relavant to discuss those games and their worldwide appeal because Sony makes money no matter what the country. The 360 is fighting the console war with one hand behind their back at this point because they're really only selling in 2 of the 3 major world video game markets. They've really got to make some headway and it's got to be from the software perspective. Fighting a tech war by releasing something like the Elite unit doesn't help them. They've got to keep playing to the 'more software is better' sales pitch. That's their main advantage and they need to exploit it at a much higher level than they are now.

Also, in regards to major retailers like Best Buy, Circuit City or Gamestop, I would argue that most older gamers are a bit more price savvy than kids dragging parents into stores. I, along with most of my friends, usually buy off the internet. It doesn't take much digging to find an online store that you can save $5-10 off a new release. I rarely buy for full price, therefore, I rarely enter the retail places you're discussing unless there's a good deal I see in the weekly flyer.

[SackAttack]

As far as the age thing, you can argue semantics, but it's quite obvious from the sales figures that the gaming population is getting older. Kudos for fitting the word 'pubes' into the conversation though. :)

But as they get older, the priorities with the hobby change. You might still play games at 35 or 40, but not to the same extent and not in the same way you did at 14.

As I said in the previous post, after looking at the Halo 2 spike of roughly 1.5M for the year, you second comment seems relatively reasonable.

Yep. If the price drops at the same time (assuming a Christmasy price drop), you might actually have two factors fueling sales. But we'll have to wait and see about that.

In regards to the Japan market, while MS is all but dead over there, Sony makes a mint in Japan. It's very relavant to discuss those games and their worldwide appeal because Sony makes money no matter what the country.

But it's not as relevant to whether or not Halo 3 is going to sell systems in the markets in which Microsoft does well. That's my point. The Japanese gaming demographic is very different from the US, and comparing how they behave and which games they buy to the situations in the US and Europe is problematic at best.

The 360 is fighting the console war with one hand behind their back at this point because they're really only selling in 2 of the 3 major world video game markets. They've really got to make some headway and it's got to be from the software perspective. Fighting a tech war by releasing something like the Elite unit doesn't help them. They've got to keep playing to the 'more software is better' sales pitch. That's their main advantage and they need to exploit it at a much higher level than they are now.

I think that's mostly aimed at the people who are serious videophiles and haven't bought a system yet. It's not aimed at the mass market. They're trying to convert the people who've spent $5000 on a TV and are in the market for a sweet gaming machine to hook up to it. As time goes on, those sort of technological proselytizers become less important, but they still have an impact. Getting your machine into the homes and hands of those who spend serious money on home theater equipment is still going to be a long-term positive effect for your product.

Also, in regards to major retailers like Best Buy, Circuit City or Gamestop, I would argue that most older gamers are a bit more price savvy than kids dragging parents into stores. I, along with most of my friends, usually buy off the internet. It doesn't take much digging to find an online store that you can save $5-10 off a new release. I rarely buy for full price, therefore, I rarely enter the retail places you're discussing unless there's a good deal I see in the weekly flyer.

Agreed, older gamers are more price-savvy. But how many older gamers buy both machine and game online? Chances are, they come into the store to pick up the machine so they have it to play right NOW, and they do their game buying online where they can, as you say, save $5-10/pop.

So even that is going to be tough to analyze properly in terms of the 'why?' on console purchases. Was it Halo 3? Was it something else? Were they just ready? Hard to say if the software isn't sold at the same time.

With kids, OTOH, everything happens on the spot...and you better believe they have an impact on sales when there's a major "Everybody's gonna have it but me!" release.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But it's not as relevant to whether or not Halo 3 is going to sell systems in the markets in which Microsoft does well. That's my point. The Japanese gaming demographic is very different from the US, and comparing how they behave and which games they buy to the situations in the US and Europe is problematic at best.

I get the feeling I didn't make my point adequately. I was only responding to the point concerning the 'kid frenzy' where they bring in their parents to buy things and your point that it doesn't happen with FF, MGS and KH. I made the point about Japan, but it applies in the US. I agree that it has no relation to Halo.

In some regards, the buying frenzy is even crazier in Japan. As I said previously, Square expects the FF PS3 game to move 3 million units in Japan alone. That would dwarf our 1.5M guess on 360's moved by Halo. That also doesn't include sales that will occur in America and Europe. You could easily see 4 million units moved worldwide when FF is released (mostly in Japan, but it all counts). MS doesn't have that 3rd region to get a sales boost.

[BrianD]

Keep in mind that Halo 2 was the second Halo game available for the Xbox. The original Halo was a huge system seller and even with all of those systems already sold, Halo 2 was a second wave system seller. With Halo 3 being the first of the franchise for the 360, I would expect it to cause a huge boost in 360 sales.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Keep in mind that Halo 2 was the second Halo game available for the Xbox. The original Halo was a huge system seller and even with all of those systems already sold, Halo 2 was a second wave system seller. With Halo 3 being the first of the franchise for the 360, I would expect it to cause a huge boost in 360 sales.

Yes, but the 360 is over 18 months into its life cycle. Halo was an early title. Halo 2 was a mid to late life cycle title, hence the reason it's probably a better comparison. It was more hyped than the original ever was.

[Icy]

The excitement seems over for the Ps3 in Europe:


Sales down dramatically on second week of release

Sales of the PlayStation 3 have dropped dramatically on the second week of release in the UK, with official Chart Track figures revealing a fall of 82 per cent.

Chart Track data is gathered from 7000 UK retail outlets representing 90 per cent of the software market, including GAME, Gamestation, Play.com, Asda and HMV.

A spokesperson for Chart Track confirmed the figure to GamesIndustry.biz this afternoon, stating: "Yes, sales of PS3 hardware have dropped by 82 per cent."

Last week, Chart Track revealed that the PlayStation 3 had sold 165,000 units in the first two days following the launch, making it the fastest-selling home console in the UK.

"We publish the first week figures because there's such a clamour for them that we can't keep it a secret," said the spokesperson.

This week's software charts revealed that sales of the top two PlayStation 3 titles, Resistance: Fall of Man and MotorStorm, had dropped by over 60 per cent.

Sony Computer Entertainment Europe declined to comment.


The main problem i see is the lack of games. There are jokes in Spanish console forums about why did Sony release the Ps3 with the sixaxis when the blueray controler was all that you need to watch movies because there are no games to play.

Look at the future game releases in Europe (day:month format) and cry:

26.04. Madden NFL 2007
24.05. NBA Street Homecourt
14.06. Ninja Gaiden Sigma
28.06. Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
xx.06. Folks Soul
xx.07. Wangan Midnight
xx.07. Hot Shots Golf 7

[SirFozzie]

Icy beat me to it.

They didn't sell out of launch allocation, that's an indication that demand has been met.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The excitement seems over for the Ps3 in Europe:

[/SIZE][/FONT]


The main problem i see is the lack of games. There are jokes in Spanish console forums about why did Sony release the Ps3 with the sixaxis when the blueray controler was all that you need to watch movies because there are no games to play.

Look at the future game releases in Europe (day:month format) and cry:

26.04. Madden NFL 2007
24.05. NBA Street Homecourt
14.06. Ninja Gaiden Sigma
28.06. Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
xx.06. Folks Soul
xx.07. Wangan Midnight
xx.07. Hot Shots Golf 7

I'm not sure why you're surprised by this. There's never been a major launch in Europe where they actually had enough supply to meet demand. Second week numbers usually don't drop as much because there are still consumers in the following weeks that were unable to get consoles in the launch week.

This is yet another situation where consumer and media reactions are actually encouraging restricted supply in future releases to create an artificial demand that simply isn't there. The numbers from the first two weeks of the PS3 release dwarf any other console other than PSP.

Another damned if you do, damned if you don't situation that people are throwing on top of Sony.

[gstelmack]

Here is the problem with the conspiracy theory and your "damned if they do, damned if they don't" proposal:

It is IMPOSSIBLE to meet launch demand unless you are making consoles for a LONG time before launch. In which case you go a long time without making any money. The console makers have the assembly lines running full steam months ahead of the launch, and typically still can't meet demand.

Microsoft ran into some well-publicized issues with a third fab and some of the suppliers that cut into their supply a bit, but this meant it was longer before the post-launch consoles hit shelves rather than there being a shortage on the day of launch.

The problem is not a restricted supply (there is only a finite number you can make, and you don't want to have a whole bunch of extra fabs that only produce for a couple of months to meet launch demand that you then have to close for post-launch), it's a huge demand at launch time (typically).

Sony's problem is not enough people were excited enough to pick it up at launch (unlike the Wii or 360), or even in the short window afterward when there were consoles just sitting around.

Heck, even in America where there was a huge launch demand and consoles all over eBay, we had stories all over this forum of people RETURNING their PS3s after making the impulse by on launch day. They weren't trying eBay or other methods to make a profit, they were just returning them to the stores as not worth the value.

Sony's fundamental problem is lack of demand, pure and simple. The European numbers show that the hardcore Playstation people got theirs on launch day, and no one else is interested at the current price point / title selection.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here is the problem with the conspiracy theory and your "damned if they do, damned if they don't" proposal......

Sony's fundamental problem is lack of demand, pure and simple. The European numbers show that the hardcore Playstation people got theirs on launch day, and no one else is interested at the current price point / title selection.

Yet they sold more on launch day that any other console......ever. And they still sold 30,000 units in the second week, which is nothing to scoff at either. It's just dwarfed by the launch numbers. The '82% drop!' title is nothing more than a nice play on percentages, but they now have an installed base of over 200,000 units in the UK alone in 10 days and will likely passed 1M units by the end of April (www.vgcharts.org hasn't updated for this week, so we don't have firm numbers yet to project). That's big no matter how you want to filet that fish.

Title selection is somewhat of a problem, though there will be plenty more titles by the holiday season and, unless you're one of those people who buys a ton of games, there's enough quality titles to keep the users busy.

[Icy]

Yet they sold more on launch day that any other console......ever. And they still sold 30,000 units in the second week, which is nothing to scoff at either. It's just dwarfed by the launch numbers. The '82% drop!' title is nothing more than a nice play on percentages, but they now have an installed base of over 200,000 units in the UK alone in 10 days and will likely passed 1M units by the end of April (www.vgcharts.org (http://www.vgcharts.org) hasn't updated for this week, so we don't have firm numbers yet to project). That's big no matter how you want to filet that fish.

Title selection is somewhat of a problem, though there will be plenty more titles by the holiday season and, unless you're one of those people who buys a ton of games, there's enough quality titles to keep the users busy.

I'm starting to wonder why do you seem to defend Sony this way, you really look their PR. I think this forum is one of the less biased sites and that is why most of us love to read reviews here, we all are huge games fans but not fanboys of any brand, company, etc.

I think that most of us are being or trying to be really objective, posting stats etc and commenting them, both criticizing and praising both consoles, but you are answering to each post one by one, like if you had some things to explain and to convince each one of us instead of commenting the overall situation. Anyway nothing against you, just that you seem a bit defensive like if we wanted the Ps3 to fail or something and that if your life depends from it.

Ok, back to trying to be objective again. I have owned the 360 and loved it, but hated the region code thing and ended selling it, i'm going to end probably buying a PS3 as are region free and because probably they will end winning the console war in Spain, and i think it's better to be a sheep in this case as at least for me, if the PS3 wins the war here, more games will be available for me etc. But the true is that right now, at least in Europe, there are no games for the PS3, and the ones available are some that have been already available for the 360 since months ago, and in most of the cases are worse quallity ports.

Look at one future release: 26.04. Madden NFL 2007

Come on, we are closer to the 2008 season than to the past 2007 season, you can't expect Madden 2007 to drive your future sales here, this game should have been available since release day as anyway it's an old game. There are more examples of this, like NBA2k7, Marvel Ultimate Alliance etc.

The high price (remember, $800 for us) and the lack of games are the main reason of the PS3 not being the monster it could have been with better planning from Sony.

This is how Sony could have won already the war in Europe (or at least in Spain that i know better):

- Having the same price than in USA, if the PS3 there is $600, it should cost us around 500€ after the conversion, not $800. Why should we pay more for the same item when your costs are the same? If the Euro is stronger, better or worse for us, but it's the bank who should make the conversion, not Sony. That is why i also criticized SI Games past year when they released OOTP2006 more expensive for Europeans.

- Not selling us a worse console at higher price. They removed the PS2 hardware chip from the European console, removing most of the compatibility with PS2 games as the software emulation is really bad (choppy gameplay, lots of games freezing the console etc).

- Not including the damn BR. As HD is not a reality in Europe yet, not any channel in TV is broadcasted in HD, the price of the HD ready TV's is huge etc. When i discussed this with some friends, they all asked? blue what?? and i have seen the same asked in some forums.

Remember in Europe we are around 1 or 2 years behind USA/Japan so why do we need a BR player?? Because it will be the future in 3 or 4 years? well then release it as an extra in 3 or 4 years.

- Making deals with the game developers to have their European version of games ready for the launch day, as most of people buys a console to play games, with no games, no consoles sold. (This is really damaging the PS3 after the release day excitement).

And i'm not saying all that because i have anything against Sony, but because i frequent a lot of Spanish gaming forums and those are the general feelings, i would copy & paste from there but it's in Spanish language.

Sony thought they had the war won and relaxed too much and now they are paying for it. Of course it doesn't mean they won't be the top sellers here in some years, as for sure they will be and here is why:

- No adds at all in Spanish TV about the 360 since GOW was released some months ago vs tons of PS3 adds in TV right now.

- No brand name for Xbox in Spain while Playstation is the console here. When a person talks about playing a console, they talk about playing "la play" (the Play) like if there wasn't any other console in the market, in fact most of people doesn't know what a 360 or Wii is unless they are serious gamers.

- You enter a big supermarket, close to the entrance, you see a huge Sony stand with a Ps3 and a 32" Full HD Sony Bravia TV and like 10 kids playing Motorstorm. Somewhere hidden in the electronics area, you see a 360 plugged in a cheap TFT monitor and turned off.

That is for sure Microsoft fault, with the same PR that Sony does in Spain, Microsoft could have take the chance to become huge here and they didn't so once the games start to be released and after a possible price drop for the next Christmas campaign, PS3 will win the war here for sure.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think that most of us are being or trying to be really objective, posting stats etc and commenting them, both criticizing and praising both consoles, but you are answering to each post one by one, like if you had some things to explain and to convince each one of us instead of commenting the overall situation. Anyway nothing against you, just that you seem a bit defensive like if we wanted the Ps3 to fail or something and that if your life depends from it.

- Having the same price than in USA, if the PS3 there is $600, it should cost us around 500€ after the conversion, not $800. Why should we pay more for the same item when your costs are the same? If the Euro is stronger, better or worse for us, but it's the bank who should make the conversion, not Sony. That is why i also criticized SI Games past year when they released OOTP2006 more expensive for Europeans.

I've said numerous times in this thread that if you solely want a gaming machine in the U.S., the 360 is the choice at this point (Europe obviously has region issues with the 360). I also have stated that the Wii is a great machine for those that love the Nintendo first-party titles (which that is a lot of people). I've also been extremely critical of the Sony executive team, to the point where I called them 'jackasses'. I've also been very critical of some of their early releases. I may be a happy PS3 owner, but I'm not oblivious to what the other systems having going for them or to the problems that Sony has in some situations.

I would note that importing a PS3 for a European gamer is a viable option now. Sony cut down on the importing while the PS3 was not available in Europe, but it's now perfectly legal to purchase units from importers like PlayAsia or North American retailers. You can get the console much cheaper as long as you find a reasonable shipping cost. It's an option that you should at least take a look at if you do want a PS3 in Europe and find the cost to be too high.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here you go, Icy. British retailer (WH Smith) has a sale on PS3's through April 10th......

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/26423/WH-Smith-slashes-PS3-price

[BrianD]

Here you go, Icy. British retailer (WH Smith) has a sale on PS3's through April 10th......

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/26423/WH-Smith-slashes-PS3-price

Yes, they are "slashing" the price and offering a "significant price cut" of 25 pounds. :)

Not mocking Mizzou here, just having fun with the ad.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Today, we have a Microsoft executive doing his best impression of Phil Harrison. Do these executives seriously think before they speak????? Evidently he hasn't bought a 120GB HDD recently.........

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/04/microsoft-defends-120gb-xbox-hdd-price/

Aaron Greenberg, Microsoft's group product manager, told Game Theory yesterday that the 120GB external drive for the Xbox 360 is not overpriced at $179. Said Greenberg, "If you compare what we are offering with a real plug-and-play drive the closest thing would be to take a 120-gig self-powered external PC drive, and in that case we are seeing those retail at anywhere from $160 to $200 for comparable laptop-sized external hard drives."

Uhhhhh, you can get one for $80-90 right now, Aaron.

This comment is about as dumb as the one where the Sony executive offered $1200 if you could find a PS3 in stock in North America.

[gstelmack]

Aaron Greenberg, Microsoft's group product manager, told Game Theory yesterday that the 120GB external drive for the Xbox 360 is not overpriced at $179. Said Greenberg, "If you compare what we are offering with a real plug-and-play drive the closest thing would be to take a 120-gig self-powered external PC drive, and in that case we are seeing those retail at anywhere from $160 to $200 for comparable laptop-sized external hard drives."

Uhhhhh, you can get one for $80-90 right now, Aaron.

Link please (to a comparable laptop-sized self-powered 120 GB external hard drive).

I haven't found a 150GB+ external HD for backup purposes that I was willing to buy for less than $150, although they have been getting closer to $100. If you can link to one, I might buy one...

Edit: Never mind, found one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136059 $95 for 120GB 2.5" no-power-supply-needed drive. You are correct, Microsoft needs to go shopping.

Edit Again: Well, he did say retail.

[SackAttack]

Yet they sold more on launch day that any other console......ever. And they still sold 30,000 units in the second week, which is nothing to scoff at either. It's just dwarfed by the launch numbers. The '82% drop!' title is nothing more than a nice play on percentages, but they now have an installed base of over 200,000 units in the UK alone in 10 days and will likely passed 1M units by the end of April (www.vgcharts.org hasn't updated for this week, so we don't have firm numbers yet to project). That's big no matter how you want to filet that fish.

Wow. Where are you getting that "1M units by the end of April"?

The launch day in the UK went well for them - one of the few really bright spots they've had with the PS3 launches so far - but that's one day, and the subsequent week didn't even sell out the remaining stock. Just 30k units moved.

As you say, nothing to scoff at, but in order to go from 200k to 1M by the end of April, that assumes that you're going to see roughly a 7x increase in sales over last week each of the next 3-4 weeks. I don't see it.

Today, we have a Microsoft executive doing his best impression of Phil Harrison. Do these executives seriously think before they speak????? Evidently he hasn't bought a 120GB HDD recently.........

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/04/mi...box-hdd-price/

Aaron Greenberg, Microsoft's group product manager, told Game Theory yesterday that the 120GB external drive for the Xbox 360 is not overpriced at $179. Said Greenberg, "If you compare what we are offering with a real plug-and-play drive the closest thing would be to take a 120-gig self-powered external PC drive, and in that case we are seeing those retail at anywhere from $160 to $200 for comparable laptop-sized external hard drives."

Uhhhhh, you can get one for $80-90 right now, Aaron.

This comment is about as dumb as the one where the Sony executive offered $1200 if you could find a PS3 in stock in North America.

I see some in the $120 range, but I haven't seen any as low as $80-90.

That said, yeah, it's overpriced, and yeah, it would've been better for Microsoft not to say anything at all than something easily dismissed. Can't argue with that.

[Butter]

I hope this mild disagreement continues until the end of time!

[dawgfan]

I hope this mild disagreement continues until the end of time!
I would rate console brand fanaticism a solid #2 behind operating system fanaticism in the realm of things people blow waaaaay out of proportion.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow. Where are you getting that "1M units by the end of April"?

As you say, nothing to scoff at, but in order to go from 200k to 1M by the end of April, that assumes that you're going to see roughly a 7x increase in sales over last week each of the next 3-4 weeks. I don't see it.

I see some in the $120 range, but I haven't seen any as low as $80-90.

The 200K number is UK only. The overall sales in Europe are around 700K at this point. With a rough sales number over the next 5 weeks around 50K (which is what they sold this week), I suppose it would only be 950K instead of 1M, so if you want to quibble over 50K, that's fine.

As far as the HDD prices, there are several sites linked in the article with sub $100 prices, as low as $80 in some cases. They're ridiculously cheap and will likely be more in the $60-70 price range by the end of summer.

[spleen1015]

This thread needs to be identified as a political thread.

Both sides keep pointing out why their side is better than the other side isn't.

[sabotai]

This thread needs to be identified as a political thread.

Both sides keep pointing out why their side is better than the other side isn't.

Hehe

[stevew]

Link please (to a comparable laptop-sized self-powered 120 GB external hard drive).

I haven't found a 150GB+ external HD for backup purposes that I was willing to buy for less than $150, although they have been getting closer to $100. If you can link to one, I might buy one...

Edit: Never mind, found one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136059 $95 for 120GB 2.5" no-power-supply-needed drive. You are correct, Microsoft needs to go shopping.

Edit Again: Well, he did say retail.

Yeah, retail is not buying the product at newegg. Retail is finding it at bestbuy, circuitcity, etc. Where the tech unsavvy shop.

[KWhit]

I would rate console brand fanaticism a solid #2 behind operating system fanaticism in the realm of things people blow waaaaay out of proportion.

As somebody who doesn't give a rat's ass about consoles, I continue to be amazed by the blind loyalty I see in this thread. It's amazing, really.

Some of these posts truly defy logic.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yeah, retail is not buying the product at newegg. Retail is finding it at bestbuy, circuitcity, etc. Where the tech unsavvy shop.

So we're now to assume one of the MS execs is 'tech unsavvy'? :) That's certainly an interesting development.

[SackAttack]

The 200K number is UK only. The overall sales in Europe are around 700K at this point. With a rough sales number over the next 5 weeks around 50K (which is what they sold this week), I suppose it would only be 950K instead of 1M, so if you want to quibble over 50K, that's fine.

That's the discrepancy, then. I read that assertion as saying that there would be a 1M installed base in the UK by the end of April, and I think you'll agree there is no chance in hell of THAT happening.

Europe? Okay, I can see that.

[KWhit]

So we're now to assume one of the MS execs is 'tech unsavvy'? :) That's certainly an interesting development.

Uh, no. But "retail" implies buying it at a brick and morter store, not at newegg.com.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Uh, no. But "retail" implies buying it at a brick and morter store, not at newegg.com.

That's a very nice out for the exec, but it's idiotic to imply that technology isn't available for anything less than retail. Any person that has any basic knowledge regarding technology knows it can be had for far less. You're really stretching here. If you actually believe that he planned in advance to say the word 'retail' in his statement to hopefully sneak that comment by, I'll believe you. That would make him 'Captain Half-Truth' because he knowingly made a comment that he knew wasn't completely true. Either way, it was a very poor choice of words.

[st.cronin]

wow

[BrianD]

That's a very nice out for the exec, but it's idiotic to imply that technology isn't available for anything less than retail. Any person that has any basic knowledge regarding technology knows it can be had for far less. You're really stretching here. If you actually believe that he planned in advance to say the word 'retail' in his statement to hopefully sneak that comment by, I'll believe you. That would make him 'Captain Half-Truth' because he knowingly made a comment that he knew wasn't completely true. Either way, it was a very poor choice of words.

I think he said 'retail' because most people buy retail. Anybody know of a good site to test this assertion?

[KWhit]

That's a very nice out for the exec, but it's idiotic to imply that technology isn't available for anything less than retail. Any person that has any basic knowledge regarding technology knows it can be had for far less. You're really stretching here. If you actually believe that he planned in advance to say the word 'retail' in his statement to hopefully sneak that comment by, I'll believe you. That would make him 'Captain Half-Truth' because he knowingly made a comment that he knew wasn't completely true. Either way, it was a very poor choice of words.


I'm really stretching. That's funny.

[sabotai]

I don't get it. The external 120GB drive for the XBox 360 is retailing at $179, and it's wrong for him to compare it to the retail price of comparable external hard drives for laptops?

[cartman]

I don't get it. The external 120GB drive for the XBox 360 is retailing at $179, and it's wrong for him to compare it to the retail price of comparable external hard drives for laptops?

The logic, it burns

[Daimyo]

I don't think this word retail means what you think it means.

[Fidatelo]

You guys need to realise that there is absolutely no point in arguing this with Mizzou.

[Groundhog]

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT THE LAUNCH AND SUBSEQUENT SALES OF THE PS3 HAVE PERHAPS NOT BEEN AS GOOD AS SONY MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't get it. The external 120GB drive for the XBox 360 is retailing at $179, and it's wrong for him to compare it to the retail price of comparable external hard drives for laptops?

So you seriously think he intentionally said 'retail' because he knew that they sold for far less elsewhere and he wanted to make sure that the discussion only involved the retail price? OK, we'll assume that's correct for sake of argument.

Assuming that he's only talking retail, are we to assume that the 120GB HDD for the 360 will be available for $80-90 at places like Newegg? Because it's the same thing, right?

This executive made an absolutely idiotic blunder. I will say that there he should quickly employ a couple of FOF posters for damage control purposes. My guess is that you all could do a better job at his job than he can.

[cartman]

I think the funniest thing in the history of ever would be to see Mizzou B-Ball's reaction to an announcement that EA bought the gaming arm of Sony.

:D

In regards to pricing, if you can show me any statement by any exec in the consumer space that references anything other than MSRP when describing their pricing or comparing to other products pricing, I'm all ears.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think the funniest thing in the history of ever would be to see Mizzou B-Ball's reaction to an announcement that EA bought the gaming arm of Sony.

Even the Sony execs wouldn't do that, right????? ;)

[KWhit]

You guys need to realise that there is absolutely no point in arguing this with Mizzou.

I think he owns a shitload of Sony stock options.

Either that or Bill Gates ran over his dog.

[KWhit]

And I know I'll probably get corrected by Mizzou after posting this, but...

The PS3 does NOT cure cancer.

[spleen1015]

And I know I'll probably get corrected by Mizzou after posting this, but...

The PS3 does NOT cure cancer.

Google, homie. A Sony exec made this claim just yesterday.

[ISiddiqui]

I think he owns a shitload of Sony stock options.

"Sir, we suggest you divest your portfolio, you have 95% in Sony stock"
"I know what I'm doing, damn it!"

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think he owns a shitload of Sony stock options.

Either that or Bill Gates ran over his dog.

Not sure why a person who "doesn't give a rat's ass about consoles" feels the need to launch personal attacks. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. Move along. I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. It's my opinion and nothing more. I certainly don't think it warrants a personal attack.

[ISiddiqui]

I think it's because the bias is so obvious that even someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about consoles can see it, but perhaps that's just another personal attack?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think it's because the bias is so obvious that even someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about consoles can see it, but perhaps that's just another personal attack?

I've already stated that I have a PS3 and enjoy it. Is that considered trying to hide my bias? With that said, I don't think bias has anything to do with having a discussion without attacking another poster. Even Troy, Eaglesfan27, SackAttack and dawgfan, who have disagree with me on some points, have been respectful in their comments.

Also, color me shocked if I'm the only one with bias in this thread. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, but bias is part of any discussion with a group of people.

[heybrad]

...but bias is part of any discussion with a group of people.
But it's pretty darn funny when it's so overtly over the top bias and yet mostly unrecognized.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But it's pretty darn funny when it's so overtly over the top bias and yet mostly unrecognized.

I agree. I've been very forward in my bias. Others are acting like their bias is non-existent.

[Bee]

Sorry for the loss of your dog.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Back on topic.......

Gears of War updates were posted and then pulled. Looks like release date is April 9th.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/05/new-gears-of-war-gametype-detailed-dated-and-pulled/

[MJ4H]

I agree. I've been very forward in my bias. Others are acting like their bias is non-existent.

Compared to yours, it is.

[ISiddiqui]

Is pointing out (over the top) bias now considered a personal attack?

[Eaglesfan27]

You guys need to realise that there is absolutely no point in arguing this with Mizzou.


Exactly. I really think he owns massive amounts of Sony stock or works for them.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Is pointing out (over the top) bias now considered a personal attack?

Assuming your talking about my stance that the MS exec made a fool of himself yesterday regarding his HDD comments, please go ahead and post your opinion on the situation. It's pretty hard to respond to what you've said when you've gone out of your way to avoid actually making a point on the subject.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Exactly. I really think he owns massive amounts of Sony stock or works for them.

I own no stock and I work for the federal government. Hence the reason I have tons of time to post. :)

[KWhit]

Not sure why a person who "doesn't give a rat's ass about consoles" feels the need to launch personal attacks. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. Move along. I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. It's my opinion and nothing more. I certainly don't think it warrants a personal attack.

Personal attack? Are you serious?

I think he owns a shitload of Sony stock options.
Either that or Bill Gates ran over his dog.

That's a personal attack now? Sheesh.

[ISiddiqui]

It wasn't me who was doing it, but those you accused of personal attacks.

On the MS exec, I agree with those who have already posted that compared to the prices of similar sized hard drives in other retail outlets (which is what he was comparing it to) his comments are not out of line at all. I mean, not like MS's hard drive is going to find its way into places like Newegg.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It wasn't me who was doing it, but those you accused of personal attacks.

On the MS exec, I agree with those who have already posted that compared to the prices of similar sized hard drives in other retail outlets (which is what he was comparing it to) his comments are not out of line at all. I mean, not like MS's hard drive is going to find its way into places like Newegg.

OK, pick any other site that could sell both units (the MS and PC drives). Do you think that they would sell the MS drive for anything less than $179? I doubt they would. They use the propriatary format as a means to control the pricing. I would think that most 360 owners would love the option of even a 3rd party HDD for the 360 to give Microsoft some form of competition. Something like the situation that currently exists with controllers. Some people prefer the 1st party controllers, but there are cheaper 3rd party alternatives.

[dawgfan]

I'm going to have to side with Mizzou on the 360 hard drive issue. While I'm less bothered by the exec's statements (what's he supposed to say: "We're gouging y'all"?), I think MS is pushing a little too hard right now to earn back some profit on hardware with the 360. The more they do this kind of thing, the more they allow the PS3 to catch up. It wouldn't shock me if MS got cocky and didn't immediately drop 360 prices when Sony does their first PS3 price drop, but I think that would be a huge mistake.

The bigger mistake here by MS was to inflate the hard drive price.

[Fidatelo]

Mizzou, this same thing happened in the Penguins relocation thread, and this isn't meant to be an attack, just an observation. You seem to have the rosiest-colored glasses of anyone that I've ever come into contact with. It makes discussions of this nature very frustrating and mostly moot because you refuse to concede _anything_ regardless of the mounting evidence presented by the other side.

[Atocep]

I'm going to have to side with Mizzou on the 360 hard drive issue. While I'm less bothered by the exec's statements (what's he supposed to say: "We're gouging y'all"?), I think MS is pushing a little too hard right now to earn back some profit on hardware with the 360. The more they do this kind of thing, the more they allow the PS3 to catch up. It wouldn't shock me if MS got cocky and didn't immediately drop 360 prices when Sony does their first PS3 price drop, but I think that would be a huge mistake.

The bigger mistake here by MS was to inflate the hard drive price.

I agree 100%. MS is a little too comfortable right now and its showing. They could have effectively ended the "war" by introducing the Elite 360 and lowering the price of the other 360 packages.

[Eaglesfan27]

I agree that MS should be putting their foot to the throat and lowering the pricing of their other 360 packages while coming out with the Elite.


On another note, Forza 2 screen shots look amazing and it has been announced that the demo "will be out very soon" and the game will be released on May 15th. I received many hours of enjoyment out of the original and am looking forward to the release in May.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I agree that MS should be putting their foot to the throat and lowering the pricing of their other 360 packages while coming out with the Elite.


On another note, Forza 2 screen shots look amazing and it has been announced that the demo "will be out very soon" and the game will be released on May 15th. I received many hours of enjoyment out of the original and am looking forward to the release in May.

Doesn't Forza have damage modeling???? I believe that's correct. I'm really hoping that the new GT is going to have damage modeling after the long wait. There's no excuse for every simulator racing game except GT to have damage modeling. It makes it seem silly to call it the 'ultimate' racing simulator when you can't even wreck a car in it.

[sabotai]

In regards to pricing, if you can show me any statement by any exec in the consumer space that references anything other than MSRP when describing their pricing or comparing to other products pricing, I'm all ears.

Exactly. No exec who is selling a product ever compares the retail price of his product to anything other than the retail price of other products. I agree that MS should be selling it cheaper (to further put their foot on Sony's throat), but acting like his statement was as bad as the Sony exec's "Find me a PS3 and I'll give you $1200" comment is completely absurd.

[KWhit]

Exactly. No exec who is selling a product ever compares the retail price of his product to anything other than the retail price of other products. I agree that MS should be selling it cheaper (to further put their foot on Sony's throat), but acting like his statement was as bad as the Sony exec's "Find me a PS3 and I'll give you $1200" comment is completely absurd.

Yes, exactly.

[SirFozzie]

Nintendo now reckons it will sell have sold rather more Wii and DS consoles during its recently closed financial year than it previously suggested, the videogames pioneer announced today.

The Japanese company isn't due to publish its results until 26 April, but today it said it expects to report full-year sales of ¥966bn ($8.1bn/£4.1bn), up from a previous forecast of ¥900bn ($7.6bn/£3.8bn).

Nintendo's announced comes two days after the company was shown to have topped the chart for sales of next-generation consoles in the US during February.

In the same week, Sony's rival machine, the PlayStation 3, saw UK sales fall 82 per cent in the second seven-day period after the console's launch here, according to local sales monitor ChartTrack.

The fact that FOUR months after christmas, people are still reporting 25 people lined up to purchase a Wii at retailers is amazing.

[Kodos]

MS should eliminate the cheapo 360, move the premium to the cheapo's current price, and then introduce the elite one at the current premium price. It would help developers be confident that they can use the hard drive without hurting their sales too much, and it would eliminate one of Sony's advantages.

[WVUFAN]

I bought a 360 today, in anticipation of Mass Effect.

It's a really good system, and NCAA Football 07 looks very nice on it.

I feel dirty in saying the above words.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

New numbers (which was actually the original topic :) ) coming out of Japan. In two months, the PS3 has cut the Wii's sales ratio overall from 4 to 1 down to 2 to 1. That would certainly seem to be a positive sign, especially given that the Wii is over 50% cheaper than the PS3.

MS has GOT to find a way to get into the Japanese market. They're giving away a large piece of the console market by not competing in this region. It's allowing the other consoles to cut into their installed base lead bit by bit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23997

Wii still outselling PlayStation 3 in Japan, but gap between Sony and Nintendo narrowing fast
Ellie Gibson 11:12 (BST) 04/04/2007


The latest figures from Famitsu publisher Enterbrain have revealed that the Nintendo Wii is outselling PlayStation 3 by two to one in Japan.

As reported by Bloomberg, 1.95 million Wii units were sold in the territory between console launch on December 2 and March 25. The PlayStation 3 went on sale in Japan on November 11, and 812,000 units were sold by March 25.

However, it would appear that the gap between Sony and Nintendo is narrowing. Media Create previously announced that during the last week of January, the ratio of Wii to PS3 units sold was four to one.

Enterbrain figures for Xbox 360 sales were not reported, but Microsoft has yet to secure a foothold in the Japanese market. Sales were boosted in December by the release of platform exclusive Blue Dragon, but generally fail to top four figures on a weekly basis.

[oykib]

New numbers (which was actually the original topic :) ) coming out of Japan. In two months, the PS3 has cut the Wii's sales ratio overall from 4 to 1 down to 2 to 1. That would certainly seem to be a positive sign, especially given that the Wii is over 50% cheaper than the PS3.

MS has GOT to find a way to get into the Japanese market. They're giving away a large piece of the console market by not competing in this region. It's allowing the other consoles to cut into their installed base lead bit by bit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23997

Wii still outselling PlayStation 3 in Japan, but gap between Sony and Nintendo narrowing fast
Ellie Gibson 11:12 (BST) 04/04/2007


The latest figures from Famitsu publisher Enterbrain have revealed that the Nintendo Wii is outselling PlayStation 3 by two to one in Japan.

As reported by Bloomberg, 1.95 million Wii units were sold in the territory between console launch on December 2 and March 25. The PlayStation 3 went on sale in Japan on November 11, and 812,000 units were sold by March 25.

However, it would appear that the gap between Sony and Nintendo is narrowing. Media Create previously announced that during the last week of January, the ratio of Wii to PS3 units sold was four to one.

Enterbrain figures for Xbox 360 sales were not reported, but Microsoft has yet to secure a foothold in the Japanese market. Sales were boosted in December by the release of platform exclusive Blue Dragon, but generally fail to top four figures on a weekly basis.

Lies, damned lies, and the above article. There is no buzz for the PS3 here. I was genuinely shocked at how badly Sony screwed the pooch here. As you said, M$ has no impact here. So it's a two-horse race.

About a week ago was the first chance to get a Wii for anyone for about a month and a half. It's the first shipment Nintendo's had here that I saw the Wii lasting in stores for more than a day. They dropped on Sunday. They were all sold out by Wednesday night.

PS#s are on the shelves everywhere. But more troubling for Sony backers is the fact that used PS3s are also available everywhere.

[BrianD]

Lies, damned lies, and the above article. There is no buzz for the PS3 here. I was genuinely shocked at how badly Sony screwed the pooch here. As you said, M$ has no impact here. So it's a two-horse race.

About a week ago was the first chance to get a Wii for anyone for about a month and a half. It's the first shipment Nintendo's had here that I saw the Wii lasting in stores for more than a day. They dropped on Sunday. They were all sold out by Wednesday night.

PS#s are on the shelves everywhere. But more troubling for Sony backers is the fact that used PS3s are also available everywhere.

The PS3 has only sold 40% of the units that the Wii has, so it makes sense that they would be easier to find on the shelves. Raw sales numbers probably mean more than availability numbers do. Having said that, I'd be interested to see what the raw sales number for the Wii would have been had there been greater supply.

The part of the article I find interesting is the claim that the gap between Sony and Nintendo is narrowing. I wouldn't say that is accurate since Nintendo is still selling more units than Sony is. The gap is still getting wider in favor of Nintendo, but the rate of gap growth is slowing down. This may be more of a by-product of the way reporters tell stories since budget cuts are generally reported when the rate of increase slows down even though there is still an increase. That has always been an annoyance of mine.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Lies, damned lies, and the above article. There is no buzz for the PS3 here. I was genuinely shocked at how badly Sony screwed the pooch here. As you said, M$ has no impact here. So it's a two-horse race.

About a week ago was the first chance to get a Wii for anyone for about a month and a half. It's the first shipment Nintendo's had here that I saw the Wii lasting in stores for more than a day. They dropped on Sunday. They were all sold out by Wednesday night.

PS#s are on the shelves everywhere. But more troubling for Sony backers is the fact that used PS3s are also available everywhere.

Certainly there's not anything inaccurate in the article. Sales numbers are about as accurate as you can get. If you have an article that has contrary numbers, please put it up. Also, if you could link an article about the used units and the numbers, that would be great.

With that said, I don't necessarily doubt your assertion that the Wii has been in short supply and that may be part of the reason that the sales are slowing down. But who's fault is that? Nintendo talked constantly in the build up to the release of the Wii that there wouldn't be any shortage issues because the technology was low-end and therefore, the components were in plentiful supply. They sold like wildfire on a weekly basis and then the supply just suddenly dried up. As multiple media have reported, it's likely that Nintendo slowed down their supply because of profits and wanted to hold it. If that is the case, we'll likely see a flood of Wii's over the next couple of months and then the ratio of units will spread back out from the current 2 to 1 ratio.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The part of the article I find interesting is the claim that the gap between Sony and Nintendo is narrowing. I wouldn't say that is accurate since Nintendo is still selling more units than Sony is. The gap is still getting wider in favor of Nintendo, but the rate of gap growth is slowing down. This may be more of a by-product of the way reporters tell stories since budget cuts are generally reported when the rate of increase slows down even though there is still an increase. That has always been an annoyance of mine.

I agree that he's extrapolating a bit more on his own than he needs to. With that said, he did cite the total sales numbers and those are pretty reliable numbers. As you said, 1.95M to .81M is the totals. Roughly a 2.3 to 1 ratio overall.

[oykib]

I basically meant that his numbers may have been true. But they didn't support the assertion that he made.

Also, returns are subtracted from overall sales numbers. However, sell-backs are not. Plenty of Japanese consumers picked up the 360 for Blue Dragon when it came out. But you can find at least one used Blue Dragon box set at every game shop now.

The same is true, to a lesser extent, with the PS3. Plenty of people picked it up to see what the hubbub was about. But, here in Japan, most stores will give you 2/3 of the value for a fairly new system. So a lot of people played Gundam Musou, Ridge Racer, VF or something and sold it back a few weeks later when they beat the one or two semi-interesting launch games.

The buzz is still great for the Wii. The PS3 doesn't look like it'll catch it. Even with the ratio getting better, Sony is falling further and further behind in total numbers.

You seem to have a fair grasp of the consumers here, Mizzou. But youre missing how far Sony's fallen here in six short months.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The buzz is still great for the Wii. The PS3 doesn't look like it'll catch it. Even with the ratio getting better, Sony is falling further and further behind in total numbers.

You seem to have a fair grasp of the consumers here, Mizzou. But youre missing how far Sony's fallen here in six short months.

As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, as long as Sony retains FF, MGS, and KH, they'll sell a ton of units when those games come out. I agree that there's not much PS3 buzz in Japan right now. That's because the Japanese-targeted games that sell the system haven't even hit the market yet. As soon as a game like FF comes out, the Japanese gamers will literally run into a wall to buy a console and get that game. You know that as well as I do. Japanese gamers are just a whole different breed of gamer.

With that said, I doubt it will affect the Wii all that much. It will continue to sell. Japan has shown that they will buy 2-3 consoles in a home if there's a reason to buy them. At this point, the PS3 hasn't quite entered that fray. The fact that the PS3 has positive sales news when there wasn't a whole lot to get excited about is definitely a good sign, but they've got more work to do.

[spleen1015]

I basically meant that his numbers may have been true. But they didn't support the assertion that he made.

Also, returns are subtracted from overall sales numbers. However, sell-backs are not. Plenty of Japanese consumers picked up the 360 for Blue Dragon when it came out. But you can find at least one used Blue Dragon box set at every game shop now.

The same is true, to a lesser extent, with the PS3. Plenty of people picked it up to see what the hubbub was about. But, here in Japan, most stores will give you 2/3 of the value for a fairly new system. So a lot of people played Gundam Musou, Ridge Racer, VF or something and sold it back a few weeks later when they beat the one or two semi-interesting launch games.

The buzz is still great for the Wii. The PS3 doesn't look like it'll catch it. Even with the ratio getting better, Sony is falling further and further behind in total numbers.

You seem to have a fair grasp of the consumers here, Mizzou. But youre missing how far Sony's fallen here in six short months.

Save your keystrokes for another argument, dude.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Save your keystrokes for another argument, dude.

Do you disagree? I think he has some pretty valid points and it's obviously nice to hear about things from the actual country, much like Icy and other Euro posters did when the PS3 launched.

[spleen1015]

Do you disagree? I think he has some pretty valid points and it's obviously nice to hear about things from the actual country, much like Icy and other Euro posters did when the PS3 launched.

I don't disagree with anything that he has said. I just think having discussion with you about this subject is a futile effort.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't disagree with anything that he has said. I just think having discussion with you about this subject is a futile effort.

So why bother posting smart remarks when others want to discuss the topic?

[spleen1015]

So why bother posting smart remarks when others want to discuss the topic?

You just want to ruin my fun. :(

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You just want to ruin my fun. :(

There's plenty of fun to be had. I'm sure Phil Harrison will pop his head out of his hole at any moment. He'll see his shadow and then we'll be doomed to 6 more weeks of stupid Sony executive comments. :)

[sterlingice]

The part of the article I find interesting is the claim that the gap between Sony and Nintendo is narrowing. I wouldn't say that is accurate since Nintendo is still selling more units than Sony is. The gap is still getting wider in favor of Nintendo, but the rate of gap growth is slowing down. This may be more of a by-product of the way reporters tell stories since budget cuts are generally reported when the rate of increase slows down even though there is still an increase. That has always been an annoyance of mine.

So, in short, (math alert!) the first order derivative is still positive but the second order is actually negative as the rate of the increase is decreasing?

There, I think I properly applied something from Calculus to the read world! Huzzah!

SI

[dawgfan]

So, in short, (math alert!) the first order derivative is still positive but the second order is actually negative as the rate of the increase is decreasing?

There, I think I properly applied something from Calculus to the read world! Huzzah!

SI
I think the article is poorly worded, but the way I re-read it is that in total sales, the PS3 has narrowed the gap from having 1/4 the total sales of the Wii to now having 1/2 the total sales.

I could be wrong though, given how unclear the wording is in the article.

[BrianD]

So, in short, (math alert!) the first order derivative is still positive but the second order is actually negative as the rate of the increase is decreasing?

There, I think I properly applied something from Calculus to the read world! Huzzah!

SI

Wow, you are a math geek...I like it. :)

[BrianD]

I think the article is poorly worded, but the way I re-read it is that in total sales, the PS3 has narrowed the gap from having 1/4 the total sales of the Wii to now having 1/2 the total sales.

I could be wrong though, given how unclear the wording is in the article.

The article said total sales for the last week were at a ratio of 2 to 1...as in for every PS3 sold, there were 2 Wiis sold. Previously there were 4 Wiis sold for every 1 PS3. There are still more Wiis being sold than PS3s, but that disparity is no longer as large.

What the article doesn't say is if (in raw numbers) the PS3 is selling more units than before, or if the Wii is selling less units than before. More PS3 sales would be good for Sony where less Wii sales (with the same PS3 sales) wouldn't really be any better than where things were before. The reason for the decrease of increase in the gap is really more important than the decrease.

[dawgfan]

The article said total sales for the last week were at a ratio of 2 to 1...as in for every PS3 sold, there were 2 Wiis sold. Previously there were 4 Wiis sold for every 1 PS3. There are still more Wiis being sold than PS3s, but that disparity is no longer as large.

What the article doesn't say is if (in raw numbers) the PS3 is selling more units than before, or if the Wii is selling less units than before. More PS3 sales would be good for Sony where less Wii sales (with the same PS3 sales) wouldn't really be any better than where things were before. The reason for the decrease of increase in the gap is really more important than the decrease.
Nope. Re-read the article. What it says is this:

As reported by Bloomberg, 1.95 million Wii units were sold in the territory between console launch on December 2 and March 25. The PlayStation 3 went on sale in Japan on November 11, and 812,000 units were sold by March 25.

So as of March 25th a total of 1.95 Wii's have been sold in Japan as compared to 812K PS3's, for a ratio of 2.4:1.

Media Create previously announced that during the last week of January, the ratio of Wii to PS3 units sold was four to one.
Now this is where the article's wording is really vague - do they mean that as of the last week of January, the ratio of total sales between the Wii and PS3 was 4:1, or simply the sales during that last week favored the Wii over the PS3 4:1?

Either way, the PS3 is clearly making up ground on the Wii in Japan.

[BrianD]

Nope. Re-read the article. What it says is this:

As reported by Bloomberg, 1.95 million Wii units were sold in the territory between console launch on December 2 and March 25. The PlayStation 3 went on sale in Japan on November 11, and 812,000 units were sold by March 25.

So as of March 25th a total of 1.95 Wii's have been sold in Japan as compared to 812K PS3's, for a ratio of 2.4:1.

Media Create previously announced that during the last week of January, the ratio of Wii to PS3 units sold was four to one.
Now this is where the article's wording is really vague - do they mean that as of the last week of January, the ratio of total sales between the Wii and PS3 was 4:1, or simply the sales during that last week favored the Wii over the PS3 4:1?

Either way, the PS3 is clearly making up ground on the Wii in Japan.

I see what you are saying and I now see where the uncertainty of the article's wording clouds the issue. I read the story as saying "over a recent time-period Wii sales beat PS3 sales 2:1. Further, "sales during the last week of January were 4:1". If your interpretation is right, then the PS3 is gaining ground on the Wii. If mine is right, the PS3 is losing ground slower than they were before. Re-reading the article yet again leaves me unsure which of us is right. I really can read it both ways. What would be nice would be to see a snapshot of total sales at different times, or sales over different periods so we would know what they are really saying.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

New numbers in at www.vgcharts.org.

The gap between PS3 and 360 narrowed by about 260,000 units over the past week. The 360 sales numbers were reduced by 180,000 units while the PS3 number went up by 80,000 units. This happens at times as the site has a pretty wide margin of error as it uses poll information from certain locations in addition to actual numbers when available.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Finally, some firm sales numbers in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war. Two main things to note:

1. Blu-ray is now outselling HD-DVD at a current 4.5:1 clip, with Casino Royale being a major contributor to that ratio.

2. Most of the titles outside the top two or three titles are not moving more than 1,000-1,500 units a week. So the titles are still moving slowly relatively speaking. The price drop of the stand-alone players to sub-$300 prices around the holiday season should improve the installed user base and spur sales of the next-gen DVD's.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/Disc_Sales/Sony_Report_Reveals_First_Look_at_Absolute_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Disc_Sales_Figures/564

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Bill Harris laid into Microsoft and Sony today:

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2007/04/console-post-of-week-pr-like-its-1999.html

Let's get Nintendo out of the way first this week. Steven Davis sent me this:
I was stuck trying to get a Wii for my niece (after taking care of my nephew a couple of weeks ago) and so got to Toys R Us at 9:30 expecting a reasonable line and to be out by 11.

No such luck. They apparently had so many people in line early that they gave out 66 vouchers at 9AM... (alas, didn't tell us late arriving folk, so I waited in line for no reason for 25 minutes).

The line was about 70-80 families long by the time the store opened.

This was a longer line than when I got the last Wii - 2 weeks ago - and on that day they had 91 Wii's for sale.
(Foster City, CA, Toy's R US)
Here's what happened with this new generation of consoles: Nintendo focused on how you play instead of what you see.

They've sold every Wii they've made, Paper Mario will sell milllions of copies and get great reviews, and no Nintendo executives said anything stupid last week.

That was easy.

Microsoft, though, not so much.

First up we have Aaron Greenberg, the product manager for Xbox 360 and Xbox Live, commenting on the crack-fueled decision to charge $170 for a 120GB hard drive:
“What we have done is release a smaller laptop size drive. If you compare what we are offering with a real plug-and-play drive the closest thing would be to take a 120 gig self-powered external PC drive and in that case we are seeing those retail at anywhere from $160 to $200 for comparable laptop sized external hard drives."

Dude, where do you shop--the Apple Store? Here's a big tip for you: try Pricewatch. You'll save a ton of money, because I've looked all over that site and can't seem to find anything remotely close to the prices you're quoting.

Oh, and hey--did you notice that Sony lets you replace the PS3 hard drive with a larger capacity drive with a minimum of fuss? If you're wondering how, I found a link to a guide for you.

Listen, Aaron, how hard is it to understand that you're offering that drive so people can load it up with crap that they buy from you? So when you jam us up on the price, all you're doing is reducing the viability of the downloadable content you're trying to sell us.

Smooth move, McFly.

In all seriousness, trying to tell us that a 120GB hard drive costs almost half as much as a 360 with a 20GB hard drive is just embarassing.

The second bit of dickery I was going to write about involved Microsoft people whining about leaks before the "Elite" unit was announced, but it's boring and I'm going to skip it. Stop crying about people giving you free publicity.

On to Sony. After crowing about their "brilliant" UK launch, it was announced that sales had dropped 82% in the second week.

Oops.

The second week's sales were 30,000 units. In other words, the UK (and the rest of Europe, I'm guessing) doesn't have some kind of crazy-special demand for the PS3. Europe isn't substantially different than the rest of the world in terms of PS3 demand, and worldwide demand is soft.

Japan last week? 16,889 units. That is nothing short of brutal.

Here's the story that no one is talking about, but it's going to be big as soon as people start paying attention. I've gotten a ton of e-mails in the last week saying that the UK is drowning in PS3 inventory. So is the U.S. So is Japan.

Do you know why Sony could not only make all the consoles needed for the European launch, but also was able to restock immediately?

Three words: excess manufacturing capacity.

It's very simple: Sony is building far more PS3's than we want. "What we want" is so much below what they expected that they've flooded every inventory channel they have in only three months. Unless sales improve dramatically, and soon, they're going to be forced to both shutter some of the existing capacity and greatly scale back their plans to bring additional capacity on line.

[spleen1015]

I bet the dude that made all of the decisions regarding the PS3 isn't sleeping very well these days.