POL: February Console sales numbers

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I bet the dude that made all of the decisions regarding the PS3 isn't sleeping very well these days.

Nintendo's the only smart one here. The PS3 and 360 may be nice consoles, but Nintendo is the one having the last laugh as they make monsterous profits.

I'm hopeful that this will be the last generation of consoles that take the mind-numbing approach of selling the consoles in the first 6 months to a year at a loss in the hopes of making up the difference later in software sales. Microsoft and Sony both took losses on their consoles. It's an insane business model. Hopefully they will wait to make the next console until the components are reasonably priced. With the losses that MS and Sony are taking on the hardware, it's obvious that they jumped into the next-gen market too soon.

[Eaglesfan27]

Nintendo's the only smart one here. The PS3 and 360 may be nice consoles, but Nintendo is the one having the last laugh as they make monsterous profits.

I'm hopeful that this will be the last generation of consoles that take the mind-numbing approach of selling the consoles in the first 6 months to a year at a loss in the hopes of making up the difference later in software sales. Microsoft and Sony both took losses on their consoles. It's an insane business model. Hopefully they will wait to make the next console until the components are reasonably priced. With the losses that MS and Sony are taking on the hardware, it's obvious that they jumped into the next-gen market too soon.


MS has been making money on each 360 sold for at least the last several months (maybe 6-8?)

[BrianD]

Listen, Aaron, how hard is it to understand that you're offering that drive so people can load it up with crap that they buy from you? So when you jam us up on the price, all you're doing is reducing the viability of the downloadable content you're trying to sell us.

Smooth move, McFly.

I like this quote. It seems to sum up customer feelings and and bad Microsoft business decisions quite well.

Nintendo's the only smart one here. The PS3 and 360 may be nice consoles, but Nintendo is the one having the last laugh as they make monsterous profits.

I'm hopeful that this will be the last generation of consoles that take the mind-numbing approach of selling the consoles in the first 6 months to a year at a loss in the hopes of making up the difference later in software sales. Microsoft and Sony both took losses on their consoles. It's an insane business model. Hopefully they will wait to make the next console until the components are reasonably priced. With the losses that MS and Sony are taking on the hardware, it's obvious that they jumped into the next-gen market too soon.

I think the better lesson to learn is that horsepower doesn't equal fun. Games have been getting prettier and more life-like for a long time, but they haven't necessarily been getting more fun. How often have people been complaining about games like Madden which have more realistic player modeling yet still having game-killing bugs or AI flaws.

We seem to be seeing pretty clearly that people want fun first and photo-realism second. If 360/PS3 games had the same level of Nintendo fun with those graphics, it would be a much tougher choice.

[BrianD]

MS has been making money on each 360 sold for at least the last several months (maybe 6-8?)

Which is a good thing because I understand they are quite easily mod-able which will hurt software sales some amount.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

MS has been making money on each 360 sold for at least the last several months (maybe 6-8?)

Yes, you're correct. You'll note that I said in the first 6-12 months following release the companies lose money. The 360 is outside of that timeframe at this point.

However, I believe that only one of the two types of 360 (Core and Premium) is turning a profit at this point. I'll see if I can track down the numbers.

The redesign that is expected in the fall will make all of the 360 consoles profitable.

[DanGarion]

It wasn't me who was doing it, but those you accused of personal attacks.

On the MS exec, I agree with those who have already posted that compared to the prices of similar sized hard drives in other retail outlets (which is what he was comparing it to) his comments are not out of line at all. I mean, not like MS's hard drive is going to find its way into places like Newegg.
Isn't Newegg owned by Fry's? The same B and M place many people in Southern California love to hate to go to but still do, to buy their stuff? (and yes I did that purposely)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16874100001 ???

[DanGarion]

Bill Harris laid into Microsoft and Sony today:

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2007/04/console-post-of-week-pr-like-its-1999.html
that guy didn't look to hard on Pricewatch. Heck I found a 120GB 2.5 external drive for 210.00 on Pricewatch that is listed on Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822222001&ATT=22-222-001&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch

[stevew]

Isn't Newegg owned by Fry's? The same B and M place many people in Southern California love to hate to go to but still do, to buy their stuff? (and yes I did that purposely)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16874100001 ???

Outpost is owned by Fry's.

[DanGarion]

Outpost is owned by Fry's.

Yeah, but they still sell Xbox and accessories.... :)

[Fidatelo]

I'm hopeful that this will be the last generation of consoles that take the mind-numbing approach of selling the consoles in the first 6 months to a year at a loss in the hopes of making up the difference later in software sales.

:confused:

Why is this bad? As a consumer, you are getting more than what you paid for. When is that ever bad?

I love my Wii, but if Nintendo had decided to throw a 100GB hard drive in the thing and left the price the same, I wouldn't have complained.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

:confused:

Why is this bad? As a consumer, you are getting more than what you paid for. When is that ever bad?

I love my Wii, but if Nintendo had decided to throw a 100GB hard drive in the thing and left the price the same, I wouldn't have complained.

Because it costs the primary company a lot of money initially that could be used for other things that make the system more valuable. The 360 and PS3 both had severe game issues at release. It sure would have been nice to have each of those systems come out with 2-3 AAA first-party titles after launch to make your purchase more worthwhile. Those development dollars would have been available if they weren't taking such a hit at launch.

I certainly agree that I'm never going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but there are problems to the consumer that are caused by selling systems at a loss early in the console's life.

[cartman]

It's a bit early to put HD-DVD out to pasture, if the numbers in this article from Ars Technica are correct:

hxxp://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070409-hd-dvd-takes-early-lead-in-european-market.html

Some of the figures that jumped out to me were:


94% of all Blu-Ray players sold are inside of PS3s
An HD DVD replication line costs about €800,000 and you can make 40,000 discs a day on it. A Blu-Ray replication line costs €1.7m or €1.8m and you can make 10,000 to 15,000 discs a day.


and finally:

A recent report released by Sony showed that among the top ten movie titles for both HD DVD and Blu-ray sales for the week ending on March 18, 2007, three spots were held by movies that sold fewer than 1,000 units each. In fact, only one movie on the entire top ten list had five-figure sales digits at all, with the remaining nine titles adding up to a combined sales total of 12,430 units


Those figures from Sony seem to back up my theory that although there are a lot of Blu-Ray players out there thanks to the PS3, people aren't buying movies for them, and are sticking with DVDs for the time being. It seems that the people buying HD movies are mainly ones who bought dedicated Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players, because they have the A/V setup to take advantage of all of the next gen features. If Sony has put ~1,000,000 Blu-Rays out there in PS3s, then it appears that a small fraction of PS3 owners are buying movies for their consoles.

[Eaglesfan27]

Interesting new story up on Gamespot. I don't understand the logic of this move. It seems that it only serves to magnify the price difference between the PS3 and the 360:


US Web sites pull PS3 20GB model

The basic edition of the next-gen console is removed from Sony's US Web site, fuelling speculation that its days are numbered.


By Emma Boyes (http://www.gamespot.com/users/Emma_UK/), GameSpot UK (http://uk.gamespot.com/) Posted Apr 11, 2007 4:17 am PT


The official online Sony store in the US, Sony Style, has taken down the "basic" model of the PlayStation 3 from its Web site as a number of retailers stop selling the cheaper model of the console in the States.
Today companies including Amazon.com, Best Buy, GameStop, EB Games, and Circuit City were no longer listing the 20GB model on their Web sites.
The 20GB model of the console has a number of differences from the 60GB version aside from the size of the internal hard drive and lower price, including the lack of Wi-Fi connectivity, the lack of multiple flash memory card readers, and the chrome trim.

The move also throws doubt over the launch of the PlayStation 3's 20GB model in Europe, Australia, and other territories, where currently only the 60GB version is available. The budget version was originally expected to arrive sometime in the "summer," although no hard date was ever set.

A Sony spokesperson told GameSpot, "We'll continue to monitor demand for the 20GB model, from a consumer and retailer perspective...which will be factored into any future Euro launch plans."

[SackAttack]

I believe Sony also confirmed they're no longer producing the 20 GB model for sale in North America.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I believe Sony also confirmed they're no longer producing the 20 GB model for sale in North America.

It's a good move. First, they were losing more money per console on the 20 GB than the 60 GB. Second, they can streamline the production of the system into one line, reducing costs. Third, most everyone sees the 360 core system and the 20 GB system exactly for what they are......weak versions of the real system. The fact that they were selling 10 of the 60 GB version for every one of the 20 GB version shows the consumers were well aware that the 20 GB system was not a good alternative at only 100 dollars less.

I'm hoping that this will signal an end to the multi-tiered console strategy as well in future consoles. The 20 GB system didn't sell well and the 360 Core system has not performed well when compared to its big brother either. It was just a play so they could say they were offering a cheaper version for $100 less on both consoles when everyone knew that if you were going to drop your hard earned money on a console, you should pay the extra $100 and get the 360 premium or the 60 GB PS3.

[sabotai]

I'm hoping that this will signal an end to the multi-tiered console strategy as well in future consoles.

Finally, we agree on something. ;)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Finally, we agree on something. ;)

Never fear. The March NPD numbers should be out anytime now and we can start disagreeing all over again in the 'March Console Sales Numbers' thread that we so desparately look forward to. :)

[Arles]

It's a good move. First, they were losing more money per console on the 20 GB than the 60 GB. Second, they can streamline the production of the system into one line, reducing costs. Third, most everyone sees the 360 core system and the 20 GB system exactly for what they are......weak versions of the real system. The fact that they were selling 10 of the 60 GB version for every one of the 20 GB version shows the consumers were well aware that the 20 GB system was not a good alternative at only 100 dollars less.
For me, the 20 GB version was perfect. I had an extra wireless adapter from an old console and I have the premium XBox360 so the 20GB was plenty of space. I already have numerous options for memory card reading so the extra $100 would have been basically thrown away. Once Sony went back and added HDMI to the 20GB, it was a no-brainer for me.

Of course, I am not the normal case (since I already owned the 360), but I would think a lot of people would have old wireless adapters from their PS2 and I don't see what you would need more than 20GB for with the PS3 right now. I've had mine for months and I doubt if I am using more than 5GB as it is.

[Icy]

For me, the 20 GB version was perfect. I had an extra wireless adapter from an old console and I have the premium XBox360 so the 20GB was plenty of space. I already have numerous options for memory card reading so the extra $100 would have been basically thrown away. Once Sony went back and added HDMI to the 20GB, it was a no-brainer for me.

Of course, I am not the normal case (since I already owned the 360), but I would think a lot of people would have old wireless adapters from their PS2 and I don't see what you would need more than 20GB for with the PS3 right now. I've had mine for months and I doubt if I am using more than 5GB as it is.

I must agree with you, i would have bought the 20gb too if available in Spain. I don't care about the wireless as i play in the same room where i have the computer and network router so i can use cable, and in fact i prefer a 100mbps cable connection than a wireless that usually has micro connection cuts that are killers for fluid online playing.

About the HD space, i had 20gb too in the Xbox and it was more than enough, specially knowing that the movies download service is not available in Europe so the only use for the HD is for save games and to download a demo that I delete as soon as i decide to buy or not the game. The big HD only has a good use if you download media content, and for that, i have my PC.

Again the main problem i see in my case are the developers trying to make an All-in-one media center, making me to pay extra for it, when i just want a console to play games, nothing else needed.

[Arles]

And let's be honest. You can make the argument that the XBox 360 *may* be used as an all-in-one with their live service and dashboard. I can't see anyone using the PS3 in that manner for atleast another year or two given the current state of their online system. So, spending an extra $100 now for something (extra HD space) that won't even possibly be useful for a couple years seems like wasted money. And who knows, by then there may be some external option for half the price that has double the space.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm hoping that this will signal an end to the multi-tiered console strategy as well in future consoles.


Doesn't look that way. This is just a rumor at this point, but probably has some basis in fact. I think it is a good move for Sony IF they keep the current price. If they raise the price even higher, it is another mistake by Sony:



Sony readying 80GB PS3? (http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=25566741)

Source: British game industry magazine MCV (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/26574/80GB-PS3-on-the-way), citing a report on the Bloomberg news service (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=apxJ8MoSy6No&refer=japan). http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2007/news/consoles/ps3_vert.jpg

What we heard: Last week, Sony unceremoniously discontinued the 20GB PlayStation 3 in North America (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6168876.html). Taken at its word, the move was a sensible consolidation, as the company felt that, "based on retailer and consumer feedback, we have decided to focus our current efforts on the more popular 60GB model."

Today, though, the Internet was alight with word that Sony might be pondering a new model of its controversial next-generation console. Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. spokesman Satoshi Fukuoka reportedly told Bloomberg that the electronics giant is considering a PS3 with a higher-capacity hard drive than the 60GB model. No specific size was mentioned, but that did not stop MCV from speculating the new edition would have a 80GB HDD--40GB less than the forthcoming Xbox 360 Elite (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6168182.html), which sports a 120GB HDD.

The official story: Unsurprisingly, Sony reps were vague about any to-be-announced PS3 product. "We are constantly looking at new technologies, services and configurations to meet the evolving needs of our PlayStation gamers," said Sony Computer Entertainment America PR chief Dave Karraker. "At this time, we have no announcement regarding any changes in our PS3 product offering in North America."

Bogus or not bogus?: Not bogus that somewhere deep in the bowels of Sony's R&D department, a new, higher-capacity PS3 SKU is being debated. Bogus that any size--including 80GB--has been officially announced.

[albionmoonlight]

As someone who has yet to buy a next-gen console (and who, admittedly, is probably 70-30 against doing it until a couple of price drops), I will say that these constant improvements and rumored improvments are convincing me to say on the sideline.

Most of the marquee games have yet to come out, and the hardware itself keeps changing. Not a recipe for making me want to jump into the pool.

Again, though, I am probably not the target audience because I was planning to wait for things to settle down and drop prices anyway.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Doesn't look that way. This is just a rumor at this point, but probably has some basis in fact. I think it is a good move for Sony IF they keep the current price. If they raise the price even higher, it is another mistake by Sony.

I agree totally. I don't mind more than one console level if they use it as an upgrade and adjust the price point. If they introduce this version at $599 and drop the 60 GB to $499 or $549, it's a great move. Otherwise, it's not good as you said.

BTW.....I saw that the new sales numbers for consoles come out on Thursday, so we should have a March thread by then.

[albionmoonlight]

You know what makes this thread so awesome?

(1) Both sides are enjoying the discussion.
(1A) No one is taking themselves too seriously.

(2) Both sides make good arguments. I find myself convinced by a post, then totally agreeing with the refutation, then totally agreeing with the response to the refutation.

(3) Neither side is willing to concede.
(3A) No one is trying to blow anyone out of the way with their arguments, but no one is willing to budge. It's like watching two mild mannered elephants pushing against each other. For a month.

(4) It is educational. I have learned more about console marketing than I ever thought that I would know.

(5) People care somewhat about their position (like, the people who are saying that Sony screwed the pooch on some level want Sony to have screwed the pooch. But, they won't live or die based on whether it happens or not).

(6) No one is going to lose any sleep over this, however it turns out.

(7) It won't die.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You know what makes this thread so awesome?

(1) Both sides are enjoying the discussion.
(1A) No one is taking themselves too seriously.

(2) Both sides make good arguments. I find myself convinced by a post, then totally agreeing with the refutation, then totally agreeing with the response to the refutation.

(3) Neither side is willing to concede.
(3A) No one is trying to blow anyone out of the way with their arguments, but no one is willing to budge. It's like watching to mild mannered elephants pushing against each other. For a month.

(4) It is educational. I have learned more about console marketing than I ever thought that I would know.

(5) People care somewhat about their position (like, the people who are saying that Sony screwed the pooch on some level want Sony to have screwed the pooch. But, they won't live or die based on whether it happens or not).

(6) No one is going to lose any sleep over this, however it turns out.

(7) It won't die.

I totally agree with you. It reminds me a lot of a heated discussion in college with 1/3 debate, 1/3 marketing, and 1/3 business mixed in. The point/counterpoint has been really good. I'm hoping this thread will die later this week......to be replaced by a 'March Console Sales Numbers'. The interesting part will be that we've had a month of discussion and will be able to look at the new numbers and see how things have shifted over the past month when compared to this discussion.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here's a readers' poll for the Japanese magazine Famitsu detailing game interest for upcoming games. Not too many surprises here, though the number of portable games listed is pretty telling just how much Japanese people like their portable machines. Also, I was surprised how far down Devil May Cry was on the list. I'm guessing Sony let it go for that reason, but that's just a guess.........

1. Final Fantasy XIII -- PS3

2. Dragon Quest IX -- DS

3. Biohazard 5 -- PS3/360

4. Metal Gear Solid 4 -- PS3

5. Persona 3 -- PS2

6. Gyakuten Saiban 4 -- DS

7. Monster Hunter 3 -- PS3

8. Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass --DS

9. Super Robot Taisen: Original Generations -- PS2

10. Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors -- Wii

11. Minna no Golf 5 -- PS3

12. Odin Sphere -- PS2

13. Super Smash Bros. Brawl -- Wii

14. Lost Odyssey -- 360

15. Doubutsu no Mori -- Wii

16. Final Fantasy XII Revenant Wings -- DS

17. Devil May Cry 4 -- PS3/360

18. Shining Wind -- PS2

19. Final Fantasy Tactics: The Lion War -- PSP

20. Final Fantasy Versus XIII -- PS3

[stevew]

With the lack of games coming out for Wii in the interim, I think they will undoubtedly lose quite a bit of their market share. I don't know what exactly they could do for games, but they need some more killer apps.

[dawgfan]

With the lack of games coming out for Wii in the interim, I think they will undoubtedly lose quite a bit of their market share. I don't know what exactly they could do for games, but they need some more killer apps.
I think Nintendo is expecting Super Paper Mario to be the next killer app for the Wii.

[stevew]

I think Nintendo is expecting Super Paper Mario to be the next killer app for the Wii.

Yes, but now that I have that game, the next big title is like MONTHS away. Outside of Prince of Persia, Madden is probably the next game I will consider getting.

[SackAttack]

Prince of Persia is also a Wii-make of Two Thrones. It'll draw attention, sure, but it won't hold it as well as a brand-new PoP might.

[Fidatelo]

Yes, but now that I have that game, the next big title is like MONTHS away. Outside of Prince of Persia, Madden is probably the next game I will consider getting.

Mario Party 8 comes out in May, that's the next big title, and I see nothing wrong with that.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Mario Party 8 comes out in May, that's the next big title, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Hence the long-held discussion concerning Nintendo and their consoles. Nothing worth playing except a first-party title here and there. There is no third party support at all for this console right now. Also, the third-party games that have come out have not done well at all in comparison to first-party title sales numbers (Nintendo titles are outselling third-party titles at a 10 to 1 clip or even larger in some cases). You would think that Nintendo would notice this pattern at some point, yet it keeps happening to them. Most of the major podcasts have had multiple shows complaining about the lack of software support. There's just nothing to play outside of a Nintendo-based title here and there.

I will say that the third-party titles haven't been all that good. Thankfully, that should change now that EA has promised to bring 20 new titles to the Wii..............

[wade moore]

Hence the long-held discussion concerning Nintendo and their consoles. Nothing worth playing except a first-party title here and there. There is no third party support at all for this console right now. Also, the third-party games that have come out have not done well at all in comparison to first-party title sales numbers (Nintendo titles are outselling third-party titles at a 10 to 1 clip or even larger in some cases). You would think that Nintendo would notice this pattern at some point, yet it keeps happening to them. Most of the major podcasts have had multiple shows complaining about the lack of software support. There's just nothing to play outside of a Nintendo-based title here and there.

I will say that the third-party titles haven't been all that good. Thankfully, that should change now that EA has promised to bring 20 new titles to the Wii..............

I imagine EA won't be the only one. This is happening, I'm guessing, because no one expect much out of the Wii. The explosion of the Wii has surprised software developers as much as it has us. Let's face it - the GameCube was a failure (as you stated) for 3rd party software. It just lacked in so many different ways compared to the other consoles.

So, I expect that other companies are going to jump on this as quickly as they can. They're not going to ignore the fact of how the Wii's are flying off fo the shelf - but they're behind the curve. They're going to need to use the benefits the Wii has, so they can't just port games over.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

They're going to need to use the benefits the Wii has, so they can't just port games over.

That's been the problem thus far. One bad port after another. I suppose that's why I don't hold out hope that more than 10% of EA's games will be any good. I would think that a relatively unknown developer needs to jump at this opportunity. All of the major developers are doing little more than ports for this system. The market is wide open for a new title that can grab that market share, much like Guitar Hero did on the PS2 a couple of years ago.

[wade moore]

That's been the problem thus far. One bad port after another. I suppose that's why I don't hold out hope that more than 10% of EA's games will be any good. I would think that a relatively unknown developer needs to jump at this opportunity. All of the major developers are doing little more than ports for this system. The market is wide open for a new title that can grab that market share, much like Guitar Hero did on the PS2 a couple of years ago.

Totally agreed. Outside of the Box thinking where you design a game specifically for the controller could really take off a-la Guitar Hero.

[Atocep]

Hence the long-held discussion concerning Nintendo and their consoles. Nothing worth playing except a first-party title here and there. There is no third party support at all for this console right now. Also, the third-party games that have come out have not done well at all in comparison to first-party title sales numbers (Nintendo titles are outselling third-party titles at a 10 to 1 clip or even larger in some cases). You would think that Nintendo would notice this pattern at some point, yet it keeps happening to them. Most of the major podcasts have had multiple shows complaining about the lack of software support. There's just nothing to play outside of a Nintendo-based title here and there.

I will say that the third-party titles haven't been all that good. Thankfully, that should change now that EA has promised to bring 20 new titles to the Wii..............

I don't think its going to be an issue in the long run. No one really took the Wii seriously until they saw its sales numbers, so its going to take a while for those 3rd party developers that had written the console off to get some games out there. Fortunately for Nintendo, most people that buy a Nintendo system buy it for the 1st party games anyways, so that should buy them enough time to get more games out there.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

March console sales numbers come out today.