July console sales numbers......

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I knew it would be slower at that time, but I never imagined it would be that drastic of a difference.

There's a reason the media surrounding this industry gets excited for the summer expos. It indicates that games will actually start showing up to review. Late spring/early summer is always dead. I'll see if I can track down similar PS2/360 numbers. They're the same way.

[Bee]

I'm not surprised they've doubled after seeing what they were in the first quarter. :D

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm not surprised they've doubled after seeing what they were in the first quarter. :D

Agreed. Generally no place to go but up from what they were pulling for a few months.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm not arguing that. However, there is nothing that magically makes Sony's numbers any more accurate than VG's, yet you were implying there was.

That 4.28M units has to be accurate. The last thing they need is an accounting scandal. Thankfully, no one in the entertainment division is compiling those numbers. Hence, less of a chance to do something stupid. :)

[wade moore]

Sony said they were having supply problems until a couple of months ago. ;)
I know you're playing devil's advocate (or whatever) a bit here, but...

There's a HUGE difference between what Sony is doing and what MS did... Sony has PS3's all over the place, you couldn't find a 360 at this time in their lifecycle...

Anyway... You made the closing point, no matter how they spin it they have some major catchup to do.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I know you're playing devil's advocate (or whatever) a bit here, but...

There's a HUGE difference between what Sony is doing and what MS did... Sony has PS3's all over the place, you couldn't find a 360 at this time in their lifecycle...

Anyway... You made the closing point, no matter how they spin it they have some major catchup to do.

*****sarcasm meter malfunction*****

Did the wink not give it away? I'll go with the [end sarcasm] tag next time. Sony only had a supply problem in the eyes of their idiotic PR department.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow. Any one notice anything interesting here?

http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/26-07-2007-6094.html

Sony has today announced its Fiscal year 2007 Q1 earnings, including details of sales to date and sales projections for its three video game platforms.

At the end of Q1, worldwide sales of the PlayStation 3 stand at approximately 4.48 million (prior to Q1 2007 Sony only quoted units shipped not sold). 3.57 million came in the final half of the previous year, with a disappointing 0.71 million recorded in the first quarter 2007. Despite the console's poor sales in Q1, Sony has announced that it expects to sell a further 10.29 million units in the following three quarters, ending March 2008.

First, slight adjustment to 4.48M in sales.

Also, expects to sell 10M units in the next 3 quarters? Obviously, there's no way they'll reach that number if the situation remains status quo. There's got to be some big price cuts/new SKU's in the works. My guess would be that we see the $399 price point that was mentioned yesterday by the holiday season. They're not going to sell 10M units in 9 months at $499.

[Synovia]

Wow. Any one notice anything interesting here?

http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/26-07-2007-6094.html



Expects to sell 10M units in the next 3 quarters? Obviously, there's no way they'll reach that number if the situation remains status quo. There's got to be some big price cuts/new SKU's in the works. My guess would be that we see the $399 price point that was mentioned yesterday by the holiday season. They're not going to sell 10M units in 9 months at $499.

They wont at $399 either. Its gotta come down into the $249 range to put up those numbers. <br><br>

If MS drops the 360's price $50 or so, is there any question that Nintendo wont drop the Wii just as much?

[spleen1015]

Even if they slash the prices in half, they don't have the games to sell 10M units in the next 9 months.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Even if they slash the prices in half, they don't have the games to sell 10M units in the next 9 months.

Totally disagree with that, but we'll let time sort that out. If they slashed the price to $299, these systems would be pouring off the shelves, but they won't be cutting it to $299 anytime soon.

[Synovia]

Totally disagree with that, but we'll let time sort that out. If they slashed the price to $299, these systems would be pouring off the shelves, but they won't be cutting it to $299 anytime soon.
If they cut prices to $299 6 months ago, I'd agree. <br><br>Right now, I dont. Too many of those 360/Wii sales are people who are only going to buy one system.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

They wont at $399 either. Its gotta come down into the $249 range to put up those numbers. <br><br>

If MS drops the 360's price $50 or so, is there any question that Nintendo wont drop the Wii just as much?

Sony sold roughly 500K units a month at $599. Given their forcast, they have to average 1.1M units a month sold over the next 9 months. Sales have doubled since the drop to $499. If it dropped to $399, they would have no problem meeting that goal.

Nintendo isn't going to drop the price. The 360 is honestly not a threat to them even at the same price level. They're still going to sell quite a few units. Microsoft should be more concerned about dropping the Elite price to $399 as quickly as possible. That's much more important than trying to compete with the Wii on an even price level. Wii wins that battle every time.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If they cut prices to $299 6 months ago, I'd agree. <br><br>Right now, I dont. Too many of those 360/Wii sales are people who are only going to buy one system.

It's somewhat of a silly 'what if' anyway. There's no chance of it happening anytime soon.

[twothree]

If MS drops the 360's price $50 or so, is there any question that Nintendo wont drop the Wii just as much?

Nintendo is still having supply problem. Why would they drop the price? ;)

Until the Wii is physically available on the shelf at most places (or available online outside of a bundle deal), I don't see Nintendo dropping the price. If the 360 drops in price and it causes the Wii to build up some inventory in the supply channel, maybe Nintendo drops the price after a few more first party games come out to make up for any lost profit from the decrease in the price of the Wii.

[Travis]

Even if they slash the prices in half, they don't have the games to sell 10M units in the next 9 months.

Yeah, cause there are 0 exclusives coming out anytime soon on the system that may somewhat help their case.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't where they should be now, but saying they have no games coming out is a potentially huge understatement (as I also understand that these games could flop, but I sincerely hope at least a few of them are as good as they have the potential to be).

[Eaglesfan27]

Also, expects to sell 10M units in the next 3 quarters? Obviously, there's no way they'll reach that number if the situation remains status quo. There's got to be some big price cuts/new SKU's in the works. My guess would be that we see the $399 price point that was mentioned yesterday by the holiday season. They're not going to sell 10M units in 9 months at $499.

No way do they meet that projection of 10M sold in the next 9 months. They are deluding themselves if they think that will happen - it won't happen even if they cut the price to 399. There aren't enough Americans who are willing to pay that much. The only way I could see that even coming close to happening is if they release a cheap bare bones version with no Blu-Ray.

As far as your reply to my previous post: After seeing the idiots in the PR department, I wouldn't put it past Sony's accounting department to make some mistakes in the sales numbers. There is zero evidence they are any more valid than Vg's or any one elses. Statistics lie all of the time, and I'd expect the sales numbers are somewhere in between the two.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yeah, cause there are 0 exclusives coming out anytime soon on the system that may somewhat help their case.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't where they should be now, but saying they have no games coming out is a potentially huge understatement (as I also understand that these games could flop, but I sincerely hope at least a few of them are as good as they have the potential to be).

3 of those games are coming out in August. Hot Shots Golf 5 is out now in Japan and reportedly selling well. They bundled the game with a PS3 in Japan, so it will be interesting to see how much the console sales numbers spike over there in regards to that bundle. Hot Shots Golf comes out in EU and NA the first week of October.

Lair is now gold and has a release date of August 14th. They've been showing this game off quite a bit at the trade shows and feedback has been pretty positive. They need this franchise to do well.

Warhawk has a release date of August 28th. Another title with a lot of hoopla. The beta online experience was a bit rough, but that's obviously why they call it a beta. Assuming they get the needed servers up and running, this could be a good game for Sony. In addition, this game should help Sony's bottom line in the form of increased Bluetooth headsets for online play. Accessories are a big money maker in regards to profit margin. Current plans are that you can download the game for $39.99 or buy it off the shelf with a Bluetooth headset for $59.99.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

No way do they meet that projection of 10M sold in the next 9 months. They are deluding themselves if they think that will happen - it won't happen even if they cut the price to 399. There aren't enough Americans who are willing to pay that much. The only way I could see that even coming close to happening is if they release a cheap bare bones version with no Blu-Ray.

Just to clarify, that's 10M units worldwide, not in America. They'll likely expect to sell about 3.5-4M of those 10M in North America. The rest will be sold in the EU or Japan.

Given this big sales estimate, I also wouldn't be surprised if this is an indicator that they expect MGS4 to be released before the end of this fiscal year.

[Eaglesfan27]

Just to clarify, that's 10M units worldwide, not in America. They'll likely expect to sell about 3.5-4M of those 10M in North America. The rest will be sold in the EU or Japan.

Given this big sales estimate, I also wouldn't be surprised if this is an indicator that they expect MGS4 to be released before the end of this fiscal year.

My comments stand. I don't think they have a snowball's chance of selling 10 million worldwide in the next 9 months, particularly with how expensive the units are in some areas such as Australia and Europe.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

My comments stand. I don't think they have a snowball's chance of selling 10 million worldwide in the next 9 months, particularly with how expensive the units are in some areas such as Australia and Europe.

Some big changes are going to have to occur in pricing, that's for sure. They've got to get it down to $399 if they expect to double sales over what they've done so far to meet that goal.

Additionally, a roughly 20% price cut in the EU is expected later this month at the Leipzig Game Show.

[Big Fo]

When Sony/Microsoft say x number of consoles sold they mean sold to retailers, not people actually buying the things. Same thing when Mizzou B-ball fan says "300,000 preorders" for Minna no golf 5, that's to the stores, not customer preorders.


Some obsessed sales followers on NeoGAF (a large gaming forum) have these worldwide figures through the June NPD period:

360

Australia - 182,000
Europe - 3,000,000
Japan - 388,597
Canada - 403,500
US - 5,780,000

TOTAL - 9,753,390
_____

Wii

Australia - 107,000
Europe - 2,200,000
Japan - 3,059,628
Canada - 313,956
US - 3,190,000

TOTAL - 8,870,584
______

PS3

Australia - 55,000
Europe - 1,100,000
Japan - 976,673
Canada - 84,584
US - 1,450,000

TOTAL - 3,666,257

Wii is likely to take the worldwide lead sometime in mid-August if things remain as they are currently.

In other news, have you guys heard the rumor about a bare-bones PS3 with a 40 GB HDD, no wireless, no backwards compatibility for $399? What's so hard about releasing one SKU this generation?

[sabotai]

4th and Inches

And the 4th and Inches Team Construction Disk! I remember creating every NFL team, a ton of generic teams, and playing out tournements with them. I have a notebook full of teams and tournement brackets.

That and Mail Order Monsters were probably the two C64 games I spent the most time on. Occasionally I'll fire up my C64 emulator to play some Mail Order Monsters. (Hmm....maybe this calls for a dynasty? I'll have to see if I can get the emulator working again.)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

When Mizzou B-ball fan says "300,000 preorders" for Minna no golf 5, that's to the stores, not customer preorders.

Roughly 175,000 copies were sold on the first day. Most of that initial stock is going to sell very quickly. Really surprising given that the installed base is just over 1M units in Japan. It will be interesting to see how many of the new bundles were sold.

[Fidatelo]

What's so hard about releasing one SKU this generation?

Nintendo didn't seem to have any problems on that front.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Two game announcements likely coming this week.......

"8 Days" - Could be coming out as soon as this holiday season for the PS3.

"Max Payne 3" - being developed for PC, PS3 and 360.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This could be one of the main drivers behind Sony's lofty sales projections for the rest of this fiscal year. These changes could allow for a price cut to $399 or lower. (Note: The title of this article is misleading, as the actual story is that Sony expects to break even on a per-console sales basis, not for the fiscal year.)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6573&Itemid=59

Sony Aims for PS3 Break-Even This Year

By Kris Graft

Sony currently incurs an estimated $200 loss on every PlayStation 3 sold, but an exec from the firm said today that loss could be eliminated this fiscal year.

During a conference call Sony executive VP Nobuyuki Oneda said the firm may be able to break even on PS3 hardware this fiscal year, which ends in March 2008.

He said that the main cost-downs would have to occur in the Cell processor, RSX graphics chip and Blu-ray optical components.

“The removal of the negative margin will be when all of these factors have come out. Maybe, marginally, we could achieve this during this year,” Oneda told a Citigroup Securities analyst during a Q&A session. Oneda still couldn’t specify exactly when this break-even point may happen.

“For the negative margin to go away, the big trigger would be the cost-down in the Cell and RSX semiconductors. They are the key, and also optical pick-up is another factor, significantly,” he said.

Oneda confirmed that Sony is working on transitioning the PS3’s chips from 90nm to 65nm, which would reduce costs significantly. He said the Cell would be the first PS3 chip to make the migration, followed by the RSX chip.

Game console makers typically sell hardware at a loss, and make up for this through software sales. Nintendo, however, has made it a point to sell its hardware at a profit.

[Eaglesfan27]

If you read between the lines there, it sounds like that breakeven point will be late in the fiscal year and will barely be reached. That article doesn't make me optimistic of a price drop.

[gstelmack]

If you read between the lines there, it sounds like that breakeven point will be late in the fiscal year and will barely be reached. That article doesn't make me optimistic of a price drop.

Yup, because not only would they have to cut $200 from the cost of components, but they'd also have to cut whatever the price drop is. If they are focusing on break even, that makes a permanent $100 price drop much less likely.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If you read between the lines there, it sounds like that breakeven point will be late in the fiscal year and will barely be reached. That article doesn't make me optimistic of a price drop.

I think a lot of it depends on how long the spike in sales from the current price drop lasts. If they can get a sustained spike into September, they may hold off on a price drop a bit longer. If this current spike doesn't last through mid-August, I'd think that a further price drop is likely before the holidays.

Honestly, the price situation doesn't have much to do with profit at this point. Sony has to price it at a price that sells because there's no magic price point right now with the PS3 that allows them to build the console base AND make money. They have to consider the losses this fiscal year as an investment to avoid major problems down the line. A larger installed base is much more important than avoiding short-term losses. With Sony as a whole reporting major profit increases last quarter, they have the bankroll to sustain a price cut at this point.

[gstelmack]

But how do you reconcile "we expect to break even" with "I think this means a price cut is coming!"? That article is about getting costs down to where they are no longer losing $200 apiece, not getting costs down so they can cut the price again.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think a lot of it depends on how long the spike in sales from the current price drop lasts. If they can get a sustained spike into September, they may hold off on a price drop a bit longer. If this current spike doesn't last through mid-August, I'd think that a further price drop is likely before the holidays.

Honestly, the price situation doesn't have much to do with profit at this point. Sony has to price it at a price that sells because there's no magic price point right now with the PS3 that allows them to build the console base AND make money. They have to consider the losses this fiscal year as an investment to avoid major problems down the line. A larger installed base is much more important than avoiding short-term losses. With Sony as a whole reporting major profit increases last quarter, they have the bankroll to sustain a price cut at this point.


It's illogical to think that the price situation doesn't have to do with profit. If the unit costs over 700 dollars to make right now (which is the indication from multiple sources) and they are just worried about cutting costs enought to "maybe" break even, then a price drop seems like the last thing they are thinking about. Your other points in your 2nd paragraph are correct, but the article you linked seems like the PS3 hitting a break even point is more of a priority than cutting the price.

Also, there was an article on Gamespot the other day that PS3 losses were about 10% worse than expected.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But how do you reconcile "we expect to break even" with "I think this means a price cut is coming!"? That article is about getting costs down to where they are no longer losing $200 apiece, not getting costs down so they can cut the price again.

My only take on that would be that we don't know what the SKU structure would be at that point. Is the rumored 40 GB bare-bones machine the one that's going to break even? The 80 GB machine will actually be cheaper to make when it becomes the primary SKU than the 60 GB machine now being sold. There's a lot of generalization in regards to how they will achieve that break-even point and whether it will be break-even for all machines.

I totally agree that nothing is set in stone here. Just put it up for discussion's sake. With this kind of stuff, it changes every few weeks anyway. We'd never discuss anything if we waited for the final story. It's always changing.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It's illogical to think that the price situation doesn't have to do with profit. If the unit costs over 700 dollars to make right now (which is the indication from multiple sources) and they are just worried about cutting costs enought to "maybe" break even, then a price drop seems like the last thing they are thinking about. Your other points in your 2nd paragraph are correct, but the article you linked seems like the PS3 hitting a break even point is more of a priority than cutting the price.

Also, there was an article on Gamespot the other day that PS3 losses were about 10% worse than expected.

As I said, break-even points or a price cut are not the priority. Building the console base is a priority. Now, it would seem that the best way to get a major base increase would be to drop the price to $399 IMO, but we'll just have to see in that regard.

The larger-than-expected losses on the PS3 were the driver behind the price cut. That was cited when the cut was made. With that said, they have to take losses at this point. The losses now are minimal, relatively speaking. The losses in the future if they don't move to build the console base will be monumental in comparison.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just announced. New game studio formed headed by Jaffe and Incognito founder. New online version of Twisted Metal being developed (rumors abound that next God of War game will come from this studio as well).........

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174833

FOSTER CITY, Calif., July 27 -- Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc. (SCEA) today announced an exclusive game development deal with Eat, Sleep, Play(TM), a new software development company formed by legendary game creators David Jaffe and Scott Campbell. Under the agreement, Eat, Sleep, Play is signed on for a multi-year, multi-title deal to create titles for the PlayStation family of products, with the first slated for release in 2008.

Based in Utah, Eat, Sleep, Play is a newly formed company founded by David Jaffe, a former creative director for SCEA's Santa Monica Studios; and Scott Campbell, the founder of Incognito Entertainment, a dedicated development studio also under the SCEA Santa Monica Studios banner. Jaffe is perhaps best known as the co-creator and game director behind the multi-million PlayStation(R) platform franchises Twisted Metal(R) on PS one(R) & PlayStation(R)2 and God of War(R) on PlayStation 2. Campbell, a long-time collaborator with Jaffe and co-creator of the Twisted Metal titles, is currently receiving industry praise for Incognito's PLAYSTATION(R)3 (PS3(TM))-exclusive online air and ground combat game Warhawk(TM). Additionally, Jaffe and Campbell recently collaborated efforts on Calling All Cars(TM), a popular exclusive downloadable title for PLAYSTATION(R)Network.

In addition to the multi-year, multi-title deal to create titles for the PlayStation family of products, the company will also be creating Twisted Metal(R): Head On for PlayStation 2, which is scheduled to be released this winter. Twisted Metal: Head On will feature lost levels from the never released Twisted Metal: Black(R) Part II and a documentary on the series.

"We are extremely pleased to be working with David and Scott and supporting them in their new endeavor," said Shuhei Yoshida, senior vice president, product development, SCEA. "Through hit after hit, they have established themselves as two of the most talented individuals this industry has ever seen, and I look forward to seeing what kind of further gaming innovation they can bring to the PlayStation brand through our new development deal."

In conjunction with today's news, SCEA confirmed that the core members of the Incognito team responsible for Warhawk will remain within the SCEA Santa Monica Studios fold, headed up by Dylan Jobe, and will continue to produce content for this highly-anticipated title. Jobe, game director for Warhawk, is known for his work on the popular hit titles War of the Monsters(TM) and Twisted Metal: Black(R) for PlayStation 2.
SOURCE Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.

[Eaglesfan27]

Here is an interesting article. EA executives say they went with the wrong horse in focusing on the 360 and PS3. They plan on redirecting efforts more towards the Wii:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=169014



EA: 'We were wrong to focus on 360 and PS3'


Friday 27-Jul-2007 10:23 AM Company was "on the wrong horse" focusing primarily on Xbox 360 and PS3, says CEO John Riccitiello


<CENTER>15 Comments (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27052)</CENTER>
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Electronic Arts CEO John Riccitiello admitted today that his company was "on the wrong horse" when it opted to focus primarily on Xbox 360 and PS3 during the console transition period.

Speaking at EA's investor meeting today, Riccitiello, who recently took over Larry Probst's postion as CEO of EA in April, called fiscal 2007 "the toughest year in the company's history."

He added, "[The last transition] was tough because we typically have two to three platforms and a five year period... One of the biggest challenges, of course, was that not a lot of people anticipated the success of Nintendo that they've shown with their wand controller and their Wii.

That got ahead of us a little more than our expectations."

Shares have been languishing around the $50 mark for the past few years.

"Our stock hasn't moved as much as we'd like," Riccitello told one investor during a Q&A. He admitted that EA was on the "wrong horse" by concentrating mainly on the PS3 and Xbox 360 while throwing less resources towards the Wii during the console transition.

Nevertheless, Riccetello said that EA had the second-largest market share on Wii as of March with 19 percent, thanks mainly to Tiger Woods PGA Tour. Only Nintendo had a larger share.

The firm shipped six new Wii titles in fiscal 2007. EA also shipped eight titles on Nintendo DS.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here is an interesting article. EA executives say they went with the wrong horse in focusing on the 360 and PS3. They plan on redirecting efforts more towards the Wii:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=169014

Kind of a weird statement there. They only have put out 10 games for the PS3, with most of them being late ports from the 360 version. Someone needs to tell them that if they put out crap that wasn't good months before on the 360 and port the crap over to another system which likely has some people that own the 360, it ain't gonna sell under any conditions.

FWIW.....they can't leave the PS3 and 360 consoles on most of their franchises without jeopardizing some of their licencing agreements. Their major franchises will still come out for the 360 and PS3. It's just that the quality may go down or remain neutral because they become less intent on innovating for those games. Some would state that's already occurred.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sony president says no more price cuts for this year........

http://www.games-digest.com/2007/07/sony-president-.html

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Couple of discounted PS3 bundles for those in Canada:

BestBuy Bundle:

60GB ps3 + Motorstorm = $569.00

FutureShop:

Buy a 60GB ps3 for $549.99 and you can get Enchanted Arms for only 1cent.

[Kodos]

No sale!

[twothree]

Another post by Bill Harris concerning the just released June numbers. PS3, PS2, and Wii sales remain steady or slightly increase. 360 sales fall 33% in the first month after quality control issues hit the mainstream press (European sales fall over 40%). Also, note that these numbers are from last month before the price drop on the PS3.

Also, discussion on 3rd party Wii games and Japanese TV claims that Wii is lowering TV viewership.

Interesting totals regarding top 10 sales by console for the month as well (for EF27)

Wii: 4
PS2: 3
360: 3

Insane that the PS2 is still selling a ton of games. I'm sure games will continue to come out for the console as long as games sell. GH: The 80s will likely sell a lot of copies for the PS2 this month.

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2007/07/console-post-of-week-supplemental.html

I imagine the Wii might one day be lowering the TV viewership in the US also. According to Nielsen the Wii's peak playing time in the summer is 8 PM. Though, it only accounts for about 4% of the consoles being played online.

http://www.nielsen.com/media/pr_070726.html

[Pumpy Tudors]

Hardball was one of my favorite games on the Commodore 64, even though the attributes of the players were set by where they were in the batting order. The leadoff hitter for the All-Stars, no matter who you put there, would always ALWAYS 100% of the time be able to steal second base. It was impossible for the #8 hitter on the Champs to hit a home run. The #2 hitter for the Champs could steal second base most of the time, but not always. When I played as the Champs, I would put pitcher Tommy Euler in the cleanup spot just because I wanted to see a pitcher hit a home run. The cleanup hitters on both teams were the best at home runs.

What's amazing is that I recognized these things back then, and I was only 8 years old. Even more amazing is that I still played the hell out of the game. Can anyone imagine a baseball game coming out in the past 10 or 15 years that was designed that way? It would be a joke.

Uh, yeah, I'm just going off on a Commodore 64 tangent here.

[rkmsuf]

Hardball was one of my favorite games on the Commodore 64, even though the attributes of the players were set by where they were in the batting order. The leadoff hitter for the All-Stars, no matter who you put there, would always ALWAYS 100% of the time be able to steal second base. It was impossible for the #8 hitter on the Champs to hit a home run. The #2 hitter for the Champs could steal second base most of the time, but not always. When I played as the Champs, I would put pitcher Tommy Euler in the cleanup spot just because I wanted to see a pitcher hit a home run. The cleanup hitters on both teams were the best at home runs.

What's amazing is that I recognized these things back then, and I was only 8 years old. Even more amazing is that I still played the hell out of the game. Can anyone imagine a baseball game coming out in the past 10 or 15 years that was designed that way? It would be a joke.

Uh, yeah, I'm just going off on a Commodore 64 tangent here.

Fuck you, McCall.

Sorry, had to get that out.

[MikeVic]

There was a Hardball for the PC that frustrated the hell out of me. I think it was 2 or 3. Roberto Alomar on the Blue Jays had a 5/5 in speed, but sometimes he would run SO SLOW to first base that he would get thrown out on a ball that hit the outfield wall. AT FIRST! I couldn't take it after awhile and stopped playing.

[TazFTW]

"Max Payne 3" - being developed for PC, PS3 and 360.

Please be true. Loved the first two games.

[gstelmack]

There were two 360 Elites sitting in the case at the Target at Beaver Creek in Apex if anyone in the Triangle was looking for one...

[sterlingice]

Of course, Sony has no reason to be overestimating their sales..

Well, and they'd never do anything like use units shipped numbers to compete with others' units sold numbers *crickets chirp*

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

It's a blurry pic, but it looks like the Premium version of the 360 will drop 50 dollars to 349 soon:

hxxp://darkzero.co.uk/v4/games/news/12601

[gstelmack]

3 Elites at the GameStop at Cary Towne Center.

Maybe the shortages are over?

[Kodos]

I saw 6 Wiis at Target last night. First time I have ever seen them anywhere. I was mildly tempted, but I just can't see it being any more than a noveltly console for me.

[SackAttack]

3 Elites at the GameStop at Cary Towne Center.

Maybe the shortages are over?

They're so cute when they're naive.

I'm fairly certain that the purpose of the Elite, at least through this Christmas, is to distract people who might otherwise buy a PlayStation 3. Folks who just want a 360 and don't care much about the whole HDMI thing, they're going to buy the Premium SKU anyway.

The Elite, though, there's a very different subset of purchaser who wants that. I get the sense that Microsoft is going to string those people along through Christmas, after which point the shortage will have served its purpose - to blunt the impact of a first "real" Christmas for Sony, and that at THAT point we'll discover that the shortage has magically cleared up.

I mean, it's like this - we've had, in the four months since the SKU was released - something like 30 total Elites in stock at my store. That's not a demand-created shortage, there. That's considerably more artificial than that.

[markprior22]

Hardball was one of my favorite games on the Commodore 64, even though the attributes of the players were set by where they were in the batting order. The leadoff hitter for the All-Stars, no matter who you put there, would always ALWAYS 100% of the time be able to steal second base. It was impossible for the #8 hitter on the Champs to hit a home run. The #2 hitter for the Champs could steal second base most of the time, but not always. When I played as the Champs, I would put pitcher Tommy Euler in the cleanup spot just because I wanted to see a pitcher hit a home run. The cleanup hitters on both teams were the best at home runs.

What's amazing is that I recognized these things back then, and I was only 8 years old. Even more amazing is that I still played the hell out of the game. Can anyone imagine a baseball game coming out in the past 10 or 15 years that was designed that way? It would be a joke.

Uh, yeah, I'm just going off on a Commodore 64 tangent here.

I haven't thought about Tommy Euler in 20 yrs. That was a fun game.

[stevew]

That 50 dollar X360 price drop is confirmed in multiple ads now. Unsure whether it is all the sku's, or just the pro sku.

[SackAttack]

Best Buy no longer stocks the Core. I wonder how long before other retailers follow suit.

[gstelmack]

They're so cute when they're naive.

Who is naive? Me? The ones trying to buy one?

Look, lots of people said they were holding on to their cash until they could find an Elite. I pointed out that I've seen 5 this weekend. One way or another, they seem to be available for people to buy today when they weren't earlier this week. Just search on "Elite" in this very thread to see why I posted what I posted.

[SackAttack]

Who is naive? Me? The ones trying to buy one?

Look, lots of people said they were holding on to their cash until they could find an Elite. I pointed out that I've seen 5 this weekend. One way or another, they seem to be available for people to buy today when they weren't earlier this week. Just search on "Elite" in this very thread to see why I posted what I posted.

gstel, you're not naive for wanting one.

The naive comment was directed at the hopefulness of the shortage being over. I really don't believe it is, or there would have been significantly greater quantities at some point - any point - in the last four months.

Nothing wrong at all with wanting to get an Elite - I'd be in the same boat if I actually had an HDTV.

[Maple Leafs]

Nothing wrong at all with wanting to get an Elite - I'd be in the same boat if I actually had an HDTV.
How big a difference does the Elite's HD make as compared to the Premium?

When you could find an Elite, everyone raved about the HDMI. Now that they're gone, everyone says it was no big deal and you couldn't really tell the difference anyways. Which is it?

[SackAttack]

Maple, there's only maybe a half-dozen to ten games that actually do 1080p. So in a way, they're both right.

[Daimyo]

The other advantage with HDMI is you only need a single cable connection for sound and audio. How big of an advantage that is really depends on your setup and cable tolerance.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Rockstar announces exclusive game headed to the PS3. It'll be interesting to see if they stick to the 'sandbox' game type like GTA IV or move to a different genre of game.........

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2007/07/27/new-rockstar-games-franchise-exclusive-to-the-ps3/

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How big a difference does the Elite's HD make as compared to the Premium?

When you could find an Elite, everyone raved about the HDMI. Now that they're gone, everyone says it was no big deal and you couldn't really tell the difference anyways. Which is it?

I use the HDMI cable for my PS3. Honestly, there's not much difference. If I was getting a 360, I wouldn't base my purchase on whether it had a HDMI output. I'm sure there are a few tech guys who would lambast that opinion, but most people won't notice a major difference.

[Richard Weed]

I use the HDMI cable for my PS3. Honestly, there's not much difference. If I was getting a 360, I wouldn't base my purchase on whether it had a HDMI output. I'm sure there are a few tech guys who would lambast that opinion, but most people won't notice a major difference.
Yeah. I see no difference on a 55" TV between S-Video or Component. Maybe there's a difference when you go Hi-Def, but I doubt it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yeah. I see no difference on a 55" TV between S-Video or Component. Maybe there's a difference when you go Hi-Def, but I doubt it.

There's a big difference when you go to HD, but between the composite and the HDMI, there's not much difference.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Multiple sites are reporting that Best Buy is cutting the Core 360 from the stock list. It appears that the price cut will apply to only the Premium and the Elite and the Core will no longer be produced. So, much like the PS3 price drop, the lowest price system will be liquidated and not restocked. It's likely to be a quick sale as there are not a lot of Core systems produced. Most of them are Premium systems in surplus stock.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/30/best-buy-done-with-xbox-360-core-model

[Eaglesfan27]

Unlike the PS3, it doesn't appear to be a temporary price drop. Good move by Microsoft to put a bit more distance in price between the various SKU's and the PS3's SKU's, although I still think they should have gone for a hundred dollar drop.

[gstelmack]

gstel, you're not naive for wanting one.

The naive comment was directed at the hopefulness of the shortage being over. I really don't believe it is, or there would have been significantly greater quantities at some point - any point - in the last four months.

Nothing wrong at all with wanting to get an Elite - I'd be in the same boat if I actually had an HDTV.

My bad for using the word "shortages" then (which is what I meant by "Me"; I've already got a premium and have no interest in an Elite). All I meant by shortages being over was no one could find one a week ago, and now I'm seeing them all over the place. Whether the shortage was intentional or not, I don't know, I just know that now I'm seeing them. Those two in Target on Saturday were still there this evening. Maybe everyone is just waiting for the price drop and they'll disappear then.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Unlike the PS3, it doesn't appear to be a temporary price drop. Good move by Microsoft to put a bit more distance in price between the various SKU's and the PS3's SKU's, although I still think they should have gone for a hundred dollar drop.

Not understanding why the PS3 drop is temporary. It's all but a given that the 80 GB machine will drop to $499 once the 60 GB machines are out, which likely will be in the November/December timeframe. The only question is whether Sony will bring in a cheaper alternative at $399 when that occurs.

[Eaglesfan27]

Not understanding why the PS3 drop is temporary. It's all but a given that the 80 GB machine will drop to $499 once the 60 GB machines are out, which likely will be in the November/December timeframe. The only question is whether Sony will bring in a cheaper alternative at $399 when that occurs.

Why is that "all but a given?" So Sony can piss off people who just brought an inferior machine (the 60GB) at 499. I know you assume that a price drop will occur on the 80 GB model, but with Sony recently stating their goal is to break even financially this year, that seems like far from a certainty. Your guess certainly doesn't equal fact.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Why is that "all but a given?" So Sony can piss off people who just brought an inferior machine (the 60GB) at 499. I know you assume that a price drop will occur on the 80 GB model, but with Sony recently stating their goal is to break even financially this year, that seems like far from a certainty. Your guess certainly doesn't equal fact.

Their goal is to sell 10 million units in the next 9 months worldwide. That isn't going to happen under any circumstances if they leave the 80 GB unit at $599 after the 60 GB units are exhausted. Furthermore, any temporary price cut like the one you think will occur would kill any momentum that the PS3. It's simply not going to happen. They can't put the 80 GB at a lower price than $599 right now because no one would buy the 60 GB machine if they did that. In the meanwhile, they can take a MUCH smaller loss on the 80 GB machine while selling it at $599.

I said a price cut would have to come this summer. I was right about that. I'm positive that there is 0% chance that the 80 GB machine remains at $599 and creates a 'temporary price cut'. There's no economic circumstance imaginable where that's a situation that would end well for Sony and the PS3.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Hmmmm........sounds like my PS3 (along with every other one) will end up being confiscated and destroyed. :)

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6175851.html

FWIW......it looks like they could sue Intel and Microsoft under the same premise, but I honestly don't think this lawsuit has much merit. The patent being cited runs out in less than a year. Looks like a money grab more than anything else.

[Ryan S]

Why is that "all but a given?" So Sony can piss off people who just brought an inferior machine (the 60GB) at 499. I know you assume that a price drop will occur on the 80 GB model, but with Sony recently stating their goal is to break even financially this year, that seems like far from a certainty. Your guess certainly doesn't equal fact.

It seems far more likely to me that they will eventually reduce the price of the 80gb model rather than create a new budget model. After all, an 80gb hard drive will cost almost the same as a 60gb drive (or a 40gb drive)

If the cell processor and the BluRay drive are the expensive bits of hardware, stripping out backward compatibility and wifi is not going to make a significant saving.

[Eaglesfan27]

Their goal is to sell 10 million units in the next 9 months worldwide. That isn't going to happen under any circumstances if they leave the 80 GB unit at $599 after the 60 GB units are exhausted. Furthermore, any temporary price cut like the one you think will occur would kill any momentum that the PS3. It's simply not going to happen. They can't put the 80 GB at a lower price than $599 right now because no one would buy the 60 GB machine if they did that. In the meanwhile, they can take a MUCH smaller loss on the 80 GB machine while selling it at $599.

I said a price cut would have to come this summer. I was right about that. I'm positive that there is 0% chance that the 80 GB machine remains at $599 and creates a 'temporary price cut'. There's no economic circumstance imaginable where that's a situation that would end well for Sony and the PS3.

Sony has made plenty of stupid moves this release cycle. I wouldn't put anything past them now, including keeping the 80GB unit at 599 even after the 60 GB units are gone (which I think still won't happen until sometime next year.) I just disagree with your opinions continuing to be asserted as if they were fact. You've been wrong on quite a few of your guesses as well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sony has made plenty of stupid moves this release cycle. I wouldn't put anything past them now, including keeping the 80GB unit at 599 even after the 60 GB units are gone (which I think still won't happen until sometime next year.) I just disagree with your opinions continuing to be asserted as if they were fact. You've been wrong on quite a few of your guesses as well.

I totally disagree that there's any chance the 80 GB machine remains at $599. I'm actually a bit surprised that you think there's any chance that will actually remain status quo. From an economic standpoint, it makes no sense. I'd fall over in shock if the 80 GB machine was priced any higher than $499 by December 31st of this year.

[MikeVic]

I totally disagree that there's any chance the 80 GB machine remains at $599. I'm actually a bit surprised that you think there's any chance that will actually remain status quo. From an economic standpoint, it makes no sense. I'd fall over in shock if the 80 GB machine was priced any higher than $499 by December 31st of this year.

A price drop near the end of the year, and after Christmas, would be pretty useless for this year I think. If they're going to drop the price, you have to do it before November I think.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

A price drop near the end of the year, and after Christmas, would be pretty useless for this year I think. If they're going to drop the price, you have to do it before November I think.

Totally agree. Price needs to drop a week before Thanksgiving at the very latest. I only made the comment regarding end of year in regards to EF27's comment that the 60 GB machine supply wouldn't be exhausted until next year, therefore, the price wouldn't come down until then. I think that the 60 GB machine supply will be moved for the most part before year end. Also, from a supply curve perspective, Sony can't wait until that 60 GB machine is in short supply to drop the 80 GB machine's price. That's why the Thanksgiving timeframe appears to be a likely time for price movement.

[Kodos]

So basically, the 80 GB has 20 more GBS, no WiFi, and no backward compatibility versus the 60 GB, right? Those are the main differences?

[Bee]

I think it comes with a game too.

[stevew]

So basically, the 80 GB has 20 more GBS, no WiFi, and no backward compatibility versus the 60 GB, right? Those are the main differences?

It has wifi, but it doesn't have the Emotion Engine chip to play ps2 games with. Basically the games are emulated on the 80gb PS3.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So basically, the 80 GB has 20 more GBS, no WiFi, and no backward compatibility versus the 60 GB, right? Those are the main differences?

It has both WiFi and backwards compatibility. Only difference are the 20 GB in hard drive and the 80 GB machine uses software emulation for backward compatibility rather than the Emotion Engine chip. Motorstorm also comes as a pack-in game.

[Kodos]

I meant emulation versus having the chip. I prefer having the actual chip.

[Eaglesfan27]

I meant emulation versus having the chip. I prefer having the actual chip.

I do too, since there is a fairly extensive list of games that don't work at all or have significant problems with the emulation. However, the chip isn't a big enough selling point for me to buy before a price drop or 3.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I do too, since there is a fairly extensive list of games that don't work at all or have significant problems with the emulation. However, the chip isn't a big enough selling point for me to buy before a price drop or 3.

It should be noted that the compatibility percentage for PS1 and PS2 games with emulation still runs just under 90%. That's an awful lot of games that work with the emulation. Also, there is supposed to be an update coming in the next major firmware release later this fall (2.0) to reduce the number of games that don't work with the software emulation.

[Eaglesfan27]

It should be noted that the compatibility percentage for PS1 and PS2 games with emulation still runs just under 90%. That's an awful lot of games that work with the emulation. Also, there is supposed to be an update coming in the next major firmware release later this fall (2.0) to reduce the number of games that don't work with the software emulation.

How many of that percentage run without any issues? Last time I looked at the list, there were "minor issues" with a huge number of the games.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How many of that percentage run without any issues? Last time I looked at the list, there were "minor issues" with a huge number of the games.

Yeah, I don't know the exact numbers on the 'minor issue' list that you mention. I tried to search it, but came up with dates articles from last year, so I'm not certain where an updated list is located. The percentage that I mention does include those games which have some minor issues.

Honestly, if the backwards compatibility means that much to you, you should likely get the 60 GB machine. I wouldn't be surprised to see 60 GB used machines actually have a somewhat high price for a used console in the coming years just because the Emotion chip is in them. They'll definitely be cheaper than now, but they'll likely be pretty scarce. The other obvious alternative is to keep your PS2 and then you don't have to worry about the compatibility. They're not worth much on trade in anyway.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

For those that are worried about buying the defective 360's if a price drop does occur, it looks like buying an Elite console may be your best bet. Recently manufactured Elite units finally have an additional heat sink to try to curtail the 'red ring of death' problem caused by excessive heat.

Obviously, it's not a guarantee that you won't have a problem, but it's a step in the right direction. Surprised that MS isn't pointing out to consumers that this has been added to the systems to slow the negative PR.

http://loot-ninja.com/2007/07/31/new-xbox-360-elites-have-added-heat-sink/

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like multiple disc games are going to become more standard on the 360's. Yet another developer has run into space problems due to the DVD format that will limit game features. This time it's the developers of Project Gotham Racing 4.......

http://loot-ninja.com/2007/07/30/pgr4-not-to-have-night-and-day-racing-for-same-tracks/

[Bee]

How many multiple disc games are there for the 360?

[Eaglesfan27]

How many multiple disc games are there for the 360?

0 right now.

[gstelmack]

I totally disagree that there's any chance the 80 GB machine remains at $599. I'm actually a bit surprised that you think there's any chance that will actually remain status quo. From an economic standpoint, it makes no sense. I'd fall over in shock if the 80 GB machine was priced any higher than $499 by December 31st of this year.

But didn't you post an article where Sony claimed that the drop in price of components would finally allow them to break even? Sony has publically stated they may finally break even, and you continue to use this as evidence they'll drop the price, despite their focus on breaking even.

You may end up correct, but there is evidence they won't cut.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

0 right now.

Technically correct, but Blue Dragon already has 3 DVD's in Japan and other developers have expressed concern about disc size. The PGR4 team could obviously use an extra disc, but they're trying to hold to the one disc setup. It's unfortunate because the consumers aren't getting all the features that the developers have to offer because of the disc size issues. I'm not sure what the hang-up in perception is about keeping a game to one disc. If I was a 360 owner, I would prefer they add the extra disc and give me the full feature set. I'd get over the fact that I would have to switch a disc here and there. Video gamers could lose 10 pounds if they'd have to get off their duff and change a disc every once in awhile.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But didn't you post an article where Sony claimed that the drop in price of components would finally allow them to break even? Sony has publically stated they may finally break even, and you continue to use this as evidence they'll drop the price, despite their focus on breaking even.

You may end up correct, but there is evidence they won't cut.

I did. That's the tough decision that they're going to have around Thanksgiving. Do we want to keep moving towards break-even units by March or do we need to spur further growth of the console base by making another price cut. This interview with the Eidos CEO addresses this topic. He says that the PS3 would be a great value at a mass market price point if they dropped the price to $399. I tend to agree with him.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27195

[Kodos]

If they did a trade-in of the PS2 for a 60 GB PS3 at $399, I'd probably do that.

[MikeVic]

Video gamers could lose 10 pounds if they'd have to get off their duff and change a disc every once in awhile.

Or you can solve this problem by playing the Wii. :D

[BrianD]

Or you can solve this problem by playing the Wii. :D

Real gamers are proud of the extra 10 pounds. :)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Real gamers are proud of the extra 10 pounds. :)

^^^^fatty!!!!^^^^ :)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Or you can solve this problem by playing the Wii. :D

Yep, the Wii does not have those issues. My problem is that I break a sweat playing Wii Tennis. :)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Exhibitor list for the Tokyo Game Show released.........

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/809/809460p1.html

[wade moore]

I totally disagree that there's any chance the 80 GB machine remains at $599. I'm actually a bit surprised that you think there's any chance that will actually remain status quo. From an economic standpoint, it makes no sense. I'd fall over in shock if the 80 GB machine was priced any higher than $499 by December 31st of this year.

It didn't make economic sense to price these machines at $600+ in the first place, but they did it anyways.

Your prime mistake here is assuming that Sony will use logic and good business sense all of a sudden.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It didn't make economic sense to price these machines at $600+ in the first place, but they did it anyways.

Your prime mistake here is assuming that Sony will use logic and good business sense all of a sudden.

They've done what they needed to do as of late. Their only mistake was letting the SCEE head spill the beans a bit too soon. I can't find much fault with what they've done over the past couple of months. Dropped the price, got units moving, and produced a new unit that will help them quite a bit with per-unit costs. If they can follow it up with a price cut before Thanksgiving, the PS3 will sell quite a few units. We'll have to see if they continue to make positive steps towards becoming a part of this race again.

[Eaglesfan27]

According to a Circuit City flier, the 360 Core unit will drop 20 dollars in price to 279.99, the premium will drop 50 dollars to 349 and come with the table tennis game, and the Elite will drop 30 dollars to 449 starting next week.

http://forums.operationsports.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=214263&page=4

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

According to a Circuit City flier, the 360 Core unit will drop 20 dollars in price to 279.99, the premium will drop 50 dollars to 349 and come with the table tennis game, and the Elite will drop 30 dollars to 449 starting next week.

http://forums.operationsports.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=214263&page=4

Hmmmm......seems like a drop of $50 for Core and Premium and $80 for the Elite would have put them in a much better position. Have to see what that does to the sales numbers.

[wade moore]

If the Elite could come down to $299 I'd probably buy it tomorrow. I'm curious to see what this does to the price of refurbished (as long as that 3 year warranty transfers) and maybe I'll go that route.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Lots of new gaming news overnight.

Looks like I hit the nail on the head regarding the possible release of MGS4 before the end of the fiscal year to meet the sales target of 10M units in the next 9 months that Sony has set for themselves. MGS4 will likely ship in March worldwide according to this article.....

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=169219


Looks like Crysis will be ported to the PS3 once the PC version is released. Job opportunities on the team are now available.....

Job listing asking for PS3 developers/knowledge base:
http://crytek.de/inside_crytek/item.php?id=42&s=jobs&pID=4

Interview with Crytek CEO where he neither confirms nor denies:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=169174


Sony Chief of Marketing in New Zealand may have let a future PS3 feature slip out. Digital tuner will be available next year to allow PS3 users to use their console as a fully programmable HD-DVR system.....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4146820a9175.html

Quote from the article:

"We're also hoping next year – about the same time that Freeview launches its terrestrial broadcasting service (expected to be in March) – to release a digital tuner for the PS3, turning it into a programmable TV recorder."

[sterlingice]

Totally agree. Price needs to drop a week before Thanksgiving at the very latest. I only made the comment regarding end of year in regards to EF27's comment that the 60 GB machine supply wouldn't be exhausted until next year, therefore, the price wouldn't come down until then. I think that the 60 GB machine supply will be moved for the most part before year end. Also, from a supply curve perspective, Sony can't wait until that 60 GB machine is in short supply to drop the 80 GB machine's price. That's why the Thanksgiving timeframe appears to be a likely time for price movement.

It has to be in October to really be effective. The average person out there isn't watching this like a hawk. To get it into people's minds that they want to spend $500 or $400 before Christmas, you have to get them thinking about it in advance. And it has to be everywhere and for a little while before people even start considering it. Not everyone is as "consumer video game savy" as the people discussing things in this thread.

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It has to be in October to really be effective. The average person out there isn't watching this like a hawk. To get it into people's minds that they want to spend $500 or $400 before Christmas, you have to get them thinking about it in advance. And it has to be everywhere and for a little while before people even start considering it. Not everyone is as "consumer video game savy" as the people discussing things in this thread.

SI

I don't think most people plan that far in advance for X-mas shopping. Black Friday is really the first time that people buy holiday gifts. Dropping the price a week or two before that date should allow enough buzz to be generated and the store circulars will have that new price prominently listed for Black Friday.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Good article here about the current state of the console market after the Sony price drop.....

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27219


Famitsu console sales numbers out of Japan from last week report a 345% jump in PS3 console sales (Minna no Golf 5 was released last week in Japan). Wii and PS2 sales remained steady with the 360 showing a slight increase in sales as well.......

Wii 70000
PS3 38000
PS2 14000
360 3800


A rumor mill article discussing possible PS3 exclusives/lost exclusives......

Rumor 1: Sony has made a deal to secure FFXIII and Vs.XIII's exclusivity.

I heard this rumor back in March when the SCE France president mentioned that FFXIII's exclusivity was "under discussion". Well, my sources told me that "under discussion" meant that Sony was making Square an offer to keep the game on their platform, and their platform only. A few months later SE stated that no FF games would be hitting the 360, which basically confirms that the deal with Sony has probably gone through. I am not sure as to what extent the deal declares exclusivity, but I know that Sony has done something to keep it exclusive. However, since there is no official light shed on this there is still a chance that a FF game could hit 360, but right now it seems unlikely. Since my sources have never told me if the exclusivity deal went through or not, I cannot be too sure of exclusivity, but since a 360 announcement has not been made, and I did hear that Sony was making SE and offer, I say that it is likely Square took the deal.

Chance of happening: 90%

Rumor 2: Sony has made Capcom an offer to make a PS3 exclusive.

I heard this from one of my most reliable sources (never been wrong) in July, that SCE President and CEO Kaz Harai has paid Capcom a visit and made them an offer to develop a game exclusively for the PS3. I am not sure if the game is a sequel or spin-off to a long standing Capcom franchise or if it is a whole new IP, but I can tell you that they are definitely working on something for Sony that takes full advantage of the PS3 hardware. July's issue of EGM even sheds light on the rumor briefly so I think it is safe to assure that this rumor is pretty likely. I am guessing that Sony is probably funding development. Keep an eye out for the game, we should be seeing it sometime in the future.

Chance of happening: 99%

Rumor 3: Part of Sony and Epic's UE3 contract specifies that Epic will be developing a new IP exclusively for the PS3 under SCE.

This rumor seems pretty likely, Sony even mentioned at their press conference that the contract they had to get UE3 optimized for PS3 was "multistage" and the folks on the 1up show even mentioned that they had heard that part of the contract with Sony was for a new PS3 IP. The source on this one is kind of iffy, but I trust him enough to report this, plus I think it is even more likely to happen now that 1up has also mentioned it. in short, Epic will be developing a new IP exclusively for PS3 at some point. I do not know when they will start developing it or what it is, but I know that it will be published by Sony and it will be exclusive to PS3.

Chance of Happening: 85%

Rumor 4: Sony will be publishing a game by Bioware for the PS3.

For my final Rumor of this issue, I will be talking about what I have heard about Bioware's next console game. Apparently Bioware has agreed to develop a new exclusive IP for the PS3 under Sony. The source on this one is right most of the time, so I can see the reliability in this one. Plus, I believe the president of Bioware already let it slip that they were working on a PS3 game. Plus, once again the pages of EGM have also shed light on this rumor, so believe what you want. All I know is that the game is a new IP exclusive to PS3, and publishes by SCE. Bioware is an independent 3rd party dev that is known to work closely with hardware manufacturers, similarly to Epic. I say this one is pretty likely, especially since the president of Bioware already mentioned a PS3 game.

Chance of Happening: 92%

[twothree]

Good article here about the current state of the console market after the Sony price drop.....

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27219


The second half of that article is a good read.


Which, inevitably, leads us back to the question which hangs over this whole issue - why not just lop money off the price tag and be done with it?

The answer, we believe, lies with Sony's incredibly unusual position in the games market. For Microsoft, its approach to the videogames sector is very simple, and the reasoning be-hind its various decisions is correspondingly simple.

It has one product in the market, and its aim is to gain the maximum possible market share for that product. The original Xbox was killed off before the Xbox 360 even launched; there is no existing installed base to worry about or support. Better again, the firm has showed no qualms about sinking billions of dollars into gaining market share; the original Xbox made vast losses, and few who have any insight into the figures underlying Microsoft's console business believe that the Xbox 360 will ever bring the Xbox division into the black. For the odd quarter here and there, perhaps; but overall? Not a chance.

Sony, by comparison, has a vast number of factors to take into account when it makes de-cisions on pricing and market positioning. At the heart of this is the fact that right now, the PlayStation 3 is not Sony's main product in the videogames space - that honour belongs to the PlayStation 2, a system which recently passed 118 million units sold and is by many measures the most successful videogames console ever created.

PlayStation 2 is Sony's work horse, its cash cow, and probably a menagerie of other barn animal metaphors to boot. It is a vastly profitable business, both for Sony - thanks to prof-itable hardware sales, profitable accessories and lucrative licensing fees - and for most of the industry's major third party publishers, many of whom enjoy far better profit margins on PS2 software than on next-gen titles.

It is, in other words, the engine which continues to drive not just Sony's business, but the business of many third-party publishers. Sony's determination to keep it alive, combined with the introduction of the PSP - a portable platform whose hardware shares many simi-larities with the PS2 - guarantees that its lifespan will be even longer than that of the PSone, a platform which was still going fairly strong eight years after launch.

Sony's dilemma is apparent. PS3 is the future, of course - for Sony at least, if not neces-sarily for the industry as a whole. However, the harsh reality of the present is that Sony cannot afford to do anything that will damage the PS2's lifespan and profitability. Unlike Microsoft, it is faced with an almost impossible balancing act; attempting to establish the PS3, without crushing the PS2.

If Sony rushed to cut the price of the PS3, it would of course spur sales - and would drive Sony Computer Entertainment spiralling into billions of dollars of loss. By pushing the PS3 too quickly into the mass-market price points occupied by Nintendo, and coveted by Mi-crosoft, Sony would effectively be replacing the profitable PS2 business with the loss-making PS3 business. It would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs (we knew there was another barnyard metaphor there somewhere) and replace it with a product which, at present, does nothing but devour gold.

As such, the firm's dalliances with "value proposition" take on a different meaning. Sony wants consumers to feel that the company is responding to their concerns, and it wants to ensure that the Xbox 360 doesn't grow its head start any further - but equally, it does not want to do too much, too soon.

For now, the firm's strategy is to maintain the PS3 as a very high-end, expensive and pre-sumably desirable system, which is out of reach for the average consumer but provides them with a clear upgrade path at some point in future. In the meanwhile, in theory, they will continue to buy PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable hardware and software.

This is what David Reeves means when he says that Sony acknowledges that sales of the PS3 are not enormous, but that the company is satisfied that it is hitting its targets. Sony's targets aren't just for PS3 sales; they encompass PSP and PS2 sales, not to mention software sales for those platforms.

Right now, PS3 is, indeed, not selling in enormous numbers - but PSP and PS2, the firm's profitable platforms and by extension the most important, are ticking along nicely despite strong competition from Nintendo around their price points.

It is, of course, a terribly risky game to play - but it's the only game in town for Sony. Bal-ancing the need to maintain sales of previous generation hardware against its battle with Microsoft in the next-gen is an extraordinary high-wire to walk along. Doing too little to spur PS3 sales could erode consumer confidence and hand the next generation to Microsoft. Doing too much would ensure victory in the next-gen battle, but would leave Sony finan-cially devastated and facing disaster.

Whether this month's value adjustments strike the balance correctly remains to be seen. However, it's vital to remember, when watching Sony's movements in the market, that its position is more complex than that of its rivals. That is, of course, no excuse for misleading or disappointing consumers; but compared to Microsoft's deep pockets and single-platform strategy, Sony's situation is altogether more difficult.

When is a price cut not a price cut? When, instead, it's a careful step along a very high tight rope. Sony's next steps, in the coming six months, will be crucial - the firm is accom-plished at this stunt, but there's no safety net below.

[MikeVic]

That writer uses a hyphenation (one of those "-" things) in a couple of weird spots...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

That writer uses a hyphenation (one of those "-" things) in a couple of weird spots...

It's sometimes a good thing to use an underutilized key every now and then. Makes the "-" key feel more wanted.......

[twothree]

That writer uses a hyphenation (one of those "-" things) in a couple of weird spots...

Perhaps the writer originally wrote it in a program that automatically added hyphens to a fixed width article and then saved it with the hyphens.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Couple of recent quotes from Sony/MS execs......

Phil Harrison comments about Madden on PS3 being only 30 FPS

"[pause] Well, I can only point to our own sports studio [doing a] 1080p, 60 frames-per-second basketball game, but I'm afraid I have no idea. We're providing some tools and technologies from our worldwide studio's core technology groups to 3rd parties now, as well. You may remember something from GDC, we announced this thing called EDGE and that's now widely deployed within the 3rd party community, and that is clearly improving the developer's ability to maximize what the CELL processor does. Hopefully, that will assist folks like EA. It would concern me if the platform was incapable of doing it, but we've proven the platform is capable of doing it, so it's not a PlayStation 3 issue. I'm trying to be polite."

Bill Gates comments about the competitors (evidently Sony is 'just in video games' as a company):

"So we've always wanted to be a company that got the benefit of the scale, going back to the beginning where we said, hey we're not a one-product company. Many of our competitors were one-product companies. Now they're not one-product companies, but Sony's just in video games, Nokia's largely just in mobile phones, IBM's largely in enterprise type software situations. And so is it a benefit to us that we work across these realms that we can expose you to the same user interface at home that you get at work? We think so. But there's a lot of execution behind taking that and getting the right things in the marketplace."

[Eaglesfan27]

Again, Phil Harrison's comments would sting EA quite a bit more if 2ksports and other 3rd party developers weren't having just as much trouble getting their games to run optimally on the PS3. It's not just EA's games that are performing less optimally on the PS3 compared to the 360.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Again, Phil Harrison's comments would sting EA quite a bit more if 2ksports and other 3rd party developers weren't having just as much trouble getting their games to run optimally on the PS3. It's not just EA's games that are performing less optimally on the PS3 compared to the 360.

Certainly don't disagree with that. It's a complicated system that most developers aren't willing to be the first one to invest and actually use the full processing power at this point. They'd rather wait for another developer to create some new tools and ideas so they don't have to put in as much work into developing games fully for the system.

I will say that I hate Harrison's choice of examples in this situatoin. The Sony NBA game was not a very good game at all. It looked pretty and ran smoothly in 1080p, but the gameplay hadn't improve any over its predecessors. There were some non-sports games that would have been much better choices IMO.

There's more 1080p games coming out for the PS3 this fall that appear to have no problems running at 60fps according to previews. Developers are going to have less and less excuses as we move foward in the console's life.

[SackAttack]

One of the Madden devs at E3 said something about Madden 06 and 07 running at 30 fps on the Xbox 360, and this being the first version that'll run at 60.

I don't know if that's something to hang on Sony's doorstep just yet, in other words.

[Glengoyne]

That writer uses a hyphenation (one of those "-" things) in a couple of weird spots...

A hymen? I've encountered those. I'm certainly not going to disclose any locations though.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like Lair and Heavenly Sword have both had their release dates moved to September 4th. I'd be surprised if they both end up getting released on the same day. Doesn't seem like a good move to split attention between two titles with big expectations.

[Bee]

Looks like multiple disc games are going to become more standard on the 360's. Yet another developer has run into space problems due to the DVD format that will limit game features. This time it's the developers of Project Gotham Racing 4.......

http://loot-ninja.com/2007/07/30/pgr4-not-to-have-night-and-day-racing-for-same-tracks/


http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257

Dude...I think he called you out. ;) :D

Edit: Here's the text from the developer for those who can't access the site.

As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

[Eaglesfan27]

Looks like Lair and Heavenly Sword have both had their release dates moved to September 4th. I'd be surprised if they both end up getting released on the same day. Doesn't seem like a good move to split attention between two titles with big expectations.

Lair is getting killed in early impressions. The general consensus has been that it looks great, but the gameplay is lacking and difficult to control. If that is true, then it might make sense to take attention away from that by releasing them both. Heavenly Sword's early impressions have generally been quite positive.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Lair is getting killed in early impressions. The general consensus has been that it looks great, but the gameplay is lacking and difficult to control. If that is true, then it might make sense to take attention away from that by releasing them both. Heavenly Sword's early impressions have generally been quite positive.

You wonder if Lair is going to get a new review copy. They reviewed those games 3 weeks before the original release date. There's likely going to be some changes from those copies.

The reviews have definitely been mixed (high of 9.0 and low of 6.5). The control discussion is an interesting one. I'm not sure how many people will actually use the motion controls and will opt for the analog sticks instead. Cheapy D had mentioned on his podcast that the motion controls worked OK, but he just preferred the analog stick for the most part. I'm interested to get it and see which one is the better control system. It is nice that they included both control systems so you have that option.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257

Dude...I think he called you out. ;) :D

Edit: Here's the text from the developer for those who can't access the site.

That's an awful lot of words to avoid addressing the actual point at hand. All he did was add a further question to the mix. He stated that they decided against a day/night setup and added dynamic weather instead. That sounds great. So that means that you'll have some outstanding looking thunderstorm effects when lightining strikes at night, right? No, because you ran out of room to make night effects.

At the end of his release, he says:

At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

What design decision? I thought you put everything in there that you wanted in the game? Why was there any 'decision' if there was no need to cut anything? It's not like night races were some new setup that had never been achieved in a video game before.

He would have been better off letting the sleeping dogs lie than to make the contradictory statement he released.

[Bee]

Seemed pretty straightforward to me...

Yet another developer has run into space problems due to the DVD format that will limit game features.

a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic
DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games
We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

;)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

New worldwide sales numbers in for last week.....

Worldwide Console Weekly Total for week ending July 29th........

Wii........228,542
PS3........109,067
Xbox 360........56,779

[MikeVic]

New worldwide sales numbers in for last week.....

No PS3 or XBox?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

No PS3 or XBox?

Sorry, mislabeled the PS3 number as PS2. Fixed now.

[albionmoonlight]

The Wii just amazes me with those constant numbers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The Wii just amazes me with those constant numbers.

Imagine what will happen later next year with a $50 price drop.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This evasive answer from a Bioware developer is fueling rumors that a Bioshock PS3 game is already being developed. Likely will only be a timed exclusive for the 360.........

GAMEPRO
GP: Also, another comment you might not be too open to talking about, but will we be seeing or hearing anything about Bioshock on the PS3 down the road?

LEVINE: Right now we’re totally focused on making the game for Xbox 360. Microsoft has been a great partner, we love the platform, and we get to make a PC game as well. That’s great because we come from the PC side, but right now we’re focused on getting the game out the door on the platform that we’re on and that we love.

[sabotai]

What design decision?

To include a dynamic weather system or not and how to go about doing it. They chose to go with dynamic lighting, among others, to show varying weather effects instead of prerendered textures and other graphics.

I thought you put everything in there that you wanted in the game?

They did, they wanted to put a dynamic weather system in their game and they put it in,

Why was there any 'decision' if there was no need to cut anything?

Do you even know what a design decision is?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

To include a dynamic weather system or not and how to go about doing it. They chose to go with dynamic lighting, among others, to show varying weather effects instead of prerendered textures and other graphics.

They did, they wanted to put a dynamic weather system in their game and they put it in,

Do you even know what a design decision is?

So your opinion is that they put every feature in that game that they wanted in there, correct?

[dawgfan]

So your opinion is that they put every feature in that game that they wanted in there, correct?
No game ever has every feature the game team wants to have. And among the reasons for this, the amount of space on a DVD is near the very bottom of the list.

Have you ever worked on a video game before? It sure doesn't sound like it...

[sabotai]

So your opinion is that they put every feature in that game that they wanted in there, correct?

My belief is that they didn't have to cut anything out of their design document due to the space available on one DVD disc. If you want to equate "want" with what was in the final design document, then yeah, it sounds like they got everything in from the words the guy used (as opposed to "want" equating "wouldn't it be super awesome if...")

So anyway, have you been able to look up what "design decision" means yet?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

No game ever has every feature the game team wants to have. And among the reasons for this, the amount of space on a DVD is near the very bottom of the list.

Have you ever worked on a video game before? It sure doesn't sound like it...

I have worked in both programming and testing capacities on various projects in gaming and other fields for 10+ years. I don't feel the need to turn this into a spitting match at any level. It doesn't make me any smarter or dumber than anyone else who would like to discuss the topic.

IMO, the night track option could have been added in this case.

[MikeVic]

I have worked in both programming and testing capacities on various projects in gaming and other fields for 10+ years. I don't feel the need to turn this into a spitting match at any level. It doesn't make me any smarter or dumber than anyone else who would like to discuss the topic.

IMO, the night track option could have been added in this case.

I haven't been following, but was the night/day stuff already coded and tested fully? If not, then maybe they didn't want to spend any more time and resources on it. Or maybe their engine/framework couldn't handle the night/day thing added on to it without performance drawbacks?

[dawgfan]

I have worked in both programming and testing capacities on various projects in gaming and other fields for 10+ years. I don't feel the need to turn this into a spitting match at any level. It doesn't make me any smarter or dumber than anyone else who would like to discuss the topic.

IMO, the night track option could have been added in this case.
If you've been in the video game industry, then you should know that all kinds of design decisions are made throughout the course of a project, many to reduce scope so that the game can be completed in a reasonable amount of time and within a reasonable budget. Some decisions are made based on space, but those decisions are far more likely to be about the amount of RAM available on the system as opposed to the space on the disk.

Considering you had no involvement whatsoever with the making of PGR4, unless you have a contact within Bizarre Creations that is giving you inside info, who are you to say that they could've added the night track option?

Now, if you want to opine as a gamer that you're disappointed that night track weren't added, that's a whole different subject. But you appear to be weighing in from a technical/game design standpoint, and I'm calling bullshit on that unless you can show that you know what you're talking about in this case.

I saw nothing in the Bizarre Creations developer's quote that indicated night tracks could've been added if only there were more space on the disk. Sounds instead like it was legitimately a design decision to go a different direction in how they wanted to light and render their environments, a decision that altered the range from simply day/night environments to a more dynamic weather system.

[Deattribution]

This doesn't even have anything to do with whether you know anything about creating games or not, it's just the developers trying to calm the storm they created. Basically they said that given the opportunity they could have created a more dynamic game with an additional room - and it caused a shit storm for Microsoft. Now they're trying to fix it by saying they are making 'design decisions'. Do you actually think they're going to say 'well if we were on the PS3' (which they aren't) and we could use the blu-ray (which they can't) and add everything we want on one disk... (again, which they can't) so anyway here is what we can make though'. It sounds like the only 'design decision' they made was that it would be a terrible move to be the first US 360 game to use multiple disk.

Did they add everything they wanted on a single disk? I'm sure they did. Would they have liked to have had that additional room? they already admitted to that basically, you don't need to have to work on a game or worked with the company to know that.

[dawgfan]

This doesn't even have anything to do with whether you know anything about creating games or not, it's just the developers trying to calm the storm they created. Basically they said that given the opportunity they could have created a more dynamic game with an additional room - and it caused a shit storm for Microsoft. Now they're trying to fix it by saying they are making 'design decisions'. Do you actually think they're going to say 'well if we were on the PS3' (which they aren't) and we could use the blu-ray (which they can't) and add everything we want on one disk... (again, which they can't) so anyway here is what we can make though'. It sounds like the only 'design decision' they made was that it would be a terrible move to be the first US 360 game to use multiple disk.
What you fail to acknowledge is that there are many decisions that go into determining what ends up as the final game product. Was space limitation on a standard DVD one of the factors? Could be. Was the it the only factor in determining the time of day and weather lighting effects? Highly unlikely.

As someone that has worked in the industry for the last 9 years and sat in on countless meetings figuring out how we can do various features and whether they were worth the cost in time and resources, I can tell you that this decision was likely at least as much about reducing the amount of work for the environment team in having to create different lighting maps for different times of the day.

Maybe the original poster from Bizarre was correct in saying that space limitations were the reason they opted to go with the dynamic weather system, and the follow-up postings were damage-control ordered by Microsoft. Or, maybe the first guy didn't really know what he was talking about, and the follow-up was to correct his mistake. I've seen both scenarios happen before.

What's been overlooked so far is how this website "Loot Ninja" has taken this issue and twisted the story to meet some preconceived belief they have about disk space inhibiting 360 game development. To say as they do that "...the DVD’s limitations stand in the way of progress" is a very biased view of the situation - in fact, it appears that Bizarre has indeed pushed progress on the system by adding a much more dynamic lighting/weather solution.

[gstelmack]

What's been overlooked so far is how this website "Loot Ninja" has taken this issue and twisted the story to meet some preconceived belief they have about disk space inhibiting 360 game development. To say as they do that "...the DVD’s limitations stand in the way of progress" is a very biased view of the situation - in fact, it appears that Bizarre has indeed pushed progress on the system by adding a much more dynamic lighting/weather solution.

Yup. I just don't see DVD size as being that much of an issue right now. You have to actually load all that content after all...

[sabotai]

I just don't see DVD size as being that much of an issue right now.

Agreed, it isn't, but a subset of gamers really wishes it was.

[BrianD]

Have there been other articles indicating that nighttime isn't included in this game? They say they have gone away from two static times of day, but is there any reason to expect that dynamic weather/lighting couldn't also produce night?

[Eaglesfan27]

Nighttime is in the game. There just aren't tracks that have "true" daytime and nighttime both on the same track. However, weather effects can make daytime very dark.

[BrianD]

Nighttime is in the game. There just aren't tracks that have "true" daytime and nighttime both on the same track. However, weather effects can make daytime very dark.

That was pretty much my point. And from a gamer's perspective, isn't this preferable? I would much rather have a dynamic system which can evolve throughout the day rather than just a static day-mode and night-mode.

[KWhit]

Yup. I just don't see DVD size as being that much of an issue right now. You have to actually load all that content after all...

The developer contradicts himself on that. His original quote was this (bolding mine):

You won’t see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn’t a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we’ve worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.


Then later (after a ton of sites started up a shitstorm about it), he posted this (italics and bolding his):


When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.


And


We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.



So he is contradicting himself, or more than likely using semantics to cover his ass. They didn't use DVD size as a factor in their design. Ok. They didn't cut content to fit on the disc. Fine. There is still the likelyhood that post Design phase and prior to Content Development there was a determination made about how many courses and textures the DVD could hold and that affected the ultimate end product.

[KWhit]

Agreed, it isn't, but a subset of gamers really wishes it was.

By the way, it really pained me to type what I just did and agree with some of Mizzou's anti-360 propaganda.

[MikeVic]

The developer contradicts himself on that. His original quote was this (bolding mine):




Then later (after a ton of sites started up a shitstorm about it), he posted this (italics and bolding his):



And




So he is contradicting himself, or more than likely using semantics to cover his ass. They didn't use DVD size as a factor in their design. Ok. They didn't cut content to fit on the disc. Fine. There is still the likelyhood that post Design phase and prior to Content Development there was a determination made about how many courses and textures the DVD could hold and that affected the ultimate end product.


Hey, nice explanation.

[sabotai]

The developer contradicts himself on that.

What you quoted likely came from two different people. The first quote was from a member of their message board named "Ben" (who is a member of the staff). The second one doesn't state who wrote it.

Most games have more than one developer. ;)

[Eaglesfan27]

In a surprising move, GTA IV has been delayed until 2008:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176074.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1

Interesting quote in the article:


"Certain elements of development proved to be more time-intensive than expected, especially given the commitment for a simultaneous release on two very different platforms," said Take-Two chairman Strauss Zelnick in a statement.

Any guesses which platform proved harder than expected to develop for?

Edit: Take-Two is predicting over a 200 million dollar hit in this fiscal year as a result and that is a huge deal to their company. Stock prices are taking a bit of a hit as well.

[twothree]

As far as I know all versions of Madden NFL go on sale on the same day this year. Last year the PS3 and Wii versions did not go on sale at the same time as the other versions, since the systems hadn't launched. So in total this year we have console versions on the PS2, PS3, XBOX, XBOX360, GameCube, Wii, and the PSP and DS handheld consoles (also the PC and MAC get a version).

Anyone care to guess in what order the different console versions will be ranked in unit sales for the Month of August?

My best guess after some local debate...

1) PS2
2) XBOX360
3) Wii
4) XBOX
5) PSP
6) PS3
7) DS
8) GameCube

[MikeVic]

1) 360
2) PS2
3) Wii
4) PS3
5) XBOX
6) DS
7) PSP
8) GameCube

[KWhit]

What you quoted likely came from two different people. The first quote was from a member of their message board named "Ben" (who is a member of the staff). The second one doesn't state who wrote it.

Most games have more than one developer. ;)

True. I have no idea if it was the same person or not, but the company line was contradictory, which was really my point (not that it was necessarily the same person).

I mean, the original statement couldn't be more clear.

You won’t see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn’t a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD.

[dawgfan]

I mean, the original statement couldn't be more clear.
Yes, but that doesn't mean the statement was true.

[Eaglesfan27]

If NCAA is any measure (and I think it is) Madden Sales will be something like this:

1) 360
2) PS2
3) Wii (no NCAA for that system, but I think Madden will have strong sales)
4) PS3
5) Xbox
6) PSP
7) DS
8) Gamecube

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm going to assume that these predictions you all are making are for North America only and not worldwide.

FWIW......I'm shocked that anyone is picking the Wii to finish anywhere other than 1st, worldwide or North America.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Estimated worldwide numbers for July are in.......

Wii.........1,010,087
PS3.........374,290
Xbox 360......239,571

[wade moore]

I'm going to assume that these predictions you all are making are for North America only and not worldwide.

FWIW......I'm shocked that anyone is picking the Wii to finish anywhere other than 1st, worldwide or North America.

You realize they're talking about Madden Sales, not Console Sales - right?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You realize they're talking about Madden Sales, not Console Sales - right?

Ah, thanks. That makes MUCH more sense. I had to stay up with the baby the last couple of nights. :)

[wade moore]

Ah, thanks. That makes MUCH more sense. I had to stay up with the baby the last couple of nights. :)
I had a feeling you were talking consoles - I agree someone would have to be insane to think that anything but the Wii will lead.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

September now looks to be another battleground month. Some big titles on the 360 and PS3 for that month. New dates for the PS3 games are listed since they were moved back.

PS3 - Lair (September 4th), Stranglehold (September 11th), Heavenly Sword (September 18th)

Xbox 360 - Halo and PGR4


Additionally, the developers of Lair have come out and commented that the sites that did the reviews two weeks before release were not using a recent version of Lair. They stated that the copy the reviewers reviewed was a demo build. It's about halfway through this podcast.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/podcast.php

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In a surprising move, GTA IV has been delayed until 2008:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176074.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1

This hurts Microsoft quite a bit. The title was being released for both consoles, but the exclusive content was something MS had been showing as a selling point. With the large installed base lead that the 360 currently holds, GTA IV would have sold the vast majority of units between the two systems with a Fall '07 release. Who knows what the market will look like in a year?

As a sidenote, let's assume for the sake of discussion that EF27's comment concerning the PS3 version being the major hang-up is true. The fact that Take Two decided to delay the game, take a financial hit on this year's financials, and not go ahead and release the 360 version early with exclusive content speaks volumes. Take Two obviously did want to irritate Sony by making the game a timed exclusive. My guess is that they wanted to keep the relationship strong because of the incoming PS3 exclusive title that Rockstar is currently developing. Sony likely filled their wallets (despite the fact that the Sony execs are on record as saying they don't buy exclusives ;)) and they need that cash flow from both companies to keep them afloat until the release date on both games. A rift in the relationship with MS or Sony could send them into bankruptcy. They need that exclusive cash badly.

[Ryan S]

Estimated worldwide numbers for July are in.......

I suspect the price cut rumors are hitting 360 sales at least as much, if not more than the hardware failure issues. After all, who is going to buy a 360 today if they think they can get it cheaper in a few weeks.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I suspect the price cut rumors are hitting 360 sales at least as much, if not more than the hardware failure issues. After all, who is going to buy a 360 today if they think they can get it cheaper in a few weeks.

The 360 numbers actually didn't drop a whole lot overall. They had a couple of bad weeks after the warranty announcement, but they stabilized. The major difference was that the PS3 just sold a lot of units after the price cut. The interesting part will be to watch the August numbers to see if Sony can sustain that sales rate over another month, especially if a rumored 360 price cut does come along.

[Eaglesfan27]

This hurts Microsoft quite a bit. The title was being released for both consoles, but the exclusive content was something MS had been showing as a selling point. With the large installed base lead that the 360 currently holds, GTA IV would have sold the vast majority of units between the two systems with a Fall '07 release. Who knows what the market will look like in a year?

As a sidenote, let's assume for the sake of discussion that EF27's comment concerning the PS3 version being the major hang-up is true. The fact that Take Two decided to delay the game, take a financial hit on this year's financials, and not go ahead and release the 360 version early with exclusive content speaks volumes. Take Two obviously did want to irritate Sony by making the game a timed exclusive. My guess is that they wanted to keep the relationship strong because of the incoming PS3 exclusive title that Rockstar is currently developing. Sony likely filled their wallets (despite the fact that the Sony execs are on record as saying they don't buy exclusives ;)) and they need that cash flow from both companies to keep them afloat until the release date on both games. A rift in the relationship with MS or Sony could send them into bankruptcy. They need that exclusive cash badly.


Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but I think Take Two is only delaying the game because they are now contractually obligated to release both versions. If you read all of the comments out there, this is a move that hurts them financially and that they are very disappointed to be doing. It's just a guess, but I really think this is a move dictated by contracts to release simulatanously.

I don't see how this hurts Microsoft that much. and certainly not as much as it hurts Sony. Microsoft has so many other AAA type titles coming out: Bioshock (even if it ends up only being a timed release, I doubt we see a PS3 version this year), Mass Effect, PGR (may be a stretch to call that one an AAA), Halo 3, among others. This hurts Sony much more in my opinion as the fall lineup still isn't that strong. Even if reviewers had old copies (which is a terrible move by Lair's developers), the reviews are out and most people are luke warm on Lair. Heavenly Sword seems to be the only truly anticipated title coming out this year with all of the delays that Sony's games are experiencing.

Edit: I forgot Blue Dragon for the 360 which has already done well in Japan considering the install rate over there. I think that is going to be big when it is released into other markets this month. And, yes, I wouldn't count Stranglehold as I don't think that is going to do much for Sony in terms of being a system seller since it is being released on both platforms and is being released a few weeks earlier on the 360.

[Bee]

September now looks to be another battleground month. Some big titles on the 360 and PS3 for that month. New dates for the PS3 games are listed since they were moved back.

PS3 - Lair (September 4th), Stranglehold (September 11th), Heavenly Sword (September 18th)

Xbox 360 - Halo and PGR4


Additionally, the developers of Lair have come out and commented that the sites that did the reviews two weeks before release were not using a recent version of Lair. They stated that the copy the reviewers reviewed was a demo build. It's about halfway through this podcast.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/podcast.php

Probably I'm just way out of the loop for console games, but I honestly had never heard of any of those ps3 games until this thread. Are they supposed to be big titles like Halo and the racing game?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Probably I'm just way out of the loop for console games, but I honestly had never heard of any of those ps3 games until this thread. Are they supposed to be big titles like Halo and the racing game?

Lair has been heavily hyped (possibly overhyped) as a game for the PS3 to the point where it may not meet 'expectations' even if it is good.

Heavenly Sword is a hack-em-up game that follows in the genre of games like Dynasty Warriors, which had a pretty large following in the US and a huge following in Japan. I think it's fair to say it's the best of the three. The gameplay/graphics even in the demo were pretty stunning.

Stranglehold is a game directed by John Woo. I'm being somewhat unfair in that I listed it as a PS3 game, but it's technically on both consoles. The PS3 version has a hi-def version of John Woo's movie 'Hard Boiled' included on the disc.

It should also be noted that I'm speaking from a worldwide perspective concerning this being a battleground month, not North America. All three of these games should do pretty well in the U.S, but they'll all sell very well in Japan. The Stranglehold game should also sell very well in Europe due to the region-free movie included in the game, which they wouldn't be able to get otherwise.

[gstelmack]

The developer contradicts himself on that. His original quote was this (bolding mine):

Then later (after a ton of sites started up a shitstorm about it), he posted this (italics and bolding his):

And

So he is contradicting himself, or more than likely using semantics to cover his ass. They didn't use DVD size as a factor in their design. Ok. They didn't cut content to fit on the disc. Fine. There is still the likelyhood that post Design phase and prior to Content Development there was a determination made about how many courses and textures the DVD could hold and that affected the ultimate end product.

The design decision was "variable time of day". The implementation switched from "lots of textures" to "lighting". This is what dawgfan was getting at earlier: no design decision changed, they just changed the implementation. They had an implementation that used way too many textures, and they figured out a different way of doing it.

You can argue that this isn't really "time of day" anymore, but what you got is the same end result: variable lighting conditions on each track. Probably even more lighting conditions are available now than would have been before.

We make these kind of decisions each and every day. Something is too slow, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar end result. Something takes too long to load, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. Something takes too long to build, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' DAY.

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

N'Gai Croal comments on GTA IV delay. Basically says that Rockstar is using the PS3 version as a cover for the fact that they couldn't get their stuff together to get the 360 version done either........

If Rockstar could have completed the 360 version in time for its previously scheduled October release, it would have done so. Why? Because Take-Two definitely needs the revenue from what is by far its biggest franchise, and Microsoft desperately wanted to convert PlayStation 2 fans to Xbox 360 aficionados.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise us if Rockstar and Take-Two had already all-but-delayed the PS3 version to triage the Xbox 360 version for this holiday, only to have their hands forced when, at yesterday's product review, it became clear to both sides that even the 360 version could not be completed this year to Rockstar's exacting standards.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.

WTF?????? Where did I say that? He comment that I knew nothing about the industry when I have actually done work in it. I also stated that my experience in the industry didn't make me any smarter than anyone else here. Geez.

[gstelmack]

WTF?????? Where did I say that? He comment that I knew nothing about the industry when I have actually done work in it. I also stated that my experience in the industry didn't make me any smarter than anyone else here. Geez.

You attempted to defend your misunderstanding of a design decision (which you were using to drive home the point that not having HD discs is a big deal to 360 developers) by claiming industry experience. Despite your protestations that it does not make you smarter than anyone else here, you continue to post as if you know what's going on with developers and what they are REALLY saying or doing in some particular quote.

Dawgfan and I (who are both in the industry) have told you several times in these threads that disc size is only important to a small segment of game developers (mostly because it's hard to create that much content in the first place), and you continually trot out any remotely-related comment by a developer to "prove" that 360 development is hard because it only has a normal DVD in it. Then you pick on that developer when he tries to explain the difference between a design decision and an implementation decision.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You attempted to defend your misunderstanding of a design decision (which you were using to drive home the point that not having HD discs is a big deal to 360 developers) by claiming industry experience. Despite your protestations that it does not make you smarter than anyone else here, you continue to post as if you know what's going on with developers and what they are REALLY saying or doing in some particular quote.

Dawgfan and I (who are both in the industry) have told you several times in these threads that disc size is only important to a small segment of game developers (mostly because it's hard to create that much content in the first place), and you continually trot out any remotely-related comment by a developer to "prove" that 360 development is hard because it only has a normal DVD in it. Then you pick on that developer when he tries to explain the difference between a design decision and an implementation decision.

I understand that you and dawgfan are both developers. I also have never claimed any insider knowledge. That point is simply inaccurate. My point was that I've never attacked you personally as a poster just because I disagreed with your post. Refute the point, don't attack the poster. You could very well be 100% right. That's why it's called a discussion. I still totally disagree with your opinion on this topic. There's no question in my mind that they would have liked to have day/night on all tracks.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Stranglehold by John Woo will be the most expensive game ever made at just over $30 million. Wonder how much Woo is charging for his services????

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27297

Midway investing $30 million in Stranglehold
Matt Martin 09:17 (BST) 03/08/2007
Euro MD claims game will be biggest seller this Christmas

Midway's European MD Martin Spiess has told GamesIndustry.biz the publisher is investing USD 30 million in upcoming action game Stranglehold.

Spiess claims the new IP could be the most expensive next-generation game in development, but is confident that come the September release the massive investment will pay off, with retail and consumers already very positive about the title.

"[Stranglehold cost] around USD 30 million, so it's possibly the most expensive next-generation game in development to date," said Spiess, in an interview to be published next week.

"The early indications from retail and the consumers are there, so it is going to pay off."

"In order to recoup development money you obviously have to sell a lot of units, but what we're seeing to date is that we will sell those units. Stranglehold will be the top selling title this Christmas," claimed Spiess.

The title has been developed in collaboration with Hollywood director John Woo and action icon Chow Yun-Fat. Pitched as a sequel to the 1992 movie Hard Boiled, the limited edition PlayStation 3 version of the game will include the original film on the Blu-ray disc.

And Spiess is confident that Stranglehold will offer a new experience for next-gen machines, rather than the equivalent of a PC game tweaked for the home console market.

"From a playability standpoint and a technology standpoint, we're delivering something which has not been done before - true next-gen for the first time, rather than just having some PC game ported onto next-gen with higher resolution graphics," he said.

[MikeVic]

How much do other games cost to make? I have no relative point to compare 30Million to, but it seems like a large amount.

[KWhit]

So what is supposed to make that game so great?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So what is supposed to make that game so great?

The game is a mix between an immersive movie experience and Max Payne-like gameplay is my understanding. $30M is a lot to spend on game development. My thought is that this game is like one of those summer movie blockbusters, where they have spent so much money that a success would be to break even. Obviously spending a ton of money doesn't guarantee a good game. If it doesn't do well, they're going to have a whole lotta nothing to show for it.

Part of me wants it to succeed because we want developers spending a lot of assets to develop big titles for the next-gen systems. The other part of me thinks that success may encourage lavish spending and more expensive games (or games that take longer to drop in price).

[stevew]

Isn't a profit almost unthinkable. The installed user base on the PS3 is something like, what, 5million. I'm not sure exactly what the studio rip per title is, but if it's say 50%, they'd have to penetrate 20% of the consoles just to get to the break even point.

[Eaglesfan27]

Isn't a profit almost unthinkable. The installed user base on the PS3 is something like, what, 5million. I'm not sure exactly what the studio rip per title is, but if it's say 50%, they'd have to penetrate 20% of the consoles just to get to the break even point.

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:

http://www.vgchartz.com/images/360logo.png
0.42M Japan (http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php#hard)
6.61M America (http://www.vgchartz.com/aweekly.php#hard)
3.24M Others (http://www.vgchartz.com/eweekly.php)
10.27M
<CENTER>42.5%</CENTER>

http://www.vgchartz.com/images/wiilogo.png
3.26M Japan (http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php#hard)
3.97M America (http://www.vgchartz.com/aweekly.php#hard)
2.65M Others (http://www.vgchartz.com/eweekly.php)
9.88M
<CENTER>40.9%</CENTER>


http://www.vgchartz.com/images/ps3logo.png
1.07M Japan (http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php#hard)
1.74M America (http://www.vgchartz.com/aweekly.php#hard)
1.20M Others (http://www.vgchartz.com/eweekly.php)
4.01M
<CENTER>16.6%</CENTER>


http://www.vgchartz.com/images/dslogo.png
18.61M Japan (http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php#hard)
13.73M America (http://www.vgchartz.com/aweekly.php#hard)
14.11M Others (http://www.vgchartz.com/eweekly.php)
46.45M
<CENTER>67.2%</CENTER>


http://www.vgchartz.com/images/psplogo.png
5.85M Japan (http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php#hard)
8.86M America (http://www.vgchartz.com/aweekly.php#hard)
7.95M Others (http://www.vgchartz.com/eweekly.php)
22.66M
<CENTER>32.8%</CENTER>

[gstelmack]

I understand that you and dawgfan are both developers. I also have never claimed any insider knowledge. That point is simply inaccurate. My point was that I've never attacked you personally as a poster just because I disagreed with your post. Refute the point, don't attack the poster. You could very well be 100% right. That's why it's called a discussion. I still totally disagree with your opinion on this topic. There's no question in my mind that they would have liked to have day/night on all tracks.

The problem is that conversations (such as the disc one) go like:

You: Look! Developers hate the 360 disc size limitations!
Us: No they don't, and here's why.
You: Look! He's backtracking! Just trying to protect Microsoft!
Us: No he isn't, and here's why.
You: Yes he is!

At this point I have to ask where you are getting your information from. If you consider that a personal attack, fine, but you keep posting things and finding "interesting" interpretations of them, and I'm not sure where you keep getting these. Sony says "we will break even" and you say "price cut!", developer says "this did not a limit our design" and you say "yes it did!". The only question I've got left is "How do you figure?", especially when you question what dawgfan and I are trying to say. I know what the developer is trying to say, but you keep twisting his words to suit your point.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:

I'm not even sure that $30M number includes marketing costs. I noticed the other day that the Midway CEO mentioned that he was concerned with PS3 sales. It almost seemed like he was laying the groundwork to blame the PS3's slow sales if this game tanks. Assuming a profit of $20/game, this game would have to sell 1.5M units on the PS3 and 360 to break even. That's a pretty daunting task to make any money with only 15M units combined worldwide.

FWIW, most generally agree that the VGChartz have a variance of 10-15% on their estimations. It's certainly a good bellweather estimate, but probably not the most accurate. They do revise their monthly totals after the NPD number come out, so their archived totals are a very good resource for historical data.

[Eaglesfan27]

You doesn't equal most. I haven't seen any other unbiased opinions from people who are in the business that VGChartz has that large of a variance on their estimations. It certainly has some, but that is inherent in sampling methods. Seems better than most of the numbers which are inflated by companies that have an active interest in slanting things.

[Big Fo]

Top selling title at Christmas :D

Halo 3
Madden 08
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Call of Duty 4

There's probably more that are likely to outsell Stranglehold.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You doesn't equal most. I haven't seen any other unbiased opinions from people who are in the business that VGChartz has that large of a variance on their estimations. It certainly has some, but that is inherent in sampling methods. Seems better than most of the numbers which are inflated by companies that have an active interest in slanting things.

Check the VG charts numbers from the end of the month and then compare them to the NPD numbers. You'll find that the numbers can be off quite a bit at times. Perhaps I should clarify that the 10-15% variance is in the current numbers only. As I said, their historical numbers are good because they retroactively correct the numbers later. They're not inaccurate, they just have to be taken with a grain of salt. You'll notice that when I post the numbers from VG in these threads, I make sure to state that they are estimated numbers.

Bill Harris, N'Gai Croal, Geoff Knightly and Bill Abner are just a few of the people that refuse to use VGCharts numbers other than their historical data.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Top selling title at Christmas :D

Halo 3
Madden 08
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Call of Duty 4

There's probably more that are likely to outsell Stranglehold.

More importantly, none of those games have an expense budget even close to $30M. Madden, Halo 3 and COD4 all have much smaller budgets because they aren't reinventing the wheel in the sequels. The Wii titles obviously have a much smaller expense budget as well due to the ease of coding in that system with well-known techniques already available to them.

[Bee]

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:


What's interesting to me is that even with the big bump the PS3 got with the price cut last month and the negative hits that MS took with the reliability issues and pending price cut, it would take Sony about 40 months of similar sales rates to catch up. Sony really needs to do something drastic IMO to get back into the race.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What's interesting to me is that even with the big bump the PS3 got with the price cut last month and the negative hits that MS took with the reliability issues and pending price cut, it would take Sony about 40 months of similar sales rates to catch up. Sony really needs to do something drastic IMO to get back into the race.

Agreed. Konami has leaked that MGS4 looks to be a March 2008 release. That should provide a large console boost, especially in Japan. But even assuming a worldwide boost of 2M units over a month's time, they'd still have more work in front of them. There HAS to be a price cut if Sony plans on meeting that 10M units in 9 monts goal. This month they sold somewhere between 350-400K units. That's not even close to enough to meet their goal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Good interview of Mark Rein over at Joystiq. Lots of info about a wide variety of topics......

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/03/joystiq-interviews-unreal-tournament-3s-mark-rein/

[Bee]

Yep, and even taking into account the various bumps Sony will get with various releases, you still have to take into account Microsoft doing a price cut and having some big titles coming up that should bump their sales. It's going to take something seriously big for Sony to catchup IMO.

[spleen1015]

Yep, and even taking into account the various bumps Sony will get with various releases, you still have to take into account Microsoft doing a price cut and having some big titles coming up that should bump their sales. It's going to take something seriously big for Sony to catchup IMO.

A Dragon-riding dogfighting game kind of like Rogue Squadron is going to get it done!

[Bee]

A Dragon-riding dogfighting game kind of like Rogue Squadron is going to get it done!

Would a dogfighting game have Michael Vick on the cover?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Would a dogfighting game have Michael Vick on the cover?

BOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! *****tomatoes thrown*****

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=258293

[Eaglesfan27]

Analysts also believe that the PS3 Port is to blame for GTA 4's delay:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14971


Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay

Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure.

"We think it is likely," said Pachter, "that the Rockstar team had difficulty in building an exceptionally complicated game for the PS3, and failed to recognize how far away from completion the game truly was until recently."

"We think it is also likely that Take-Two had a contractual commitment to Sony that it would not favor competitor Microsoft by launching the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV prior to launching the PS3 version," he continued, "and believe that any delay of the PS3 version necessitated a delay of the Xbox 360 version."

The delay has caused somewhat of a valuation quandary for Pachter, as he adds "we are unprepared to predict what Take-Two management can truly deliver until we see some positive results."

"We think that new management is doing many things right," he says, "but believe that some structural obstacles remain. The company has begun an initiative to improve the green light process for new projects, but given the delays of Manhunt and GTA, its process for monitoring projects under development appears to be a failure."

Pachter concludes, "Until we see evidence of better controls over work in process and greater diligence in project selection, we are not confident that the company will gain market share in future years."<!-- / message -->

[bob]

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=258293

Any clue the price on this game - outside of the batting / pitching faceoff, it looks a lot like RBI baseball on the NES.

[stevew]

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=258293

Badass. I've wanted to play the "big head" baseball for awhile, but am too lazy to go to the trouble of importing it. Can't wait for this title.

[dawgfan]

We make these kind of decisions each and every day. Something is too slow, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar end result. Something takes too long to load, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. Something takes too long to build, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' DAY.

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.
Yep, you nailed it.

[dawgfan]

Stranglehold is a game directed by John Woo. I'm being somewhat unfair in that I listed it as a PS3 game, but it's technically on both consoles. The PS3 version has a hi-def version of John Woo's movie 'Hard Boiled' included on the disc.
It's not just "technically" on both consoles, it's had more development time on the 360. It uses the Unreal 3 engine, and 360 dev kits have been available for much longer than PS3 dev kits.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Analysts also believe that the PS3 Port is to blame for GTA 4's delay:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14971


Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay

Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure.

"We think it is likely," said Pachter, "that the Rockstar team had difficulty in building an exceptionally complicated game for the PS3, and failed to recognize how far away from completion the game truly was until recently."

"We think it is also likely that Take-Two had a contractual commitment to Sony that it would not favor competitor Microsoft by launching the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV prior to launching the PS3 version," he continued, "and believe that any delay of the PS3 version necessitated a delay of the Xbox 360 version."

The delay has caused somewhat of a valuation quandary for Pachter, as he adds "we are unprepared to predict what Take-Two management can truly deliver until we see some positive results."

"We think that new management is doing many things right," he says, "but believe that some structural obstacles remain. The company has begun an initiative to improve the green light process for new projects, but given the delays of Manhunt and GTA, its process for monitoring projects under development appears to be a failure."

Pachter concludes, "Until we see evidence of better controls over work in process and greater diligence in project selection, we are not confident that the company will gain market share in future years."<!-- / message -->

Awful lot of 'we think it is likely' statements. Doesn't exactly sound like very firm information. I don't think there's any question that the PS3 game wasn't ready. But judging from even the videos that were running on the 360 hardware and the comments from Croal who said he spoke with 'sources' (God knows what that means), it appears that the 360 version was just as unimpressive in yesterday's session. Perhaps it was more impressive than the PS3 version at this stage, but that may not be saying much.

[dawgfan]

More importantly, none of those games have an expense budget even close to $30M. Madden, Halo 3 and COD4 all have much smaller budgets because they aren't reinventing the wheel in the sequels.
Not necessarily true - when you have sequels on a new platform, developers usually re-write their game engine to take advantage of the new hardware and the art & audio teams usually upgrade their content. I don't know if Bungie has spent $30M on Halo 3, but I'd bet they've spent a lot of time re-writing their game engine for the 360 and the art and audio departments have spent a lot of time upgrading their content, in addition to any new game features requiring new code and content. Halo 3 isn't a simple sequel - it's a next-gen continuation of an existing franchise, so the costs are likely closer to development of a new IP than to a sequel on the same platform.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not necessarily true - when you have sequels on a new platform, developers usually re-write their game engine to take advantage of the new hardware and the art & audio teams usually upgrade their content. I don't know if Bungie has spent $30M on Halo 3, but I'd bet they've spent a lot of time re-writing their game engine for the 360 and the art and audio departments have spent a lot of time upgrading their content, in addition to any new game features requiring new code and content. Halo 3 isn't a simple sequel - it's a next-gen continuation of an existing franchise, so the costs are likely closer to development of a new IP than to a sequel on the same platform.

Good point. Madden and COD are different because they already have previous versions on the next-gen consoles.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Sony: GTA IV Won’t "Make or Break" PS3


Sony Computer Entertainment America has told Next-Gen that it wants Grand Theft Auto IV to release soon, but added that PS3 isn’t reliant on one hit game. SCEA PR boss Dave Karraker said in an e-mail regarding the delay of GTA IV, “Naturally, all of the hardware manufacturers would love to have Grand Theft Auto IV released as soon as possible, but this is such an important franchise we support Take-Two in taking as much time as they need to make a great game.

“No single game makes or breaks any PlayStation platform. Rather than rely on one hit game, we prefer to offer consumers a wide choice in software, appealing to a broader audience beyond just the hardcore gamer,” he said.

Karraker noted that between now and the holidays, SCEA alone is publishing 10 exclusive games on PS3 in North America. One-hundred-twenty are in the pipeline for this fiscal year.

The delay of GTA IV isn’t only a negative for Take-Two in the short term, but also console manufacturers like Sony and Microsoft, as GTA IV was expected to be a system-mover during the busy holiday season.

It was also one of the prime factors in Microsoft’s self-professed “greatest holiday lineup in history,” although Halo 3 will capably fill the void on Xbox 360 along with other big titles.

[MikeVic]

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Yeah... just the norm right now lol.

[Eaglesfan27]

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Maybe because it was such a big title that they were relying on for 2007. Also, I don't know about that preview of GTA IV on the 360 that you are talking about, but most previews have said that it was coming along very well on the 360. Check out gamespot or any of the big preview/review sites. All of the footage that has been shown has been from the 360, which is also an indicator that version has been in development for a longer period of time and was much further along.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Maybe because it was such a big title that they relying on. Also, I don't know about that preview of GTA IV on the 360 that you are talking about, but most previews have said that it was coming along very well on the 360. Check out gamespot or any of the big preview/review sites. All of the footage that has been shown has been from the 360, which is also an indicator that version has been in development for a longer period of time and was much further along.

There were framerate issues in the 360 preview builds, but those concerns were written off as an early build. I have no doubt we'll never know for sure because Take Two, MS and Sony are all going to blame each other if you ask them point blank.

I agree with the assessment on the Sony comment. I'm not sure it was a make or break title for them as I honestly believe it's more important for the 360, but the way the comments were made indicate some kind of frustration while trying to say "Nothing to see here! Nothing to see here!"

[Eaglesfan27]

Can you give any rational explanation how this was more important for the 360. The 360 has many more huge titles coming out in 07 while Sony has hardly any and was really counting on GTA 4 to help combat the Halo crush that is coming (not to mention all of the aforementioned 360 exclusives coming in the upcoming 3 months.)

[gstelmack]

There were framerate issues in the 360 preview builds, but those concerns were written off as an early build.

I have yet to work on a non-mission pack that didn't have "framerate issues" up until close to release. As long as it runs fast enough for testing, optimization is often done later, mostly because you need to find out WHAT needs optimizing and how all of those features inter-relate.

Heck, especially if you are streaming a lot just spending some time optimizing the DVD layout can help, and you don't want to do that until your content is mostly settled down.

[dawgfan]

Interesting statement considering that the GTA franchise has sold upwards of 44 million copies on the PS2 and claims the top-selling and 3 of the top 4 selling games on the platform.

[dawgfan]

I have yet to work on a non-mission pack that didn't have "framerate issues" up until close to release. As long as it runs fast enough for testing, optimization is often done later, mostly because you need to find out WHAT needs optimizing and how all of those features inter-relate.

Heck, especially if you are streaming a lot just spending some time optimizing the DVD layout can help, and you don't want to do that until your content is mostly settled down.
Yep - framerate is usually one of the very last things to get settled in a game. Usually you're fighting a constant battle of adding content and code and then figuring out how to optimize it to improve framerate. There is often a tradeoff between framerate and volume of content as well; generally speaking, content is limited by RAM (the amount of data that can be stored on the system at any one time), and sometimes solutions to reduce the RAM footprint shift the burden to the CPU which decreases framerate.

Because developers are almost always attempting to push the limits of the hardware, framerate is something that almost always is in flux until the very end of development.

[Daimyo]

I'm curious what video games Mizzou B-ball fan has actually worked on since he claimed earlier he had experience in that area....

[sterlingice]

Microsoft has so many other AAA type titles coming out: Bioshock (even if it ends up only being a timed release, I doubt we see a PS3 version this year), Mass Effect, PGR (may be a stretch to call that one an AAA), Halo 3, among others.

I think this is my second time mentioning it, but gotta ask "what would you define at AAA titles?" In my mind, there are maybe 5 a generation, the ones that really move consoles. Lots of games move some consoles- like Blue Dragon will get some RPG people but it's definitely not going to move 1M people just to buy the game. I see one up there on that list, personally.

SI

[gstelmack]

I think this is my second time mentioning it, but gotta ask "what would you define at AAA titles?" In my mind, there are maybe 5 a generation, the ones that really move consoles. Lots of games move some consoles- like Blue Dragon will get some RPG people but it's definitely not going to move 1M people just to buy the game. I see one up there on that list, personally.

Well, until a title actually ships and sells, anything with a decent budget is AAA ;)

Technically, anything that sells well is AAA. It can be complete dreck, but still be AAA.

Not sure where they draw the line on "AAA", but I'm pretty sure anything that sells a million copies is "AAA", and that's more than 5 per generation.

[SackAttack]

I personally distinguish between system-sellers and AAA.

but that's maybe coming from a baseball mindset where AAA is very good, but a step below the big-time. A system-seller, to me, is the big-time. AAA is a game that can make that step, but won't necessarily establish.

[Eaglesfan27]

Well, until a title actually ships and sells, anything with a decent budget is AAA ;)

Technically, anything that sells well is AAA. It can be complete dreck, but still be AAA.

Not sure where they draw the line on "AAA", but I'm pretty sure anything that sells a million copies is "AAA", and that's more than 5 per generation.

I'd agree with anything that sells more than a million as a good definition of an AAA title and I'll be shocked if Mass Effect doesn't do that. Halo 3 obviously will. There is a lot of buzz about Mass Effect, and it looks like it is going to be another amazing Bioware RPG.

[Big Fo]

I didn't know it was just a sales thing, I thought AAA had something to do with the quality as well. Mario Party 8 for example has passed a million but I wouldn't think of it as a AAA title, it's just a game that sold well.

[gstelmack]

I didn't know it was just a sales thing, I thought AAA had something to do with the quality as well. Mario Party 8 for example has passed a million but I wouldn't think of it as a AAA title, it's just a game that sold well.

"AAA" is a retail / marketing term that has made its way into popular discussion. To retail / marketing folks, sales are it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Can you give any rational explanation how this was more important for the 360. The 360 has many more huge titles coming out in 07 while Sony has hardly any and was really counting on GTA 4 to help combat the Halo crush that is coming (not to mention all of the aforementioned 360 exclusives coming in the upcoming 3 months.)

If they release now, there a pretty good likelihood that most people are going to buy the 360 version simply because there are more 360's by a wide margin. If (and that's a huge if) Sony can meet it's goal of 10.29M units by end of March '08, there's going to be a lot of people who have both consoles in their home who might consider buying it for the PS3 rather than the 360, something they never would have considered now because they only have a 360. It was extremely important to get GTA IV out for the 360 as soon as possible while they have a major advantage and can expand on it. The PS3's going to have a lot more ammo to use when the release occurs, further dividing the entertainment dollars of gamers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

id Software has announced that the upcoming first person shooter, Rage, will be released on the 360 with two DVD's, while the PS3 version will only require 1 disk.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176188.html

QuakeCon 07: id Rage-ing on PC, Mac, 360, PS3
Doom-maker crafting all-new driving-shooting actioner set in open-world, post-apocalyptic wasteland; Activision to publish with a T-for-Teen rating in mind.
By Tor Thorsen, Jason Ocampo, GameSpot
Posted Aug 3, 2007 5:00 pm PT

In June at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC), id Software cofounder and chief technical officer John Carmack took the stage alongside Apple CEO Steve Jobs to show off a technology demo. Cryptically titled "id Tech 5," the clip showed a scene reminiscent of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. Dune buggies raced through a canyon dotted by what looked like post-apocalyptic settlements, and then the camera zoomed inside a hut for a first-person conversation with a merchant straight out of Bartertown.

At the WWDC, Carmack promised to have the same demo--which features over 20GB of texture information--running in real time on the PC, Macintosh, Xbox 360, and PlayStation 3 at the E3 Media & Business Summit in July. However, by the time the scaled-down expo was done, there was no sign of the demonstration anywhere.

Today, though, id Tech 5 surfaced. Behind closed doors at QuakeCon 2007 in Dallas, id CEO Todd Hollenshead revealed the demo was actually the first look at Rage, an all-new IP. As mentioned at WWDC, the game is in simultaneous development for the PC, Mac, PS3, and 360, and will use the second generation of id's "Megatexture" technology. The game will be come on a single Blu-ray disc for PS3 owners, while all other versions will require two DVDs.

Speaking to a small collection of game journalists, Hollenshead explained that Rage was a deliberate departure from the corridor shooters that made id famous. Its gameplay will be "60 percent shooting and 40 percent driving" between villages in a postapocalyptic wasteland. Its setting will be a far future which has seen civilization decimated after a comet smashes into the Earth. Players will aid the villages' inhabitants in fighting both an oppressive regime and various mutants and monsters roaming the wasteland.

According to Rage lead designer Tim Willits, the game's title has a threefold meaning. "You're fighting against a post-apocalyptic goverment, so you're raging against the machine," he said. "Then there's driving combat, so there's road rage." Willits also said that "you can't spell garage without 'rage,'" and then revealed the game will have shops where players can extensively customize their vehicles.

Rage will have open-world elements, allowing players to exit their vehicles and explore caves and other parts of the landscape. The game will feature a single-player campaign that will clock in around 20 hours, but will allow individual missions to be played in co-op mode. No other multiplayer details were announced.

In another major departure from the infamously gory Doom and Quake games, id is developing rage with a T-for-Teen rating in mind. As with all games from the famously reclusive studio, it will ship "when it's done" and will be published by Activision.

During a presentation at the QuakeCon keynote, Carmack quashed hopes of a Wii version of the game, saying that the id Tech 5 engine could not be ported to Nintendo's latest system. Nintendo fans needn't be too crestfallen, however, as Carmack told reporters earlier in the day he'd be happy to make Wii games, and has toyed with the idea of making a Quake Arena-themed game for the DS. There's nothing official about such a project yet, but Carmack said he likes the machine's Wi-Fi and game-sharing capabilities.

Carmack also described his "inverted" approach to developing new intellectual properties to reporters, saying id started Orcs and Elves on a cell phone, and then moved it up to the DS. If it works there, Carmack said he'd like to bring it to the Wii as well. Such an approach to building new properties makes sense, Carmack said, because the initial investment put at risk is much smaller.

[spleen1015]

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

[Eaglesfan27]

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

Nor do I. As far as GTA IV, I'm sure the 360 still will sell better than the PS3 version, since it will have exclusive content and even in 6-8 months, there are going to be many more 360's in the market than PS3's. The PS3 isn't going to even come close to closing the gap in 6-8 months. Particularly since, the 360 is about to have the 65nm chips out widely (and a 45nm chip is being worked on) which will improve reliability. Between that and the price drop, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft maintains its huge lead on the number of PS3's.

[oykib]

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=258293

Damn you, Mizzou! Now I have to change my shorts!

[Eaglesfan27]

Reading the previews, it sounds like there will be 12 different modes including an RPG mode where you start in college and work your way towards the majors. That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a Wii.

[MJ4H]

That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a baseball game.

[Calis]

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

Furthermore, do people really care about a game from iD anymore? Sure they have great tech demos, but it's been a LONG time since they've released a good game.

[gstelmack]

Furthermore, do people really care about a game from iD anymore? Sure they have great tech demos, but it's been a LONG time since they've released a good game.

And when you have a tech demo that is all about showing off how many textures you can stream, the whole POINT is to use as many discs as possible...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

And when you have a tech demo that is all about showing off how many textures you can stream, the whole POINT is to use as many discs as possible...

Just to be clear, that's 2 discs on release, not for a demo. The question was asked of the developer when it was noticed they had 2 discs.

I made a post earlier in this thread saying if I was a 360 owner, I would prefer that they move to multiple discs on games and stop imposing the artificial one-disc ceiling. It seems to be this level of denial that was unneeded up until now. That's the part that I find interesting. It seems to be a PR battle by the two companies. The only reason it's a big issue is because MS continues to deny that more space than one disc will be needed during the life of this console. I tend to agree with spleen that it doesn't really matter one way or another. Yet the simple suggestion that it may occur produced a maelstrom in this thread. Interesting stuff.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Reading the previews, it sounds like there will be 12 different modes including an RPG mode where you start in college and work your way towards the majors. That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a Wii.

I'm extremely excited about this game. I haven't bought any games since I first purchased the Wii with the Zelda game. Really have wanted another game to justify the Wii purchase.

[spleen1015]

I'm extremely excited about this game. I haven't bought any games since I first purchased the Wii with the Zelda game. Really have wanted another game to justify the Wii purchase.

Metroid Prime 3 should be a must buy for Wii owners. If you like Halo, you should like Metroid more, IMO.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Renew the MGS to 360 rumors.....HMV taking pre-orders for a fall '08 release, 6 months after PS3 release.......

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/simpleSearch.do?primaryID=-1&simpleSearchString=metal+gear+solid+4&pGroupID=-1&searchUID=

[Eaglesfan27]

Renew the MGS to 360 rumors.....HMV taking pre-orders for a fall '08 release, 6 months after PS3 release.......

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/simpleSearch.do?primaryID=-1&simpleSearchString=metal+gear+solid+4&pGroupID=-1&searchUID=


I never really thought they were put to bed. I'm still not convinced FF XIII is going to remain a PS3 exclusive either. Sony needs its exclusive partners to definitively say they aren't releasing their game on any other platform or at least say they aren't releasing on the 360. Until they do that, it will hurt sales.

[gstelmack]

Just to be clear, that's 2 discs on release, not for a demo. The question was asked of the developer when it was noticed they had 2 discs.

Id's new game will basically be a (very fun) tech demo. Look how they are pushing the tech. The tech is all about number of textures, and thus there is every reason in the world for them to ship on as many discs as possible to show off their massive texture tech.

I made a post earlier in this thread saying if I was a 360 owner, I would prefer that they move to multiple discs on games and stop imposing the artificial one-disc ceiling. It seems to be this level of denial that was unneeded up until now. That's the part that I find interesting. It seems to be a PR battle by the two companies. The only reason it's a big issue is because MS continues to deny that more space than one disc will be needed during the life of this console. I tend to agree with spleen that it doesn't really matter one way or another. Yet the simple suggestion that it may occur produced a maelstrom in this thread. Interesting stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean. I am unaware of any restriction from Microsoft that limits devs to one disc. The statements you are talking about are just answering the "why don't you have an HD DVD in the console". Shipping on more than one disc means:

- Increased manufacturing costs
- Inconvenience to the user having to switch discs
- Can stuff more content on

For #3 to outweigh the first 2, you have to have more content in the first place, a point dawgfan and I have repeatedly stated is not as prevalent as you try to make it out to be. Putting a bigger disc in would have ZERO impact on the VAST majority of games out there. In the PGR case, they decided that they had an alternative method to provide the lighting they wanted that didn't introduce 1 & 2. You can disagree with their decision all day long, but since you haven't actually played the game in the before and after case, you have no clue whether this was a big hit or not. The developer has and said it wasn't a big deal.

The 512MB memory limit is far more restrictive (and not all THAT restrictive) on a developer than the size of the DVD drive. And I'll point out that the PS3 has the EXACT same limit.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The 512MB memory limit is far more restrictive (and not all THAT restrictive) on a developer than the size of the DVD drive. And I'll point out that the PS3 has the EXACT same limit.

Totally agree with that. But I'm not sure why the comparison is there. You seemed to throw in that comment as a justification because the oversight wasn't as bad. The two situations are not mutually exclusive. The RAM situation on the PS3 was a dumb design move, no question. But that doesn't exclude the fact that the restrictive size of the DVD on the 360 is going to be a problem as well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

EF27,

Here's an opinion that basically said the same thing as I did in regard to why the move back of GTA IV was a worse hit to the 360 than the PS3.

GTA IV: Killing the Xbox 360, Boosting the PlayStation 3

08/05/07


For as much flak as Peter Moore got while leading the Xbox 360 team, it's hard to deny that his penchant for adorning his arms gave gamers a couple of very memorable moments. I mean, before Peter Moore's E3 2005 stunt, had you ever seen another executive get a (fake) tattoo for a key franchise (Halo)? And then, not to be outdone, walk into a second E3 with another (fake) tattoo for another franchise (GTA IV)? Seriously, Moore was Microsoft's biggest publicity whore, and he did a dang fine job of it.

But beneath all his excitement lay a few key lessons about Microsoft. For one, the company understood that without a killer exclusive like Halo, the Xbox brand simply wasn't strong enough to justify its R&D expense. That understanding is a key reason that before Knights of the Old Republic came along, the Xbox was playfully known as "a Halo adaptor for your TV." With Xbox 360, Microsoft needed to march onto its next achievement: stealing the "exclusiveness" of the Grand Theft Auto series from Sony. So when Moore strode on stage at E3 2006 with a GTA IV tattoo and announced that Rockstar's game would release "day and date" with the PlayStation 3 version, he was basically bragging like Bush when he said "mission accomplished."

But not so fast, Microsoft. Last week Rockstar delayed GTA IV until at least February 2008, a move that quite literally could have stolen every single ounce of leverage you hoped to have. In fact, that announcement could have single-handedly put your very-real competitors, Sony and the PlayStation 3, in the driver's seat in the GTA IV race, for three reasons.

First off, Microsoft paid $50 million for exclusive downloadable episodes for GTA IV, an unprecedented amount for content that the company presumably hoped would release during the holidays and drive Xbox 360 sales. Well, now Microsoft has not only dropped $50 million for yet-to-be-determined content, but the company has lost all hope of that content boosting holiday sales, because GTA IV won't even be in stores until late Q1 or early Q2 next year.

Secondly, with the delay of GTA IV until after the holidays, Sony has more time to boost its PS3 install base, which, depending on sales, could entice Rockstar to create exclusive downloadable content for that system as well. So, not only does the lack of holiday-released episodes mean Microsoft could fail to widen its install-base gap, but the company could actually see Sony close that gap once GTA IV comes out, because after the holidays Sony could have the critical mass to justify special episodes for the PS3.

Third (and most speculative), Sony could see a PS3 sales boost because Microsoft is shooting its first-party wad early. Rumors earlier this year said Microsoft strategically chose to release Halo 3 in September to appease Rockstar and not give GTA IV any direct competition on the Xbox 360's sales charts. November has been Bungie's sweet spot for Halo release dates, so September always seemed early; with this GTA IV rumor as context, the Halo 3 release date made much more sense. But with GTA IV now delayed, Halo 3 (if it doesn't end up being delayed) will release two months before the holiday shopping season really kicks off, thereby enabling Sony to come out of the Turkey-Day gates with a stellar first-party lineup.

To say GTA IV drives console sales is akin to saying B.B. King can play the guitar. So with Microsoft banking so much on those exclusive episodes, not to mention GTA IV releasing at a time when the Xbox 360 holds an install-base lead over the PlayStation 3, Rockstar's announcement couldn't have been any worse. Does the delay favor Sony and its PlayStation 3? Not necessarily. But it surely doesn't do anything but harm to Microsoft's holiday-release strategy.

If Peter Moore were still at Microsoft, I have a sneaking suspicion he'd be seeking out a tattoo-removal specialist. Because today, that enthusiastic showing two E3s ago that his "mission" was "accomplished" now looks like a 20-something inking the name of a one-night-stand on his bicep.

-- Jonas Allen

[gstelmack]

Totally agree with that. But I'm not sure why the comparison is there. You seemed to throw in that comment as a justification because the oversight wasn't as bad. The two situations are not mutually exclusive. The RAM situation on the PS3 was a dumb design move, no question. But that doesn't exclude the fact that the restrictive size of the DVD on the 360 is going to be a problem as well.

:confused:

My point was that developers spend far more time trying to figure out how to fit their game into 512MB than they do trying to figure out how to fit onto a DVD, but no one screams about it. You keep harping on the DVD size DESPITE constant statements from active developers that for the VAST MAJORITY OF GAMES, IT HAS ZERO IMPACT. Do I need to say it any louder? Can you understand this yet?

The point is that you don't hear about the memory issue because it's not THAT huge a deal, and the DVD issue is even more minor, yet you keep sounding the death knell for the 360 because of DVD size. Heck, the memory issue is more likely to HELP the DVD size as developers turn more and more to procedural textures and away from handcrafted ones.

You are creating a problem where one only exists for a tiny minority of developers. And even the one you tried to use as an example has said it wasn't that big a deal. And yet you continue to belabor the point.

This is like saying PC gaming was going to die back in the early '90s because a CD was not big enough for all the video-based games that were coming out.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

:confused:

My point was that developers spend far more time trying to figure out how to fit their game into 512MB than they do trying to figure out how to fit onto a DVD, but no one screams about it. You keep harping on the DVD size DESPITE constant statements from active developers that for the VAST MAJORITY OF GAMES, IT HAS ZERO IMPACT. Do I need to say it any louder? Can you understand this yet?

The point is that you don't hear about the memory issue because it's not THAT huge a deal, and the DVD issue is even more minor, yet you keep sounding the death knell for the 360 because of DVD size. Heck, the memory issue is more likely to HELP the DVD size as developers turn more and more to procedural textures and away from handcrafted ones.

You are creating a problem where one only exists for a tiny minority of developers. And even the one you tried to use as an example has said it wasn't that big a deal. And yet you continue to belabor the point.

This is like saying PC gaming was going to die back in the early '90s because a CD was not big enough for all the video-based games that were coming out.

I don't believe I've sounded the 'death-knell' at all nor have I used anything resembling those terms. I'm the one that agreed with the point that multiple DVD's for a game shouldn't be that big of a deal, yet the mere suggestion that it may occur draws harsh criticism as though it's a bad thing. It's honestly somewhat odd at this point. I'm not drawing out the point either. I've already agreed that the RAM issue on the PS3 was a bad move and that multiple DVD games on the 360 isn't a bad thing. More than happy to discuss it though if you'd like to keep posting about it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Engineers in Japan find that Microsoft is still not fixing the source of the problem in the repaired Xbox 360's. They found that the heat sinks are not being repaired and that the fans are functioning at a rate much lower than needed to cool the system, possibly as an artificial way to minimize the complaints about the noise produced by the console. Temperatures inside the repaired Xbox 360 still rose to around 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees F, which is the boiling point of water)........

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070801/137224/

Fragile Part of Xbox 360? Thermal Design Expert Investigates
Aug 01, 2007 11:04
Naoki Asakawa, Nikkei Electronics

Microsoft Corp. has logged a huge 1.06 billion USD (130 billion yen) charge due to warranty claims for its "Xbox 360" game console. This is a frightening amount of money for engineers engaged in product design.

Amid current circumstances, where consumer electronics manufacturers often recall their products, this is no longer someone else's affair. We would definitely like to know what caused Microsoft to log such a large cost.

Microsoft itself, however, refuses to reveal details of the malfunction that has forced the company incur huge expenses. So, we can only investigate the cause by ourselves. Nikkei Electronics thereby attempted to analyze the Xbox 360's heat radiation system, having a thermal design expert cooperate.

Nikkei Electronics focused on the heat radiation system for two reasons. One is that the Xbox 360 is known as a game console that often goes thermorunaway.

The other is that some have reported they heard a snapping noise when the Xbox 360 broke down and became inoperative. This makes sense if a component broke due to heat load caused by insufficient heat radiation.

We prepared two units of the Xbox 360 for analysis. One is the Xbox 360 the IT Pro editorial office purchased at the end of 2005. The other is a personal property of a reporter in the IT Pro editorial office who is also a heavy gamer.

The latter one had the same malfunction reported in this time and was repaired in May 2007. We considered we could probably discover the cause of the malfunction by comparing these two units, if Microsoft had implemented new measures to discharge heat when repairing the broken unit.


The heat sink for the graphics LSI is smaller than expected

First, we analyzed an Xbox 360 that we purchased in late 2005 to evaluate the console's standard power consumption and heat radiation when playing a title that required a lot of computing power for 3D graphics.

We measured the temperature of exhaust from the operating Xbox 360.

Power was about 170 W when playing a game.

The Xbox 360's power was about 170 W when the DVD equipment was running. The temperature of emitted air was about 45°C. A temperature gap with the room temperature (23°C) was 22°C.

"When designing consumer products, it is common to seek a temperature gap of around 10°C between exhaust and room temperatures," the thermal design expert said. "The 22°C is quite a large gap, in the first place."

The cooler fan's maximum wind speed was 1.1 m/s, only 1/2 to 1/3 compared with general desktop PCs. It may be partly because the fan rotation was reduced to lower noise. According to an expert's analysis, "The amount of switched air is slightly in short considering the chassis' size (309 x 258 x 83 mm3)."

Then we forced the Xbox 360's chassis open and exposed its main board.

"The heat sink on the graphics LSI is so small, I wonder if it can really cool down the board," our expert said.

Located at front end is the graphics LSI heat sink. At the back is the microprocessor heat sink equipped with a heat pipe.

Microsoft apparently had no choice but to downsize the graphics LSI heat sink in order to locate a DVD drive above it. The DVD drive's bottom surface covers the top of the heat sink and forms an air channel.

"In most PCs, a solid duct covers the top of the heat sink in order to secure an air channel," the expert said.

In the Xbox 360, however, the duct was cut off before the heat sink and the DVD drive, and, instead, chassis took up the heat sink's upper area probably due to limited space inside the chassis.


The temperature of the LSI goes over 100°C

To confirm the cooler system's performance, we measured the temperature of heat sinks. Attaching ends of a thermocouple to each heat sink for the microprocessor and graphics LSI, we closed the chassis and then switched on the Xbox 360.

"Wow, the temperature is rising fast..."

We attached ends of a thermometer to the two heat sinks.

In only five minutes since we started playing the game, the temperature of the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 70°C. The thermal gradient was about 10°C/min.

In 15 minutes, the microprocessor heat sink temperature stabilized at 58°C, but the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 80°C, 57°C above the room temperature.

Assuming room temperature of 35°C in mid-summer, the gap is estimated to reach more than 90°C. In that case, the temperature of chips in the graphics LSI could exceed 100°C.

We measured the temperature in good cooling environments, removing dust and obstacles from the vent hole, for example. If the cooling performance lowers with the vent hole choked up or the duct moved over, the LSI's temperature could get even higher.

If the malfunction stemmed from insufficient heat radiation, the graphics LSI and components around it are highly likely to be the failure parts.


Microsoft did not change the thermal design in the repair

Finally, we opened the chassis of the Xbox 360 repaired in May 2007 and compared it with the other Xbox 360 we purchased in late 2005.

"Huh? The heat sinks and fans are completely identical, aren't they?"

To our surprise, the composition of the repaired Xbox 360 looked completely the same as that of the Xbox 360 purchased in late 2005. It turned out that Microsoft provided repair without changing the Xbox 360's thermo design at least until May 2007.

[flounder]

Room temperature of 35°C?

[Eaglesfan27]

Room temperature of 35°C?

Yeah, that struck me too. I don't know too many people who can afford a 360 who can't also afford some type of air conditioning.

My launch 360 is going on 2 years with no problems.

[ISiddiqui]

Room temp at 95 F?! What in the Hell? It's usually over 20 degrees less in my apartment during the summer.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Room temp at 95 F?! What in the Hell? It's usually over 20 degrees less in my apartment during the summer.

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

[gstelmack]

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

Compare when Microsoft announced the recall vs when they said they got repaired console back. Is it not possible that Microsoft is now changing the design?

Be far more interesting for them to have done this on a just-repaired console rather than one at the height of the issue.

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

[Bee]

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

How do you know the issue hasn't been addressed? Doesn't the article state that Microsoft refuses to acknowledge what the actual issue is?

[Bee]

Dola.

Does anyone know if Sony has resolved the scaling issues with the PS3 yet?

[Eaglesfan27]

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

Exactly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How do you know the issue hasn't been addressed? Doesn't the article state that Microsoft refuses to acknowledge what the actual issue is?

The issue has only been adressed with the Elite units currently on the market. It now has a bigger heat sink. The Core and Premium units currently in stock still have the old defective heat sinks. It's likely that they are now producing Core and Premium units with a better heat sink, but we won't see those for awhile until they sell the current stock, so it's impossible to know until that point. Right now, the Elite unit is the only unit on the shelves that has been fixed. The newer Elite units also have been known to get the RROD error, but it has been at a much lower level than the old versions.

Microsoft's silence doesn't mean the problem isn't known. The heat problems in the console have been known to be the issue for quite some time. MS just refuses to take the PR hit to admit it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

Except for the fact that they cited all of their research and made sure to note that their projections for a 95 degree room were not actual, but rather projections. My understanding is that the authors have clarified that they used that projection not to suggest that most rooms are 95 degrees, but rather to show how hot a unit could get if it were in an enclosed space as many idiots often put them in an entertainment console. Microsoft's response would be that they warn people to put it in a well-ventilated area, but most people don't read the fine print and the unit is likely going to get repaired anyway if it gets a RROD regardless of where it is located, so you still have a major issue.

It's surprising that an engineer could see these issues so easily, yet MS engineers managed to miss these things that would have only minimally added to the cost to fix it before console release. Bad deal for consumers who purchased the console.

[EagleFan]

After all these months I'll finally bite. What is this boards' big interest with monthly sales numbers for console games?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

After all these months I'll finally bite. What is this boards' big interest with monthly sales numbers for console games?

It's a lot more interesting than political discussions.

[gstelmack]

Except for the fact that they cited all of their research and made sure to note that their projections for a 95 degree room were not actual, but rather projections.

And yet that's the fact that you started off this part of the thread with:

Temperatures inside the repaired Xbox 360 still rose to around 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees F, which is the boiling point of water)........

The rest of us had to read that whole article to find out your summary was not based on likely operation, but rather a theoretical worst-case. In fact, this temperature was never actually measured, it's a complete projection:

Assuming room temperature of 35°C in mid-summer, the gap is estimated to reach more than 90°C. In that case, the temperature of chips in the graphics LSI could exceed 100°C.

It never actually "rose to around 100 degrees Celsius", they just project it would if the outside air rose that high.

And you keep wondering why so many of us around here question the way you present your arguments. I'm finally done with the thread, this is just getting absolutely ridiculous...

[EagleFan]

It's a lot more interesting than political discussions.

Commie ;) :D


Okay, I'll buy that.

[Eaglesfan27]

And yet that's the fact that you started off this part of the thread with:



The rest of us had to read that whole article to find out your summary was not based on likely operation, but rather a theoretical worst-case. In fact, this temperature was never actually measured, it's a complete projection:



It never actually "rose to around 100 degrees Celsius", they just project it would if the outside air rose that high.

And you keep wondering why so many of us around here question the way you present your arguments. I'm finally done with the thread, this is just getting absolutely ridiculous...


I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

If I was a viral marketer, I'd have something financially to show for it I guess.

As far as the issue, I'm surprised at how quickly the consumers who are holding defective consoles are so quick to ignore the increasing amount of evidence that MS sold them a console which has major defects in engineering. Worse yet, MS still refuse to admit what the defects are as Bee noted, resulting in investigations by press organizations, lawyers in class action lawsuits and even governmental institutions in Europe which only bring the situation to the public in a worse light. MS would be a whole lot better off to just openly say "we f'd up" rather than continue to endure the bad PR without comment.

I have no doubt MS is very happy that Halo 3 is coming out soon to pull the focus away from the defect issues.

[KWhit]

I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

Agreed. It has crossed my mind as well.

[dawgfan]

I don't believe I've sounded the 'death-knell' at all nor have I used anything resembling those terms. I'm the one that agreed with the point that multiple DVD's for a game shouldn't be that big of a deal, yet the mere suggestion that it may occur draws harsh criticism as though it's a bad thing. It's honestly somewhat odd at this point. I'm not drawing out the point either. I've already agreed that the RAM issue on the PS3 was a bad move and that multiple DVD games on the 360 isn't a bad thing. More than happy to discuss it though if you'd like to keep posting about it.
So can we all agree then that disk size for the current generation of consoles is a very minor factor when considering the technical specs of the 360 and the PS3?

I think part of the reason this subject has hit a sore spot with Greg and myself is that you (and possibly others) argued several months back that the Blu-Ray DVD provided the PS3 a big gaming advantage over the 360 with regular DVD drives. I explained at the time that RAM limits were far more restrictive than disk space, and that the current RAM size of both consoles meant that very few games would run into problems with the size of a regular DVD, thus meaning that Blu-Ray gave the PS3 only a very, very small technical advantage for gaming. Yet you continue to try and present this as a big issue by pointing out any possibility that a 360 game might find themselves limited by disk space.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So can we all agree then that disk size for the current generation of consoles is a very minor factor when considering the technical specs of the 360 and the PS3?

I generally agree that it's a minor factor, but one to be considered. I personally always thought the multiple disc 'haters' (for lack of a better word) were overblown in their issues with having more than one disc for a game. There are some people that bitched about multiple discs on the PS2, something that I never personally had a problem with when I played those games. But regardless of my opinion, it's certainly a good discussion topic, as this thread has shown in spades.

[dawgfan]

I generally agree that it's a minor factor, but one to be considered. I personally always thought the multiple disc 'haters' (for lack of a better word) were overblown in their issues with having more than one disc for a game. There are some people that bitched about multiple discs on the PS2, something that I never personally had a problem with when I played those games. But regardless of my opinion, it's certainly a good discussion topic, as this thread has shown in spades.
I have no problem with multiple disk releases. I'm just saying that there will be very few games on the 360 that will be forced to face the decision to go multiple disk or not - most games will fit on the standard DVD size footprint, given the much more significant limit of 512 MB RAM. And lets be clear - 512 MB RAM is still plenty.