NFL Week 8

[ISiddiqui]

When the SAME people later give the Rockies credit for their great season

LOLOLOL! And I'm sure Lou Holtz was giving Navy credit for their great season too when he was the ND coach!! :rolleyes:

[molson]

LOLOLOL! And I'm sure Lou Holtz was giving Navy credit for their great season too when he was the ND coach!! :rolleyes:

Lou Holtz was just trying to get the other team to believe the hype and let their guard down.

The people in your office were just trying to give the Rockies credit, and they might have been trying to downplay the arrogance angle.

And yes, the Red Sox were a clear favorite, but that view wasn't everywhere. Check the MLB thread again, there were many who thought the Rockies would roll to a world series. They did have a pretty nice winning streak, if I recall.

I guess the Red Sox fans could predict a tie and you wouldn't jump all over them.

[ISiddiqui]

Lou Holtz was just trying to get the other team to believe the hype and let their guard down.

The people in your office were just trying to give the Rockies credit, and they might have been trying to downplay the arrogance angle.

And yes, the Red Sox were a clear favorite, but that view wasn't everywhere. Check the MLB thread again, there were many who thought the Rockies would roll to a world series. They did have a pretty nice winning streak, if I recall.

I guess the Red Sox fans could predict a tie and you wouldn't jump all over them.

Oh please... give the Rockies credit? By claiming they were actually the underdog? When the Red Sox were quite clearly the favorite. Yes, the Rockies had a very nice winning streak, but if you said the Red Sox should be the underdog, I'd consider your sanity.

As for the last throwaway comment, like I said, there isn't a "you're with us or against us" Bush-like crap. There is a way to be confident without being arrogant or give credit to the other team without claiming underdog status all the time. Unfortunately this you are either one or the other mentality seems to persist a lot when someone doesn't like it when the fanbase goes a bit too far to one side or the other.

For an area of the country that elects Kerry to the Senate, it's quite ironic that nuance can't be considered in dealing with the Pats or Red Sox :p.

Recall there are tons of folks who rooted like Hell for the Red Sox in 2004 (me among them), who just can't stand them now.

[molson]

For an area of the country that elects Kerry to the Senate, it's quite ironic that nuance can't be considered in dealing with the Pats or Red Sox :p.

OK, that's a pretty good point. :)

[ISiddiqui]

All I'm saying is that we'd like you more if acted more like Yankee fans ;).

[Alan T]

All I'm saying is that we'd like you more if acted more like Yankee fans ;).

I always found yankees fans more annoying personally but thats likely because I hated the fact that the Yankees spanked the Braves a few times, where the Red Sox haven't really done anything one way or another to the Braves in my lifetime.

[larrymcg421]

There are quite a few Pats fans that post here that don't fit in the stereotype, but most of the ones I've met have been insufferable lately.

My advice is for them to write out a pragraph on how they feel about Yankees fans. Then do a Find/Replace and replace Yankees with Patriots. Then reread the paragraph.

[molson]

I always found yankees fans more annoying personally but thats likely because I hated the fact that the Yankees spanked the Braves a few times, where the Red Sox haven't really done anything one way or another to the Braves in my lifetime.

Red Sox and Yankee fans have very similar tiers of membership - it breaks down by age, and how long they've been a fan.

There's also a ridiculous number of college students in these two cities (especially Boston), and that's probably the most vocal section of their fanbase. And a lot of those "vocal" (asshole might be appropriate too) fans are BU students from Long Island that have decided to get drunk and go to Red Sox games and pretend to be fans. Nobody's happy with that development, Sox fans and non-Sox fans alike. But those are the "fans" you notice first, and they contribute to the reputation.

I'd even concede that there's a most definitely a higher % of Red Sox/Pats fan assholes than probably any other team, largely because of the huge, drunken, college faction. (and that would include people beyond Long Island). It's a younger, less mature fan base on the whole. But it's still a very small portion of the greater whole. (And I realize that this is all many of you are saying, and I don't disagree with that)

[st.cronin]

I can't wait until the Lions' dynasty starts and people start calling Lions' fans annoying, arrogant, and classless.

That will be sweet...

:D

[st.cronin]

I will agree with Render about one thing, Boston is a miserable place to live.

[Desnudo]

It's not my favourite city by a long stretch, but I think miserable is way too strong. I would describe it more like "slightly assholish with some nice history."

[Sublime 2]

Red Sox and Yankee fans have very similar tiers of membership - it breaks down by age, and how long they've been a fan.

There's also a ridiculous number of college students in these two cities (especially Boston), and that's probably the most vocal section of their fanbase. And a lot of those "vocal" (asshole might be appropriate too) fans are BU students from Long Island that have decided to get drunk and go to Red Sox games and pretend to be fans. Nobody's happy with that development, Sox fans and non-Sox fans alike. But those are the "fans" you notice first, and they contribute to the reputation.

I'd even concede that there's a most definitely a higher % of Red Sox/Pats fan assholes than probably any other team, largely because of the huge, drunken, college faction. (and that would include people beyond Long Island). It's a younger, less mature fan base on the whole. But it's still a very small portion of the greater whole. (And I realize that this is all many of you are saying, and I don't disagree with that)

Come on now...why only BU kids ;) ? Northeastern, BC, Hahhvad...each of there own section of tag-along college 'fans.'

[molson]

Come on now...why only BU kids ;) ? Northeastern, BC, Hahhvad...each of there own section of tag-along college 'fans.'

I only chose BU becuase it's closest to Fenway Park. But you're right.

[Alan T]

I actually don't mind living near Boston. Growing up in the south, and having lived in Atlanta and Dallas I always heard that in the south you had southern hospitality and everyone was nice to one another, but in the Northeast, everyone was jerks and unfriendly. I have for the most part found that untrue all the way around and enjoy most everything about living here other than the miserable weather, the horrible roads and the crazy politics :)

[MikeVic]

I glanced at the standings on nfl.com today, and it looks funny in the AFC East... 1st-place Patriots have 300-something points, and 2nd-place Bills have under 100. :P

[Sublime 2]

Yeah, but it seems like the rioting and general assholish behavior congregates around BU, NU, and UMASS Amherst.

I think that's unfair, obviously it's going to be more congregated around BU and NU bc they are literally a block or two away.

[AlexB]

...and booed the Giants taking a knee to end the game.

That was one of the few things that annoyed me. The crowd was too neutral, not partisan enough - made noise when the Dolphins were on offense, and were silent on D. Tried getting a D-Fence chant going a number of times, but had about three people join in.

The cheers were loud for the TD's and a couple of other big plays, but generally it was quiet. Made me chuckle that when Ginn tripped on the KO, there was an audible groan! Set the tone somehow...

Still enjoyed it though, but they need to work out how to get more fans of the teams playing into the stadium to get the right atmosphere...

[RendeR]

The point is, if someone is going to decide that "Patriots fans are jerks", you're going to be treating them in a way that will make your perceptions true. But I'm pretty sure my parents aren't jerks, neither were my friends in the neighborhood, neither was the mailman, or the nice old guy across the street that let us play baseball in his yard. Or my first grade teacher, or the pastor at are church. They were are regular people.




Ok, last post here for me, i just want to clear some confusion molson has going on here.

You posted here that people are deciding the fanbase are jerks before actually dealing with them. As I've posted numerous times in this thread alone, that is not the case for me.

Prior to living there I actually supported the Pats, even through the first SB run. I wanted them to suceed, hell i was chering them on vs the bears in 85 and the pack in...what 93 was it? Its not like I moved to new England and arbitrarily chose to treat everyone like shit there.

Its not a self fullfilling prophecy molson, its an action-reaction. I was there, I joined in the celebrations and then suddenly instead of rational human beings it felt like the entire populace fairly swiftly mutated into jerks. What was worse is they seemed to really feel they were being villified unjustly and that made them even worse.

Please try to understand, in this chicken or egg discussion, it wasn't me firing the first salvos. I was quite happy living somewhere with a team I didn't hate that was doing great after years of suffering. The asinine behavious came after and THAT is what soured me on the people there.

But since you've ignored that throughout this discussion and are certain that I'm just being a prick and thus bring it on myself, well I guess its better I live in a City whose fans CAN be assholes, but for the most part are just pleasent people.

[Honolulu_Blue]

<TABLE cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR align=middle><TD>Week 12 (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Weeks/2004-12)</TD><TD>
</TD><TD>Nov 25</TD><TD>W</TD><TD>41-9 (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2004-12-ind-det)</TD><TD align=left>at Detroit Lions (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/2004-det) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Guess how many passes Sorgi threw in these games?

Yeah! Good point.

That Lions' game was particularly hurtful, it being on Thanksgiving and all. Poor Fernando Bryant he really got torched in that game.

Evil Coltses...

[Kodos]

I glanced at the standings on nfl.com today, and it looks funny in the AFC East... 1st-place Patriots have 300-something points, and 2nd-place Bills have under 100. :P

I'm getting tired of the Pats having a 6-game feast in the AFC East each year. Sure makes getting a good playoff seed easy.

[molson]

Ok, last post here for me, i just want to clear some confusion molson has going on here.

You posted here that people are deciding the fanbase are jerks before actually dealing with them. As I've posted numerous times in this thread alone, that is not the case for me.

Prior to living there I actually supported the Pats, even through the first SB run. I wanted them to suceed, hell i was chering them on vs the bears in 85 and the pack in...what 93 was it? Its not like I moved to new England and arbitrarily chose to treat everyone like shit there.

Its not a self fullfilling prophecy molson, its an action-reaction. I was there, I joined in the celebrations and then suddenly instead of rational human beings it felt like the entire populace fairly swiftly mutated into jerks. What was worse is they seemed to really feel they were being villified unjustly and that made them even worse.

Please try to understand, in this chicken or egg discussion, it wasn't me firing the first salvos. I was quite happy living somewhere with a team I didn't hate that was doing great after years of suffering. The asinine behavious came after and THAT is what soured me on the people there.

But since you've ignored that throughout this discussion and are certain that I'm just being a prick and thus bring it on myself, well I guess its better I live in a City whose fans CAN be assholes, but for the most part are just pleasent people.

You ran into some jerk fans - and then attributed to milllions of people. And not just fans of a team, but an ENTIRE geographic area.

I realize you lived there. But you didn't have contact with hundreds of thousands of people. What you're describing almost sounds like a sci-fi movie.

You got tired of the Pats hype and annoying Pats fans. That's understandable. But blanket-bashing people on a random message board is an illogical reaction to that.

[Groundhog]

So, how about that Tom Brady? Quite and arm, eh?

[molson]

So, how about that Tom Brady? Quite and arm, eh?

What the hell does that have to do with the tireless and never-repetitive discussion about Boston fans? Stay on topic!

[RendeR]

You ran into some jerk fans - and then attributed to milllions of people. And not just fans of a team, but an ENTIRE geographic area.

I realize you lived there. But you didn't have contact with hundreds of thousands of people. What you're describing almost sounds like a sci-fi movie.

You got tired of the Pats hype and annoying Pats fans. That's understandable. But blanket-bashing people on a random message board is an illogical reaction to that.

#1 this entire post of yours is false, a lie, a fabrication. You don;t KNOW any of this and for your information:

I DID in fact have contact with hundresd of thousands of people. How many poeple live in New England?

I worked for the USTA New England office. I traveled to every state up there for programs, scheduling seminars, tennis related events. Hell at the Fed'cup ALONE there were nearly 100 thousand people over a SINGLE weekend.

This is the biggest dent in your argument, you don't KNOW anything about me or my experience, you are so vehemently ignoring the fact that I might just be being honest and straight with you that you just make up shit and label it as the real reasoning.

WTF?

You cling to this idea that one or two or even a dozen individuals created this opinion in me. Which is NOT the case, it was the general atmosphere of the entire area. Didn't matter if I went to the grocery store, the mall or the local game shop to play warhammer. It made no difference if I were in south Connecticut or BF-egypt Maine, or of course downtown Boston. The conversation always flowed back to the teams and how woefully disrespected they are. And if not the woe is me story, then it was the arrogance that bordered on sheer idiocy. It became impossible to have any type of conversation without someone bringing up the teams or getting pissed off when someone dared disparage them in even the smallest way.

Dude, I'm, sorry you aren't willing to at least try and see this from my perspective, but frankly, thats the entire problem with the "so called majority" that I speak of. If it isn't what you want to hear then its obviously just wrong and someone elses fault, or is just utterly made up to discredit the teams.

THIS is the problem, the utter and complete unWILLINGness of that fanbase to ever consider that they MIGHT be the problem.

Thank you for helping to show my point so very clearly.

[st.cronin]

It doesn't matter how many Patriot or Raider fans you have met. Whenever you generalize about a group of people, you are always wrong.

[Crapshoot]

I will agree with Render about one thing, Boston is a miserable place to live.

That's absurd - I can't think of any other city (outside of San Francisco/ the Bay Area) where I would rather live (within the US). Its a wonderful place.

[Crapshoot]

Come on now...why only BU kids ;) ? Northeastern, BC, Hahhvad...each of there own section of tag-along college 'fans.'

No No, definitely BU (2 years living on the B line at Packard's Corner - I fucking hate BU :D). Though the arsehole contigent has strong roots at NorthEastern.

[Crapshoot]

#1 this entire post of yours is false, a lie, a fabrication. You don;t KNOW any of this and for your information:

I DID in fact have contact with hundresd of thousands of people. How many poeple live in New England?

I worked for the USTA New England office. I traveled to every state up there for programs, scheduling seminars, tennis related events. Hell at the Fed'cup ALONE there were nearly 100 thousand people over a SINGLE weekend.

This is the biggest dent in your argument, you don't KNOW anything about me or my experience, you are so vehemently ignoring the fact that I might just be being honest and straight with you that you just make up shit and label it as the real reasoning.

WTF?

You cling to this idea that one or two or even a dozen individuals created this opinion in me. Which is NOT the case, it was the general atmosphere of the entire area. Didn't matter if I went to the grocery store, the mall or the local game shop to play warhammer. It made no difference if I were in south Connecticut or BF-egypt Maine, or of course downtown Boston. The conversation always flowed back to the teams and how woefully disrespected they are. And if not the woe is me story, then it was the arrogance that bordered on sheer idiocy. It became impossible to have any type of conversation without someone bringing up the teams or getting pissed off when someone dared disparage them in even the smallest way.

Dude, I'm, sorry you aren't willing to at least try and see this from my perspective, but frankly, thats the entire problem with the "so called majority" that I speak of. If it isn't what you want to hear then its obviously just wrong and someone elses fault, or is just utterly made up to discredit the teams.

THIS is the problem, the utter and complete unWILLINGness of that fanbase to ever consider that they MIGHT be the problem.

Thank you for helping to show my point so very clearly.

Dear god RendeR, I'm annoyed by Pats fans as well (living in Boston did that to me), but you don't seem to understand the concept of anecdotal evidence in terms of its applicability to a larger setup. Yes, there are a lot of bandwagon fans who couldn't pick Drew Bledsoe out of a lineup, but Molson's point is applicable - your experiences alone are not enough to make sweeping generalizations, no matter how much you SCREAM IN CAPITAL LETTERS about it.

[st.cronin]

That's absurd - I can't think of any other city (outside of San Francisco/ the Bay Area) where I would rather live (within the US). Its a wonderful place.

Well, its a great place to go to college. Otherwise I don't think it offers much, and I feel like it has the highest ratio of cranky bastard/good neighbor of any place I've ever lived.

I consider it the Paris of North America.

[Crapshoot]

Well, its a great place to go to college. Otherwise I don't think it offers much, and I feel like it has the highest ratio of cranky bastard/good neighbor of any place I've ever lived.

I consider it the Paris of North America.

Huh. I lived in an apartment and I guess it was my first post-college job, but I never ran into the legions of assholes that I was warned about. It feel like a comfortable old town (though I was in Brookline for most of the time).

[molson]

Dear god RendeR, I'm annoyed by Pats fans as well (living in Boston did that to me), but you don't seem to understand the concept of anecdotal evidence in terms of its applicability to a larger setup. Yes, there are a lot of bandwagon fans who couldn't pick Drew Bledsoe out of a lineup, but Molson's point is applicable - your experiences alone are not enough to make sweeping generalizations, no matter how much you SCREAM IN CAPITAL LETTERS about it.

But he's actually disputing the fact that he's even using anecdotal evidence. He's claiming that he's simply made contact with enough people that he can claim a trait belongs to a "majority" of them with a straight face. I didn't understand the point at first because it's an amazing statement.

Tennis is apparently way bigger than I thought it was in Boston. (And yes, I know he brought up contact at supermarkets, etc, but unless it were 1,000 supermarkets, the point stands).

[molson]

Huh. I lived in an apartment and I guess it was my first post-college job, but I never ran into the legions of assholes that I was warned about. It feel like a comfortable old town (though I was in Brookline for most of the time).

Brookline and Brighton are pretty nice places to live in your 20s. After that, a lot of people feel that they're priced out, want something better in terms of square feet, and move away.

[RendeR]

Dear god RendeR, I'm annoyed by Pats fans as well (living in Boston did that to me), but you don't seem to understand the concept of anecdotal evidence in terms of its applicability to a larger setup. Yes, there are a lot of bandwagon fans who couldn't pick Drew Bledsoe out of a lineup, but Molson's point is applicable - your experiences alone are not enough to make sweeping generalizations, no matter how much you SCREAM IN CAPITAL LETTERS about it.


No crapshoot, its ont applicable, because nothing he's saying is factual. He's stating that I met a few shitty fans, period and went on a hate filled rampage blaming everyone for the acts of a few.

That is in FACT false. That is all my last post was trying to point out. his entire argument one way or the other is based on HIS opinion that my experience was something that it was not. He made it up. My experiences alone are ENTIRELY enough for ME to make a considered opinion on.

Again, you folks seem to think this just happened to me one day, it took 4 years of this to create this much disdain! =)

Come on READ, stop assuming I'm just tryin to be a hater, I'm not. I was utterly turned away BY the fanbase. I still know a number of pats fans and they're pretty much all normal fun loving people. So how do you correlate those facts? hrm?

If you're molson, you ignore them and just label me a prick with a stick up his ass and blame everyone else for hating the teams and the area =)

If you're not a total fanboy you MIGHt stop and say, "wow, maybe there is something to that, I may not have seen it, but that doesn't mean its not there"

I'm not asking everyone to despise things the way I do, I simply want my position to be acepted as such, but THAT again is something this specific fanbase can't do, it woul crush their pretty glass house they live under.

[RendeR]

But he's actually disputing the fact that he's even using anecdotal evidence. He's claiming that he's simply made contact with enough people that he can claim a trait belongs to a "majority" of them with a straight face. I didn't understand the point at first because it's an amazing statement.

Tennis is apparently way bigger than I thought it was in Boston. (And yes, I know he brought up contact at supermarkets, etc, but unless it were 1,000 supermarkets, the point stands).


Hrm, 4 years, 3 trips a month to the grocery store, on average say 25 people passed by, overheard, contacted, assisted by etc etc ...hrm....36 x 25 x 4 =3600 just from the grocery runs...2 hokcey games...30,000 in the arena, I'll just stick with the quarter I was sitting in, say 8,000 screaming insulting assinine drunken fans? (you KNOW bruins fans, so you best not even TRY arguing that)

so thats 19,900 people I've spent time in and around directly, Now, I haven't aded work contacts in yet, but even so, almost 20 grande is a pretty fucking huge sampling for ANY research item. Lets toss the whole BS about sample size out the window, K? cause you don't appear to understand your own suggestion.

[molson]

RendeR - if you just said there was a higher ratio of Boston residents and Pats/Red Sox fans with these kind of negative traits (compared to other cities and teams) I'd call a truce and agree.

The majority stuff still is, and will always be ridiculous, however.

And responding to your post above - were all of those 19,900 people jerks? 100% of the people you had contact with? That's an amazing statement.

[st.cronin]

If molson weren't so classless he wouldn't be running up the score on RendeR like this. Its just not fair.

[RendeR]

Humurously enough molson, you really are just proving my opinion. You just can't let go and even give a modicum of respect to anyone elses point of view. For you if we're bashing anything related we're just assholes being haters.

Thats part and parcel of the entire problem. The more you badger on at me trying to prove how wrong I am the more you prove exatly what I'm saying.

[RendeR]

If molson weren't so classless he wouldn't be running up the score on RendeR like this. Its just not fair.


this would be funny if he'd made a single point without basing it on lies.

molson, so now yer saying that your ONLY issue in this is that I said a Vast majority?

Funny, but in MY experience that is exatly what I saw. Sorry you disagree, but I'm not going to lie to everyone else to make you feel better. What you want to believe and reality don't appear to match based on MY experience.

but of course, I'm just hating, so I have to be wrong.

[molson]

For you if we're bashing anything related we're just assholes being haters.



What's this "WE'RE"? You're the only one I have an issue with. I don't even mind the Pats haters, they just add to the fun. I hate the Colts, but that's a strictly entertainment-based "hate", like I hated the Lakers back in the day. (And that's the same kind of hate many people have for the Pats, which is cool). Your statements go much further and are completely over-the-top illogical, and at this point, I'm more annoyed by that than the actual content.

[RendeR]

And responding to your post above - were all of those 19,900 people jerks? 100% of the people you had contact with? That's an amazing statement.



Using your data sampling idea, i went to a game with 30,000 pepole, about a quarter of THOSE people were jerks, thats about 8k? I was giving an example of a grouping with jerks in it. Not saying all 8k in my specific section were ALL jerks.

The grocery store is just the general numbers I can remember, there are far more than 25 people within contact/earshot range in any large grocery store in massachusettes ;)


Its all just words to you anyway, you aren't really reading them to try and understand them, you're just looking for another punchline to strike back at what you consider and injustice.

If you're not one of the asshole fans, then why do you care so much?

[RendeR]

What's this "WE'RE"? You're the only one I have an issue with. I don't even mind the Pats haters, they just add to the fun. I hate the Colts, but that's a strictly entertainment-based "hate", like I hated the Lakers back in the day. (And that's the same kind of hate many people have for the Pats, which is cool). Your statements go much further and are completely over-the-top illogical, and at this point, I'm more annoyed by that than the actual content.



Truth hurts. If it were really that illogical to you you'd have just ignored me.

[RendeR]

Goodnight folks.

[molson]

If you're not one of the asshole fans, then why do you care so much?

Good question - I have no idea. Mostly I'm trying to kill a little time at work. When someone bashes my entire home region, I also feel a little motivated to respond.

But I don't care that much. It's a message board. I'm not going to slash your tires or anything.

[RendeR]

Good question - I have no idea. Mostly I'm trying to kill a little time at work. When someone bashes my entire home region, I also feel a little motivated to respond.

But I don't care that much. It's a message board. I'm not going to slash your tires or anything.

*cackles* wel thats good to know, especially becuse if you WERE going to do so I'd really be freaked out that you'd drive 9 hours to seek revenge from a message board argument ;)

[RendeR]

Good question - I have no idea. Mostly I'm trying to kill a little time at work. When someone bashes my entire home region, I also feel a little motivated to respond.

But I don't care that much. It's a message board. I'm not going to slash your tires or anything.


DOLA: And the region itself really isn't at issue here. I adore the countryside, the mountains the trees everywhere, the ocean, and the history of the region is probably far and away the most well documented and important in the country.

Its not New England I despise, its the vast majority of its populace ;) thats all, just the people.....in fact, remove everyone to like...mexico or something and let us repopulate it and see if its the region that turns everyone into asshats ;)

An Experiment!! ;)

[Crapshoot]

If molson weren't so classless he wouldn't be running up the score on RendeR like this. Its just not fair.

Yeah, I gotta say - this isn't exactly an intellectually fair fight. One person understands statistics and anecdotal evidence - the other..... uses LOTS OF CAPS. :D

[Alan T]

Enough of the Render - Molson topic.. a bigger issue has come up..

Render, I've looked for a USTA location in Central Mass that I can play in leagues without having to pay like $1500 a year in membership fees. THis was very common where I grew up, but i can't find anything like that here.. Its all tennis clubs that have horrible fees... Does anything like that exist in new england??

[RendeR]

Enough of the Render - Molson topic.. a bigger issue has come up..

Render, I've looked for a USTA location in Central Mass that I can play in leagues without having to pay like $1500 a year in membership fees. THis was very common where I grew up, but i can't find anything like that here.. Its all tennis clubs that have horrible fees... Does anything like that exist in new england??


The key thing is to play USTA leagues, not joina specific club. Saves you a ton of money in the long run.

Give me an Email and Phone number in a PM and I'll email Heather Anastos at the USTA-NE offices. I guarentee she'll either get in touch with you directly or deliver your info to the person(s) that will be able to answer your questions and get you playing as much tennis as you can handle.

[WVUFAN]

1) Sports leagues are NOT like regular businesses. Other businesses do not need their competitors to survive (and prosper) in order for them to prosper (unless they are subject to antitrust suits, but that's another story). Sports leagues require most, if not all, of the competitors to succeed. Otherwise, you aren't going to get any money. You think the Pats would be making much if they were a barnstorming team with no national TV deal?

2) I don't think that "dominating play" really will add to attendance. Winning will. Blowing everyone out, I'm not sure.

I just saw this post. I a little late on the commenting ... sorry.

On the whole, yes, it's in the LEAGUE's best interest that there's some parity, but we're not talking about the league as a whole -- for the Patriots, there's absolutely no incentive to hold back on scoring. In essence, the Patriots really gain nothing as a team if they allow teams to remain in the game until the end. They have no reason to allow teams "dignity" by pulling their punches.

For each 21 point blowout, it causes more media coverage, which leads to more merchandise sales, ect. If Brady breaks the TD record, it's good times financially for the team (and Brady, I figure he has an incentive bonus in his contract). If the team breaks records, these are the kinds of things a franchise can hang their hat on for decades. After all, the 49ers continue to sell Montana jerseys to this day.

To me, there's just no reason why a professional team should ever hold back on scoring. If you have the ability to score, if the offense is being paid to put points on the board, then you just have to let them do that.

[ISiddiqui]

If the team breaks records, these are the kinds of things a franchise can hang their hat on for decades. After all, the 49ers continue to sell Montana jerseys to this day.

I like this quote, because I think it backs my point ;). Aside from having the single season QB rating record, what big time records did Montana hold? What records did the 49ers have during his time there?

The answer is 4 SuperBowls. And you don't have to run up the score to achieve that.

And I'd assume the media coverage is more for the undefeated record. And we aren't talking 21 point blowouts, we are talking about going for more when you already are up by 21. I'd imagine 3 TDs or even 2 TDs of a lead will get you the media coverage you desire.

[Alan T]

I like this quote, because I think it backs my point ;). Aside from having the single season QB rating record, what big time records did Montana hold? What records did the 49ers have during his time there?

The answer is 4 SuperBowls. And you don't have to run up the score to achieve that.

And I'd assume the media coverage is more for the undefeated record. And we aren't talking 21 point blowouts, we are talking about going for more when you already are up by 21. I'd imagine 3 TDs or even 2 TDs of a lead will get you the media coverage you desire.

Having lived through the 49ers destroy my team year after year in the 80s, I honestly don't see much difference between them and the current Patriots team. I can tell you for certain that many different games were well under control and they would still keep piling on the points. There is a reason I can't stand the 49ers to this day and root for them to lose more than any other team still. Its just part of football, what the Pats are doing now isn't really much different from what the 49ers did to my poor Falcons or the Saints or other teams back then. Check out the 1984 season:

vs Rams, up by 26 points in the 4th quarter, Montana still passing , throws a 44 yard pass to D.Clark for a TD. Final Score 33-0
vs Cleveland, up by 34 points, the 49ers still push for another score to go up 41-0 before the Browns score a TD in garbage time. Final score 41-7
vs Saints (who were a lousy team back then), they were up 28-3 in the 4th quarter thanks to an INT return for a TD, they still push down the field to go up 35-3 with very little time left which ended up being the final score.
vs the Vikings.. they were up 31-7 at halftime.. They kick 3 Field goals in a row.. they must not be trying to run up the score right? noo.. they just were stopped those particular drives before the end zone. The 49ers then score two more TDs in the 4th quarter to crush the Vikings 51-7.

So, you see thats why I don't really find what the Pats are doing to be a huge deal. The 49ers did it in the 80s, Buddy Ryan used to do it vs coaches he didn't like, the Pats are doing it now.. its just part of football. I dreaded the weeks where the Falcons would play the 49ers as a kid, not because I was afraid we would lose.. I was afraid we would be humiliated.... The only difference now with the Pats is that they are likely an even better team than that 49ers were.

[ISiddiqui]

But the point was, did the humiliation sell Montana jersies (and does it still to this day)? I don't think so.

And it doesn't matter to me who it was, piling on is still piling on.

[molson]

But the point was, did the humiliation sell Montana jersies (and does it still to this day)? I don't think so.

And it doesn't matter to me who it was, piling on is still piling on.

Honest, non-facetious question. Why does it bother you (or anyone) so much? Are you concerned for the feelings of the other team? "It's not necessary" isn't really an answer, because there's a lot of things that aren't necessary. If the Pats lose a star player, that's their problem.

There's plenty of room for disagreement on this, I'm just trying to see the other side - at the pro level, I just can't understand why this is a hot topic.

I know SOME just don't like the Pats anyway, so this is an easy thing to criticize. (I'm not accusing you of that, I can tell you have this opinion globally.)

[WVUFAN]

But the point was, did the humiliation sell Montana jersies (and does it still to this day)? I don't think so.

And it doesn't matter to me who it was, piling on is still piling on.

The touchdowns scored in "garbage" situations added to his stats, and that certainly helps sell jersies. The main difference is that people remember what he did, not how he did it. But the 49ers, Steelers and Cowboys were all dominant teams that used to "run up the score" when they had the chance. It doesn't harm the teams at all, and the added stats absolutely will sell merchandise.

Take a look at the 2004 Colts, as noted by someone already in this thread. Those garbage TD Manning threw helped nab him the single season record. You betcha that was financially a very good thing for both Manning and the Colts.

My point is in a professional atmosphere, it isn't the responsibility of any offense, Patriots or not, to "lighten up". They are paid to score points. The defense is paid to stop points from being scored. That fact doesn't change whether the score is 3-0 or 52-0.

[rkmsuf]

Honest, non-facetious question. Why does it bother you (or anyone) so much? Are you concerned for the feelings of the other team? "It's not necessary" isn't really an answer, because there's a lot of things that aren't necessary. If the Pats lose a star player, that's their problem.

There's plenty of room for disagreement on this, I'm just trying to see the other side - at the pro level, I just can't understand why this is a hot topic.

I know SOME just don't like the Pats anyway, so this is an easy thing to criticize I'm not accusing you of that, I can tell you have this opinion globally.

Seems like there are a couple camps


- those that inherently dislike belicheck or the pats. this is an easy ax to grind.

- those that are just babies. randall godfrey comes to mind.

- those that stand on the moral high ground

- those that just take the view that generates the most talk and controversy. seems like lately several national types go out of their way to do this.


don't really hear a peep from most coaches or players though. like someone said, what's more insulting: taking a knee every play of the 4th quarter or going out there and continuing to play normally?

[miami_fan]

SI.com had a couple of columns on this earlier this week. Here is Dr. Z's

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/10/30/running.up/index.html

Essentially it is one of those "unwritten" rules of the sport. I find it similar to stealing a base or dragging a bunt up the line in baseball when the score is 30-1. Now, personally I don't have a problem with that either. I use the same rational. These are pros and it is not the offense's job to let up. It is the defense's job to stop. I know I am in the minority but that is the way it seems to me. I find it interesting that in baseball if someone did that, that person or someone else on the team would get a pitch placed in his earhole and everyone would cheer. Yet the suggestion that someone take a run at a football player in response to "running up the score" is somehow caveman like.

[molson]

I was thinking about this a couple of days ago. It is interesting to see in various sports what the "unwritten" rules are.

Football - You should take your starters out and move to a conservative game plan
Baseball - You should still hit as well as you can, but not bunt for a hit or steal bases
Basketball - You can still score at will, but you should take your starters out
Hockey - I have no idea
Soccer - As far as I can tell, there is no letting up. Chelsea won 6-0 the other week and continued working hard for a goal and celebrated wholeheartedly the sixth goal.

I wonder what leads to the different mindsets in different sports. I guess the big thing to me, as someone who watches the premier league in England, is that the team in the lead is always trying to score, and at no point is considered "running it up" - if the goals keep going in, the losing team is the one that is looked down upon.

Interesting Post.

Football seems to be alone in the "running the score up is bad" department as far as pro sports goes. And in football, you have a much smaller bench to utilize than the other sports.

[Butter]

It's a bit different in soccer, though, as goal difference is tiebreaker #1. Point differential is not a major factor in any of the major American sports.

[Pumpy Tudors]

At least in pro sports, I stopped being a fan for "unwritten rules" a while back. I think it's when I found out about the one in baseball that says you're not supposed to break up someone else's perfect game by bunting for a hit.

So, yeah, unwritten rules can pretty much bite me.

[Daimyo]

The problem to me is not so much the Pats are running up the score its that the losing teams are letting them. If the Pats want to leave their starters in with 30 point leads and continue to pass deep and play aggressively the defense should do the same and start calling all-out blitzes and such. Don't try to injure, but basicallyhit Brady hard enough that he knows you're still playing the game too.... basically they should play just as hard and aggressive as the Pats.

[rkmsuf]

The problem to me is not so much the Pats are running up the score its that the losing teams are letting them. If the Pats want to leave their starters in the defense should start calling all-out blitzes. Start hitting Brady just a bit late if you can't get the sack... basically they should play just as hard and aggressive as the Pats.

Right. I heard some people calling out Greg Williams after last week.

One of these games they should just cancel the second half and then see how foolish these other teams feel.

[molson]

The problem to me is not so much the Pats are running up the score its that the losing teams are letting them. If the Pats want to leave their starters in with 30 point leads and continue to pass deep and play aggressively the defense should do the same and start calling all-out blitzes and such. Don't try to injure, but basicallyhit Brady hard enough that he knows you're still playing the game too.... basically they should play just as hard and aggressive as the Pats.

I agree with your point, but disagree with the common notion that the Pats aren't resting their starters in these games. Sure, they probably keep them in longer than other teams, but Matt Cassell (who scored a TD against Washington) and Kyle Eckel have seen garbage time action. Randy Moss ususally isn't in the game at the end, same with some of the older guys on defense.

[rkmsuf]

Or if you root against NE then you should be happy the more the starters are on the field.

[molson]

Or if you root against NE then you should be happy the more the starters are on the field.

Of course.

I wonder what the reaction would be (god forbid), if the Colts were able to run up the store in a win against the Pats.

There'd be some sentiment that is was OK, because it was against the Pats. But I guarantee I wouldn't complain.

[rkmsuf]

I would be complaining about the Pats getting pasted. Not focussed on the Colts. Who gives a crap how they do it if they cream you by 30.

[AlexB]

That's a good point, Butter, one that I hadn't had thought of.

But it doesn't really speak to the whole sportsmanship issue. When Sheva hit #6 at the end of the game, they didn't solemly celebrate and get back to midfield. They did the whole run around, dogpile, cheering stuff.

If that had happened in American sports, they would have been castigated for it. But in England it's normal behaviour.

I wonder if this is related to the crowd in London booing after the Giants took a knee to end the Dolphins game?

I don't know about the last sentence, cause the booing really annoyed me - and gave Tom Coughlin the chance to be patronising towards us which annoyed me even more.

I always felt why football is pretty much alone in 'not running the score up in football' was the injury risk - being a more physical game, it's a trade off: the winning team take their foot off the gas and the losing team don't hit as hard to try to avoid injuring the opponents.

[miami_fan]

I always felt why football is pretty much alone in 'not running the score up in football' was the injury risk - being a more physical game, it's a trade off: the winning team take their foot off the gas and the losing team don't hit as hard to try to avoid injuring the opponents.

I can't see that being it. In fact nothing will get a guy ripped more by the announcers and the coaches than a defensive player letting up on an opponent that has been kicking your ass all over the field all day.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

What about players who have financial incentives in contracts that might not be reached if a winning team goes too conservative? What about potential free agent players that could get more money in the offseason by staying in longer and racking up stats and big plays? What about giving your reserves the full range of the playbook to see how they can perform in a non preseason game? What about the fans of the winning team (at least for home games) paying very high ticket prices that want to see their team play hard and full out for almost 4 entire quarters instead of 2 1/2?

I throw this out there because these issues have never really been raised too often in the discussion and I think they are valid points in favor of a team playing its normal game for almost all of it.

As a fan, if I committed an entire day taking my kid to a game and paying big bucks for tickets, parking, concessions, and then saw them take the second half off (and Brady, Moss, etc. coming out very early, I actually be a little pissed.

[RendeR]

Interesting Post.

Football seems to be alone in the "running the score up is bad" department as far as pro sports goes. And in football, you have a much smaller bench to utilize than the other sports.


No sure I agre with the smaller bench idea. Football rosters are 46? strong now? So basically you have a replacemnt and more for every position save the punter and kicker.

Hockey would have the smallest ratio because every player plays save the backup goalie most nights. You generally don't see the star players not getting their shifts. In most cases if its a blowout the players just tend to dump the puck and play defense more than if they were in a closer game.

[molson]

No sure I agre with the smaller bench idea. Football rosters are 46? strong now? So basically you have a replacemnt and more for every position save the punter and kicker.

Hockey would have the smallest ratio because every player plays save the backup goalie most nights. You generally don't see the star players not getting their shifts. In most cases if its a blowout the players just tend to dump the puck and play defense more than if they were in a closer game.

I think there's a couple of other factors that make football's bench smaller. Injuries, and the fact that you have more backups at QB, WR, and RB then any other positions. Teams don't usually have a back up at every position at O-line, linebacker, defensive back, and sometimes secondary. (Something I really only know from filling out FOF depth charts). And it's the only sport you can usually assume you'll lose at least a couple of people to minor injuries during the game, thinning the bench further. In basketball, it's easy enough to throw out 5 non-starters. With hockey, you can leave your entire first line out for the reasons you mentioned.