ceiling for your young "franchise" QB - McNabb?

[hoopsguy]

I had this discussion with a Cowboys fan recently around Romo, but I think that it is equally applicable for Cutler, Rivers, and Ryan right now.

Everyone hopes that their young QB will be the next Brady or P. Manning, but those guys are going to end up as all-time greats. How realistic is it to expect your young player to reach this level?

Given what you have seen from your "franchise" QB, would you be satisfied with him progressing and playing at the same level as Donovan McNabb has over his ten year career, plus whatever he has left in the tank? I'm not talking about the regular season or playoff record, as those are a by-product of the QB + the surrounding talent. I'm talking about the QB performance in a vacuum. A different team will likely have different results (maybe less playoff appearances, maybe Super Bowl wins, etc).

[DaddyTorgo]

oooh - great question, and a great example.

i would say the answer is yes.

[Logan]

Yeah, a very good example. I'd say yes.

[DeToxRox]

Honestly, Eli Manning right now is what I want out of a franchise QB.

I'd say from here on out he's a shue in for 3200 - 3500 yards, 22-27 TD, and 10-13 INT.

He manages games well, he gets all his players involved, and he is nails under pressure.

And I used to hate Eli, but that kid has really evolved into a protoytpe at QB.

[MrDNA]

If I can add Brady Quinn to the list of "potential franchise QBs" I would answer: hell yes. Donovan's had a great level of success, especially compared to the other QBs from that "great" class (sigh... Tim Couch...)

[DaddyTorgo]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

[DeToxRox]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

That's fine, but if I didn't say it was Eli, and just a generalization of a perfect franchise QB, would you disagree?

[Logan]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

edit: I quoted this before you expanded on yours. It was a move orchestrated by his father, if you want to hold that against him for the rest of his career, you're more than welcome to. But considering everything he has done since that has been pure class, and there's many more bad guys in the NFL, I think it should be forgotten.

[DeToxRox]

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

Yeah. Eli seems like a good guy, and as a Lions fan, I do not blame him. Hell, I suspect it'll happen to us this year. Why do you blame a guy who does not want to play for a shitty franchise? If Stafford or Smith said "fuck you Lions, you've shown nothing that'll show I can thrive here" then why would you sign with them?

[DaddyTorgo]

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

Why should I? It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

[Deattribution]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

Somebody sounds like they are still bitter over the Super Bowl :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Somebody sounds like they are still bitter over the Super Bowl :)


Nope. I felt this way since he was drafted. As I said, it stems from that.

[Deattribution]

I'd take the performance of McNabb in a QB, Injuries and off the field controversy aside.

But throw in those two things and I think I would pass him up and take my chances on a rookie I had no idea about.

[Logan]

Nope. I felt this way since he was drafted. As I said, it stems from that.

Assuming you have the same venom towards Elway and his career?

[Deattribution]

Not to continue the thread jack, but I figured everyone got over the whole Eli ordeal when he was pretty much proven right by the way they treated Drew Brees, and to a lesser extent Marty Schottenheimer. Both were classless acts by the Chargers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Elway was a bit before my time for me to have strong feelings about. I wasn't really an NFL fan until HS when he was basically already done.

[DaddyTorgo]

can we end the threadjack and return to the original question?

[Logan]

can we end the threadjack and return to the original question?

Yes, when the original threadjacker requests it, it can now return to topic.

[EagleFan]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.


Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

:devil:

[miami_fan]

Kind of hard to put the QB in a vacuum but I think it McNabb is a great example. In my opinion, he has been very good to great with the least amount talent overall surrounding him.

[Autumn]

It's a good question. I think in action most team staffs, and fans, answer No by the fact that they'll move on to someone else if the kid doesn't perform like Brady. But I think taking a broader view a team should be glad to have someone at the McNabb level, given how easy it is to end up with worse. But everyone wants to go for the best, and so I think a lot of potentially decent QBs get bounced around or shown the door.

[cartman]

If McNabb is considered the ceiling, and taking into account that Romo has had much better stats in his first three seasons as a starter than McNabb's first three as a starter, then it is a no-brainer to keep Romo if you are saying that the career arcs will be similar. That means that Romo will have a higher high than McNabb experienced by quite a large margin.

[kcchief19]

I have a hard time separating a QB and his statistics from his win/loss record. Stats alone don't tell the whole story.

That said, earlier today I said there were only two guys I would define as "franchise QBs" -- Manning and Brady. The "ceiling" (maybe "floor" is a better term?) I had in mind were the next guys on my list, McNabb and Roethlisberger.

For me, I essentially define a "franchise" QB as someone who I'd be willing to see quarterback my favorite team for the duration of his career. The guy is the QB and there is no doubt, debate or question. In essence, I think a franchise guy is someone who you envision playing for one team his entire career barring an injury or quirk (think Montana leaving San Francisco for KC because he missed an entire season and you have another franchise-type guy behind him).

Considering only stats, if I took Manning and Brady I'd be confident my favorite team would make many deep runs in the playoffs and win a title or two. With McNabb, I'd feel like the team had someone who would get the job done but wouldn't necessarily be someone I'd take for their entire career.

I think Rivers is reaching that level and Brees might be as well. Delhomme I think a guy like Hasselbeck was on that second tier for a while but isn't now.

The Cowboys are my second favorite team but I don't have the love affair with Romo that most people seem to have. I also don't see what people love about Cutler. But that has more to do with intangibles, which is why I don't think you can divorce stats and wins as much as you may want. I don't see Romo and Cutler being the guys who can will their teams to wins the way McNabb and Roethlisberger can.

[RedKingGold]

To me, a "franchise" quarterback or number one overall draft pick has a successful career once he takes the team who drafted him to a Super Bowl.

[molson]

Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

:devil:

Have you ever read any of your posts after an Eagles game?

Though I'm interested in your opinion on the original post, since you were calling for Kolb to start the rest of the season a few weeks ago.

[SackAttack]

To me, a "franchise" quarterback or number one overall draft pick has a successful career once he takes the team who drafted him to a Super Bowl.

So Steve Young, by definition, never had a successful career, am I correct? :)

[Galaril]

Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

:devil:

Agree that is ridiculous. Reminds me of when Harrison got his knee taken out a few years ago at the end of the season by the Titans Bobby Wade and Harrison was calling it a a "dirty " play.

[Axxon]

Assuming you have the same venom towards Elway and his career?

I do and have said as much on the board.

[EagleFan]

Have you ever read any of your posts after an Eagles game?

Though I'm interested in your opinion on the original post, since you were calling for Kolb to start the rest of the season a few weeks ago.

Have you read why I was calling for Kolb? The Eagles were out of it, or so I incorrectly thought (glad that they basically won the lottery week 17 to get in), and it seemed that McNabb was not in the team's plans for next season forward so at that point it only makes sense for the team to see if the person they are pinning there hopes on at QB is going to be worth it or if they need to look elsewhere.

As for your first statement. Supporting posts please? There is a huge difference between venting frustration at the team and whining. Whining is the Pats fans with their "everyone is jealous of us" "everyone is against us" "look what we had to overcome" crap.

As for the opinion upon McNabb, I have been a huge supporter of his during his time in Philly. He frustrates me once in a while but no where near as much as Reid's play calling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No, I would not be satisfied with that, as there are more than a dozen QB's I'd rather have in the league at pretty much any given moment. If my guy is really a "franchise QB" worth the phrase then I don't think I should feel like there's that many I'd rather have. Otherwise he's just my current starter, not my franchise if you see the distinction I'm trying to make.

[Izulde]

No, I would not be satisfied with that, as there are more than a dozen QB's I'd rather have in the league at pretty much any given moment. If my guy is really a "franchise QB" worth the phrase then I don't think I should feel like there's that many I'd rather have. Otherwise he's just my current starter, not my franchise if you see the distinction I'm trying to make.

Which are those QBs by the way?

[EagleFan]

If McNabb is considered the ceiling, and taking into account that Romo has had much better stats in his first three seasons as a starter than McNabb's first three as a starter, then it is a no-brainer to keep Romo if you are saying that the career arcs will be similar. That means that Romo will have a higher high than McNabb experienced by quite a large margin.

McNabb 1st 3 seasons:
44 G, 38 GS, 721-1278 (56.4%) for 7456 yds, 54 TD, 32 Int (2.5%), 215 carries for 1424 with 8 TD's

Romo's 1st 3 seasons:
16 G, 0 GS, 0-0 for 0 yards, 0 TD, 0 Int, 2 carries for -2 yards



Of course since you are just counting Romo's first three seasons as a starter we can look at the following names:

Owens, Roy Williams, Whitten

Small, Charles Johnson, Dunn


Or a couple other numbers:
1st 3 seasons as a starter postseason record:

Romo: 0-2
McNabb: 3-2

[JonInMiddleGA]

Which are those QBs by the way?

I've never been particularly impressed by McNabb as a QB but I'm not particularly inclined to go searching through the league rosters for every season he's been in the league to give annual answers but I'll quickly throw out some names from this current season since you asked.

Rivers, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Ryan, Romo, Cassell/Brady, Cutler, Big Ben, Flacco, Favre make 11 (twelve if you count both NE guys). At some point you start getting into that realm I was talking about, starters vs franchise guys and I'm getting close to stretching my comfort zone with that word here. But I'd also rather have current editions of Warner, Garcia, and possibly Collins & Hill starting for my team than McNabb.

edit to add: Scratch "close to stretching my comfort zone" and replace it with "there aren't really half the guys in the league I'd consider as 'franchise' QB's instead of 'starting' QB's ... but I'd rather have roughly half the leagues QB's than McNabb.

[EagleFan]

I've never been particularly impressed by McNabb as a QB but I'm not particularly inclined to go searching through the league rosters for every season he's been in the league to give annual answers but I'll quickly throw out some names from this current season since you asked.

Rivers, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Ryan, Romo, Cassell/Brady, Cutler, Big Ben, Flacco, Favre make 11 (twelve if you count both NE guys). At some point you start getting into that realm I was talking about, starters vs franchise guys and I'm getting close to stretching my comfort zone with that word here. But I'd also rather have current editions of Warner, Garcia, and possibly Collins & Hill starting for my team than McNabb.

edit to add: Scratch "close to stretching my comfort zone" and replace it with "there aren't really half the guys in the league I'd consider as 'franchise' QB's instead of 'starting' QB's ... but I'd rather have roughly half the leagues QB's than McNabb.

:lol:

Are you serious?

Rivers? Cutler? Flacco? Cassels? Favre? Warner? Collins? Hill? Garcia? Romo?

[Eaglesfan27]

:lol:

Are you serious?

Rivers? Cutler? Flacco? Cassels? Favre? Warner? Collins? Hill? Garcia? Romo?

His list was so inane that it wasn't even worth a response.

[stevew]

I am so tired of the drama surrounding the eagles and McNabb. Can't wait till they are bounced from the playoffs again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

{shrug} The question was asked, I answered ... albeit getting the original question a little mixed up with the point I was trying to make about the whole franchise vs starting QB thing. My list was more about the latter than the former and really turned into "how many guys would I prefer to be my starting QB than DMcN". I did not do a list that was about career arc (or however you want to put it), which would have been more attuned to the original question. My bad if that generated confusion, I was just trying to list which dozen or so QB's I'd rather have this year than him, including some guys who I would prefer because of how they could be used effectively within their talent range, not because they're some sort of awe inspiring superstars.

If my franchise guy - ostensibly Matt Ryan I guess - turned out to be McNabb, I'd be disappointed because I really feel like he's more of a starter because he's the best on the roster, not one of the greats in the league. More like one of the good/pretty good in the league. Maybe I apply tougher standards to the whole "franchise QB" tag than most people, I dunno. Not something I spend a hella lot of time trying to define but I think my thought process goes something like "a guy you want to build your team around" instead of "a guy you build your team around because you can't come up with a better option right now". And I don't believe the former grow on trees, there's only a handful of them at a given time. Doesn't make the others horrible QB's, they just aren't people I'd jump with glee at making my team revolve around. That's what Ryan is (in this hypothetical case) so if he peaks as McNabb then I'd have to be disappointed because there's never been a single day in his career that I would have bet the farm on McNabb,
I simply don't see him as that kind of player.

[mrsimperless]

Why do you blame a guy who does not want to play for a shitty franchise?

Because if you want the privilege of playing in the NFL then you have to abide by their rules. The draft is part of the game and there is NO single player who is bigger than the game.

As far as Eli goes I like him though. He may be devoid of personality, but it is better than the trainwrecks a lot of these guys become.

And I would say that an above average quarterback who can win a super bowl is something to be happy about. "Franchise" QBs are not easy to come by. They more or less have to fall into your lap. If your team has even one in your lifetime I'd say you are lucky. And no, McNabband Eli aren't franchise QBs. They're capable of winning games on their own, but they don't make a habit of it. However, you put a good team around them and they can make that team great.

[Tigercat]

Talking about QB play in a vacuum, I am more than happy with Brees' current level. If I find out one day it isn't his ceiling, I will probably have an instantaneous orgasm.

[cuervo72]

I think if we're going to play the "who better" game, we should also pose the question "what QBs from 2000-present would you rather have had". Not at any given moment, but over the whole period (eliminate guys who had insane years but then tanked - i.e. Marc Bulger). Farve, Brady, Manning are givens I'd say. Who else?

(that aside...I still can't honestly say that I didn't like Randall better than McNabb)

[DaddyTorgo]

you'd want favre since 2000? really? i'd take someone else third (over him) during that time period behind Brady/Manning for sure

[cuervo72]

Heh, well maybe maybe not. I did wonder after I wrote that.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't really have an answer for who i'd take right now (would have to do some comparing), but i'm sure i could find somebody.

[chesapeake]

A wise person absolutely should be satisfied if your QB of the future turns out to have as good of a career as has McNabb. Just as I am satisfied that Matt Hasselbeck has turned out to be a solid and occasionally spectacular QB since Holmgren traded for him to fill that role for the Seahawks.

I wish that Hasselbeck was a Hall of Fame caliber QB. But expecting every QBotF to be one is ludicrous. Most end up sucking. Considering the past QBotFs that the Seahawks have annointed since the conclusion of the Dave Kreig era -- Kelly Stouffer, Dan McGwire and Rick Mirer, each of which cost at least a 1st round pick -- having one pan out as well as Hasselbeck has is very satisfying.

[Neuqua]

As a Bears fan, I would be ECSTATIC to have a quarterback come even close to McNabb.

[Neuqua]

1992: Harbaugh, Peter Tom Willis, Will Furrer
1993: Harbaugh, Willis
1994: Erik Kramer, Steve Walsh
1995: Kramer 1996: Kramer, Dave Kreig
1997: Kramer, Rick Mirer
1998: Kramer, Steve Stenstrom, Moses Moreno
1999: Shane Matthews, Cade McNown, Jim Miller
2000: McNown, Matthews, Miller
2001: Miller, Matthews
2002: Miller, Chris Chandler, Henry Burris
2003: Kordell Stewart, Chandler, Rex Grossman
2004: Grossman, Jonathan Quinn, Craig Krenzel, Chad Hutchinson
2005: Kyle Orton, Grossman
2006: Grossman
2007: Grossman, Brian Griese, Orton
2008: Orton, Grossman

Yeesh.

[henry296]

I think the way to approach this questions, if your team heavily invested in a quarterback either through draft, free agency or trade what performance would be an acceptable return on that investment. I'm sure it depends on the size of the contract, but I'm think 1st or 2nd round pick or 4-5 year contract where you are pegging your future on that QBs success.

I would easily take McNabb's performance in that situation.

[MikeVic]

You did have Kordell, Neuqua.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay - of all the sites on the interwebs i can't find one that compiles cumulative qb ratings for time periods? that can't be right - i figured there had to be one.

[gstelmack]

McNabb is having the running QB issue of injuries. I think he had a great couple of years, but has been tailing off. Of course, it's hard to tell how much is McNabb, and how much has been the coaching staff's refusal to run or get him a decent receiver. So I'm not sure. But I don't know if he's who I'd want leading my franchise.

Of course, so many of the QBs have warts. I've liked Rivers since he was at NC State, because he always gives his all to try and find a way to win (something I don't think McNabb has, see the Super Bowl game). But with the Chargers he doesn't seem to wake up sometimes until the fourth quarter. Jeff Garcia and Daunte Culpepper have had the running QB curse as well, with some fantastic years then just dying off. Jake Delhomme will just throw killer interceptions at exactly the wrong time, but then Brett Favre made a hall-of-fame career out of that strategy. Tom Brady can't handle a strong pass rush. Peyton Manning loves to blame his receivers.

Really, all the QBs in the NFL clearly suck...

[sabotai]

Because if you want the privilege of playing in the NFL then you have to abide by their rules.

He did. Teams are not drafting players, they are drafting the exclusive right to sign a player. The players are under no obligation to sign with the team that drafts them.

If what he did was outside the rules, he'd be in a Chargers uniform or not playing at all.

[Fidatelo]

I think McNabb has been a great quarterback, and I'd be happy if Cutler (I'm a Broncos fan) can sustain a career similar to his. Sure, guys like Brady and Manning are better, but if you don't have one of those 2-3 'superstars' you could do a lot worse than getting a decade of solid production out of your QB.

[digamma]

I think if we're going to play the "who better" game, we should also pose the question "what QBs from 2000-present would you rather have had". Not at any given moment, but over the whole period (eliminate guys who had insane years but then tanked - i.e. Marc Bulger). Farve, Brady, Manning are givens I'd say. Who else?

(that aside...I still can't honestly say that I didn't like Randall better than McNabb)

You maybe, maybe, maybe have an argument for Warner. Other than that, I think you end up with the list above. Part of being a franchise QB is longevity and year to year success. If you aren't satisfied with McNabb, you're probably an Eagles fan.;)

[DanGarion]

It's funny how with all this talk of QBs the last couple days no one really mentions much about the best young QB in the league, Drew Brees...

[Danny]

I would without a doubt be very happy if Jamarcus Russell plays at the level of McNabb. McNabb is in that tier under Manning and Brady and he can take you deep into the playoffs and to a superbowl (and win it if things go right).

[hoopsguy]

It's funny how with all this talk of QBs the last couple days no one really mentions much about the best young QB in the league, Drew Brees...

I intentionally left him off the list in the initial post because I think he has established himself enough that you are not thinking about his potential at this point.

[ISiddiqui]

And what do you we consider young? A week from now, Brees will turn 30.

[DaddyTorgo]

Brees is too old. He's an established "tweener" guy between the first and second tier.

I think young is like - first 3 years in the league/as a starter.

I put the /as a starter in there to cover guys such as Cassel or Leinert who may have been in the league a couple years, but haven't had enough game-reps to aid development

[hoopsguy]

And what do you we consider young? A week from now, Brees will turn 30.

In order to avoid an age discussion, guys who have 3 or less years of starting experience in the NFL = young. That allows someone like Romo to still be part of this discussion even though he is probably only a year younger than Brees.

I do not think people are talking about the "potential" of Drew Brees at this point in his career. Thus there isn't all that much point of asking what his career trajectory/accomplishments are going to look like relative to McNabb. I would argue that Brees has exceeded McNabb, but that is a separate discussion.

[DanGarion]

Well personally I think Brees should be considered in the Brady/Manning level... That's what I was getting to.

[Kodos]

McNabb has certainly had more playoff success than Brees. And outside of T.O. for one season or so, when has McNabb ever had a WR who was worth anything? I think he has been very solid given the talent around him.


So is Carson Palmer considered to be just average at this point? Not a bust, but not a real star.

[Kodos]

Brees absolutely should not be considered on par with Manning or Brady. He had a very good statistical season this year, and some good ones in San Diego, but do opponents really fear him? Are his teams consistent division winners who go deep into the playoffs and are contenders year in and year out?

[DaddyTorgo]

I called Brees a "tweener" because he sure had a hell of a year this year, and some solid years before that, but he hasn't had multiple Brady/Manning years in a row and/or been consistently deep in the playoffs.

Brees is a great QB, and I think you could certainly make an argument that he's the third most talented QB in the NFL in terms of his talent/ability, but if that's the case then that top-level only has two guys on it, because Brees is just not quite on the level of Brady/Manning. I don't think anybody quakes in their boots at the sight of Drew Brees lining up under center across from them. He's very good - he had a monster season, but he's just not on the Brady/Manning level. That being said, if he puts up another two years of performance at around 85-90% of what he put up there this year, I'd be willing to revisit my stance on him.

[Oilers9911]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

Yeah, because a person should have no say in where they are employed. What if you were drafted into your job at a company you didn't want to work for? I know the money involved is different but people have a say in where they earn their living.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, because a person should have no say in where they are employed. What if you were drafted into your job at a company you didn't want to work for? I know the money involved is different but people have a say in where they earn their living.

exactly. which is why there's free agency.

and you can't blow off the huge sums of money involved so easily. the fact that he'll make more under his rookie contract than anybody on this board will make in their entire lives isn't a trivial matter. i wouldn't tolerate whining from anybody who was being compensated on that scale.

if i was drafted into my job and was being paid that much i'd either suck it up and work there or else i'd quit and go get a job doing something else.

[Tigercat]

I called Brees a "tweener" because he sure had a hell of a year this year, and some solid years before that, but he hasn't had multiple Brady/Manning years in a row and/or been consistently deep in the playoffs.

Brees is a great QB, and I think you could certainly make an argument that he's the third most talented QB in the NFL in terms of his talent/ability, but if that's the case then that top-level only has two guys on it, because Brees is just not quite on the level of Brady/Manning. I don't think anybody quakes in their boots at the sight of Drew Brees lining up under center across from them. He's very good - he had a monster season, but he's just not on the Brady/Manning level. That being said, if he puts up another two years of performance at around 85-90% of what he put up there this year, I'd be willing to revisit my stance on him.

He already has, see his previous two years:

Yards TDs QB Rating
4418 26 96.2
4423 28 89.4
5069 34 96.2

In a vacuum over the last three years Brees clearly has been top tier.

[Tigercat]

Dola, and brees is so good, according to the AP he was named their Defensive player of the year!

Saints QB Brees is AP Defensive Player of Year

By BARRY WILNER – 1 hour ago

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jLivaFXOerqIShW9wLJDWyyfEd-AD95HPHFO3

(At least the body of the article got it right.)

[DaddyTorgo]

He already has, see his previous two years:

Yards TDs QB Rating
4418 26 96.2
4423 28 89.4
5069 34 96.2

In a vacuum over the last three years Brees clearly has been top tier.

but these are clearly the 3 best of his career right? the ones before were not as spectacular, right?

i'd want to see him have like 4-5 at that level before i nudge him up to that tippity-top tier. and i'd still take brady/manning over him given the choice. but okay, maybe he at least belongs in the conversation.

[MikeVic]

but these are clearly the 3 best of his career right? the ones before were not as spectacular, right?

i'd want to see him have like 4-5 at that level before i nudge him up to that tippity-top tier. and i'd still take brady/manning over him given the choice. but okay, maybe he at least belongs in the conversation.

I'd say since 2004, Brees has had above average numbers and I personally consider him one of the top 5 QBs today.

[DanGarion]

but these are clearly the 3 best of his career right? the ones before were not as spectacular, right?

i'd want to see him have like 4-5 at that level before i nudge him up to that tippity-top tier. and i'd still take brady/manning over him given the choice. but okay, maybe he at least belongs in the conversation.
Let's also remember he played for a run first, run second, pass third offense, and he was getting dicked around by the Chargers.

Plus what's up with all this talk about playoffs, do you guys all forget Dan Marino?

[Tigercat]

but these are clearly the 3 best of his career right? the ones before were not as spectacular, right?

i'd want to see him have like 4-5 at that level before i nudge him up to that tippity-top tier. and i'd still take brady/manning over him given the choice. but okay, maybe he at least belongs in the conversation.

Two last years in SD:
3159 27 104.8(!) (Pro Bowl)
3576 24 89.2

So that is five straight years of pro bowl caliber play, and three straight years of MVP/offensive player of the year caliber play. I just find it hard to not call that top tier play, especially in the context of this thread. (QB play in a vacuum.)

[remper]

While I agree that he is definitely talented, maybe he needs to at least make it to the Super Bowl once before he's in the "tippity top tier."

Marino at least made it once.

[TroyF]

This was the easiest question I've had in awhile.

Take a guy like McNabb for ten years or watch guys like Gus Frerrote, Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Kerry Collins, and other retreads throwing for my team?

I'll take McNabb in a second and wouldn't think twice. They key, of course, is to have your team support the QB with better offensive talent.

He only goes to the championship game and chokes? Ummm, ok. How did the Patriots do the year they had Gafney as their best WR? That's right, they lost in the AFC title game. It's funny how getting a true #1 WR suddenly changes how good a QB is, huh?

Maybe some Eagles fans can help me out here, but how many pro bowl WR has Mcnabb had play with him? I'm fairly certain Hank Baskett, Jason Avant, Reggie Brown, Kevin Curtis and the like haven't had to make Hawaii plans in February.

The one year he has a great WR, he completes 64% of his passes with 31TD's against 8 INT's, goes 13-1 before he sits out the final two games (ok, he played in the first of those losses, going 3-3 with a TD pass before going to the bench to watch the other 58 minutes), goes to the Super Bowl and loses by a FG to the best team of the decade. Then his WR implodes the team the next year and people say he sucks.

If Cutler turns into McNabb when he grows up, I'll be thrilled.

Would I take it if Cutler were like McNabb? No question about it.