NBA Draft Lottery/Draft/Offseason thread.

[MrBug708]

While I hate to have a Bruin on my team, I like that pick as the best option to fill a need.

Whose the starting SG? I can't remember right now, but I would say that Holiday fell into a good situation?

[k0ruptr]

Who's left? Mills , ummm Jeff Adrien maybe? who else might make it if they get picked?

Tyrese Rice might have a shot.

[DaddyTorgo]

no tyrese rice yet

[Tigercat]

Very happy that the Hornets traded for Marcus Thornton. He will score some points in the league, will be great to see him do it home in Louisiana. If he picks up the game well enough, wouldn't be surprised to see him take Peja's place sooner rather than later. Peja is well on his way out.

[k0ruptr]

Very happy that the Hornets traded for Marcus Thornton. He will score some points in the league, will be great to see him do it home in Louisiana. If he picks up the game well enough, wouldn't be surprised to see him take Peja's place sooner rather than later. Peja is well on his way out.

I agree, I think hes a nice sleeper that could do quite well given a shot.

[Young Drachma]

They committed to play there in 2011 and they will be starting to build the arena in a few months. They've also been fighting it heavily in court (and winning). I just think if they can get Lebron, it makes a ton of sense for everyone.

LeBron I'd love to see in New Jersey. But regardless, they'll never play in Brooklyn unless it's on a basketball court outdoors.

[Eaglesfan27]

Whose the starting SG? I can't remember right now, but I would say that Holiday fell into a good situation?

Andre Iguodala. Thaddeus Young is a good young wing player at SF. Of course, they have Elton Brand at either the 4 or 5 as well.

[k0ruptr]

Mills to Portland, not bad.

[Arles]

Patty to Portland - not a bad fit. He'll get a chance at PT there.

[Radii]

You know a pick is bad when the highlights for the guy you drafted is 50% him dancing on the sidelines.

I'm assuming that's Danny Green just because ESPN loves showing highlights of Danny green dancing...

prediction: Danny Green has a better NBA career than Wayne Ellington.

[Chief Rum]

Minnesota is keeping PG Rubio and PG Flynn. They will use Flynn more as a SG.

They're going to put the 6'0" guy at SG?

Good luck with that.

[k0ruptr]

They're going to put the 6'0" guy at SG?

Good luck with that.

Lawlz

[Arles]

Suns just drafted a 6-9 Euro who can't shoot. What - there wasn't another crappy brother on the board?

[MikeVic]

Suns just drafted a 6-9 Euro who can't shoot. What - there wasn't another crappy brother on the board?

wademoore or lordscarlet?

[k0ruptr]

No Adrien or Rice, I'm sure they will be brought in and possibly sign FA deals, then off to the NBDL they go

also Dozier as the last pick. meh

[mckerney]

They're going to put the 6'0" guy at SG?

Good luck with that.

Should work well with playing Jefferson at C too.



Motto for NBA basketball in Minnesota remains, "Well, at least we have Tubby." :shrug:

Oh, and sorry the Clippers still won't be seeing the Wolves pick for the next couple years either.

[RedKingGold]

Happy to see Dante Cunningham get drafted. I doubt he'll do anything, but the way he improved over a two-year stretch was very impressive and he was a key cog to 'Nova's Final Four team.

[RainMaker]

I guess the story on Brandon Jennings is his agent was worried about him dropping real far and being "that guy" who ends up being the last one in attendance drafted. So they hid him till he was drafted.

[DaddyTorgo]

I guess the story on Brandon Jennings is his agent was worried about him dropping real far and being "that guy" who ends up being the last one in attendance drafted. So they hid him till he was drafted.

so he's a primadonna or can't stand up to the pressure?

sounds like a solid pick

[Gary Gorski]

I have to say at this point I'm not a fan of either Jennings or Rubio.

If you're going to be at the draft then be at the draft. Sit in the green room and if you don't get called early then just take the "humiliation" of being a slightly less wealthy millionaire who's not even old enough to drink legally or sit with your family up in the crowd like the guys who know they're going to be a 2nd round pick and then come up on stage when you get picked. Showing up a few picks later just made him look like a total ass IMO. I predict that experiment fails miserably and Jennings drives Skiles out of his mind. The Bucks should have taken Jrue Holiday.

Rubio I'm just sick of. First he looks like he belongs on some kind of Disney Channel show - 2nd now his dad is saying he might just stay in Europe and his mom says Minnesota is too cold for her. Who do they think they are? Maybe if they wouldn't have started making demands about who he would play for then he wouldn't have fallen to 5th. I'm just this is more posturing by them to get him to New York via trade and it probably will work which makes it worse.

[Logan]

Seems like every international draft-eligible player was in the crowd.

[Chief Rum]

Oh, and sorry the Clippers still won't be seeing the Wolves pick for the next couple years either.

All I am asking for is for you guys to stay bad for three more seasons, and then we get a lottery pick outta ya! ;)

After that, you can go be as good as you want.

[bulletsponge]

Seems like every international draft-eligible player was in the crowd.

well its the only time NBA fans will see most of them

[Gary Gorski]

BTW, as a Pistons fan - very dissapointed in the draft. For a while there I felt Joe D was one of the top execs in the league but he hasn't made a good move in forever. I think the draft was an absolute disaster. I'm sure a 6-11 sub 200 lb player who doesn't like contact is just the kind of guy who will flourish in the NBA. I don't have a problem with taking a SF if he's the best guy left but why not take the one who went next? I would much rather have taken James Johnson. In fact I would have much rather taken Jrue Holiday, moved Stuckey to the 2 and traded Rip.

Summers - not a bad pick - but I would have prefered Blair. Jerebko. Why? Why not Derrick Brown or even Jodie Meeks.

The team has three players - Stuckey, Rip and Prince (I really hope McDyess goes somewhere he can win) so lets see - we don't have a 4 or a 5 and our 1 is really more of a combo guard....I know, 3 small forwards! I'd like to think somehow Zeke snuck into the front office, tied Joe D up in a closet and made those picks but sadly I think Joe may have just gotten extremely lucky in his early dealings and has ever since been trying to duplicate those great moves and trying to look like a genius with every move leading to one bad move after the next.

[DaddyTorgo]

I have to say at this point I'm not a fan of either Jennings or Rubio.

If you're going to be at the draft then be at the draft. Sit in the green room and if you don't get called early then just take the "humiliation" of being a slightly less wealthy millionaire who's not even old enough to drink legally or sit with your family up in the crowd like the guys who know they're going to be a 2nd round pick and then come up on stage when you get picked. Showing up a few picks later just made him look like a total ass IMO. I predict that experiment fails miserably and Jennings drives Skiles out of his mind. The Bucks should have taken Jrue Holiday.

Rubio I'm just sick of. First he looks like he belongs on some kind of Disney Channel show - 2nd now his dad is saying he might just stay in Europe and his mom says Minnesota is too cold for her. Who do they think they are? Maybe if they wouldn't have started making demands about who he would play for then he wouldn't have fallen to 5th. I'm just this is more posturing by them to get him to New York via trade and it probably will work which makes it worse.

I agree with both of these points.

Ricky Rubio = Eli Manning effect? -- Suck it up and play where you were drafted you primadonna, or else go back to Spain.

[Logan]

Simmons' draft diary:

Bill Simmons' 13th annual NBA Draft Diary - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090625)

[sterlingice]

Rubio I'm just sick of. First he looks like he belongs on some kind of Disney Channel show - 2nd now his dad is saying he might just stay in Europe and his mom says Minnesota is too cold for her. Who do they think they are? Maybe if they wouldn't have started making demands about who he would play for then he wouldn't have fallen to 5th. I'm just this is more posturing by them to get him to New York via trade and it probably will work which makes it worse.

Yeah, apparently Ricky Rubio is Spanish for Eli Manning which is bitch-ese for "shut up and go where you're drafted"

EDIT: dang, DT beat me to it

SI

[sterlingice]

Simmons' draft diary:

Bill Simmons' 13th annual NBA Draft Diary - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090625)

Quality stuff again. When the man talks NBA, he's good. If only that were more than about 25% of the time because I could give a rat's ass what he thinks about the latest crappy tv show, his name dropping, and stupid pop culture digressions.

SI

[Logan]

In preparation for, and in advance of, his new book, he's been much more NBA-focused.

[wade moore]

Simmons' draft diary:

Bill Simmons' 13th annual NBA Draft Diary - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090625)


w00t..

6:26: Utah grabs my last favorite player in the draft: Eric Maynor. Why do I love him? He has been handling the rock since he was probably 2. He hasn't played a game since junior high in which the other guys didn't immediately agree, "That guy is the point guard." He's old-school. You could say he has "ownership" of that position. He's not a converted shooting guard or a long-range shooter who brings the ball up or even a short fast guy who plays point because he couldn't play anywhere else. He's a pure point. He owns it. Complete control at all times. That's why I like him. Solid pick. It's all about backups and foreign dudes from here on.

[whomario]

Seems like every international draft-eligible player was in the crowd.

might as well get a free trip to New York out of your agent if nothing else :) I know for a fact that a german player a couple years back had that written into his contract with his agency.

Rubio has been very up front about possibly staying in Europe. I wouldn´t go to just any company when i had to pay 2 years worth of salary either.
Plus that paper (Marca) citing his parents is notorious when it comes to making stuff up.

[Logan]

I think he's right in that he is a legit point, but my issue with him (and if I'm remembering correct wade, we agreed on this in the tourney thread) is that he can't shoot a lick outside of his pull up floater which I doubt will fly at the next level.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, apparently Ricky Rubio is Spanish for Eli Manning which is bitch-ese for "shut up and go where you're drafted"

EDIT: dang, DT beat me to it

SI

:D

[jbergey22]

I'm assuming that's Danny Green just because ESPN loves showing highlights of Danny green dancing...

prediction: Danny Green has a better NBA career than Wayne Ellington.

And what would motivate you to make such a statement?

[Icy]

I have to say at this point I'm not a fan of either Jennings or Rubio.

If you're going to be at the draft then be at the draft. Sit in the green room and if you don't get called early then just take the "humiliation" of being a slightly less wealthy millionaire who's not even old enough to drink legally or sit with your family up in the crowd like the guys who know they're going to be a 2nd round pick and then come up on stage when you get picked. Showing up a few picks later just made him look like a total ass IMO. I predict that experiment fails miserably and Jennings drives Skiles out of his mind. The Bucks should have taken Jrue Holiday.

Rubio I'm just sick of. First he looks like he belongs on some kind of Disney Channel show - 2nd now his dad is saying he might just stay in Europe and his mom says Minnesota is too cold for her. Who do they think they are? Maybe if they wouldn't have started making demands about who he would play for then he wouldn't have fallen to 5th. I'm just this is more posturing by them to get him to New York via trade and it probably will work which makes it worse.

I'm afraid you are right. I don't know if the problems is Rubio or his parents and/or USA agent, but they all have done things really bad and that is why he ended #5 instead of in the top 3.

Rubio has done things bad from the beginning, talking about the teams he doesn't want to go etc. Now his dad is saying that he is going to stay in Spain for a year or two... and maybe then go to the NBA... maybe.

Hope this is not Fran Vazquez 2.0 but it starts to look so.

He should have learned from Gasol, that went to Memphis with his mouth closed, played there his contract and ended in LA with a ring in his hand. Look at his brother Marc following same steps.

Rubio might be an star in Spain, but he is just another guy in USA and he should be more humble and just the thankful to the team that drafted him, insted of bitching about the weather or going to a bad team. Of course if you want to be a top 3, you will end in a bad team, that is why they have those high picks, because they sucked past year.

Maybe he is following his agent advice trying to force a trade with those comments... but anyway his reputation is going to get really damaged after that and who knows if his NBA career can end before starting.

[DaddyTorgo]

he should be more humble and just the thankful to the team that drafted him, insted of bitching about the weather or going to a bad team. Of course if you want to be a top 3, you will end in a bad team, that is why they have those high picks, because they sucked past year.


He's not alone in doing this though - you see US kids doing it too. I think it's just because these are 18-22 year old KIDS that are being put under a ton of pressure and being given the keys to more money than they've ever had. They've also been coddled for years, by coaches, by parents, by agents, by media, and hyped up into being "larger than life" in their little worlds. It's a lot to ask a kid's ego to hold that in check. Some can, but most cannot.


his reputation is going to get really damaged after that and who knows if his NBA career can end before starting.

Assuming he can perform, I don't think you have to worry about that - whatever team he ends up with the fans will embrace him and be happy - much like Giants fans with Eli who were so happy because he forced his way there to play for them. Made them feel special and wanted as fans. You know it's also a forgiving culture in that respect - there may be a bit of bad press about it initially, and definately some who hold a grudge, but by and large the media will forget about it quickly.

[Icy]

On Rubio's defense, the only one i can think about, is that Min taking another PG in the following pick didn't show a lot of confidence on him or that they have plans for him to being the franchise PG with tons of playing time, that would be the only attractive thing for a top pick that is already the leader of his Euro team.

I understand that Minessota played conservative here, two PG's in case Rubio stays in Spain but... if you had doubts, do not draft him, or just sign and trade if you think it was an once in a lifetime chance.

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah its really too bad on Rubio because I like what everyone says his style of game is. I think teams could benefit from a pass-first point guard who can make others around him better and I'm all for international players making it in the league - it only expands the popularity of the game as I'm sure Gasol did for Spain and Yao has done in China. I just am very turned off by the entire show he, his family and his agent put on. If he wanted to stay in Spain that's fine but he's trying to hold not one but multiple teams hostage with that threat and it cost him. There's a pretty sizeable money difference from #2 to #5 - why not just shut up, get drafted #2 and play? If you don't like it then go to management and say you're not happy and ask them to trade you because you will be leaving at the end of your contract.

He might get his wish of playing for NY (which I would think if the Minnesota weather is a problem wouldn't the NY weather be too?) but at least he'll be getting #5 money instead of #2. I hope the kid succeeds but all he's done is put a bulls-eye on himself with all this nonsense.

[Big Fo]

I wouldn't want to pay $6m to join the Timberwolves either. How many years are left on the contract with his current club?

Seeing Fran Vazquez's name brings back bad memories as an Orlando fan. What a disaster.

[wade moore]

I think he's right in that he is a legit point, but my issue with him (and if I'm remembering correct wade, we agreed on this in the tourney thread) is that he can't shoot a lick outside of his pull up floater which I doubt will fly at the next level.

Yup - I even said it somewhere earlier in this thread - the thing that could keep him from being successful in the NBA is certainly his shooting. He seems to have all of the other tools to be a successful PG, but even a "true PG" as it is trendy to call it these days has to be able to shoot.

[Icy]

This might support my theory about he getting upset mainly because the amount of Pg's drafted by Min and possible problems with playing time:

The 6ft-4in guard, who turned professional at age 14, said his priority was game-time rather than marketing ahead of joining the Timberwolves, whose home base lacks the profile of more cosmopolitan destinations.
"I'm thinking about to play minutes," Rubio said.
"That's my love. I want to play basketball, and if they give me minutes, I'm going to come."
BUY-OUT
Unlike other top picks, the teen's draft status has been complicated by a 4.75 million euro ($6.6 million) fee his Spanish club DKV Joventut has demanded for his release.
"Now I know where I'm going to go, so I have to talk with the team, what exactly they want about me, and if necessary, I'm going to pay the buy-out," he said. "We are closer to an agreement with the team, so we are going to see."
"That's a big surprise for me they took another point guard," Rubio said. "But we are going to see what they want."


Now this is a comment from a Min fan about the two PG draft picks, that i totally agree with:

"This will never ever work. A small PG that is supposed to play SG? Two real PG's on the court at the same time, both who need the ball in their hands? Who will get the outlet passes? Who will lead the team?
Rubio won't come over till Flynn gets traded. Taking Flynn was a slap in Rubio's face. Why pay 4 Mio on your own when the Wolves don't really trust your abilities?"

[larrymcg421]

In the idiotic modern world of sports analysis where players get judged for team accomplishments, I don't at all blame a guy for not wanting to get drafted by certain teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

When did Minnesota hire Billy Knight to run their draft? In Atlanta he tried to stockpile every small forward that was eligible, now it's point guards in Minnesota.

[DaddyTorgo]

In the idiotic modern world of sports analysis where players get judged for team accomplishments, I don't at all blame a guy for not wanting to get drafted by certain teams.

If you're going to allow people to dictate the teams they will play for though then you might as well do away with the draft altogether and just go back to a free-for-all.

[Gary Gorski]

I really think they never intended to play Rubio in the first place. Flynn is their guy and Rubio was the most valuable trade asset in the draft. Of course Kahn has to say they're not going to trade him and they will play both - he loses leverage if he says anything else. They know the Knicks want him badly - I think they can just sit on him until NY is willing to pay. Wilson Chandler would be a good target for the Wolves - Jordan Hill might be a decent guy too. I could see the Knicks doing those two for Rubio.

[Logan]

I don't think they would do that, unless they can pick up other assets for Robinson and Lee in sign-and-trades.

[Gary Gorski]

Lee they definitely should be able to get something via sign and trade - that might even be a possibility with Minnesota but the TWolves need a 2 or 3 before they need Lee. Chandler would be an ideal player for them. Robinson they might be able to get something as well.

Don't forget they still have Gallinari who is supposedly healthy and they just traded for Milicic who will give them some size at least. Lee and Robinson are almost givens to be out the door - I don't know if they can convince Minnesota to take one of them but if they can and could keep Chandler or Hill out of the deal that would be a win for NY.

[larrymcg421]

If you're going to allow people to dictate the teams they will play for though then you might as well do away with the draft altogether and just go back to a free-for-all.

I'd be perfectly happy with telling guys to shut up and go play wherever the hell they're drafted if there wasn't this big emphasis on judging individual players by team performances. But when their career is going to be examined by how well the teams they are on perform, in essence judging them for being drafted by a crappy team, then it only seems natural for players to want to choose where they go.

[Arles]

Rubio I'm just sick of. First he looks like he belongs on some kind of Disney Channel show - 2nd now his dad is saying he might just stay in Europe and his mom says Minnesota is too cold for her. Who do they think they are? Maybe if they wouldn't have started making demands about who he would play for then he wouldn't have fallen to 5th. I'm just this is more posturing by them to get him to New York via trade and it probably will work which makes it worse.
If I had to pay $4 million to come to the NBA, I'd probably be pretty picky about the team. The last thing you want to do is spend $4-5 million of yours (or your handler's) money only to play backup to another rookie for the first few seasons. Then, the media kills you for being a "bust" and you have a sabotaged career.

The Minnesota Rubio-Flynn picks smell funny and I wouldn't be in a hurry to join Minnesota either if I were Rubio. Let them sort this out and if it turns out they want to keep both Flynn and himself, why not play another year in Europe and save the buyout? If you have leverage, you are silly not to use it - especially in a situation that stinks like this Minnesota "we love you but we drafted two other PGs (Flynn, FL kid) we plan on keeping" crud. Could you imagine paying $4 million to come play for Minnesota - only to play 3rd string (or even go the D-League) because they are going with Flynn and another guy for this season?

[stevew]

There's no way I'd want to play for the Wolves either.

[Gary Gorski]

If I had to pay $4 million to come to the NBA, I'd probably be pretty picky about the team. The last thing you want to do is spend $4-5 million of yours (or your handler's) money only to play backup to another rookie for the first few seasons. Then, the media kills you for being a "bust" and you have a sabotaged career.

The Minnesota Rubio-Flynn picks smell funny and I wouldn't be in a hurry to join Minnesota either if I were Rubio. Let them sort this out and if it turns out they want to keep both Flynn and himself, why not play another year in Europe and save the buyout? If you have leverage, you are silly not to use it - especially in a situation that stinks like this Minnesota "we love you but we drafted two other PGs (Flynn, FL kid) we plan on keeping" crud. Could you imagine paying $4 million to come play for Minnesota - only to play 3rd string (or even go the D-League) because they are going with Flynn and another guy for this season?

There's ZERO chance Rubio would be sent to the NBDL - I can't even see how he would play behind Flynn and if he can't beat out Flynn then Rubio isn't anything but hype because Flynn isn't that good. In fact most of the draftees aren't that good. There's absolutely no way Rubio backs up Flynn - who are they going to play? Flynn and Telfair? Flynn and Ellington?

If he doesn't want to deal with the buyout then he should have just finished his contract and then entered the draft - not entered the draft and basically say I want teams a,b or c to trade up to #2 to pick me or else I'm not playing which is what he's doing. Or he should have just played in Europe until he's old enough to bypass the draft and then he could have hand picked his team - which of course he could do if he just didn't say anything, got drafted #2 and then left after the contract. He's pissed - he and his agent figured they played their hand correctly to force themselves to Sacramento and it backfired and cost him a few million - he lost enough money over the length of the rookie contract to more than pay for the buyout. I'm sure Blake Griffin's not thrilled to be going to such an outstanding franchise as the Clippers who have Zach Randolph, Chris Kaman and Marcus Camby all in the post already but he's not complaining or threatening to not play.

Personally I think Minnesota should have just taken Rubio and then Curry but they must like Flynn and figured they could get something more valuable than Curry in trading Rubio. Sacramento probably would have taken him if there wasn't so much drama. I mean the Kings have a huge hole at PG and chose to fill it with a shoot first, turnover prone two guard who just got thrown into the point this season in college while passing on a kid who has been hyped for over a year as a truer than true point guard with the passing likes of Maravich even when Sacramento was one of the possibly acceptable locations for him. What does that say?

[Gary Gorski]

"we love you but we drafted two other PGs (Flynn, FL kid) we plan on keeping"

BTW, Minnesota traded Calathes (FL kid) to Dallas (who is signed in Greece anyways and wouldn't be here until the 2010/11 season at earliest) so its just Rubio and Flynn they ended up with.

[Pumpy Tudors]

They committed to play there in 2011 and they will be starting to build the arena in a few months. They've also been fighting it heavily in court (and winning). I just think if they can get Lebron, it makes a ton of sense for everyone.
i heard the nets are moving to brooklyn right before the penguins move to kansas city

[DaddyTorgo]

There's ZERO chance Rubio would be sent to the NBDL - I can't even see how he would play behind Flynn and if he can't beat out Flynn then Rubio isn't anything but hype because Flynn isn't that good. In fact most of the draftees aren't that good. There's absolutely no way Rubio backs up Flynn - who are they going to play? Flynn and Telfair? Flynn and Ellington?

If he doesn't want to deal with the buyout then he should have just finished his contract and then entered the draft - not entered the draft and basically say I want teams a,b or c to trade up to #2 to pick me or else I'm not playing which is what he's doing. Or he should have just played in Europe until he's old enough to bypass the draft and then he could have hand picked his team - which of course he could do if he just didn't say anything, got drafted #2 and then left after the contract. He's pissed - he and his agent figured they played their hand correctly to force themselves to Sacramento and it backfired and cost him a few million - he lost enough money over the length of the rookie contract to more than pay for the buyout. I'm sure Blake Griffin's not thrilled to be going to such an outstanding franchise as the Clippers who have Zach Randolph, Chris Kaman and Marcus Camby all in the post already but he's not complaining or threatening to not play.

Personally I think Minnesota should have just taken Rubio and then Curry but they must like Flynn and figured they could get something more valuable than Curry in trading Rubio. Sacramento probably would have taken him if there wasn't so much drama. I mean the Kings have a huge hole at PG and chose to fill it with a shoot first, turnover prone two guard who just got thrown into the point this season in college while passing on a kid who has been hyped for over a year as a truer than true point guard with the passing likes of Maravich even when Sacramento was one of the possibly acceptable locations for him. What does that say?

best analysis ever!

[Arles]

There's ZERO chance Rubio would be sent to the NBDL - I can't even see how he would play behind Flynn and if he can't beat out Flynn then Rubio isn't anything but hype because Flynn isn't that good. In fact most of the draftees aren't that good. There's absolutely no way Rubio backs up Flynn
I could easily seeing Skiles starting Flynn. His job is on the line and he's not going to want to sit and watch an 18-year old Euro turn the ball over 5-6 times a game as he "adjusts" to the speed of the NBA. Flynn is more polished right now and the reality is that traditional NBA coaches (like Skiles) don't like playing young european guys big minutes. It's been the case with nearly every under 20 Euro import. At best, he gets 20 MPG a la Dirk.

who are they going to play? Flynn and Telfair? Flynn and Ellington?
Flynn and Brewer I would guess. Scott Skiles is not putting out 2 rookie PGs as his starting backcourt unless the owner holds a gun to his head.

If he doesn't want to deal with the buyout then he should have just finished his contract and then entered the draft - not entered the draft and basically say I want teams a,b or c to trade up to #2 to pick me or else I'm not playing which is what he's doing. Or he should have just played in Europe until he's old enough to bypass the draft and then he could have hand picked his team - which of course he could do if he just didn't say anything, got drafted #2 and then left after the contract. He's pissed - he and his agent figured they played their hand correctly to force themselves to Sacramento and it backfired and cost him a few million - he lost enough money over the length of the rookie contract to more than pay for the buyout. I'm sure Blake Griffin's not thrilled to be going to such an outstanding franchise as the Clippers who have Zach Randolph, Chris Kaman and Marcus Camby all in the post already but he's not complaining or threatening to not play.
The system is what it is. US coaches don't like playing young Euros and Euros have buyout/overseas options to counter that. If the Clippers told Blake that he was going to have to play 20 MPG behind Randolph for the first two seasons and Griffin had options to force their hand - you don't think he would?

Teams knew the leverage Rubio had and Minnesota decided to be a bonehead and draft a PG right after they drafted him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Rubio wasn't going to like that. Minnesota knowingly gambled by taking Rubio and Flynn back-to-back. If Rubio decides not to fork over his own money to join the Wolves, they lost that gamble.

Personally I think Minnesota should have just taken Rubio and then Curry but they must like Flynn and figured they could get something more valuable than Curry in trading Rubio.
Then they should trade Rubio and everything will work out. But you can't complain when an 18-year old kid with options decides not to pay $4-5 million to join a crappy Wolves team who drafted another PG right after him and may limit his minutes.

Sacramento probably would have taken him if there wasn't so much drama. I mean the Kings have a huge hole at PG and chose to fill it with a shoot first, turnover prone two guard who just got thrown into the point this season in college while passing on a kid who has been hyped for over a year as a truer than true point guard with the passing likes of Maravich even when Sacramento was one of the possibly acceptable locations for him. What does that say?
That Sacramento was scared to go with a younger PG. I don't fault Rubio for the fact that the Kings were worried about developing Rubio and instead went with the more NBA ready body of Evans. Was it Chris Paul's fault that three teams (including Utah with Williams) chose other guys before him?

[JonInMiddleGA]

But you can't complain when an 18-year old kid with options decides not to pay $4-5 million to join a crappy Wolves team who drafted another PG right after him and may limit his minutes.

Well, technically anyone can complain about it, it just doesn't make any rational sense to do so ;)

[RainMaker]

Call the kid's bluff. The goal for most young stars is to build up the years as quick as possible so they can become free agents. If Rubio wants to sit in Europe for another year and hold off on his payday (as well as potentially hurt his draft stock), I say let him.

The kid is bluffing.

[Arles]

I don't know. If he saves $5 million by staying in Europe, you could argue he's gotten himself another payday.

[RainMaker]

I don't know. If he saves $5 million by staying in Europe, you could argue he's gotten himself another payday.
It's still delaying a year till he gets the real payday. All that matters to young players (especially guys Rubio's age) are reaching that free agent time when they can cash in. Then we're talking $10m+ a year guaranteed.

If the kid wants to stay in Spain another year and risk adding a year on to the wait, then so be it. It's also a risk to his future draft stock, a huge PR hit, and the pressure of not wanting to get hurt.

Maybe he does it, but I think the T-Wolves are the ones with the leverage, not Rubio.

[Logan]

This isn't the NFL. No one makes enough in their rookie contract where you would be really risking anything by staying in college/overseas a year. Plus I'm guessing he's not exactly slumming it over there, in terms of quality of life or salary.

[Icy]

Wolves GM talked, seems they are fine waiting for Rubio a year or two...

http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/wolves/2009/06/26/a-post-draft-night-letter-from-david-kahn/

[wade moore]

It's still delaying a year till he gets the real payday. All that matters to young players (especially guys Rubio's age) are reaching that free agent time when they can cash in. Then we're talking $10m+ a year guaranteed.

If the kid wants to stay in Spain another year and risk adding a year on to the wait, then so be it. It's also a risk to his future draft stock, a huge PR hit, and the pressure of not wanting to get hurt.

Maybe he does it, but I think the T-Wolves are the ones with the leverage, not Rubio.

This isn't the NFL. No one makes enough in their rookie contract where you would be really risking anything by staying in college/overseas a year. Plus I'm guessing he's not exactly slumming it over there, in terms of quality of life or salary.

If I understand the NBA rules correctly, I think what RM is talking about here is that Rubio will have to live out a rookie contract before he gets his payday. Whether that starts this year, or two years from now - it's the same length. So, he's delaying potential money by not signing.

[Gary Gorski]

I could easily seeing Skiles starting Flynn. His job is on the line and he's not going to want to sit and watch an 18-year old Euro turn the ball over 5-6 times a game as he "adjusts" to the speed of the NBA. Flynn is more polished right now and the reality is that traditional NBA coaches (like Skiles) don't like playing young european guys big minutes. It's been the case with nearly every under 20 Euro import. At best, he gets 20 MPG a la Dirk.

Well Skiles will sit his rookie PG - but his is Jennings and that will be fun because Jennings is going to drive Skiles crazy. When the T-wolves do hire their coach he'll probably get at least one free pass considering the team is so young. And Flynn is a turnover waiting to happen until he learns to play under control.

The system is what it is. US coaches don't like playing young Euros and Euros have buyout/overseas options to counter that. If the Clippers told Blake that he was going to have to play 20 MPG behind Randolph for the first two seasons and Griffin had options to force their hand - you don't think he would?

Teams knew the leverage Rubio had and Minnesota decided to be a bonehead and draft a PG right after they drafted him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Rubio wasn't going to like that. Minnesota knowingly gambled by taking Rubio and Flynn back-to-back. If Rubio decides not to fork over his own money to join the Wolves, they lost that gamble.

I think the problem is that more often than not young Euros don't look very good playing in the NBA. I don't think any coach held the likes of Darko Milicic back nor do I recall anyone having much trouble getting Gasol on the floor. That's a talent issue - not a Euro issue.

Frankly I don't think that should be a hostage chip for a European player. Why should a US college player have to give up his eligibility to enter the draft but a European player can hold onto his backup plan in case things go south?

Then they should trade Rubio and everything will work out. But you can't complain when an 18-year old kid with options decides not to pay $4-5 million to join a crappy Wolves team who drafted another PG right after him and may limit his minutes.

I might buy that argument if a) he wasn't equally willing to join equally crappy Sacramento and New York teams and b) if someone was actually going to hold back his minutes. Nobody's guaranteed him anything one way or the other - he could just as easily start the season behind Duhon in NY or could have been behind Udrih in Sacramento.


That Sacramento was scared to go with a younger PG. I don't fault Rubio for the fact that the Kings were worried about developing Rubio and instead went with the more NBA ready body of Evans. Was it Chris Paul's fault that three teams (including Utah with Williams) chose other guys before him?

Evans left after his frosh year - he's a year older than Rubio so I don't think age had anything to do with it - especially when one of Rubio's supposed big selling points is that he's been playing professionally for four years. Evans isn't even a real point guard. I think the only reason Sacramento passed on him was because he and his agent screwed around so much between the demands, the buyout, the back and forth about coming to the NBA, the junk he talked about the Kings facilities - he acted like a primadonna from start to finish. I don't know of any outlet that thought Rubio wasn't the 2nd best talent in the draft. Its within his rights to use his contract status as leverage...but he leveraged himself 3 picks lower and a few million less to a bad team who now has the leverage of his NBA future in their hands.

Minnesota will trade him because they know they don't have any other choice but they better make the Knicks pay for it. As nice as it would be for one team in one sport to tell one of these draftees "forget it, we drafted you, you play for us or nobody" at the end of the day none of them will ever do it because nobody can afford to simply waste those picks. At least he wasn't able to force the trade before hand so he'll lose out on a few million for the whole charade.

[jbergey22]

Well the Twolves were trying to trade into the #2 spot to draft Rubio so Id assume they really like him. I am honestly not sure what is going on at this point. I think they took Flynn based on value however it seems Rubio is the one they plan on trading so I just dont get it. Twolves had so many chances with this draft and it looks like they arent getting anything but cash and replacement picks when they had a chance to add a lot to the team.

Last night it seemed as though they had a plan now after hearing things today it seems they were just caught off guard.

[Gary Gorski]

Wolves GM talked, seems they are fine waiting for Rubio a year or two...

On the Wolves » Blog Archive » A post-draft night letter from David Kahn (http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/wolves/2009/06/26/a-post-draft-night-letter-from-david-kahn/)

Interesting...I think its just posturing but he does say in the piece "He will be our starting point guard here the moment he walks through our front door. We may have to wait a year, or even two, but he is worth the wait"

So there's no PT issue, no issue of which guard spot he would have to play - if Kahn does call his bluff I will have mega-respect for him but I could just as easily see Rubio showing up and basically trying to force a trade once he does get here.

I really hope Rubio just decides to suck it up and play for the team that drafted him and do his best because he could be a really, really fun player to watch and the T-Wolves could turn into a decent team with him, Jefferson and Love.

[Radii]

And what would motivate you to make such a statement?

Just my gut feeling from watching Carolina really. Ellington can be a good scorer, mainly as a jump shooter, and he ended up being a surprisingly good rebounder, which hopefully helps him out.

Green is a better defender, better shot blocker, better all around athlete and appears on the floor to work harder in every area of the game. Works harder to get back on defense, to get around screens, etc. I just think that *unless* Ellington develops into a great NBA scorer, which I would love to see but am not holding my breath, Danny Green offers more to a team.

Also, I think the perception with Green is that he was just a utility guy while Ellington was the star shooter, but Green was every bit the shooter Ellington was last year. Green shot 47.1% from the field, 85% from the line, and 41.8% from the 3 point line. Ellington shot 48.3% from the field, 77% from the line, 41.7% from 3. Ellington was 85-204 from 3 on the season, Green was 77-184.

Green's offensive output was almost equal to Ellington, and Green got twice as many steals and 10 times as many blocked shots. Green blocked more shots than anyone on the team except for Ed Davis, who is a shot blocking machine. 11 more blocks than the 6'8" PF Deon Thompson and 40 more than Hansbrough.


I like them both obviously and want all the Tar Heels to succeed in the NBA, but I really think Danny Green is more likely to have a solid, successful career than Ellington.

[Logan]

If I understand the NBA rules correctly, I think what RM is talking about here is that Rubio will have to live out a rookie contract before he gets his payday. Whether that starts this year, or two years from now - it's the same length. So, he's delaying potential money by not signing.

Yeah I followed. My point was that, contrary to the NFL where coming out early nets you that huge contract, him staying in Spain, where he is earning a salary that I'm guessing (correct me if I'm wrong) is fairly substantial anyway, pushing his deal by a year could be very much worth it if he feels that by waiting it out, he'll end up in a situation where he will better position himself for that second contract (franchise, city, teammates, etc).

It's not like he's deciding between going to Minnesota or spending another year on campus, earning nothing and attending classes.

[Arles]

Well Skiles will sit his rookie PG - but his is Jennings and that will be fun because Jennings is going to drive Skiles crazy.
Yeah, not sure where Skiles and Minnesota came from. :p Still, I think Rubio is way too raw to get more than 25 MPG in the NBA right now - especially if you have other options.

I think the problem is that more often than not young Euros don't look very good playing in the NBA. I don't think any coach held the likes of Darko Milicic back nor do I recall anyone having much trouble getting Gasol on the floor. That's a talent issue - not a Euro issue.
I was talking about under 21 Euros. Gasol was 21 and fairly polished when he came here. The younger guys barely play - Belinelli got 7 MPG, Dirk got 20 MPG, Biedrins got 12, Pietrus got 14, Turkoglu got 16. All these guys were under 21 when they came over and all seem to be pretty solid players. Yet, none could break 20 MPG their first season. Usually it's because their bodies just aren't developed enough to take the pounding at 17-20 years old.

Frankly I don't think that should be a hostage chip for a European player. Why should a US college player have to give up his eligibility to enter the draft but a European player can hold onto his backup plan in case things go south?
The difference is that Europe is a pro league and US college is amateur. It's apples and oranges.


Evans left after his frosh year - he's a year older than Rubio so I don't think age had anything to do with it - especially when one of Rubio's supposed big selling points is that he's been playing professionally for four years.
I said "NBA ready body", it wasn't about age. Evans is 6-4, 225. Rubio is 6-4, 185.

Evans isn't even a real point guard. I think the only reason Sacramento passed on him was because he and his agent screwed around so much between the demands, the buyout, the back and forth about coming to the NBA, the junk he talked about the Kings facilities - he acted like a primadonna from start to finish. I don't know of any outlet that thought Rubio wasn't the 2nd best talent in the draft. Its within his rights to use his contract status as leverage...but he leveraged himself 3 picks lower and a few million less to a bad team who now has the leverage of his NBA future in their hands.
And if he's not happy with his status after the process, he can go back and play professionally in Europe (notice I didn't say he can go back as an amateur to Europe).

Minnesota will trade him because they know they don't have any other choice but they better make the Knicks pay for it.
Of course they have a choice, they could move Flynn.

As nice as it would be for one team in one sport to tell one of these draftees "forget it, we drafted you, you play for us or nobody" at the end of the day none of them will ever do it because nobody can afford to simply waste those picks. At least he wasn't able to force the trade before hand so he'll lose out on a few million for the whole charade.
So, let's say a 19-year old US player signs a deal in Spain to play for 2-3 seasons. Then, one year in, he decides to enter the NBA draft - isn't he doing the exact things to the Spanish team that you are lamenting that Rubio is doing to the NBA? Once you go pro, all bets are off. The system allows you to get drafted as a european pro, decide you don't like the situation and allow you to return to europe. It also allows for buyouts in the event you sign with Europe and want to play in the NBA before your contract ends.

The reality is if Rubio goes back to Europe, the Wolves still own his rights. So, it's not like they get "screwed" and he enters back into the draft pool next season. IMO, this is about as fair as you can get. If you are an amateur and get drafted, you have fewer options than a current professional who gets drafted and has a current agreement. It's the risk you take by drafting a professional in another league over an amateur.

[Chief Rum]

We should totally settle this debate with a text sim fight.

[RomaGoth]

We should totally settle this debate with a text sim fight.

well played.

[Arles]

Nah, my thing is once you become a professional, you should have more options than an amateur. If the NBA wants to require that once a player is drafted into the NBA they have to play - they can try. But, just be ready for Euros to start putting in enormous buy out clauses to stick it to those NBA teams.

[mckerney]

Ugh if Kahn is serious about not trading Rubio. Although it is kind of nice that it looks like his whining won't get him his way, I wish they could get something for him. At this point I'd almost prefer he stay in Spain, this team will be brutal if he comes in as a starting point guard and they try to play Flynn at 2, while still not having anyone to play 3 or 5. Looks like it'll be at least another 5 year before this team is worth caring about again.

[whomario]

Just so it´s on record here : It is incredibly ridiculous that NBA teams are allowed to pay 3 mios to buy a late first rounder or even a 2nd round pick (the Rockets paid 2,5 for Taylor ...) but only 500K to buy out a European that they drafted 5th. WTF ???
That right there is the single most ilogical thing in relation to Draft rules in the NBA.

btw : http://twitter.com/Kevin_love

I wonder why no one from the Wolves has told him to shut the hell up yet ? It´s like Shaq on speed that babbling of his about things you better should keep your mouth shut about for a while as a player ... But it´s great entertainment :popcorn: On a serious note : They should fly the guy to spain ASAP, his personality might just enable him to convince Rubio to come over.

and for the most obscure pick of the night, Christian Eyenga : If nothing else the Cavs have found themselves a potential All Star, as a slam dunk participant : YouTube - Christian Eyenga: Amazing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTew2KzGH94)
weak competition and all, but that´s some major hops ... He´s played mostly for Rubio´s club´s "farm team" in spains 3rd division.

[sterlingice]

Just so it´s on record here : It is incredibly ridiculous that NBA teams are allowed to pay 3 mios to buy a late first rounder or even a 2nd round pick (the Rockets paid 2,5 for Taylor ...) but only 500K to buy out a European that they drafted 5th. WTF ???
That right there is the single most ilogical thing in relation to Draft rules in the NBA.

Where did you see the numbers for how much the Rockets paid for their draft picks? I was trying to find that last night and all I saw was "cash considerations"

SI

[BishopMVP]

Just so it´s on record here : It is incredibly ridiculous that NBA teams are allowed to pay 3 mios to buy a late first rounder or even a 2nd round pick (the Rockets paid 2,5 for Taylor ...) but only 500K to buy out a European that they drafted 5th. WTF ???
That right there is the single most ilogical thing in relation to Draft rules in the NBA.The 500k limit is in there to keep European teams from putting in huge buyouts similar to soccer transfer fees.

[RainMaker]

How long does Minnesota retain the rights to Rubio?

[Atocep]

How long does Minnesota retain the rights to Rubio?

Until they trade them away.

[Icy]

On an unexpected twist, the Spanish press is saying that Real Madrid has offered to pay Ricky his buyout if he stays in Spain and signs with them for more than one year.

Not sure if you guys are following soccer, but R.Madrid got a new owner that has expended already over $150Million on buying the contracts of two soccer players this month, they want to do the same with their basketball team, buying the best players (that want to play in Europe) to create an all star team.

This makes things more complicated, as it could be tempting for Rubio to take that offer, play in a top Euro team and league contender for a huge contract, and then in two years, to go to the NBA.

[Big Fo]

omg Kevin Love's twitter is awesome. When and if Rubio signs for them they are my Western Conference team.

[Gary Gorski]

Until they trade them away.

Which truly does make this interesting - the Wolves are going to be a bad team regardless of whether Rubio is playing for them or not. They can essentially let Rubio continue to develop in Spain for two years while they attempt to develop Flynn here. If Flynn looks good then they've got a nice young PG to trade that they've showcased for two seasons and could potentially get a very nice return for him and then bring Rubio in to run the team once its ready to compete.

The problem with trying to trade Flynn right now is that I don't think anyone is that high on him. Is he that much better than Jennings or Holliday? The Knicks could have had either of them at 8. Rubio is by far the most talented PG in the draft and they could get some very nice pieces for him if they move him - that's why I say they're stuck having to trade him - unless of course they're willing to sit on him in Europe.

[RainMaker]

I actually think it works out in Minnesota's favor if he does stay in Europe for a couple years. They don't have to start the clock on him becoming an unrestricted free agent till he's 20 and he'll still be developing. I love how Kahn is calling their bluff and going around to all the media outlets and telling them that they have no problem with Rubio staying in Europe for a couple years.

[Big Fo]

It seems likely that Hedo Turkoglu will be playing for someone other than the Magic next season.

Magic General Manager Otis Smith told the Sentinel that he made Turkoglu a "decent" initial offer before receiving Turkoglu's official letter this week notifying the team he had opted out of his contract.

Smith didn't go into details, but said that Thursday's acquisition of Carter — an eight-time all-star — will make re-signing Turkoglu something of a long-shot.

"It would be hard," Smith said.

If the end effect is losing Lee/Alston/Battie/Turk for Carter/Anderson then I'm not as happy with the Carter trade.

[sterlingice]

If the end effect is losing Lee/Alston/Battie/Turk for Carter/Anderson then I'm not as happy with the Carter trade.

I'm not sure that's an entirely fair as it wasn't a guarantee Turk was staying put as is.

SI

[Arles]

I actually think it works out in Minnesota's favor if he does stay in Europe for a couple years. They don't have to start the clock on him becoming an unrestricted free agent till he's 20 and he'll still be developing. I love how Kahn is calling their bluff and going around to all the media outlets and telling them that they have no problem with Rubio staying in Europe for a couple years.
Yeah, I think everyone wins with Rubio staying in Spain another year or two.

Phoenix news sources are now reporting the Golden State deal for Amare as dead since Golden State wont part with either Steph Curry or Anthony Randolph in a deal. I still don't understand everyone's love affair with Curry - he's a nice complimentary piece, but he won't ever be able to guard 2s and it would be crazy to have Nash/Barbosa and Curry in the same backcourt. In some ways I hope Phoenix moves Amare and starts over, but if it's just for another glorified Shaq poo-poo platter, they may as well keep him. Once the buyout for Wallace goes through, they should be under the tax with a ton of space in 2010.

[Arles]

A Phoenix beat writer just posted this update:

When Minnesota picked Jonny Flynn with the sixth pick Thursday night, the Suns basketball operations office erupted in elation audible from a floor below. They had their guy ... or at least they thought they did and still believe they do.

The Suns had an agreement in principle with Golden State about a deal that would send Amaré Stoudemire to the Warriors for Andris Biedrins, Brandan Wright, Marco Belinelli and the No. 7 pick. It was the Suns' understanding that the Warriors were drafting Curry for them.

But with Biedrins' base-year compensation status, a deal can't be completed immediately because his cap number is lower than his actual $9 million salary until July. The Suns were expecting to have to wait about two weeks (until July 8) for the deal to be completed.

That is a lot of time, especially when there already is a lot of talk out of Golden State about the Warriors keeping Curry. That about-face apparently would nix the deal for the Suns.
I don't think we'll be seeing many Phoenix-Golden State deals from here on out if this ends up being the case. As much as I've bagged on Curry, if you have a deal in principle (only waiting because of NBA rules for BYC) then reneg later that night - I doubt that helps your credibility in the league (esp with Phoenix).

[DaddyTorgo]

It seems likely that Hedo Turkoglu will be playing for someone other than the Magic next season.



If the end effect is losing Lee/Alston/Battie/Turk for Carter/Anderson then I'm not as happy with the Carter trade.

but if turk was leaving anyways presumably then you have to split that off of that

[Neon_Chaos]

I actually think that Turk was going to opt out no matter what. It's all about leverage and getting the most bang for your buck.
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[stevew]

yeah, it was common knowledge he was going to opt out. They probably figured it's easier to trade contracts and overpay Vince for one extra year, as opposed to giving Hedo something rediculous like 5/65. They already have Lewis retarded overpaid for the long term.

I actually like the move for the Magic, you can get a lot of guys who do stuff like Hedo. Maybe not as good, but they'll certainly not cost you a super long deal.

[whomario]

The 500k limit is in there to keep European teams from putting in huge buyouts similar to soccer transfer fees.

That´s a pretty arogant asumption by the league that the NBA would influence this and not the big Euro teams as it is the case in reality.
There´s gonna be big and huge buyout regardless of the NBA rules in this matter ...

btw : Has anyone considered that it would be followed by huge legal problems and giving Joventud (his current team) a lot of leverage in keeping the buyout as high as it is ("wait, we wanted to cooperate, but then he started breaking his contract time after time") if he attended a press conference with his new team without having his buyout reolved ?
Theres a case of a spanish footballer in 05/06 who did just that and it ended up with him sitting out his contract (with a huge buyout) and then the new team having to pay 5 mio after his contract was up, as ordered by a judge.

[Icy]

That´s a pretty arogant asumption by the league that the NBA would influence this and not the big Euro teams as it is the case in reality.
There´s gonna be big and huge buyout regardless of the NBA rules in this matter ...

btw : Has anyone considered that it would be followed by huge legal problems and giving Joventud (his current team) a lot of leverage in keeping the buyout as high as it is ("wait, we wanted to cooperate, but then he started breaking his contract time after time") if he attended a press conference with his new team without having his buyout reolved ?
Theres a case of a spanish footballer in 05/06 who did just that and it ended up with him sitting out his contract (with a huge buyout) and then the new team having to pay 5 mio after his contract was up, as ordered by a judge.

That is why it's said that Rubio didn't attend the Min presentation, that could be an issue with his current lawsuit.

[Karlifornia]

Dear Warriors,

Don't trade for Amare. I'd rather watch a 30 win team for another season than have him and his soon to be stupid contract on the books.

Thanks,
Karl

[stevew]

Hey Karl,

If that's not a bad enough thought, think about cringing every time you see Amar'e spelled out.

Thanks

Stev'e

[Karlifornia]

Hey Karl,

If that's not a bad enough thought, think about cringing every time you see Amar'e spelled out.

Thanks

Stev'e

Dear Stev'e,

Is his official name Amar'e Stoudemir'e?

Appreciatively,
Kar'l

[BishopMVP]

That´s a pretty arrogant assumption by the league that the NBA would influence this and not the big Euro teams as it is the case in reality.
There´s gonna be big and huge buyout regardless of the NBA rules in this matter ...As long as NBA teams are capped it effectively limits the amount of a buyout to roughly equal to what the player will earn from his rookie contract. If the equivalent of LeBron was playing from Europe, the max buyout would still be 7-8 million, while if NBA teams had no cap theoretically a
Euro team could put a 100 million+ buyout on him. The NBA, for all its faults, doesn't want to end up with a draft similar to baseball where only the biggest markets can afford a top player.

It's also just smart economics from the NBA's point of view. Why bother negotiating with and paying a European team when you can force the player to do it themselves?

[BishopMVP]

Dear Stev'e,

Is his official name Amar'e Stoudemir'e?

Appreciatively,
Kar'lMy friend teaches a girl named L-a (Ladashay). I'm naming my kid J' (Japostraphay).

[DaddyTorgo]

wouldn't that be La-a (l a dash a)

[RainMaker]

The problem for Rubio is that if he stays in Europe for two years, he doesn't become a free agent till he's 26 or so. Otherwise he becomes one at 24. That's two years of a big payday in his prime. Lets say he's as good as advertised and makes $12 million a year. He'd essentially be giving up $24 million by staying in Spain. Something he won't be able to make in these two years in Spain.

[Arles]

Most deals are 4-year deals with a qualifying offer (that no good player every plays for) on the 4th. So, if Rubio goes to Europe for 2 years, he will be back in summer of 2011 at 20 years old. That means he will make $4-6 million each year until he's 24 and then he will get his first non-rookie deal.

Here's another way to spin it. Rubio at 24 is likely to be a lot more polished and will probably be a better player. If you were Rubio, wouldn't you rather have no money owed for a buyout and be going into your first major contract after your 24th birthday? Instead of forking out $4-5 mil and going into it after your 22nd birthday. There's a chance he's a $10 mil+ guy at 24-25, that's pretty doubtful at 22.

[Big Fo]

I hadn't thought of that it way Arles, it's a very complicated situation for Rubio.

[Atocep]

Most deals are 4-year deals with a qualifying offer (that no good player every plays for) on the 4th. So, if Rubio goes to Europe for 2 years, he will be back in summer of 2011 at 20 years old. That means he will make $4-6 million each year until he's 24 and then he will get his first non-rookie deal.

Here's another way to spin it. Rubio at 24 is likely to be a lot more polished and will probably be a better player. If you were Rubio, wouldn't you rather have no money owed for a buyout and be going into your first major contract after your 24th birthday? Instead of forking out $4-5 mil and going into it after your 22nd birthday. There's a chance he's a $10 mil+ guy at 24-25, that's pretty doubtful at 22.

I don't think its a stretch to imagine a team giving him that much at 22. He doesn't necessarily have to be worth that much on the floor right then and there. If he's shown promise I'd be willing to bet some team would pay him the max based on potential and marketing possibilities.

[RainMaker]

Most deals are 4-year deals with a qualifying offer (that no good player every plays for) on the 4th. So, if Rubio goes to Europe for 2 years, he will be back in summer of 2011 at 20 years old. That means he will make $4-6 million each year until he's 24 and then he will get his first non-rookie deal.

Here's another way to spin it. Rubio at 24 is likely to be a lot more polished and will probably be a better player. If you were Rubio, wouldn't you rather have no money owed for a buyout and be going into your first major contract after your 24th birthday? Instead of forking out $4-5 mil and going into it after your 22nd birthday. There's a chance he's a $10 mil+ guy at 24-25, that's pretty doubtful at 22.

Isn't it 5 years before you can become an unrestricted free agent?

[Arles]

You have a qualifying offer going into your 5th season. Most Teams give a long term extension to players instead of having them take the qualifying as they will be a FA the next season.

Outside of maybe Lebron, I can't think of anyone who made $10+ million before the age of 23-24. Maybe Rubio will be good, but it would take a lot from a NBA GM to sign a 22-year old PG to a $10+ million deal long term. Maybe if he was 6-9, 260 and moved like a PG - but at 6-4, 200, I just don't see until until Ricky's done it well for 2-3 years in the NBA. You may draft a 6-4 Euro on potential, but you're not giving him a 5-year deal averaging more than $10 mil per season on potential. Not even Isiah would do that.

[RainMaker]

You have a qualifying offer going into your 5th season. Most Teams give a long term extension to players instead of having them take the qualifying as they will be a FA the next season.

Outside of maybe Lebron, I can't think of anyone who made $10+ million before the age of 23-24. Maybe Rubio will be good, but it would take a lot from a NBA GM to sign a 22-year old PG to a $10+ million deal long term. Maybe if he was 6-9, 260 and moved like a PG - but at 6-4, 200, I just don't see until until Ricky's done it well for 2-3 years in the NBA. You may draft a 6-4 Euro on potential, but you're not giving him a 5-year deal averaging more than $10 mil per season on potential. Not even Isiah would do that.

Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudamire, Luol Deng, Tony Parker, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, Lamar Odom, Zach Randolph, Baron Davis are some. With the league rules on age and the lack of players going as high as Rubio at that age, it's tough to say what he'd be worth at 22.

I went back to 1999 and pulled all the top 5 picks. Of those that would have been eligible to receive extensions before the age you specified above, 8 of the 14 got contracts over $10 million dollars. Most others received contracts that paid them millions a year. The odds are heavily in Rubio's favor here, especially if they believe he is as good as advertised.

[Icy]

I think it's all a big poker hand.

Minnesota wants to trade him as their man is Flynn, Rubio was drafted because it was too good at #5 or #6 to pass on him and let the next team to pick him at #7.

They also know Rubio doesn't want to play there, but they are saying that they will play both pgs and that they will patiently wait for Rubio just to keep an strong hand vs other teams interested on the trade.

Rubio is fighting with DKV to lower his buyout, by saying that he is going to be back to honour that contract is also a way to put the pressure on his old team. They need the cash, in fact they have already deposited the contract buyout clause in the Spanish IRS to cover the huge debts they have. They really need that money and they do not want Ricky back and to get free for nothing in two years. Also the fans could be pissed at him for trying to get out of the team and could be a bad marketing thing if he gets back.

I guess nothing will be clear until closer to the start of the season.

[Arles]

How many of those guys listed were under 6-5 and weighed 200 pounds? You're going to pay Amare, Bosh, Carmelo, Howard and so forth on size. Parker is the closest one and he averaged 16 points and 5 assists in his 2nd season (won the title) to earn that. Davis was also a 18-9 guy when he got his extension.

Big guys get signed for potential. PGs get signed for production. If Rubio can average 17 points and 9 assists at the age of 22, he will get big money. I just don't see him doing that. I could, however, see him doing that at 24. That's why it's no big deal to stay in Spain another year or two.

[Gary Gorski]

That's why it's no big deal to stay in Spain another year or two.

Theres three downsides to him staying in Spain. #1 is that he either gets hurt or does not continue to develop. No matter where he plays the hype is just crazy on him and if he doesn't live up to it over there he may not get to come in as a starter here even.

The second is at the end of his career. If he doesn't get his first big contract until he's 24 - say a 5 year deal - that puts him at 29 to get his next contract - another 5 year deal puts him at 34. If the first big contract is a 6 year one he's 30 going into his next contract and once any player hits their mid 30s I don't think many teams are going to be waiting with long term offers.

If his contracts start at 22 - 5 year deals put him at 27 and 32. At 32 he probably could get one more 5 year deal - not likely to happen at 34.

Third is that there's no telling how long Minnesota will be bad. The sooner he starts that contract the sooner he can get away from Minnesota.

FWIW NBA 1st round picks get 2 year guaranteed contracts now. The team has options for a 3rd and 4th season and then as mentioned the player can become a restricted free agent after his 4th - at that time his team can sign him to a long term deal or present a qualifying offer - the qualifying offer (if taken) is one year and then the player is a UFA. If he signs an offer sheet while he's a RFA his team can match it so if he wants out of Minnesota and assuming Minny will never trade him he's got to give them 5 years - so again the later he starts that contract it could hamper him trying to get one last deal at the end of his career.

[RainMaker]

How many of those guys listed were under 6-5 and weighed 200 pounds? You're going to pay Amare, Bosh, Carmelo, Howard and so forth on size. Parker is the closest one and he averaged 16 points and 5 assists in his 2nd season (won the title) to earn that. Davis was also a 18-9 guy when he got his extension.

Big guys get signed for potential. PGs get signed for production. If Rubio can average 17 points and 9 assists at the age of 22, he will get big money. I just don't see him doing that. I could, however, see him doing that at 24. That's why it's no big deal to stay in Spain another year or two.

You keep narrowing your criteria down farther and farther to try and make your point. First it's no young players get huge contracts, now it's no young players who are his exact size and weight get big contracts. Fact is that if he can even remotely hold his own in the NBA by the time he is 22, he'll be able to cash in. Rubio is also not your typical 18 year old as he's been a professional for years and has played alongside NBA players on international teams.

NBA General Managers understand the difference in a 22 year old and a 24 year old. In fact, the 22 year old may have more value as he's younger and hasn't reached his full potential yet. Point Guards have only recently come in vogue in the NBA and we've seen a lot of them cash in already or plan to in the coming years. It's a point guard league as opposed to a big guy league that it was at the beginning of the decade.

I don't think staying in Spain is bad developmentally. But if Rubio thinks he will be a star, he will make more money over the course of his career by playing in the NBA right now. He'll be able to sign 2 big free agent contracts in his lifetime as opposed to maybe only one if he waits two years. This is the reason that all the young stars are signing shorter extensions so that they can hit free agency at a younger age (Lebron, Wade, Bosh).

But if he's unsure how he'll stack up in the NBA, then he can hang out in Spain and save a couple million. I still think he runs the risk of having huge expectations over there and anything short of him being a star will raise a lot of questions. It would decrease his trade value (if he truly doesn't want to play in Minnesota) and hurt his overall stock. Not to mention the fact that he won't be developing at an NBA level.

I personally feel the best situation for Rubio would be a Flynn-free Minnesota. He'd be able to start right away and develop on a team with zero expectations. He would be able to hone his skills against NBA talent on a daily basis. Staying in Spain is the best option for the T-Wolves as they can let him develop for 2 years without having to pay him a dime (or lose time before he's a free agent).

[Arles]

Worst case (baring injury), he goes to Spain for two years and comes over at age 20 in 2011. He gets his 2 guaranteed, 2 option deal and then gets extended (no way they make him play for the qualifying offer) for 5 years with an opt out after 3-4 years at age 24. So, he will probably be able to opt out at age 27 or 28 and get another 5 year deal (a la Amare/Lebron).

So, it comes down to whether his 2nd deal is at age 28 or age 26-27. My guess is that if he "starts the clock" now, he will be pretty raw the first two years. This will probably impact his first extension. Even if he recovers in years 3-4, I don't think he makes as much at age 22 for his second deal than if he was more polished at age 24. Plus, his second deal will have an opt out after 3-4 seasons so age won't matter much at that point (27 or 28 vs. 26 or 27). History has shown PGs have a pretty long career if they are good so I don't think teams will mind giving him a nice contract at age 28.

My big fear with him is that he comes over and struggles for two seasons and ends up getting shoe-horned as a backup PG. There's not a lot of patience for raw European guys. If they bomb out after a few seasons, most get tossed aside. If I were him, I'd want to be 100% sure I can play a quality 20 minutes in the NBA from day 1 to maximize my chance at being a star. I also would much rather play for the Knicks instead of the Wolves - I'd have a much better chance at a big contract with NY exposure.

[RainMaker]

I wouldn't rather play for the Knicks right now. There will be a ton of pressure on him and that team has zero talent. There are no expectations in Minnesota and at least he has a couple guys who can put the ball in the hoop.

[Arles]

You keep narrowing your criteria down farther and farther to try and make your point. First it's no young players get huge contracts, now it's no young players who are his exact size and weight get big contracts. Fact is that if he can even remotely hold his own in the NBA by the time he is 22, he'll be able to cash in. Rubio is also not your typical 18 year old as he's been a professional for years and has played alongside NBA players on international teams.
OK, tell me one guy under 6-5 who's gotten a big 2nd deal with no production. If it's that "narrow", you should have no problem coming up with guys averaging 8+, 5+ like Nene did and getting $11+ a season on potential. If Rubio ends his first contract at 8 points, 5 assists and 22 MPG (a la Nene), it's not likely he gets $12 mil a season. It would be unprecedented for a young PG.

If he stays in Spain for another season or two, he will be better equipped to play in the NBA. And, if by doing that, he ends up in a better situation when he does arrive - all the better.

This is the reason that all the young stars are signing shorter extensions so that they can hit free agency at a younger age (Lebron, Wade, Bosh).
Just an FYI, but if Rubio plays two years in Spain and comes over, he will be younger than Wade was for his first season with Miami. Rubio would do exactly what Wade did in play his first 3 seasons on the initial deal and then sign a long term extension for big money with an opt out clause after 3 years. Wade is now finishing his 6th full season and getting ready for his third contract at age 27. Rubio would be in the exact same spot if he spent two years in Spain.

I personally feel the best situation for Rubio would be a Flynn-free Minnesota. He'd be able to start right away and develop on a team with zero expectations. He would be able to hone his skills against NBA talent on a daily basis. Staying in Spain is the best option for the T-Wolves as they can let him develop for 2 years without having to pay him a dime (or lose time before he's a free agent).
The best thing for Rubio is to go to Spain for a year or two and force a trade to Mike D'Antoni's Knick team. That's a system where he would flourish and getting a little more polish in the process won't hurt. Plus, if he does anything to back the NY hype, he will get top dollar from them on his first extension. There will be more pressure on NY to justify the price/hype of Rubio than there will be on Rubio to be great. If Rubio is just average, NY will spin him as the next Nash and he will cash in.

He could be the next Nash in Minnesota and he still might not get a big extension from the Wolves. I don't see the economy getting any better up there in the next few years and they will already be looking at big money for their other young players (Love, Jefferson, Flynn and maybe even Gomes).

[RainMaker]

OK, tell me one guy under 6-5 who's gotten a big 2nd deal with no production. If it's that "narrow", you should have no problem coming up with guys averaging 8+, 5+ like Nene did and getting $11+ a season on potential. If Rubio ends his first contract at 8 points, 5 assists and 22 MPG (a la Nene), it's not likely he gets $12 mil a season. It would be unprecedented for a young PG.
Devin Harris. He didn't get $11 million (very few do) but he cashed in nicely at around $9 million a season when he was averaging 10 points and 3 assists a game. Udrih and Tinsley are two other young guards who got paid handsomely without doing much.

You are correct that Rubio won't get $12 million a season with those stats. But he won't get that kind of money at 22 or 24. So the 2 years in Spain really don't mean much if he ends up playing shitty in the NBA.

If he stays in Spain for another season or two, he will be better equipped to play in the NBA. And, if by doing that, he ends up in a better situation when he does arrive - all the better.
How do you figure? Wouldn't he be better equipped to play in the NBA by actually playing in the NBA for a couple years?

Just an FYI, but if Rubio plays two years in Spain and comes over, he will be younger than Wade was for his first season with Miami. Rubio would do exactly what Wade did in play his first 3 seasons on the initial deal and then sign a long term extension for big money with an opt out clause after 3 years. Wade is now finishing his 6th full season and getting ready for his third contract at age 27. Rubio would be in the exact same spot if he spent two years in Spain.
That's fine, but Rubio would still be able to make more money by coming to the NBA now if he has a good career. It's not to match what Wade is making, it's to make as much as Rubio can possibly make. The more years he's in the NBA will mean the more money he will ultimately make.

The best thing for Rubio is to go to Spain for a year or two and force a trade to Mike D'Antoni's Knick team. That's a system where he would flourish and getting a little more polish in the process won't hurt. Plus, if he does anything to back the NY hype, he will get top dollar from them on his first extension. There will be more pressure on NY to justify the price/hype of Rubio than there will be on Rubio to be great. If Rubio is just average, NY will spin him as the next Nash and he will cash in.

He could be the next Nash in Minnesota and he still might not get a big extension from the Wolves. I don't see the economy getting any better up there in the next few years and they will already be looking at big money for their other young players (Love, Jefferson, Flynn and maybe even Gomes).

If he doesn't play well in Spain, his trade value drops through the floor. Spain doesn't shield him from anything. And there is no way the New York media spins him as the next Steve Nash if he's average. New York media destroys young players and gives them huge expectations off the bat. If he can handle that, then great. But I think for a teenager in the NBA, he's better off tucked away in Minnesota where no one will care if they make the playoffs.

And if Minnesota won't pay him the big bucks, he can eventually go to someone who will. That's why it's important for him to get those rookie contract years out of the way so he can enter the open market where a team like New York will give him a max contract.

[RainMaker]

And what exactly is New York going to give the T-Wolves to get Rubio? They really have nothing that they'd want. I'd be looking at other teams if I were to deal him.

[Arles]

Harris signed a 5-year, $40 million extension at age 24 and made less than $8 mil this season. That's about what Rubio can expect for a "best case" on his second deal if he comes over and plays for the Wolves this season. On the Knicks, he can make a lot more than that and they will be in a position to extend him ASAP.

[Gary Gorski]

Worst case (baring injury), he goes to Spain for two years and comes over at age 20 in 2011. He gets his 2 guaranteed, 2 option deal and then gets extended (no way they make him play for the qualifying offer) for 5 years with an opt out after 3-4 years at age 24. So, he will probably be able to opt out at age 27 or 28 and get another 5 year deal (a la Amare/Lebron).

It's not up to the T-Wolves whether he plays for that qualifying offer 5th year or not - that's up to Rubio. I'm sure the T-Wolves would prefer to offer him a long term deal, assuming he lives up to the hype, but if he doesn't want to be there that 5th year is his out. He declines the extension, declines any RFA offer sheets and takes the qualifying offer in year 5 to become an unrestricted FA and go where he wants.

If he does turn out to be a superstar Minnesota could offer him a maximum qualifying offer after that 4th season too - 6 year deal at the league max with max raises but it can't have any options.

If they give him a contract with an early termination option it has to be a 5 year deal because a contract cannot have an ETO in the first four years of it.

They could do a contract with a player option but if you had a bunch of drama getting him here in the first place how willing are you to let him have that luxury in his contract?

The problem with Rubio doing what Wade, LeBron etc did contract wise is that he would have to be in Minnesota all that time. Wade and LeBron are players that could carry the team - Rubio's not that guy. He could be a great facilitator but he's going to need talent around him to win. Also I'm assuming he wants to be part of the LeBron train in NY and play for D'Antoni - if he has to wait 7 seasons (4 rookie + 3 contract then opt out) in addition to the 2 he would spend in Spain...LeBron will be heading toward mid 30s at that point. I'm sure he'll still be a good player but not what he's going to be for the next 5-6 years.

There's lots of scenarios - it's going to be interesting to see what he does.

[RainMaker]

Harris signed a 5-year, $40 million extension at age 24 and made less than $8 mil this season. That's about what Rubio can expect for a "best case" on his second deal if he comes over and plays for the Wolves this season. On the Knicks, he can make a lot more than that and they will be in a position to extend him ASAP.

How do you figure? If he turns into an All-Star, they'll have to max him out or let him go. Harris was just a 10 and 3 guy off the bench.

[RainMaker]

Also, if it's such a good thing to be playing in Spain as a young player, why doesn't everyone do it? Why didn't Derrick Rose head over there after he was drafted for a couple years? Why didn't Brandon Jennings hang there another couple years?

I mean if Spain is the place to be to develop, it's odd that all these guys want to get to the NBA as quick as possible.

[Arles]

Because they weren't 18-years old with a massive buyout. Spain is nice when you're 15-19 years old. Once you hit 20, you're developed enough to try in the NBA.

If Rubio didn't have the buyout issue and was going to a better situation than Minnesota, it might not be a bad idea for him to come to the NBA now. I think New York or even Oklahoma City might be a nice fit for him to play next season with some success. As it sits now in Minnesota, he's going to have no shooters, multiple PGs and a team without a coach in a small market. I'd probably stay in Spain as well if faced with paying $5 million to join that situation.

[RainMaker]

Because they weren't 18-years old with a massive buyout. Spain is nice when you're 15-19 years old. Once you hit 20, you're developed enough to try in the NBA.

If Rubio didn't have the buyout issue and was going to a better situation than Minnesota, it might not be a bad idea for him to come to the NBA now. I think New York or even Oklahoma City might be a nice fit for him to play next season with some success. As it sits now in Minnesota, he's going to have no shooters, multiple PGs and a team without a coach in a small market. I'd probably stay in Spain as well if faced with paying $5 million to join that situation.

The buyout issue is so overblown. Just about everyone is reporting that it will be reduced a lot so that both sides are happy (the team is losing a ton of money and can use the cash). Not to mention that his shoe deal alone in the U.S. will more than cover that buyout. That doesn't include all the other endorsement deals he has on the table in the U.S. Rubio is the most marketable guy who was drafted.

[Gary Gorski]

And what exactly is New York going to give the T-Wolves to get Rubio? They really have nothing that they'd want. I'd be looking at other teams if I were to deal him.

Wilson Chandler would be a start - not enough obviously but Chandler can play and the Wolves could use a good wingman. Other than that though - got me. David Lee is not going to be worth the contract his stats might get him. He would make an excellent 6th man though if you could sign him to a reasonable contract.

I don't really know where a decent trade would even lie. Golden State for Curry + Biedrins + Wright? Nellie loves Curry though.

Rubio's been a pain the entire draft process but Minnesota screwed this up too. They should have just taken Rubio and Curry and been done with it. Curry's got a much better chance of being useful in the league than Flynn or anyone else drafted behind him. In fact I would say Curry's the 3rd best prospect in the draft (which isn't saying much for the draft). Golden State probably takes Hill and makes the deal for Amar'e and NY takes Flynn. Then if Rubio pitches a fit you trade him for Flynn + Chandler - that way you still got your guy in Flynn plus a free Wilson Chandler.

If I were Kahn and I really did want Rubio (don't know why he wouldn't) I would go to him and ask him if I trade Flynn will you shut up and play. If he says yes I trade Flynn to one of a couple teams in need of a PG and then he doesn't have another rookie PG on the roster with him. If he doesn't agree to play then I leave him in Spain until someone is willing to overpay for him. If he's going to trade him then he needs to stop this nonsense about him and Flynn playing together and that he will wait forever for Rubio...nobody believes it anyway.

[RainMaker]

Lee doesn't have much value for Minnesota since they already have Love and Jefferson. I would have offered up Rubio for the 8th pick and Chandler. Then taken Terrence Williams with the pick. Would have been a nice young lineup of Flynn, Williams, Chandler, Jefferson, and Love.

[Gary Gorski]

Because they weren't 18-years old with a massive buyout. Spain is nice when you're 15-19 years old. Once you hit 20, you're developed enough to try in the NBA.

If Rubio didn't have the buyout issue and was going to a better situation than Minnesota, it might not be a bad idea for him to come to the NBA now. I think New York or even Oklahoma City might be a nice fit for him to play next season with some success. As it sits now in Minnesota, he's going to have no shooters, multiple PGs and a team without a coach in a small market. I'd probably stay in Spain as well if faced with paying $5 million to join that situation.

Rubio's been playing pro ball since he was 14 - he's played against some of the best NBA players already in the Olympics. If he's not ready to try the NBA by now what more is two more years of pro ball in Spain going to do that the last 5 haven't already?

OKC would have been an issue because of Westbrook - he's apparently as fragile as Rubio when it comes to having another young point on the roster. NY won't be any better this year than last - they're not going to want to spend money to improve and so far the biggest addition is Darko. NY and Minnesota are equally bad - the only difference is his stats would be much better playing D'Antoni-ball. If Duhon could average 8 assists a game Rubio may have led the league in assists there. NY's the ideal situation for next season though assuming LeBron shows up and the much, much larger market - can't imagine why he wants to force his way there :)

[Gary Gorski]

Lee doesn't have much value for Minnesota since they already have Love and Jefferson. I would have offered up Rubio for the 8th pick and Chandler. Then taken Terrence Williams with the pick. Would have been a nice young lineup of Flynn, Williams, Chandler, Jefferson, and Love.

They kind of have a Terrence Williams in Corey Brewer already and 8 would have been way too high for him.

Lee would have tremendous value with the right contract - he's a high energy workhorse. Perfect 6th man that would give them a nice 3 man frontcourt rotation. Of course Lee is going to want $10M + which should make him far less attractive in a deal.

[stevew]

The buyout issue is so overblown. Just about everyone is reporting that it will be reduced a lot so that both sides are happy (the team is losing a ton of money and can use the cash). Not to mention that his shoe deal alone in the U.S. will more than cover that buyout. That doesn't include all the other endorsement deals he has on the table in the U.S. Rubio is the most marketable guy who was drafted.

I would have to think that if he was Juan Rubio, he wouldn't be nearly as marketable. For some reason, the first name really works....he sounds like a superhero.

[Icy]

Btw, really curious thing.

3 players have been drafted from the same Spanish team, DKV Joventut, that is of course a record as i even doubt that two players from the same European team have been ever drafted in the same year.

1.5 Ricky Rubio (DKV Joventut)
1.30 Christian Eyenga (DKV Joventut B team)
2.17 Henk Norel (DKV Joventut)

The most surprising one is Eyenga, that plays in the DKV B team, that plays in the Spanish 3rd division league.

[MikeVic]

Btw, really curious thing.

3 players have been drafted from the same Spanish team, DKV Joventut, that is of course a record as i even doubt that two players from the same European team have been ever drafted in the same year.

1.5 Ricky Rubio (DKV Joventut)
1.30 Christian Eyenga (DKV Joventut B team)
2.17 Henk Norel (DKV Joventut)

The most surprising one is Eyenga, that plays in the DKV B team, that plays in the Spanish 3rd division league.

Yeah Eyenga is the questionable pick by the Cavs I believe. He has athleticism, but that's about it is from I've read.

[miami_fan]

That pick is reminiscent of the first round picks of the Spurs. Pick a young guy in Europe. Let him stay there and learn the game more and get more experience. Then bring him over when you actually have a hole to fill.

[RainMaker]

The pick is dumber when you consider the Cavs are trying to win now and don't know if they'll have Lebron next year. With Young and Blair on the board still, seems silly not to throw a flier at one of them.

[jbergey22]

Rubio's been a pain the entire draft process but Minnesota screwed this up too. They should have just taken Rubio and Curry and been done with it. Curry's got a much better chance of being useful in the league than Flynn or anyone else drafted behind him. In fact I would say Curry's the 3rd best prospect in the draft (which isn't saying much for the draft). Golden State probably takes Hill and makes the deal for Amar'e and NY takes Flynn. Then if Rubio pitches a fit you trade him for Flynn + Chandler - that way you still got your guy in Flynn plus a free Wilson Chandler.



What do you find so different between JJ Reddick and Curry? Reddick is a better pure shooter than Curry and runs off picks better and he isnt anything but rotation player. I cant see how you can say Curry is the 3rd best prospect in the draft. He is so overhyped because of his tourny performance two years ago its not even funny. Flynn is just a flat out player he carried cuse on his back so many times this year when everyone else on that team had no clue how to win. I felt bad for him so many times this past year. He will be better than Curry or Rubio.

[RainMaker]

What do you find so different between JJ Reddick and Curry? Reddick is a better pure shooter than Curry and runs off picks better and he isnt anything but rotation player. I cant see how you can say Curry is the 3rd best prospect in the draft. He is so overhyped because of his tourny performance two years ago its not even funny. Flynn is just a flat out player he carried cuse on his back so many times this year when everyone else on that team had no clue how to win. I felt bad for him so many times this past year. He will be better than Curry or Rubio.
I think Curry is overated and would have been mid-first round in a better draft. But he's much different than Reddick. He's quicker and a better passer. Plus he can create his own shot unlike Reddick. I'd also say Curry has a better basketball IQ.

I don't think Curry is a starter in the NBA (could be a great 6th man), but he's a much better prospect than Reddick.

[Eaglesfan27]

What do you find so different between JJ Reddick and Curry? Reddick is a better pure shooter than Curry and runs off picks better and he isnt anything but rotation player. I cant see how you can say Curry is the 3rd best prospect in the draft. He is so overhyped because of his tourny performance two years ago its not even funny. Flynn is just a flat out player he carried cuse on his back so many times this year when everyone else on that team had no clue how to win. I felt bad for him so many times this past year. He will be better than Curry or Rubio.

I haven't seen anything to make me think Reddick is a better shooter and he definitely can't create his own shot or pass as well as Curry. That being said, I do agree that he was overhyped based off that tourney performance as well as his dad's legacy.

[BishopMVP]

Btw, really curious thing.

3 players have been drafted from the same Spanish team, DKV Joventut, that is of course a record as i even doubt that two players from the same European team have been ever drafted in the same year.Portland drafted 2 backup CSKA Moscow swingmen back to back in 2004 - Viktor Khrypa and Sergei Monia at 22/23.

[stevew]

The pick is dumber when you consider the Cavs are trying to win now and don't know if they'll have Lebron next year. With Young and Blair on the board still, seems silly not to throw a flier at one of them.


Agreed for the most part. I do see think that they may have wanted to reduce luxury tax where they could. Paying a rookie scale salary wastes about a half million bucks vs just paying a min wage scrub.

Ferry's drafting and FA acquisitions have been pretty poor, he managed to do a solid job in trades. Although they were just mitigating damages that he'd previously created. It goes back to blowing a pick on Luke Jackson, and then botching Boozer. Those were substantial nails in the Bron window, and probably will end up assuring that there will be no title in the near future.

[RainMaker]

I think the Cavs have been one of the worst run organizations since Lebron got there. They haven't been able to bring in any talent to surround him with despite having some money to throw around.

[stevew]

we've both seen the damage a Paxson can do to a franchise first hand.

[RainMaker]

My brother and I were joking the other day about former Bulls guards being shitty in management roles. We've got Paxson, Kerr, and Jordan. BJ Armstrong is a GM in training. God have mercy on whatever team he ends up with.

[Chief Rum]

I think the Cavs have been one of the worst run organizations since Lebron got there. They haven't been able to bring in any talent to surround him with despite having some money to throw around.

Considering they put themselves in position to draft LeBron, I would say they have been one of the worst run organizations since before LeBron got there as well.

[Gary Gorski]

What do you find so different between JJ Reddick and Curry? Reddick is a better pure shooter than Curry and runs off picks better and he isnt anything but rotation player. I cant see how you can say Curry is the 3rd best prospect in the draft. He is so overhyped because of his tourny performance two years ago its not even funny. Flynn is just a flat out player he carried cuse on his back so many times this year when everyone else on that team had no clue how to win. I felt bad for him so many times this past year. He will be better than Curry or Rubio.

Like I said, I feel Curry is the 3rd best prospect in the draft - on the whole I think this draft blows and is the weakest one in a long time so being 3rd best of a bad draft isn't much.

I think there are fairly significant differences between Curry and Reddick. I think Curry is more athletic, a better ball handler and better shooter within the flow of a game. Reddick had help in college - Duke usually has some decent players. Curry was the team so the numbers he put up this season were with defenses throwing everything they had at him. I think Curry understands the game better and some of the poor shots or poor decisions he made this season were simply because he had to do something with the ball. On his team even a terrible shot by him was probably still better than a good look for someone else.

I don't think Curry will ever be an all-star or anything like that. I think he could be a starter long term though - a guy who averages 12-15 a night as a 3rd/4th option on the team. There is always room for a player in the league who can score and doesn't have to rely on others to do so. That's the issue with Reddick - I'm sure he's deadly in a game of HORSE but really the only thing he's capable of bringing to the table right now is hitting wide open threes.

[Samdari]

If Rubio can average 17 points and 9 assists at the age of 22, he will get big money. I just don't see him doing that. I could, however, see him doing that at 24. That's why it's no big deal to stay in Spain another year or two.

Rubio averaged like 3.4 points per game in a minor league in Spain. He will never average 17 points in any league.

[JeeberD]

He's still a teenager, Sam. Tim Hardaway averaged 4.1ppg his freshman year at UTEP, yet somehow he managed to have a very nice NBA career. And I'm sure there are many, many other NBA players who put up similar numbers their first year in college...

[Samdari]

He's still a teenager, Sam. Tim Hardaway averaged 4.1ppg his freshman year at UTEP, yet somehow he managed to have a very nice NBA career. And I'm sure there are many, many other NBA players who put up similar numbers their first year in college...

What did he score the year before he came to the NBA?

Did he ever shoot 30% from the floor, 20% from jump shots?

Dude has all the makings of a bust. He'll be the bust of this draft.

[albionmoonlight]

Reddick had help in college - Duke usually has some decent players.

As a UNC fan, it pains me to say it, but Reddick also had the advantage of a great coach in College. Coach K is really good at getting his team's offense to run through his best players.

[albionmoonlight]

dola: I've wondered sometimes what would have happened had Kobe gone to Duke for a couple of years and bought into the system there. I think that Coach K could have had him scoring 35 a game.

[JeeberD]

What did he score the year before he came to the NBA?

What does that have to do with anything? You're quoting numbers from when he was 18...players develop and get better with age.

Did he ever shoot 30% from the floor, 20% from jump shots?

No, he didn't, but Timmy didn't develop a jumper until his senior year at UTEP, and it wasn't a particularly great one at that. Rubio still has a few years to work on his shot as well...

Dude has all the makings of a bust. He'll be the bust of this draft.

All I know is that Rockets GM Daryl Morey is enamored with Rubio, and Morey hasn't done anything yet to make me not trust his judgment.

[jbergey22]

As a UNC fan, it pains me to say it, but Reddick also had the advantage of a great coach in College. Coach K is really good at getting his team's offense to run through his best players.

Well putting it this way. Reddick also played against top notch players and many more high pressure situations than Curry. Im not sure that you can say Reddick played with better players without taking into consideration the joke of the conference Curry played in.

Their college vitals look very similiar to me. Curry did get a lot more steals and assists than Reddick, he also turned the ball over much more.

2009 scouting report for Davidson (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Davidson)


2006 scouting report for Duke (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke&y=2006)

I will agree that from looking at this Curry does have a bit more potential than Reddick because he can atleast get steals and create his own shot however I would say the difference is very marginal. I had previously thought Reddick shot around 48% from 3 pointers when over their college careers it was pretty much even.

[jbergey22]

dola: I've wondered sometimes what would have happened had Kobe gone to Duke for a couple of years and bought into the system there. I think that Coach K could have had him scoring 35 a game.

No chance! Duke has had some wonderful players (Grant Hill, Jayson Williams, Elton Brand, Christian Laetner, etc.) and none of them have come close to averaging that. They have too many other options.

Coach K is good at putting his players in situations to be effective IM really not sure where this "getting his offense to run through his best players" comes from. Other than Reddick scoring much more than any one of his teammates Duke is one of the most balanced scoring teams year in and year out because they are loaded.

[whomario]

Rubio averaged like 3.4 points per game in a minor league in Spain. He will never average 17 points in any league.

What did he score the year before he came to the NBA?

Did he ever shoot 30% from the floor, 20% from jump shots?

Dude has all the makings of a bust. He'll be the bust of this draft.


I dunno where you have that numbers from but they are false :

ACB (http://www.acb.com/stsacumjug.php?cod_jugador=BA5)

Rubio averaged 10 Points a game shooting 40%, which obviously isn´t great but considering he sat out the first couple weeks with a wrist injury and played a couple of weeks with a protection on his shooting hand. He averaged about 13 a game his last 15 games withot the brace and shot a respectable 24/54 from 3 in that span.
He shot 81 % from the line, so that´s a promising sign unlike like for, say, Rajon Rondo.

He also ranked 14th in efficiency rating in about 23 minutes a game (no one on his team played more than 25, shorter games and a deep rotation)

He did average very few points in this years Euroleague. But he only played 5 games, all still with the protection on his hand and playing 2, 7 and 10 minutes his first 3 games.

@ jbergey : Stats are all fine and nice, but seeing Curry and Redick play there´s a noticeable difference. Not nesceserily in quality (as Redick was an amazing College player) but in style of play and ability to play on the ball and thus making a transition. Curry is lightyears ahead in terms of Passing ability, is a much more fluid athlete (kind of like Steve Nash in that aspect while Redick is more like Steve Kerr) and is much better at creating his own shot and simply has an in-between game that Redick didn´t have that clearly.
And his Turnovers ? Did you see a Davidson game this year ? It was like Wade having to play1-5 last year only even more drastic. He had a usage rate that was just unbelievable and that was with a coach (McKillop is good btw) that tried everything to take off the pressure off of him, playing a 2nd small guard and designing a ton of plays until they needed him to score desperately.
I mean, he had a game where the other teams Coach (Loyola Maryland, wasn´t it ?) double teamed him off the ball with the others playing 3 on 4 in a zone defense ...
That being said i´m still convinced Redick will eventually be a 6th or 7th man on a good team with like 12-14 points a game.

[JeeberD]

Well fuck, looks like Yao may be done...

Rockets could lose Yao for season, if not longer - NBA - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AtUi2em6dCZKJjpKmPpGDLK8vLYF?slug=aw-yaorockets062909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[whomario]

Well fuck, looks like Yao may be done...

Rockets could lose Yao for season, if not longer - NBA - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AtUi2em6dCZKJjpKmPpGDLK8vLYF?slug=aw-yaorockets062909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

that sucks ... He doesn´t deserve that ... :(

[DaddyTorgo]

that does suck. gotta say i agree with this point though:

The Rockets should do themselves a favor and just start over. That isn’t easy in a sophisticated and rabid NBA market like Houston, but what everyone long suspected has reached fruition: Yao and McGrady are no longer a faulty foundation, but a collapsed one. Houston needs to proceed with an understanding that they’re no longer chasing the Lakers, but beginning again.

[DaddyTorgo]

they need to clear cap space (McGrady and Artest) and start over. If they get Yao back that's great and he can contribute. If not he retires and they get that cap space.

[Gary Gorski]

that does suck. gotta say i agree with this point though:

The Rockets should do themselves a favor and just start over. That isn’t easy in a sophisticated and rabid NBA market like Houston, but what everyone long suspected has reached fruition: Yao and McGrady are no longer a faulty foundation, but a collapsed one. Houston needs to proceed with an understanding that they’re no longer chasing the Lakers, but beginning again.

That really sucks - he seems like a good guy and certainly very skilled. Houston had to think this would happen at some point though I'm sure they figured it would be a few more seasons at least. I hope that he can be back a season from now. In the meantime Houston needs to just blow it up - give T-Mac away and let Artest go and just start all over. That way if Yao comes back its a bonus but otherwise you're moving forward.

[DaddyTorgo]

That really sucks - he seems like a good guy and certainly very skilled. Houston had to think this would happen at some point though I'm sure they figured it would be a few more seasons at least. I hope that he can be back a season from now. In the meantime Houston needs to just blow it up - give T-Mac away and let Artest go and just start all over. That way if Yao comes back its a bonus but otherwise you're moving forward.

Exactly my thinking.

[jbergey22]

And his Turnovers ? Did you see a Davidson game this year ?

Yes I seen numerous Davidson games over the past 2 years. This is exactly why I am not as impressed by his game as some of you seem to be. It reminded of a junior high basketball game where the best scorer just takes the ball and dribbles around til he can create enough opening to throw up a shot.

Reddick on the other hand was like Reggie Miller coming off picks. He was able to use his teammates to set up his open looks. I really dont see a way Currys style as it is will be effective in the NBA. He was a streak shooter that sometimes needed to miss 10 in a row to get going. Is he going to get enough shots to be able to shoot himself out of slumps in the NBA?

Reddick did well within a team framework while Curry did well in an offense designed to allow him the opportunity to do as he pleased. Probably similiar in that of college to a QB in the Ohio St offense or a QB in the Hawaii offense.

[albionmoonlight]

No chance! Duke has had some wonderful players (Grant Hill, Jayson Williams, Elton Brand, Christian Laetner, etc.) and none of them have come close to averaging that. They have too many other options.

Coach K is good at putting his players in situations to be effective IM really not sure where this "getting his offense to run through his best players" comes from. Other than Reddick scoring much more than any one of his teammates Duke is one of the most balanced scoring teams year in and year out because they are loaded.

I didn't mean that he picked one guy and ran the offense through him--but that he manages to tweak his offense to get the most out of the talent that he has.

Duke is, of course, loaded. But all of the top ten teams are. The difference is that guys like Mike Dunleavy Jr. look like stars under him because he can get the most out of them.

Reddick, IMHO, would have been seen as a good shooter had he played for another team. Because he played for Duke, he was seen as a co-National Player of the Year.

[jbergey22]

I didn't mean that he picked one guy and ran the offense through him--but that he manages to tweak his offense to get the most out of the talent that he has.

Duke is, of course, loaded. But all of the top ten teams are. The difference is that guys like Mike Dunleavy Jr. look like stars under him because he can get the most out of them.

Reddick, IMHO, would have been seen as a good shooter had he played for another team. Because he played for Duke, he was seen as a co-National Player of the Year.

I agree with all of this! I dont agree with Dukes stupid defense however. Pressure the ball out to half court, good pg dribbles past the 1st defender and creates so many easy opportunities for the other players when their guy has to come help out but thats a completely different topic:).

[Samdari]

I dunno where you have that numbers from but they are false :

Aye, they are a projection based on how Euroleague numbers translate to the NBA (from John Hollinger):

Scoring rate decreases 25 percent
Rebound rate increases by 18 percent
Assist rate increases by 31 percent
Shooting percentage drops by 12 percent
Overall, player efficiency rating drops by 30 percent

Basically, the Euroleague numbers indicate how one fares against no defense. In the NBA, he will be defended - and probably shoot around 30%.

And Hollinger's analysis:
"OK, it's time to shine a harsher light here. There's one thing working hugely against Rubio's status as an A-list prospect that nobody seems to want to mention, so let me put it out there: There's very little evidence he can score at anything approaching an acceptable rate for an NBA point guard.

We have very little recent Euroleague data to work with from Rubio -- just a 66-minute sample from this year and a larger sample from two years earlier -- but both sets translate to scoring about five points per 40 minutes and shooting in the low 30s. Ugh. Rubio shot better in the Spanish ACB league this season, including 25-of-62 on 3-pointers, but he also shot only 39 percent on 2s against a lower level of competition.

Same goes for his alleged breakout in the Olympics -- as heralded as he was for his play, he made nine baskets in eight games and shot 28.1 percent for the tournament. And while one of those games was against a team full of U.S. All-Stars, he wasn't bedazzling the Germans or Angolans either. Obviously he's a Jason Kidd-like rarity in that he can have a heavy impact on the game without scoring, but if his shooting numbers don't improve, he'll make Kidd look like Rick Barry."

I just think that projecting him as a future NBA star is crazy based on where he has played. Euroleague is the same caliber of competition as high-major college ball, the league Rubio played in is roughly equivalent to big city high school basketball.

He may end up being great, but there are literally hundreds of Americans in every draft who would look as good as Rubio did against the level of competition he was playing against. His lack of shooting ability would keep him from doing what he reportedly does best - driving and dishing. The league trash heap is littered with guys who were drafted young and carried the "but he can develop a jump shot" tag.

[stevew]

I'd think he'll have a career path similar to Bassy Telfair. No jumper, eventually no rotation.

Unless he can overcome it, which I suppose is possible.

[Lathum]

Sportscenter reporting Yao may be done for career and at best will likely miss all of next season.

[whomario]

I just think that projecting him as a future NBA star is crazy based on where he has played. Euroleague is the same caliber of competition as high-major college ball, the league Rubio played in is roughly equivalent to big city high school basketball.



this is just wrong. I am sorry, but your knowledge on european basketball is just highly underdeveloped. I don´t mean to offend you here, but that is just a terribly wrong statement.

First : is a good Euroleague Team a lot better than the best College Teams. Yes, a lot of College players go to Europe and do good there, but on any given College team there´s a couple rotation players and even starters that would not get a single minute on any decent Euroleague Team (there´s a couple teams that aren´t as good. It is NOT the best 32 teams of europe as no country gets more than 5 spots and some others get more than they deserve)
I mean, Jennings propably would have played 30 minutes averaging 15-18 points and 5-7 Assists in College. Did you see his numbers in Europe ? And he played on a good team, not a very good one. In a decent-good league, not a very good one.
Seriously, any younth/development team (which college teams are), no matter how talented, will loose to any even slightly comparably talented professional team 9 out of 10 times.
As an example from another sport : The best youth teams in Germany (Under 19 teams) regularly play friendlies against teams from the 4th league and below (so basically 70th best team and below) and regularly loose because what the veteran team lacks in talent they make up by experience.

Second : Spain has the strongest Domestic League, propably 10 teams every year could play competitively in the Euroleague, but not that many are allowed to participate. (just like in the World Cup propably 7 or 8 more european national teams could beat most that come from Asia or other obscure teams) .
Most years all spanish teams (5 currently) reach the 2nd stage of 16 after a 10 game round-robin schedule in 4 groups of 8 (32 teams).
This year the 5 spanish teams had a combined record of 35-15 in the first round and that´s with Joventud (Rubios team) included who struggled to 4-6 due to that Rubio injury and other problems. So the other 4 teams were 31-9. And the next best 5 teams would have propably had 3 qualified in their space.
Case in point, in the 2nd best continental Competition (Eurocup, formerly Uleb Cup) the 2 spanish team went 12-0 in the first round and 20-4 in the 2 group stages combined.


thirdly : Rubio barely played in the Euroleague this year. If he seriously took his numbers from this year where he basically only had 2 real games (and even those with a cast on) and made a projection off of that, than i suppose that´s fool proof, eh ?

Hollinger also projected Batum to never be anything who is on his way to become a quality starter, he also projected Diaw to suck and so on and so forth.

[Atocep]

Hollinger also projected Batum to never be anything who is on his way to become a quality starter, he also projected Diaw to suck and so on and so forth.

Hollinger bases his projections off of other players have come over so he's going miss sometimes. Just like any other person who projects what a player will be. With that said, Batum is far from a lock to become a quality starter and Diaw a below average NBA player.

Rubio can't shoot, can't defend, and isn't built like Jason Kidd so until he puts on weight he won't be rebounding. The comparisons to Kidd are way off base because has consistently been one of the top rebounding guards in the league and throughout most of his career has been one of the top defenders at his position.

Point guards that can't shoot and can't defend are destined for a life on the bench in the NBA. There's zero chance his playmaking ability can make up for those 2 areas so he has to get better at or the other, if not both.

[JeeberD]

That really sucks - he seems like a good guy and certainly very skilled. Houston had to think this would happen at some point though I'm sure they figured it would be a few more seasons at least. I hope that he can be back a season from now. In the meantime Houston needs to just blow it up - give T-Mac away and let Artest go and just start all over. That way if Yao comes back its a bonus but otherwise you're moving forward.

Of course, the Rockets went 2-2 in the playoffs against the Lakers without Yao and TMac, which is as many wins as any other team managed against them. I don't think there's a need to completely blow the team up, but if Yao is indeed done they need to find a way to bring in another star to lead the team...

[Sublime 2]

Rasheed is being linked to the Celtics already by some Boston outlets. There is suppose to be some more information tonight on Comcast Sports Net. If this becomes true, it's a huge help to Boston. From what I've seen, Rasheed does a pretty good job of guarding Howard. I'm not a huge fan of shot selection, but that is something I could certainly live with.

[DaddyTorgo]

is Sheed a FA, or what would the C's be giving up for him?

[miami_fan]

is Sheed a FA, or what would the C's be giving up for him?

Free Agent

[Gary Gorski]

Of course, the Rockets went 2-2 in the playoffs against the Lakers without Yao and TMac, which is as many wins as any other team managed against them. I don't think there's a need to completely blow the team up, but if Yao is indeed done they need to find a way to bring in another star to lead the team...

Yao's done for the year at least, McGrady isn't going to be ready for the start - do you really want to take Artest on in a long term deal when he's "the guy"? I think there's a high probability Artest gets bored/tired/goes loopy and then you're on the hook for years with that guy.

You take all three out of the equation and you've got what? Brooks is going to carry the team? Brooks, Scola, Battier...nice pieces to have around some stars but they're not even a playoff team without a full season from Yao and McGrady.

[DaddyTorgo]

Free Agent

aaah. i don't love his shot selection all the time, but he's a nice complimentary piece that's for sure

[Gary Gorski]

Rasheed is being linked to the Celtics already by some Boston outlets. There is suppose to be some more information tonight on Comcast Sports Net. If this becomes true, it's a huge help to Boston. From what I've seen, Rasheed does a pretty good job of guarding Howard. I'm not a huge fan of shot selection, but that is something I could certainly live with.

Take him - please. You might get one year out of him where he'll play hard and help you win. Then you'll be stuck for however many years left with a guy who will camp out on the perimeter, rack up T after T and probably ruin the attitudes of your young players.

If Doc thinks he has his hands full with Rondo just wait til you add Sheed to that mix. Don't get me wrong - Rasheed Wallace is a very gifted player - but all the rest of the baggage comes along and even if it looks like it didn't at first don't worry - it's only temporarily lost and will find its way there.

[JPhillips]

Would Sheed be happy as a sixth man? I don't follow the NBA closely enough to know.

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - that's true. it'd hafta be a one or two year deal

[Swaggs]

I'm not a fan, but it makes a lot of sense for Wallace to land in Cleveland.

[RainMaker]

With how much the Celtics are pursuing a big man, it makes me wonder if the KG injury is much worse than they have led on.

[DaddyTorgo]

With how much the Celtics are pursuing a big man, it makes me wonder if the KG injury is much worse than they have led on.

could be...could be

[RainMaker]

If KG is healthy for next season, I'd just try and re-sign Davis. A guy who knows the system, plays defense, and has developed into a nice player. I can't imagine he'd cost much more than Rasheed.

[stevew]

I'm not a fan, but it makes a lot of sense for Wallace to land in Cleveland.
Yeah. He would fit in. But he did say some bad things about the city and fans. If take him at the starting 4 for a year though

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah. He would fit in. But he did say some bad things about the city and fans. If take him at the starting 4 for a year though

With Shaq and LeBron that's alot of ego already in Cleveland. I don't know if Sheed could fit and I doubt he would be willing to sign a one year deal. He's probably looking for one last decent contract now.

The thing about Rasheed is that if he doesn't come to Detroit we probably don't win that championship. We collectively disliked the guy for his antics elsewhere in the league but he came in, played hard, kept his mouth shut (mostly) and made us better and everyone loved him. Then all the new wore off and he not only went back to his old tricks but he ended up taking the rest of the team down that path into a bunch of whiners and complainers (yeah I'm talking to you Rip and Tayshaun). He gets coaches fired (although that would be an excellent reason for Cleveland to sign him) and will become a distraction at some point.

[stevew]

Some talk of Ron Artest to the cavs. I don't think he will turn down more money to sign in Cleveland. But if the MLE is all he can get. Mike Brown knows him first hand. So if he likes the move I can live with it. Even though I've come to terms that Brown wil be around for several more years. GRR.

[MikeVic]

I think the Cavs do jack shit in the offseason, or add someone that doesn't make sense. I'm just getting he vibe that I won't like the upcoming NBA season. Raps will suck, Orlando is ruined with crybaby Vince, and the Lakers will be in the Finals again with no real competition in the West.

[Big Fo]

The recent Yao news sucks as a neutral, one of the few good centers in the league gone for the year or longer. Plus the Lakers need all the challenge they can get out West as MikeVic just said.

[JeeberD]

Yao update: Same situation as March '08. Returned for Olympics and best season. Likeliest scenario - surgery, misses part of next season.

Hopefully Ric has solid info on the situation...

[whomario]

Hopefully Ric has solid info on the situation...


more often than not he has, he´s pretty close to Yao from what i know, having co-written his autobiography with him as well.

[Samdari]

this is just wrong. I am sorry, but your knowledge on european basketball is just highly underdeveloped. I don´t mean to offend you here, but that is just a terribly wrong statement.

First : is a good Euroleague Team a lot better than the best College Teams. Yes, a lot of College players go to Europe and do good there, but on any given College team there´s a couple rotation players and even starters that would not get a single minute on any decent Euroleague Team

You've got this 100% backwards.

The best Euroleague teams have at most one or two NBA players. All of this year's final four teams will have at least 4 - UNC and Kansas on the order of 8 or 9. In any given draft, 1 or 2 Euroleague players end up NBA caliber, 30-40 college players do. But you're right, the talent level is higher in Euroleague.

I will agree that the Euroleague guys are more developed than college guys, because the best college guys are generally under 20. But talentwise, major college is eons ahead of Euroleague.

[whomario]

What relevance has talent in that discussion ? I spend like 20 minutes to explain it and you still come back to it ...
Basketball is a 12 (or 10 or 8, whatever your rotation) man sport and 1-12 every good Euroleague team blows every college team out of the water, thus it is much harder for a young player to produce in Europe rather than in College. Which was my point.
There´s a lot of European players that could have been NBA players but didn´t pursue it, there´s a ton of players that could right now play in the NBA. Not in the same role as in Europe but a lesser one, but they could play. But why play less minutes for less money further away from family and friends ?

And it is the 2nd tier in terms of talent (fair enough), but it´s the 2nd tier from age 18-35, not just 18-22. Thus it is also much tougher for a young player to develop fast enough to make it in the NBA at age 19-22, they don´t get handed Playing Time but have to earn it against veterans. Ask Jennings how it is and he had the advantage of being paid a ton of money, thus the Coach had to play him some at least as not to offend the management.
Virtually 80%+ of all drafted players from Europe were and are fringe players here getting very little playing time, here Rubio is an exception to the rule playing a consistent 25 minutes for the last couple years.
.
Of course more College player turn out to be good NBA players, but that doesn´t change that the average Eurleague Team is clearly better than the average Major College Team (Big East, ACC etc).
And i hope that Jennings has a good season and career, that would underline this pretty good.

And 4 to 9 NBA players ? I mean, if you speak about a couple years with 10 MPG. How about taking a look after a couple of years. Show me one roster featuring at any time 9 players that went on to play in the NBA... And if those 25-30 year old Euros would consider playing in a supporting role with less money there would be even less.

I mean, is Suton now an NBA player because he got drafted ? There´s propably 10-15 PFs of his style of play better than him on last league´s Euroleague Rosters. And he was Michigan´s 2nd best player in the torunament. Kailin Lucas won´t be more than a sparkplug in the NBA, either.
The same for guys like Dee Brown, Luther Head or James Augustine (3 of 4 NBA players from 2005 Illinois) , the same for guys like Jawad Williams, Sean May, Terry (5 PPG and 15 MPG in Italy btw) and Noel from 2005 North Carolina.

[Samdari]

here Rubio is an exception to the rule playing a consistent 25 minutes for the last couple years.

We're going have to agree to disagree on the level of competition in Euroleague vs college. Spending more time typing it does not make your explanation correct.

Rubio played 64 minutes TOTAL in Euroleague this year.

But you cannot possibly think a European minor league, where Rubio has spend most of the last year, is superior to elite US college ball, can you?

My whole point is that Rubio has not proven he can score at anywhere near a rate needed to be successful in the NBA when he has faced decent competition. The comparison made most often for Rubio is Jason Kidd - but he has always been a threat to score in order to set up his passing. Rubio has shown nothing to indicate he can do so, and its something you HAVE to be able to do to be a successful NBA point guard.

[Sublime 2]

If KG is healthy for next season, I'd just try and re-sign Davis. A guy who knows the system, plays defense, and has developed into a nice player. I can't imagine he'd cost much more than Rasheed.

See I completely disagree with this. I like Baby, but I really don't want to see him in a C's uniform for the next 5 years. He made the most of the KG injury, good for him, but please don't re-sign him. I may be in the minority on this one, but I'd rather stick it out with only one undersized PF in Powe (knee injury and all).

[larrymcg421]

I agree. I think Baby's price is much higher than his worth right now, whereas Powe is the exact opposite.

[albionmoonlight]

Y'all need to have some kind of bet or something.

Over/under on all-star games by Ricky Rubio by 2015 or something like that.

[MikeVic]

I set the line at 2.5.

[DaddyTorgo]

by 2015?

I'll say "Under"

[Coffee Warlord]

Under.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

That's a pretty high line, there. Aren't you saying will he or won't he make 3 All-Star games his first 5 years? That's pretty difficult. Chris Paul, if he's an All-Star next year, makes it.

[larrymcg421]

Really. Even those who think he could be very good aren't going to take the over there.

The line should be 0.5

Does he make one or not?

[DaddyTorgo]

by 2015 yes he makes one

make the line 1.5 and it'd be a tougher call

[MikeVic]

Ok, the comparisons of Rubio made me believe he's supposed to be some sort of superstar. If he makes one All-Star game by 2015 he's a bust relative to the comparisons he gets.

[Samdari]

Really. Even those who think he could be very good aren't going to take the over there.

The line should be 0.5

Does he make one or not?

I'd say its gotta be 1.5.

Mo Williams has made one all star team, and he's a journeyman. I'd say that if Rubio turns out as good a Mo Williams, whoever overpays the Wolves for him will be very disappointed.

All star games is not a great measure. Carmelo Anthony has been one of the best 24 players in the league in each of the last 5 seasons. He's made two all star games.

[Gary Gorski]

How does he possibly make an all-star game with Chris Paul and Deron Williams (and even Tony Parker) in the West?

[MikeVic]

How does he possibly make an all-star game with Chris Paul and Deron Williams (and even Tony Parker) in the West?

Yeah you're right about that...

I'd say that if Rubio isn't starting and averaging something like 8ppg, double-figures in assists, and shooting 40-FG, 80-FT, 30-3FG by 2015 then he hasnt lived up to what he should be. Is that fair?

[TroyF]

Just to throw some things in here, I 100% agree with Samdari. I love the way Rubio passes the ball. But he can't score. He has never done it in Spain, he didn't do it in the Olympics. He simply doesn't score.

I'm not going to say Rubio WILL fail, because he could always add a jump shot, get his points per game to the 15 level and become a stud. He's still young. That said, I haven't seen any indication he can do it yet. If he doesn't VASTLY improve his scoring, he has zero chance of being a star in this league.

I think the Nuggets got the best PG in this draft. We'll see how that shows up over time.

I think any contending team will do well to stay the hell away from Rasheed Wallace.

Lastly, I think whomario is vasly overrating the euro leagues. There may be 14 or 15 better players than Suton out there, but they weren't draft eligible. (or they'd have been taken) There were 14 total Euros taken in the NBA draft. NBA teams know where to go to find the best talent. Sometimes they do this to too high of a degree. (which is why we see so many Euro busts taken in the top 5)

[MikeVic]

You know how was a good Euro, Toni Kukoc.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

double-figures in assists

2009: 2 (Paul, Williams)
2008: 4 (Paul, Nash, Williams, Kidd)
2007: 1 (Nash)
2006: 1 (Nash)
2005: 1 (Nash)
2004: 0

I still think you're setting the bar way too high.

[TroyF]

How does he possibly make an all-star game with Chris Paul and Deron Williams (and even Tony Parker) in the West?

This. You've got Paul, Williams and Parker as autos if they stay healthy. You still have the old guard of Nash and Billups playing at a good level. Then you have a guy like Westbrook moving up.

Of course, he may be in the East by the time the season starts. All he'll have to deal with there is Rondo, Jameer, Rose, and Harris.

And I didn't even mention guys like Baron Davis, Calderon, Sessions, Ford, Robinson, Stuckey, Lowry, or Brooks. (all guys who either have a shot to improve or are capable of putting up an all star type season)

Again, this comes down to how well he can score. If he averages under 10 points a game, he will not be an all star. Ever.

[TroyF]

2009: 2 (Paul, Williams)
2008: 4 (Paul, Nash, Williams, Kidd)
2007: 1 (Nash)
2006: 1 (Nash)
2005: 1 (Nash)
2004: 0

I still think you're setting the bar way too high.

I think his point is to consider Rubio a superstar does he have to average those numbers. And I think he's right. If Rubio wants is to be considered an auto all star and a superstar in this league averaging in the 13 point a game and under ballpark, the only way he could be considered that is if he was averaging a ridiculous amount of assists. So the bar is set high if we assume Rubio's scoring skills don't improve a lot. If he gets up to 15 a game and combines that with incredible leadership and passing? Then the assists are set too high.

[sterlingice]

You know how was a good Euro, Toni Kukoc.

For some reason, I thought he was Australian. Not where that came from at all and I know it's incorrect.

SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think his point is to consider Rubio a superstar does he have to average those numbers. And I think he's right. If Rubio wants is to be considered an auto all star and a superstar in this league averaging in the 13 point a game and under ballpark, the only way he could be considered that is if he was averaging a ridiculous amount of assists. So the bar is set high if we assume Rubio's scoring skills don't improve a lot. If he gets up to 15 a game and combines that with incredible leadership and passing? Then the assists are set too high.

Hm. Might just be semantics, or the level of expectations, but I thought we were talking about whether he was bust or not. I do agree with what you're saying.

[Coffee Warlord]

For some reason, I thought he was Australian. Not where that came from at all and I know it's incorrect.

SI

His Bulls championship buddy Luc "Your Job Is To Stand There And Go 'Roar!'" Longley was.

[DaddyTorgo]

His Bulls championship buddy Luc "Your Job Is To Stand There And Go 'Roar!'" Longley was.
:lol:

[MikeVic]

I think my opinion of Rubio comes mostly from reading/listening to Bill Simmons. And he paints a picture that Rubio is a special player. If so, and I'm seeing on FOFC now that he's not a scorer at all... he'll need to average a lot of assists and help his teammates a lot to be considered special.

So TroyF interpreted me correctly.

[MikeVic]

Hm. Might just be semantics, or the level of expectations, but I thought we were talking about whether he was bust or not. I do agree with what you're saying.

Yeah, sorry, maybe I've changed the topic at hand. I was just trying to indicate what I expect from Rubio. Otherwise he'd be a disappointment to me.

[MikeVic]

For some reason, I thought he was Australian. Not where that came from at all and I know it's incorrect.

SI

No, Croatian. He holds a special place in my heart since it was one of the only times me and my dad had similar interests when I was young.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Bill Simmons is rarely right about NBA prospects. He knows the game well, but reread his draft diaries.

[albionmoonlight]

All-star appearances is a somewhat flawed measure of success, but it is an easy one to measure. You either made the game, or you did not.

I supppose that we could also set the over/under on his points/rebounds/assists/wins over the next five or six years. That would be a better measure of success, but also harder to set up.

Basically, I find it interesting that we have such a variance of opinions on the guy. Would be neat to come back here in five years and see if we can measure who was right and who was wrong. And I'm trying to think of the best way to do that.

[Fidatelo]

Yeah, Simmons is pretty bad at judging prospects. I'm pretty sure he jizzed in his pants a few times when writing about Adam Morrison during his draft year.

[Samdari]

I thought we were talking about whether he was bust or not.

We are, but I think we are now trying to define bust.

Was Antonio Daniels a bust? He's played 12 years in the league, and would be a valuable reserve on any team in the league.

But, he was picked 4th, and never came close to being a superstar. Or any sort of star.

He's not a complete washout, but fell fall short of expectations. And he'll help you win - 12 years later. Was he a bust?

If Rubio is one of the top 15 PGs in the league for a 10 year period, I'd not consider him to be a bust, but the 15th best PG rarely makes the all star game.

A better indicator than the all star game is probably the All-NBA team. Its official, and black and white, but only has 15 people each year. Its the elitist of the elite, so might be a bit too high of a standard to expect from anyone.

[DaddyTorgo]

why not define bust by looking strictly at the production during the rookie contract versus other players with similar contracts (rookie or not)?

that's how you'd do it if he was an employee and you were looking at like revenue per employee.

"production per dollar" or something...hmm


i only say per dollar because so much of the NBA is involved with value per dollar - it's why you see guys who aren't great have their rookie options picked up and all, because they're better than replacement value given their affordable salaries

[stevew]

We are, but I think we are now trying to define bust.

Was Antonio Daniels a bust? He's played 12 years in the league, and would be a valuable reserve on any team in the league.

But, he was picked 4th, and never came close to being a superstar. Or any sort of star.

He's not a complete washout, but fell fall short of expectations. And he'll help you win - 12 years later. Was he a bust?

If Rubio is one of the top 15 PGs in the league for a 10 year period, I'd not consider him to be a bust, but the 15th best PG rarely makes the all star game.

A better indicator than the all star game is probably the All-NBA team. Its official, and black and white, but only has 15 people each year. Its the elitist of the elite, so might be a bit too high of a standard to expect from anyone.


I'd say Joe Smith also meets that type of criteria as well. Not a #1 overall type of player, but still a very nice player for a long period of time.

[Arles]

There's an easy way to see if he's a bust - look at the amount of his second contract (if he gets one).

[Gary Gorski]

Breaking news from the D...

Pistons fired Michael Curry! Finally a good move by Joe - it was a terrible experiment to give a rookie coach a playoff calibur team with strong veterans. Why we went through coaches like Carlisle, Brown and Flip to end up with Michael Curry is beyond me but hopefully we can hire a guy with some experience who can help turn this around.

[Gary Gorski]

dola - just please don't hire Laimbeer for the job, Joe

[DaddyTorgo]

Breaking news from the D...

Pistons fired Michael Curry! Finally a good move by Joe - it was a terrible experiment to give a rookie coach a playoff calibur team with strong veterans. Why we went through coaches like Carlisle, Brown and Flip to end up with Michael Curry is beyond me but hopefully we can hire a guy with some experience who can help turn this around.

Dallas? :confused: When did the Pistons move to....ohhhhhh. Yeah....I think that nickname doesn't belong to The Motor City.

[Gary Gorski]

I think that nickname doesn't belong to The Motor City.

It does if you're from around here :)

[DaddyTorgo]

It does if you're from around here :)

hehe

some of my family is.

[TroyF]

We are, but I think we are now trying to define bust.

Was Antonio Daniels a bust? He's played 12 years in the league, and would be a valuable reserve on any team in the league.

But, he was picked 4th, and never came close to being a superstar. Or any sort of star.

He's not a complete washout, but fell fall short of expectations. And he'll help you win - 12 years later. Was he a bust?

If Rubio is one of the top 15 PGs in the league for a 10 year period, I'd not consider him to be a bust, but the 15th best PG rarely makes the all star game.

A better indicator than the all star game is probably the All-NBA team. Its official, and black and white, but only has 15 people each year. Its the elitist of the elite, so might be a bit too high of a standard to expect from anyone.

I think another factor has to be thrown into the "bust" arguement.

Who was picked after the guy? I'm not talking about one guy either. It's easy to say "John Doe" is a bust because he was picked ahead of a guy who became a superstar. To me it really needs to be about the overall quality of the guys out there.

Example:

Let's take Antonio Daniels with the 4th pick in the '97 draft. Guys picked after him who became stars would be: Tracy McGrady.

That's it. Other names of note are Tim Thomas, Scott Pollard, Bobby Jackson, Stephen Jackson and Anthony Johnson (second round picks)

In short, it was a terrible draft. Daniels wasn't picked a lot over what you'd do now.

Now let's look at the '04 draft. The Clippers take Livingston. Guys drafted after him? How about Devin Harris, Deng, Iguadala, Biedrins, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Delonte West, Kevin Martin. Even if you say Livingston would have been Daniels (and he may have been much better), you still have to say the Clippers missed on that one.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I like that Troy, I was looking for some way to get draft strength into the argument. With this year's draft being undoubtedly bad, it doesn't seem fair to say Rubio was picked 4th and compare him to other 4s, particularly from a strong draft like 2003.

[stevew]

Now let's look at the '04 draft. The Clippers take Livingston. Guys drafted after him? How about Devin Harris, Deng, Iguadala, Biedrins, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Delonte West, Kevin Martin. Even if you say Livingston would have been Daniels (and he may have been much better), you still have to say the Clippers missed on that one.

The Luke Jackson pick makes me sick to my stomach. I can't believe the cavs went for him over one of the high upside high school guys.

[Chief Rum]

Now let's look at the '04 draft. The Clippers take Livingston. Guys drafted after him? How about Devin Harris, Deng, Iguadala, Biedrins, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Delonte West, Kevin Martin. Even if you say Livingston would have been Daniels (and he may have been much better), you still have to say the Clippers missed on that one.

Awful example. Livingston had to ahve complete knee reconstruction, had maybe the worst on court knee injury seen in the past decade, and he is clearly not the same player. Not saying he would have been better than any or all of those guys in the long run, but his crapping out wasn't necessarily about talent.

Try again, Troy. Pick someone who stayed healthy and played.

[jbergey22]

It seems this Rubio is quite possibly the most unique player that has ever been drafted. This is probably why their are so many varied opinions on him.

As he is now he doesnt seem like he will be more than a marginal NBA player however he is only 18 and has shown some development in some of the areas you guys talk about. Its really hard to say one way or another at this point as most people are playing high school level at his age while he was playing professional. The next 2-3 years are going to crucial for Rubio.

I only wonder if Lebron James wouldnt have stuggled playing professional ball in Europe at age 15 as well. Lebron is an athletic freak and that would seperate him somewhat however he wasnt blessed with a great shot either.

Keep in mind Kobe Bryant shot .417 his first year out of high school and really didnt come into the Kobe we know until his 3rd year out. Lebron James also shot .417 his first year out athough was still one of the best rookies we've ever seen. Kevin Garnett shot .491 starting half way through his rookie year athough his numbers werent even comparable to what they would become a couple years later.

Its a bit premature to say that Rubio cant develop a shot. I am more concerned about his seemingly lack of quickness.

[whomario]

We're going have to agree to disagree on the level of competition in Euroleague vs college. Spending more time typing it does not make your explanation correct.

Rubio played 64 minutes TOTAL in Euroleague this year.

But you cannot possibly think a European minor league, where Rubio has spend most of the last year, is superior to elite US college ball, can you?
.

he was injured at the beginning of the season where his teams´s Euroleague games were, is that so hard to grasp ?

It is not a minor league, you simply don´t get how European Basketball works it seems.
Let me try it different : It is like the NCAA tournament (actually it isn´t, but it comes close enough to make my point), only that it is played paralell to league play and based on last season´s national standings. Which is huge as a lot of european teams change their roster. So they might have a great team, qualify for the euroleague but then finish 12th out of 18 in their home league next season. Imagine the NCAA tournament being determined by last season´s standings and played with a new batch of players and last years stars off to the NBA.
Do you also think that the Big East is a minor league ? No, it is a regional league where the bottom half (that won´t make the tournament) would propably beat 20 other NCAA torunament teams 9 out of 10 times and had a fighting chance against all but the Top 10 or 15 from the other major leagues.
It is the same in Europe : Every National League sends a certain number of teams to the Euroleague depending on last season´s league position and for those reason and the ones above there´s not the 32 strongest European teams there, just like the NCAA tournament does not field the 64 best College Teams.

Almost any spanish team could play competititvely in the Euroleague, just like almost every Big East Team could be competitive in the Tournament.




Lastly, I think whomario is vasly overrating the euro leagues. There may be 14 or 15 better players than Suton out there, but they weren't draft eligible. (or they'd have been taken) There were 14 total Euros taken in the NBA draft. NBA teams know where to go to find the best talent. Sometimes they do this to too high of a degree. (which is why we see so many Euro busts taken in the top 5)

But what has being "draft eligible" to do with quality of play or the quality of the teams ? That is the whole point i am making here, that there are players aged 23+ in Europe, which is a factor you just can´t ignore if you watch European basketball games. I mean, i see tons of games from all levels (NBA, College, Europe), how many European club games did you guys see last year ? Or ever ?
The level of play and the difficulty for young players to excel is much higher than in College. Again, Jennings wasn´t a surprise to anyone following European basketball. And he might just become a very good NBA player.
On a star system of 1-5, a fully developed 2 star talent player is better than a 18 year old 4 star level talent every time.
I mean, just look at College again. Unless players are budding superstars, the average junior or senior is a way better performer (not talent, performer) and thus gets way more minutes than the average Freshman or Sophomore because he has more experience and is further developed. That doesn´t say anything about talent, but if every team would play only their seniors and juniors the level of play would be better than if every team only played their freshmen and sophomores (that is if everyone stayed in school for 4 years, but even without that it would be way different than you´d assume going by "talent" )
A class of seniors would beat an equally talented class of juniors (in an ideal world) 9 out of 10 times, the Juniors would beat the sophs 9 out of 10 times, and those would beat the freshmen 9 out of 10 times.

I am not claiming Rubio will be a super star or anything, all i am saying is that him coming from Europe won´t have anything to do with it. He would have been a star in College. Thus him suposedly facing weak competition and therefore automatically being doomed is just plain wrong.

[jbergey22]

Some people havent been watching the Olympics lately if they think the US talent pool is sooooo much greater than Europe. Until the redeem team it looked like the US had lost its stranglehold on the sport.

[Passacaglia]

Almost any spanish team could play competititvely in the Euroleague, just like almost every Big East Team could be competitive in the Tournament.




Finally some good news for DePaul!

[Samdari]

Now let's look at the '04 draft. The Clippers take Livingston. Guys drafted after him? How about Devin Harris, Deng, Iguadala, Biedrins, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Delonte West, Kevin Martin. Even if you say Livingston would have been Daniels (and he may have been much better), you still have to say the Clippers missed on that one.

I am not a big fan of labelling guys whose careers were clearly ended/hampered by injury as busts. Their grades have to remain forever incomplete. Livingston started very slowly, then was starting to show real promise before having his career effectively ended by injury.

[Samdari]

he was injured at the beginning of the season where his teams´s Euroleague games were, is that so hard to grasp ?

It is not a minor league, you simply don´t get how European Basketball works it seems. .

You are clinging to the idea that because someone disagrees with you they must not have understood you. I understand, yet respectfully disagree with your assessment of the relative strength of European national leagues vs top level NCAA basketball.

Thanks for the wonderful explanation on how European basketball works. I already knew that. Object to the term minor league if you want - and while I acknowledge the term is not strictly accurate, I still think that Euroleague would represent the highest level competition over there, and the best national league represents AAA competition to that Major league level.

On a star system of 1-5, a fully developed 2 star talent player is better than a 18 year old 4 star level talent every time.
I mean, just look at College again. Unless players are budding superstars, the average junior or senior is a way better performer (not talent, performer) and thus gets way more minutes than the average Freshman or Sophomore because he has more experience and is further developed. That doesn´t say anything about talent, but if every team would play only their seniors and juniors the level of play would be better than if every team only played their freshmen and sophomores (that is if everyone stayed in school for 4 years, but even without that it would be way different than you´d assume going by "talent" )
A class of seniors would beat an equally talented class of juniors (in an ideal world) 9 out of 10 times, the Juniors would beat the sophs 9 out of 10 times, and those would beat the freshmen 9 out of 10 times.

This shows you know absolutely nothing about college hoops. This could not be more wrong. Yes, a fully developed 4 star player is almost invariably better than the freshman 4 star. But, the fully developed 2 star is almost never better. The way it works here is, those 4 star guys go to the NBA after 1 or 2 years. So, you never have the situation of senior 4 star guys playing junior 4 star guys - the senior 4 star rarely happens.

However, what you do have, is freshman and sophomore 4 stars kicking the crap out of senior 2 star guys on a regular basis. The best (I don't mean most talented, I mean best) players are almost invariably freshman and sophomores. The coach with senior 2 stars gets fired and is an assistant for the coach with the freshman 4 stars the next season.

You use Jennings as an example of how good the leagues are over there. I maintain that the reasons he did not play had far more to do with team politics than ability. Jennings was the best player on his team, preiod. I guarantee that if you brought his whole team to the NBA right now, Jennings would be the only one to make an impact.

I am not claiming Rubio will be a super star or anything, all i am saying is that him coming from Europe won´t have anything to do with it. He would have been a star in College. Thus him suposedly facing weak competition and therefore automatically being doomed is just plain wrong.

I don't think he is doomed because he played in Europe, or is from Europe. Obviously you can succeed coming from there. I have been maintaining that he has proven nothing (and shown very little) against high quality competition. I still think that's huge red flag for Rubio, and that he belongs in the highly talented project category (and worthy of a late first round pick) than in the sure fire star category that his top 5 selection should warrant.

[stevew]

Unfortunately, Rubio basically had to be a top 3-5 pick in order to afford his buyout this year. Or had to drop into the 2nd round. Unless a lot has changed, he could be drafted in the 20s and would never see the NBA.

[Arles]

I think whomario has a point, let me try and rephrase. I "solid" 29-year old Europe player is going to be much better than your average 19-year US college player. Now, the top 10-15% of US college ball is a much higher talent level than the top 10-15% of European leagues, but it's also very raw. By and large, European basketball has a lot of well-disciplined, good fundamentals and mature players that make it a much more tougher league to play against game in and game out.

Take someone like Curry and Rubio. Curry played *maybe* 5 teams comparable to Pro Europe teams (OK, Duke, Purdue, Butler and St. Marys). And those teams all had very young (ie, under 20) stars. Rubio faces teams with 28-32 year old stars on a daily basis and has to not only deal with a fair amount of talent, but also fully developed/mature players. Curry would play 5 teams he should dominate, then get one similarly aged team with raw talent. Then back to another 5 stiffs. So, I would say that a team of fully developed/mature 2 and 3 stars who are 28 years old is tougher for a 17-20 year old than a group of 4 star 18-19 year olds.

Now, when it comes to the NBA, I think Rubio needs more physical maturity than basketball development. European leagues are just as good as a "Davidson" or "St Marys" when it comes to basketball competition for 17-19 year olds. The only difference is a top kid may get 40 MPG on Davidson while a top European youngster rarely gets more than 25.

[Schmidty]

Yay!!!! Curry's gone!!!!

Michael Curry fired as Detroit Pistons coach - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4297296)

[Logan]

http://fearandarrogance.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dumb-and-dumber-man-walks-on-moon.png

[Schmidty]

I don't get it.

[RainMaker]

Bill Simmons is rarely right about NBA prospects. He knows the game well, but reread his draft diaries.
I don't think he follows college or the European game much at all. But he does have very good connections with management from various teams and I think his opinion is shaped by them in a way.

I will give him credit for being the only NBA writer I can think of who was saying that Portland should take Durant over Oden.

[TroyF]

Guys,

I didn't have time this morning to go through 25 drafts and find the thing I was looking for. I only used Livingston because he was a high pick that didn't pan out in a class full of solid picks. I understand he didn't pan out due to injuries and that he had shown promise. (heck, the Nuggets wanted him last year but he signed in OKC and still yet make something of his career)

My only point was that the strength of the draft class AFTER a player gets picked is important in me deciding if someone is a bust or not, no matter how their careers play out. I guess I should have went with something like "Assume you move Daniels to the #4 pick in the Livingston draft. He would go from a decent pick to an absolute bust because of the quality of the guys picked after him."

I didn't mean to pick on poor Sean or the Clippers.

------------------------------------------------

A couple of more things about Euro leagues:

1) There was a comment made about how the US has been getting beaten by Euro league, teams, thus they have more talent. Well, not so much. Spain and Argentina, the toughest teams for the US to face are littered with NBA talent. The US team finally played together with a system in place and destroyed everyone but Spain this year. Spain had 9 guys on it's roster who had NBA experience or would be drafted in this years draft. Argentina had 5 guys with NBA experience.

2) I understand. Rubio was a 17 year old kid going against grown men. Thus he didn't play a lot. He also battled injury. I get it. I also get that the kid has no jump shot. That he's never scored at a high level on either his club team or his national team. (he has in under 18 and 16 tournies, but we'd all agree that's a different level, right?)

3) I have watched Euro basketball when it's been on NBA tv. I actually like it. But I'm sorry, I don't see the level of athleticism I see in college basketball arenas at the higher levels. I see experience, good systems, a lot of team play, good fundamentals, etc. I don't see a ton of athetes. Sorry, I just won't agree with you that the pro leagues in Europe would dominate college basketball. I don't see it.

[Arles]

I don't think anyone says that pro league would dominate the top 25 in college basketball. My point was that Europe is atleast comparable to a mid-major (a la Davidson) and more challenging for younger (ie, weaker strength-wise) players to cope with. If I am a 6-4, 175-pound 18-year old, I would much rather play against similar 18-20 year olds (with a little more talent) for 30 games than a bunch of bruising/experienced/fundamentally sound 29-year old fully developed adults. The combination of the pounding and the discipline needed to play 30 games in that environment is much more mentally (and physically) exhausting than playing against similar 19-year old gazelles that play the same fast and somewhat undisciplined game.

Rubio may face less talent from the top 15-20% as a Curry did, but he takes a heck of a lot more of a pounding and can't take nights off and stay competitive.

[Chief Rum]

I didn't mean to pick on poor Sean or the Clippers.

To be fair, the Clippers have plenty of picks that easily qualify for what I think you were going for. Olowakandi, Korolev, Bo Kimble, Lamond Murray, etc. I would have to look at the draft classes they entered the league in, but you might even be able to make a case for Lamar Odom and Chris Kaman.

Shawn's one of my favorite players in the league, from a personal standpoint. Just an honest to God great kid, from all reports. It was awful what happened to him. If there's someone in the league to root for, he's the one. I'm afraid that knee injury may be nearly impossible to come back from, though.

You shouldn't be surprised Shawn didn't make much of an impact with OKC. He's still just about two years and some months removed from his injury, and even a normal knee injury takes two years to really get back from, from what I understand, and Livingston pretty much tore every ligament in his knee. This was definitely a transition year for him--he was almost certainly not going to do anything this year.

Now next season, we'll see, if the knee ends up doing in his career or if he can forge ahead to become at least a competent backup.

[RainMaker]

I don't think Kaman is a bust at all. He was actually one of the best Centers in the league in 07-08 and I think could be a borderline All-Star on the right team and right system. He's a solid #6 pick who unfortunately was picked by the Clippers.

[Chief Rum]

I don't think Kaman is a bust at all. He was actually one of the best Centers in the league in 07-08 and I think could be a borderline All-Star on the right team and right system. He's a solid #6 pick who unfortunately was picked by the Clippers.

I was talking bust from the perspective Troy's coming from, comparing him to players picked after him. I think Kaman was LeBron's draft, and I would be surprised if someone better than him wasn't drafted behind him.

Kaman is a very good center in a largely center-less league, and as a Clips fan, I have always liked him. Two seasons ago, when he was filling in for Brand, he was excellent and got jobbed for an All Star nod.

The problem is, Kaman has proven to be too fragile and take too long to get back into playing shape once he comes back. Your value diminishes a ton when you play 40 games a year, and each time you get hurt, it takes 5-7 games for you to get back to even 80% of your prior production (and usually by then he's picked up another nagging injury that puts him out for another stretch).

[jbergey22]

Guys,


3) I have watched Euro basketball when it's been on NBA tv. I actually like it. But I'm sorry, I don't see the level of athleticism I see in college basketball arenas at the higher levels. I see experience, good systems, a lot of team play, good fundamentals, etc. I don't see a ton of athetes. Sorry, I just won't agree with you that the pro leagues in Europe would dominate college basketball. I don't see it.

I have watched NBA basketball when its been on NBA.tv. I actually like it. But Im sorry, I dont see the level of athleticism I see in Track&Field arenas at higher levels. I see experience, good systems, a ton of team play, good fundamentals, etc. I dont see a ton of athletes. Sorry I wont agree that the NBA wouldnt dominate Track & Field. I dont see it.

Basketball has become purely a sport built on athleticism apparently.

[Atocep]

I have watched NBA basketball when its been on NBA.tv. I actually like it. But Im sorry, I dont see the level of athleticism I see in Track&Field arenas at higher levels. I see experience, good systems, a ton of team play, good fundamentals, etc. I dont see a ton of athletes. Sorry I wont agree that the NBA wouldnt dominate Track & Field. I dont see it.

Basketball has become purely a sport built on athleticism apparently.

What do you think the major difference between mid major and major college basketball is?

[jbergey22]

What do you think the major difference between mid major and major college basketball is?

Defense

[sterlingice]

And about 3 inches of height and a bunch of speed at almost every position...

SI

[jbergey22]

And about 3 inches of height and a bunch of speed at almost every position...

SI

Yup this too. Athough Memphis the previous couple of years have had the best athletes in college basketball and have yet to win the Natl Championship.

And comparing the Europeans best to mid majors is a little ridiculous IMO.

The results dont really lie. There is a reason the European teams can play with the USA since 1992 and we probably would all agree the USA has better athletes as far as basketball is concerned.

[sterlingice]

To be fair, when we (Kansas) beat Memphis in 2008, we had a hell of an athletic team too. Arguably, we were more skilled and more mature and that made a difference.*

*Tho, realistically, we won because we got really lucky and they bricked a bunch of FTs and we got a miracle pair of threes down the stretch.

SI

[TroyF]

If you don't think athleticism is a critical reason the NBA is the top league, you are crazy.

How many guys with the athleticism of a Rajon Rondo has young Ricky faced? Guess what, every team in this league has freakish athletes. You are talking about a league full of 6'9" and above PF/C who can make PG's lives miserable when they penetrate. Especially guys who take SET SHOTS from beyond 15 feet. (Yeah, I'm talking about Rubio, see how quickly that set shot works in this league. . . I'd have loved to have seen him try it at the college level too)

Lastly, when are people going to understand what went wrong with USA basketball from '92 til this year? Is it really that tough to figure out? We had a bunch of all-stars playing selfishly, coaches who mailed it in (I'm looking at you Larry Brown and George Karl), no familiarity with each other, and everyone tried to play the NBA game on an international level.

A few years ago we decided to get smart. Get a coach who took it seriously, force players to make commitments, got leadership from the best players, put in a system that could excel in international competition,

From that point on, we started blitzing teams again. Not just beating them, but pounding them. Look at the results:

2008 FIBA qualifying:

US played Argentina twice, beating them 91-76 and then 118-81 in the championship game. They didn't lose a game in the tourney and scored 112 points in 9 of their 10 games. (no other team in the tourney scored over 108 points and there were only 7 games where a non USA team scored 100 points)

2008 Olympics:

The US crushed every team they played by over 20 points until the final. Spain put up a fight and the US still won by 11. Rubio hit one shot in 29 minutes in that game by the way.

Again, if you want to pretend athleticism in basketball doesn't matter, be my guest. I can assure you that you are wrong in that assessment.

[TroyF]

To be fair, when we (Kansas) beat Memphis in 2008, we had a hell of an athletic team too. Arguably, we were more skilled and more mature and that made a difference.*

*Tho, realistically, we won because we got really lucky and they bricked a bunch of FTs and we got a miracle pair of threes down the stretch.

SI


Thanks SI, I forgot to add this. Chalmers, Rush - starting players in the NBA. Arthur, 1st round NBA pick. Kaun was also drafted and now plays overseas.

That Kansas roster was pretty damned talented.

[Samdari]

Yup this too. Athough Memphis the previous couple of years have had the best athletes in college basketball and have yet to win the Natl Championship.

And comparing the Europeans best to mid majors is a little ridiculous IMO.

The results dont really lie. There is a reason the European teams can play with the USA since 1992 and we probably would all agree the USA has better athletes as far as basketball is concerned.

I am not sure Memphis had better athletes than Kansas at all. Derrick Rose was obviously the best player on the court, but Kansas might have had the next 6 or 7 after that. A big deal was made out of Dorsey, but I think had he been on Kansas' roster, he would have been behind Cole Aldrich.

Kansas won in 2008 because they had the most talent, as did UNC in 2009.