WW XCII Athens -- Destroyed by Wolves!

[USFLTecmo]

Marathon Runners – Two players (one villager, one wolf) will travel from one city to another instead of to Hades. They will have this ability one time (once they’ve fled a city, they will not be welcome back). This will occur automatically, but may be “turned off’ by sending me a PM. When a Marathon Runner flees a city, the city will find out that he fled, but will not learn his allegiance.

From this, I don't gather that the Marathon Runner can do it by choice, they'd have to be lynched. Pass, can you verify that?

[Passacaglia]

From this, I don't gather that the Marathon Runner can do it by choice, they'd have to be lynched. Pass, can you verify that?

That's correct.

[Abe Sargent]

Further notes: Abe suggested even if we're winning the city, that we should abandon Athens and declare war on Sparta. The rules clearly state that would give the abandoned city to the wolves, so that is a wolf suggestion and makes Abe look pretty bad.



That's a misquote. I said if we had WON the city, not if we are currently winning, if it were allowed without the normal stuff.

[PurdueBrad]

Well hey, other marathon runner, come on out and sign up to be lynched. You know, it won't hurt a bit and it lets everyone know I'm good and, well, that you're not.


It was worth a shot.

[MartinD]

I don't think we have the luxury to information shop right now. We could either be 6-2 or 5-3, so (or possibly 7-1 or 6-2 if Schmidty was a wolf). I'd rather not shop for info, but try to unearth wolves. Only reason I'd vote for is the basic 50/50 he has of being a wolf, not because we get good info from him, if that makes sense.

I agree with what you're saying here - the 50/50 chance of finding a wolf is the main thing. I was just pointing out an additional consequence if the group was to decide to lynch PurdueBrad, not trying to make an argument for lynching him.

[Lathum]

I was thinking along the lines of what CR is thinking.

Anyone see a reason why our runner shouldn't out themselves?

My concern is if we lynch PB and he is good our runner is still well hidden.

If we insist our marathon runner outs himself it guarentees us a wolf kill, either tonight or tomorrow.

If they don't out themselves it elevates PB in my mind, thoughts?

[Chief Rum]

Well hey, other marathon runner, come on out and sign up to be lynched. You know, it won't hurt a bit and it lets everyone know I'm good and, well, that you're not.


It was worth a shot.

Actually, the fact that this role can only be activated by lynch doesn't change much, except that instead of the other Marathon Runner choosing to flee, we will have to do a lynch after all.

But the effect is the same. Here are the two scenarios:

1. PurdueBrad is evil MR, Athens' Unknown MR is good
2. PurdueBrad is good MR, Athens' Unknown MR is evil

We know we have another Marathon Runner here, and that MR knows he is of opposite allegiance to PurdueBrad. If he is good (Scenario #1), he needs to come out now, because he knows we have a wolf in our midst, and what other possible good is the MR role? Even if he gets lynched, he just goes to Sparta, but if we lynch an evil PB, we send him to Hades.

Note: Correct, Pass? MRs only get to flee once, right, not just go back and forth? So if PB is lynched again, he goes to Hades?

If it is Scenario #2, the evil unknown MR has two options, come out or stay hidden. If he stays hidden, I am going to presume PB is a cleared villager, and recommend everyone else do the same (wolves will probably then use their nigth kill on PB tomorrow). If the evil unknown MR comes out (and I assume claims to be good), then we will vote between PB and the other MR. If PB (good in this scenario) is lynched, we will know automatically that the other MR is evil, and will lynch him on Day 3. If the MR is lynched in Scneario #2, we remove a wolf (well, off to Sparta), and we have a cleared villager in PB.

[Chief Rum]

I was thinking along the lines of what CR is thinking.

Anyone see a reason why our runner shouldn't out themselves?

My concern is if we lynch PB and he is good our runner is still well hidden.

If we insist our marathon runner outs himself it guarentees us a wolf kill, either tonight or tomorrow.

If they don't out themselves it elevates PB in my mind, thoughts?

Much more succinctly put then my post above. Exactly, Lathum.

[Chief Rum]

That's a misquote. I said if we had WON the city, not if we are currently winning, if it were allowed without the normal stuff.

Nothing in the rules stated that a city that was won is safe from being handed to the wolves by a Declare War move. The only thing stated clearly is that Declaring War hands the abandoned city to the wolves.

[Passacaglia]

Note: Correct, Pass? MRs only get to flee once, right, not just go back and forth? So if PB is lynched again, he goes to Hades?

Right.

[Chief Rum]

Leaving for my other job. I figure if we don't hear from the other MR by tonight, PB is cleared, and we can go lynch someone else.

[Abe Sargent]

Nothing in the rules stated that a city that was won is safe from being handed to the wolves by a Declare War move. The only thing stated clearly is that Declaring War hands the abandoned city to the wolves.

Which is why I said if Passa allowed it or was okay with it.

[Abe Sargent]

Leaving for my other job. I figure if we don't hear from the other MR by tonight, PB is cleared, and we can go lynch someone else.

I figure we are already there, because everyone has had a chance to check in. I know if I were the villager Marathon Runner, I would have jumped out immediately and let you know, so by my reckoning, PB is safe.

[Abe Sargent]

Damnit I accidentally clicked on the Hades thread by accident, saw a post by Schmidty, and hightailed itout of there and slapped my hand. Sorry :(

[Passacaglia]

Which is why I said if Passa allowed it or was okay with it.

Is this a question for me somehow?

[Abe Sargent]

we aren;t there yet, or anywhere near it, so I wasn;t worried nor do I aslk a lot fo quesitons early. I'm no question-matic.

[Passacaglia]

we aren;t there yet, or anywhere near it, so I wasn;t worried nor do I aslk a lot fo quesitons early. I'm no question-matic.

Okay, just making sure.

[hoopsguy]

A quiet day is followed up by a quiet night, it appears.

[hoopsguy]

I'm not sure how to analyze votes in this game, given that the wolves have the ability to send their own down to Hades. But I think, at least for Day 1, that I would like to assume that we lost a pair of villagers today.

Assumption #1: we started with two wolves in each location, which means that we had 7-2 starting here
Assumption #2: we lost two villagers today, making the ratio 5-2, with the introduction of PurdueBrad

So we are either at 5-3 or 6-2. One scenario is manageable, the other one puts us in a very tenuous position for Day 2.

The only villager who knows which of those two is the truth is the Marathon Runner. Obviously the wolves know where they stand. Initially I was not necessarily onboard with the popular wisdom of the Marathon Runner revealing himself (just push PB hard enough and I suspect it would be clear soon enough) but selfishly I would like to know where I stand right now.

[hoopsguy]

Abe Sargent
USFLTecmo
Lathum - potential Ethor
hoopsguy - villager (self-cleared)
MartinD
Schmidty - Hades, presumed villager by night kill
Chief Rum
TheNorm - potential Ethor
PurdueBrad - Marathoner, which one?
EagleFan - Hades, villager by lynch

So, if we are going to work with the idea that PB is cleared, then that leaves four potential candidates for vote tomorrow: Abe, USFL, MartinD, and Chief Rum.

EagleFan was hot to trot on Abe, but there is no way he could have "known" anything as a vanilla villager (or any roled villager on Day 1).

ChiefRum has played "helpful villager" in terms of discussion, which is a little out of character for him early in the game. He is usually more of a closer than a starting pitcher, to use a somewhat ill-fitting analogy.

I do not have much on USFL and MartinD, but will go through posts tomorrow morning and see if I can put together some impressions on them. I've expressed a desire in other games to go after the quiet guys rather than vocal players when I'm deadlocked. Push comes to shove, I'm leaning there at the moment. If PB = good then we have two days to get this right and I'll bet that one of our wolves is under the radar.

Heck with it, placeholder vote for now. Hope that he responds this evening (his last post suggests he will have time), as I know he doesn't have a ton of availability tomorrow. But if I/we do not rattle the cages a little bit then UTR is a pretty attractive way to play the game.

VOTE MARTIND

[Abe Sargent]

I'd rather you voted for me than a guy who won;t be around much tomorrow and already said so. That feels a bit slimy.

[hoopsguy]

We'll see if that is where it stays, Abe. But not being around and not posting should not be a path to werewolf victory either. Bottom line, his post said he would be checking in before work (2AM in CST) and he should have a chance to speak his mind. I do not feel like I'm dropping an ambush on him like the one I received last game.

[Lathum]

So no one is coming out as the marathoner, so we can assume PB is cleared at this point.

[Lathum]

I'd rather you voted for me than a guy who won;t be around much tomorrow and already said so. That feels a bit slimy.

I refuse to give people slack for this anymore.

I'm not saying I support Hoops' vote, but people get way to much slack for not being available at the right times.

[hoopsguy]

Heading to bed, discussion to be continued tomorrow.

[Lathum]

Abe Sargent -- 2 EagleFan (152) TheNorm (155)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)


I am starting to wonder if there was something to TheNorm and Abe. Not only did Abe push for TheNorm to be Ephor, and TheNorm voted for Abe. That links them on a few fronts.

Now we obviously can't vote Norm, but I am wondering if Abe is the way to go today.

VOTE ABE

[MartinD]

hoops - can see your line of thinking in pointing your vote my way, as it's a good way of getting someone who hasn't posted much to get involved. You're not going to find a wolf here, though - just a non-roled villager.

This is very likely to be the last chance I'll have to get online before deadline, so I'll put a vote out there now. While going after PB gives us a 50/50 chance of finding a wolf on the surface, the refusal of the Athens marathon runner to come forward suggests that PB is the 'good' runner.

Of the others in the group, there's enough suspicion around Abe following his earlier actions to suggest that there's value in putting a bit of pressure on him.

VOTE ABE SARGENT

[Chief Rum]

Following the same path of logic as hoops, going down who's left...

Most Trusted

Chief Rum--Only guy I know is a villager for sure
PurdueBrad--Until the other MR comes out, I have to assume he's good)

Somewhat Trusted

Lathum--He's saying the right things, and they jibe with what I am saying. Plus, he's possibly the Ephor.

No Read Yet

USFLTecmo, MartinD-- Same deal, under the radar, lack of experience with them; I just can't go there yet

Slight Distrust

TherNorm-- Purely because he is another I have no read on, but he was sorta supported by a player I am less than sure about, and he may have a power (which makes him dangerous, especially for being difficult to read)

Distrust

Abe Sargent-- The overt signs are suspicious, the vote for TheNorm, not mentioning the possibility that Declaring War means giving the city to the wolves (even if I acknowledge Pass's rules on it are vague, there's no doubt there is a question, and ABe was advocating it without asking that question). All that said, my gut says he's a misunderstood villager.

hoops-- Complete gut call here. hoops has done nothing evident. But the wolves didn't choose to send him away, and he's an awfully dangerous player to leave around (yes, I know that goes for me as well). Plus, he is usually posting more and more insightful, IMO, and his game seems off to what I am used to. So my gut is pretty suspicious of hoops right now.

I am going to go with that gut for now, but I am certainly open to changing my vote.

VOTE HOOPS

[USFLTecmo]

I am starting to wonder if there was something to TheNorm and Abe. Not only did Abe push for TheNorm to be Ephor, and TheNorm voted for Abe. That links them on a few fronts.

Now we obviously can't vote Norm, but I am wondering if Abe is the way to go today.

VOTE ABE

I'm not following why we can't vote Norm. If he's the Ephor and bad, he can protect Abe, or he can let him go, and gain a small bit of trust with the thought pattern "hey look, he could have saved him if he had the power, but he didn't."

On the other hand, if we vote him out, and he has the Ephor power, he'd pretty much have to use it, or take it with him to Hades. We lose a villager for sure if he's a bad Ephor, but at the same time, we're gonna anyway at some point if this is the case, so we can force the issue into the open here, especially given that we've pretty much cleared PB at this point.

Of course, this is all based on him having the Ephor powers, which is a 50/50 shot, as far as I can tell.

I suppose we can always go with the "If he IS a bad Ephor, we're pretty well screwed over at this point anyway" logic and pursue something else, too.

Back around 9-10 AM Central to follow up on this. Work calls.

[hoopsguy]

Chief, with all due respect to Schmidty, I would have sent you away as a wolf. Athens is effectively a "small game" which means that there isn't much time for a wolf to try and be cute with their patterns - just take out the most threatening players (by role or game) as quickly as possible. Or at least, that is how I would play it.

I'm not shocked that I'm still alive on Day 2. I'm pretty shocked that you, me, Lathum, and Abe are all still around and kicking, however. With that group, I do not think I can assume that I've been scanned by the seer. However, I would wager that by the start of Day 3 the odds are better than 50/50 that I've been seer scanned. Just as it works against me as a wolf, I would hope that it would work for me to some small extent when I'm a villager.

[hoopsguy]

USFL - we can vote for whoever we want. The logic with the potential Ephor candidates is "why did we put them up for the duke role if we were going to vote them out the next day?"

Two people put forth candidates for the Ephors - Abe (TheNorm) and Chief Rum (first EagleFan, then Lathum). Abe is catching heat for his nomination because he provided logic for it, but Chief is getting a free pass because his selections were "random". It is entirely possible that Chief's selections were random, but none of us know that for sure.

This is one of the logic gaps that I've been wrestling with since yesterday. I'm sure I'll post on the other one at some point but for now I'm trying to make sense of the collective "groupthink" and see if I can figure out who has an agenda.

[hoopsguy]

For now,
UNVOTE MARTIND

[PurdueBrad]

Actually, I am going out guns blazing. Follow along if you want to nail a wolf day one. The more I think about my theory number two the more it makes sense. Lynch Abe today. IF he turns up clean than I will even vote for myself on day two.

I don't have a strong read on most, but I think a couple things were odd: Eaglefan deciding, rather than to try self-preservation on USFL, to go after Abe, the move to put a relatively inexperienced player in the duke position (particularly because I think CR proved that if played well, it can be devastating), and because of his vote on EF. I will start the day:

voting Abe

[Lathum]

I'm not following why we can't vote Norm. If he's the Ephor and bad, he can protect Abe, or he can let him go, and gain a small bit of trust with the thought pattern "hey look, he could have saved him if he had the power, but he didn't."

.

Basicly what hoops said.

We decided on 2 Ephor candidates with the agreement they would use their power on a candidate we all agreed on.

Why potentialy vote out the Ephor then, forcing them to use the power and essentialy wasting it by putting the lynch in one persons hands. Kind of defeats the purpose.

[Abe Sargent]

I don't have a strong read on most, but I think a couple things were odd: Eaglefan deciding, rather than to try self-preservation on USFL, to go after Abe, the move to put a relatively inexperienced player in the duke position (particularly because I think CR proved that if played well, it can be devastating), and because of his vote on EF. I will start the day:

voting Abe

My viote on EF was retalitory Day One. He voted for me, and I not having anybody better to do, voted for him. Nothign sinister there.

[Abe Sargent]

I think we've all seen this issue:

Someone on Day One or Day Two, a roleless villager, screams bloody murder at another player and claims they are a wolf up and down. Then that roleless villager dies. They had no more information than the rest of the village does, but the village starts to believe them, because they are the only person who is confirmed good, and so they go where that person said to go, even though they have no special knowledge,. Instead, the village votes out another villager and they are farther behind the 8 ball.

EF was pissed off and thought me a wolf because he didn;t like my logic behind voting for an impartial person duke, because he might be new to this board, which i see as a positive in a duke because he's impartial.

Like my logic or not, I don;t lead from out front that far as a wolf. Never havenot once. "But Abe, perhaps this time..." Nope. Never do it. I'm not comfortable being out in front as the wolf, only as a villager, because if I goof up, its not like I'm hurting my people or anything.

I made a vote and explained it. Whether you like my logic or not, it is my own and I stand by it. I don;t give a rat's ass if you like it or not, but I prefer my duke to be as impartial as possible. No tunnel vision for TheNorm. No worries about being too close for TheNorm. Plus, let's be hoest folks, suppose we accidentally gave the duke to a wolf. Would you rather wolf Lathum have the duke role, or wold TheNorm. Seriously, how was my logic that off?

EF may have had a stick up his butt about it, but he had nothing. I'm tired of discussing this dumb ass point. I will no longer talk about my vote for TheNorm, or why I chose him. Like, don;t like, vote me off, whatever, but I;m tired of this point.

[Passacaglia]

Morning vote count:


MartinD -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 3 Lathum (276) MartinD (277) PurdueBrad (283)
hoopsguy -- 1 Chief Rum (278)

[Abe Sargent]

THis is purely SD because I'm not getting a bad vibe from him.


vote hoops

[PurdueBrad]

Sorry Abe, just going off of what I saw in the brief read through.

[PurdueBrad]

Oh Abe, now your in my wheelhouse too! Everyone knows how much I love voting for Hoops! Oh man, what to do. Abe or Hoops, Hoops or Abe...hmmmm, it failed the last two times I voted for one of you.

[PurdueBrad]

My vote will definitely, unless some greater evidence is thrown out there, going to be on one of the four that voted for EF. I'm with Abe right now but that could change. I am surprised to see Abe, Hoops, and Lathum, all vets, all in the same place on day 1 and all still alive (compared to the Schmidty night kill).

[hoopsguy]

Well, I've got a couple of changes today from what I planned. First, the company I'm visiting has tightened up their firewall. So I'm not going to be posting much from here. Second, I've got a co-worker shadowing me. Another reason that I won't be posting much.

I'm far from convinced that Abe is our wolf - if anything, I tilt towards him as villager - but I'm not going to have time to really work through alternate candidates. So Abe and I are both self-defense votes, which ends up escalating a confrontation involving at least one villager and very possibly two.

I'll try to come back and see if there has been any other movement, but no promises.

VOTE ABE SARGENT

[Abe Sargent]

That one I totally get.

[Abe Sargent]

Alright, hold on for a second those who are here, I;m about to reveal.

[USFLTecmo]

Topping it off to avoid a potential wolf that's on Abe now unvoting right at the deadline and getting two for one. Very willing to be swayed on this, though.

VOTE ABE

[Abe Sargent]

I am out from 11:20 until 1:10 or so, amd I have meetings at 1:30, 2-3;3), and 3:3-0 until 5,. I may not have muych time later to do this.

[USFLTecmo]

You have my attention.

[Abe Sargent]

Alright, here is why voting for me is really bad for the village.

A). I;m a villager. Math is probably 6-2 right now (assumption : Schmidity is not a wolf and neither is PB). Vote for me, successful night kill, makes it 4-2 and it is very hard for the village to win from there.

B). Unlike normal lynches, you will get no info from me. I am a Phoenix. I know you may say, well, 50/50 shot right, but I am a villager, and you will not know. Ergo, you will not be able to use any info from killing me to further the village's agenda. So, you will be looking at 4-2, and without any additional information that you can use, it will be like Day Two all over again.

Now, you may be saying, 50/50 chance of getting a wolf, lynch Abe! that math holds for PB and no one should vote him, since he is likely villager. Sparta made the coin flip mistake yesterday and it hurt them.

All I can say is that no way am I a wolf, and it would make sense that I am a villager. Passa said that roles were somewhat random and we can;t know exactly how he assigned which one of each pair to each city. However, would it not make sense to have the wolf MR in one city with the village Phoenix, and vice versa? Again, Passa cannot tell us this for sure, because then we'd only have to prove one in order to know the other three, but that seems likely to me.

So, I am a villager and a phoenix. I suspect you will likely vote me off anyway, but that would be bad for the village both ways, as I have described above. I suspect I have too many votes on me, and people will say, Enhh, it's too much work to try to find real wolves, I;m just going to stick with the supposed 50/50 and move on.

Anyway, have fun all.

[Lathum]

Abe, the rules say nothing about one of the Phoenixs being a wolf and one of them not being a wolf.

Where do you get the 50/50 from?

[Lathum]

Pass, can you clarify please?

[Lathum]

dola- will be out for a while but am open to changing my vote if need be

[Abe Sargent]

I thought it was 50/50 like everything else. Hold on.

[Passacaglia]

Pass, can you clarify please?

Phoenixes are chosen randomly, regardless of allegiance. I'll admit that I probably would have done a reroll if both Phoenixes were wolves, but other than that, I didn't care. The only roles with one good and one evil are Historian, Hoplite, and Marathon Runner.

[Abe Sargent]

From the rules:

Phoenix – Each city will have a Phoenix, who will return to their original city if they are killed while in Hades. When they are killed in Athens or Sparta, they will be revealed as a Phoenix, but their allegiance will not be revealed.


You are right. Awesome! I thought it was like everything else but it does not appear to be so! Excellent! That makes my RR pretty good.

[Abe Sargent]

Damnit Pass, you had to go and ruin my happy times!

Well, then consider my RR to whatever degree you do or do not.

[Abe Sargent]

That's ok Pass, I loves you anyway

[Passacaglia]

Damnit Pass, you had to go and ruin my happy times!

Well, then consider my RR to whatever degree you do or do not.

Heh, I thought I was helping! But I've been having trouble following arguments all over the place in this game.

[Abe Sargent]

So in other words, it appears a phoenix has the same chance to be a wolf that everyone else does, but killing me gives you no info at all to use tomorrow. There we go. Less than the 50/50 I thought it was gives me some ray of hope!

[Lathum]

hmmm, something doesn't sit right with me that Abe missed something like that about his alleged role.

[USFLTecmo]

hmmm, something doesn't sit right with me that Abe missed something like that about his alleged role.

Agreed. Not likely moving now.

[Chief Rum]

Pass has already clarified this. It was all among the questions I asked on Day One.

1. The Phoenix can be a wolf (straight from the rules). But the two Phoenix roles are not by definition opposite (as are MRs, Hops, and the Hists).
2. There is no role allegiance connection in the villages (nothing like bad MR==good Phoenix), so there being a bad MR to start has nothing to do with whether Abe is bad or good.

All that said, I lean toward good on Abe. He keeps making questionable reads on the rules (which I find irritating, I'll admit), but other than that, he comes off fine to me. I still don't feel much better about hoops, but that also is just a vibe thing.

But I want to touch on something hoops said that I think we should consider... (next post).

[Chief Rum]

hoops pointed out that some pretty good "rep" players were still around in Lathum, Abe, himself and myself, while Schmidty got the ticket down. he pointed out that in a small game, why would the wolves mess around? They would go after the vets.

So it's a curious move, going for Schmidty first, a good vet player, but one who openly admitted he migth not be around because of the new job, sometimes isn't around anyway, and has a rep for getting into it with people and drawing votes. Even more curious--TheNorm wasn't sent down either, and he's a possible Ephor.

So why Schmidty? Did he say something that would tip off to a role? I did not see anything, but I know that's not my strength. Did any of you see anything? Schmidty didn't really say much. He was also one of our secret voters for Ephor.

Why not Lathum? Veteran player, potential Ephor, didn't get a run of votes on him like normal.
Abe it's clear why not--he was getting votes, why vote off a potential candidate?
Why not me? Aside from rep, I was the one driving conversation as well.
And then there's hoops, which all the danger he represents.

We can't ALL be wolves. Even if one of us is (and I am currently on one of us), others will remain dangerous villagers to vote off. And, yet, it was Schmidty who was voted off.

Does anyone think the wolves wanted to start Hades off with all villagers? I know I wouldn't as a wolf.

No, I am pretty sure that Schmidty is a wolf sent down to start getting Hades set, and that is why he was sent down, above other more obvious choices. And he's not the MR, because he would have gone to Sparta (and we know he did not). So the other wolf we had is probably the evil MR.

[Chief Rum]

BTW, my gut says that if we had a wolf Ephor candidate, that the wolf is the Ephor now, given Schmidty's silent vote, and the likelihood at least three villagers will have voted for the Ephor, with another wolf voting for the wolf Ephor privately, no matter what he said he would do publically.

But I don't think we had a wolf Ephor candidate, if my guess on Schmidty is right (and it's one of the few guesses that makes logical sense). Here's why:

Lathum, I just get a good vibe on. He's said the right things at the right times, not shady. I think he's good. That leaves only TheNorm as a potential Ephor candidate. But if you had two wolves, and they were Schmidty and TheNorm, would you send Schmidty down or TheNorm? I would guess TheNorm--it would not be suspicious, as TheNorm is a potential Ephor, and TheNorm still has his Ephor abilities if it's voted to him, useable Hades.

(Actually, Pass, clarify, please, if the Ephor keeps his abilities even if voted/lynched out of the city that voted him the role, and whether that ability translates only to Athens, or if it then becomes an Ephor role for Hades).

Point is, I don't think the wolves would send down Schmidty, who knows the players, over TheNorm, who's lynch would not raise eyebrows. So I don't think TheNorm is the other wolf.

In my mind, TheNorm, Lathum, PurdueBrad and myself are villagers, and I lean strongly to Abe being a villager as well. And I think the ratio is 7-1 right now villagers to wolves, but it's quite possible we have the EHist here as well.

Possible wolves: hoops (my vote), MartinD, USFLTecmo

And that wolf is the evil MR and will go to Sparta when lynched.

[Passacaglia]

(Actually, Pass, clarify, please, if the Ephor keeps his abilities even if voted/lynched out of the city that voted him the role, and whether that ability translates only to Athens, or if it then becomes an Ephor role for Hades).


The Ephor keeps his power (if he hasn't used it yet) in Hades, but not if he's a Marathon Runner and runs to the other city.

[hoopsguy]

On for a minute, likely my last post before deadline. Since no one is countering Abe's Phoenix role I'm more than willing to accept it as legit, but that doesn't give us any info on faction. He is not a known good.

Frankly, the only roles that Abe could claim - given the current vote count - that would move me are the seer and bodyguard roles. I guess I still feel like the risk/reward on those is high enough for me to sacrifice and head to Hades. But Phoenix, when it could just as easily be wolf as villager? Nope.

Anyway, I'll come back again if I get another break. But my vote sticks for now.

[Abe Sargent]

I like to think that I've kept alevel head throughout my WW career, and I just just log on for a second, and I have rarely gone off, and I take great pride in that. But, for just a second, I am getting really pissed off that for like 18 games in a row I' am getting fucking heat because I HAVE NOT READ THE FUCKING RULES SO FUCKING THOROUGHLY TO YOUR FUCKING HIGH AND MIGHTY SELVES SO I MUST FUCKING BE A WOLF.

Damn that's fucking annoying. I've never been as annoyed at Blade or AlanT.

Now, that felt good to get out. Of course I'm a villager, and of course you woun''t buy it because some of you act like rules elistists on an unusual set where where oh nows, I misread teh rules (yet again) so i must be a wolf.

Back to normal now. I'm calm, but I really had to let that out. Sheesh you can;t imagine how annoying it is.

[hoopsguy]

For what it is worth, I think wolves read rules more closely than villagers.

Abe, are you willing to take a shot somewhere else with this vote? I'm not of the opinion that you are a wolf and I would rather vote for someone that I think is in fact a wolf.

I would prefer to stay on the group that I listed earlier - USFL, MartinD, or Chief Rum. Or PurdueBrad, as I do not completely buy the argument that he must be the good Marathon Runner. Those would be folks that I would consider making a move because I think they are more likely than you to be a wolf at this point.

[Passacaglia]

This look right to people?


MartinD -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 5 Lathum (276) MartinD (277) PurdueBrad (283) hoopsguy (292) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 2 Chief Rum (278) Abe Sargent (288)

[Abe Sargent]

Unvote hoopsguy
Vote USFL


Just in case it matters.

I'm off to go shopping for supplies with my staff. I will not be back until much later.

[Abe Sargent]

Good luck village!

[Lathum]

I meant no offense or disrespect meant Abe. I consider you one of the more through players in the game, that's why I was surprised.

[Lathum]

Unvote Abe
Vote Hoopsguy

Me and CR have been pretty much on the same page all game.

The thing that struck me with hoops is I just went back and reread the thread right after PB came in. Hoops was pretty curious about what was happening in Sparta.

If Hoops is a wolf he knows PB isn't. I think Hoops may have been trying to get a feel for how the other city is shaping up in regards to who they think is a wolf, etc...

[hoopsguy]

Sigh - if I were a wolf, I would know exactly what is going on in the other city because I could chat with other wolves about it rather than having to do it in the thread.

Your vote change makes it 4-3-1, which means that I'm going to have to sit tight on Abe.

Think about it - why would I offer to change off of Abe when it is a 5-2 margin with him vs me?

Between you and Chief, you are both suggesting really dumb wolf play on my part at just about every turn. If I'm a wolf, particularly on a day where I have extremely limited access, I'm hunkering down here and letting Abe get lynched.

But I'm not a wolf and I do not think that Abe is one either. Lathum, I think that you are on the wrong team here because CR seems to be lining up with you in the thread. I'm much more suspicious of him as a wolf than I am of Abe. I just can't do a thing about it without others switching votes because I'm on the block.

[Lathum]

Sigh - if I were a wolf, I would know exactly what is going on in the other city because I could chat with other wolves about it rather than having to do it in the thread.

.

while that is a valid point it doesn't mean it isn't a good opporitunity to get a villages perspective.

but it does make sense

[Lathum]

Hoops, who would you switch to?

[Lathum]

Abe, I see you in thread, why the switch to USFL?

[hoopsguy]

Pure risk management? PurdueBrad for the 50/50 shot. I can think of a few reasons that the Marathoner would not want to come out against him and get shipped to Sparta. For starters, he would likely face intense scrutinty there - much more than PB has faced here.

Pure gut? Chief Rum, who seems to have moved from chatty villager on D1 to villager with an agenda on D2. Since that agenda involves going after a villager (me) I'm pretty suspicious of it. Also, he has led the charge for clearing PB in this thread. I think that has as much value in testing as any Abe/TheNorm relationship.

[Chief Rum]

I like to think that I've kept alevel head throughout my WW career, and I just just log on for a second, and I have rarely gone off, and I take great pride in that. But, for just a second, I am getting really pissed off that for like 18 games in a row I' am getting fucking heat because I HAVE NOT READ THE FUCKING RULES SO FUCKING THOROUGHLY TO YOUR FUCKING HIGH AND MIGHTY SELVES SO I MUST FUCKING BE A WOLF.

Damn that's fucking annoying. I've never been as annoyed at Blade or AlanT.

Now, that felt good to get out. Of course I'm a villager, and of course you woun''t buy it because some of you act like rules elistists on an unusual set where where oh nows, I misread teh rules (yet again) so i must be a wolf.

Back to normal now. I'm calm, but I really had to let that out. Sheesh you can;t imagine how annoying it is.

I'm leaning toward quitting. Gonna think about it. See ya.

[Lathum]

Pure risk management? PurdueBrad for the 50/50 shot. I can think of a few reasons that the Marathoner would not want to come out against him and get shipped to Sparta. For starters, he would likely face intense scrutinty there - much more than PB has faced here.



I find it hard to believe you think voting out PB is a good move considering no one has come out against him.

I see zero reason the marathon runner in our city wouldn't come out if he was a villager

[PurdueBrad]

I like to think that I've kept alevel head throughout my WW career, and I just just log on for a second, and I have rarely gone off, and I take great pride in that. But, for just a second, I am getting really pissed off that for like 18 games in a row I' am getting fucking heat because I HAVE NOT READ THE FUCKING RULES SO FUCKING THOROUGHLY TO YOUR FUCKING HIGH AND MIGHTY SELVES SO I MUST FUCKING BE A WOLF.

Damn that's fucking annoying. I've never been as annoyed at Blade or AlanT.

Now, that felt good to get out. Of course I'm a villager, and of course you woun''t buy it because some of you act like rules elistists on an unusual set where where oh nows, I misread teh rules (yet again) so i must be a wolf.

Back to normal now. I'm calm, but I really had to let that out. Sheesh you can;t imagine how annoying it is.

Abe, I feel you from what happened to me in Sparta and this is not so much of a I don't think Abe is a wolf move as I don't like doing to Abe basically what I felt was done to me.

unvote Abe.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I recognize that those are not the answers that you want to hear, Lathum, since you distrust me + Abe more than you do Chief (and, by proxy, PB) based on your posts in the thread.

The PB = trusted is the other "groupthink" idea that I alluded to yesterday. I do not trust the logic in that has been used to put him in the cleared category. I think there are quite a few reasons that the Marathoner might want to sit tight and hope that we get the vote right. But I'm puzzled by the fact that no one is voting for PB; I would have expected at least one person to put some real pressure on him in the thread if they knew he was a wolf.

[Lathum]

Unvote Hoops


sigh, I am at a loss

[PurdueBrad]

I don't want to make a tie and lose two (that's what happens in a tie if you guys didn't ask) so I'll go to option three:

vote USFL Tecmo

[Lathum]

Also, I recognize that those are not the answers that you want to hear, Lathum, since you distrust me + Abe more than you do Chief (and, by proxy, PB) based on your posts in the thread.

The PB = trusted is the other "groupthink" idea that I alluded to yesterday. I do not trust the logic in that has been used to put him in the cleared category. I think there are quite a few reasons that the Marathoner might want to sit tight and hope that we get the vote right. But I'm puzzled by the fact that no one is voting for PB; I would have expected at least one person to put some real pressure on him in the thread if they knew he was a wolf.

What could the marathon runner possibly have to gain by sitting and waiting?

If we could get a wolf today plus clear a villager in the process how is that not by FAR the logical play?

[PurdueBrad]

There is no value in the marathon runner waiting. I actually would've liked to see them come out just because Sparta is ready for them and then he would be drilled immediately in Hades for being a wolf. I didn't want to lay this out until it really didn't look like he would reveal, but my thoughts are that is why he hasn't revealed.

[PurdueBrad]

Let me rephrase the first sentence, there is huge value for a wolf to wait, no value if the runner is a villager.

[hoopsguy]

I find it hard to believe you think voting out PB is a good move considering no one has come out against him.

I see zero reason the marathon runner in our city wouldn't come out if he was a villager

If PB is a villager, why wouldn't the wolf come out against him? Wouldn't that be easier than sitting back and watching us put PB in as a cleared villager in a small game (9 players), on top of having to worry about traditional villager roles like seer, bodyguard, and duke that are still out thre?

I think that the argument was originally cast in a manner that was pro-PB and that people have followed it without considering the flip side of the argument. I think they would be more than willing to trade 1:1 in this village, knowing that they escape to the other villager if they are lynched before ever going to Hades.

[PurdueBrad]

I explain why in the above post. The guy gets drilled in Sparta and then is f'ed in Hades. It's a quick way for a wolf to lose as the runner.

[PurdueBrad]

This is not like Hoops to not look at both sides IMHO. Usually he walks both lines well, now he's arguing with tunnel vision like I usually do.

[Lathum]

If PB is a villager, why wouldn't the wolf come out against him? Wouldn't that be easier than sitting back and watching us put PB in as a cleared villager in a small game (9 players), on top of having to worry about traditional villager roles like seer, bodyguard, and duke that are still out thre?

I think that the argument was originally cast in a manner that was pro-PB and that people have followed it without considering the flip side of the argument. I think they would be more than willing to trade 1:1 in this village, knowing that they escape to the other villager if they are lynched before ever going to Hades.

you really are losing me here.

If the wolves come out against PB they are basically guarenteeing they get killed the next night.

As a wolf I would rather have a trusted villager running around then do a 1-1 trade.

[Lathum]

anyone have a vote count?

[PurdueBrad]

I'm not voting your way but it seems like an odd play for you Hoops. You are usually good at working both sides of an argument. No reveal ALMOST guarantees I'm good. A wolf reveal screws that wolf because Sparta will drill him after you do and then Hades will do the same.

[Alan T]

Damn that's fucking annoying. I've never been as annoyed at Blade or AlanT.



Good to see I'm still getting love :)

[PurdueBrad]

Abe, in case Hoops gets his way and I go in ten minutes, sorry for my part in irritating you.

[Lathum]

Abe, in case Hoops gets his way and I go in ten minutes, sorry for my part in irritating you.

I actualy was being complementry in an odd way.

I have asked way more questions the Abe

[Lathum]

Abe Sargent -- 3 MartinD (277) hoopsguy (292) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 2 Chief Rum (278)
USFL- 2 Abe (319), PB(333)

[Lathum]

Fixed

Abe Sargent -- 3 MartinD (277) hoopsguy (292) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 1 Chief Rum (278)
USFL- 2 Abe (319), PB(333)

[Lathum]

am I the only non voter?

[PurdueBrad]

Look, you guys dealt with me venting some (wife heard a lot worse) about yesterday in Sparta so I get Abe here. I don't think a wolf goes off like this and if he fakes it, good for him but it screws him forever beyond this one game I would think. It is kind of a complement but at the same time, when nobody freakin' listens, it sucks more than I can explain (as you all know from various games I'm sure).

[Lathum]

norm, have you voted yet?

[TheNorm]

Nope.

[PurdueBrad]

WORRIED ABOUT A TIE HERE

[Lathum]

I am willing to vote USFL but we cant have a tie.

Norm, will you vote usfl also?

[Lathum]

VOTE USFL

[Lathum]

up to you Norm

[USFLTecmo]

I haven't seen a reason to vote for me yet, besides the fact I'm in the game, and not an Ephor candidate.

[TheNorm]

Sheesh this is a pain in the ass--thanks for putting the noob in such a position to decide. ;)

vote Abe

[hoopsguy]

Well, should be interesting to see where TheNorm goes with his vote.

I'll continue this argument on the Marathoner after the deadline if I'm still around to do so. But I think the dominant opinion in the thread is off-base. I sincerely hope that ends up correct, with PB being a good guy, but the conclusions drawn on "no showdown" are faulty, in my mind.

[TheNorm]

unvote Abe

vote USFL

[hoopsguy]

UNVOTE ABE
VOTE USFL

[USFLTecmo]

Sonofa...

If I'm gone, wolves, Lathum's the Ephor. That's all I could get for ya, and I wish I could have done more.

[hoopsguy]

Not sure if that will be honored or not, but if so I'll try to keep my promise to Abe about looking at other candidates.

[Lathum]

Sonofa...

If I'm gone, wolves, Lathum's the Ephor. That's all I could get for ya, and I wish I could have done more.

interesting

[Lathum]

well obviously USFL is the bad historian because I am the Ephor.

No reason to not reveal this now since the wolves probably already know it.

[Lathum]

dola- Why the shout out though if they already know?

[Lathum]

double dola- I just read the evil historian actually isn't a wolf, hence his shout out.

Even so, with the 24 hour deadline unless I was already the night kill I should be good today unless PAss accepts late actions, which would irritate me.

[Lathum]

dola- I am curious how the historian role works, obviously he was told I am the Ephor.

But would he also be told my alligience, I am assuming he would be, otherwise an unwise move to shout out like that.

MAybe Pass can clarify?

[Lathum]

whatever number dola- I think Norm needs to be looked at tomorrow, it could be a potential link between him and Abe

[hoopsguy]

Looks like we got a better lynch today than we did yesterday.

[Lathum]

it appears so.

I am out for a while, hopefully I will be returning to this thread.

FWIW there wasn't going to be a tie either way, I had a conditional duke order in just in case.

[TheNorm]

whatever number dola- I think Norm needs to be looked at tomorrow, it could be a potential link between him and Abe

roffle.
I was going to stick with my Day 1 vote (as good a theory as any when nothing seems too clear) but in the time that I wrote that up about three messages popped up asking if I'd vote for USFL instead (which IIRC you were leading the last minute charge on that). That's all it is.

[Passacaglia]

Vote count, speak up if issues:


MartinD -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 2 MartinD (277) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 1 Chief Rum (278)
USFLTecmo -- 5 Abe Sargent (319) PurdueBrad (333) Lathum (354) TheNorm (359) hoopsguy (360)

[PurdueBrad]

Just re-read the rules and assumed that evil=wolf, I was wrong there. So we still likely have two wolves among us of the 7 of us. That could be 6 with a night kill but maybe those of you that have said Schmidty could've been a wolf are right, meaning we would be 5-1 instead of the likely 4-2.

[Passacaglia]

After very much bickering, the villagers out of nowhere decide on USFLTecmo as their lynch victim. USFLTecmo was the evil historian! You go to sleep feeling pretty please with yourselves for getting rid of one who would help the wolves, but when you wake up, you find that Chief Rum is missing. Chief Rum was a villager!

[PurdueBrad]

Nice lynch, although I'm worried about the number of actual wolves now. The other interesting thing here is that the wolves wouldn't have known Tecmo's identity, so voting data will be interesting but maybe not greatly useful (unless I'm missing an angle that works).

[Abe Sargent]

Well, I assume I get some trust now? :)

Thanks for not lynchign me by the by

[Abe Sargent]

Wait a second,. i went and reread the rules (yeah, hahaha), and it doesn;t look like the wolves knew who teh evil historian. Man. Now I'm not even cleared!

[Abe Sargent]

;)

[Abe Sargent]

Pass - Schmidty is still listed in the Athens list.

Do the wolves know who the evil historian was? I hope so, but I doubt it after reading the rulez.

[hoopsguy]

Trust lists, excluding self:
1.) Lathum - barring a reverse-psychology trick by Evil Historian on way out the door he is good and he is duke. Good spot for us in a six person game
2.) PurdueBrad - distant second, but I'll concede that he is better than 50/50 good because of potential marathon scenarios (discussed in upcoming post)
3.) TheNorm - alternate Ephor candidate, was not able to get elected by wolves (again, assumes no double-move by our Evil Historian)
4.) AbeSargent - this is where list starts to tilt downward a little bit. My gut has said villager with him, but I'm running out of candidates
5.) MartinD - along with TheNorm, an UTR candidate but without benefit of having "lost" Ephor race.


The other layer on top of this analysis is the Night 1 Schmidty kill. I do not think that Lathum would have gone off the map with that kill. PB wasn't here, so he doesn't apply. Abe? Probably not - I know he thinks very highly of Chief Rum as a villager so I think he would have gone there unless there was some kind of compelling reason to look at Schmidty.

So that leaves TheNorm and MartinD as the guys who I think might have put in that order. I think it is wishful thinking to suggest that both of them are wolves, but one of them along with either Schmidty or Chief Rum (latter more likely) seems possible.

[Lathum]

roffle.
I was going to stick with my Day 1 vote (as good a theory as any when nothing seems too clear) but in the time that I wrote that up about three messages popped up asking if I'd vote for USFL instead (which IIRC you were leading the last minute charge on that). That's all it is.

I'm not sure what you find funny and this statement is a little confusing.

Day 1 Abe was pushing for you to be Ephor. We now know I am the Ephor so I think by lynching you we can learn something.

I don't understand your reference to your voting of USFL, can you elaborate please.

[hoopsguy]

OK, time to run through my "Marathon" scenarios. I started this exercise yesterday when I though that Chief Rum seemed to be putting out some kind of suspect logic to force a 1:1 on PurdueBrad rather than us taking the 50/50 shot. It certainly felt like "wolf shielding wolf" to me when I read his arguments.

OK, lets say that I'm the good marathoner - I'm not, btw - then here is what I know:
1.) PurdueBrad is a bad guy
2.) When I come forward there is a 50/50 shot that I'm going to be voted off instead of him
3.) If I'm voted off, then I'm likely going to be immediately booted from Sparta, which isn't going to help them with catching wolves either. So both villages would have wasted one day lynching me instead of getting a wolf. Bad for not one, but two, cities.

So, does the Marathon runner feel good about winning a showdown with PB? I guess it depends on when he checked in, as Chief started building a case for PB pretty quickly and Lathum backed it up soon after. At that point, maybe he doesn't like his chances to win the day.

That was how I thought yesterday when I put on my "marathon" cap. I did not trust Rum and, by proxy, did not trust PurdueBrad.


Anyway, all of that logic doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot now because the Marathon runner turtled up. No counter-reveal, no showdown, no one that made it a crusade to get PB voted out today.

So, why would that happen?
1.) Schmidty was the Marathon Runner and was not here to challenge him in the thread because he had already been sent down to try and win Hades.
2.) PurdueBrad actually is the good Marathon runner.
3.) The good Marathon runner is playing a very tentative game, neither following suggested logic in the thread nor confronting PB directly.

If the good marathon runner believed that we started with two wolves, then today's vote was do-or-die for him. The ratio would have been 5-3 and, assuming a wolf kill, we lose the town with a 3-3 ratio. Hard to believe, with this info, that #3 above is viable.

So I'm of the assumption that #2 is true, and it is possible that one of our "night kills" was the Athens marathon runner. Either way, I'm now trusting PB a lot more than I was a couple of hours ago.

[hoopsguy]

Roles:
Hoops - vanilla villager
Lathum - Ephor, presumed nothing else?
PB - Marathon Runner
Abe - Phoenix
TheNorm - ???
MartinD - ???

So is today the day that we leave our cards on the table? It is if you believe that there are two wolves remaining in the city. If you think there is only one then we can play this a little bit more slowly.

My gut is to work with the idea that there are two wolves out there, personally. I would rather we make the most informed vote possible, with the Duke getting last option.

Oh, and if there are two wolves and a duke in charge then we are in a crappy position. Crappy enough that I'm resigned to going to Hades.

[MartinD]

5.) MartinD - along with TheNorm, an UTR candidate but without benefit of having "lost" Ephor race.

Signs that I'm developing as a WW player #1: Get through a game without being described as 'UTR' ;) :lol:

[TheNorm]

I'm not sure what you find funny and this statement is a little confusing.

Day 1 Abe was pushing for you to be Ephor. We now know I am the Ephor so I think by lynching you we can learn something.

I don't understand your reference to your voting of USFL, can you elaborate please.

I find it funny that I'm under suspicion from you, is all. Posts 352-356 all happened while I was typing out my initial vote in post 357. Since a tie would just result in the village losing two people, I switched my vote to USFL as everyone was following your lead.

If you find something wrong with that, have a go then.

[Passacaglia]

Pass - Schmidty is still listed in the Athens list.

Do the wolves know who the evil historian was? I hope so, but I doubt it after reading the rulez.

Thanks, and no.

[hoopsguy]

Heh - I think it is as much temperament as experience, MartinD. Some guys like to talk a lot. Others don't push the conversation in the threads as much. For me, I need to have enough posts on a person to be able to develop an opinion. That can either be via volume or clearly defined stances.

I don't know what to think of you in this game, which means that I've got you as UTR for now. But that is certainly subject to change.

[Abe Sargent]

Signs that I'm developing as a WW player #1: Get through a game without being described as 'UTR' ;) :lol:

Heh. I got accused of that last game once. Imagine, me!

[PurdueBrad]

Alright, I'm kind of torn. I'm following Hoops' logic but his flip-flop on me feels like one of those things to win me to his side. You know, he attacks but then relents and I'm relieved that he did so and he gets trust from me for that.

Whether Hoops is good or he's a wolf, there is always at least some truth in his logic. I would agree that Norm or Martin D are the places to look. Even if Hoops is a wolf, it wouldn't surprise me to see him present one as an option. So let's look at those two.

[Lathum]

I find it funny that I'm under suspicion from you, is all. Posts 352-356 all happened while I was typing out my initial vote in post 357. Since a tie would just result in the village losing two people, I switched my vote to USFL as everyone was following your lead.

If you find something wrong with that, have a go then.

my suspicion of you really has nothing to do with how the vote went other then the fact you waited to vote.

Did you vote that way to save Abe?
Was Abe pushing you because you are both wolves?

These are questions that can be answered by lynching you.

[hoopsguy]

PB, call it what you will. I just didn't trust you as much as the rest of the crowd. But I'm at a point where I don't understand the play of a good marathoner against you as an evil one. So rather than keep making up reasons for you to be a wolf I'm now looking at more likely options.

Getting down to the end of the game, every player has a set of assumptions. Right now mine start with Lathum and you, partly out of necessity (if you two aren't good, this is going to be very hard to win) and partly out of conviction.

[hoopsguy]

Dola - "if either of you two (PB or Lathum) aren't good, this is going to be very hard to win". Minor correction from last post.

[PurdueBrad]

Hoops, let me be clear, I wasn't casting suspicion. This is one of those posts where, if this is another game where you drill me as a wolf, I can feel better when I look back at that post. It'll save my self-esteem later.

[PurdueBrad]

If you take Lathum and I out of the equation, that leaves four which is really a 50/50 shot for tomorrow. That's not a bad feeling, honestly.

[TheNorm]

my suspicion of you really has nothing to do with how the vote went other then the fact you waited to vote.

Did you vote that way to save Abe?
Was Abe pushing you because you are both wolves?

These are questions that can be answered by lynching you.

I voted that way because I'm new here and don't have a read on anybody yet; chances are if I'd have voted earlier you'd find something wrong with that too. Plus there is also this:

I am willing to vote USFL but we cant have a tie.

Norm, will you vote usfl also?

and

up to you Norm

I went that route since you asked oh so nicely. All I'm guilty of is being a sheep. But since it seems you've got your little heart set on it Encyclopedia Brown, just go right ahead and cast that vote for the new guy. :thumbsup:

[Abe Sargent]

Ah man, he referenced Encyclopedia Brown!

[Lathum]

I asked those questions because I didn't want a tie and have to use my ability

[Lathum]

dola- Norm, you are getting pretty agitated and playing the new card when really it's already day 3.

I just wonder if that's a wolf defense or your playing style?

I mentioned earlier it isn't just your vote today, it's the overall sum of the game. Whether he meant to or not, Abe put extra heat on you by bringing you up day 1.

[hoopsguy]

TheNorm - it is probably about time to start working on having some reads on people. Because if you are truly waiting for other people to provide them for you then you are either susceptible to wolf BS or a wolf yourself hoping not to attract attention. Neither one is particularly good.

Based on your earlier comments, you have a couple of games under your belt. You should expect the scrutiny to ratchet up a bit as we get into the tougher votes. Most of the long-time players here handle the new guys with kid gloves early (in terms of early votes) but that just cannot happen late in a game.

Encyclopedia Brown :) - Lathum may hear about that one for a couple of games ...

[Encyclopedia Brown]

VOTE THENORM

[Abe Sargent]

dubb is here

[Lathum]

hi dubb!!

[Lathum]

dola-

the encyclopedia brown joke was all me, didn't want anyone to think it is dubb

[Abe Sargent]

Dubb is still here after like 5 minutes

[Abe Sargent]

Wasn't he assigned to Sparta?

[Lathum]

he's gone now. I know alot of times I navigate to a page, then tab over to check email or something.

I'm sure it was an honest mistake.

[Passacaglia]

His last action was at 7:29, and the next time I looked, his last action changed to vieiwing the Athens thread. Since he wasn't actively clicking through the thread, I'm going to guess it was a simple mistake.

[Abe Sargent]

HAHA dubb we FOUND YOU OUT and stuff

[Abe Sargent]

My way of fixing this is to have this page up on atab at all times and then I just need to hit refresh instead of going around and accidentally going to other threads. Again.

[Lathum]

My way of fixing this is to have this page up on atab at all times and then I just need to hit refresh instead of going around and accidentally going to other threads. Again.

I usualy have this page up but navigate to OT to answer questions about jerseys and stuff

[Abe Sargent]

Man who asked quesitons about jerseys on a sports board?

[hoopsguy]

VOTE THENORM

Don't like being compared to Lathum, eh? No one can blame you :)

[Lathum]

So am I the only one who thinks we need to figure out the connection, if there is one, between Norm and Abe?

[Lathum]

so EF was voted out of Hades, I guess people didn't buy the Schmidty is a wolf theory.

Or maybe he was the night kill.

[hoopsguy]

So am I the only one who thinks we need to figure out the connection, if there is one, between Norm and Abe?

At this point I think that we probably get at least one wolf out of that pairing. But I would say that for any group of Abe, MartinD, and TheNorm.

Are you attacking it from the idea that one is a wolf and one is not? If they are both wolves, or both villagers, then it really does not make a difference which way we "figure out the connection", as far as I can tell.

Well, minor curiosity if they are both wolves in trying to figure out roles. But at this point I would settle for a wolf lynch of any sort.

[TheNorm]

dola- Norm, you are getting pretty agitated and playing the new card when really it's already day 3.

I just wonder if that's a wolf defense or your playing style?

I mentioned earlier it isn't just your vote today, it's the overall sum of the game. Whether he meant to or not, Abe put extra heat on you by bringing you up day 1.

Agitated? Hardly, that's why I put the :thumbsup: there. Sorry if you interpreted it as such...and not new to this game, but new to the board and all the new personalities. If I can I usually wait to vote because I like reading all the posts for a clue that could tip me one way or the other...or to be swayed as well. If I think something jumps out at me that hasn't been covered yet, I'll mention it.

Now if that makes me guilty in your eyes, go right ahead. I'm innocent though, and in the worst case scenario a vote for me here plus the night action has us in Hades by the morning.

[Lathum]

well there are a few things I am considering.

I think we probably only have 2 wolves since we know we had the evil historian and probably have the evil marathoner. That means our Hoplite is likely good since having the wolf hoplite, wolf marathoner and evil historian seems pretty out of whack.

here are our remaining players

Abe Sargent- Phoenix
Lathum- Villager- Ephor
hoopsguy
MartinD
TheNorm
PurdueBrad- Marathoner- probably good

So logicaly, 2 of MartinD, TheNorm and Hoops have a role, the Marathoner and the hoplite. One is roleless.

Whoever of the 3 is the marathoner is probably evil and the hoplite is probably good. That means, as long as Schmidty isn't a wolf, that one of the other 2 is a wolf.

Now I am not advocating this, but it seems to me if the hoplite reveals, we have a 66% chance of nabbing a wolf.

Thoughts?

[hoopsguy]

Lathum, I was asking the same question earlier when I asked about "cards on the table" a couple of hours ago.

So is today the day that we leave our cards on the table? It is if you believe that there are two wolves remaining in the city. If you think there is only one then we can play this a little bit more slowly.

If we are playing against two wolves then we probably should start talking reveals. If we feel like we are playing against one wolf then maybe this could wait another day. But not any longer than that.

[Lathum]

yeah, I knew what you meant..

I'd like to get others opinions even though I have nothing to reveal.

[Lathum]

Abe, I see you lurking, what do you think?

[Lathum]

Day 1 votes

Abe Sargent -- 2 EagleFan (152) TheNorm (155)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)


Day 2 Votes


Abe Sargent -- 2 MartinD (277) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 1 Chief Rum (278)
USFLTecmo -- 5 Abe Sargent (319) PurdueBrad (333) Lathum (354) TheNorm (359) Hoops (360)

Looking at non cleared players vote

hoops- voted villagers both days
Martin- Voted 1 wolf and 1 unknown
Abe- voted villagers both days
Norm- voted 1 wolf and 1 unknown

Of this group Hoops and Abe both voted the same person both days, I find it very unlikely 2 wolves do this.

TheNorm and Martin have gone different ways each day, very likely a wolf play.

I think one of them is the way to go today

[Lathum]

btw I noticed Saldana is in Hades

[Lathum]

I wanna click in Sparta's thread just so I have something new to read.

[Lathum]

We're gonna be behind the Hades thread soon.

[Lathum]

Pass, who do you think are the wolves?

[TheNorm]

I feel like Inigo Montoya at this stage of the game right now...'I swear on the soul of my father Domingo Montoya, you will reach the top alive.'

Did that work? :D

Like I already said, if you think it's me then there's really not much else to say other than I'm just a villager. Whether any of you believe me is totally your call, and since I'm always skeptical of any proclamation made in this game I expect the same.

I can't check in much tomorrow, but I should be around sporadically throughout the day and definitely at deadline. Good night for now.

[Lathum]

So Norm is claiming villager.

That means Hoops and MartinD couldn't be villagers. One has to be marathon runner and one has to be hoplite.

[Lathum]

dola- also going on my theory that our hoplite is good and runner bad, that means Norm or Abe HAS to be bad unless Schmidty was.

Since Abe is the phoenix I am leaning more towards Norm being bad.

[Lathum]

Vote TheNorm

[Abe Sargent]

Abe, I see you lurking, what do you think?

Sorry, I came in and out. I'm back now! I agree about cards on the table time, but I don; thave any left.

[Lathum]

Well now that Norm revealed as a villager as long as it isn't countered we can assume Hoops or Martin is a wolf.

My guess is Martin, not sure Hoops would call out PB the way he did if he was the bad marathoner

[Lathum]

dola- combine that with the way Martin and Norm have kept clear of each other I think it very possible they are the wolves

[Lathum]

I realize I may be guilty of throwing stuff against a wall to see what sticks, but really I have just been thinking out loud alot.

[MartinD]

I realize I may be guilty of throwing stuff against a wall to see what sticks, but really I have just been thinking out loud alot.

I don't have a problem with that - is useful for me to see how other people think in this game.

My current thinking:

First up, we don't know how many wolves we have. We know that there aren't 3 wolves in Athens, because the city is still standing (6 players, 3 wolves means the city has been won by the wolves, and would be destroyed). It's possible (although very unlikely, IMHO) that there are no wolves remaining in Athens - they may have sent their guys to Hades with their first two night kills to try to win the game with Sparta and Hades, and leave us to try to find the non-existent wolf - but that doesn't seem like a particularly good strategy to me. This suggests that we have either one or two wolves - is likely that we started with two, and I think that there's a pretty good chance that Schmitdy is a wolf (although that's far from certain), and a much smaller chance that Chief Rum was a wolf. I'd say that it was more likely that there's one wolf still in Athens, but it wouldn't come as a surprise if there were two.

PurdueBrad - We know that he's a marathoner, and I agree with the reasoning that hoopsguy posted earlier - while it's not absolutely certain that he's on the side of good, it looks extremely unlikely that he's a wolf.

Lathum - I'm definitely inclined to believe that he's the Ephor for Athens (particularly as I voted for him, and my vote was one of the three 'free' votes). It doesn't necessarily follow that he isn't a wolf, or that he doesn't have another role - my understanding of the rules is that the one-off 'duke' ability would be added to whatever role the winner of the vote already had (as you can't exactly allocate a role to someone at the start of the game, then take that role away from them at the end of Day 1...) My impression of his behaviour so far is that he's good - of course, this could just be a very smooth smokescreen from a wolf, but I'm inclined to believe that he's a villager.

Abe Sargent - There are enough things here that sit wrong with me to raise suspicion - putting forward TheNorm for Ephor before we had decided to the '3/3/3' vote, an oversight on the rules for his role (easily done, but a little surprising to me). The claimed 'Phoenix' role is definitely plausible, particularly as no other player has come out to contest this (although there's no way of proving this - as far as I'm aware, only EagleFan from the guys who have been sent to Hades from Athens has been killed off in the netherworld, and he's done for the game) - even if this is a true claim, the random allocation of the Phoenix roles means that this doesn't really provide any information on wolf/villager status. I'm not going to translate some reasonably mild suspicions into 'Abe must be a wolf', but there's enough suspicion there to make me wary (hence my vote yesterday).

hoopsguy - Don't see anything that raises suspicion in what he's posted so far - seems to be following the 'helpful villager' profile right now. Of course, this could be a wolf hiding in plain sight, but I'm more inclined to believe that he's one of the good guys at the moment.

TheNorm - don't have a lot to go on in the way of posts, and this is his first game on this board, so don't have any past experience to work with either (not that this means all that much, given that I've only really seen a couple of games here - am not really familiar with anyone's playing style). If Abe is a wolf (which is still very much an 'if' at this point), this would be the next person I'd be looking at.

MartinD - I know that I'm a non-roled villager, and I also know that the only way that this can be proved for certain is for me to be lynched - anything I say could be interpreted as me being a sneaky lying wolf trying to pass myself off as a harmless villager (which is the whole point of the game!)

(For info - my education and line of work mean that I don't deal in certainties - if you asked me how likely it was that the sun would rise tomorrow, I'd answer that it was virtually certain, but would not say that it was certain or inevitable...)

If I had to cast a vote right now, I'd be voting for Abe again. I am open to persuasion, though, and will be having a good read over what's been posted before making my decision later on today.

[hoopsguy]

OK, I think everyone has had time to chime in on roles if they wanted to claim them today. I've got a role, but it is one that I've been keeping to myself up to this point because:
1.) I haven't done any good with it yet
2.) It is a little weaker than normal
3.) I was hoping someone might cross-claim me when the heat was turned up last night.

I'm the Hoplite. I guarded Chief Rum on Night 1 (and started second-guessing that decision very early in Day 2), but I won't tell who I guarded Night 2 just yet since that person would be a sitting duck tonight. Outside of that, I'll answer any questions about my play that folks care to ask.

[PurdueBrad]

I'm proctoring the ACT today so I (possibly) won't be on until around 12-12:30 central. I'm throwing a vote out there now but it can/will change. I just want to avoid the penalty for no vote at this point.

vote Martin D

[Lathum]

so what do you guys think of both MArtin and theNorm claiming to both be non rolled villagers?

Seems unlikely. I tend to believe hoops and according to my logic Hoops should be good.

I know this sounds insane, but what do you guys think about orchestrating a tie between Norn and Martin to eliminate them both?

[hoopsguy]

Lathum, if there are two wolves it is probably going to be hard to pull off if they are around at deadline.

I'm all for giving it a shot, provided that you have a provisional order in place in the event that it is not a tie at the end. You don't need to express who your duke candidate would be in the thread, but you should definitely have a preference and be ready to take that person out, if needed.

[Abe Sargent]

Yeah, I don;t think that'll work.

[Abe Sargent]

Too many variables and the wolves will definitely not play along.

[Passacaglia]

Fixed vote count from yesterday (I had USFL voting for himself instead of hoopsguy voting for him):


MartinD -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 2 MartinD (277) USFLTecmo (295)
hoopsguy -- 1 Chief Rum (278)
USFLTecmo -- 5 Abe Sargent (319) PurdueBrad (333) Lathum (354) TheNorm (359) hoopsguy (360)

[Passacaglia]

Pass, who do you think are the wolves?

I think the wolves are the bad guys.

[Passacaglia]

Today's vote count:


TheNorm -- 1 Lathum (429)
MartinD -- 1 PurdueBrad (436)

[Alan T]

I think the wolves are the bad guys.


Not in the movie Teen-wolf!

[Passacaglia]

Not in the movie Teen-wolf!

Hmm -- have we had a Teen Wolf themed game here? This gives me ideas..

[Lathum]

Lathum, if there are two wolves it is probably going to be hard to pull off if they are around at deadline.

.

Yeah, I don;t think that'll work.

Too many variables and the wolves will definitely not play along.

fine by me, then they completly out themselves

[Lathum]

hmm, 6 of us left a tie probably would be to hard to pull off.

[Lathum]

Lathum - I'm definitely inclined to believe that he's the Ephor for Athens (particularly as I voted for him, and my vote was one of the three 'free' votes). It doesn't necessarily follow that he isn't a wolf, or that he doesn't have another role - my understanding of the rules is that the one-off 'duke' ability would be added to whatever role the winner of the vote already had (as you can't exactly allocate a role to someone at the start of the game, then take that role away from them at the end of Day 1...) My impression of his behaviour so far is that he's good - of course, this could just be a very smooth smokescreen from a wolf, but I'm inclined to believe that he's a villager.


To answer this, when USFL went out he screamed to the wolves that I am the Ephor.

He obviously scanned me, had I come back wolf he wouldn't have done that.

Unless I am mistaken that's why people have me cleared as much as I can be cleared.

[hoopsguy]

OK, for now I'll try to balance out the votes across the two guys. We haven't heard from either of them about whether they back the plan, but I figure for survival they have to cross-vote each other. That should be important for both sides.

VOTE MARTIND

[Lathum]

Abe Sargent- Phoenix- alligiance unknown

Lathum- Ephor0 villager- good based on USFL's parting words

hoopsguy- Claims Hoplite- according to my logic probably good. I find it hard to believe we had the evil seer, wolf marathoner and wolf hoplite. If we did may as well pack it in before we started.

MartinD- Claims roll less villager

TheNorm- Also claims roll less villager

PurdueBrad- marathon runner- probably good since no one has come out against him.


Now to me Schmidty is the wild card. If the wolves took out one of their own N1 then it is possible both Martin and TheNorm could be telling the truth.

It is possible Abe is a wolf despite being the phoenix.

So with 6 left at worst it is 4-2 with 2 of Abe/ Martin/ Norm being wolves

At best Schmidty was a wolf and it is 5-1 with 1 of Abe/ MArtin/ Norm the last wolf.

Now here is the rub.

If it is 4-2 and we miss tonight barring a BG block we lose the city. A tie would be great because either way if we miss we lose the city, but a 1-1 trade would make it 3-1 going into the night phase and we are guarenteed another day. I just think a tie would be hard to coordinate.

thoughts

[hoopsguy]

hmm, 6 of us left a tie probably would be to hard to pull off.

If it doesn't happen then you duke the person you want to duke. Or save it for tomorrow, if you think that you will be around to use it then. But that is the wildcard in the equation that the wolves cannot control.

Our voting records are minimized in this game already with the potential of wolves sending wolves down to Hades. At this point, I'm fine with us orchestrating something during the day even if it minimizes voting records. We are going to win, or lose, this game based on which side can push the other side into making bad decisions over the next 1-2 days. I think this move puts a lot of pressure on the wolves if there are two of them left and one is in the mix here.

It puts a lot of pressure on you, too. Don't screw up :) Seriously, if you want feedback on the duke vote near the deadline I'm hoping that I'll be around. You can get feedback from whoever you trust (or don't) in the thread and act accordingly.

[Lathum]

I have a conditional order to duke to theNorm if need be.

[Lathum]

dola- and I agree we are very tied up with the potential that the wolves sent down one of their own.

[Lathum]

question for Pass

I know that if the wolves sent down one of their own, in our case CR and Schmidty, they come up villager.

But if they had a role would they come up as just a villager, or villager + their role.

[Passacaglia]

question for Pass

I know that if the wolves sent down one of their own, in our case CR and Schmidty, they come up villager.

But if they had a role would they come up as just a villager, or villager + their role.

All wolves show up as vanilla villager if sent down to Hades.

[Lathum]

question about War

The rules say if one city declares war that city is turned over to the wolves.

But what happens in the other city? How does the war play out? Do we occupy that city? etc...

I am just wondering because if we are at 4-2 and get a bad result tonight we may be done anyway.

[Passacaglia]

question about War

The rules say if one city declares war that city is turned over to the wolves.

But what happens in the other city? How does the war play out? Do we occupy that city? etc...

I am just wondering because if we are at 4-2 and get a bad result tonight we may be done anyway.

Yes, you guys occupy that city, and everyone in here goes over there immediately. In case this happens late in the day, your lynch votes will not change, but of course may be changed to vote for anyone.

[Lathum]

so if we declare war...

we can confirm for them their seer is good.
we can pretty much confirm their hoplite is bad.

[Passacaglia]

Oh, and you'll still be able to view this thread (but not post), but the Spartans will not.

[hoopsguy]

Pass, will we know if/when Sparta has been won by the villagers or wolves? What happens when you win a city? Does the game end or do we get a chance to help liberate the other city or Hades?

[Passacaglia]

Pass, will we know if/when Sparta has been won by the villagers or wolves? What happens when you win a city? Does the game end or do we get a chance to help liberate the other city or Hades?

You will know if Sparta has been won by wolves, but not if it's been won by villagers (the Spartans won't even know if that's happened). When the wolves win a city, it is destroyed and everyone in it goes to Hades, but when the villagers win a city, nothing happens.

[Lathum]

So if nothing happens when villagers win a city what happens to the remaining villagers?

[hoopsguy]

So does the thread just close down when villagers win a city? If we win Athens do we continue posting in the thread? I assume we know when we have gotten rid of the last wolf?

Obviously we do not declare war at that point :)

[hoopsguy]

Let me guess - you weren't planning on the villagers actually winning a city, right? :eek: :p

[Passacaglia]

The villagers stay in the thread, but the thread is not closed down. The problem is that no announcement will be made to let you know the village has won, so you'll have to determine when you've won, and what you plan to do at that point yourselves.

[Lathum]

yeah, very confused right now about that.

If there are no more wolves then no more night kills, no night kills then no more deaths, no deaths no Hades.

[Passacaglia]

Let me guess - you weren't planning on the villagers actually winning a city, right? :eek: :p

Give me some credit -- I'm actually rooting for the villagers this game!


Villagers win a city by removing it of all wolves – there will be no notification when this has happened.

[Passacaglia]

yeah, very confused right now about that.

If there are no more wolves then no more night kills, no night kills then no more deaths, no deaths no Hades.

Right, but if there are no night kills, does that always mean there are no more wolves? And are wolves the only way people die?

[hoopsguy]

I guess we can "lose" if the other two locations fall to the wolves, if that is what you mean.

Technically, we are not going to learn if we win/lose the game until we get to two people left in town and the town isn't destroyed. Or at least that is how I'm reading it based on what you describe above.

[Lathum]

I guess we can "lose" if the other two locations fall to the wolves, if that is what you mean.

Technically, we are not going to learn if we win/lose the game until we get to two people left in town and the town isn't destroyed. Or at least that is how I'm reading it based on what you describe above.

then what happens to the final 2 villagers?

[Lathum]

TheNorm -- 1 Lathum (429)
MartinD -- 2 PurdueBrad (436) Hoops ( 449)


is this correct?

[Passacaglia]

Yes.

[TheNorm]

If you want a tie, then here it is.

vote TheNorm

[TheNorm]

I can't guarantee I'll be back before deadline; if I can I'll check what's going on. I'm still claiming innocence but if this can help the villagers pull out a victory then I'll play along.

[Lathum]

Norm, I think it would be more helpful if you stated your case for innocence.

[MartinD]

While I'm not exactly happy about being part of a plan that involves me getting lynched, I'm willing to participate for the good of the villagers.

VOTE THENORM

[TheNorm]

Sure, but I'm at work and don't really have the time to explain. Anything I could tell you as a non-roled villager isn't likely to help me regardless--you've already got your reversal lined up on me if things switch anyway.

Amazing--I was going to stick with my day one vote on day 2, but since everyone wanted to go after Tecmo I followed suit. I'm innocent but being a sheep is going to get me shipped out. Take it or leave it.

[hoopsguy]

Interesting, where is Abe and is he willing to put the final vote on the guy that he nominated as Ephor back on Day 1?

[MartinD]

TheNorm - I might be missing a trick here, but I don't see why voting for yourself helps us towards a tie. If we try to engineer a tie, all you need to do is change your vote at the last minute to screw things up. If we cross-vote (i.e. you vote for me/I vote for you), that option isn't available, as if one person changes their vote, they're the one who gets lynched.

Anyway, I'm out until after deadline. As I said in my previous post, I am willing to be sacrificed in a tie vote for the good of the villagers.

[hoopsguy]

TheNorm - I'll flip votes with you to address MartinD's very valid concern. I understand the idea of self-voting as a show of support but he is 100% right that you could break it all by yourself.

Of course, this makes Abe's decision a little easier ... oh well, maybe Lathum can address this if/when he gets back.

UNVOTE MARTIND
VOTE THENORM

[Lathum]

so just waiting on Abe to vote

[Abe Sargent]

I hate self voting. It's almost never the right play.

[Abe Sargent]

So it looks 4 TheNorm and 1 MartinD right?

[Abe Sargent]

Does it seem liek martinD and TheNorm are both willing participants too much? Does that throw anyone else off like it does me?

[hoopsguy]

I think that is correct, although we are hoping that we are going to see it end up at 3-3 so that Lathum does not have to use his duke.

If TheNorm really wants this to end 3-3 then he'll change it when he gets back. If it looks like he won't be back (MartinD seems unlikely to be back, based on his posts) then I'll flip back to make it 3-3.

[hoopsguy]

Does it seem liek martinD and TheNorm are both willing participants too much? Does that throw anyone else off like it does me?

I think it means that someone is going to be coming in late and changing.

[Abe Sargent]

Alright

Vote martinD

Let's see what we see

[Lathum]

Hey everyone!

More often than not, I'm available around that timeframe--I'll be at work Tuesday-Friday at those times, but I can get online around that time. :)

FYI--I have played this game before, even if it wasn't here. I'm not exactly new to this, so cut me some slack. :D

I do have to step out for a little while though and I can't guarantee I'll be back by 2pm, so...I don't know. I'm siding with EagleFan here, albeit with reservations. Gut feeling tells me he's a villager here.

vote Abe

Nope.

It does but I see no way one of them isn't a wolf unless Schmidty was the marathoner and Abe is the last wolf.

IMO Me, PB, and Hoops are cleared. Abe is phoenix, that means one of them has to be the marathoner.

Sheesh this is a pain in the ass--thanks for putting the noob in such a position to decide. ;)

vote Abe

unvote Abe

vote USFL

roffle.
I was going to stick with my Day 1 vote (as good a theory as any when nothing seems too clear) but in the time that I wrote that up about three messages popped up asking if I'd vote for USFL instead (which IIRC you were leading the last minute charge on that). That's all it is.

I find it funny that I'm under suspicion from you, is all. Posts 352-356 all happened while I was typing out my initial vote in post 357. Since a tie would just result in the village losing two people, I switched my vote to USFL as everyone was following your lead.

If you find something wrong with that, have a go then.

Does it seem liek martinD and TheNorm are both willing participants too much? Does that throw anyone else off like it does me?

[Lathum]

ummm

was going through some TheNorm posts.

Nevermind all that

[Lathum]

Does it seem liek martinD and TheNorm are both willing participants too much? Does that throw anyone else off like it does me?

It does but I see no way one of them isn't a wolf unless Schmidty was the marathoner and Abe is the last wolf.

IMO Me, PB, and Hoops are cleared. Abe is phoenix, that means one of them has to be the marathoner.

[Abe Sargent]

Unless Schmidty or CR was th marathoner. But I agree, its the best shot we got.

[TheNorm]

Alright, I've got a reveal. I know it's cutting it close, but I'm at work and my time is limited.

unvote TheNorm
vote hoopsguy

I'm the real hoplite. I wanted to hold off on revealing this because I'm fairly certain there are two werewolves, but I'm positive that hoops is one of them.

[Lathum]

Who did you guard any why?

[hoopsguy]

Well, this is interesting - I would have believed this reveal if it had come earlier. I was hoping that it would have come earlier than this, as I would have trusted it at that point. But now I'm thinking that this is a wolf caught in a net.

You have got me - I'm actually just a vanilla villager. Let me be clear - I lied about being the Hoplite, but I'M NOT A WOLF!!!!

I figured that by bluffing at the role that would help me know where to vote today. I knew I was good, I was hoping that I could trust the counter-reveal, and I would be willing to move over to the last remaining candidate as our wolf (likely Marathon).

[hoopsguy]

TheNorm - you posted earlier in the thread after my reveal, but didn't challenge my claim then. Why not? Why wait until there are only fifteen minutes before the deadline?

[Abe Sargent]

Last 15 minutes smacks fo desperation

[Lathum]

wait, what?

[Lathum]

hoops, you are claiming villager, but claiming Norm is lying?

Then who is the Hoplite?

[TheNorm]

Who did you guard any why?

Abe. Gut feeling just to guard him.

[Abe Sargent]

WTF?