WW XCII Athens -- Destroyed by Wolves!

[Passacaglia]

This is the thread for everyone in Athens.

[Passacaglia]

Athens
------
Abe Sargent
Lathum
hoopsguy
MartinD
TheNorm
PurdueBrad

[USFLTecmo]

Here! :)

[Abe Sargent]

Lol All

[TheNorm]

Hey everyone!

[Abe Sargent]

This is an interesting group.

[USFLTecmo]

Yes. Some vets, some rookies, some big talkers, some UTR candidates.

[EagleFan]

It looks like Pass is forcing me to keep my promise of not voting for PB on day one. :D

Hi all.

[MartinD]

Hi everyone

[Chief Rum]

Glad Lathum is over here so we can vote for him. ;)

[Chief Rum]

Okay, I'm not sure if this should be asked here or in the chatter thread, but since Pass made the point to keep talk there non-game-related, I'll ask here.

1. Do the wolves in the same city have PM rights? (I would assume yes)
2. Do the wolves in different cities have PM rights (across city boundaries)?
3. If the answer to #2 is no, do the wolves know who the wolves are in the other city?
4. Who are the wolves?
5. Do the wolves' PM rights they have here last into Hades? Or does a new PM group of wolves start there as they move there?
6. Can the wolves vote to kill someone in Hades if they don't have any wolves there? Or not until they have someone there? I am guessing the latter, from what was in the rules, but it was vague enough for me to not be sure.
7. Confirm or deny: the game ends when two cities are irretrievably in the hands of either the wolves or the villagers, right?
8. Are there any roles not listed in the rules? Are all the roles listed in the rules in the game?
9. Does anyone start in Hades?

Bummed I can't post some mad pic of Gerard Butler screaming "THIS IS SPARTA!"

I guess I'll settle for being a part of the hub of Western civilization. ;)

[Schmidty]

I'm still annoyed to be an Athenian, but hello fellow non-Spartans. :)

[Abe Sargent]

Damn CR

[Chief Rum]

Damn CR

Well, sheesh, we might as well ask these questions now, right? ;)

[Passacaglia]

Okay, I'm not sure if this should be asked here or in the chatter thread, but since Pass made the point to keep talk there non-game-related, I'll ask here.

1. Do the wolves in the same city have PM rights? (I would assume yes)
2. Do the wolves in different cities have PM rights (across city boundaries)?
3. If the answer to #2 is no, do the wolves know who the wolves are in the other city?
4. Who are the wolves?
5. Do the wolves' PM rights they have here last into Hades? Or does a new PM group of wolves start there as they move there?
6. Can the wolves vote to kill someone in Hades if they don't have any wolves there? Or not until they have someone there? I am guessing the latter, from what was in the rules, but it was vague enough for me to not be sure.
7. Confirm or deny: the game ends when two cities are irretrievably in the hands of either the wolves or the villagers, right?
8. Are there any roles not listed in the rules? Are all the roles listed in the rules in the game?
9. Does anyone start in Hades?

Bummed I can't post some mad pic of Gerard Butler screaming "THIS IS SPARTA!"

I guess I'll settle for being a part of the hub of Western civilization. ;)

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. N/A
4. The wolves are the bad guys.
5. All wolves can PM each other no matter where they are.
6. By 'vote to kill someone' do you mean lynch or night-kill? Either way, the answer is no -- you can only do stuff in cities where you are.
7. Right.
8. No. Yes.
9. No. You get to Hades by dying on Earth, and no one has done that yet.

[hoopsguy]

Morning, all. It is a beautiful day to be an Athenian. Death to Sparta.

I'll be ready to play full-bore this evening. Today I must safeguard the youth of Athens (my daughter) by returning her to her rightful home. We have journeyed far to visit our ancestors but will return by nightfall (Minneapolis to Chicago, 6+ hours in car with a two year old should be pretty awesome).

[USFLTecmo]

Hoops, I'm sure you know this already, but Tomah's a decent stop in between there. I do the Eau Claire to Madison haul quite frequently (family in Eau Claire), so 94 is like an old friend to me.

[EagleFan]

A few more questions for Pass...

1) If a wolf dies here are they revealed as a wolf?
2) Is CR a wolf?
3) Do the wolves get one night kill overall? Do the wolves get one kill per city?
4) Do roled players in one city lose their role when going to Hades?
5) Is Lathum a wolf?
6) What is the square root of 287?
7) I am running out of questions.... how are you?

[Passacaglia]

A few more questions for Pass...

1) If a wolf dies here are they revealed as a wolf?
2) Is CR a wolf?
3) Do the wolves get one night kill overall? Do the wolves get one kill per city?
4) Do roled players in one city lose their role when going to Hades?
5) Is Lathum a wolf?
6) What is the square root of 287?
7) I am running out of questions.... how are you?

1. Yes, with one exception.
2. That depends on whether or not he's one of the bad guys.
3. No. Wolves get one kill per city where they exist. I'll let you in on a little secret -- right now there are wolves in both Athens and Sparta, and none in Hades. So the wolves can make one kill in Athens, one in Sparta, and none in Hades.
4. No.
5. That depends on whether or not he's one of the bad guys.
6. I don't have enough space in this message for all the digits of that number, but I'll approximate. 17 squared is 289, so the square root of 287 has to be a little less than 17. 16 squared is 256. So somewhere around 16 31/33 roughly.
7. Good.

[EagleFan]

So Lathum is a wolf if he is one of the bad guys. He is a Mets fan which is by definition one of the bad guys so the next logical step in this sequence...

vote Lathum

[EagleFan]

I was worried about handing Hades to the wolves; as they could control that city if wolves got lynched on day one and if they only had one kill overall per day. Since they could have multiple kills coming in fromother cities it may eliminate that worry.

I am a little concerned that the wolves could potentially control the game through the use of Hades if they do put a wolf in there early. Of course this may be me posting a thought before I think it all the way through since I have a habit of doing that.

[Chief Rum]

I am concerned that the wolves can communicate wherever they are. That is a huge advantage. That means, not only do they know how things are going on each city, they know reveals (both by game and by individuals), and can put together a master plan for all three cities, where we can't do the same with other city's villagers. It's an immense disadvantage, one I'm not sure I have seen as large in a WW game. So I hope we have enough advantages to counteract that.

[EagleFan]

Here's my early take: ;)

Abe Sargent - haven't played with enough to get a read on him in a game, my early guess is that he's a wolf (based on nothing but gut)
EagleFan - villager
USFLTecmo - My early guess is that he's a villager
Lathum - always screams wolf but I think he's a villager this game
hoopsguy - wolf, just has to be (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)
MartinD - Just guessing villager
Schmidty - He had his wolf run, probably a villager
Chief Rum - Hope he's a villager, has a good knack at coming out of nowhere with a good read on things
TheNorm - Your guess is as good as mine.


I guess based on that it's Abe and hoops we need to keep an eye on. Always keep an eye on Lathum though.

Then again, it seems like I am always a wolf (not so much lately though) so I would suspect me if I were you. I'm not, but you should suspect me anyway.

[EagleFan]

I am concerned that the wolves can communicate wherever they are. That is a huge advantage. That means, not only do they know how things are going on each city, they know reveals (both by game and by individuals), and can put together a master plan for all three cities, where we can't do the same with other city's villagers. It's an immense disadvantage, one I'm not sure I have seen as large in a WW game. So I hope we have enough advantages to counteract that.

This kind of takes the politcal one to the next step with no common thread for all.

[MartinD]

I was worried about handing Hades to the wolves; as they could control that city if wolves got lynched on day one and if they only had one kill overall per day. Since they could have multiple kills coming in fromother cities it may eliminate that worry.

I am a little concerned that the wolves could potentially control the game through the use of Hades if they do put a wolf in there early. Of course this may be me posting a thought before I think it all the way through since I have a habit of doing that.

There is the possibility of the wolves getting near-unbreakable control of Hades early on (e.g. if two wolves are lynched on the first day, the wolves would be able to kill off one villager at night, then have a majority of the votes for the daytime lynch). Of course, this would mean that there would be two wolves less between Athens and Sparta, so the villagers would have a better chance of coming out on top in the two 'main' cities.

It will be interesting to see how this works out - as CR says, the wolves, being able to communicate irrespective of where they are, have a big advantage over the villagers, who will be kept in the dark about a lot of what's going on...

[Abe Sargent]

Here's my early take: ;)

Abe Sargent - haven't played with enough to get a read on him in a game, my early guess is that he's a wolf (based on nothing but gut)
EagleFan - villager
USFLTecmo - My early guess is that he's a villager
Lathum - always screams wolf but I think he's a villager this game
hoopsguy - wolf, just has to be (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)
MartinD - Just guessing villager
Schmidty - He had his wolf run, probably a villager
Chief Rum - Hope he's a villager, has a good knack at coming out of nowhere with a good read on things
TheNorm - Your guess is as good as mine.


I guess based on that it's Abe and hoops we need to keep an eye on. Always keep an eye on Lathum though.

Then again, it seems like I am always a wolf (not so much lately though) so I would suspect me if I were you. I'm not, but you should suspect me anyway.

I assume the smiley means this is a joke, right?

[Chief Rum]

By my count, we have heard from everyone but Lathum (who I expewct will be along shortly).

Anyone have any ideas how we want to approach the whole Ethor thing? Should we all just keep mum and just vote in private? Or should we discuss our choices here?

My PM didn't include anything on voting for the Ethor, so I assume we're relying on what Pass said in the rules, and that we have to PM him a vote for the position by the end of Day 1.

[Chief Rum]

Another question for Pass:

Are the double roles (roles with two entities in the game, Hoplites, Marathon Runners, Historians) split between the two main cities at the start? Meaning one Hoplite, Marathon Runner and Historian per city (not counting Hades)?

Ethor is set up to be that way, and the Phoenix's start that way, but it isn't stated in the others. I would guess that is the case.

[Chief Rum]

Assuming the answer to my question above is correct, we can probably make some reasonable assumptions about who we have in the village.

We will have an Ethor: whoever is voted, this could end up on a player already rol, and could end up on a wolf.

We will have a Historian: this role will always come up villager, and we will have one. This role may be good or evil. I find it unlikely that the evil Historian will be in the same village as the Evil Hoplite (although not mutually exclusive).

We will have a Hoplite: this role is either a villager or a wolf, so if the Hoplite in Sparta is a villager, we know the one here is a wolf (and vice versa), information that will probably only help us in Hades. Seems likely to have the opposite role of the Historian in the village (although not mutually exclusive).

We will have a Marathon Runner: this role is either a villager or a wolf, so same thing as the Hoplite. I would also guess that an evil Hoplite means a good Marathon Runner, for balance purposes (and vice versa). But once again, for all we know, Pass has determined placement by random.

The Phoenix are tricky. Seems to be a randomly determined role, so it could be good or evil. These could be a powerful tools for good, as they're the only way for the village to get information from Hades back to the cities. Which sets up the juxtaposition in Hades that the wolves will try to keep enemy Phoenix alive, rather than kill them, while we would want to send them on their way once they have useful information to send back to the cities.

But the Phoenix has a chance to fall on a wolf, which would almost game un-balancing bad. I have no idea if Pass would actually allow that in setting up his game, but his rules indicates he would. So that's troubling.

[Chief Rum]

New question for Pass (and this also assumes that each role has one in each city, my last question before):

Is the placement of good/evil versions of roles related to one another? In other words, is there a pre-defined pattern that says that the Evil Hoplite shares his city with the Good Historian and the Good Marathon Runner at the start, for instance? Or did you determine this completely at random (so all the evil roles could theoretically land in one city)?

[MartinD]

Anyone have any ideas how we want to approach the whole Ethor thing? Should we all just keep mum and just vote in private? Or should we discuss our choices here?

My PM didn't include anything on voting for the Ethor, so I assume we're relying on what Pass said in the rules, and that we have to PM him a vote for the position by the end of Day 1.

That's my interpretation - is up to each individual to send Pass a PM with their Ethor vote.

If there are people out there that want to get involved in fancy politicking to try to win votes, that's up to them. I'm probably going to keep my own counsel on this - will leave the discussion to those people who are wiser and more knowledgeable about the game (and hopefully pick up a few hints and tips as the game progresses... ;) )

A thought - don't see this in the rules anywhere, but I assume that the result of the Ethor vote will also be private? (In other words, the only people who know the result will be the person with most votes and Pass - until they use their ability to change the vote, that is...)

[Chief Rum]

Okay, we know all the roles are in the game (or will be, once the Ethors are voted for), so we know for sure that we have an Evil Historian (villager, can't communicate with the wolves) in the game, an evil seer who wins with the wolves. The good news about him is the lack of communication outside of the city thread (and lack of ability to go into the other threads to communicate publically).

We also know for sure we have an Evil Hoplite in the game, and an evil Marathon Runner.

We have 19 total players, 9 here in Athens, 10 in Sparta. Since the Evil Historian is a sorta wolf, I can't see there being more than 4 actual wolves in addition to the EHist in the game. I am going to assume for now that we have a worst case scenario and that there are four full wolves in the game. So there is one roled evil villager, two roled wolves and two unroled wolves, not counting the random possibility of the Phoenix or the election results of the Ethors.

If Pass balanced the wolves, we will have two wolves among us nine, with the possibility of the EHist also being among us. We know for sure there is at least one wolf vote in each city, so best case scenario there has one wolf and eight villagers here, but I find that extremely unlikely.

[Chief Rum]

A thought - don't see this in the rules anywhere, but I assume that the result of the Ethor vote will also be private? (In other words, the only people who know the result will be the person with most votes and Pass - until they use their ability to change the vote, that is...)

Good question, I am not sure. Pass?

[Lathum]

Here.

I need to read the rules and in my current hung over state that is going to be difficult.

[Passacaglia]

Another question for Pass:

Are the double roles (roles with two entities in the game, Hoplites, Marathon Runners, Historians) split between the two main cities at the start? Meaning one Hoplite, Marathon Runner and Historian per city (not counting Hades)?

Ethor is set up to be that way, and the Phoenix's start that way, but it isn't stated in the others. I would guess that is the case.

Each city has its own Ephor, Marathon Runner, and Phoenix. Historians and Hoplites can end up anywhere.

[Passacaglia]

New question for Pass (and this also assumes that each role has one in each city, my last question before):

Is the placement of good/evil versions of roles related to one another? In other words, is there a pre-defined pattern that says that the Evil Hoplite shares his city with the Good Historian and the Good Marathon Runner at the start, for instance? Or did you determine this completely at random (so all the evil roles could theoretically land in one city)?

Nothing quite so advanced -- I just made sure each city had its own Marathon Runner and Phoenix, and that the wolves were balanced between cities (same number of wolves in each city if the number of wolves is even, and one apart if the number of wolves is odd), and that's it.

[Chief Rum]

Each city has its own Ephor, Marathon Runner, and Phoenix. Historians and Hoplites can end up anywhere.

Oh, sorry if this is repetitive, I just want to be sure. So two Historians can end up in one city, and two Hoplites in one city. Or even all four in one city?

[Passacaglia]

A thought - don't see this in the rules anywhere, but I assume that the result of the Ethor vote will also be private? (In other words, the only people who know the result will be the person with most votes and Pass - until they use their ability to change the vote, that is...)

That's correct.

[Chief Rum]

Nothing quite so advanced -- I just made sure each city had its own Marathon Runner and Phoenix, and that the wolves were balanced between cities (same number of wolves in each city if the number of wolves is even, and one apart if the number of wolves is odd), and that's it.

Cool deal.

So it's possible for all the evil versions of roles to end up in the same city. Which will be pretty funny if the Evil Historian is in the same city as the Evil Hoplite (and they won't know it).

And so, if we assume four actual wolves, that means we have at least two wolves here. Only way to have one is if we back away from the four wolves concept and go with three. Does anyone see support for that? I suppose it's not out of the question to have three wolves and the EHist in a game of 19 players, especially with the advantages given to the wolves in this game. I would still prefer to go with the worst case scenario, though.

[Passacaglia]

Oh, sorry if this is repetitive, I just want to be sure. So two Historians can end up in one city, and two Hoplites in one city. Or even all four in one city?

Correct.

[Chief Rum]

You know, is there any role in this game (without corroborating information) that can reveal and be assumed to be that role, even if no one else speaks up? I think not.

I am almost thinking if anyone reveals in the cities, we're better off sending them to Hades. If they're bad, good riddance. If they're good, they'll still help in Hades.

The rules change in Hades, of course, where if you die (and you're not a Pheonix), you die. But here in Athens, we're not going to be certain of anything for a while, even with reveals.

[Abe Sargent]

I am announcing for the record that my early vote went to The Norm. Although obviously I'd like to be the ephor, since I am the only person I know to be a villager, I can;t vote for myself, so I went with a newer player to make sure he gets a fun role in his first game.

[EagleFan]

There is the possibility of the wolves getting near-unbreakable control of Hades early on (e.g. if two wolves are lynched on the first day, the wolves would be able to kill off one villager at night, then have a majority of the votes for the daytime lynch). Of course, this would mean that there would be two wolves less between Athens and Sparta, so the villagers would have a better chance of coming out on top in the two 'main' cities.

It will be interesting to see how this works out - as CR says, the wolves, being able to communicate irrespective of where they are, have a big advantage over the villagers, who will be kept in the dark about a lot of what's going on...

I know with one night kill this is definitely the case. With one in each city there could be the following:

Lucky results put 2 wolves in Hades day one: 2 W 0 V
A night kill in each city day one: 2 W 2 V

Worst case scenerio of a villager lynch in Hades day 2 makes it W 2 V 1.
Two villager lynches in the cities day 2 makes it W 2 V3.
Night kill in Hades day 2 makes it W2 V2.
Night kills in the other cities make it W2 V4 and the advantage is nullified.


That is why I was worried about there bing just one overall night kill as then it would be easy for the wolves to maintain Hades as slam dunk.

[EagleFan]

I assume the smiley means this is a joke, right?

That depends.... you tell me...

[Chief Rum]

Silly question, but I didn't see it set out. Is this a one or two deadline game? Meaning, 24 hour or day-night?

[Chief Rum]

And what will be the time difference between day and night if the latter?

[Passacaglia]

Silly question, but I didn't see it set out. Is this a one or two deadline game? Meaning, 24 hour or day-night?

24 hour.

[hoopsguy]

OK, back in Athens (Chicago) and ready to start digging into the rules. Based on the posts up to this point it seems like at least Chief Rum is a step ahead of me on this.

[hoopsguy]

Initial thought - I think the Ephor discussion should happen publicly, at least in narrowing down a list of candidates. If we all go on a blind draw that means that the wolves can get a leg up on voting for a candidate and then control the duke. If we have public candidates we can see who proclaims their backing of the candidates initially as well as what reasons they give for their candidate.

I know that the Ethor will not be publically revealed until using their power, which means identifying candidates in the thread may put some kind of a bullseye on them. But the wolf post-game discussion in the last game suggests that several (many?) players question the value of targeting the duke even when it is a "cleared" villager. I do not think that the bullseye is all that big, when taken in this context.

[hoopsguy]

Hoops, I'm sure you know this already, but Tomah's a decent stop in between there. I do the Eau Claire to Madison haul quite frequently (family in Eau Claire), so 94 is like an old friend to me.

The chariot ride was surprisingly uneventful. The youth of Athens was content to sleep for the majority of the ride and was exceedingly well mannered the rest of the time. At times like this I feel like the future of our city is in good hands.

[hoopsguy]

(inner monologue) "there were chariots in Athens, right? Hmm, I know there were in Rome ..."

[hoopsguy]

I am announcing for the record that my early vote went to The Norm. Although obviously I'd like to be the ephor, since I am the only person I know to be a villager, I can;t vote for myself, so I went with a newer player to make sure he gets a fun role in his first game.

I would love to be the Ephor as well, for similar reasoning as well as the fact that I've never had a pure duke role (only "Them Gays", which was a modified duke). That said, I'll likely cast my vote for a publicly declared candidate. Right now, we only have one and that is TheNorm by virtue of Abe's declared vote.

Obviously, if people would prefer not to have public duke discussion then I'll just go ahead and vote for someone.

TheNorm - will you have daytime availability and be around near the deadline on a regular basis? I do not think it is necessarily fair to expect every day for the entire game, but does your schedule give you a realistic chance for at least the first couple of days?

[Chief Rum]

Hmm, a little troubled by having a public discussion for the role of Ephor, but I can acknowledge that hoops is exactly right that by failing to focus our votes, we might allow the choice to fall into the hands of the wolves.

But how dangerous is it? We know from what Pass has said that we are likely to have two wolves in this city, with possibly the EHist as well. The EHist cannot communicate with the wolves (nor does he know who they are), so they can't work together on this one. That means we have a "pooling danger" of two votes. So if we make sure someone gets at least three votes, we remove the danger of the wolves by themselves picking the Ephor.

Technically, four votes is better. If some villager unluckily picks a wolf to back (very likely, with 7 of 9 villagers randomly having a 77.8% chance of voting for a villager, the odds that no wolf receives a villager vote for Ephor is a miniscule 17%), four votes gives us a lot more protection.

A landslide vote for the Ephor gives us clear protection from the wolves, if we chose the subject of that voting carefully (although we have so little information right now, it's impossible to make a reasoned choice). But a landslide vote also clearly identifies the Ephor, and I am not ready yet to make the leap others have been the last game or two, that the Ephor is not an automatic kill for the wolves, especially given no other choices.

Hmm, in fact, I might even have a better idea, combining the need for protection from allowing the wolves to dictate the Ephor choice with our need to introduce a little question into the Ephor's identity.

[Lathum]

Question

IT says in the rules that the wolves may send one of their own to Hades and they are then revealed as a villager.

I am a little confused by this, do they become a villager or are they revealed as villager but stay a wolf?

[Chief Rum]

Okay, how about this: two Ephor candidates. We can make TheNorm be one. TheNorm is at the bottom of the list. I immediately jumped to the top of the list to pick a second candidate, but that's Abe, who picked out TheNorm. I'm not inclined to make the second Ephor candidate the guy who picked out TheNorm, which would be a ballsy play for a potential wolf to make, but not unheard of. So I drop down one and get Eaglefan.

Okay, so let's say we have TheNorm and Eaglefan be our Ephor candidates. Nothing set in stone, of course--if Athens wants different candidates, fine, but let's decide quick and work together to get it done.

Here's my plan. Six villagers will automatically vote publically and for either of these two candidates. It will be three votes for one, three votes for the other. The remaining three voters will not announce their votes, but merely send in the PM, and will choose from the two candidates. In that way, we get protection from wolf manipulation, but at least make the Ephor's identity a little more difficult to pin down.

I'll post the city list in the next post and lay out how this would go (ideally). As always, this is just an idea, I am throwing out there, so if anyone has an issue or sees a serious problem or has a better idea, please say so.

[Chief Rum]

Question

IT says in the rules that the wolves may send one of their own to Hades and they are then revealed as a villager.

I am a little confused by this, do they become a villager or are they revealed as villager but stay a wolf?

Pass will have to confirm, of course, but I always thought that wolf stays a wolf, but is revealed here as a villager. So, basically that means we can't trust that a reveal of the wolf kill is 100% a villager.

[Passacaglia]

Question

IT says in the rules that the wolves may send one of their own to Hades and they are then revealed as a villager.

I am a little confused by this, do they become a villager or are they revealed as villager but stay a wolf?

Revealed as a villager, but stay a wolf.

[EagleFan]

Hmm, a little troubled by having a public discussion for the role of Ephor, but I can acknowledge that hoops is exactly right that by failing to focus our votes, we might allow the choice to fall into the hands of the wolves.

But how dangerous is it? We know from what Pass has said that we are likely to have two wolves in this city, with possibly the EHist as well. The EHist cannot communicate with the wolves (nor does he know who they are), so they can't work together on this one. That means we have a "pooling danger" of two votes. So if we make sure someone gets at least three votes, we remove the danger of the wolves by themselves picking the Ephor.

Technically, four votes is better. If some villager unluckily picks a wolf to back (very likely, with 7 of 9 villagers randomly having a 77.8% chance of voting for a villager, the odds that no wolf receives a villager vote for Ephor is a miniscule 17%), four votes gives us a lot more protection.

A landslide vote for the Ephor gives us clear protection from the wolves, if we chose the subject of that voting carefully (although we have so little information right now, it's impossible to make a reasoned choice). But a landslide vote also clearly identifies the Ephor, and I am not ready yet to make the leap others have been the last game or two, that the Ephor is not an automatic kill for the wolves, especially given no other choices.

Hmm, in fact, I might even have a better idea, combining the need for protection from allowing the wolves to dictate the Ephor choice with our need to introduce a little question into the Ephor's identity.

Since only the wolves know each other it still is just as likely that our "decision" ends up being a wolf. It's just like a random day one vote, only this one we can't see the votes to analyze them.

[EagleFan]

Pass will have to confirm, of course, but I always thought that wolf stays a wolf, but is revealed here as a villager. So, basically that means we can't trust that a reveal of the wolf kill is 100% a villager.

This is true. Actually the wolves can clinch Hades if they "night kill" every one of them early without allowing a villager into Hades.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, here's the list:

Athens
------
Abe Sargent-- TheNorm
EagleFan-- TheNorm
USFLTecmo-- Eaglefan
Lathum-- silent vote
hoopsguy-- TheNorm
MartinD-- silent vote
Schmidty-- silent vote
Chief Rum-- Eaglefan
TheNorm-- Eaglefan

I bolded the suggested candidates. Green votes for the two players who already said where they would vote.

TheNorm necessarily votes for Eaglefan. Eaglefan necessarily votes for TheNorm.

TheNorm public voters would then be set. I will put myself down as a public Eaglefan voter, so that no one thinks the the "plan creator" is manipulating things by setting up the plan with himself as one of the silent voters.

Of the four remaining voters, I had to pick one of Lathum, Schmidty, USFLTecmo and MartinD for the third Eaglefan vote. I didn't really have a pattern to follow there, so I just went from the top of the list Pass posted above and made USFL the third Eaglefan vote.

So that means our silent "Ephor-makers" would be Lathum, MartinD and Schmidty. Seems to me to be a good mix, no obvious connections among the three, with a balance of veteran players and new board members.

How does that work with everyone?

[Chief Rum]

Okay, I selected EF as stated above, not knowing he was right there to post. If that is suspicious to anyone, we can find another candidate.

[Chief Rum]

This is true. Actually the wolves can clinch Hades if they "night kill" every one of them early without allowing a villager into Hades.

But if they lynch themselves to Hades, they lose the cities. And they need to control two cities to win.

[hoopsguy]

I'm fine with whatever two candidates that we select, provided that they both state that they will have daytime availability to read the thread and make an informed duke decision near the deadline. From there, I'll play along with a modified version of Chief's plan or whatever others think makes sense.

I do not want to elect a duke that will not be in position to make good decisions with his ability based on the deadlines for this game.

With that in mind, I do not think that Chief Rum would make a good candidate, despite his very solid duke performance last game. Chief, please tell me differently if you have alternate hours this week.

MartinD, knowing you are on the other side of the world I'm guessing this deadline would be tough for you as well.

Outside of that, I do not know of anyone whose hours would preclude them from Ephor-dom.

[EagleFan]

But if they lynch themselves to Hades, they lose the cities. And they need to control two cities to win.

I know, just trying to put the thought in their heads... :)

[EagleFan]

As much as I would like to try out the "duke" role I may not be the best choice for deadline availability. The mid afternoon deadline may be a tough one for me to definitely be on for.

[Chief Rum]

I do still work at the same time, but I am now able to get to FOFC using one of the firewall workarounds that have been circulated here. That said, I'm not particularly anxious to be Ephor, as I don't like to spend much time at work reading FOFC (I have a ton of work right now, and it doesn't get done if I don't do it).

I agree that the Ephor needs to be available at deadline and able to stay up on what's going on in the thread, so hoops is right that before we proceed as is here, TheNorm and Eaglefan need to confirm that they can serve this sort of role. Or other candidates requested (although I don't think we should have an open candidacy because that just opens the process to further manipulation).

[Chief Rum]

As much as I would like to try out the "duke" role I may not be the best choice for deadline availability. The mid afternoon deadline may be a tough one for me to definitely be on for.

Maybe Lathum then? TheNorm is new to the board (regardless of his WW experience elsewhere), so we should make the second duke option someone who has more familiarity with the veteran players here at FOFC, I think.

[EagleFan]

I'm already voting Lathum for one thing, might as well make it two. :)

[EagleFan]

With that said, CR is coming off a game where he was a superstar of a duke...

[EagleFan]

I like the extra dynamic of this game. Hades could become the final showdown for the game or completely useless.

[EagleFan]

Has Lathum ever been this quiet? Wolf!!!! Wolf!!!!! :D

[Lathum]

I need to know if the duke will also be around at deadlines.

I also have a problem voting for EF since he already cast a vote for me. I know I'm not a wolf and him voting me elevates my suspicion of him.

[Lathum]

Has Lathum ever been this quiet? Wolf!!!! Wolf!!!!! :D

my friends took me out for my birthday yesterday and I am really hung over today.

[Lathum]

Maybe Lathum then? TheNorm is new to the board (regardless of his WW experience elsewhere), so we should make the second duke option someone who has more familiarity with the veteran players here at FOFC, I think.

I have noon availablity every day FWIW

[EagleFan]

I need to know if the duke will also be around at deadlines.

I also have a problem voting for EF since he already cast a vote for me. I know I'm not a wolf and him voting me elevates my suspicion of him.

I'm voting for you for both votes "today". I guess I am just confused.

I had no choice but vote for you, Pass' answer alone led to the logic behind the vote (which is pretty sound logic if you ask me ;) ).

[EagleFan]

my friends took me out for my birthday yesterday and I am really hung over today.

Happy Birthday!!!

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, happy birthday, Lathum.

[hoopsguy]

I would prefer that we not vote off the person who is going to be Ephor. So there is a decent secondary benefit to having some public discussion on them ... there is not a lot of reason to put votes on the guys we are thinking of making our duke before they can use the ability.

It is not going to be an informed vote, but that doesn't mean we should just burn it when we have a statistical probability of giving it to a villager.

[Lathum]

Happy Birthday!!!

thanks, I'm told I had fun

[TheNorm]

More often than not, I'm available around that timeframe--I'll be at work Tuesday-Friday at those times, but I can get online around that time. :)

[hoopsguy]

I'm fine with TheNorm vs Lathum as our public candidates. I'll cast my vote where I'm supposed to, per the Chief Rum plan (substituting Lathum for EF).

EF (instead of Lathum), MartinD, and Schmidty still cool as our silent voters?

[Chief Rum]

Awesome, both TheNorm and Lathum seem down and available for this. hoops has it right.

So here's how it goes:

The following vote for TheNorm: Abe Sargent, hoopsguy, Lathum
The following vote for Lathum: Chief Rum, TheNorm, USFLTecmo

The following vote for EITHER TheNorm or Lathum silently, not announcing their votes: Schmidty, Eaglefan, MartinD

And, hoops, you're still on TheNorm per the plan. I figure you just miswrote that in this last post and meant you will vote TheNorm.

[hoopsguy]

Yeah, I'll vote TheNorm. I should have been more clear about what I was typing above, as it certainly makes sense how that could have been misinterpreted.

[hoopsguy]

BTW, we have 40 more posts and 100 more views than the slackers from Sparta :)

[EagleFan]

unvote Lathum

[EagleFan]

BTW, we have 40 more posts and 100 more views than the slackers from Sparta :)

Spartans down 40... I guess we're the Athens Tarheels?


:devil:

[Chief Rum]

BTW, we have 40 more posts and 100 more views than the slackers from Sparta :)

Heh...there was a brief time earlier today where Sparta moved two posts ahead of us. I basically said screw that, and started my series of postings about the rules and interpretations. ;)

BTW, anyone have any takes on what I suggested as possible considerations given the rule set? About where the wolves might be, how many we're dealing with, or what our strategy should be as a city?

[Chief Rum]

Spartans down 40... I guess we're the Athens Tarheels?


:devil:

Ouch...that might earn you a vote from Jay.

[EagleFan]

Heh...there was a brief time earlier today where Sparta moved two posts ahead of us. I basically said screw that, and started my series of postings about the rules and interpretations. ;)

BTW, anyone have any takes on what I suggested as possible considerations given the rule set? About where the wolves might be, how many we're dealing with, or what our strategy should be as a city?

I think we should try to play this like it's a small game. If we win our city than we can concentrate on Hades if the slackers from Sparta don't hold up their side.

I am guessing 2 wolves here and 3 in Sparta.

[Chief Rum]

I am guessing 2 wolves here and 3 in Sparta.

Any reason why? Because they have 10 inhabitants to our 9? Or some other reason?

[hoopsguy]

Heh...there was a brief time earlier today where Sparta moved two posts ahead of us. I basically said screw that, and started my series of postings about the rules and interpretations. ;)

BTW, anyone have any takes on what I suggested as possible considerations given the rule set? About where the wolves might be, how many we're dealing with, or what our strategy should be as a city?

Quick post before going to bed for night:
1.) Guessing 4 wolves between cities plus the anti-seer.
2.) Guessing 2-2 split between cites.
3.) No idea on city strategy. Historically, I would like to rout Sparta but I'm not sure it is a winning play at this stage of the game. I suspect that this may change as we see how the first couple of days develop.

The wolves/city split is mainly based on tidyness as a moderator. From a % and balance sense, they seem like the "right" numbers. I think an uneven # of wolves plus a seer seems a little imbalanced, especially with them able to talk cross-city. I do not completely accept random.org for wolf distribution, as that could leave one city DOA and another with no chance of wolf victory save villagers leading an attack on the other city. Even a 3-1 split seems kinda dodgy.

[hoopsguy]

Nothing quite so advanced -- I just made sure each city had its own Marathon Runner and Phoenix, and that the wolves were balanced between cities (same number of wolves in each city if the number of wolves is even, and one apart if the number of wolves is odd), and that's it.

Guess that I was correct on the "tidyness" - went back looking through earlier posts when I saw EF's assumption of five wolves.

[Chief Rum]

Quick post before going to bed for night:
1.) Guessing 4 wolves between cities plus the anti-seer.
2.) Guessing 2-2 split between cites.
3.) No idea on city strategy. Historically, I would like to rout Sparta but I'm not sure it is a winning play at this stage of the game. I suspect that this may change as we see how the first couple of days develop.

The wolves/city split is mainly based on tidyness as a moderator. From a % and balance sense, they seem like the "right" numbers. I think an uneven # of wolves plus a seer seems a little imbalanced, especially with them able to talk cross-city. I do not completely accept random.org for wolf distribution, as that could leave one city DOA and another with no chance of wolf victory save villagers leading an attack on the other city. Even a 3-1 split seems kinda dodgy.

Yeah, I asked Pass about the breakdown, and he said the wolves would be split evenly, straight even if an even number of wolves, or within one if odd. He didn't mention how the EHist would be placed, except that he suggested earlier to another question from me that the placement of the EHist is random, and not related to the placement or allegiance of other roles. I only bring that up to say it's still technically possible with 3 wolves that we have one wolf and not even have the EHist. I don't believe that's true (I said earlier I think it's 2-2 city split, with the EHist in one or the other), but I have to toss out it's possible if there are just 3 wolves.

[Schmidty]

I work monday, tuesday, thursday, and friday until 5 p.m. EST. I won't be around after 12 p.m. EST. Just letting everyone know.

[Chief Rum]

Guess that I was correct on the "tidyness" - went back looking through earlier posts when I saw EF's assumption of five wolves.

Oh, yeah, I saw EF's 5 as including the EHist, but I think that was my own assumption. I agree with hoops, I don't see there being 5 wolves in the game. Pass said all the roles are in the game, and that means the EHist is active, too. I don't see there being an evil villager and 5 wolves in a 19-person game.

[Chief Rum]

I work monday, tuesday, thursday, and friday until 5 p.m. EST. I won't be around after 12 p.m. EST. Just letting everyone know.

Cool, as long as you can get in your secret Ephor vote. You're one of the three "quiet voters" we have set out in my plan above.

[EagleFan]

Any reason why? Because they have 10 inhabitants to our 9? Or some other reason?

Just guessing 5 wolves based on 19 players but it could be 4. If it is 5 wolves it would seem to make more sense to have the 3 wolves be in the city with 10 instead of the city with 9 (7-2 and 7-3 seems to make more sense than 6-3 and 8-2).

[EagleFan]

Hmmmm, CR seems to be pretty set on the number of wolves. Were there just 3 others in your PM CR? ;)

[Chief Rum]

Hmmmm, CR seems to be pretty set on the number of wolves. Were there just 3 others in your PM CR? ;)

Naw, 5 is way too many with a 6th player against us in the EHist. hoops agrees with me there, too. No way the wolves get one-third of the players to start.

[EagleFan]

Naw, 5 is way too many with a 6th player against us in the EHist. hoops agrees with me there, too. No way the wolves get one-third of the players to start.

My problem is that I don't read rules well. I agree that 6 total is too many. My guess of 5 should have really been 5 evil roles then. With that said I would think 2 + 2 with the othe role being in Sparta, just for the numbers game.

I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Chief Rum]

Hey Pass, could you please pass along the message to Sparta to get their ass in gear? Thanks. :D

[Abe Sargent]

BTW, we have 40 more posts and 100 more views than the slackers from Sparta :)

Yeah!

[Lathum]

I sent in my vote for TheNorm

[Chief Rum]

I put in my vote for Lathum.

[EagleFan]

I put in my vote for.... someone

[EagleFan]

Looks like they finally made it to page 2... :)

Time for me to get some sleep. I may have a very busy day tomorrow but I hope to check in during lunch time for a bit (hopefully it won't be a working lunch and I can get a few minutes free).

[EagleFan]

just in case I get trapped.


vote Abe

Seems odd that a vet would come out and want a brand new player to be the duke in his first ever game, and announce it (his vote) in thread before the idea of the public vote came out. Maybe he and TheNorm need to be watched a little more closely.

[Chief Rum]

Little obvious, don't you think?

All that taking a chance on a Day One vote matters less in the cities, since if Abe is good, it just gives us a villager in Hades.

[Chief Rum]

Wow, what was I typing above? "All that..." should be translated to "Although..."

[Abe Sargent]

just in case I get trapped.


vote Abe

Seems odd that a vet would come out and want a brand new player to be the duke in his first ever game, and announce it (his vote) in thread before the idea of the public vote came out. Maybe he and TheNorm need to be watched a little more closely.

Give me some credit.

[Schmidty]

Cool, as long as you can get in your secret Ephor vote. You're one of the three "quiet voters" we have set out in my plan above.

Quite honestly, I don't give f*ck about your plans. I play by my own rules every game. If you wanna mess with me, step up. :)

[Schmidty]

Dola. It's my first day tomorrow, so wish me luck!!

[Abe Sargent]

Luck!

[Schmidty]

Sparta is looking pretty dead.

Anyway, I know I won't win Ephor, so I'll send my vote right now. Will it be Lathum, Abe, CR, or.......a newbie?

[Lathum]

Dola. It's my first day tomorrow, so wish me luck!!

what are you gonna be doing?

[Abe Sargent]

I'm listening to Air Supply

[Abe Sargent]

This is where Lathum makes fun of my musical tastes again

[Schmidty]

what are you gonna be doing?

I won't tell you. It's below what I should be doing. :(

But it's temporary.

[Lathum]

I won't tell you. It's below what I should be doing. :(

But it's temporary.

there is nothing low about earning an honest living.

Good luck with whatever it is!

[Chief Rum]

Sparta is looking pretty dead.

Anyway, I know I won't win Ephor, so I'll send my vote right now. Will it be Lathum, Abe, CR, or.......a newbie?

Heh...I guess technically that's okay (it's your vote), but the idea is to vote for TheNorm or Lathum to protect us from the wolves ganging up and deciding the Ephor. The point is that we won't know which you vote for (and neither will the wolves, assuming you're not one yourself ;) ).

But I suppose it doesn't matter so long as one of our choices for Ephor goes through, and that the wolves still won't know who it is (nor, hopefully, control whoever it is).

Good luck tomorrow with your new job!

[Chief Rum]

All right, I am going to get a lynch vote in now, in case I can't get on at work for some reason. No real good reason for this one (being Day One), except that I haven't seen him around enough yet. Plus, I already played most of the last game with him, so new guy hands off rules I don't see applying here as much.

VOTE LYNCH USFLTECMO

But of course this is subject to change, should we get a better candidate or if a tie needs to be broken or whatever. I'm not as concerned about these votes in the city here, since the loser goes to Hades, and it's the only way we know for sure (a village lynch) that that person is not a wolf.

[USFLTecmo]

Gloves are off, now, eh? :) I thought that was already the case when Lathum duked the newbie two games ago and totally blew any chance the wolves had. ;)

The Canucks and sleep (since I'm going to work here in 5 minutes) had my attention last night, for the most part.

Around near the deadline, and my ephor vote is cast for Lathum, as per the plan. Off to work now, back around 9ish central.

[Passacaglia]

Hey Pass, could you please pass along the message to Sparta to get their ass in gear? Thanks. :D

Heh, they've already noticed that they've been getting knocked around by you guys, post-wise.

[Abe Sargent]

Because we're awesome!

[Passacaglia]

Here's a vote count for you guys:


Lathum -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 1 Eagle Fan (107)
USFLTecmo -- 1 Chief Rum (121)

[Abe Sargent]

Vote EF

Totally retaliatory and not for any real reason.

[Abe Sargent]

They've had 30 posts in an hour or two. My guess - they are trying to catch up with us. But we are Athens and they are Sparta. Eventually, they'll forget how to speak and start mucking about with pointed sticks again.

[EagleFan]

Not much talk going on. I guess those of us in Athens have jobs. ;)

To elaborate on my earlier comment. I am giving you credit Abe. Why not take a shot at what seems like a completely innocent comment? That may not mean that TheNorm even is a wolf to be honest but tells me that if you are then Lathum most likely isn't.

Who among us gets accused of being a wolf more than anyone? Lathum. Giving the duke powers to a new player who would not know that increases that chance that if he dukes anywhere it could very well be to Lathum.

So to answer your statement, yes I am giving you credit.

[EagleFan]

My applogies to Pass. I accidentally clicked the Sparta link after my last post. I had returned to the WW main forum and assumed the post I had just made was the top thread. Only saw the name of a poster and realized it was the wrong thread and backed out without reading anything.

[Passacaglia]

My applogies to Pass. I accidentally clicked the Sparta link after my last post. I had returned to the WW main forum and assumed the post I had just made was the top thread. Only saw the name of a poster and realized it was the wrong thread and backed out without reading anything.

No problem, it happens.

[Alan T]

My applogies to Pass. I accidentally clicked the Sparta link after my last post. I had returned to the WW main forum and assumed the post I had just made was the top thread. Only saw the name of a poster and realized it was the wrong thread and backed out without reading anything.

Burn him! Burn him!

[hoopsguy]

This morning has turned out to be a little more busy than I would expect. But it does not appear that there are all that many new posts to read. I'm expecting to throw out a vote post sometime over the next hour in order to allow potential candidates time to respond prior to the deadline.

[hoopsguy]

OK, here is early voting logic:
1.) Not going to vote for known villager (self)
2.) Not going to vote for Ephor candidate (Lathum and TheNorm)
3.) With vote 1-1-1 I'm not going to introduce a new candidate

So, EF/Abe/USFL. Well, USFL gave me some helpful driving information earlier in thread. And I haven't really had a chance to play a game with Abe in awhile (on accounting of dying D1 last game) so that leaves EagleFan.

Not exactly scientific, but that is the logic. And I fully realize that I'm casting the notorious "2nd vote on a candidate" but so be it. I've always felt that data point was overrated, anyway.

VOTE EAGLEFAN

[hoopsguy]

OK, have a client emergency which means I'm going to be on the road and have sporadic access to the thread over the next couple of hours. I'm expecting to be able to get to the thread between now and deadline, but it is not a sure thing.

[hoopsguy]

OK - looks like we are going to be a night-time posting group this game?

As it looks right now, I'll be able to continue checking in, on and off, over the next hour. All bets are off after that point.

[MartinD]

OK - have caught up with what's happened since yesterday evening, and have sent Pass my vote for Ephor.

The deadline for this game isn't too bad for me - 2pm US Central is 8pm UK time. I won't be around tomorrow or Wednesday at deadline, though - have a couple of meetings to go to. (For what it's worth, I don't have access to FOFC at work, so will be checking in before and after I go to work.)

Now, I need to take a bit of time to think about who to vote for...

[MartinD]

It's a first-day vote, so very little to work on. I don't want to add another candidate, and don't really want to put EagleFan a couple of votes out in front, so it comes down to Abe or USFL.

I don't have an opinion either way, so I flipped a coin to decide.

VOTE USFLTECMO

(This vote may change, depending on how the other votes fall...)

[USFLTecmo]

Seems this is my best self-defense move right now:

VOTE EAGLEFAN

[Lathum]

His early vote on me seemed off to me, and since I know I'm not a wolf it elevates him as one in my mind.

VOTE EF

[Lathum]

Question.

Do you guys think it would make sense to lynch tomorrow whoever didn't get voted Ephor. Would that maybe give us some clarity into the selection process?

Are the Ephor votes made public after the vote of do they always stay a secret?

[hoopsguy]

Lathum, I do not think that we learn who was voted Ephor. So unless the person who is voted Ephor wants to reveal it in the thread that does not seem like a viable strategy.

My bigger worry in doing something like this is that even with our public strategy there is still potentially room for wolves to manipulate the vote. So we probably have a slightly higher chance of a wolf being Ephor than a villager. Conversely, we have a slightly higher chance of a villager being runner up than a villager.

If we have two wolves competing, your plan is excellent but doesn't exactly provide insight into the voting process.

If we have two villagers competing, your plan is bad.

If we have a wolf and a villager competing, then I have the concerns listed above.

So, overall I'm not a huge fan of this idea.

[Passacaglia]

Vote count:


Lathum -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 1 Eagle Fan (107)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)

[EagleFan]

Can't say that I'm surprised at the moment (I guess I shouldn't have said I may not be on enough around the deadline :) ). Watch your backs though. You're being played by the wolves and letting them dictate how this game plays out. Watch Abe and company.

Self defense only at this point:

unvote Abe - might as well take my vote off the wolf since I am the only one there so far

vote USFL

[Lathum]

Lathum, I do not think that we learn who was voted Ephor. So unless the person who is voted Ephor wants to reveal it in the thread that does not seem like a viable strategy.

My bigger worry in doing something like this is that even with our public strategy there is still potentially room for wolves to manipulate the vote. So we probably have a slightly higher chance of a wolf being Ephor than a villager. Conversely, we have a slightly higher chance of a villager being runner up than a villager.

If we have two wolves competing, your plan is excellent but doesn't exactly provide insight into the voting process.

If we have two villagers competing, your plan is bad.

If we have a wolf and a villager competing, then I have the concerns listed above.

So, overall I'm not a huge fan of this idea.

all true, just trying to get some discussion out there, catch up to their thread count.

[Lathum]

Can't say that I'm surprised at the moment (I guess I shouldn't have said I may not be on enough around the deadline :) ). Watch your backs though. You're being played by the wolves and letting them dictate how this game plays out. Watch Abe and company.

Self defense only at this point:

unvote Abe - might as well take my vote off the wolf since I am the only one there so far

vote USFL

why are you so certain Abe's a wolf?

[EagleFan]

why are you so certain Abe's a wolf?

The more I think about it the more it makes sense. He is the first person to come out and mention voting for TheNorm for Ephor. Why would you want a brand new player to have that position?

1) Both Abe and TheNorm are wolves, trying to sneak the "throw a bone to the new player" ploy in as a reason. Not really a good play to come out like that.
2) Abe is a wolf and tried the same play. If he is a wolf and you are not he is trying to gain favor from a new player and hoping that you look like a wolf to the new player. It's not a stretch to think that a new player will assume that you are a wolf with your normal play style. The chances of a new player duking to a villager with an unfamiliar style are greater than the chances of a new player picking up on small signs from a veteran wolf.
3) Abe is a villager and wants to throw a bone to the new player. Not a great play based on the explanation from number 2.


I have an idea who may be Abe's partner in crime at this point but want to see how this plays out a little more before naming anyone else. Of course if it looks like I am about to be lynched prior to the deadline I will lay my entire hand on the table and you can do with it as you see fit from that point forward.


Lynching me does the following:

1) Hurts the village in Athens as it will be a day one villager lynching.
2) At least puts a villager in Hades but who know how that will play out at this time.

[Chief Rum]

I agree with hoops. I don't see a positive benefit to taking out the losing Ephor candidate, even if we choose to have that information out there (which runs contrary to the whole point of doing what we're doing right now)

EF has the early lead here, but we all know that there's really no case against EF or anyone at this point. Whoever ends up being voted out shouldn't regard it as the city taking them out, but as an opportunity to be our first ambassador to Hades, to take control there and prepare for the arrival of more of us soon.

That's assuming we haven't landed on a wolf somewhere in the voting, and I would guess we have not, based on usual Day 1 history.

[Lathum]

OK, I know this has been addressed but...

If EF is a wolf is he listed as a wolf in this thread once he is lynched?

[EagleFan]

You can hear crickets in here today after all that activity yesterday.

[Passacaglia]

OK, I know this has been addressed but...

If EF is a wolf is he listed as a wolf in this thread once he is lynched?

Yes.

[EagleFan]

Looks like I have an hour left in Athens unless my fellow villagers take control of the thread. Look at Abe tomorrow when you see that I am a villager.

[EagleFan]

Actually, I am going out guns blazing. Follow along if you want to nail a wolf day one. The more I think about my theory number two the more it makes sense. Lynch Abe today. IF he turns up clean than I will even vote for myself on day two.

unvote USFL

vote Abe

[EagleFan]

You saw last game just what a veteran duke can do. These are things that a 1st timer would not have picked up on. I feel 90 percent certain that a 1st timer either would have taken the power to his "grave" or duked to villager Lathum.

[Abe Sargent]

Dammit I just pulled an EF and acdentally went into the Sparta thread too. I didn;t read anything, just saw someone in the thread who wasn;t in our, paniced, and left.

[TheNorm]

FYI--I have played this game before, even if it wasn't here. I'm not exactly new to this, so cut me some slack. :D

I do have to step out for a little while though and I can't guarantee I'll be back by 2pm, so...I don't know. I'm siding with EagleFan here, albeit with reservations. Gut feeling tells me he's a villager here.

vote Abe

[EagleFan]

FYI--I have played this game before, even if it wasn't here. I'm not exactly new to this, so cut me some slack. :D

I do have to step out for a little while though and I can't guarantee I'll be back by 2pm, so...I don't know. I'm siding with EagleFan here, albeit with reservations. Gut feeling tells me he's a villager here.

vote Abe

Didn't mean to imply hat you are brand new to playing but that you are new here. That is something that could affect your decisions if you haven't played with the group in the past so you may not pick up on something in your first game with the group. Some things that people do may seem wolfish if you haven't seen it in the context of previous games.

It just seems too odd that a villager would want to come right out and give a person playing here for the 1st time the power. Not saying that you are a bad choice, just that I question Abe's motives.

[hoopsguy]

Does anyone have a vote count?

[Alan T]

Does anyone have a vote count?

I do!

[EagleFan]

Just realized what a nightmare this may become for Pass once Hades is active...

[Alan T]

Lathum -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 2 Eagle Fan (152), TheNorm (155)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)

[hoopsguy]

Thanks, Alan :)

OK, as we get a little closer to the deadline I think we want to try avoiding a tie unless there is a real good reason to do so. It means multiple deaths and if we do not have an idea of who is good/bad then we are at considerable risk of losing two villagers.

I'm all for putting two people to death if we find ourselves in an either/or situation but I do not think that is going to be the case on Day 1.

[EagleFan]

Sweet, can we hire Alan as the official Athens' vote counter? :)

[Passacaglia]

Lathum -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 2 Eagle Fan (152), TheNorm (155)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)

Hey! How did you get my spreadsheet?!?

[EagleFan]

It's like a library in here, no one is talking.

[Chief Rum]

Checking in for the last time before deadline, in case the wolves kill me. So it's known what was the last post I read before leaving.

I recommend everyone making a similar post if leaving before deadline.

[EagleFan]

18 minutes before village bad play number one.

Assuming there are 2 wolves it's 7-2 now. Killing me and a night kill make it 5-2. You HAVE to hit tomorrow or it'll be 3-2 and almost city won for the wolves at that point.

Repeat after me.... vote Abe..... vote Abe

[EagleFan]

Don't worry CR, unless your wolf buddy Abe is planning on sending you to Hades to "represent" there, you are safe. But then you know that.

[hoopsguy]

EagleFan - I'm around and will be up to the deadline.

I'm willing to change my vote if there is sufficient value to having you here rather than in Hades. But if you are a vanilla villager then going right to Hades isn't the worst thing in the world - at least not in terms of carrying on in the game. You are cleared in this thread, which means that every villager from Athens that follows you can vouch for you later on.

[EagleFan]

Convenient how Abe mentions the "TheNorm" thing and then you orchestrate the move (trying to push Abe into the background). Once I put heat on Abe you target me. Remember all of this fellow villagers.

[EagleFan]

Hades isn't the worst thing in the world right now but it means you HAVE to have a good vote tomorrow or the city is almost lost already. That means we then have to win Hades and Sparta and we have no control over Sparta.

[hoopsguy]

18 minutes before village bad play number one.

Assuming there are 2 wolves it's 7-2 now. Killing me and a night kill make it 5-2. You HAVE to hit tomorrow or it'll be 3-2 and almost city won for the wolves at that point.

Repeat after me.... vote Abe..... vote Abe

On that topic - what are your thoughts on attacking Sparta if we find ourselves down to a 3-2 ratio? If you do end up dead and are shown as a villager then at least I can trust your thoughts on the matter.

Do you think there is a point where it is worth surrendering one city to the wolves in an effort to make sure that we are not giving away both?

Or do you worry that we would be bringing more wolves to a city that is potentially doing better than us, which could increase the likelihood of both cities falling to wolves without Hades ever coming into play?

[Abe Sargent]

Don't worry CR, unless your wolf buddy Abe is planning on sending you to Hades to "represent" there, you are safe. But then you know that.

I like how, according to EF, I must be a wolf, and half of the people here are my wolf buddies.

[hoopsguy]

Damn, Sparta has been a ton more active than us today. They have nearly 2x as many views now in addition to the post lead.

Not that it matters all that much if we are successful in catching wolves. But less discussion suggests that it is going to be harder to do.

[Abe Sargent]

Didn't mean to imply hat you are brand new to playing but that you are new here. That is something that could affect your decisions if you haven't played with the group in the past so you may not pick up on something in your first game with the group. Some things that people do may seem wolfish if you haven't seen it in the context of previous games.

It just seems too odd that a villager would want to come right out and give a person playing here for the 1st time the power. Not saying that you are a bad choice, just that I question Abe's motives.

It removes all biases, since he doesn;t know any of us. I think it was a great call on my part. He knows WW, but not us. Who could be more impartial?

[Lathum]

so am I not allowed to be in this thread after noon?

[EagleFan]

I would say do the attack if it's 3-2 at that point. That way you are bringing everyone left in the two cities together and you can begin to use the evidence that everyone has to our advantage.

Granted it is a tough call as you said it could be brining more trouble to their city but it could also help a lot based on what is said in this thread. If we are going to fall down 0-1 then it may be best to make the move and go for broke.

[EagleFan]

Remember Abe and CR.

[Passacaglia]

so am I not allowed to be in this thread after noon?

You can be in the thread -- just keep on eye on whether or not you get a PM. If you're worried that you won't notice getting a PM, there's an option that makes a box pop up when you get a PM in the User CP.

[Abe Sargent]

I would also want to attack if we win the city. Wolf kill today, antoehr tomorrow and we can move over to Sparta and help them out there, if the rules allow you to attack after you've won the city. I'm not sure if you go to Hades then or not.

[Passacaglia]

Deadline!

[EagleFan]

Good luck village

[Passacaglia]

Vote count, let me know if it's wrong:


Lathum -- 0
Abe Sargent -- 2 EagleFan (152) TheNorm (155)
USFLTecmo -- 2 Chief Rum (121) MartinD (137)
EagleFan -- 4 Abe Sargent (126) hoopsguy (133) USFLTecmo (138) Lathum (139)

[Abe Sargent]

Someone not vote?

[Abe Sargent]

Schmidty

[MartinD]

Schmidty

Does this mean that Schmidty automatically starts with one vote from now on?

From rules thread:

Each day a player misses a vote, a one-vote penalty is added to his vote count, applied throughout the game.

[Abe Sargent]

Looks like it

[PurdueBrad]

I'm new in town, where does a guy go to get a drink?

[Abe Sargent]

Looks like Poli got killed over at Sparta, since he was posting in the Hades thread. I checked the rules and there is nothing about just seeing who is posting there. Don;t click to see how many posts, don;t look in, etc, but nothing about just reporting who is posting there.

[Abe Sargent]

Heya PB - Marathon?

[Passacaglia]

Looks like Poli got killed over at Sparta, since he was posting in the Hades thread. I checked the rules and there is nothing about just seeing who is posting there. Don;t click to see how many posts, don;t look in, etc, but nothing about just reporting who is posting there.

Nothing wrong with that.

[hoopsguy]

Hmm, was just thinking to myself as I saw your name, "Dude, wrong thread."

So, spill it on Sparta. What caused the explosion in posts there this morning?

[PurdueBrad]

Yeah, got absolutely railroaded by dubb. Probably never been as frustrated in a WW game as this time.

[Abe Sargent]

Yeah it looked like post-diarrhea

[PurdueBrad]

Your's truly. They wanted to lynch DT for not showing, I argued it was a really bad play simply because it's a dumb reason and I've NEVER seen it nab a wolf. So that brought heat on me from dubb when I put a vote on one of the people pushing the lynch.

[hoopsguy]

Can you give some details on how you were railroaded? Do you think that he is a wolf? Who do you think are the wolves in Sparta? This is information that might be helpful if/when some of us find ourselves down in Hades.

[Abe Sargent]

Damn dude

[Abe Sargent]

Of course, they migth have caught a wolf and you happen to be a MR and we wouldn't even know

[PurdueBrad]

Then I revealed as marathon, knowing it meant a more likely lynch but I thought anyone rational might use it as a means of elimination of other possible targets. Heinz was rational, dubb, saldana, and somebody else weren't. Although I'm wondering if there was a duke move now because Poli is in hell apparently.

[Passacaglia]

The Athenians decide to lynch EagleFan and send him to Hades. EagleFan was a villager!

It takes you a while to notice, but when you wake up, you realize that Schmidty is missing. Schmidty was a villager!

[Abe Sargent]

Well at least we won;t have to worry about the Schmidty issue tomorrow

[PurdueBrad]

Agreed Abe, certainly could be, but I was railroaded by then. My guess from there is that saldana is definitely wolf and dubb might be. But he sprayed crap all day and hoped to make it stick. If he's a villager, horrible day one play because it caused a lot of distraction and got a villager sent here, if he's a wolf, good move I guess.

[Abe Sargent]

Sounds like Lathum.


Cure Lathum in 3..2..1

[hoopsguy]

Guess Schmidty won't need to worry about either his pro-Sparta(n) tendencies or his non-vote.

Not a stunner on EF, just glad that it was a vanilla villager (assumption before going to look on Page 1) and not something like Historian.

[PurdueBrad]

Look, I'll lay it out. I'm the marathon runner and there are only two. One is bad, one isn't. It makes sense to vote me, no frustration from me there. The fact that I put it out there in the other village should've helped them narrow their search, it didn't. Here, I don't have that kind of luck/value so I get it if you make a move on me.

[Lathum]

Sounds like Lathum.


Cure Lathum in 3..2..1

huh?

[Abe Sargent]

Man, no one did that strategy quite like Blade. Insults inside of accusations of wolfdom. It was awesome in a nuclear war sort of way.

[USFLTecmo]

The way I see it, we've got a couple of different ways to go here. One's to trust EF's logic and go with Abe, or we could go for the 50/50 shot in PB. Hate to do that if he's good, but really now, it's a coin toss on him. That way too, we'll find out quickly if the information he's giving us now is legit.

[Lathum]

so PB, were you lynched or did you flee?

Was Poli lynched or night killed?

[Abe Sargent]

huh?

I was referring to this:

"he sprayed crap all day and hoped to make it stick"


from PB

[Lathum]

I was referring to this:

"he sprayed crap all day and hoped to make it stick"


from PB

I actually don't think I do that.

My style is more of grabbing onto one player like a Michael Vick pit bull and not letting go.

[PurdueBrad]

Yeah Abe, it's funny, having read previous games, that's what I was mildly reminded of. And frankly, I didn't argue well or even care to. His mind was made up, saldana immediately went with him and there the vote sat for four hours while everytime somebody popped in, dubb said: while you're here, vote pb, or the like. Heinz, if a wolf, played it well because he's got my trust for the game. He kept saying it doesn't look right.

Dubbs final comment: It's too bad we have to wait until the end to find out he's wolf.

Which, I'm not.

There was a minor push for war over there (2 people I think).

[hoopsguy]

PB, math certainly suggests that we do exactly that (take 50/50 shot) but there is no reason to start heading in that direction until everyone has reported back in the thread, see if there are night actions, etc.

[PurdueBrad]

Lathum doesn't really do that, I would agree.

The 50/50 shot makes sense. I am good, but you won't know.

I fled apparently. Poli might be nightkill, didn't think of that.

[Lathum]

I have to ask myself why Schmidty?

If I was a wolf I would want him around with the extra +1. Is it possible he is a wolf and the other wolves sent him down to Hades?

[Abe Sargent]

wARRING THIS SOON DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME.

[Abe Sargent]

Whoops, caps, sorry

[PurdueBrad]

I fled apparently. Poli might be nightkill, didn't think of that.

Hurts my ego some because it would've been nice to know that the duke believed me. Oh well. Got some reading to do here I guess. :popcorn:

[PurdueBrad]

Agreed Abe, most of us argued that it would be a fustercluck if we warred this soon.

[Abe Sargent]

I have to ask myself why Schmidty?

If I was a wolf I would want him around with the extra +1. Is it possible he is a wolf and the other wolves sent him down to Hades?

Yeah, but why grab that -1 vote daily as a wolf when the wolves are around to send you pms and stuff to get your vote in?

[Lathum]

Yeah, but why grab that -1 vote daily as a wolf when the wolves are around to send you pms and stuff to get your vote in?

he probably wasn't able to be online to get said PM.

Is it a horrible strategy to sacrifice one pf their own, who is going to have a +1 vote count regardless, on the ground early in hades?

I am also very confused about the fact that is a wolf kills another wolf at night they show up as a villager. Basicly that means everyone who was a night kill can't be trusted in Hades.

[PurdueBrad]

I guess for the wolves it would be a guaranteed kill because who would guard the no-show. Not sure though, if he's a wolf you could work around the +1 by vote coordination. If he's not, it's great to put extra pressure on a villager. Odd choice.

[Lathum]

=Should say to get a wolf on the ground early in Hades

[hoopsguy]

Are the wolves even allowed to send one of their own down to Hades? I do not recall seeing that in the rules.

Pass - were we supposed to learn about the allegiance of Schmidty? Or do we not learn that of the "night kills"?

[PurdueBrad]

We do not learn allegiances Hoops, from what I've picked up until their 'final' death.

[Lathum]

I wish I knew we wouldn't find out alligience upon night deaths.

I swore I would never play in another non reveal game again

[Lathum]

Are the wolves even allowed to send one of their own down to Hades? I do not recall seeing that in the rules.

Pass - were we supposed to learn about the allegiance of Schmidty? Or do we not learn that of the "night kills"?

Wolves in Athens or Sparta may choose one of their own to send to Hades – however, when this happens, they will be revealed as a villager.

from the main thread rules

[PurdueBrad]

Lathum, I was surprised to see you play once I learned that.

[Passacaglia]

Are the wolves even allowed to send one of their own down to Hades? I do not recall seeing that in the rules.

Pass - were we supposed to learn about the allegiance of Schmidty? Or do we not learn that of the "night kills"?

The way it will work is that if the wolves send one of their own down, they will show up as vanilla villager. Otherwise, the role will be revealed. I made an edit for Schmidty -- he now goes down as vanilla villager. Again, sorry about the confusion.

[Abe Sargent]

I wasn;t, cause I don;t remember Lathum ever saying it. I understand it in this case.

[Lathum]

Lathum, I was surprised to see you play once I learned that.

where does it say that?

And Pass just said in the main thread that they are revealed, I am confused

[Lathum]

The Athenians decide to lynch EagleFan and send him to Hades. EagleFan was a villager!

It takes you a while to notice, but when you wake up, you realize that Schmidty is missing. Schmidty was a villager!

thought I would report this, Pass edited it.

[PurdueBrad]

NM, we didn't think there were reveals upon death in Sparta. Maybe we were wrong. A few of us also misread the number of roles, thinking each city had a set.

[Lathum]

I wasn;t, cause I don;t remember Lathum ever saying it. I understand it in this case.

we had a game a while back where roles weren't revealed upon death. It was honestly the dumbest game I ever played in. It was basically 2 weeks of firing into the dark.

[hoopsguy]

OK, well at the very least we have all of our roles remaining in the city.

[Abe Sargent]

thought I would report this, Pass edited it.

Thanks!

[Passacaglia]

we had a game a while back where roles weren't revealed upon death. It was honestly the dumbest game I ever played in. It was basically 2 weeks of firing into the dark.

Not to mention, that game had a convert -- me. I joined the wolf team in like Day 7, having no idea I would be converted. Anyway, I wouldn't call this a non-reveal game, more like "limited reveal", to help prevent it from being too easy in Hades, so I'm hoping it won't be as crazy as that game was.

[hoopsguy]

PB, now that you get to read our thread - do you have any questions from Day 1?

[Abe Sargent]

I am also very confused about the fact that is a wolf kills another wolf at night they show up as a villager. Basicly that means everyone who was a night kill can't be trusted in Hades.

Unless they are revealeed with a role, since a killed wolf reveals as a roleless villager.

[MartinD]

Posting advance warning that I won't be around for most of tomorrow - will be checking in before I go to work (about 2am Eastern), and won't be able to get online until after tomorrow's deadline.

[Abe Sargent]

OK - THANKS

[MartinD]

The way I see it, we've got a couple of different ways to go here. One's to trust EF's logic and go with Abe, or we could go for the 50/50 shot in PB. Hate to do that if he's good, but really now, it's a coin toss on him. That way too, we'll find out quickly if the information he's giving us now is legit.

We would also find out something about the marathon runner who started in Athens by lynching PB - if PB is good, that means that one of the wolves who started in Athens is the other marathon runner, and if PB is bad, the Athens marathon runner is a good guy.

How much use that will be is probably debatable (given that we don't know who the second marathon runner is, and they can go for a wee jog to Sparta at a time of their choosing), but thought that it was worth posting.

[PurdueBrad]

PB, now that you get to read our thread - do you have any questions from Day 1?

Hoops, just got home. I'll read over and then double-check with you any questions.

[PurdueBrad]

It looks like Pass is forcing me to keep my promise of not voting for PB on day one. :D

Hi all.

That bastard! Good or not, I'm glad you killed him! :D

[Abe Sargent]

We would also find out something about the marathon runner who started in Athens by lynching PB - if PB is good, that means that one of the wolves who started in Athens is the other marathon runner, and if PB is bad, the Athens marathon runner is a good guy.

How much use that will be is probably debatable (given that we don't know who the second marathon runner is, and they can go for a wee jog to Sparta at a time of their choosing), but thought that it was worth posting.

I don't think we have the luxury to information shop right now. We could either be 6-2 or 5-3, so (or possibly 7-1 or 6-2 if Schmidty was a wolf). I'd rather not shop for info, but try to unearth wolves. Only reason I'd vote for is the basic 50/50 he has of being a wolf, not because we get good info from him, if that makes sense.

[PurdueBrad]

Ideally for me, I was hoping to be given a 'fresh' start and basically treated like another WW'er, given the chance to prove myself through play. But I realistically know that isn't going to happen.

A 50/50 shot on me is probably worth it. As for information, my second lynching, I believe, would be my last so you actually might get info. The problem is that it'll say I'm good, which doesn't help.

[PurdueBrad]

All the above refers to the fact that I'm the marathon, not that you're evil, unfair bastards.

[Chief Rum]

Athens Marathoner needs to leave for Sparta, right now if possible (not sure if it's an automatic flee, or if it's an action that only takes place at the deadline).

Doing so will tell us that Marathoner's allegiance--and thus PB's allegiance. And nabbing us a wolf, either now or down the road in Hades. And giving us a cleared villager.

If the Marathoner does not leave than we can probably figure PB is a cleared villager, and that the wolf Marathoner is in our midst, but not leaving, since then his role and identity would be revealed.

Further notes: Abe suggested even if we're winning the city, that we should abandon Athens and declare war on Sparta. The rules clearly state that would give the abandoned city to the wolves, so that is a wolf suggestion and makes Abe look pretty bad.

If PB is right that he was the lynch candidate, and he avoided the lynch by fleeing, than one of two things probably happens--one, no one is lynched, two, the second vote candidate gets lynched. If Poli was not #2 in votes (PB to confirm), then Poli has to have been night killed by the wolves (which doesn't clear him). He cannot have been duked--the duke (Ephor) was not yet elected there.

[Chief Rum]

The Marathoner fleeing would be the preferred way to determine PB's allegiance. This way we do not have to use a lynch on PB to prove his alelgiance.

[PurdueBrad]

Poli was not #2, I believe my vote and Heinz's put dubb at #2.

[PurdueBrad]

Big fan of CR right now.