Another ploy for Fantasy Football opinions

[Passacaglia]

Hey all,

The fantasy football leauge I'm in just had its draft on Saturday, so I figured I'd post the draft results, and ask what you guys thought of the teams. Both lurker and I are in the league, and she's not as football-savvy as the rest of the league (this is her 2nd season of fantasy football, and before that she hardly paid attention to the sport at all). So anyway, this is an attempt to a) show her that her team is okay, and b) show me that my team is okay. To keep things unbiased, I won't say which team belongs to whom until later.

Anyway, here are the rules.

Starting Positions: QB, WR, WR, WR, RB, RB, TE, WR/TE, K, D, D, DL, DL, DB, DB, Bench, Bench, Bench, Bench, Bench, Bench, Bench Statistical Categories (Offense): Completions (1)
Incomplete Passes (-1)
Passing Yards (50 yards per point)
Passing Touchdowns (6)
Interceptions (-3)
Rushing Yards (15 yards per point)
Rushing Touchdowns (6)
Receptions (.5)
Reception Yards (20 yards per point)
Reception Touchdowns (6)
Return Yards (50 yards per point)
Return Touchdowns (6)
2 Point Conversions (2)
Fumbles Lost (-3)
Statistical Categories (Kickers): Field Goals 0-19 Yards (3)
Field Goals 20-29 Yards (3)
Field Goals 30-39 Yards (3)
Field Goals 40-49 Yards (4)
Field Goals 50+ Yards (5)
Field Goals Missed 0-19 Yards (-3)
Field Goals Missed 20-29 Yards (-2)
Field Goals Missed 30-39 Yards (-1)
Field Goals Missed 40-49 Yards (0)
Field Goals Missed 50+ Yards (0)
Point After Attempt Made (1)
Point After Attempt Missed (-1)
Statistical Categories (Defense Players): Tackle Solo (0.5)
Tackle Assist (.25)
Sack (3)
Interception (3)
Fumble Force (1.5)
Fumble Recovery (3)
Touchdown (6)
Safety (2)
Pass Defended (1)
Block Kick (3)

[Passacaglia]

Here's the draft. Team AO got bumped to the bottom for the first few rounds, because they showed up late (per our rules). Other than that, it's a snake draft.

ROUND ONE
1)NYH: Gannon, QB OAK
2)BD: R WIlliams, RB MIA
3)FCS: Manning, QB IND
4)WFS: PHolmes, RB KC
5)PP: SAlexander RB SEA
6)SPS: LD Tomlinson RB SD
7)AG: Harrison WR IND
8)AO: Brooks QB NO

ROUND TWO
1)AG- portis rb den
2)SPS- DMcAlister RB NO
3)PP- T Barber, RB nyg
4)WFS- C Garner RB Oak
5)FCS- Faulk RB StL
6)BD- Owens Wr SF
7)NYH- Ward WR Pit
8)AO- T Green qb KC

ROUND THREE
1)NYH- THenry, RB Buf
2)BD- Bledsoe, QB Buf
3)FCS- Brady, QB NE
4)WFS-Pennington, QB NYJ
5)PP- McNair, QB Ten
6)SPS- Moss, Min
7)AG- George, RB Ten
8)AO- F Taylor, RB Jax

ROUND FOUR
1) AG Moulds, WR Buf
2) SPS Garcia, QB SF
3) PP- Price, WR Atl
4) WFS- Toomer, WR NYG
5) FCS- AGreen, RB GB
6) BD- WGreen, RB Cle
7) NYH- Horn, WR NO
8) AO- Staley, RB Phi

ROUND FIVE
1) NYH- Dillon, RB Cin
2) BD- Koren Robinson, WR SEA
3) FCS- Martin, RB NYJ
4) WFS- Hearst RB SF
5) PP- Burress WR Pit
6) SPS- Driver, WR GB
7) AG- Coles, WR Was
8) AO- JLewis, RB Bal

ROUND SIX
1) AG- Holt WR StL
2) SPS- Gonzalez TE KC
3) PP- Rice WR OAK
4) AO- Heap TE Bal
5) WFS- Franks TE GB
6) FCS- Shockey TE NYG
7) BD- Pollard TE Ind
8) NYH- Booker WR Chi

[Passacaglia]

1) NYH- E James RB Ind
2) BD- Keyshawn Johnson wr TB
3) FCS- R Smith WR Den
4) WFS- I Bruce WR StL
5) AO- R gardner WR Was
6) PP- Chad Johnson WR Cin
7) SPS- Urlacher DL Chi
8) AG- Chrebet WR NYJ

ROUND EIGHT
1) AG- S Davis RB Car
2) SPS- RLewis DL Bal
3) PP- M Bennett RB
4) AO- J Porter WR Oak
5) WFS- Mason WR Ten
6) FCS- Thrash WR Phi
7) BD- J Reed WR Buf
8) NYH- D Boston WR SD

ROUND NINE
1) NYH- Troy Brown WR NE
2) BD- T Hambrick RB DAL
3) FCS- C Conway WR NYJ
4) WFS- Tim Brown WR Oak
5) AO- T Streets WR SF
6) PP- T Taylor WR Bal
7) SPS- D Stallworth WR NO
8) AG- J Taylor DL Mia

ROUND TEN
1) AG- S Rice DL TB
2) SPS- R Williams DB Dal
3) PP- S Sharpe TE Den
4) AO- S Smith WR Car
5) WFS- R Woodson DB Oak
6) FCS- B Finneran WR Atl
7) BD- Q Morgan WR Cle
8) NYH- D Culpepper QB Min

Round ELEVEN
1) NYH- Miller TE Hou
2) BD- Plummer QB Den
3) FCS- K McCardell WR TB
4) WFS- Farve QB GB
5) AO- A Wilson LB Den
6) PP- D Freeney DL Ind
7) SPS- D Brooks LB TB
8) AG- Archuleta DB StL

ROUND TWELVE
1) AG- Mike Green DB Chi
2) SPS- J Porter DL Pit
3) PP- B Dawkins DB Phi
4) AO- L Schulters DB Ten
5) WFS- J Sharper DL Hou
6) FCS- E Barton DL Oak
7) BD- S Knight DB Mia
8) NYH- D Edwards DL SD

[Passacaglia]

RD 13
1) NYH- Fauria TE NE
2) BD- L Fletcher DL Buf
3) FCS- K Gbaja-Biamila DL GB
4) WFS- Pinkston WR Phi
5) AO- I Gold DL Den
6) PP- D Bly DB Det
7) SPS- M Brown DB Chi
8) AG- A Carter DL SF

RD 14
1) AG- C Chambers WR Mia
2) SPS- D McNabb QB Phi
3) PP- D Brees QB SD
4) AO- N Clements DB Buf
5) WFS- Tongue DB Sea
6) FCS- B Kelly DB TB
7) BD- K Bulluck DL Ten
8) NYH- Parrish DB SF

RD 15
1) NYH- A Smith RB NE
2) BD- E Holmes DL Det
3) FCS- A Crumpler TE Atl
4) WFS- K Brady TE Jax
5) AO- McMichael TE Mia
6) PP- Galloway WR Dal
7) SPS- Bradford WR Hou
8) AG- Canidate RB Was

RD 16
1) AG- Vick QB Atl
2) SPS- W Dunn RB Atl
3) PP- Vrabel DL Dal
4) AO- J Stewart RB Det
5) WFS- Feeley K Atl
6) FCS- Grammatica K TB
7) BD- R Wayne WR IND
8) NYH- Fields DL Car

RD 17
1) NYH- Maslowski DL KC
2) BD- E Reed DB Bal
3) FCS- Colvin DL NE
4) WFS- A Glenn DB Hou
5) AO- C Rogers WR Det
6) PP- D O'Neal DB Den
7) SPS- A Lelie WR Den
8) AG- BJohnson QB TB

RD 18
1) AG- H Douglas DL Jax
2) SPS- R Barber DB TB
3) PP- Eaton DL Sea
4) AO- C Brown DL sea
5) WFS- M Rucker DL Car
6) FCS- M Strahan DL NYG
7) BD- C Claibourne DL Min
8) NYH- K Brooking DL Atl

[Passacaglia]

RD 19
1) NYH- J Kearse DL Ten
2) BD- Janikowski K Oak
3) FCS- Thomas DB NO
4) WFS- L Little DL StL
5) AO- B Marion DB MIA
6) PP- Elam K Den
7) SPS- Peppers DL Car
8) AG- Cash DB Det

RD 20
1) AG- J Smith WR Jax
2) SPS- D Jackson WR Sea
3) PP- M Shipp RB Ari
4) AO- Akers K Phi
5) WFS- Kearney DL Atl
6) FCS- M Minter DB Car
7) BD- A Thomas RB Chi
8) NYH- R McNeil DB SD

RD 21
1) NYH- B Taylor DB Phi
2) DB- Roland Williams TE Oak
3) FCS- P Boulware DL Bal
4) WFS- A Molden DB Was
5) AO- Z Thomas DL Mia
6) PP- P Warrick WR Cin
7) SPS- Bettis RB Pit
8) AG- Conwell TE NO

RD 22
1) AG- Vanderjagt K Ind
2) SPS- Longwell K GB
3) PP- Buchannon DB Oak
4) AO- McCaffery WR Den
5) WFS- Carney K NO
6) FCS- Vinatieri K NE
7) BD- J Stevens TE Sea
8) NYH- Hollis K NYG

[TroyF]

Kind of a strange draft. LT #6? Portis and Faulk in round 2? Moss near the end of round 3? Vrabel in round 16? How about all the defensive players picked ahead of Peppers? Bubba Franks over Jeremy Shockey? Yikes.

Interesting to say the least. You'll have to post full teams for me to evaluate. (I'm lazy, I don't feel like writing down everyone's team) :) Some good picks with the question marks too.

TroyF

[Passacaglia]

I would have posted it team by team, but our commish hasn't posted the results. One coach posted the draft round by round, so that's all I have to go by.

[lurker]

Yeah, what's taking the commish so long?

And I am so going to screw up this year. When I saw "LT" I thought it was some position I didn't know about until I saw the #6 after. Crap.

[TroyF]

OK, just quickly glancing at things: I have to like what SPS did. Lets list the team:

1) Tomlinson
2) McCallister
3) Moss
4) Garcia
5) Driver
6) Tony Gonzales
7) Urlacher
8) Ray Lewis
9) Stallworth
10) Roy Williams
11) Derrick Brooks
12) Joey Porter
13) Mike Brown
14) Donovan McNabb (who is actually better than his QB picked 10 rounds earlier)
15) Cory Bradford
16) Warrick Dunn
17) Lelie (an absolute steal in this spot)
18) Rhonde Barber
19) Julius Peppers
20) Darrel Jackson
21) Jerome Bettis
22) Ryan Longwell

----------------------------------------------

Out of the 22 players this person drafted, I think he had SUPER value on at least 4 of those picks. (Tomlinson, Moss, McNabb, Lelie)

Just at a glance, I can't see a lot of instances where this person "reached".

I'd have to look at the total rosters, but I think I'd be penciling this guy in as my preseason favorite.

TroyF

[Ryche]

I'd rank AG first. Whoever it was held out on drafting a QB but still got decent ones to go with the best receiver and perhaps the best running back. Tell the person to swing a trade of Holt for Culpepper from NYH and they win the league.

AG
1 WR Harrison
2 RB Portis
3 RB George
4 WR Moulds
5 WR Coles
6 WR Holt
7 WR Chrebet
8 RB Davis
9 DL Taylor
16 QB Vick
18 QB Johnson

[MIJB#19]

Hey Passa, how's this?

tm plyr player pos team
AG Vick QB Atl
AG B Johnson QB TB
AG portis rb den
AG George RB Ten
AG S Davis RB Car
AG Canidate RB Was
AG Conwell TE NO
AG Harrison WR IND
AG Moulds WR Buf
AG Coles WR Was
AG Holt WR StL
AG Chrebet WR NYJ
AG C Chambers WR Mia
AG J Smith WR Jax
AG Vanderjagt K Ind
AG J Taylor DL Mia
AG S Rice DL TB
AG A Carter DL SF
AG H Douglas DL Jax
AG Archuleta DB StL
AG Mike Green DB Chi
AG Cash DB Det

AO Brooks QB NO
AO T Green qb KC
AO F Taylor RB Jax
AO Staley RB Phi
AO J Lewis RB Bal
AO J Stewart RB Det
AO Heap TE Bal
AO McMichael TE Mia
AO R gardner WR Was
AO J Porter WR Oak
AO T Streets WR SF
AO S Smith WR Car
AO C Rogers WR Det
AO McCaffery WR Den
AO Akers K Phi
AO I Gold DL Den
AO C Brown DL sea
AO Z Thomas DL Mia
AO A Wilson LB Den
AO L Schulters DB Ten
AO N Clements DB Buf
AO B Marion DB MIA

BD Bledsoe QB Buf
BD Plummer QB Den
BD R WIlliams RB MIA
BD W Green RB Cle
BD T Hambrick RB DAL
BD A Thomas RB Chi
BD Pollard TE Ind
BD J Stevens TE Sea
BD Owens Wr SF
BD Koren Robinson WR SEA
BD Keyshawn Johnson wr TB
BD J Reed WR Buf
BD Q Morgan WR Cle
BD R Wayne WR IND
BD Janikowski K Oak
BD L Fletcher DL Buf
BD K Bulluck DL Ten
BD E Holmes DL Det
BD C Claibourne DL Min
BD S Knight DB Mia
BD E Reed DB Bal
BD Roland Williams TE Oak

FCS Manning QB IND
FCS Brady QB NE
FCS Faulk RB StL
FCS A Green RB GB
FCS Martin RB NYJ
FCS Shockey TE NYG
FCS A Crumpler TE Atl
FCS R Smith WR Den
FCS Thrash WR Phi
FCS C Conway WR NYJ
FCS B Finneran WR Atl
FCS K McCardell WR TB
FCS Grammatica K TB
FCS Vinatieri K NE
FCS E Barton DL Oak
FCS K Gbaja-Biamila DL GB
FCS Colvin DL NE
FCS M Strahan DL NYG
FCS P Boulware DL Bal
FCS B Kelly DB TB
FCS Thomas DB NO
FCS M Minter DB Car

NYH Gannon QB OAK
NYH D Culpepper QB Min
NYH T Henry RB Buf
NYH Dillon RB Cin
NYH E James RB Ind
NYH A Smith RB NE
NYH Miller TE Hou
NYH Fauria TE NE
NYH Ward WR Pit
NYH Horn WR NO
NYH Booker WR Chi
NYH D Boston WR SD
NYH Troy Brown WR NE
NYH Hollis K NYG
NYH D Edwards DL SD
NYH Fields DL Car
NYH Maslowski DL KC
NYH K Brooking DL Atl
NYH J Kearse DL Ten
NYH Parrish DB SF
NYH R McNeil DB SD
NYH B Taylor DB Phi

PP McNair QB Ten
PP D Brees QB SD
PP S Alexander RB SEA
PP T Barber RB nyg
PP M Bennett RB Min
PP M Shipp RB Ari
PP S Sharpe TE Den
PP Price WR Atl
PP Burress WR Pit
PP Rice WR OAK
PP Chad Johnson WR Cin
PP T Taylor WR Bal
PP Galloway WR Dal
PP P Warrick WR Cin
PP Elam K Den
PP D Freeney DL Ind
PP Vrabel DL Dal
PP Eaton DL Sea
PP B Dawkins DB Phi
PP D Bly DB Det
PP D O'Neal DB Den
PP Buchannon DB Oak

SPS Garcia QB SF
SPS D McNabb QB Phi
SPS LD Tomlinson RB SD
SPS D McAlister RB NO
SPS W Dunn RB Atl
SPS Bettis RB Pit
SPS Gonzalez TE KC
SPS Moss Min
SPS Driver WR GB
SPS D Stallworth WR NO
SPS Bradford WR Hou
SPS A Lelie WR Den
SPS D Jackson WR Sea
SPS Longwell K GB
SPS Urlacher DL Chi
SPS RLewis DL Bal
SPS J Porter DL Pit
SPS Peppers DL Car
SPS D Brooks LB TB
SPS R Williams DB Dal
SPS M Brown DB Chi
SPS R Barber DB TB

WFS Pennington QB NYJ
WFS Farve QB GB
WFS PHolmes RB KC
WFS C Garner RB Oak
WFS Hearst RB SF
WFS Franks TE GB
WFS K Brady TE Jax
WFS Toomer WR NYG
WFS I Bruce WR StL
WFS Mason WR Ten
WFS Tim Brown WR Oak
WFS Pinkston WR Phi
WFS Feeley K Atl
WFS Carney K NO
WFS J Sharper DL Hou
WFS M Rucker DL Car
WFS L Little DL StL
WFS Kearney DL Atl
WFS R Woodson DB Oak
WFS Tongue DB Sea
WFS A Glenn DB Hou
WFS A Molden DB Was

EDIT - Just adjusting the spacing slightly to make it easier to read - Ryan S

[Samdari]

I am simply stunned at McNabb going in the 14th round.

All kinds of funky stuff here. NYH screwing up by taking Hines Ward in the 2nd round when Culpepper was available and then getting Culpepper in the 10th.

I really cannot comprehend this. Culpepper should be the #1 QB in a league that balances rushing and passing for QBs, especially if it is a single season draft. McNabb should be no worse than 5th, and Garcia should be drafted as a backup QB this year.

I like BD's team. The RB/WR group of Williams, Green, Owens and Robinson are better than anyone else has. I also like his defense, as he is only starting studs, many (Bulluck, Holmes, Claiborne) who do not get the recognition they deserve.

[VPI97]

McNabb in the 14th round??? WTF???

[QuikSand]

That's a league full of children, right? Or is it a charity thing you're running at a local old age home? There's got to be a good explanation for this...

[Bee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
That's a league full of children, right? Or is it a charity thing you're running at a local old age home? There's got to be a good explanation for this...

I can't think of one.

Edit: If you play for money can I take part next year?

[Passacaglia]

Gee, thanks for ripping on the league, guys. I was kind of hoping for opinions along the lines of rankings. For those that actually did say something involving which teams you like more, thank you, but could you possibly rank the teams in order as well? That would be nice, since a lot of the feedback we're getting isn't actually worthwhile.

[lurker]

Ah, whatever. I made a spreadsheet that put in everyone's stats from last year and then calculated the number of points they would have gotten total over the season. According to that, there is no way Culpepper and McNabb should have been taken highly. Probably people haven't realized that we're getting penalized for incomplete passes. And the quarterbacks weren't even what made the biggest difference last year based on this system. It was pretty much the running backs and wide receivers.

[cuervo72]

That's including QB's rushing yards and TDs?

[cuervo72]

Dola - did you also pro-rate McNabb's stats for 16 games?

[lurker]

The spreadsheet? Yeah. The quarterback with the most number of points was Rich Gannon (3 RBs were ahead of him) followed by a ton of more RBs and WRs, then Peyton Manning.

No, I didn't prorate the stats -- I just threw it together to get a rough idea.

[TroyF]

As close as I can figure things, Rich Gannon averaged a little over 29 points per week in your system. Mcnabb came in right at 26 points per week. (remember, you have to factor in he didn't play in 6 games)

So that three point difference made had one going at #1 and the other in the 14th round?
How about Peyton Manning, the #3 pick in the draft? He finished averaging less points than did McNabb on a per week basis.

I can't see any reason for McNabb going in the 14th round in any league.

As far as ranking the teams?

I'll just list some quick thoughts:

AG - One of the best teams in the league. Needs a QB until Vick gets back, but has loads of talent
AO - Love a couple of the defensive players and Heap. Dislike the running backs. I wouldn't be happy with that team.
BD - I like Bledsoe and Williams. There just isn't a lot of depth here though. If the big 2RB's and WR's stay healthy, it could be ok. Anyone gets hurts, it's BIG trouble.
FCS - Great backfield, not so great WR's. I don't like the DB's either. If any of the WR surprise, this team could be ok.
NYH - A very solid team until you get to the defense. Utterly horrible there. Fields is out for the year, McNeil has been released. . . Brooking can only do so much.
PP - Michael Bennett is likely gone for the year. I love the WR. I hate the defense beyond Dwight Freeney.
SPS - Still gets my vote as best draft. Terrific defense will score every week. Deep, big play WR core. Good RB's.
WFS - I don't like the team. Pennington is done. I can't understand Franks over Shockey (I don't care how important TD's are, Shockey should outpoint Franks, especially now that the Packers have added Wesely Walls) No depth at any position IMO.

TroyF

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
Gee, thanks for ripping on the league, guys. I was kind of hoping for opinions along the lines of rankings. For those that actually did say something involving which teams you like more, thank you, but could you possibly rank the teams in order as well? That would be nice, since a lot of the feedback we're getting isn't actually worthwhile.

It's a tall order to post the specifics of a league like this that is obviously vastly different from those that most people are familiar with, and hope that you'll get the level of understanding that you are looking for here. Kudos to Troy and those who are trying to give constructive feedback.


All I see is a league where there are a lot of picks that are very, very tough to make any sense of... unless you assume (like many have) that the teams picking were just working off a list of numbers from last seaon, without any modification for updated playing time or time missed last season.

I have yet to see any fantasy system that includes individual defensive players where it makes any degree of sense to draft them anywhere but the very bottom of the draft, right down with kickers. The fact that 50 or more defensive players went ahead of Donovan McNabb (as the obvious example) tells me that there's something very weird at work here.

To fully comprehend your whole system of rules, I'd certainly need to invest a good deal of time. I'm sure that the -1 for incomplete passes is a big deal, and favors those QBs in short-passing offenses. But honestly now... how can any fantasy player look at that draft and not cry foul?

[Passacaglia]

If we're just talking about McNabb, you guys are right. I think almost everyone DID simply look at last year's stats, and didn't do much with them, whether it was because of restrictions due to time or interest. I know that that's what I did with QBs, at least (I went into it more with RBs and WRs). When McNabb was taken, I was shocked, realizing I had completely forgotten about him. As for examples of other players, I don't see any other good examples of someone who fell too far down. As for players being drafted too soon...well, I'll assume that I didn't draft any of them! :)

I wasn't necessarily expecting a perfect understanding of this league with different rules. I posted them to help people get an idea of what the league was like. I did not, however, think that this lack of understanding would lead to riducle.

[lurker]

Yeah, I guess I really should have accounted for the number of games everyone played.

I'm just happy nobody pointed out one specific team and said "THAT's the one picked by the person that knows nothing about football!" :)

[Bee]

Originally posted by lurker
Yeah, I guess I really should have accounted for the number of games everyone played.

I'm just happy nobody pointed out one specific team and said "THAT's the one picked by the person that knows nothing about football!" :)

We wouldn't do that to Passacaglia. ;)

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
If we're just talking about McNabb, you guys are right. I think almost everyone DID simply look at last year's stats, and didn't do much with them, whether it was because of restrictions due to time or interest. I know that that's what I did with QBs, at least (I went into it more with RBs and WRs). When McNabb was taken, I was shocked, realizing I had completely forgotten about him. As for examples of other players, I don't see any other good examples of someone who fell too far down. As for players being drafted too soon...well, I'll assume that I didn't draft any of them! :)

I wasn't necessarily expecting a perfect understanding of this league with different rules. I posted them to help people get an idea of what the league was like. I did not, however, think that this lack of understanding would lead to riducle.

I'm not just talking about McNabb Pasc. Peppers getting drafted below guys like Vrabel, Barten and Fields?

The leagues we are in all differ in their intensity and how much the opinions in the room are. This forum has some VERY intense fantasy football players (I should know, I went up against some of these guys in not only a fantasy draft, but the all time team challenge as well) When these type of fantasy players see what they perceive to be major errors, they pounce. I'm not insulting your league in the least. I hope you have a lot of fun with it. :) I just see some things that I feel are out of place.

TroyF

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Passacaglia
I did not, however, think that this lack of understanding would lead to riducle.

It's not the rules, nor a lack of understanding thereof, that led to ridicule, it's the picks. Your league, for whatever reason, made a lot of wholesale poor decisions that just jump off the page (screen).

[QuikSand]

Not trying to be needlessly harsh, just defending those who did the reasonable thing here -- saw the draft printed out, in order, pick by pick, and made comments about it.

If I'm going to assess the quality of the teams without getting a complete understanding of the rules, I'll do what I always do:

(in deliberate order)
-how good are the starting running backs?
-how good are the QBs and WRs?
-any major standouts anywhere else on the roster?
-how good are the reserve running backs?
-any particularly interesting late-round picks worth noting?

It takes a very screwed-up scoring system to get me to depart from that analysis, more or less, as the best way to assess the quality of a fantasy football team.


If your league insists on filling in all the individual defensive players that early, they are simply not understanding the most essential concepts of fantasy football, and/or falling prey to a lemming mentality (and just doing things because other people are doing those things). In either case... they deserve what's coming.

Good luck - hope both of you mange to crush the league and that lurker ekes it out in the title game.

[thirdandlong]

Originally posted by QuikSand


(in deliberate order)
-how good are the starting running backs?
-how good are the QBs and WRs?
-any major standouts anywhere else on the roster?
-how good are the reserve running backs?
-any particularly interesting late-round picks worth noting?



This is pretty much how I look at a team. One point we may differ on is how early to go for defense. In our league tackles are worth 2, assists 1, sacks 4, interceptions 5, defensive TDs 7. Analysis of scoring over our league's 18 years shows that RB is the highest scoring position, followed by QB, then Linebacker, Then WR. So my strategy has always been to go after a RB or two immediately. The only exception to this is when the RBs have been prematurely thinned, and a standout QB or WR is available. Exception noted, when I have done this my team has nearly unilaterally sucked.

[MIJB#19]

But isn't highscoring not the main target in ffl? (uh-oh, double denial)
Isn't it the difference between your team and the others that counts most, independannt wheter it's a head-to-head style or a weekly-score-add-all?
I'd rather have a TE score 10p/week with all starting TE's avering 3p/week, the a WR averaging 15p/week were the WR average is 10pt/week.

Lurker made avalid point though, the scoring system makes a lot of difference. That's what makes it really hard to compare one Culpepper-Shaun Alexander-Keyshawn Johnson combo to another.
Culpepper is a top QB in leagues that favour "mobile" quarterbacks, but he's average in leagues that penelize interceptions very hard and hardly rewards rushing.
Shaun Alexander has yet to proove being a consistent RB, so in a head-to-head league he's less valuable then the add-it-all systems, where his 80 points aginst the Cardinals make a bigger difference.
Keyshawn Johnson is a consistent scorer in yardage based systems, but there were TDs are all that matters, he's yet to do well in Tampa Bay.

[QuikSand]

You can do all the analysis you want over what positions score the highest... that doesn't answer the real questions.

The two things that you should pay for in a draft are (1) improvement over replacement value, and (2) predictability in those results.

Understanding that statement fully is really all you need.


Quality starting RBs are a top priority for exactly these reasons-- they tend to get scarce in a typical draft setup, top players are relatively predictable in their performance, and the diffrence between having a solid starter and havign to use a guy you picked up off the waiver wire (or in the late rounds of most drafts) is vast. Get a top RB: improvement over replacment value is high, predictability of results is high. Done.

Quality QBs and WRs, in most systems, are helpful - but the positions simply are not as scarce - meaning that their improvement over replacement value is lessened. WR, especially, is also a less predictable position week to week in general. In most fantasy leagues (abotu 12 teams, each startign 1 QB and 2-3 WR) there will be capable (but not outstanding) QBs and WRs available all year long for nothing but a transaction. Your QBs are only worth somethign to the degree that they are reliably better than those guys.

I agree with Matthijs - top-flight TEs are valuable, especially because in most leagues their improvement over replaceent value is very low. A TE who posts 1,000 yards and 10 TDs is worth much, much more than a WR who does the same (in standard systems requiring a TE for each starting roster).


Defenses and kickers tend to suffer on the reliability side. Some excellent defenses will tend to generate strong totals, and it's tempting to think that due to this they should be early selections. However, there is a great deal more uncertainty there than with a position like RB or even QB... look at the teams predicted to be strong fantasy defenses for last year, and look who ended up as the top-ranked ones. The list will have many more and more serious discrepancies than you'll evenr expect at QB or RB... even if there are rampant injuries and PT follies there. Defenses simply are volatile year to year, even week to week. nd the fact that they are usually plentiful makes them a geenrally less valuable pick.

Individual defensive players are even more extreme. Yes, certain players tend to put up big tackle totals, and that can be fairly predictable. But the sheer huge number of individual defensive players mean that other than true standouts, there's little point of making meaningful investments there. There are something like 100 starting linebackers in the NFL... at any point, in ppractically any league, there have to be a number of pretty decent guys available for nothing. Unless your guy is a significant and predictabl improvement over those guys, lay off and take what's left at the end. It's as simple as that.

Kickers are notoriously unpredictble year to year, and are also genrally plentiful. Same principle applies here as with defenses - as a rule just wait and take what's left.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by lurker
Ah, whatever. I made a spreadsheet that put in everyone's stats from last year and then calculated the number of points they would have gotten total over the season. According to that, there is no way Culpepper and McNabb should have been taken highly. Probably people haven't realized that we're getting penalized for incomplete passes. And the quarterbacks weren't even what made the biggest difference last year based on this system. It was pretty much the running backs and wide receivers.

I see your point about Culpepper. But, Troy has a point about the #3 overall pick and a 14th rounder.

That said, to be even fair, now we will ridicule one of Troy's statements:

AG - One of the best teams in the league. Needs a QB until Vick gets back, but has loads of talent

Nice job checking the math on McNabb and Manning, but maybe you should have on Vick. The current backup on the team is B Johnson, who was actually far better than Vick under this system last season. Vick scored 271 points in 15 starts, and Johnson scored 289 in 13. Looks like the league did a nice job not taking Vick early. This system obviously values passing way over rushing, so Vick becomes an average (at best) QB.

But, Passacaglia, it is a bit much to ask us to learn a complete new system, and evaluate a complete league (with larger than normal rosters) based on it. That's quite a bit more involved than the typical "do you like this guy or that guy" fantasy football question.

[thirdandlong]

I am pretty much in agreement with what you say QS. About the only place we differ in our team selection is that I do see value in snagging a top flight defensive player over a third flight wide receiver. I generally end up three running backs after four picks. Certainly no less than two backs. The odd player being a WR or QB. I took Urlacher in last years draft with my fifth pick. I think that is the earliest I have ever taken a defensive player. I may have taken Bruce Smith as early in the past.

The one notable year I went for recievers and a quarterback over Running backs was back when Barry Sanders was a rookie. After locking up a good solid QB and pair of WRs I took 4 straight running backs. I ended up taking Dalton Hilliard as my third back, and rookie Barry Sanders as my fourth. The force was with me, as those two turned out to be all everything. Hilliard a career journeyman became a one man show in New Orleans, and was the best back in the league that year. One thing to note is I can't remember who my first two backs were.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by thirdandlong
I am pretty much in agreement with what you say QS. About the only place we differ in our team selection is that I do see value in snagging a top flight defensive player over a third flight wide receiver. I generally end up three running backs after four picks. Certainly no less than two backs. The odd player being a WR or QB. I took Urlacher in last years draft with my fifth pick. I think that is the earliest I have ever taken a defensive player. I may have taken Bruce Smith as early in the past.

The one notable year I went for recievers and a quarterback over Running backs was back when Barry Sanders was a rookie. After locking up a good solid QB and pair of WRs I took 4 straight running backs. I ended up taking Dalton Hilliard as my third back, and rookie Barry Sanders as my fourth. The force was with me, as those two turned out to be all everything. Hilliard a career journeyman became a one man show in New Orleans, and was the best back in the league that year. One thing to note is I can't remember who my first two backs were.

Again - I agree that a true standout among individual defensive players make sense - Urlacher might well be one of the few players that fits that mold. My argument is that once the real standouts are gone, don't fret because there are plenty of "decent guys" out there. I think we're in agreement there.


I rememebr Dalton Hilliard powering my best friend to a fantasy league championship that year... he really did come from nowhere. About 1988, right?

[thirdandlong]

Yes 1989. My first league championship. I won our superbowl 145-144, in what was the highest scoring championship game until just a couple of years ago. As Luck would have it the victory came at the expense of very best friend, and have lorded it over him ever since.

My favorite fantasy football fact. In the closing seconds of the second quarter Joe Montana through an 8 yard pass to the tight end, Jon Hand I believe, who had the ball stripped from him by a defensive back. It was the last pass Joe would throw that regular season, as some upstart named Young would mop up the second half. It was initially ruled a completion, but over half time the official scorer over ruled that, and declared it an interception. This had two monumental results, first it stripped Montana of the single season completion percentage record(just one incompletion). Secondly, since interceptions were worth negative two points at the time, and having noted my single point victory, it has given me braggin rights ever since.

[MIJB#19]

After only 3 years of experience in fantasy football in only leagues with at least 8 FOFCers involved, I am amazed to see I build up the same idea on positions as QuikSand posted.

I agree that WRs can be picked up any week of the year, with 2 starters at 32 teams and at least 8 #3WRs having decent value, there is a market of 70 WRs for 12 teams.
That is 7 WR per team.

The RB market for 2 starters is very slim, just 32 starters of which always up to 8 are either gambles (Zereoue or Bettis?) or will not score a lot.
Add a couple of important backups (Bettis/Zereoue, Barlow/Hearst, Rams #2 RB0 and you have 40 RBs for 12 teams.
That is less then 4 RB per team.

The QB market is slim, though with just 1 starter per team and 32 QB starting in the NFL, each team can have 3 QB and there still are 2 starters left, not to mention every backup is still free to pickup.

This year, I drafted in our 12-team league as follows (drafting #5 in odd rounds and #8 in even rounds):
1 RB Marshall Faulk (drating #5 ment I had a shot at getting a top5 RB)
2 TE Shockey (shocked by the rib injury, I think he's a guy that makes a difference in a 12-team must start 1 TE league)
3 RB William Green (call it a steal, but there are always names to slip)
4 tm Buccaneers (a huge gamble I think, but if the Bucs can get the weekly 5pt advantage, it's worth it)
5 RB Bettis (the day before he was named #2, yet there were no other notable RBs left)
6 QB Pennington (pre-injury)
7 QB Ramsey (pre Pennington injury)
8 RB Gordon (Faulk insurance policy, I figured he'd not last past round 10)
9 WR Terry Glenn
10 WR Kennison
11 WR Darrell Jackson
12 QB Jon Kitna (with Pennington out and about 28 starting QBs taken, I had to pick either Testaverde, Kordell Stewart, David Carr or Kitna; in the end Stewart might score better as a rushing TD scorer)
13
14
15
16

I picked Kitna higher then projected, but with Pennington out, I decided not to wait for round 14 or 15 and seeing others picking him as their #3 QB.
With the Shockey and Buccaneers combo, I have a problem in week 4, when both have a bye week.
This caused me not to pick any other player with a bye in week 4 (Dolphins, Giants, Seahawks, Buccaneers) except Darrell Jackson.
I still need a K, a RB for week 5, a WR and I think I'll pick a TE.
The K will be easy, about 24 K can score and nobody is going to pick 3 K.
A second TE might be troublesome, but getting a starter as a backup is easy.
Like I explained above, getting a good WR is a piece of cake too, I can even ignore the WRs from the 12 teams involved in bye weeks of my current WRs.
The RB might be really hard, but with no starters left, it'll be a backup anyway. Even the good #2s are gone (Dunn/Duckett, Hearst/Barlow, Zereoue/Bettis, Staley/Buckhalter, Faulk/Gordon, Pittman/Jones)

Perhaps I'm putting my chances in jeopardy, my opponents can read this, but I think with 4 rounds left to draft, there is not much to be won or lost anymore, I'm confident I can fill the 4 needs.
I concider this though as a strong league, noting down the draft results when it's over will probably show that.
The biggest steal this year might be Drew Brees, who I amazingly saw free and with Pennington out hoped to still land at #125, but then he got picked at #124. If Pennington wasn't injured I wouldn't have concidered picking Brees though.