What I Hate Most about FOF2004 [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Maple Leafs

11-18-2003, 03:53 PM

I don't mind having to open them each time. I do mind that the default placements for the windows require moving them. It it possible to fit everything neatly into one screen, so why doesn't the game do so (and let me resize or move them if necessary)?

Another annoyance: if you have windows overlapping, clicking on the "under" window doesn't necessarily move it to the front.

rlfreeze

11-18-2003, 03:56 PM

That does it for me. I am not buying this game. What went wrong Jim? Everything looked so promising.;)

Bonegavel

11-18-2003, 04:05 PM

This has been added to the list of "gimmies" I believe.

QuikSand

11-18-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Bonegavel
This has been added to the list of "gimmies" I believe.

I'm not sure what that means... but I wouldn't be certain that this will get fixed. I have a sense that this has been a very tough problem to tackle... the different versions of Windows being a contributing factor (though I don't understand how or why). I know that Jim wanted to make the window position "remembered" but it caused lots of trouble in beta.

Bonegavel

11-18-2003, 04:23 PM

This is listed in several threads (one is the Bug list, but it isn't a bug as you mention) so I called it a 'gimmie.'

The funny thing is that I thought this was a simple addition. Each window in every version of Windows can be fed information on where to be placed when it appears. Most times, it is simply written to the registry as coordinates for the upper left point. Depending on how Jim has over-ridden OnDraw(), the upper left of the screen is 0,0 (can change, but this is default I believe).

So, when the program exits, the code writes the last known coordinates for the dialog boxes to the registry, which are then read-back upon opening.

QuikSand

11-18-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Bonegavel
This is listed in several threads (one is the Bug list, but it isn't a bug as you mention) so I called it a 'gimmie.'

The funny thing is that I thought this was a simple addition. Each window in every version of Windows can be fed information on where to be placed when it appears. Most times, it is simply written to the registry as coordinates for the upper left point. Depending on how Jim has over-ridden OnDraw(), the upper left of the screen is 0,0 (can change, but this is default I believe).

So, when the program exits, the code writes the last known coordinates for the dialog boxes to the registry, which are then read-back upon opening.

You clearly know more about the programming than I do, and it certainly sounds easy enough to me. It may not be so, though.

Daimyo

11-18-2003, 05:01 PM

I think all these FOF complain threads are about the best advertising Jim can get for the game. If things like forgotten window position, incorrect QBR figured after 0 passing attempts, and slightly inflated passing stats are the chief complaints I take that to mean the rest of the game is tight. :)

yabanci

11-18-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Daimyo
I think all these FOF complain threads are about the best advertising Jim can get for the game. If things like forgotten window position, incorrect QBR figured after 0 passing attempts, and slightly inflated passing stats are the chief complaints I take that to mean the rest of the game is tight. :)

I sort of had that in mind when I titled the thread so strongly :)

FloridaFringe

11-18-2003, 05:16 PM

My thinking over the past couple of days has been leaning more on the above statement as well. My wallet may be opening up just after the first patch is released dependant on what is addressed and what still remains.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 06:37 PM

Have only one window open at a time. What's so hard about that?

yabanci

11-18-2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Have only one window open at a time. What's so hard about that?

So you're saying open the roster window, then when you want to go to the almanac I should close the roster window and open the almanac, then close the almanac and open the roster again, always keeping only one window open at a time? Seems like even more of a pain in the ass.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 06:45 PM

No, what I mean is that you really are only looking at one window at a time. When the game starts up, why should there be any windows open? You don't have to close any windows if you are viewing another, the one you are viewing temporarily will be closed anyways. You were talking about having many windows open at the same time and wanting to keep it that way. That doesn't make any sense.

yabanci

11-18-2003, 06:50 PM

Maybe I just wasn't being clear. By "windows" I mean the roster menu, the almanac, the simulation menu, the depth chart menus, the options menu, etc. A lot of us call them windows when menus may be the better word.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 06:55 PM

Ok, why have all of those menus open at the same time? Only open the Options Menu when you want to change something. Only have the Simulation Menu open when you are ready to simulate (or any other the othe submenus). If I assume that you access the Almanac Menu via the Roster menu, when you are done with the almanac, close it.

In part, this is part of my UI design preference when I develop. I prefer menu wizards and simplicity in layouts. No reason to clutter up the screen and wanting to keep it cluttered, imo.

yabanci

11-18-2003, 06:57 PM

No thanks, I prefer everything open for easy access.

ISiddiqui

11-18-2003, 07:10 PM

I agree... it's annoying that I have to reset all the menus when I restart the game.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Ok, why have all of those menus open at the same time? Only open the Options Menu when you want to change something. Only have the Simulation Menu open when you are ready to simulate (or any other the othe submenus). If I assume that you access the Almanac Menu via the Roster menu, when you are done with the almanac, close it.

In part, this is part of my UI design preference when I develop. I prefer menu wizards and simplicity in layouts. No reason to clutter up the screen and wanting to keep it cluttered, imo. Cluttered, schmuttered. Buc, you sound like my wife!!!

Everything is ONE click away when all the windows are on the desktop.

Flasch186

11-18-2003, 08:45 PM

Let me ask you this:

Is Jim going to slap passwords on the teams so that owners cant cheat by changing other peoples gameplans and uploading them to the Commish? If not it almost renders any competitve league unusable.

Commish
USFL

QuikSand

11-18-2003, 08:50 PM

I don't think there is any way for you, as the owner of the Cardinals, to change the game plan for the Texans and submit a revised game plan on their behalf. And if you did do this somehow, the commish would have to accept that extra game stage file from you (with a file name that would be a giveaway) on his end. I don't think the system is going to be foolproof, necessarily, but I don't think it's at all likely that any team will end up cheating quite as easily as you seem to suggest.

Celeval

11-18-2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Flasch186
Let me ask you this:

Is Jim going to slap passwords on the teams so that owners cant cheat by changing other peoples gameplans and uploading them to the Commish? If not it almost renders any competitve league unusable.

I think someone who's been playing indepth needs to answer this, but after some experimentation, I think I was wrong before.

There may be protection already built in via the league save/load. Has anyone done research into this yet?

I see how to add players to the league upon initialization, via the 'New Career', etc. How do you add a 'new' owner to the career, or change owners halfway through?

QuikSand

11-18-2003, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Ok, why have all of those menus open at the same time?

I know you pride yourself as the guru of sensibe user interface design... but if your preference for playing FOF is to open up the roster menu, click a roster option, close the roster menu, open up the almanac, review the almanac item, close the alamanc menu, open up the simulation menu, run the game simulation, close the simulation menu, open up the roster menu again, click a roster option, close the roster menu... ad nauseum... then I'm glad that you're not designing the games that I play.

If I were forced to play this game the way you apparently choose to, I would rescind my many previous comments expressing indifference over interface design issues, and I'd be joining the bellyaching faction saying the game's UI made no sense for me.

I just can't see how all those extra steps make the game more enjoyable.

Dutch

11-18-2003, 09:12 PM

....but you can enjoy the background image more! :)

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:17 PM

I think you guys are making too much of this. I can see only having one window/menu open at all times - Roster Commands. Let's take a look at the other ones.
Global Game Options - this is a one time deal (for the most part). No need to have this open at all times.
Roster Commands - each choice opens up a new window. View Rosters opens up the main roster screen. Most of the choices does not open a new window. The ones at the bottom do but they are basically single action screens (like Recommend and Cap List). All of the other Roster commands are basically the same way, just look at something and then Exit.
Depth Chart and Game Plan - only need to open when tweaking and none of those stay open. But for some, these series of screens are infrequently viewed.
Simulation Window - this is only opened during the pre-season and regular season and only for Simulate Games. All of the other screens are just look and exit types.
Email - probably a choice of whether to open and close, which is what I normally do with regular email programs. Only need to open when I have something to look at.
Almanac - okay, this I can see keeping up along with the Roster Commands. But still, each of these are your basic look and exit screens.
Multiplayer - no need to have open at all.

So, I see at most, two windows or menu systems: Roster Commands and Almanac. They take up perhaps 20% of the screen. FOF is a linear game (or at least how I like to play it). Things are done in order and there are appropriate screens for each task. If I am busy drafting, do I need to have the Simulation Window open? No. But if you want it open, just click on the icon and up it comes. Not too hard. When I'm done with the season and fully satisfied myself with the standings, no need to keep it open, is there?

Scoobz0202

11-18-2003, 09:19 PM

Just a little off-topic.. I hate the heartbreakers :(

Was 3-3. I am the Chiefs. Two games behind Denver.. 1 game behind Oakland.

Playing Oakland. Ahead by 7 going into 4th. Denver already lost this week. Could tie for second and be one behind first..

They came back. 12 seconds left. Tied up. Figured, what the hell.. lets put up a bomb... Intercepted by Woodson..for 65 yards and a TD. Game over.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
When I'm done with the season and fully satisfied myself with the standings, no need to keep it open, is there? There is also no need to close it either, when you're just going to re-open it.

You must be one of those people who makes his bed every day...

QuikSand

11-18-2003, 09:21 PM

Fair point - the way you play the game (with your rigid avoidance of anything that might be labeled as "micromanaging") it might well make sense to leave all the management tools (stuff that many of us use week to week) closed most of the time. I can see that, I guess. Not what I'd want to do, but for your style of play, not as serious an inconvenience.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Fair point - the way you play the game (with your rigid avoidance of anything that might be labeled as "micromanaging") it might well make sense to leave all the management tools (stuff that many of us use week to week) closed most of the time. I can see that, I guess. Not what I'd want to do, but for your style of play, not as serious an inconvenience. Good point. I use Roster, Simulation, E-Mail, Almanac and Depth/Game Plans pretty much every week.

Buc loves to talk about customization, but odd that he still is trying to get us to play the game his way...

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:33 PM

FOF is all about the off-season and getting through the regular season as quickly as possible. What game are you guys playing??? ;)

All I am saying before you two got your panties in a bunch is that I like the way it is now, it works for me. If Jim makes it so that you can have stickied windows, that's fine too. I see both ways as viable instead of insisting that one has to play with all of the windows open and cluttering up the screen.

SnowMan

11-18-2003, 09:34 PM

That's what I was gonna say. Isn't the point of this thread the ability to have it set the way I want it on startup, and the way Buc wants it on startup, and the way Jim wants it on startup, etc etc?

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:39 PM

But Jim didn't make it that way (I recall reading that it is difficult to do). I can see how it can be inconvenience for some but it's not that big of a deal the way it is now.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
FOF is all about the off-season and getting through the regular season as quickly as possible. What game are you guys playing??? ;)Again, you're trying to get me to play the game your way.

All I am saying before you two got your panties in a bunch is that I like the way it is now, it works for me....and what did this point have anything to do with others wanting stickied windows? You jumped in the thread with the brilliant idea of trying to get people to leave only one window open at a time.

If Jim makes it so that you can have stickied windows, that's fine too. I see both ways as viableYou're talking out of both sides of your mouth: "Have only one window open at a time. What's so hard about that?"--Buccaneer, 3 hours ago.

instead of insisting that one has to play with all of the windows open No. You're the one who insisted that others shouldn't play that way

and cluttering up the screen.Again, you sound like my wife.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:44 PM

Sigh.

SnowMan

11-18-2003, 09:46 PM

I like pie

Daimyo

11-18-2003, 09:50 PM

One window open at a time??

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:50 PM

Here's my desktop

http://home.att.net/~ouray2/wsb/bucdt.JPG

I think SkyDog's wife would approve. :)

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 09:54 PM

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/bendesktop.JPG

Bet I can get to my files faster than you can.

korme

11-18-2003, 09:56 PM

Bucc, you're crazy. :)

1) I use nearly every window every week of the season.

2) I like the season better than the offseason.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 09:58 PM

Good lord!!!! You guys needs some serious counseling. j/k :D

korme

11-18-2003, 09:59 PM

Wow SkyDog. Even I think that is a mess. :) Bucc, that's too clean.

I am a tweener.

SnowMan

11-18-2003, 09:59 PM

For the love of God, SkyDog......ever heard of keyboard shortcuts?

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 10:00 PM

That was the desktop of the desktop.

Here's the laptop:

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/desktop.JPG

Buc, you may not believe it, but I know where every single icon is, so I can get to everything I need, without any visual searching, in one click.

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by SnowMan
For the love of God, SkyDog......ever heard of keyboard shortcuts? Yes, but I have an off-the-charts visual memory actually, so this is the easiest way to do it.

Daimyo

11-18-2003, 10:03 PM

Well... its nice that the Front office football installer is right there in the middle for when you need it next! :)

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Daimyo
Well... its nice that the Front office football installer is right there in the middle for when you need it next! :) I tend to leave stuff up there for quite some time. :D It'll be there in a year or so, most likely. :D

yabanci

11-18-2003, 10:04 PM

skydog, those screenshots gave me a headache.

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 10:08 PM

This shows where my priorities are - besides internet and email and some Office stuff, it's all about games

http://home.att.net/~ouray2/wsb/start.jpg

Ben E Lou

11-18-2003, 10:10 PM

Wow!

Buccaneer

11-18-2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by SkyDog
Yes, but I have an off-the-charts visual memory actually, so this is the easiest way to do it.

And I've been known to have a one-track mind, hence, my arguments for keeping it simple.

SnowMan

11-18-2003, 10:16 PM

I have a tendency to forget where I put my mouse...give me a few minutes to find it, so I can click "send reply"......

Dutch

11-18-2003, 10:53 PM

??? Bucc, did you name your computer? And did you name it "Clark"?

Edit, disregard.......I was thinking about Win95 or something...profiles...I remember now.

cuervo72

11-19-2003, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
That was the desktop of the desktop.

Here's the laptop:

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/desktop.JPG

Buc, you may not believe it, but I know where every single icon is, so I can get to everything I need, without any visual searching, in one click.

Where have the Teletubbies gone?

(Bucc's reminds me I still haven't played Imperialism II! It's just sitting there...)

Maple Leafs

11-19-2003, 08:15 AM

Now that this has turned into a "post a pitcure of your desktop" thread, is anyone else waiting for the inevitable moment when someone posts one and forgets to delete the "shortcut to goatporn.org" icon?

Bee

11-19-2003, 08:23 AM

SkyDog.

There seems to be a problem. I keep clicking on that shortcut to the tpf.exe file, but nothing happens. You should report that to Arlie. ;)

Buccaneer

11-19-2003, 08:24 AM

I wasn't thinking (or responding) too well last night so I missed the most obvious reason of all: TCY. In that game, there are only two windows, email and conference. Everything else is accessible through tabbed controls or toolbar icons. Since each screen is modal, it is the only one you can have open at any time (i.e., you must close it before you open another. These would be screens like roster, almanac-like, depth charts, records, etc. To me that worked great and I don't recall hearing many complaints about it here. I understand the reason for not doing it that way in FOF (MFC bugs and too many choices) but still, I guess I got in the habit of operating FOF just like I do TCY.

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 08:30 AM

Regardless of need, every time I open the game i click on the toolbar icons for all the menus, and then pain-stakingly place them around the screen. I don't care if I don't use them, I feel naked without them all open. However, I use every dialog box each week.

I look at the roster the most.

I edit global options week to week.

I set game plans and depth chart between games.

I look at the standings in my conference weekly.

I look at email between games.

I look at stats after the game.

That is every dialog box and I use them between each game. If I had open and close them every time I would go insane.

Butter

11-19-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by cuervo72
Where have the Teletubbies gone?

Just to let you know that your constant children show references crack at least one person here up. :)

Ben E Lou

11-19-2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
To me that worked great and I don't recall hearing many complaints about it here.I'm not complaining about TCY. Heck, I logged many more hours on that than I did on FOF4 (but I'm guessing that FOF2K4 is gonna trump TCY). My only point is that the FOF4/2K4 interfaces work better for me than TCY. Everything is two clicks away in TCY. Everything is one click away with the two latest pro games, when the windows are open.

Buccaneer

11-19-2003, 08:35 AM

I understand.

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 08:46 AM

I think Cla..., I mean, Bucc is talking about 2 different things. Every window that opens from the main dialog boxes (the ones accesible from the toolbar and not the choices in those boxes) is modal. IOW, you can't have the roster open, and a depth chart screen open or any combo thereof.

We are talking about the toolbar button boxes that open and give you the myriad of choices. Those need to be sticky.

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 08:54 AM

dola,

here is what I mean.

This is what you get by default:

http://www.bonegavel.com/images/stuff/clusterf.gif

This is what I have to do every time I open the game.

http://www.bonegavel.com/images/stuff/goodlayout.gif

If you understood this part, I apologize. However, your one post above didn't seem to jive with this.

cuervo72

11-19-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Just to let you know that your constant children show references crack at least one person here up. :)

:)

Buccaneer

11-19-2003, 09:01 AM

Compare that with TCY (many of the same choices are there) and you can see the difference (or my personal preference). I do understand however but I tend to be more simplistic and single-tracked in my approach (hence the reason I showed my desktop). I wouldn't want (or need) all of these windows open at the same time but I do understand how other might. I just don't have a problem with the way Jim did it personally. Nothing more to it than that.

cuervo72

11-19-2003, 09:05 AM

Oh, and this is one of the reasons I liked the roster/depth charts in 1 window; I don't use all of the depth chart info every week, so it's ok if they are in a window where I have to scroll. Not having the separate window saves space for the e-mail field, which is just in the way as it stands now, overlapping 3 other windows. I know there was a lobby to break up the windows, but I prefer how it was in FOF4 (initially, anyway).

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 09:05 AM

Understood Bucc. I am more of a scatter brain and, as a result, I am always clicking on something like a bird pecking at bread crumbs in Trafalgar Square.

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 09:12 AM

Found a pic to show what I meant.

http://www.aisr.nl/images/events_01-02/field_trips/8th_london_2001/trafalgar_square.jpg

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 09:22 AM

http://www.bonegavel.com/images/stuff/fofvader.gif

Subby

11-19-2003, 09:46 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks, BG :)

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Subby
HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks, BG :)

Anytime. Hope Bucc sees this and, unlike Luke, does the right thing.

WSUCougar

11-19-2003, 03:31 PM

Get The Bonenator the ball, he's hot.

CubsFan915

11-19-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Flasch186
Let me ask you this:

Is Jim going to slap passwords on the teams so that owners cant cheat by changing other peoples gameplans and uploading them to the Commish? If not it almost renders any competitve league unusable.

Commish
USFL

Or make it so that the draft doesn't have to be run in one fell swoop for MP?

Bonegavel

11-19-2003, 04:48 PM

This is what I imagine Bucc's dream version to look like (minus darth vader, of course)

http://www.bonegavel.com/images/stuff/vader_bucc.gif

airitallout

11-20-2003, 08:46 PM

My question is this: Will we be able to offer Jeff George a contract?

JeeberD

04-08-2004, 01:57 AM

This is what you get by default:

This is what I have to do every time I open the game.

BG-

How To Set FOF2K4 Windows Permanently (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19027)

It ain't difficult to do. Here's how my FOF window is now permanently set...

http://home.comcast.net/~jeeberd/FOF2.jpg

If you want I can post the coordinates that I use to get that...