Bush went to Baghdad?

[mrskippy]

Damn!!! Amazing, how they pulled that off. NBC broke into the Macy's parade with a Special Report. Though, even with all the secrecy, it seems like a risky move to me.

[maximus]

Just goes to show you thatr our president isn't a sissy. lol :)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[mrskippy]

Hopefully his visit will boost troop morale a little.

[maximus]

Originally posted by maximus
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

..and that includes you too SkyDog. I still love ya bro. :)

[chinaski]

yea, he's just a sneaky lieing scum bag! :)

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Iraq is safe for Bush. They don't have pretzels there...

[Leonidas]

Bush has a knack for when he seems to be stumbling the most to pull something like this out of his butt. Lots of behind the scenes things going on in the Middle East that make this just the perfect time for such a thing. Al Qaeda and the opposition in Iraq really thought they were getting the upper hand in the media, then this. They have Al Jezeera showing vidoes of them supposedly shooting down planes around Baghdad, then all of the sudden AF1 jets into BIAP with no sweat. This has a much larger impact than most in the West will ever realize.

[CamEdwards]

I've been thinking the same thing, Leonidas. In fact, I just wrote (at another website)

"I don't think it was all a photo-op, but you'd have to be pretty stupid not to see the public relations benefit in this. The real question is... who was intended to see this message?

I'll argue that this has nothing to do with the election next year. You won't see Bush shaking hands of soldiers in Baghdad during a campaign commercial (unless it's one the Democrats run... kind of like the new John Kerry ad). No, this photo-op is another piece of the War on Terror. It's our answer to the audiotapes by Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

Think about it. This is the equivalent of Osama or Saddam showing up on the campus of Berkeley, a Wahabist mosque in Houston, or some similar "safe location" within the United States. Our president went into Baghdad and addressed the troops, saying:

'We did not charge hundreds of miles through the heart of Iraq, pay a bitter cost of casualties, defeat a ruthless dictator and liberate 25 million people only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins.

We will prevail. We will win because our cause is just. We will win because we will stay on the offensive.'

Great for the troops to hear. Even better for our enemies to hear the words of the president.

[Nyarlahotep]

Originally posted by chinaski
yea, he's just a sneaky lieing scum bag! :)

Isn't this a little redundant as we are speaking about a president?

[sabotai]

Anyone else get the feeling that Cam would be first in line to give Bush a handjob if he requested one?

;)

[kcchief19]

You saying he hasn't already?
:)

[portnoise]

It's amazing to me that there are people who don't see this for the blatant propaganda move it so clearly is.

[EagleFan]

Dear God, please give me the wisdom of portnoise...

[Dutch]

In Turkey, my family and I were under constant threat conditions, my kids were bused to school escorted by armed turkish soldiers, my car was checked for bombs at home and work facilities every single time I entered either, and I had the displeasure of being a couple of blocks away from a double bomb blast in Ankara that injured 17 Turks, some with loss limb, hearing, sight....just nasty tactics these terrorists use.

But that's just being in the enviroment, the terrorists in Turkey have generally targeted Turks, not Americans. But a visit from Colin Powell was uplifting to our mission there and provided us focus.

Now, the real deal in Iraq, we can complain about Bush all we want about him "vote grabbing again", but the importance of the President of the USA going to visit troops in Iraq is huge. It's uplifting. To a solider, a visit by the President is like a visit by the Pope to Catholics. It means alot. Let's remember that these guys are dying over there and tracking down terrorists in the nastiest parts of Iraq. They will be there on December 25th and January 1st as well.

So before we bag on our President for going and saying thanks, think about the troops who truly appreciate his gesture before you politicize it as worthless.

And with half the military being Democrats these days, it's not a partisan issue. I'm sure everybody was glad to see Senator Clinton visit the troops in Afghanistan as well. I'm sure somebody could say she's trying to raise her own popularity, but I think she probably is showing her support for the troops as a leader of our country. That should be as far as the investigation into motive should go. At least as far as I'm concerned anyway.

Happy Thankgiving everyone!

[Anthony]

are you kidding me portnoise. i'm the last one to say"YAY! let's go Bush!", but this was very necessary and whatever it aimed to pull off it accomplished. i don't condone us being in Iraq, but even when i woke up and saw him in Iraq i was impressed.

he's lots of things, but he's no coward. he has a great way of pulling off these things every once in a while. the last time i felt proud to have Bush as our president was during the World Series 2 years ago after 9/11 when he threw out the first pitch. sure, he was packing some major bullet-proofing under his jacket, but what he did was so inspriring.

let the terrorists say what they will - but our president just barged into their country to motivate our troops on our nations' most important holiday outside of July 4th. it says a lot, even if it was just him giving his tired old "we'll stay the course" routine.

[Ben E Lou]

I wonder if the DE-moralizing effect this could have on the resistance fighters/terrorists ("Damn, we've been doing everything we can, and Bush himself shows up and says they won't back out.") will be even greater than the morale boost for our troops. Like him or not, (and lately I've been rather displeased over his general over-governmentalization and the political posturing of the senior prescription debacle,) this was probably as stunning, brilliant and gutsy of a move that we've seen out of a President in our life time.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I wonder if the DE-moralizing effect this could have on the resistance fighters/terrorists ("Damn, we've been doing everything we can, and Bush himself shows up and says they won't back out.") will be even greater than the morale boost for our troops. Like him or not, (and lately I've been rather displeased over his general over-governmentalization and the political posturing of the senior prescription debacle,) this was probably as stunning, brilliant and gutsy of a move that we've seen out of a President in our life time.

The Deleware-moralizing effect?

Seriously, after all that we have done to the terrorists, they are still willing to do what they do. I highly doubt it's even possible to demoralize them. If anything, it'll make them focus more. These guys are willing to strap bombs to their chests and go die for what they beleive. I just don't see how this (as opposed to everything else) would make them think twice about doing what they do.

If anything, it'll piss them off more.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by sabotai
Seriously, after all that we have done to the terrorists, they are still willing to do what they do. I highly doubt it's even possible to demoralize them. If anything, it'll make them focus more. These guys are willing to strap bombs to their chests and go die for what they beleive. I just don't see how this (as opposed to everything else) would make them think twice about doing what they do.

If anything, it'll piss them off more. You may be right there. It definitely remains to be seen, but it is hard for me to see this as anything but a very good move by Dubya.

[chinaski]

sorry if this has been posted here before.

---------------------------------------------------------
GUESS WHO I AM?

*I attacked and took over 2 countries.

*I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US
Treasury.

*I shattered the record for the biggest annual
deficit in history (not easy!).

*I set an economic record for the most personal
bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

*I set all-time record for the biggest drop in
the history of the stock market.

*I am the first president in decades to execute a
federal prisoner.

*In my first year in office I set the all-time
record for most days on vacation by any president
in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I
did).

*After taking the entire month of August off for
vacation, I presided over the worst security
failure in US history.

*I set the record for most campaign fund raising
trips by any president in US history.

*In my first two years in office over 2 million
Americans lost their jobs.

*I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work
Americans than any other president in US history.

*I set the all-time record for most real estate
foreclosures in a 12-month period.

*I appointed more convicted criminals to
administration positions than any president in US
history.

*I set the record for the fewest press
conferences of any president, since the advent of
TV.

*I signed more laws and executive orders amending
the Constitution than any other US president in
history.

*I presided over the biggest energy crises in US
history and refused to intervene when corruption
was revealed.

*I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

*I set the all-time record for most people
worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets
to protest me (15 million people), shattering the
record for protest against any person in the
history of mankind.

*I dissolved more international treaties than any
president in US history.

*I've made my presidency the most secretive and
unaccountable of any in US history.

*Members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in US history. (The poorest
multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
oil tanker named after her.)

*I am the first president in US history to have
all 50 states of the Union simultaneously
struggle against bankruptcy.

*I presided over the biggest corporate stock
market fraud in any market in any country in the
history of the world.

*I am the first president in US history to order
a US attack AND military occupation of a
sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the vast majority of
the international community.

*I have created the largest government department
bureaucracy in the history of the United States,
called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one
letter away from BS).

*I set the all-time record for biggest annual
budget spending increases, more than any other
president in US history (Ronnie was tough to
beat, but I did it!!).

*I am the first president in US history to compel
the United Nations remove the US from the Human
Rights Commission.

*I am the first president in US history to have
the United Nations remove the US from the
Elections Monitoring Board.

*I removed more checks and balances, and have the
least amount of congressional oversight than any
presidential administration in US history.

*I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

*I refused to allow inspectors access to US
prisoners of war and by default no longer abide
by the Geneva Conventions.

*I am the first president in US history to refuse
United Nations election inspectors access during
the 2002 US elections.

*I am the all-time US (and world) record holder
for most corporate campaign donations.

*The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign,
who is also one of my best friends, presided over
one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in
world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron
Corporation).

*I spent more money on polls and focus groups
than any president in US history.

*I am the first president to run and hide when
the US came under attack (and then lied, saying
the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

*I am the first US president to establish a
secret shadow government.

*I took the world's sympathy for the US after
9/11, and in less than a year made the US the
most resented country in the world (possibly the
biggest diplomatic failure in US and world
history).

*I am the first US president in history to have a
majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my
presidency as the biggest threat to world peace
and stability.

*I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals
to be awarded government contracts.

*I set the all-time record for the number of
administration appointees who violated US law by
not selling their huge investments in
corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

*I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties
for Americans than any other president in US
history.

*I entered office with the strongest economy in
US history and in less than two years turned
every single economic category heading straight
down.

*RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one
conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
driving record has been erased and is not
available).

*I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted
the military during time of war.

*I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any
questions about drug use. (wink,wink)

*All records of my tenure as governor of Texas
have been spirited away to my fathers library,
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view.

*All records of any SEC investigations into my
insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed
in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

*All minutes of meetings of any public
corporation for which I served on the board are
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view.

*Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my
VP) attended regarding public energy policy are
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.

With Love,
GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House, Washington, DC

[Dutch]

Seriously, after all that we have done to the terrorists, they are still willing to do what they do. I highly doubt it's even possible to demoralize them. If anything, it'll make them focus more. These guys are willing to strap bombs to their chests and go die for what they beleive. I just don't see how this (as opposed to everything else) would make them think twice about doing what they do.

If anything, it'll piss them off more.

However, you were going to say....the better choice would been what? I didn't catch the rest of your thought process...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by chinaski
Blah....blah....blahAnd if you can tell me how this post has any bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand, I'll take it into account. :rolleyes:

[Dutch]

chinaski

Is that Russian?

[sabotai]

Originally posted by Dutch
However, you were going to say....the better choice would been what? I didn't catch the rest of your thought process...

Ok. Quote me where I said what he did was a mistake, or it was the wrong move.

EDIT: Kind of went overboard there...must be all those hormones they pump turkeys full of. (Ate a lot of turkey tonight...)

[TroyF]

Chinaski's post typifies the attitudes of the far left and right in our country. I can tell you I'll respect Hell Atlantic bashing Bush over a decision than I will Chinaski. He at least has the ability to look at both sides of the equation and see that Bush isn't the Anti-Christ.

Honestly, is it Bush's fault that all the dot.coms blew sky high? I mean, are you REALLY stupid enough to believe that?

If this pisses the terrorists off more, so be it. It's important that our troops understand their leader is behind them. It's important the citizens of Iraq know that we aren't going to run away and leave them with the same dictator the way we did the last time. And yes, it is important that those terrorists attacking our troops understand that their "mission" is failing.

The far right and the far left are things I could do without. Yet I realize even they serve a purpose.

TroyF

[sabotai]

Troy, I agree. I liked the move. It is important to keep the morale of the troops and the people of Iraq high.

[maximus]

Originally posted by chinaski
sorry if this has been posted here before.

---------------------------------------------------------
GUESS WHO I AM?

*I attacked and took over 2 countries.

*I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US
Treasury.

*I shattered the record for the biggest annual
deficit in history (not easy!).

*I set an economic record for the most personal
bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

*I set all-time record for the biggest drop in
the history of the stock market.

*I am the first president in decades to execute a
federal prisoner.

*In my first year in office I set the all-time
record for most days on vacation by any president
in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I
did).

*After taking the entire month of August off for
vacation, I presided over the worst security
failure in US history.

*I set the record for most campaign fund raising
trips by any president in US history.

*In my first two years in office over 2 million
Americans lost their jobs.

*I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work
Americans than any other president in US history.

*I set the all-time record for most real estate
foreclosures in a 12-month period.

*I appointed more convicted criminals to
administration positions than any president in US
history.

*I set the record for the fewest press
conferences of any president, since the advent of
TV.

*I signed more laws and executive orders amending
the Constitution than any other US president in
history.

*I presided over the biggest energy crises in US
history and refused to intervene when corruption
was revealed.

*I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

*I set the all-time record for most people
worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets
to protest me (15 million people), shattering the
record for protest against any person in the
history of mankind.

*I dissolved more international treaties than any
president in US history.

*I've made my presidency the most secretive and
unaccountable of any in US history.

*Members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in US history. (The poorest
multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
oil tanker named after her.)

*I am the first president in US history to have
all 50 states of the Union simultaneously
struggle against bankruptcy.

*I presided over the biggest corporate stock
market fraud in any market in any country in the
history of the world.

*I am the first president in US history to order
a US attack AND military occupation of a
sovereign nation, and I did so against the will
of the United Nations and the vast majority of
the international community.

*I have created the largest government department
bureaucracy in the history of the United States,
called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one
letter away from BS).

*I set the all-time record for biggest annual
budget spending increases, more than any other
president in US history (Ronnie was tough to
beat, but I did it!!).

*I am the first president in US history to compel
the United Nations remove the US from the Human
Rights Commission.

*I am the first president in US history to have
the United Nations remove the US from the
Elections Monitoring Board.

*I removed more checks and balances, and have the
least amount of congressional oversight than any
presidential administration in US history.

*I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

*I refused to allow inspectors access to US
prisoners of war and by default no longer abide
by the Geneva Conventions.

*I am the first president in US history to refuse
United Nations election inspectors access during
the 2002 US elections.

*I am the all-time US (and world) record holder
for most corporate campaign donations.

*The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign,
who is also one of my best friends, presided over
one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in
world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron
Corporation).

*I spent more money on polls and focus groups
than any president in US history.

*I am the first president to run and hide when
the US came under attack (and then lied, saying
the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

*I am the first US president to establish a
secret shadow government.

*I took the world's sympathy for the US after
9/11, and in less than a year made the US the
most resented country in the world (possibly the
biggest diplomatic failure in US and world
history).

*I am the first US president in history to have a
majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my
presidency as the biggest threat to world peace
and stability.

*I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals
to be awarded government contracts.

*I set the all-time record for the number of
administration appointees who violated US law by
not selling their huge investments in
corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

*I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties
for Americans than any other president in US
history.

*I entered office with the strongest economy in
US history and in less than two years turned
every single economic category heading straight
down.

*RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one
conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas
driving record has been erased and is not
available).

*I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted
the military during time of war.

*I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any
questions about drug use. (wink,wink)

*All records of my tenure as governor of Texas
have been spirited away to my fathers library,
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view.

*All records of any SEC investigations into my
insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed
in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

*All minutes of meetings of any public
corporation for which I served on the board are
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view.

*Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my
VP) attended regarding public energy policy are
sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.

With Love,
GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House, Washington, DC


THIS POST SUCKS!

[chinaski]

a little off topic, but i sensed some anti and pro bush sentiments and just thought id throw this out there.

some of the statements in that post are a pretty broad and dont carry much weight, but a good deal of them are dead on facts. i dont think dubya caused the stock market too crash, but theres is no denying enron played a major role. i think its a interesting read, none the less.

im not a democrat or republican, i look at both sides with the same amount of disgust.

back to the topic of bush over baghdad. how can this be considered brave? he flew in, walked about 100 yards from his plane, slung some chow and came back home. broadcasted during the most watched event on thanksgiving, the macys day parade. i truely hope it boosted the morale of those unfortunate enough to have to stay behind, but other than.. bfd.

[Vince]

Originally posted by chinaski
back to the topic of bush over baghdad. how can this be considered brave? he flew in, walked about 100 yards from his plane, slung some chow and came back home. broadcasted during the most watched event on thanksgiving, the macys day parade. i truely hope it boosted the morale of those unfortunate enough to have to stay behind, but other than.. bfd.

Wow...as if the first post in the thread weren't bad enough...

Are you kidding me? Seriously? You really think that it was a walk in the park to get him over there, and he was at no risk?

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Troy, I agree. I liked the move. It is important to keep the morale of the troops and the people of Iraq high.

yet you accuse me of wanting to give Bush a handjob because I agree with you. Unbelievable.

I don't love ANY politician, sabotai. I just happen to think that out of the nine choices we have to be our president for the next four years, this guy's the best choice. Does that mean he's perfect? Of course not... just means (in my opinion) he's the best option we have available to us.

And Chinaski... if I pony up the money, will you make that same trip?

[TroyF]

Originally posted by chinaski
a little off topic, but i sensed some anti and pro bush sentiments and just thought id throw this out there.

some of the statements in that post are a pretty broad and dont carry much weight, but a good deal of them are dead on facts. i dont think dubya caused the stock market too crash, but theres is no denying enron played a major role. i think its a interesting read, none the less.

im not a democrat or republican, i look at both sides with the same amount of disgust.

back to the topic of bush over baghdad. how can this be considered brave? he flew in, walked about 100 yards from his plane, slung some chow and came back home. broadcasted during the most watched event on thanksgiving, the macys day parade. i truely hope it boosted the morale of those unfortunate enough to have to stay behind, but other than.. bfd.

Even "facts" need to be taken in context.

Here are just a couple of your facts:


*After taking the entire month of August off for
vacation, I presided over the worst security
failure in US history.

I'm not going to even bother with getting into the vacation part of this. If you think a president ever really has a vacation, you have more issues than I could debate anyway. What exactly did he have to do with 9/11? Do you think he reads every single memo or conversation the FBI or CIA gathers?

or how about this gem:

*In my first two years in office over 2 million
Americans lost their jobs.

Ok, that's a fact. WHY did this happen? Did GW have anything to do with this on a personal level? I mean, it couldn't have been because of 9/11, the dot.com bankruptcies and a stock market level that was too high and ready for a collapse long before any of that even took place could it?

Oh, that's right, Bush is to blame for 9/11 because he was on vacation in August. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if I came up with some more "facts" I could blame George W. Bush for every problem that has occured in the world over the past two years. He's EVIL!!! EVIL I SAY!!!!

Get a grip. If you disagree with the policies of this administration, the more power to you. I'll even be more than happy to engage a discussion of those issues and will even agree with you on a few.

If you want to buy into 15 word blurbs trying to portray the guy as a cross between Adolph Hitler and a retarted redneck, there is no way any of us will be able to hold a serious discussion with you.

TroyF

[HornedFrog Purple]

I agree this is a great thing for our soldiers, but it does nothing to change my opinion on gross overspending, dubious business practices and outright lying to the American people on other facets of this administration.

Like my dad said, anyone who can make the Texas Rangers worse when he was done with them doesn't deserve to be President. ;)

[Senator]

Eddie Chiles?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Hell Atlantic
he's lots of things, but he's no coward. he has a great way of pulling off these things every once in a while. the last time i felt proud to have Bush as our president was during the World Series 2 years ago after 9/11 when he threw out the first pitch. sure, he was packing some major bullet-proofing under his jacket, but what he did was so inspriring. Funny you'd mention that, it was the first thing that came to mind when I heard about the Baghdad visit. I think it's a fair comparison. I remember in the days after 9/11, people weren't sure what to do - can I go to sporting events, can I get on a plane, can I go outside? Having the president walk right out in front of 50,000 people without batting an eye sent the perfect message.

Compare that to the infamous jet landing, which seemed like an over-the-top PR move at the time and in hindsight comes off even worse ("major combat is over!"). Having Bush grinning like a child in his flight suit didn't help.

The Baghdad trip was a PR move to be sure, but sometimes you need some good PR (for the public's sake, and for the troops). PR is a hit-and-miss game. I think this one was a hit.

[portnoise]

I just wonder how people can say "good move" about this turkey thing when it was so obviously a photo op that couldn't actually change anything about what is still a bad situation in Iraq that Bush got the US into. Iraq is still in chaos, soldiers die daily, much of the world is still angry with the US, and no amount of stovetop stuffing is going to change that.

It's no secret Bush (and friends) like to obscure the truth by putting brave facades on bad situations. The "Clean Skies Act" allows for more corporate pollution; the "Patriot Act" allows the government to invade people's privacy. This was another example: "the president is a good guy who provides turkey to homesick troops at great risk to himself" instead of "the president starts wars without consensus, proof, or a plan for what happens afterward".

But I don't think most people were fooled by things like this, and yet we say "good move" about the turkey-- WHY? Did it really make us think Bush is one with the brave tragic soldiers? Or could it be that each of us thinking "public opinion of Bush is going to improve" makes us raise our personal opinions of him along with everyone else? Or are there really people who believe cranberry sauce actually matters when all it can change are opinions and, maybe, Bush's approval ratings?

Did I mention I've been teaching Orwell in my english class?

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by portnoise
I just wonder how people can say "good move" about this turkey thing when it was so obviously a photo op that couldn't actually change anything about what is still a bad situation in Iraq that Bush got the US into. Iraq is still in chaos, soldiers die daily, much of the world is still angry with the US, and no amount of stovetop stuffing is going to change that.

It's no secret Bush (and friends) like to obscure the truth by putting brave facades on bad situations. The "Clean Skies Act" allows for more corporate pollution; the "Patriot Act" allows the government to invade people's privacy. This was another example: "the president is a good guy who provides turkey to homesick troops at great risk to himself" instead of "the president starts wars without consensus, proof, or a plan for what happens afterward".

But I don't think most people were fooled by things like this, and yet we say "good move" about the turkey-- WHY? Did it really make us think Bush is one with the brave tragic soldiers? Or could it be that each of us thinking "public opinion of Bush is going to improve" makes us raise our personal opinions of him along with everyone else? Or are there really people who believe cranberry sauce actually matters when all it can change are opinions and, maybe, Bush's approval ratings?

Did I mention I've been teaching Orwell in my english class?

:rolleyes:

I don't think anybody here has said their opinion of Bush has changed because of this. I think people have said it was a good thing to do, it was the right thing to do, and yes it was a courageous thing to do.

There's a dig about critical thinking and reading comprehension to be made... but I'm just going to let it go today (being the compassionate conservative that I am).

[portnoise]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
:rolleyes:

I don't think anybody here has said their opinion of Bush has changed because of this. I think people have said it was a good thing to do, it was the right thing to do, and yes it was a courageous thing to do.

There's a dig about critical thinking and reading comprehension to be made... but I'm just going to let it go today (being the compassionate conservative that I am).

You can make the dig, Cam. I don't mind, being the laissez-faire canadian that I am. :)

But I think we can only see the stunt as "the right thing to do" if we don't see it as being motivated by the recent bad news coming out of Iraq and/or the upcoming election. And I think it was definitely motivated by both those things; don't you?

Maybe I was going overboard in saying this stunt could totally change people's opinions. What it does do is subtly distract us from the continuing suckiness of the situation.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by portnoise
But I think we can only see the stunt as "the right thing to do" if we don't see it as being motivated by the recent bad news coming out of Iraq and/or the upcoming election. And I think it was definitely motivated by both those things; don't you?Of course it was motivated by recent events in Iraq. You can't disregard it on that basis. If they didn't react to those events, they'd be accused of being non-responsive, of ignoring what was going on.

So does it distract us from a bad situation, or does it offer some sort of evidence that maybe the situation wasn't as bad as we've been lead to believe? Obviously, we won't know the real answer any time soon.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by chinaski

some of the statements in that post are a pretty broad and dont carry much weight, but a good deal of them are dead on facts. i dont think dubya caused the stock market too crash, but theres is no denying enron played a major role. i think its a interesting read, none the less.


Not really a Bush supporter, but the market went bad in March 2000...Billy was still in there...

[sabotai]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
yet you accuse me of wanting to give Bush a handjob because I agree with you. Unbelievable.

Yup...becuase of this one and only time that you go and overly praise Bush...that's why I said it... :rolleyes:

I don't love ANY politician, sabotai. I just happen to think that out of the nine choices we have to be our president for the next four years, this guy's the best choice. Does that mean he's perfect? Of course not... just means (in my opinion) he's the best option we have available to us.

Then show it. Rip into Bush and the republicans. When he does something you think is horrible, verbally rip his head off with the same passion that you rip into the teachers unions. All I get from you and several others is an attitude that no republican can do anything wrong and every single problem that exists is because of the democrats and how they "hate America" (not your words). That's why I said what I said before...

And Chinaski... if I pony up the money, will you make that same trip?

While it may have had some danger to it, there is no way that the secret service or the military lets the President go unless they can reasonbly ensure his safety. If you can get the money for me to make the same trip, with the same secret service and military preperation and security, I for one will go.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Yup...becuase of this one and only time that you go and overly praise Bush...that's why I said it... :rolleyes:



Then show it. Rip into Bush and the republicans. When he does something you think is horrible, verbally rip his head off with the same passion that you rip into the teachers unions. All I get from you and several others is an attitude that no republican can do anything wrong and every single problem that exists is because of the democrats and how they "hate America" (not your words). That's why I said what I said before...



While it may have had some danger to it, there is no way that the secret service or the military lets the President go unless they can reasonbly ensure his safety. If you can get the money for me to make the same trip, with the same secret service and military preperation and security, I for one will go.

First of all, I rarely start threads praising President Bush. I usually chime into threads and "defend" the President. There is a difference.

Secondly, despite the fact that I don't agree with NCLB, his stance on things like steel tariffs, and his refusal to actually veto a piece of legislation... I still think he's the best option available. I don't see a reason or a need to bash the guy that I think can do the best job.

Thirdly, a reasonable guarantee of safety isn't a guarantee of safety and you know it. If you're serious about going... I'd suggest running for president. Who knows, I might find you more palatable than the nine other declared candidates.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
First of all, I rarely start threads praising President Bush. I usually chime into threads and "defend" the President. There is a difference.

Secondly, despite the fact that I don't agree with NCLB, his stance on things like steel tariffs, and his refusal to actually veto a piece of legislation... I still think he's the best option available. I don't see a reason or a need to bash the guy that I think can do the best job.

Thirdly, a reasonable guarantee of safety isn't a guarantee of safety and you know it. If you're serious about going... I'd suggest running for president. Who knows, I might find you more palatable than the nine other declared candidates.

First, so what? What does that have to do with you not ever ripping into Bush for something you don't like? A democrat does something you don't like, and it's open season. Bush? You hold your tongue.

Secondly, see first.

Thirdly, you can not guarentee safety anywhere. By your definition, every single thing he does is courageous because no one could ever guarentee his safety.

[ISiddiqui]

Personally I applaud the move. It was a good idea. Bush took a decent sized risk and chose to eat Thanksgiving dinner with troops in Baghdad rather than his own family. That, and he got to speak with some members of the governing council. All in all, not bad, Mr. President, not bad at all.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
All in all, not bad, Mr. President, not bad at all. Whoa. If ISiddiqui utters those words about any Republican, especially Bush, you know he must have done something right. :p

[ISiddiqui]

Hmmm... I may have misrepesented myself on these forums ;).

I am a registered Republican, you realize? :D I also was President of the Rutgers College Republicans for 2 years.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Hmmm... I may have misrepesented myself on these forums ;).

I am a registered Republican, you realize? :D I also was President of the Rutgers College Republicans for 2 years. You......have............GOT...............to................be................kidding...............me.

[Dutch]

I was very moved by this gesture a few years ago...I wonder if those who are bashing Bush now also bashed Clinton? I honestly doubt it.

1999: President Bill Clinton addressed Kosovar refugees and NATO military personnel in Macedonia, two weeks after end of NATO airstrikes to drive Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo. Five months later he addressed Albanians and shared a Thanksgiving dinner with U.S. troops in Kosovo.

[ISiddiqui]

You......have............GOT...............to................be................kidding...............me.

If I was, that club didn't have a President for 2 years or a VP for another one of those years :D.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else? Must be. In my mind, you were a little to the left of Easy Mac.

[sabotai]

Dutch, I doubt it too, and I honestly doubt most of those who are praising Bush over this praised Clinton as highly when he did it.

Just more political bullshit from both sides...

[portnoise]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Of course it was motivated by recent events in Iraq. You can't disregard it on that basis. If they didn't react to those events, they'd be accused of being non-responsive, of ignoring what was going on.

So does it distract us from a bad situation, or does it offer some sort of evidence that maybe the situation wasn't as bad as we've been lead to believe? Obviously, we won't know the real answer any time soon.

I don't get it, ML... how this can offer evidence that things in Iraq are better than we think? Nothing's changed...soldiers still die daily...there's still no plan to get them out of there. Bush's response is to feed them turkey? Not much of a response. He benefits a lot more from this than they do.

[ISiddiqui]

Must be. In my mind, you were a little to the left of Easy Mac.

Ah, a muddled mind, I see ;). I had thought that perhaps you considered (moderate) Libertarians to be lefties? I'd consider myself more like Arnold Swarzenegger and Jesse Ventura than most any other politician.

[Ben E Lou]

Not at all. I'm more of a libertarian than anything else. Heck, I didn't even VOTE for Dubya, and probably won't in 2004 either. (And yes, I did vote...)

[ISiddiqui]

Commie ;).

edit: Then again, I have said (on another forum) that I'd vote for Kerry over Bush if Kerry gets the nod. Any other Dem, and forget it.

[sabotai]

Did you vote for Doddy?

:) (Daily Show fans will get that....)

[Axxon]

Originally posted by CamEdwards

"I don't think it was all a photo-op, but you'd have to be pretty stupid not to see the public relations benefit in this. The real question is... who was intended to see this message?

I'll argue that this has nothing to do with the election next year. You won't see Bush shaking hands of soldiers in Baghdad during a campaign commercial (unless it's one the Democrats run... kind of like the new John Kerry ad). No, this photo-op is another piece of the War on Terror. It's our answer to the audiotapes by Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.



Maybe it has nothing to do with the election next year, but... it impressed me and I'm very much a Bush critic. It won't make me vote for him but it does make me feel better about him and that's pretty valuable too.

We can say all we want about the man but he took a huge risk to do this and I know he made many many soldiers happier and more relieved as a result. It was a damned good thing IMHO.

I have criticized the war and how the situation was handled and I'll continue to. It's my right to do so and it's an honestly held belief.

Today, I'm honestly proud of my commander in chief and I haven't been able to say that very often the last few years. That's a good thing.

I also thought about what you said about it being a piece in the WoT but while that may be true it was secondary in my mind. It felt like he was doing something good for those who are risking their lives based on his decisions. It sent the message that he wasn't sending them somewhere he was afraid to go himself. It did show a bond and photo op or not, he did it.

I know you feel this already as you supported the war but from a member of the opposition, I liked it a lot and right now as I said I feel warm and fuzzy. It's the holidays and that's what I'm supposed to be feeling. The prez did real good this time.

Lastly ( to answer other posts I was reading before replying to this one ), I'm about as cynical as they come but sometimes you've got to give props to the gesture even if it's simply a gesture.

Everything that moves the world along is posturing really. It's born out of reality and takes on whatever meaning the shapers at the time want it to take.

One can snipe at Rosa's refusal and at Gandi's resistance and I've even heard people taking pot shots at Mother Teresa.

Cynicism is a fine thing and it always is a good thing to question motives but at some point you've got to step back and give kudo's. How can good proceed if everyone is doubting it all the time.

While this gesture assuredly falls short of the examples mentioned above I've never had the desire to compare the president to these folks either. I do have an image of him that's ever being refined as history is being played out and I honestlywasn't expecting this of him. He surprised me but he shouldn't have. He deserves credit in my opinion.

Of course, the cynic in me can understand that he has self serving motives and shouldn't simply be praised for actions that may serve those motives. A true cynic would be loathe to do this.

Still, I can't see how one can encourage the behavior that one supports without supporting examples of said behavior. At some point one must support if not trust something and say good show even if one doubts the sincerity of the act.

But... I don't doubt the sincerity of the act. Honestly. As much as I hate a lot about this president this is one of those things I'd expect him to do. It is one of his good sides. I'm glad he acted on it.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by portnoise
It's amazing to me that there are people who don't see this for the blatant propaganda move it so clearly is.


OK, but if the propaganda move is the best move available then how can it be attacked???

As an institutional tool, propaganda is a negative but this is changing due to the improved communication technology of our time.

The techniques of Goebbels won't work in todays world. There has to be some meat along with the sizzle and this war is a picture perfect example of that. Hey, we were attacked and the initial reaction was there but where is the "remember the alamo" mentality??

It's not there so much because the communication channels are much wider and more open. The citizens are more informed and active. That's the difference between the propaganda of old and that of today.

Governments have had to adapt as have we all. So must our reactions adapt IMHO.

We need to applaud good things and criticize bad ones. It's the first time in a long time that citizens have had any power in that regards. It's a good thing and seeing reactions that can satisy as opposed to pacify ones electorate is a good thing.

That's how I see it anyway.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Dutch

Happy Thankgiving everyone!


Hey Dutch, I didn't ever engage you on your beliefs before and I'm not going to now. You were serving your country and while I didn't necessarily agree with the countries choices I didn't feel it was my place nor even necessarily helpful to be filling you with doubt.

I am so grateful that you served as you did. That's the bottom line. I come from a family of soldiers and I too almost went that route ( through ROTC. Grunt life would not be for me hehe ).

Still, I agree 110% with your post. You said it well and I agree. We may have different ideas how to get where we're going we're going to the same place. I'll say this to political peeps too. I just wish we'd be more civil on the journey.

Happy Thanksgiving a day late and happy holiday season here at home. :)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by portnoise
I don't get it, ML... how this can offer evidence that things in Iraq are better than we think? Nothing's changed...soldiers still die daily...there's still no plan to get them out of there. Bush's response is to feed them turkey? Not much of a response. He benefits a lot more from this than they do. It obviously doesn't bring any dead soldiers back. But there was a perception out there that the bad guys were winning in Iraq. That they could strike whenever they wanted to, and whatever they wanted to, and that there wasn't much that the US could do about it. That perception had to be hurting troop morale, not to mention boosting the spirits of the bad guys.

So given that, yeah, I think that having Air Force One land in Baghdad, and having the president stroll in to have dinner, really could make things better. It will make his poll numbers better too, of course, but that doesn't necessarily negate the other benefits.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I wonder if the DE-moralizing effect this could have on the resistance fighters/terrorists ("Damn, we've been doing everything we can, and Bush himself shows up and says they won't back out.") will be even greater than the morale boost for our troops. Like him or not, (and lately I've been rather displeased over his general over-governmentalization and the political posturing of the senior prescription debacle,) this was probably as stunning, brilliant and gutsy of a move that we've seen out of a President in our life time.

I'm not buying that this will demoralize the enemy. Hell, he could have pissed all over the Hussein family plot if he'd wanted to. America represents ultimate power in the world today. They know that and they know how their fight must go if they're going to oppose it.

While this shows them that we are willing to fight as long as we must it doesn't necessarily show them that we are invincible. I can see this one motivating our troops but if I was the opposition I don't think I'd give a flip especially if I was willing to strap explosives to my body and kill as many "enemies" as I could.

At best, I'd mourn the missed opportunity.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Dutch, I doubt it too, and I honestly doubt most of those who are praising Bush over this praised Clinton as highly when he did it.

Just more political bullshit from both sides...

Actually, I don't remember anybody bashing Clinton for spending Thanksgiving with the troops.

No bashing=no need to defend the president.

There's the difference... and now you might see where the political bullshit is truly coming from on this one.

The sad thing is, it's not coming from the politicians this time. Sure, the Democratic candidates have all taken there jabs at the move, but the most hate-filled vitriol I've read has been from everyday Americans. I think that's what makes me more angry than anything else.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by CamEdwards

The sad thing is, it's not coming from the politicians this time. Sure, the Democratic candidates have all taken there jabs at the move, but the most hate-filled vitriol I've read has been from everyday Americans. I think that's what makes me more angry than anything else.


Ah yes, every day Americans don't agree with you. Yeah, that would make me angry too. ;)

[CamEdwards]

If people disagreeing with me made me angry, I'd have had an aneurysm long ago. Now quit twisting my words, pigfucker. :)

[sabotai]

Cam, if you don't think there are republicans who are praising this up and down, you truely are blind.

Yes, there is a difference between defending and praising. But for some reason, you can't seem to be able to defend Bush without praising him at the same time. I will say this is a good move to keep morale of the troops and the people of Iraq high, but I will not make more of it than what it is. You on the other hand say things like it is equivilent to Saddam or Osama showing up at a US college campus. That's not simply defending, that's praising (and it's also incredibly stupid).

[Dutch]

I think his point is that the political extremists against Bush have gotten some people so brainwashed that they don't even have to shovel their BS to get their crowd in a frenzy. They have assaulted Bush for every single action he's taken that the extremists are simply programmed to react now, without even thinking.

Thus, spending Thanksgiving with the troops is now evil in some people's minds! It's actually quite amazing to watch it unfold.

[CamEdwards]

What I said sabotai, is that this is the equivalent of a Saddam or Osama audiotape. Then I added to that by saying it's the equivalent of Saddam or Osama showing up in a "safe part" of the United States. I never said "a college campus". I said Berkeley. There's a reason I referenced that particular college campus.

It was a joke. Maybe not a very funny one, but a joke nonetheless.

[Dutch]

I will say this is a good move to keep morale of the troops and the people of Iraq high, but I will not make more of it than what it is.

But what is it? Is keeping morale high inconsequential? Is morale something worth throwing away to keep the terrorists from getting "pissed". I mean, since when has appeasing terrorists been so en vogue?

I think we have all seen a football game where a team is up 28-14 and the team that is down in the dumps turns the tide of the match by doing something good. And I think we see teams that are up 28-14 keep the pressure on by doing something good.

Doing good things and keeping your team "in the game" is such a crutial aspect of winning any war.

If you want to believe that Bush is doing it for gaining a vote, go ahead, but if you don't think he was elected to be a leader and do things leaders do (like visiting the troops for Thanksgiving) then you are being a little to blind and partisan too be objective.

Not meaning to pick on you Sab, but c'mon, going after him for this is getting a little to rediculous, trite, and obvious.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by Dutch
I think his point is that the political extremists against Bush have gotten some people so brainwashed that they don't even have to shovel their BS to get their crowd in a frenzy. They have assaulted Bush for every single action he's taken that the extremists are simply programmed to react now, without even thinking.

Thus, spending Thanksgiving with the troops is now evil in some people's minds! It's actually quite amazing to watch it unfold.

I agree. What I'm saying is that it goes both ways. There are polticial extremists that have gotten people so brainwashed that they will never speak up when Bush, or other republicans, do things they don't like. And some of them probably actually beleive that Bush and the republicans can never do anything wrong.

Acting like people who just come out and openly praise every thing Bush does don't exist shows that you are probably one of them. And yes, acting like people who just come out and bashes Bush for everything he does don't exist, shows that you probably one of them as well.

Like I said before, political bullshit from both sides.

[sabotai]

But what is it? Is keeping morale high inconsequential? Is morale something worth throwing away to keep the terrorists from getting "pissed". I mean, since when has appeasing terrorists been so en vogue?

I never said it was inconsequential. I never said keeping high morale was worth throwing away to keep the terrorsts from getting pissed. I never said we shoudl appease the terrorists.

Quote me where I did.

Doing good things and keeping your team "in the game" is such a crutial aspect of winning any war.

Quote me where I said it wasn't.

If you want to believe that Bush is doing it for gaining a vote, go ahead, but if you don't think he was elected to be a leader and do things leaders do (like visiting the troops for Thanksgiving) then you are being a little to blind and partisan to be objective.

Quote me where I said he was doing it to just gain votes.

Are you even reading what I am fucking writing?

Not meaning to pick on you Sab, but c'mon, going after him for this is getting a little to rediculous, trite, and obvious.

How am I going after Bush for this?

How many FUCKING times do I have to say I liked the move? Huh? 2? 5? 199? Or do I have to praise him up and down like some demigod just to get you to not act like I'm bashing him?

[Dutch]

Like I said before, political bullshit from both sides.

I gave Clinton credit for his dealing with China and south east asia. I gave him credit for dealing with the former Yugoslavia when the Euro's barely showed an interest. I gave him credit for keeping the pressure on Saddam and using military strikes during Operation Desert Fox to at least try and do something to remove the WMD and protect US/UK/AUS air crews from anti-aircraft fire that was constantatly bombarding them during their patrols to defend the Kurds and the Shites.

I bashed him too, but most of all, I accepted the fact that he was my President and believed he was working in the best interest of my country.

I don't see many people giving Bush half a chance, on a scale that would be proportionally greater than any "political BS on both sides" during the Clinton years. Perception is reality, and the perception is that Bush is getting an un-fair shake from the media and the Democrats. I mean, bashing him for visiting troops on Thanksgiving is a "stunt" and "vote grabbing"? I don't think anybody can honestly remember people saying that about Clinton.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
If people disagreeing with me made me angry, I'd have had an aneurysm long ago. Now quit twisting my words, pigfucker. :)

Well now, it's hard arguing with you considering I sorta agree with you which doesn't happen all that often. Still, I simply commented on the words you chose to use. If you mean something different try using different words.

OTOH, pigfucker is a name reserved for the ladies I go out with. I have a feeling they'd resent not only you usurping the word but the implications that this has about them. :) That is treading on dangerous grounds my friend.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Axxon
Well now, it's hard arguing with you considering I sorta agree with you which doesn't happen all that often. Still, I simply commented on the words you chose to use. If you mean something different try using different words.

OTOH, pigfucker is a name reserved for the ladies I go out with. I have a feeling they'd resent not only you usurping the word but the implications that this has about them. :) That is treading on dangerous grounds my friend.

LOL


Sabotai,

So, in essence, because you bash Bush quite a bit, you're entitled to praise him in this instance. But because I praise Bush quite a bit, I'm somehow not entitled to praise him in this instance without criticism from you?

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Dutch

I bashed him too, but most of all, I accepted the fact that he was my President and believed he was working in the best interest of my country.

I don't see many people giving Bush half a chance, on a scale that would be proportionally greater than any "political BS on both sides" during the Clinton years. Perception is reality, and the perception is that Bush is getting an un-fair shake from the media and the Democrats. I mean, bashing him for visiting troops on Thanksgiving is a "stunt" and "vote grabbing"? I don't think anybody can honestly remember people saying that about Clinton.

Your first statement above is a major part of the current problem. A whole lot of folks ( myself included ) saw the invasion of Iraq as more of a personal agenda than an agenda in the best interests of the country. I happen to believe that he convinced himself that his agenda WAS in the best interest of the country and therefore am more open to gestures like this.

Clinton really had nothing to gain except the "wag the dog" issue which he did take hits on. Different conflict, different issues.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
LOL


Sabotai,

So, in essence, because you bash Bush quite a bit, you're entitled to praise him in this instance. But because I praise Bush quite a bit, I'm somehow not entitled to praise him in this instance without criticism from you?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Why'd you quote me and address Sabotai???

[CamEdwards]

The LOL was addressed to you. I just decided to conserve space and avoid a dola by then addressing Sabotai.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Axxon]

Gotcha. :)

[sabotai]

Cam, why is it whenever someone just happens to disagree with something the president does or say, it's "bashing". There is a difference between bashing and disagreeing. I bash Bush quite a bit? Ok....you beleive whatever you want.

I wasn't criticizing you over this one thing. In fact, this all started because you have no sence of humor (the handjob thing was obviously a joke at how you do praise Bush a lot, which you just admitted). If I'm criticizing you over anything, it's your inability to do to the republicans what you are always doing to the democrats when they do something you don't like. With the democrats, you go off on them. With the republicans, you hold your tongue, or find a way or a rationale to endorse it.

You keep trying to turn it around by saying that I am saying these things about this one incident when I have clearly been talking about how you approach politics in general.

[sabotai]

dola,

Next time I'll just make handjob jokes about SkyDog and leave you out of this. Judging by the picture of him that pops up every now and then, I can safely presume that he has a sence of humor.

Right SkyDog?

http://www.irregardless-productions.com/bigmanphoto.jpeg

[sabotai]

double dola,

And regardless of the "bashing" I do to you Cam, I will, and so will the entire forum, be grateful for you giving us that gem. ;)

(Except perhaps SkyDog. :D)

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Anyone else get the feeling that Cam would be first in line to give Bush a handjob if he requested one?

;)

that's a joke in terms of what you said, but not in its intent.

I think we can also safely assume that this pedantic argument over the use of the words praise/defend and bash/disagree when referring to our positions is going to go nowhere.

I still don't see how that makes it right to (once again) make snide comments about me for stating my opinion. In fact, I'm getting a little tired of having to defend myself from your personal attacks. When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person. Maybe you could try doing the same thing.

[Dutch]

Sabotai says - I never said it was inconsequential. I never said keeping high morale was worth throwing away to keep the terrorsts from getting pissed. I never said we shoudl appease the terrorists.

Quote me where I did.


Sabotai says - The Deleware-moralizing effect?

Seriously, after all that we have done to the terrorists, they are still willing to do what they do. I highly doubt it's even possible to demoralize them. If anything, it'll make them focus more. These guys are willing to strap bombs to their chests and go die for what they beleive. I just don't see how this (as opposed to everything else) would make them think twice about doing what they do.

If anything, it'll piss them off more.

I'm reading. Usually, by now, somebody I'm arguing with has called me a million names, but you haven't so far...I'm impressed!

[Dutch]

When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person.

Rock on, Cam, rock on. :)

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
double dola,

And regardless of the "bashing" I do to you Cam, I will, and so will the entire forum, be grateful for you giving us that gem. ;)

(Except perhaps SkyDog. :D)

You're welcome for that. The world needs more buff men in patriotic panties.:D

[sabotai]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
I still don't see how that makes it right to (once again) make snide comments about me for stating my opinion. In fact, I'm getting a little tired of having to defend myself from your personal attacks. When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person. Maybe you could try doing the same thing.

*sigh*

I'm an idiot. Please explain to me how I have made snide comments and have attacked you personally. I'm serious. I really want to know because I simply do not see how I have attacked you personally. This entire time I really do beleive I have been talking about how you approach politics.

[sabotai]

Dutch,

I'm a little confused. Did you quote that because you realize that I was only putting up a counter-point to what SkyDog said about demoralizing the terrorsts? Or do you still think I said it was a mistake because it'll piss off the terrorists?

A lot of sarcasm in this thread. I'm trying to swim through it all. :)

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Anyone else get the feeling that Cam would be first in line to give Bush a handjob if he requested one?

;)

That's not a snide comment directed at me personally? Hell, half this thread has been about you going off on me for not bashing the president when I think he's done something wrong.

It's really not worth arguing about. You don't like me or my politics, and I'm a big enough boy to handle that. I just think political debate between the two of us has now reached the point of being counterproductive.

[sabotai]

Oh my goodness...

Ok, like i said before, no more joke directed at you.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
I still don't see how that makes it right to (once again) make snide comments about me for stating my opinion. In fact, I'm getting a little tired of having to defend myself from your personal attacks. When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person. Maybe you could try doing the same thing.
Cam, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you do for a living?
If you say you support the troops, then support their commander in chief. Be happy their morale was boosted on Thanksgiving. If you can't do that, at least have the decency to admit that you get a perverse thrill out of seeing our soldiers feel horrible, because it makes your own feelings of misery a little more palatable and justified.
If Bush's visit boosted the morale of the troops, that's great. When our troops are sent into harms way, I want them to kick ass. But that sure doesn't mean that I have to support the person who sent them into harm's way if I believe in doing so he is risking their lives recklessly. I can support the troops without supporting the CIC.

But you tell me that means that I get a perverse thrill out of seeing our soliders feel horrible because it makes my own feelings of misery a little more palatable and justified.

Exactly how is that statement an attack on philosophy, but not on a person? A attack on philopsophy would be more along the lines of you're-wrong-and-here's-why. This is you're-a-horrible-person.

If you got a problem with sabotai, fine. But I wouldn't present yourself as holier-than-thou when you're not.

And since when is it a band thing to give the president a hand job? :)

[Axxon]

Originally posted by sabotai
Anyone else get the feeling that Cam would be first in line to give Bush a handjob if he requested one?



Originally posted by CamEdwards
That's not a snide comment directed at me personally?

Well, technically no, it's not. It's not a comment but a question so you should ask 'is that not a snide question directed at me personally'? A mere semantic point I'll grant you but there has been an awful lot of that going around in this thread too and I didn't want to be left out. :)

[sabotai]

If you got a problem with sabotai, fine. But I wouldn't present yourself as holier-than-thou when you're not.

Hey! Wait a second. Why's that fine?

;)

And since when is it a band thing to give the president a hand job? :)

My thoughts exactly! The president needs some lovin' every now and then. :)

[CamEdwards]

why not quote the rest of that thought, chief? You know, the part where I say

"You don't have to think the President walks on water... but at least admit that this was a good thing he did. "

It's easy to paint a false picture when you take things out of context... but just to be sure that nobody else does that I've edited that post on my blog to read "If you support the troops, then support the commander in chief for spending time with the troops", which is what the entire post meant (taken in context).

[CamEdwards]

dola: chief, please tell me who I'm personally attacking by stating that? Also, please note that I specifically mentioned Sabotai, saying "When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person. Maybe you could try doing the same thing".

What I write hear, as part of a larger community, is not necessarily what I write on my blog. I try and least be civil here (pigfucker comment nonwithstanding). :) Civility isn't my main concern on my own, individual website.

[sabotai]

What's really funny is that I made the handjob joke instead of repsonding seriously to Cam's first post because this is what I wanted to avoid. Hey, Cam rags on the liberals for not having a sense of humor, I just figured that meant he had one...

Oh well...maybe it's about time to make it official...

KIRBY PUCKETT!

[Axxon]

Originally posted by CamEdwards

What I write hear,

Good lord give me the strength...he's an on air man not a print man. :)


as part of a larger community, is not necessarily what I write on my blog. I try and least be civil here (pigfucker comment nonwithstanding). :)


I do sometimes incite even courser epithets in my daily routine. :) I wasn't sure I was even supposed to be offended considering your middle america, farm belt life; heck, it could have been a compliment.


Civility isn't my main concern on my own, individual website.

MUST RESIST. TOO EASY.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Axxon
Good lord give me the strength...he's an on air man not a print man. :)



Ugh. The only defense I can offer is that I'm writing this while I'm on the air. Must have been a Freudian slip, mom.

:eek:

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
dola: chief, please tell me who I'm personally attacking by stating that? Also, please note that I specifically mentioned Sabotai, saying "When I disagree with you, I at least try and disagree with the philosophy, not the person. Maybe you could try doing the same thing".

What I write hear, as part of a larger community, is not necessarily what I write on my blog. I try and least be civil here (pigfucker comment nonwithstanding). :) Civility isn't my main concern on my own, individual website.
In response to the last sentence, I use the immortal of words of Kent Brockman when he said, "Touche."

As for the philosophy-not-the-person thing, let m turn your question back to you -- who was I personally attacking? All I seemed to be doing was pointing out your own words to you and how those words appeared to be doing the exact opposite of what you profess as your approach to interpersonal communication at FOFC. I asked you two direction questions and offered you a piece of advice. I didn't call you any names, I simply offered an interpretation for what your message seemed to me.

As for the president's trip, I don't know if it was a good thing or not. I don't have enough information to judge that. Did it boost the troops? Was it a publicity stunt? Most things that presidents and politicians do usually are. You could ask and say the same thing about the Clinton/Reed trip as well.

[Chief Rum]

I didn't read most of the second page here because all I saw there was mostly some in-fighting between sabotai and Cam Edwards. :)

So forgive me if this has already been addressed. I just wanted to say I don't have a problem with Cam or sab taking the stances they want to on this impromptu visit to Iraq by Bush.

But what bothers me is that I have gotten the inference that sabotai makes himself out to be nonpartisan. And I call BS. Maybe he is, but in the history I have been here, I haven't seen him bashing Dems too much, but he's one of the guys just waiting to rip into Bush and Republicans. Maybe this is an unfair impression, but that is my impression.

So it bothers me when a poster puts up what I consider to be a farce of what he claims to be a nonpartisan view and then uses that false stance to accuse another poster of being too partisan.

Nothing personal, sab, that's just the way I read it.

CR

[Leonidas]

This post is about what I expected for commentary on Bush going to Baghdad (which I believe was the original topic). As I stated in my first post to it, the impact of this visit is far more than those in the west (the US mainly) will ever realize. It's great for the troops, has a certain amount of political and PR value, but those things are really secondary to what's really going on. You don't see Saddam Hussein appearing in Baghdad (or anywhere else). You don't see OBL making any public appearances.

The Arab world is really big into symbolism. They have also been bombarded with images of resistance in Irag and the dominance in the region we had gained after invading Baghdad has pretty much gone. Now, out of nowhere Bush himself appears in Baghdad. This will mean something to the average person in the Arab world, particularly in Iraq. I've already heard news reports about Iraqis rallying in the streets in defiance of the resistance movement. The message is Bush is strong, Saddam and his people weak.

Now for those playing down the courage aspect of this. I suspect those are people who don't know what it feels like to fly in a plane over an area where very recently other planes and helicoptors had been shot at and even shot down. I got to do it once myself this past spring and it's a unique experience to say the least.

I'm nervous enough taking off and landing at Hartsfield International. Try doing it when you know for fact there are people on the ground willing to take a shot at you. That's what they did on this mission. There are people around Baghdad pretty much at any given time with a MANPAD in hand ready to take a shot. Anyone flying into that willingly has some big brassy ones. And yes, that goes for Senator Clinton as well. Whatever the motivation for her trip, gotta respect the fact she did it.

[Anthony]

" Like him or not, (and lately I've been rather displeased over his general over-governmentalization and the political posturing of the senior prescription debacle,) this was probably as stunning, brilliant and gutsy of a move that we've seen out of a President in our life time."

people just don't get it. this was one of the riskiest things a president or head of country has ever done in my opinion and i'm sure in the opinions of many other educated people.

we've long become accustomed to images of the authorities and power figures sitting comfortably in their safe offices in DC writing legislature while the real men go out with gun in hand and do the dirty work in the line of fire. well, our president walked out in the line of fire. heads of state just don't do that.

it was a great way to show the terrorists that our capabilities are far greater than they can imagine. it was a very brave move, we showed complete lack of respect for the threat of the terrorists.

contrast what Bush did with that pussy Hussein hiding out while his country was being bombed, and has been nowhere in the public eye since then.

[PilotMan]

I have the feeling that the world has lost perspective on death.

Heat was a major factor this summer, but not nearly the newsmaker that Iraq was. Yet look at these numbers:

Dates Total / In Combat
Deaths since 5/01/03 (the list) 297 / 186
Deaths since war began 436 / 299
Total Wounded
2444

and
Estimated Civilian Deaths

Min 7918 Max 9749 all courtesy of http://www.antiwar.com/ewens/casualties.html

Compare that with this:
France was worst affected in the summer, with 14,802 recorded deaths, as temperatures soared to 40?C over a two-week period. On 10 August, temperatures reaching over 37.7?C in London are estimated to have claimed 900 lives, with fatalities across the UK reaching 2,045.
Some experts believe that the 35,000 figure for the whole of Europe could be far higher as some EU states have so far failed to estimate the numbers of deaths. August was the hottest month on record for the northern hemisphere.

Last I looked death was the same all around the world. Yet it seems the death that involves the US is much, much more important, as far as world politics are concerned.

This is one of the things that bug me about the media and their ability to influence perceptions.

[Anthony]

i find it laughable that Bush comes under fire for his role in the war, yet the leaders of France get a free pass for dropping the ball on the heat-wave deaths.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
But what bothers me is that I have gotten the inference that sabotai makes himself out to be nonpartisan. And I call BS. Maybe he is, but in the history I have been here, I haven't seen him bashing Dems too much, but he's one of the guys just waiting to rip into Bush and Republicans. Maybe this is an unfair impression, but that is my impression.

So it bothers me when a poster puts up what I consider to be a farce of what he claims to be a nonpartisan view and then uses that false stance to accuse another poster of being too partisan.

Nothing personal, sab, that's just the way I read it.

CR

Not taken personally....f'n bastard. ;)

But seriously, every now and then I do think to myself that on here, I do tend to "bash" the conservatives more than I do the liberals. To be honest, I don't know why. There's other places on the 'net where I am overwhelmingly bashig the liberals more than the conservative.

What I think the reason is 1) The board, overall, leans more to the right than the left, so when this stuff comes up, it tends to be more conservative stuff I don't like than liberal stuff I don't like. 2) By the time I get to the liberal stuff, Cam, Dutch, SkyDog and the rest have already done what I was going to do. So saying what I was going to say, which is what they already did, would just be redundant.

And maybe you missed where me and Cam actually agreed on something (that PETA members should be beaten)? ;) Or my attacks on the PCism that the left constantly is pushing down our throats. Or how the social programs that the government tries to do, which are mostly left-initiated, end up just causing far more damage than before.

I could go on about federal health care, which I strongly oppose. Or how I could talk about the failure of the welfare system or social security. I could talk about how the left far too oftan sees the solution to any problem as "just throw more money at it and it'll fix itself" but that they need government control over it. I could talk about how the "tex reform" that the democrats propose would just make the system 10 times worse....

But it just doesn't seem like those issues come up as much as the conservative issues that I don't like. And for the record (since you said you didn't read the second page, so you might have missed it), I like and fully support Bush going to Iraq to lift the spirits of our troops and the people of Iraq. I realize that that's an imprtant thing to do. The only thing that I disagreed with was that this would demoralize the terrorists. But I in no way would suggest (and I'm sorry it was take that way) that this was bad move because of it.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by sabotai
Not taken personally....f'n bastard. ;)

But seriously, every now and then I do think to myself that on here, I do tend to "bash" the conservatives more than I do the liberals. To be honest, I don't know why. There's other places on the 'net where I am overwhelmingly bashig the liberals more than the conservative.

What I think the reason is 1) The board, overall, leans more to the right than the left, so when this stuff comes up, it tends to be more conservative stuff I don't like than liberal stuff I don't like. 2) By the time I get to the liberal stuff, Cam, Dutch, SkyDog and the rest have already done what I was going to do. So saying what I was going to say, which is what they already did, would just be redundant.

And maybe you missed where me and Cam actually agreed on something (that PETA members should be beaten)? ;) Or my attacks on the PCism that the left constantly is pushing down our throats. Or how the social programs that the government tries to do, which are mostly left-initiated, end up just causing far more damage than before.

I could go on about federal health care, which I strongly oppose. Or how I could talk about the failure of the welfare system or social security. I could talk about how the left far too oftan sees the solution to any problem as "just throw more money at it and it'll fix itself" but that they need government control over it. I could talk about how the "tex reform" that the democrats propose would just make the system 10 times worse....

But it just doesn't seem like those issues come up as much as the conservative issues that I don't like. And for the record (since you said you didn't read the second page, so you might have missed it), I like and fully support Bush going to Iraq to lift the spirits of our troops and the people of Iraq. I realize that that's an imprtant thing to do. The only thing that I disagreed with was that this would demoralize the terrorists. But I in no way would suggest (and I'm sorry it was take that way) that this was bad move because of it.

The amazing thing is there's a message board where I'm actually a Green Party member. :)

Sorry for being so snippy yesterday Sabotai.

[sabotai]

That truely is amazing Cam. ;)

Sorry if you took anything I said about you personally. I didn't mean to come off that way.

....Should we hug?

[Dutch]

The amazing thing is there's a message board where I'm actually a Green Party member.

I think I'm going to throw up. :)

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Dutch
I think I'm going to throw up. :)

you know, recycyled vomit is actually a great alternative energy source.:D

[Glengoyne]

Now that I read this nearly dead thread, I feel the need to add my two cents.

I saw the visit on the news, and thought "Wow, he went into Baghdad. That is pretty cool. The Commander in chief waltzes right into the Viper's den." I also thought it was a nice gesture for the troops. Then the vitriol started, people bashing it as a purely political maneuver, and that was just my Union loving Whacko Liberal family. I said "My goodness, people. Do you really believe anything a president does is not, or cannot be construed as politically motivated.

As for the Republicans bashing or not bashing Clinton for visiting Kosovo. I'd have to say I certainly wasn't bashing him. I'd say most reasonable people didn't bash President Clinton. I'd also say that reasonable people shouldn't bash President Bush in this case. If you want to bitch about the President at least do it on a topic where you have some real ground to stand on. I am filing the "Bush flies to Iraq to boost his image" opinions right next to all the idiotic "Blood for Oil" opinions.