Another Colorado Football Rape Victim comes forward

[ScottVib]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/?cnn=yes

In this case it was the female place kicker they had Katie Hnida.

Absolutely sickining. If there is a better example of a lack of institutional control, I'm not sure what it is.

[Franklinnoble]

That's f'ed up, man.

What really bothers me, though, is that CU is NOT the only school to use prostitiution as a recruiting tool.

[MrBug708]

Think Barnett's college future is done? I'd say so.

I hope she names the guy who did if it's true.

[cthomer5000]

What really bothers me, though, is that CU is NOT the only school to use prostitiution as a recruiting tool.
I'd imagine it's pretty much standard practice.

[GoldenEagle]

Think Barnett's college future is done? I'd say so.

I hope she names the guy who did if it's true.

Doubt it. Barnett is a good football coach but if these acquisitions are true then he is a sorry ass person.

[albionmoonlight]

Assuming all of these various allegations are true:

1.) Everyone who is at Colarado on athletic scholarship should be allowed to either transfer without penalty or to remain at Colarado for free and not have to play sports.

2.) Going forward, Colarado should have all schoarships in all sports revoked for the next ten years.

3.) The NCAA should issue a statement saying that it is "not unsporting" to run up the score against Colarado teams for the next decade.


That may actually encourage University presidents and athletic directors to pay attention to what their teams are doing.

[Eaglesfan27]

This is sickening and I hope that the NCAA lays down some severe sanctions against CU assuming that the charges can be proved.

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.

[corbes]

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.

Glad to hear that, Eaglesfan. Everything that happens on a team IS the coach's responsibility.

[Eaglesfan27]

Glad to hear that, Eaglesfan. Everything that happens on a team IS the coach's responsibility.

I agree 100%

[corbes]

Assuming all of these various allegations are true:

1.) Everyone who is at Colarado on athletic scholarship should be allowed to either transfer without penalty or to remain at Colarado for free and not have to play sports.

2.) Going forward, Colarado should have all schoarships in all sports revoked for the next ten years.

3.) The NCAA should issue a statement saying that it is "not unsporting" to run up the score against Colarado teams for the next decade.


That may actually encourage University presidents and athletic directors to pay attention to what their teams are doing.

The more I think about this, albion, the more these steps would be a good place to start. This is most assuredly lack of institutional control. If Barnett doesn't know it's going on -- exactly.

[ScottVib]

This is sickening and I hope that the NCAA lays down some severe sanctions against CU assuming that the charges can be proved.

We had a female kicker on my high school team in the early 90's and even though we had a lot of immature guys on the team, nothing like that ever happened to her - in part cause most of our team genuinely feared our coach kicking us off the team and he had great control of the team.
As this stuff comes out if it can be proved to be true, I think they are almost leaving the NCAA with no choice but to seek the Death Penalty for the CU football program and force them to start from scratch, as SMU has been forced to do.

Stuff happening at practice to a player is completely unacceptable (and the coach takes direct responsibility for that stuff), having a recruiting assistant placing calls to an escort service (note the assistant claims they were for personal use), the other rape accusations, and the revelations of several schools using strippers (and I know its more common then that) as recruiting aids, is almost forcing the NCAA's hand into making the Buffs an example and trying to reign in the out of control recruiting behaviors.

The allegations that have come out prove a clear pattern of a lack of institutional control, Barnett, and others including the AD and President of the university will face immense pressure to step down and CU will have to do something to "start over".

The Hnida stuff just disgusts me, one of the most disturbing football stories I've ever read.

[ScottVib]

The more I think about this, albion, the more these steps would be a good place to start. This is most assuredly lack of institutional control. If Barnett doesn't know it's going on -- exactly.
dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

[Eaglesfan27]

dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

Again, I agree 100%. The coach IS responsible for everything that happens on the team, but the coach's responsibility does not absolve the players' of their own personal responsibility. They should face penalties (such as the normal transfer penalties) for their part in the negative behavior which appears to be prevalent at CU.

[corbes]

dola,

Personally while I think CU should get the death penalty. The players were part of the climate here that lead to the problem, and I wouldn't waive the one year sit down rule for them. Making the players have to sit down a year as well might give recruits a chance to pause and wonder should I sign with the school using the strippers and/or coed escorts, knowing I may have to sit down a year to be punished should they get caught... or should I go to the "cleaner" school, and not run the risk of losing a year to an out of control institution that got caught.

If I were actually making a recommendation, I would put Colorado football on the death penalty (for five years, minimum). That's the easiest decision to make.

Colorado's football players should indeed be held to the one year sit down rule. I guess, if they choose to stay instead of transfer, their scholarships should be paid for the remainder of their four years.

(Edit: No, I change my mind. They are part of letting this happen. Their scholarships should be immediately revoked. A scholarship is a privilege, not a right.)

While it seems unfair for Colorado's other athletes to suffer as well, the athletic department should be punished for allowing such action in the football program. At the very least, the athletic director and the university president should be out. I hold them directly responsible for such misconduct. Barnett, to say the least, should never hold an NCAA position again.

If I can think of a fair way to shut down all Colorado athletics, I'll do it...

[Samdari]

As this stuff comes out if it can be proved to be true, I think they are almost leaving the NCAA with no choice but to seek the Death Penalty for the CU football program and force them to start from scratch, as SMU has been forced to do.

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.

[corbes]

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.

Lack of institutional control is the main criteria, correct?

[ScottVib]

Except that SMU got the death penalty for paying football players - which is against NCAA rules. As has been discussed ad infinitum here, breaking the law is not.
I was attacking this from a lack of institutional control prespective. There shouldn't have to be a NCAA bylaw that says you can't use sex or rape as recruiting practices. Or that you can't assault a teammate during practice.

[corbes]

dola-

and I'd let colleges pay players from now until the end of time before I allowed one sexual assault, let alone rampant misconduct.

[Noop]

Well I have to say this is pretty shocking...*Note to self stay far away from Colorado* I'm surprised that one has decided to take swipes at other schools.... so I will.... Look at whats happening or happened at Florida State, Miami, The SEC, etc? Poor poor Colorado.... ;) In case you can't read thru this i was joking of course.

:)

noop

[Samdari]

dola-

and I'd let colleges pay players from now until the end of time before I allowed one sexual assault, let alone rampant misconduct.

The law is supposed to outlaw those things. The NCAA was set up to establish a set of rules for intercollegiate comptetition that were not covered by the law. I do not think that the NCAA needs to set up rules for everything that is currently against the law. I do think that they should set up some sort of rule applying uniform penalties for being convicted (CONVICTED!) of a crime.

Think about it, do we really want the NCAA enforcing criminal codes? These people are incompetent at what they do, can you imagine how badly they would botch an actual criminal investigation and trial? They should certainly not cave to hysteria like these stories are creating, and punish people for what is published in newspapers and on the internet (especially given how "get it first" has replaced "get it right" as the journalistic credo in this country).

Let's let the people of Colorado, who fund this atrocity, deal with it. People who's guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished appropriately (and harshly). Barnett WILL be fired, and the administration there will try to change the culture.

[NoMyths]

This makes me incredibly sad. I think the stats are that 1 out of every 4 women has been sexually assaulted. Things like this really bring that home, and make me sad and angry. The first woman to ever score in D1 football was allegedly raped by a teammate...that's a stat that just...ugh, no words.

[ScottVib]

No one is asking the NCAA to enforce criminal code. They are asking the NCAA to enforce it's institutional code standard. If a college has a climate such that seems to exist at Colorado (and by no means do I think Colorado is the only school with strippers and sex for recruits), the NCAA's mission is ensure there isn't a "lack of institutional" control.

The NCAA's job is to police the schools... the Colorado allegations are the most egregious allegations to rock the NCAA in a long time. If they don't show a lack of institutional control I don't know what does. It's this kind of thing the NCAA is supposed to police and deal with. They are supposed to deal with the college, when the college lacks the control to deal with itself. These allegations show a pattern that illustrates a lack of institutional control over the Colorado football program, and it's my opinion that the Death Penalty for the program is appropriate in this case.

[Noop]

Scott who is your team in college football?

[ScottVib]

UConn. And trust me they are anything but perfect. Had a player busted for obstruction of justice last year. (He washed his sheets, which were actually evidence in a rape case against an acquantaince of his, he's no longer with the team, and has transferred to Sacramento State)

[Easy Mac]

UConn.
No seriously, he said football team :)

[GoldenEagle]

What comes with the death penalty again?

[Easy Mac]

3 less strippers and a football team.

[Franklinnoble]

UConn. And trust me they are anything but perfect. Had a player busted for obstruction of justice last year. (He washed his sheets, which were actually evidence in a rape case against an acquantaince of his, he's no longer with the team, and has transferred to Sacramento State)

That's interesting. The office where I'm working right now is about 1/2 a mile from Sac. State.

And the football program here is pretty pathetic...

[ScottVib]

What comes with the death penalty again?
Program shut down for at least 1 full year (no recruiting no nothing). Lots of fines (the fines were so crippling SMU cancelled a 2nd football season on its own).

SMU ultimately restarted the program and had nothing but first year players.

[corbes]

The law is supposed to outlaw those things. The NCAA was set up to establish a set of rules for intercollegiate comptetition that were not covered by the law. I do not think that the NCAA needs to set up rules for everything that is currently against the law. I do think that they should set up some sort of rule applying uniform penalties for being convicted (CONVICTED!) of a crime.

Think about it, do we really want the NCAA enforcing criminal codes? These people are incompetent at what they do, can you imagine how badly they would botch an actual criminal investigation and trial? They should certainly not cave to hysteria like these stories are creating, and punish people for what is published in newspapers and on the internet (especially given how "get it first" has replaced "get it right" as the journalistic credo in this country).

Let's let the people of Colorado, who fund this atrocity, deal with it. People who's guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished appropriately (and harshly). Barnett WILL be fired, and the administration there will try to change the culture.

I'm not saying that the NCAA should be in charge of the criminal investigations, although those investigations should surely follow in the wake of any allegations or charges that are made.

I'm saying that the NCAA should be in the business of assessing whether or not the institution (Colorado) has allowed a set of conditions to exist which would create this sort of behavior -- especially if those in charge (coaching staff, athletic department) claim not to know what is going on.

[SackAttack]

Here's what I want to know.

Did this young lady (Katie Hnida?) seek the publicity? Was she actively looking to step forward and reveal who she was and what happened to her? Or is her name just being used because of the whole 'female kicker' on the football team bit? IOW, because she'd be fairly easy to identify, she isn't being shielded?

I ask because I find it fairly interesting that, despite Colorado's vaunted rape shield laws, she's been identified, and yet there's that near-obsession with protecting the identity of Kobe's accuser.

I'm not trying to contrast the one or the other, mind you. Casting no aspersions on the validity of either claim. I'm simply curious as to whether Ms. Hnida willfully waived her rights here, or if there's a double standard being applied.

[SirFozzie]

she came forward because the existing case kinda dragged her back into the hell that Colorado was for her.. (or at least that's the gist I get from the article)

[BishopMVP]

It appears from the article she isn't even pressing charges or revealing the name of the player, so I don't think that you can compare it to the Kobe case.

[ScottVib]

She's not even suing the University, so it's not like she's doing it for financial gain.

[stevew]

Pretty sad how this program has deteriorated from Mccartney to Neuheisel to Barnett.

[bertogarce]

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???

[John Galt]

Here's what I want to know.

Did this young lady (Katie Hnida?) seek the publicity? Was she actively looking to step forward and reveal who she was and what happened to her? Or is her name just being used because of the whole 'female kicker' on the football team bit? IOW, because she'd be fairly easy to identify, she isn't being shielded?

I ask because I find it fairly interesting that, despite Colorado's vaunted rape shield laws, she's been identified, and yet there's that near-obsession with protecting the identity of Kobe's accuser.

I'm not trying to contrast the one or the other, mind you. Casting no aspersions on the validity of either claim. I'm simply curious as to whether Ms. Hnida willfully waived her rights here, or if there's a double standard being applied.

She came forward and this is not a criminal case so the laws don't apply.

[Abe Sargent]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/?cnn=yes

In this case it was the female place kicker they had Katie Hnida.

Absolutely sickining. If there is a better example of a lack of institutional control, I'm not sure what it is.


Louisiana (Was it Monroe? Lafeyette?) where the 15 year old genius prodigy was gang banged by the football team. That's where the worse example is.

-Anxiety

[Desnudo]

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???

The coach brought those players in in the first place. The coach sets personal standards and expectations that his players are supposed to live up to. There is no one more directly responsible for the day to day behavior of his players than the coach. The way he's handled it hasn't spoken well for him, and makes the accusations all the more believable.

[BishopMVP]

Louisiana (Was it Monroe? Lafeyette?) where the 15 year old genius prodigy was gang banged by the football team. That's where the worse example is.

-Anxiety
I thought it was UAB.

[Buccaneer]

CU = latest NCAA and media whipping boy. Most other D1 schools = glad the spotlight is not on them (for now).

[Leonidas]

I keep having visions of that school in that stupid Scott Bakula/Sinbad movie where they went out of control, cut the team, and started a new team with only walkons. This team needs to go.

What I can't help but wonder is how much of the same stuff is common at other schools. I bet at least half the stuff we've heard so far happens at several Top 20 teams. Granted, there seems to be a certain out of control element here, and I think that comes directly from lack of control from the staff.

ANother funny thing is all along I kept thinking Neuheisal was responsible for UC getting a bad rap a few years ago. If anything, things have gone from bad to much worse since he left. And this from Barnett, a guy everyone thought was squeaky clean coming in from Northwestern.

[Chubby]

I keep having visions of that school in that stupid Scott Bakula/Sinbad movie where they went out of control, cut the team, and started a new team with only walkons. This team needs to go.

Unnescessary Roughness was a GREAT movie! Kathy Ireland as the kicker {drool}

[Leonidas]

Unnescessary Roughness was a GREAT movie! Kathy Ireland as the kicker <drool>

Oh my God, you're right. I completely forgot they had the chick kicker. Accidental irony is possibly the best kind.

[Chubby]

The coach brought those players in in the first place. The coach sets personal standards and expectations that his players are supposed to live up to. There is no one more directly responsible for the day to day behavior of his players than the coach. The way he's handled it hasn't spoken well for him, and makes the accusations all the more believable.


Uhh actually the players are directly responsible for their own actions. The coach has no control over what the players do for 75% of the day. He controls practice/film session, that's it.

[ScottVib]

These allegations sicken me. However, I feel the need to repeat some comments I've seen on some of our CU message boards.

When people keep refering to a lack of institutional control by Coach Barnett, I want to know how you control something like these allegations. Rape is disturbing and wrong and that is why it is against the law of society. Not everything is in Barnett's control. He can't decide who someone dates, if they can have sex, and I am positive he does not want any of his players raping anyone. Players would have been punished, schollies lost, suspensions, recruits denied admission. I am not sure what Barnett can do about something like this now. I think it is horrible if all of these allegations are true, but I don't know how it becomes Barnett's fault. If he is hiding anything or letting this go on with knowledge of it, then he should be fired immediately. I don't believe that is the case. In fact, no one knew of the latest allegations until recently. How does Barnett control that???
The verbal harrassment, throwing balls at her head, and even sexual assault (groping her crotch and breasts) took place at practice. That directly goes to the responsibility of the coach.

Furthermore the harrassment was actually brought to light last year. And Barnett was confronted on the matter before Hnida left Colorado.

At least with respect to Hnida's accusations, these were directly under the coaches control.

Similarly actions during the players recruiting visits ultimately fall under the coaches responsibility.

[Leonidas]

Uhh actually the players are directly responsible for their own actions. The coach has no control over what the players do for 75% of the day. He controls practice/film session, that's it.

Yes, but the coach chooses the player he recruits, and he sets a standard of behavior for the players to follow. I have studied leadership for several years and people do take cues from their leaders on how to act. It can be both verbal and non-verbal. The best thing for a leader is to set the example by his or her actions. And if you allow individuals to take advantage of certain situations by "cutting them slack," you'll wind up with an epidemic of bad behavior.

If the coach has little responsibility for his/her players, then how do you explain why some programs have so many problems (Colorado, Oklahoma under Barry Switzer, Miami under Dennis Erickson, anyone under Jim Harrick, FSU under Bobby Bowden, etc) while other programs seem to have comparitively few problems (Duke under Coach K, Penn State under Joe Paterno, UCLA under John Wooden, etc.)?

There will always be individual examples of problem children in a program. Coach K had Corey Maggete, Joe Pa has had recent problems with some players, but by and large programs under these guys have a reputation for being clean. While guys like Switzer and Harrick ran outlaw programs and everyone knew it. And the police blotter shows that. By and large the coach picks the players for the team and sets the example. The coach also has an obligation to take care of these situations before they get out of hand. Clearly Barnett has not taken control of this team. There are more than one or two bad apples here. This guy is recruiting lower class human beings, and is not holding them accountable.

[Chubby]

The verbal harrassment, throwing balls at her head, and even sexual assault (groping her crotch and breasts) took place at practice. That directly goes to the responsibility of the coach.

Furthermore the harrassment was actually brought to light last year. And Barnett was confronted on the matter before Hnida left Colorado.

At least with respect to Hnida's accusations, these were directly under the coaches control.

Similarly actions during the players recruiting visits ultimately fall under the coaches responsibility.

I agree with you about the coaches responsibility for stuff that happens at practice. I also think that any situation brought to the coaches attention is now his "problem" to get to the bottom of and make sure the right thing is done.

Recruiting visits on the other hand...

When I went on my visits for lacrosse, this is what they basically all were:

- Meet coaches. Get food waiver. Talk about team stuff, grades, the college, and anything else you want to talk that neither of you already know from previous discussions (which usually isn't much)

- Meet your host. Do the nickel tour of the campus. (this is usually where mom and dad go to the hotel for the night).

- Hang out at the host's apartment/dormroom til you go out. You almost ALWAYS go out. I don't care what sport it is, the hosts job is to show you a good time. The coach really doesn't have any responsibility here. Yes, it's his job to tell the host not to do anything bad but he doesn't have any control over it any more than he does when his players go out drinking any other time.

The coach shouldn't be telling the host to do illegal stuff (go out drinking, find groupies for the recruit to fuck, etc...) but he doesn't have any control over whether those things happen so I can't hold the coach responsible.

[Noop]

CU = latest NCAA and media whipping boy. Most other D1 schools = glad the spotlight is not on them (for now).
Where is the backlash for this statement? I said the same thing when the media was jumping all over Florida State's case... yet no one says a thing to you... interesting...

[Chubby]

Yes, but the coach chooses the player he recruits, and he sets a standard of behavior for the players to follow. I have studied leadership for several years and people do take cues from their leaders on how to act. It can be both verbal and non-verbal. The best thing for a leader is to set the example by his or her actions. And if you allow individuals to take advantage of certain situations by "cutting them slack," you'll wind up with an epidemic of bad behavior.

If the coach has little responsibility for his/her players, then how do you explain why some programs have so many problems (Colorado, Oklahoma under Barry Switzer, Miami under Dennis Erickson, anyone under Jim Harrick, FSU under Bobby Bowden, etc) while other programs seem to have comparitively few problems (Duke under Coach K, Penn State under Joe Paterno, UCLA under John Wooden, etc.)?

There will always be individual examples of problem children in a program. Coach K had Corey Maggete, Joe Pa has had recent problems with some players, but by and large programs under these guys have a reputation for being clean. While guys like Switzer and Harrick ran outlaw programs and everyone knew it. And the police blotter shows that. By and large the coach picks the players for the team and sets the example. The coach also has an obligation to take care of these situations before they get out of hand. Clearly Barnett has not taken control of this team. There are more than one or two bad apples here. This guy is recruiting lower class human beings, and is not holding them accountable.

Well I can comment on JoePa since I lived there for a year. Only because the teams have been bad recentlly has stuff not been "pushed under the rug".

Sure the coach can lead by example and punish players when they break the rules but he doesn't control them.

By that logic, the coach should go to jail if the player breaks the law.

[Chubby]

Where is the backlash for this statement? I said the same thing when the media was jumping all over Florida State's case... yet no one says a thing to you... interesting...


Because it's "ok" to bash certain school and FSU is traditionally poster child A for bad behavior. Doesn't mean the situations are any different...

[Noop]

I agree with you about the coaches responsibility for stuff that happens at practice. I also think that any situation brought to the coaches attention is now his "problem" to get to the bottom of and make sure the right thing is done.

Recruiting visits on the other hand...

When I went on my visits for lacrosse, this is what they basically all were:

- Meet coaches. Get food waiver. Talk about team stuff, grades, the college, and anything else you want to talk that neither of you already know from previous discussions (which usually isn't much)

- Meet your host. Do the nickel tour of the campus. (this is usually where mom and dad go to the hotel for the night).

- Hang out at the host's apartment/dormroom til you go out. You almost ALWAYS go out. I don't care what sport it is, the hosts job is to show you a good time. The coach really doesn't have any responsibility here. Yes, it's his job to tell the host not to do anything bad but he doesn't have any control over it any more than he does when his players go out drinking any other time.

The coach shouldn't be telling the host to do illegal stuff (go out drinking, find groupies for the recruit to fuck, etc...) but he doesn't have any control over whether those things happen so I can't hold the coach responsible.
You forgot for the prize recruits you get offered a house, car, money etc. I bet if they did a study on how many inner city kids parent who get new homes when their child signs with a 6 star program they'd come up with some interesting stats...

[Chubby]

You forgot for the prize recruits you get offered a house, car, money etc. I bet if they did a study on how many inner city kids parent who get new homes when their child signs with a 6 star program they'd come up with some interesting stats...

Well I was talking about my visits, and believe there was no cash or houses being thrown around for lacrosse :) Tho I don't doubt it in the least, especially for football and basketball. The point was, if the coach has no control over the recruiting visits for piddly sports like lax what makes you think he'd have any control over say football where the # of recruits is much MUCH bigger.

[Leonidas]

Well I can comment on JoePa since I lived there for a year. Only because the teams have been bad recentlly has stuff not been "pushed under the rug".

Sure the coach can lead by example and punish players when they break the rules but he doesn't control them.

By that logic, the coach should go to jail if the player breaks the law.

I don't know where you're reading into this that my logic says coaches should go to jail. My point is that as a leader you are much more responsible for the actions of your unit than to simply say "Since I can't be with them 24 hours a day I have no control so it's not my fault."

It is the coach's fault to an extent, but certainly not to a legal extent. The coach offered that person a place on the team and on the school. The coach has an obligation to set a certain example for the players to follow. If the player does not follow the example and breaks the rules they should be firmly punished accordingly. Clearly this is not happening at Colorado. It does happen at other places. But the individual player, as with all of us, has to take legal responsibility for his or her own actions.

I understand what you said about recruiting athletes and sometimes a coach can be fooled by a recruit. But a coach can set and follow certain standards to lower the risks. Coach K's thing is he gets to know the parents, and absolutely refuses to recruit an athlete that he's not comfortable with the player's upbringing. You won't ever see an Amare Stoudamire type (who's Mother was in jail) play at Duke. Stoudamire seems to have turned out very well in the NBA, but Coach K has his own form of risk management and he just won't take a guy with that kind of baggage.

John Wooden was the same way, and say what you like about the guy, but Bobby Knight is the same way as well. Jerk that he is, he will not recruit thugs if he can help it. Funny thing with Knight is the discipline problems are never with his kids, but with him.

Nobody can run the perfect program, and no the coaches don't have total responsibility for an individual's actions. But when you have several cases of bad behavior in one place under one guy you have a pretty clear indicator this guy has no control over the problem and is failing in his responsilities as the leader.

Let me put it another way. What if you had a daughter, and she joined the Army. And in her company she was harrassed by several soldiers. What if she went to the Company CO and complained to him. He takes her statement, decides it's just and individual or two and is out of his control. Then that girls gets raped by one or two of these guys. Wouldn't you be ready to take this up with your Congressman or anyone else in a position to take action? If your daughter went to CU and was raped after making complaints about the program to people in authority who can take action wouldn't you be ready to kill somebody? Wouldn't you think those in authority need to be held accountable?

The coach, as a leader, has an obligation to exercise a certain amount of control over his team. It is not complete or omnipotent control, but clearly Coach Barnett has not done what is appropriate at this program (assuming the allegations are true, and there are too many to think it is just coincidence).

[Chubby]

Let me put it another way. What if you had a daughter, and she joined the Army. And in her company she was harrassed by several soldiers. What if she went to the Company CO and complained to him. He takes her statement, decides it's just and individual or two and is out of his control.



STOP right there. Right there you have brought up exactly what I SAID the coach was responsible for.

If the coach knows what's going on, it's a completely different story. I've already said that.

There is a BIG difference between players getting recruits laid, and the coach knowing the players are paying for strippers to be at recruit parties. The coach is not responsible in the 1st instance but is in the latter.

[The Afoci]

Chubby, you are telling me that all of us know these things are going on but the coaches don't?

What people are saying is that this happens, and the coaches must take a proactive stance against it if it is to stop. They won't until many schools are punished for it though because right now it is a needed recruiting tool and if one school didn't do it, the other schools would.

[AgPete]

This is sad, sad news. I felt so sorry for that girl when I read this article on CNN's website. Head should roll for this. Athletes should lose their careers and head coaches should be kicked out of football. Of course, nothing will probably happen, but damn do I feel sorry for that poor girl whose only goal was to make her favorite college football team and kick the winning field goal. Sad stuff, I don't know how you dads out there are able to sleep at night knowing scum like the players who groped or raped this poor girl are out there.

[Chubby]

Chubby, you are telling me that all of us know these things are going on but the coaches don't?

What people are saying is that this happens, and the coaches must take a proactive stance against it if it is to stop. They won't until many schools are punished for it though because right now it is a needed recruiting tool and if one school didn't do it, the other schools would.

Specify exactly what you're talking about and I'll respond. Sluts for recruits?

[dawgfan]

Any coach that doesn't have a network of people that relay information to him about what his players are up to when he's not around is a coach that's going to have discipline problems.

It's impossible to know what all of your players are doing at any one time as a coach, but you don't need to - you need just enough info and let the players know that you have that info to make them pause and re-think what they do on their own time if they feel it's possible coach might find out about it.

I find it hard to believe that Barney had no idea about any of this - the rape allegations, the harrasment of Hnidia, the strippers on recruiting visits, etc. If he didn't, he should've...

[The Afoci]

Specify exactly what you're talking about and I'll respond. Sluts for recruits?

Sure, sluts for recruits, money paid to recruits, underage drinking and such. I am not saying I am against all this, but to clear the coach of wrong doing because he didn't order it is very shady. If someone knows something is going on but does nothing to stop it, they must be prepared to face the punishment when it all comes down...

[Chubby]

I find it hard to believe that Barney had no idea about any of this - the rape allegations, the harrasment of Hnidia, the strippers on recruiting visits, etc. If he didn't, he should've...

You're right, he should have. That is part of his job. However, just because you hear something doesn't mean you act on it without finding out all the info 1st.

I don't even really care about CU, but let's bring up a hypothetical...

Coach Z hears that his star HB is a dope smokin fiend. He confronts him on it, and the player says he doesn't do drugs. His drug tests come back clean and Coach Z has never seen anything the player "under the influence" of pot. Now lets' say said HB wraps his car around a telephone poll while high. Is it the coaches fault? I get the feeling that a lot of you would say yes while I don't feel it is. If the coach did everything he could that is.

As far as CU. Doofus "should" have known what was going on if it was as bad as it is being reported. Yeah, I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't. The rape allegations and the harassament of the kicker are very very bad for the coach to not know about, if he had found out and dealt with the situations then he'd be absolved of responsibility but it doesn't appear that he has.

As far as the strippers go, I personally don't see what the big deal is. As long as no laws were broken (i.e. being paid for sex), who cares? On my visits I got taken out to the bar and got licqored up and there was hot girls at the bar where I was obviously under. The strippers to me isn't an issue, the other things are.

[Chubby]

Sure, sluts for recruits, money paid to recruits, underage drinking and such. I am not saying I am against all this, but to clear the coach of wrong doing because he didn't order it is very shady. If someone knows something is going on but does nothing to stop it, they must be prepared to face the punishment when it all comes down...

If he doesn't know about it, how can he fix it? I'm not saying Barnett didn't know, just bringing it up in a general coaching context.

[AgPete]

Sure, sluts for recruits, money paid to recruits, underage drinking and such. I am not saying I am against all this, but to clear the coach of wrong doing because he didn't order it is very shady. If someone knows something is going on but does nothing to stop it, they must be prepared to face the punishment when it all comes down...

Barnett is lying through his teeth. I know you can't stereotype people based on their careers, but when I heard the girl's father was a Major and Army surgeon, he gained a lot more credibility in my eyes than a sleezy college football coach. Her father says he approached Barnett and was shrugged off. I completely believe him knowing how a lot of college football programs work. People need to pay for what they did to that poor girl! :mad:

[tucker342]

Assuming all of these various allegations are true:

1.) Everyone who is at Colarado on athletic scholarship should be allowed to either transfer without penalty or to remain at Colarado for free and not have to play sports.

2.) Going forward, Colarado should have all schoarships in all sports revoked for the next ten years.

3.) The NCAA should issue a statement saying that it is "not unsporting" to run up the score against Colarado teams for the next decade.


That may actually encourage University presidents and athletic directors to pay attention to what their teams are doing.

2 words, DEATH PENALTY

that would clean up the program

[tucker342]

dola-

If he doesn't know about it, how can he fix it? I'm not saying Barnett didn't know, just bringing it up in a general coaching context.

It's a coaches job to make sure his players don't do stupid shit... So even if he didn't know, he should've known...

I know that doesn't sound very fair, but we're talking about some pretty severe allagations(sp?) here. A coach should know what is going on at a party for football recruits.

[Chubby]

dola-



It's a coaches job to make sure his players don't do stupid shit... So even if he didn't know, he should've known...

I know that doesn't sound very fair, but we're talking about some pretty severe allagations(sp?) here. A coach should know what is going on at a party for football recruits.


NO, it's not. As my example above shows, you'd be in favor of the coach getting blamed when a player does something out of his control. A coach has no more control over his players outside of practice than any other teacher at the university does. That's exactly what the coach is, a teacher.

Then you obviously have never been to such a party or been recruited for a sport. I'm telling you from experience, they don't.

[Draft Dodger]

happened to catch a snippet of Barnett being interviewed on TV this morning...he has been doing some vigorous, OJ-style "investigating" (ie asking some players if anything happened). Amazingly, he hasn't been able to find one shred of "evidence".

so, I guess we can stop talking about the rape, because it definitely didn't happen.

[The Afoci]

If he doesn't know about it, how can he fix it? I'm not saying Barnett didn't know, just bringing it up in a general coaching context.

Okay Chubby, you know it happens, I know it happpens, everyone knows it happens, except the coach? Come on. He knows it is going on. If he honestly wants it to stop, he has to specifically say and look out for the things he doesn't want them to do. Just because he doesn't tell someone to do it doesn't mean he isn't responsible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Off the beaten path here but ... is an NCAA "death penalty" even an option at this point under the rules? Somewhere in the back of my mind, I thought there had to be X number of violations in Y period of time before that step could be taken.

Now I'm not sure whether UC is within whatever X & Y are, if so then obviously it becomes a possibility. But for some reason I'm thinking that the NCAA rules do not allow for a school to face that particular sanction for a single investigation, regardless of how many incidents occurred.

Anybody know the ins & outs of the punishment rules & whether something like I'm talking about comes into play?

[sterlingice]

Where is the backlash for this statement? I said the same thing when the media was jumping all over Florida State's case... yet no one says a thing to you... interesting...
If you could look past the giant chip on your shoulder, you'd see it's because schools like Nebraska and Florida State (yes, you get lumped in with them) have had some recent brushes with the NCAA whereas this is really the first time Colorado has seen anything like this in the past few years. You've admitted to NCAA violations whereas this is still just a media firestorm.

SI

[sterlingice]

Once, just once, I'd like for someone to open their mind up to the possibility that this didn't happen. I was listening to Kietzman yesterday (KC local sports talk) and I just had to turn it off. Not because of what he said, his segment was great- he brought up many of the points below and was pretty skeptical, but because of the callers that followed. To understand why he he doubts these claims, you have to look at his K-State roots. He disputed the allegations of Ell Roberson that were the focus of the bowl game broadcast. And, lo and behold, they turned out to be completely false and just a giant media circus. So he has some bias going in, but on an issue like this, that almost seems necessary.

It's an easy time to pile on CU and this may end up being true. But, it seems like, at this point, no one has even been willing to consider that possibility. I mean, if you had an axe to grind, isn't this the perfect time? The vultures are circling because of another story, and if I wanted to get back at Coach Barnett for anything, now would be the perfect time. Everyone is going to assume the worst because no one is asking for proof.

The only thing remotely resembling proof right now is an eyewitness report of another player and the quote doesn't address what was done, it just says "she endured more abuse than one player should have to bear". Yeah, and in high school, I could say the same thing about guys I played with but that doesn't mean they were groped or raped or any of the more serious allegations. The term "verbal abuse" can mean many things and I'm sure anyone who has played on a team knows there are a lot of things that, if said out of context, would sound like verbal abuse. And we condone this since typically it's guys that endure it: "he's just being toughened up, so he should take it like a man" but a woman who wants to play the same game has separate rules in society's eyes?

As for Barnett, there were some pricks on a couple of teams I was on, and they were pretty damn good at hiding when they were being asses to those kids who were picked on so it's not as if the coach knew. And while we're at it, the dad said he went to both Barnett and the AD and talked about "some of the hell (but not the rape)". How the hell do you not bring up the rape. If my daughter had been raped, I'd want fucking blood! But you don't want to go to the coach- for what reason?!?

I really like reading Rick Reilly, but a lot of this story bugs me. It has a lot of sugary emotional blackmail in it from start "honor-roll student, a homecoming queen..." to middle, pointing out that her dad was "an Army surgeon currently stationed in Iraq" to finish "makes this alum want to hide his class ring". Granted, he typically likes to embellish his stories, but with an accusation this serious, I would think he would want to embellish this story with facts.

So, in the end, it's just her word against, well, whose? No one's. She hasn't even accused anyone in particular- there's no police report, not only from five years ago, but now. I'm pretty sure rape has no statute of limitations on rape, and if I were raped, I'd want the bastard to pay. There's nothing he can do to her now so why not go after him. But, instead, "Hnida isn't suing Colorado or pressing charges against former teammates. 'I just want to see changes made there,' she says." There's no f'ing way. I would think a rape victim would want to say who did it, if for no other reason than to make sure he can't do it to anyone else!

Now, if these allegations are true, then give 'em hell. Rape is about as sick a crime as there is and damned if the player involved doesn't deserve jail time for doing it. On top of that, the coach should be in trouble for the actions of his team, if he knew this was going on. But I'm tired of this kneejerk reaction of "guilty until proven innocent" because of the seriousness of these allegations. Are they guilty just because she claims rape?

I'm thankful I'm not on a female-dominated board because most seem to have the hardest time wrapping their head around that idea, thinking emotionally on a subject that requires cold hard facts. I've seen girls that are very logical be completely irrational around a few key topics and rape is one of them. It was no coincidence that as soon as Keitzman mentioned this on his show yesterday, two of the first three calls were female trying to blast him for belittling Hnida and her claims. Yet all he basically said is that he's very skeptical in these cases where there is no police report.

Now, I know I'm going to get attacked for saying "how can you side with this monster Barnett". But I'm not- I'm just saying it's possible that this just could be made up. And just because she's claiming rape doesn't make it any more or less likely that it's made up.

Finally I can't help but notice that tucked neatly into the end of the story is a request to get a sixth-year exemption from the NCAA but it gives no reason why. It says nothing about injury or transfer rules and at this point, I'm assuming she has no real grounds to base it on (someone tell me if they know otherwise). It's very conspicuous to me that this story in a major media outlet seems the perfect way to kill two birds with one stone: not only could I grind my axe against an embattled coach but also elicit enough sympathy to come back to school for another season when anyone else woudln't be able to.


SI

[ScottVib]

The thing is this story fits nicely with her statement before any of this stuff broke.

In this article from before the start of last season, and before this story broke:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/ncaa/08/22/bc.fbc.femalekicker.ap/index.html


Hnida said she didn't return for several reasons, including "an incident during that summer" she declined to detail.

The summer in question is the summer during which she is claiming the rape occurred. I would highly doubt she was setting something up just in case something happened on a later date. (Do you claim mystery incidents in advance just in case you might be able to use them in the future to get revenge?)

I find the entire story entirely plausible, as most rapes are never reported the delay doesn't bother me. The only new part of the story was the detail about the rape and further description of the harrassment that was first reported last year. But nothing in the story strikes me as inconsistent, or unplausible.

She said she never told her father about the rape before they met with Barnett.
Worried for his daughter after she had finally told him about some of her hell (but not the rape), Maj. Dave Hnida, an Army surgeon currently stationed in Iraq, went to athletic director Dick Tharp and Barnett about "the cornering, the groping, the name-calling and the football-at-the-head thing," Katie's father says. He got nowhere. "Talking to Barnett was like talking to a wall."

As far as not pressing charges, perhaps she doesn't want to have to face the guy again in court, perhaps she doesn't think there is enough evidence left after 4 years to convict a guy in a Colorado court, when he is a member of the Universities most prominent and popular team? She's not suing the university, she doesn't have anything to gain from making the accusation, except for her piece of mind.

[Noop]

If you could look past the giant chip on your shoulder, you'd see it's because schools like Nebraska and Florida State (yes, you get lumped in with them) have had some recent brushes with the NCAA whereas this is really the first time Colorado has seen anything like this in the past few years. You've admitted to NCAA violations whereas this is still just a media firestorm.

SIChip? Is it a Fritos one? What difference does it make? Its the same deal period the history of it has no bearing on the hear and now.

[sterlingice]

The thing is this story fits nicely with her statement before any of this stuff broke.

In this article from before the start of last season, and before this story broke:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/ncaa/08/22/bc.fbc.femalekicker.ap/index.html



The summer in question is the summer during which she is claiming the rape occurred. I would highly doubt she was setting something up just in case something happened on a later date. (Do you claim mystery incidents in advance just in case you might be able to use them in the future to get revenge?)

I find the entire story entirely plausible, as most rapes are never reported the delay doesn't bother me. The only new part of the story was the detail about the rape and further description of the harrassment that was first reported last year. But nothing in the story strikes me as inconsistent, or unplausible.

She said she never told her father about the rape before they met with Barnett.

As far as not pressing charges, perhaps she doesn't want to have to face the guy again in court, perhaps she doesn't think there is enough evidence left after 4 years to convict a guy in a Colorado court, when he is a member of the Universities most prominent and popular team? She's not suing the university, she doesn't have anything to gain from making the accusation, except for her piece of mind.
All interesting points, and, no I didn't know about her comments from before. It would take a pretty dispicable human being to set up a rape charge months in advance and I really doubt that's the case. I was just basing my assumptions on the recent SI article. Also, I apparently misread the part about her dad- I thought her dad told Barnett about many of the accusations except the rape not that she had told him. My bad.

Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but before I jump to a conclusion, I do want to see some more facts. I'm just saying there are a lot of people willing to condemn without any proof whatsoever.

SI

[sterlingice]

Chip? Is is a Fritos one? What difference does it make? Its the same deal period the history of it has no bearing on the hear and now.
You have a chip on your shoulder because everyone was talking about something that has no bearing on Florida State Pennite-- University (oops, did I besmirch their pristine name again), yet you felt the need to interject them into the conversation quite a few posts ago. Not only that, but while there was something much bigger going on, you feel that a cheap shot or two is much more important than the actual news story. That's a pretty big chip.

SI

[ScottVib]

Another thing that bothers me Barnett's latest statements:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/02/18/colorado.football/index.html
Football coach Gary Barnett said Hnida had never told him about any sort of sexual harassment or sexual assault from teammates.

This comes after the 2003 story has these quotes from Barnett:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/ncaa/08/22/bc.fbc.femalekicker.ap/index.html
Gary Barnett, who was in his first season as head coach at Colorado when Hnida was on his team, said Thursday he was made aware of only one complaint.

Hnida or her father, Dave Hnida, "said she had been called an inappropriate name," Barnett said.

"I immediately went to the accused source of that and was very angry and very upset that he would do that sort of thing," Barnett said.

Barnett said he gave the player a tongue-lashing and told him he would be kicked off the team if he did it again.

So now Barnett claims he never was made aware of the allegations, when last year he claimed he yelled at a player who had harrassed her.

[Eaglesfan27]

Another thing that bothers me Barnett's latest statements:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/02/18/colorado.football/index.html


This comes after the 2003 story has these quotes from Barnett:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/ncaa/08/22/bc.fbc.femalekicker.ap/index.html


So now Barnett claims he never was made aware of the allegations, when last year he claimed he yelled at a player who had harrassed her.


Some excellent points in your last few posts.

[ScottVib]

Dan Patrick show discussing how the article came out.

Reilly (SI article's author) on the talk show discussed how the "C-word" became her nickname. Said that he originally contacted her and she didn't want to talk about it, but finally when this stuff broke she told Reilly she was ready to finally talk about it. Allegedly the motivation was because the story brought her back to the depression and illness she had felt immediately after everything had happened, so she had to get it out, just to get past it.

Barnett reportedly was told about everything the name calling, the ball throwing at her head, the groping, and cornering her. They go on to coment on how Barnett currently denies knowing about recruiting parties, denies knowing about the strippers, denies knowing about Katie Hnida and he went on to say to nail Barnett saying either he's completely clueless, or he doesn't live in Boulder (don't look at it for the literal meaning :p ).

He says (as if this wasn't a no brainer) that Barnett's done. But the school doesn't want to fire him because that would be an admission of guilt that the team was messed up and would hurt them in the lawsuits for the other rapes (recruiting party incidents). Since Barnett won't resign it should be interesting to see how long before Colorado finally bites the bullet and fires him.

Obviously I wasn't there and only those who were involved truly know what happened, but just from what I'm reading and hearing on the various reports, Hnida's story seems remarkably consistent from the first reports last year to today, while Barnett's is a bit inconsistent.

[corbes]

Scott, thank you for the thoughtful posts on this subject, especially pointing out Barnett's inconsistencies.

[Noop]

You have a chip on your shoulder because everyone was talking about something that has no bearing on Florida State Pennite-- University (oops, did I besmirch their pristine name again), yet you felt the need to interject them into the conversation quite a few posts ago. Not only that, but while there was something much bigger going on, you feel that a cheap shot or two is much more important than the actual news story. That's a pretty big chip.

SI
*Forgets about it* Not even worth the trip... and what is the actually story by the way? This happens at most school believe or not...Colorado's just getting a raw deal...

[sterlingice]

{massive snip}

Obviously I wasn't there and only those who were involved truly know what happened, but just from what I'm reading and hearing on the various reports, Hnida's story seems remarkably consistent from the first reports last year to today, while Barnett's is a bit inconsistent.
Well, if this is true and it's sounding more and more like it, string him and the football players who did it up. Thanks for more of the backstory.

SI

[ScottVib]

More details on how the story came out from an interview with the author Rick Reily.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/19/reilly.hnida/?cnn=yes

He met her when he wrote a story about her, while she was in high school and had kept in touch with Hnida, which built the relationship between Hnida and the author, until eventually she decided to contact him to get her story out.

Essentially she approached him with the story twice before, but then couldn't bring herself to divulge the details (leaving the 2003 article with the comment about her leaving do to an incident over the summer that she declined to elaborate on), finally the article that was posted by SI with the details came out, after Hnida finally felt strong enough to tell her story.