More Tillmen bashing

[druez]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200

[SegRat]

Wow that's harsh.

[SirFozzie]

And people wonder why they call my home state the "People's Republic of Massachusetts". Of course, no one here agrees with this idiot's ramblings (and no, Jason, I'm not taking a sly potshot at you).

[KevinNU7]

Here's the actual article

http://www.dailycollegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/04/28/408f27f0591be

[KevinNU7]

Here's the paper's defense the next day

http://www.dailycollegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/04/29/4090744e398cd

[Butter]

The "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza"? Do we really have to slap "freedom" on everything now?

BTW, if you're going to college newspapers for informed editorializing you deserve to be shocked and saddened at today's youth.

[KWhit]

From the article:

"They should call Pat Tillman's army life 'Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed.'"

That's a little wordy for a movie title I think.

[Maple Leafs]

As someone who spent quite a bit of time at a college paper back in the day... this does not surprise me one bit.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Shouldn't we have the right to beat his ass to a bloody pulp, put him in a small box, and mail it on a slow boat to PR?

It's one thing to rip Bush, but when you go after our troops you cross the line.

[LionsFan10]

Shouldn't we have the right to beat his ass to a bloody pulp, put him in a small box, and mail it on a slow boat to PR?

It's one thing to rip Bush, but when you go after our troops you cross the line.

Do not let this idiot make you believe that the rest of us Puerto Rican's are so un-patriotic.

Why, oh why did he have to be Puerto Rican ... bring on the PR bashing. :( :( :(

[Noble_Platypus]

They should taser that fucking asshole and drop his ass out a plane over Puerto Rico, without a parachute. People like P.T. are who make it possible for pricks like him to fuck off and drink for 4 years at college

[Ksyrup]

I can't believe some pendejo college kid's article is making national headlines. Slow news day?

[WussGawd]

Not even sure this is news. This is one 20 year old dweeb at UMass. Big deal.

[Ryan S]

I can't help but think this guy has got exactly the reaction he wanted out of the media. His name is all over the news.

[Surtt]

Just for the record.

Flying two jetliners into the world trade center,
atempting to assassinate the president by flying into the White House,
and failing that, attacking our top military leaders by flying into the pentagon:
IS attacking our East Coast.

I wounder what he is calling it, self defense?

[Hurst2112]

And I thought Menudo was the worst thing to come out of PR. I was wrong.

Though I would like to ship the fucker back in a cardboard box, I would say that he is probably getting more criticizim here than he would back home. Let him sweat it out here, and get what's coming to him.

[Ragone]

I think we should take this guy.. fly him over iraq.. and dump him out in the middle of hostile lands with a bb gun to defend himself..

[Rizon]

Well, I guess if we're going to make ignorant comments on someones "picture" ... hell, might as well make this even.

Quick search found him on UMasses pages.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jbcp/rene.jpg

[sovereignstar]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200
What the fuck is the point of posting this shit? Who cares? It's obvious that that people differ in their opinions.

It's like everyone gets a kick out of finally agreeing on something. Now let's think of a clever way to punish someone who holds that differing opinion.

Keep dancing around the fire with your sticks, imbiciles.

Pat Tillman was a soldier and there are many more out there. Defending him when it's pretty useless doesn't make you patriotic.

[Ragone]

Except i wonder if this kid wasn't reaching for his 15 minutes of fame.. by using Tillman's death.. that is what sickens me

[sovereignstar]

Except i wonder if this kid wasn't reaching for his 15 minutes of fame.. by using Tillman's death.. that is what sickens me
And you could be absolutely right. But can we just assume that?

[Crapshoot]

Shouldn't we have the right to beat his ass to a bloody pulp, put him in a small box, and mail it on a slow boat to PR?

It's one thing to rip Bush, but when you go after our troops you cross the line.

Wait a minute. I can't stand his article, but he does have the right to publish it.

[Crapshoot]

Just for the record.

Flying two jetliners into the world trade center,
atempting to assassinate the president by flying into the White House,
and failing that, attacking our top military leaders by flying into the pentagon:
IS attacking our East Coast.

I wounder what he is calling it, self defense?

Yes, but that's the Taliban- not Iraq- understand the difference. Too many Americans seem to have forgotten that.

[Maple Leafs]

Yes, but that's the Taliban- not Iraq- understand the difference. Too many Americans seem to have forgotten that.You know that Tillman was killed in Afghanistan, right?

[Ragone]

sovereign.. i hope i'm wrong.. but i fear i'm right

[Surtt]

He died in Afghanistan not Iraq.

[Samdari]

Wait a minute. I can't stand his article, but he does have the right to publish it.

And BigJohn has the right to think he deserves a beating. I don't see a problem here.

[Noop]

So what about the others that die? How come we dont name streets and cities after them?

[Young Drachma]

College newspapers job are to muck shit up. That's what they do, because otherwise no one will pay attention on campus. Does he believe that? Probably. Was it sensationalist? Sure. But he was saying what no respectable journalist would have the courage to, otherwise they'd get a response like this one here and maybe lose their job.

I'm not saying I agree with him - as someone who served and has friends there now - I don't. But, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to express his opinion. Now go ahead and lambast him. You have that right and ought to. The piece was shortsighted.

[GrantDawg]

Do not let this idiot make you believe that the rest of us Puerto Rican's are so un-patriotic.

Why, oh why did he have to be Puerto Rican ... bring on the PR bashing. :( :( :(
"I like my coffe like I like my women.....Puerto Rican." :)

[Young Drachma]

Oh and its a really poorly written piece, too. I mean, he was just ranting.

[Bosco]

Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.

[Samdari]

The piece was shortsighted.

It's not just the piece. The opinion that people who die in the service of our country are not heroes because they find the decision to be in the military action disagreeable is in itself shortsighted. All of these people volunteered to serve our country, and potentially risk their lives to fight against enemies declared by their superiors. For that action, they are heroes, whether or not they are ever called upon to face live fire. Those that do face hostile enemies, and especially those that have their lives taken in such service deserve to be treated with the utmost respect and have their heroism celebrated.

[JHandley]

Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.

Is this a serious post?

[Crapshoot]

You know that Tillman was killed in Afghanistan, right?

I do- my mistake was I thought the self-defense arguement was made in relation to Iraq. For that I apologize..

[LionsFan10]

Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.

/sigh, I knew it was coming. Oh well, think what you want my friend ... oh wait, I'm not your friend, I'm Puerto Rican ... that makes me to "low" to be your friend, I suppose. My mistake. :rolleyes:

[Ben E Lou]

Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.Easiest....suspension........decision...........ever.

[The Afoci]

Easiest....suspension........decision...........ever.

His ability to post absolutely nothing amazed even me.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Do not let this idiot make you believe that the rest of us Puerto Rican's are so un-patriotic.

Why, oh why did he have to be Puerto Rican ... bring on the PR bashing. :( :( :(

I'm not PR bashing. (I know that many of the troops overseas dying happen to be latino) I just happen to be of the mind that if someone happens to be from a different nation and wants to shit on the U.S.A. then they shouldn't be here in the 1st place. I grew up in Detroit, and every gas station seems to be owned by an Iraqi who laughs at the U.S. and thinks we're a bunch of damn fools. Guess what? In this respect they are actually correct, because they know that they shouldn't be here...

On a sidenote: The guy who hit the picture of Saddam with his shoe was on Brokaw a couple of weeks ago, because of the anniversary. A group of Iraqi's in Detroit wanted to fly him to the U.S. and give him a tour, a hero's welcome, and a key to the city. His response was that he has a life to live there in Iraq, and he would prefer to see the exiles Iraqi's return home to help make their homeland a better land. Funny, but I don't see that happening...

[JHandley]

Isn't Bosco like a high school kid? Is it really possible for him to believe what he said?

[Ben E Lou]

His ability to post absolutely nothing amazed even me.Well, he now has two weeks in which he will post nothing.

[Easy Mac]

I'm not PR bashing. (I know that many of the troops overseas dying happen to be latino) I just happen to be of the mind that if someone happens to be from a different nation and wants to shit on the U.S.A. then they shouldn't be here in the 1st place. I grew up in Detroit, and every gas station seems to be owned by an Iraqi who laughs at the U.S. and thinks we're a bunch of damn fools. Guess what? In this respect they are actually correct, because they know that they shouldn't be here...
Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the US and they are granted US citizenship, so he is every much American as you are.

[LionsFan10]

Well, he now has two weeks in which he will post nothing.

:) :)

[Easy Mac]

Well, he now has two weeks in which he will post nothing.
Thank God, no more Duke bashing.

[Crapshoot]

Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.

And this is the kind of idiocy that passes for patriotism from you ?

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the US and they are granted US citizenship, so he is every much American as you are.

I don't shit on dead soldiers. And he doesn't have to live here if he don't like it.

[Crapshoot]

I'm not PR bashing. (I know that many of the troops overseas dying happen to be latino) I just happen to be of the mind that if someone happens to be from a different nation and wants to shit on the U.S.A. then they shouldn't be here in the 1st place. I grew up in Detroit, and every gas station seems to be owned by an Iraqi who laughs at the U.S. and thinks we're a bunch of damn fools. Guess what? In this respect they are actually correct, because they know that they shouldn't be here...

On a sidenote: The guy who hit the picture of Saddam with his shoe was on Brokaw a couple of weeks ago, because of the anniversary. A group of Iraqi's in Detroit wanted to fly him to the U.S. and give him a tour, a hero's welcome, and a key to the city. His response was that he has a life to live there in Iraq, and he would prefer to see the exiles Iraqi's return home to help make their homeland a better land. Funny, but I don't see that happening...

Sigh. Im a foreigner, who happens to be fairly Republican in my views- however, I have plenty of friends who see quite differently. That being said, I hate this attitude- people may be here to have a business or other needs, not because they agree with the politics- and they have a right to criticize it for what they percieve as shortcomings. More often than not, they contribute more then they take, be it to the tax rolls, the education system, or whatever. MOre so, the idea that criticism is a proxy for hatred or disdain is ridiculous. Should every American who lives overseas refrain from criticizing the country they live in, because they should go home ? I hate that tired "Love it or Leave it " attitude, if only because it only reinforces stereotypes about conservatives...

And as someone pointed out- PR is an American commenwealth, which turned down a chance to be the 51'st state.

[GrantDawg]

Sigh. Im a foreigner, who happens to be fairly Republican in my views- however, I have plenty of friends who see quite differently. That being said, I hate this attitude- people may be here to have a business or other needs, not because they agree with the politics- and they have a right to criticize it for what they percieve as shortcomings. More often than not, they contribute more then they take, be it to the tax rolls, the education system, or whatever. MOre so, the idea that criticism is a proxy for hatred or disdain is ridiculous. Should every American who lives overseas refrain from criticizing the country they live in, because they should go home ? I hate that tired "Love it or Leave it " attitude, if only because it only reinforces stereotypes about conservatives...

And as someone pointed out- PR is an American commenwealth, which turned down a chance to be the 51'st state.
Amen. Free speech even includes this kind of drivel. That doesn't mean he should be immuned to criticism, though.

[Surtt]

I got into an argument the other night with one of these guys.
He was adamant the Clinton won the cold war.
He also clamed to be a history major,
that really makes me wonder what the are teaching these kids.

This guy can believe what ever he wants.
I just wish he wouldn't drag Tillman in for the shock value.

[Crapshoot]

Amen. Free speech even includes this kind of drivel. That doesn't mean he should be immuned to criticism, though.

Agreed- my beef was more with the attitude of Big John that as a foreigner (misplaced as it was on his part) you somehow have no place to criticize.

[dawgfan]

So what about the others that die? How come we dont name streets and cities after them?

For me, one of the most important things I've taken away from Pat Tillman's death is a more tangible sense of loss for all the soldiers dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Tillman is being eulogized in this way because he represents a powerful image of sacrifice, conviction and duty for America. While he probably wouldn't have liked all the posthumus attention, and while it may not be fair to the hundreds of fellow soldiers who've also died while serving their country without the accompanying publicity, that will be one of his greatest legacies is serving as a highly visible example of the sacrifice our soldiers are subject to making.

While there will undoubtably be many memorials made in Pat Tillman's name, I wouldn't be surprised if there are other, smaller memorials in other soldier's names around the country in their hometowns. We just don't hear about them on a national scale like we do Tillman, and for obvious reasons.

[John Galt]

I'm not PR bashing. (I know that many of the troops overseas dying happen to be latino) I just happen to be of the mind that if someone happens to be from a different nation and wants to shit on the U.S.A. then they shouldn't be here in the 1st place. I grew up in Detroit, and every gas station seems to be owned by an Iraqi who laughs at the U.S. and thinks we're a bunch of damn fools. Guess what? In this respect they are actually correct, because they know that they shouldn't be here...

On a sidenote: The guy who hit the picture of Saddam with his shoe was on Brokaw a couple of weeks ago, because of the anniversary. A group of Iraqi's in Detroit wanted to fly him to the U.S. and give him a tour, a hero's welcome, and a key to the city. His response was that he has a life to live there in Iraq, and he would prefer to see the exiles Iraqi's return home to help make their homeland a better land. Funny, but I don't see that happening...

I'm still undecided if this post makes less sense than the college paper article. It is a very close call.

[sabotai]

Easiest....suspension........decision...........ever.

No..ugh, SkyDog, you're doing it all wrong.

It's: Easiest. Suspension Decision. Ever.

:)

[cody8200]

Originally Posted by Bosco
Puerto Ricans are the lowest of the low, even lower than Mexicans.


Not patriotism...fervent nationalism.

[druez]

What the fuck is the point of posting this shit? Who cares? It's obvious that that people differ in their opinions.

It's like everyone gets a kick out of finally agreeing on something. Now let's think of a clever way to punish someone who holds that differing opinion.

Keep dancing around the fire with your sticks, imbiciles.

Pat Tillman was a soldier and there are many more out there. Defending him when it's pretty useless doesn't make you patriotic.

traitor....

Seriously, I just find it amazing that someone could actually write something like that. Its not an opinion piece its an attack on a person who just died "fighting for us and this idiot who just wrote it"

[Sun Tzu]

I have read many articles regarding Tillmans death. A few have been negative, but the majority have made him out to be one of the greatest heroes to ever walk the earth. My beliefs lie somewhere between those two. Personaly I think giving up a pro football career to go fight in afganistan is the last thing in this life I would ever do. But that's my belief, and he obviously felt different. Good for him.

From what I hear people say, it sounds like Pat was a nice guy all around. And in my book that's the only thing that really counts. I could care less if he went to Timbuktu and faught for the liberation of all albino boston terriers. If you were a great guy and treated others with respect and love, then you deserve to be remembered. I've always been one for judging the person by their character and moral fiber, not by how "patriotic" they were. Now it bothers me that some are crapping on Pat's grave simply because he was a soldier. To me, this doesn't make any sense. Chalk another big ad hominem up for the citizens of the United States of America.

[tucker342]

Why the hell was this even mentioned on ESPN.com

Who the hell cares what that guy thinks about Tillmen?

[BishopMVP]

My school gets all the good publicity :rolleyes: And to answer someone's question, from what this idiot has written in the past, he really does believe it and isn't just going for 15 minutes of fame. And while he does have the right to publish it, in this newspaper that's the editors decision and they should be ashamed of themselves too.Shouldn't we have the right to beat his ass to a bloody pulp?If I meet him at a party on campus somewhere, I'll pop him in the mouth for you.And people wonder why they call my home state the "People's Republic of Massachusetts". Of course, no one here agrees with this idiot's ramblings (and no, Jason, I'm not taking a sly potshot at you).There is a significant proportion (maybe 10-20%) of the anti-war crowd out here that does believe this. Pretending that he is a lone idiot may be comforting, but it isn't true.

[Butter]

I have read many articles regarding Tillmans death. A few have been negative, but the majority have made him out to be one of the greatest heroes to ever walk the earth. My beliefs lie somewhere between those two. Personaly I think giving up a pro football career to go fight in afganistan is the last thing in this life I would ever do. But that's my belief, and he obviously felt different. Good for him.

From what I hear people say, it sounds like Pat was a nice guy all around. And in my book that's the only thing that really counts. I could care less if he went to Timbuktu and faught for the liberation of all albino boston terriers. If you were a great guy and treated others with respect and love, then you deserve to be remembered. I've always been one for judging the person by their character and moral fiber, not by how "patriotic" they were. Now it bothers me that some are crapping on Pat's grave simply because he was a soldier. To me, this doesn't make any sense. Chalk another big ad hominem up for the citizens of the United States of America.

This post gets the penis nailed to the board stamp of approval.

[dawgfan]

I have read many articles regarding Tillmans death. A few have been negative, but the majority have made him out to be one of the greatest heroes to ever walk the earth. My beliefs lie somewhere between those two. Personaly I think giving up a pro football career to go fight in afganistan is the last thing in this life I would ever do. But that's my belief, and he obviously felt different. Good for him.

From what I hear people say, it sounds like Pat was a nice guy all around. And in my book that's the only thing that really counts. I could care less if he went to Timbuktu and faught for the liberation of all albino boston terriers. If you were a great guy and treated others with respect and love, then you deserve to be remembered. I've always been one for judging the person by their character and moral fiber, not by how "patriotic" they were. Now it bothers me that some are crapping on Pat's grave simply because he was a soldier. To me, this doesn't make any sense. Chalk another big ad hominem up for the citizens of the United States of America.

Nicely put.

Whether you agree with the decision Pat Tillman made or not, it remains true that he sacrificed a great deal for himself to follow his convictions. I admire that quality - here was a guy that felt strongly enough about something to take action, even when that involved significant personal sacrifice and placed himself in a position of risking his life. The fact he chose to forgo his right to go in as an officer so he could serve with his brother, that he eschewed publicity about his decision, and that he insisted he not be treated as a symbol and placed out of harm's way and used as a recruiting tool speaks volumes to me. This was obviously not a publicity stunt and was the result of strong convictions on his part.

Add to that the stories about his character from his teammates and former coaches - that he was an ace student, that he was a straight-forward, no BS kind of guy, that he transcended cliques and was considered a friend by all, that he appeared to be someone willing to think for himself and act on his convictions - this is a person with qualities I admire. I have no idea if I shared political ideals with him or not, but regardless this is a person that was an asset to our country and will be missed.

[dawgfan]

And while he does have the right to publish it, in this newspaper that's the editors decision and they should be ashamed of themselves too.

I couldn't disagree with you more about this. You don't have to agree with what this guy wrote - I certainly don't - but the idea that he shouldn't have been allowed to voice his opinion is BS. This is a free country, and we are better for the variety of opinions that are allowed to be expressed; conformity of thought is something that is the province of totalitarian regimes, not democracies.

The paper did everything correct here - they ran the controversial editorial as well as one in support of Tillman side by side, and they went to great lengths to express that these opinion pieces didn't necessarily represent the positions of the editorial board or the paper as a whole. The author has the right to express his controversial opinion, and we as readers have the right to call him ignorant.

The idea that the paper should have censored him for an unpopular opinion is completely at odds with what this country stands for.

[BishopMVP]

I couldn't disagree with you more about this. You don't have to agree with what this guy wrote - I certainly don't - but the idea that he shouldn't have been allowed to voice his opinion is BS. This is a free country, and we are better for the variety of opinions that are allowed to be expressed; conformity of thought is something that is the province of totalitarian regimes, not democracies.You're really comparing my idea that, as a registered student organization, the paper should have some sort of restraint to a total deisregard for freedom of speech? If this guy wanted to print it up himself, go ahead, but I wouldn't expect something like the NYT, USA Today, WaPo or any respectable newspaper to publish an editorial like this (not only is the viewpoint disgraceful, but the writing quality was poor too.) If I wrote an article encouraging students to drink, would you expect the paper to print that because it is the viewpoint I hold?
The paper did everything correct here - they ran the controversial editorial as well as one in support of Tillman side by side, and they went to great lengths to express that these opinion pieces didn't necessarily represent the positions of the editorial board or the paper as a whole. The author has the right to express his controversial opinion, and we as readers have the right to call him ignorant.

The idea that the paper should have censored him for an unpopular opinion is completely at odds with what this country stands for.You don't read this paper every day. I've submitted two editorials arguing for what we are doing in Iraq, and neither has been printed. Yet almost every day I see incredibly stupid editorials like this that accuse Americans of being imperialists, of the soldiers being Rambo-impersonators who deserved it, and selectively chosen AP articles only describing bad things happening in Iraq. The editors can go out and say the piece doesn't represent their opinion, but I'd venture to say it is as close to their opinion as my views are. By printing this editorial they give legitimacy to an argument that should be allowed to be spoken, but not promoted as as much a part of the discourse as saying he is a hero.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

"I like my coffe like I like my women.....Puerto Rican." :)

I like my women like I like my women: Ground up and in the freezer...

[Samdari]

I couldn't disagree with you more about this. You don't have to agree with what this guy wrote - I certainly don't - but the idea that he shouldn't have been allowed to voice his opinion is BS. This is a free country, and we are better for the variety of opinions that are allowed to be expressed; conformity of thought is something that is the province of totalitarian regimes, not democracies.

You do realize that as long as the government is not restricting the speech, the first amendment is satisfied, right?

You also must realize that publishers have 100% control over what they publish and that a publisher declining to publish something that has been submitted by a writer is in no way an infringement upon the writer's first amendment rights.

EDIT: added
The author has the right to express his controversial opinion

But, getting it published is not a right.

[Maple Leafs]

You also must realize that publishers have 100% control over what they publish and that a publisher declining to publish something that has been submitted by a writer is in no way an infringement upon the writer's first amendment rights.Believe me, if the average student newspaper published everything that was submitted each edition would be 1,000 pages, weigh ten pounds, and be completely and utterly unreadable.

That said, I don't really have a big problem with this piece getting published. It is a student paper on a college campus, after all. And from the sound of it they published the piece right next to an opposing opinion. The writing quality is poor, sure, but a college campus should be a place for extreme opinions, even the dumb ones.

[Samdari]

That said, I don't really have a big problem with this piece getting published. It is a student paper on a college campus, after all. And from the sound of it they published the piece right next to an opposing opinion. The writing quality is poor, sure, but a college campus should be a place for extreme opinions, even the dumb ones.

I did not mean to express any opinion on the actual decision to publish the piece, only that it was a decision in the realm of editorial discretion, and completely unrelated to any free speech issues.

I agree with the idea that college newspapers should be a place to express extreme opinions.

[dawgfan]

You're really comparing my idea that, as a registered student organization, the paper should have some sort of restraint to a total deisregard for freedom of speech?

Yes I am. Look, this editorial wasn't suggesting that people go out and do illegal things or put people in harms way or anything of that sort - it was simply an opinion about one man's decision to join the army and the manner in which his death has been portrayed in the media.

If this guy wanted to print it up himself, go ahead, but I wouldn't expect something like the NYT, USA Today, WaPo or any respectable newspaper to publish an editorial like this (not only is the viewpoint disgraceful, but the writing quality was poor too.) If I wrote an article encouraging students to drink, would you expect the paper to print that because it is the viewpoint I hold?

First off, aside from the writing quality, yes I would expect that the NYT or any other respectable press outlet would be and should be willing to present controversial opinions in their editorial pages. They probably wouldn't carry this guy's opinions due to the fact that he's not a good writer and shows very poor reasoning and as such wouldn't be worth the space he'd take up in their pages. But I would expect those papers to carry a well-reasoned dissenting opinion about the Pat Tillman saga if one were written. The purpose of editorials is not to please the majority - it's to present individual opinions regardless of the popularity of those opinions. Dialog and reasoned debate on issues makes us a better society. Conformity and close-mindedness lead to stagnation.

You don't read this paper every day. I've submitted two editorials arguing for what we are doing in Iraq, and neither has been printed. Yet almost every day I see incredibly stupid editorials like this that accuse Americans of being imperialists, of the soldiers being Rambo-impersonators who deserved it, and selectively chosen AP articles only describing bad things happening in Iraq. The editors can go out and say the piece doesn't represent their opinion, but I'd venture to say it is as close to their opinion as my views are.

I remember well the student newspaper when I was in college - it was very liberal as well. I suspect this is the case at many schools. It wouldn't surprise me if this opinion piece reflected the attitudes of some or many within the paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if the editors running that paper were biased in favor of running mostly liberal-slanted opinions. I don't agree with that philosophy and I would hold the faculty representatives accountable for allowing that bias, but it doesn't surprise me and it doesn't alarm me that much.

If you want news and opinions that present a more balanced and well-thought out approach there are plenty of established newspapers, magazines and websites to turn to. I wouldn't expect much out of a college newspaper. If you have real issues with the slant of the college paper take it up with the faculty representatives.

By printing this editorial they give legitimacy to an argument that should be allowed to be spoken, but not promoted as as much a part of the discourse as saying he is a hero.

I disagree. They put in the disclaimers about it and they ran it with alongside another opinion piece that was favorable towards Tillman. What they were giving legitimacy to is the concept that it's OK to present opinions that differ from the majority.

[dawgfan]

You do realize that as long as the government is not restricting the speech, the first amendment is satisfied, right?

Of course I realize that. The point though is that the free press should actually feel free to print controversial opinions.

You also must realize that publishers have 100% control over what they publish and that a publisher declining to publish something that has been submitted by a writer is in no way an infringement upon the writer's first amendment rights.

EDIT: added


But, getting it published is not a right.

I think you miss my point - I'm not saying a publisher should feel obligated to publish a controversial opinion; I'm saying they shouldn't be afraid to do so if they choose. I do think any responsible paper should publish a variety of opinions from a variety of political viewpoints in order to both establish credibility as well as to foster a lively debate of opinions.

[Maple Leafs]

I did not mean to express any opinion on the actual decision to publish the piece, only that it was a decision in the realm of editorial discretion, and completely unrelated to any free speech issues. Agreed.

[BishopMVP]

aside from the writing quality, yes I would expect that the NYT or any other respectable press outlet would be and should be willing to present controversial opinions in their editorial pages. They probably wouldn't carry this guy's opinions due to the fact that he's not a good writer and shows very poor reasoning and as such wouldn't be worth the space he'd take up in their pages. But I would expect those papers to carry a well-reasoned dissenting opinion about the Pat Tillman saga if one were written. The purpose of editorials is not to please the majority - it's to present individual opinions regardless of the popularity of those opinions. Dialog and reasoned debate on issues makes us a better society. Conformity and close-mindedness lead to stagnation.I agree with you. But aside from writing quality, this wasn't a "well-reasoned dissenting opinion." My problem isn't that the other side shouldn't be represented, but rather that this particular piece wasn't the one to do that.

And for the rest, thinking a paper should refrain from printing an editorial like this is not an infringement on his 1st Amendment rights.

What they were giving legitimacy to is the concept that it's OK to present opinions that differ from the majority.They could have given legitimacy to that by presenting a "well-reasoned dissenting opinion," not this shit.

[BishopMVP]

Of course I realize that. The point though is that the free press should actually feel free to print controversial opinions.

I think you miss my point - I'm not saying a publisher should feel obligated to publish a controversial opinion; I'm saying they shouldn't be afraid to do so if they choose. I do think any responsible paper should publish a variety of opinions from a variety of political viewpoints in order to both establish credibility as well as to foster a lively debate of opinions.With freedom comes responsibility. Just because they had the right to do it, doesn't mean they should have. That's all I'm saying.

[dawgfan]

With freedom comes responsibility. Just because they had the right to do it, doesn't mean they should have. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed. If you want to argue that the quality of most college newspapers is far below that of most big-city newspapers, I would agree. Given their role in our society though, I don't have a big problem with college newspapers being provocative.

[Samdari]

Of course I realize that. The point though is that the free press should actually feel free to print controversial opinions.

I think you miss my point - I'm not saying a publisher should feel obligated to publish a controversial opinion; I'm saying they shouldn't be afraid to do so if they choose. I do think any responsible paper should publish a variety of opinions from a variety of political viewpoints in order to both establish credibility as well as to foster a lively debate of opinions.

If that is your point, I did indeed miss it. I get very frustrated when I see private entities denying someone access to a press getting labeled as an affront to freedom of the press.

In this case, I think that the editorial board should have exercised better judgement and not published the piece. Not because they should be afraid to publish controversial opinions, but because this is not an opinion piece, it is (in internet parlance) a flame, intended only to arrouse passionate disagreement, and completely lacking in substance. If they had come up with a well thought out argument as to why coverage idolizing our fallen soldiers did a disservice to the country, they could have published it in good conscience.

[Surtt]

There is a difference between presenting controversial opinions and inflammatory rants.

"I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish."

How does this comment represent any reasonable opinion?
Does it spark any discussion on military service? ,on foreign affairs?

It was some kid screaming I want attention. It wasn't worth publishing.

[mgadfly]

If that is your point, I did indeed miss it. I get very frustrated when I see private entities denying someone access to a press getting labeled as an affront to freedom of the press.

In this case, I think that the editorial board should have exercised better judgement and not published the piece. Not because they should be afraid to publish controversial opinions, but because this is not an opinion piece, it is (in internet parlance) a flame, intended only to arrouse passionate disagreement, and completely lacking in substance. If they had come up with a well thought out argument as to why coverage idolizing our fallen soldiers did a disservice to the country, they could have published it in good conscience.

Isn't this a state school? Which I imagine funds the school paper? And wouldn't its pages be a public forum, especially if they had allowed the contrary opinion to be published? I'm a little fuzzy on my constitutional law, and your main point that where there is no state action there is no constitutional violation is sound, but I couldn't help but wonder if there is a constitutional concern here. I don't know the answer, and my questions aren't sarcastic, and I can barely recall con-law and I'm too lazy to go read up on it, but, well... your post got me thinking maybe there is a state actor here.

That said, I'd have done what the school editorial board did, publish it along with a counter piece.

[Pumpy Tudors]

If this guy's opinion really means nothing, why in the world are so many people making a big deal about it? Just move on, people.

[Subby]

Frankly, I am glad stuff like that gets published.

It's the essence of what is great about this country...

[Pumpy Tudors]

Frankly, I am glad stuff like that gets published.

It's the essence of what is great about this country...

yea but evry1 disagreeZ or shuld disagree so that stuf shouldnt be publishd anywhere evar except maybe in red china!!!!111oneonetwo LOL

This bit of silliness has been brought to you by the letter P and the number Senegal.

[Subby]

yea but evry1 disagreeZ or shuld disagree so that stuf shouldnt be publishd anywhere evar except maybe in red china!!!!111oneonetwo LOL

This bit of silliness has been brought to you by the letter P and the number Senegal.pwned!

[sachmo71]

Let me see if I have this...

Defense=heroic
Offense=unnecessary


Who is this guy, Montgomery?

[Deattribution]

He's Sorry (link) (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792673)

[WussGawd]

It's quite clear to me, in light of the "deserved" firestorm this kid ignited, that he is very angry about our involvement in Iraq. Unfortunately, he picked the wrong target. He should have been pointing his aim squarely at Pennsylvania Avenue.

Pat Tillman represents the best of America. Intelligent, independent, free-thinking, and passionate about his country. To me, having followed his career closely at ASU, he was a role model before he even donned a uniform. The fact that he donned it, in lieu of millions, and served his country in a way that many have not, he is one of a large number of heroes.

And Mr. Gonzales has learned a valuable lesson as well. Speech may be free, but this does not mean that stupid speech is free of consequences.

[SFL Cat]

Nicely put.

Whether you agree with the decision Pat Tillman made or not, it remains true that he sacrificed a great deal for himself to follow his convictions. I admire that quality - here was a guy that felt strongly enough about something to take action, even when that involved significant personal sacrifice and placed himself in a position of risking his life. The fact he chose to forgo his right to go in as an officer so he could serve with his brother, that he eschewed publicity about his decision, and that he insisted he not be treated as a symbol and placed out of harm's way and used as a recruiting tool speaks volumes to me. This was obviously not a publicity stunt and was the result of strong convictions on his part.

Add to that the stories about his character from his teammates and former coaches - that he was an ace student, that he was a straight-forward, no BS kind of guy, that he transcended cliques and was considered a friend by all, that he appeared to be someone willing to think for himself and act on his convictions - this is a person with qualities I admire. I have no idea if I shared political ideals with him or not, but regardless this is a person that was an asset to our country and will be missed.

Ditto...