Player weights & position switches (INPUT NEEDED)

[cthomer5000]

Someone is always looking for this info, and I can never really find it. I think this would be a nice addition to the reference thread when complete.

What weight ranges must a player be to switch to X position?


DE: 260-299 The only think I know for a fact is defensive end. To switch to/within the DE group a player must weigh at least 260 and no more than 299. (259 = no good, 300 = no good).

LB: 220(?) - 260(?) I'm not sure, but I believe an LB over 260 will not be able to switch to another LB position.


Your input is greatly appreciated.

[cthomer5000]

somebody must know something. I vow to dola the shit out of this post until we have this completed.

Or more likely i'll just test it myself tonight after getting no help here.

[albionmoonlight]

miss . . . ez . . . so . . . much . . .

[stevew]

This is a great Idea. I will be interested in seeing
the results of your work.

[JesterBlaze]

Someone is always looking for this info, and I can never really find it. I think this would be a nice addition to the reference thread when complete.

What weight ranges must a player be to switch to X position?


DE: 260-290 The only think I know for a fact is defensive end. To switch to/within the DE group a player must weigh at least 260 and no more than 290. (259 = no good, 291 = no good).

LB: 220(?) - 260(?) I'm not sure, but I believe an LB over 260 will not be able to switch to another LB position.


Your input is greatly appreciated.
cthomer5000,

Since I just got this game I'm too addicted to do anything but actually play it right now but as the newness wears off I'd be willing to help out on this. I can clearly see the usefulness of a reference like this.

[cthomer5000]

bah. I'll just figure it out when I get home tonight.

[JeeberD]

Hasn't Jim said that weight really doesn't matter in the game? Or is that just height..?

[JesterBlaze]

Hasn't Jim said that weight really doesn't matter in the game? Or is that just height..?
When going through the threads linked to by the "All inclusive reference thread" recently I read that weight does matter and that height unfortunately doesn't.

Not sure if I was linked to an old pre-patch thread though. :(

[cthomer5000]

weight = only matters for position switches
height = doesn't ever matter

[Vince]

Corey, let me look...because of my vacuous Guard space last season, I was really interested in this for Guards. I've got some data somewhere, let me pull it up real quick.

[cthomer5000]

I've started my research, and here's where I am so far. What's news to me is that there are some types of players who can't go to certain positions despite fitting the weight range. For instance, a 260 lb Tight End cannot move to DE, and can only be moved to fullback.


<TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=192 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=3 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17>pos</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>min</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>max</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>QB</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>RB</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>FB</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>TE</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>WR</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>C</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">260*</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>G</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>275</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>T</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>280</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>DE</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>260</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>299</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>DT</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>290</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>ILB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>230</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>275</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>OLB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>220</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>270</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>CB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">LT 158</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>220</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>S</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">LT 158</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>230</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>*</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=2>262 is proven, but I would need to find a non-center at 260 lbs to prove my therory</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=2>260 is a safe bet</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

LT = Less Than

I couldn't find a player in the league less than 158, but we can probably assume that any eligible player under 220 and 230 can be shifted to CB and S, respectively.

[cthomer5000]

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=192 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=3 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17>pos</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>min</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>max</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>QB</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">n/a</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">n/a</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>RB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>260</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>FB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>215</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">280*</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>TE</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>215</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">280*</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>WR</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>230</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>C</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">260*</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>G</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>275</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>T</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>280</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>DE</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>260</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>299</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>DT</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>290</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>ILB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>230</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>275</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>OLB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>220</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>270</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>CB</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>220</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>S</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">none</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>230</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

*at FB, 279 was the highest testable weight. 280 is my theory.
*at TE, 273 was the highest testable weight. 280 is my theory.
*at C, 262 was the lowest testable weight (and 259 could not be moved to C). 260 is my theory.
*no players can be moved to QB, but QB's can be changed to other positions.

[cthomer5000]

my next step would be to figure out exactly which position groups certain types of players can switch within.

For instance, a 260 lb. DT can move to Center, while a 260 lb. DE cannot.

[Ben E Lou]

Is this still a work in progress, or is it ready to be linked?

[cthomer5000]

Is this still a work in progress, or is it ready to be linked?
it's about as complete as is reasonably possible.

[Alf]

And it would be appreciated if SkyDog could link to it from the sticky reference thread. I had to do a global search to find it again.


Thanks very much corey. It might help me in IHOF (you'll see :evil:)

[cthomer5000]

I think SkyDog deemed it unsticky-worth for some unknown reason. Speculation about a game can make it, facts about an existing game do not.

[Ben E Lou]

...or maybe I made a mistake, thinking I'd stickied it. Thanks for assuming the worst. :rolleyes:

[cthomer5000]

...or maybe I made a mistake, thinking I'd stickied it. Thanks for assuming the worst. :rolleyes:
Well, you questioned the sticky worthiness of both this thread and the coaching salary bug thread. I would say it was a pretty educated guess.

[Ben E Lou]

Ummmm...I questioned it because you yourself called it "a work in progress."

[cthomer5000]

Ummmm...I questioned it because you yourself called it "a work in progress."Actually, you asked if it was a work in progress, and I responded.

Regardless, thanks for incuding it in the sticky thread (if you choose to do so).

[Ben E Lou]

You forgot, apparently. I used the phrase "work in progress" because those were the exact words of the person who posted in the sticky thread asking me to link to it (I think that person is you, but I'm not certain). I left that post in the sticky thread for quite some time, then came into this thread and asked if it was *still* a work in progress.

[cthomer5000]

I couldn't say whether I did or did not use that languange when requesting this be added, as it was some time before the thread got touched.

Regardless, you came in here, asked about it, then didn't add it. I assumed that was a conscious decision on your part.

Sorry if I offended you in some way by suggesting that was the case.

[Ben E Lou]

No, it wasn't a conscious decision. When I add a requested link, such as this one, it is a multi-step process, including deleting the post requesting the link, editing the sticky thread, copying the link, pasting the link, etc., and I usually add two or three links in one sitting. I'm quite sure what happened is that I left off a step, much like I apparently did with the 2004 rosters, as is mentioned in the thread right now.

[gstelmack]

Hehehe, a fight over whether or not a thread was once considered "sticky-worthy" or not ;-)

BTW, anyone figured out the position limitations on this? I'm thinking the next version of DraftAnalyzer may tell you what pro positions a player could possibly play (nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)

[flere-imsaho]

(nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)

I'd quite possibly pay money* to know what the limitations on moving a *ILB to MLB are, for this very reason, and for the sake of my hair that I pull out every time this happens.....


*OK, not really....

[WSUCougar]

cthomer: "You got your peanut butter in my chocolate!"

SkyDog: "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!"

cthomer: "You got your Georgia on my Rutgers!"

SkyDog: "You got your Rutgers on my Georgia!"

[cthomer5000]

BTW, anyone figured out the position limitations on this? I'm thinking the next version of DraftAnalyzer may tell you what pro positions a player could possibly play (nothing quite like drafting an SILB and finding out he can't switch to MLB...)Linebackers can always move within the LB positions as long as their weight is in the correct ranges. I've posted it above in one of those tables, but to 'move' a player to MLB (or any ILB position), they need to be between 230 and 275 pounds. So if you draft a 219 pound MLB, he's either stuck at MLB, or you can move him to safety.

[gstelmack]

Linebackers can always move within the LB positions as long as their weight is in the correct ranges. I've posted it above in one of those tables, but to 'move' a player to MLB (or any ILB position), they need to be between 230 and 275 pounds. So if you draft a 219 pound MLB, he's either stuck at MLB, or you can move him to safety.

Understood, and that's why I'm going to put it in. It's the other position changes you hinted at (DE not going to C) that I was wondering about. I'd hate to lie to someone about where a player they're about to draft can go ;)

But if no one has that, I'll either play around with it myself or wait for the bug reports to roll in...

[gstelmack]

I'm gathering some quick data. Looks like:

RB/FB can't move to LB (and vice-versa)
DE can't move to OL/TE
TE can't move to DL/LB

At least at a quick glance. There may well be more restrictions (and some are implicit in the weight restrictions, although I have not checked, say, a light DE in college if he can become a RB).

[gstelmack]

A bit more data: apparently the breakdowns may need to be more detailed than just "OLB". I have a 269-lb LDE that I just drafted who can switch to:

RDE
SLB
SILB
MLB
WILB

No Weak-Side Linebacker shows up.

(now watches cthomer roll eyes wondering "where was all this input 3 months ago when I was trying to put this together?")

I have a couple of T that can't switch to DE, so that appears to be a 2-way street. And I confirmed that a light DE can't move to RB once drafted. I'm generating a table for Draft Analyzer. Here's what I've got so far:

static const bool kCanSwitchFrom[CFOFDraftAnalyzerDlg::kPositionCount][CFOFDraftAnalyzerDlg::kPositionCount] =
{
// QB, RB, FB, TE, WR, C, T, G, DT, DE, ILB, OLB, CB, S, P, K
{ true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kQuarterback
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false, false, false, true, true, false, false } // kRunningBack
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false, false, false, true, true, false, false } // kFullback
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false, false, false, true, true, false, false } // kTightEnd
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kWideReceiver
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kCenter
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kTackle
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kGuard
,{false, false, false, false, false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kDefensiveTackle
,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kDefensiveEnd
,{false, false, false, false, false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kInsideLinebacker
,{false, false, false, false, false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kOutsideLinebacker
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kCornerback
,{false, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, false, false } // kSafety
,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, true, true } // kPunter
,{false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, true, true } // kKicker
};

You index by current position group, then target. So find the row for your current position group of the player, then go across for all potential positions, then apply weight restrictions. This does not account for WLB/SLB differences as described above, but is close.

[cthomer5000]

wow, that SLB but not WLB is seriously strange. thanks for the info, I'll take a close look when I have game access again.

[Runtheball]

Of course a DT can switch to NT, but would you expect ANY skill loss? Is it worth it to actually change his position designation, or would you simply line him up at NT without actually switching his position? Is there any penalty to his performance for playing out-of-position since he's a DT playing the role of a NT?

[gstelmack]

It depends. If he's a DT drafted out of college that does not have the weight for one of the DT positions, he won't be able to switch. I've got a SS for me now that was drafted as an SILB, and when I went to a 4-3 and discovered he was too light to play any ILB position, I moved him to SS.

But in most cases my switches from LDT <-> NT <-> RDT <-> LDT incur no potential loss, but they do still incur an experience loss. Which means leave them alone and play them where you want.

This is also when you get mad when the scout says "Hey, you should be playing a 4-3!" and ruins your star NT by switching him to LDT and costing him experience (not that this has ever happened to me or anything...)

[gstelmack]

Another interesting idea for investigation if someone has time: I'm finding a lot of college players imported from TCY that are a bit light to play their position in the NFL. For example, 270-lb DTs play fine in college but are more DE material, or ILBs from college that can only play OLB or S in the NFL.

It would be interesting to see if these guys develop well at the position they draft in, or if they are more likely to bust than normal. Will they develop better in a different position?

[cuervo72]

I've always thought it would be interesting if players could "grow into" positions...IOW, if player weights were dynamic.

[gstelmack]

In case anyone is curious, here is a breakdown of the current NFL by position with average height, sample-based standard deviation for height, average weight, and sample-based standard deviation for weight:


Ht Av StDv Wt Av StDv
C Result 75.13 1.30 288.17 23.37
DB Result 71.68 1.82 199.19 16.22
DE Result 75.83 1.35 276.28 15.61
DT Result 75.07 1.50 306.07 16.20
FB Result 72.16 1.50 238.25 16.62
G Result 75.94 1.15 313.22 19.30
K Result 72.32 2.31 202.59 18.20
LB Result 73.62 1.52 240.36 9.97
P Result 74.09 1.88 212.15 16.24
QB Result 74.70 1.55 221.68 14.19
RB Result 71.16 1.79 220.80 17.24
T Result 77.31 1.51 315.25 19.06
TE Result 76.05 1.35 256.88 10.50
WR Result 72.63 2.17 200.60 14.35
Grand Total 73.93 2.53 246.27 45.70

[gstelmack]

Rhone Ranger has discovered that the weights have tweaked a bit in 5.1a (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=32708):

RB 265 or less
FB/TE 210 and up
WR 235 or less
C any
G 270 and up
T 275 and up
DT 280 and up
DE 255-315
ILB 215-280
SLB 220-275
WLB 220-270
CB 225 or less
S 235 or less
I'm not sure I agree about Center; has anyone seen a player under 260 that can switch to Center? Either there is still a minimum, or there are position requirements on this (I've got a 259-lb TE that can't go to Center).

Also note the different maxes for SLB/WLB, which pins down a query I had above. I'm also trying to pin down if the drop from 230 -> 215 for ILB is only for SILB/WILB, or if it applies to MLB as well. A bit more digging needs to be done here.

[gstelmack]

Okay, time to REALLY get to the bottom of this. I've created a spreadsheet and posted it at http://home.nc.rr.com/gstelmack/PositionWeights.xls. If you are interested in contributing and are using FOF2k4 5.1a, here's what I'd like you to do:

1. Download the spreadsheet.
2. Print your 5.1a team roster to a text file, open in Excel, and copy the player name, position, and weight columns into this spreadsheet.
3. Go through your roster and attempt to change every player to every position that he can be changed to.
4. Fill in the columns for the players as follows:

-1 = player already at this position
0 = can't change
1-99 = game-reported ratings change
100 = can switch with no change
110 = switch could increase ratings

5. E-mail your spreadsheet back to me at [email protected].

I'll compile these into one giant spreadsheet which I'll share with anyone who wants it. The goal here is to use this to determine which positions can switch to which other positions, what weight ranges apply, and what determines how successful the switch will be (weight only, weight + originating position, or hidden attributes we can't predict?). Those results will be posted (again, I'll share the spreadsheet, so anyone who wants to help with analysis can as well).

In addition, I'll use the results to update Draft Analyzer. What I'd like to be able to do is show possible NFL positions like:

SLB+ MLB WLB LCB- RCB- SS-- FS--

where the listed positions are those that are possible, while a "+" indicates better at that position, no modifier means little or no change, "-" is some change, and "--" is a big change.

The spreadsheet shows a sample from one team I've got at home, and I've got another team or two I can add to it to get more data. But the more players we've got, the better the results will be.

[Pyser]

i just drafted an olb that weighed 220. he was too light to move to ilb. im on 5.1a.

[gstelmack]

i just drafted an olb that weighed 220. he was too light to move to ilb. im on 5.1a.
Agreed. In the 3 test teams I've been through so far this weekend, no one under 225 can move to ILB. I've got a pair of WLB (223/224) that cannot move to any of the ILB positions.

[Pyser]

i have a 225 olb that can move to cb, and a 235 that can move to safety. these are higher weights than 5.0. 236 is too heavy to move to safety. de has dropped to at least 255 (lowest ive found so far). 280 seems to be as heavy as you can be to move to olb, which is more than 5.0. 280 also seems to be the lightest a player can be to move to dt. i found a 297 player that can move to de, but 300 cannot. i think 299 is the heaviest a de can be.

[Pyser]

5.0..................................5.1a
pos min max.......................min....max
QB n/a n/a ........................n/a.....n/a
RB none 260 ......................none..
FB 215 280* ......................210
TE 215 280* ......................210
WR none 230 ......................none..235
C 260* none.......................260....none
G 275 none ........................275....none
T 280 none ........................275...none
DE 260 299 .......................255....320
DT 290 none .....................280....none
ILB 230 275 ......................225....280
OLB 220 270 .....................220....280
CB none 220 .....................none...225
S none 230 .......................none....235

this isnt exact...it was done fairly quickly. if you find an exception, copy a repaste with your new finding.

sometimes you need to switch a player to another position first to have them eligible for others. for instance, a 230 lb wr is only eligible for rb and safety, but once switched to safety, is then eligible for olb, ilb, etc.

also, it seems some players can play different positions at different weights. i found a player who could switch to de at 320, but some at 318 who couldnt. so this list is not exact...it seems there are more variables.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Okay, time to REALLY get to the bottom of this. I've created a spreadsheet and posted it at http://home.nc.rr.com/gstelmack/PositionWeights.xls. If you are interested in contributing and are using FOF2k4 5.1a, here's what I'd like you to do:

...

5. E-mail your spreadsheet back to me at [email protected].

...
Greg, I've started on it and I'll send you 3 teams as soon as I am finished (i expect in a couple of days as it is a pretty time-consuming process...).

Can't wait to see the results.

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - after doing some 50 odd players so far, I'm pretty sure experience plays a role in the conversion as well. For example, 2 guys at the same position with the same weight have different % conversion whether they're rookies or veterans.

So my question to you Greg is this, do you want us to add an experience column to your spreadsheet ?

[gstelmack]

dola - after doing some 50 odd players so far, I'm pretty sure experience plays a role in the conversion as well. For example, 2 guys at the same position with the same weight have different % conversion whether they're rookies or veterans.

So my question to you Greg is this, do you want us to add an experience column to your spreadsheet ?
Sure, go ahead. I wasn't sure that was going to play into it when I started, and I have not seen the case you've stated. I was afraid that was going to play a role...

[gstelmack]

I am tempted, once we get this info collated and reach some conclusions, to start a new thread with the fresh data.

A couple of things are clear so far:

- There are definite ranges of weights for each position (which we already knew). However, these ranges get a bit more detailed than we thought. It's clear that the WLB and SLB weight ranges do differ slightly. Still checking other positions.

- Position switching from can restrict what positions you switch to. I'm not sure my earlier post on this is complete, but I'm getting a very clear grasp of this picture now.

- Position switching from and weight combine to tell you how well you'll be able to switch. There are minor differences among detailed positions; for example, you'll get slightly different values for switching to FS vs. SS.

- Rookie vs. veteran may matter, but years as a veteran don't seem to. I've got a 3rd year and 7th year RB at the same weight with the same values at all positions.

- I think (not a proven conclusion yet) that there is an "ideal" weight for each position, and the difference between this and a player's actual weight determine how good the switch will be. At the very least there is a definite bell curve going, where light players and heavy players have similar difficulties switching, and players in the middle have less difficulty. Then there are penalties (bonuses as well?) based on what position you switch from. It's clear, for example, that a 220-lb QB and a 220-lb WR will have different value as a 220-lb RB.

More details once the spreadsheet has more data.

[gstelmack]

A bump (in case anyone else wants to contribute data) and an update:

I'm so far verifying my conclusions from above. I'm holding off on final conclusions until I get froggie's data to help fill in some blanks, but I hope to have something soon.

[fantastic flying froggies]

FYI, 2 1/2 teams done, one half left to go...

Also, it would be really good if we could get data from others as well...

[gstelmack]

Also, it would be really good if we could get data from others as well...
Agreed. Even with your teams, I'm still only going to have like 12 FBs. The end result will be more accurate with more teams. If I get time, I may do another team or two (I just generate a new fictional universe and run through my team. Takes about 1.5 hours total or so).

[gstelmack]

I don't have froggie's data yet, but I wanted to confirm some of the assumptions I gave above, so I looked at all my players that can convert to RB. For those following along, I've updated the spreadsheet at http://home.nc.rr.com/gstelmack/PositionWeights.xls with my latest data and an attempt to predict RBs.

What I've found is that by using the following steps, I can predict what the game will claim the final attributes are for a player switching to RB to within a point (at least for all my test cases):



If the player is more than (or equal to?) 265 pounds, no switch.
If the player is a C, G, T, P, K, DE, DT, ILB, or OLB, no switch.
Start with 100. NOTE: Spreadsheet uses 88, but that was just helping me normalize the values the game gave.
If the player is a rookie, add 10.
If the player is a:


QB, subtract 37
FB, subtract 32
TE, subtract 27
WR, subtract 25
CB, subtract 12
S, subtract 27


If the player is under 215 pounds, subtract ((214-weight)/2)
If the player is over 219 pounds, subtract ((weight-220)/2)
With that formula, I'm within +/- 1 on all my players, generally +1 close to the 215-219 ideal weight range, and -1 farther out. This means that the weight adjustment is not linear, but I don't think 1 point will change someone's mind about switching a player (and more importantly would have little bearing in a draft situation), so this works well enough for my desired uses. I welcome attempts by any of the math people out there to make this more exact.

Once I figure out the formulae for the remaining positions, I can update Draft Analyzer to give a reasonably solid guess about how well a player will switch instead of a simple yes/no.

The big surprise in all this for me was how poor FBs will be when switched to RB. I almost wonder if this is a bug. I'd expect FBs to generally make reasonable RBs, but an ideal-weight 217-lb rookie FB in my test case would only retain 78% of his attributes when switched to RB. I've actually signed on FA FB in the past who wasn't much of a blocker but had some running skills, thinking he'd make a reasonable RB. I was wrong, and it looks like that will never work.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Greg, I am finally done and e-mailed you the excel spreadsheet with my 3 teams. Let me know if there are any problems with it.

[azjoe_02]

I can't wait till this is finished. I appreciate all the work you guys are doing on it.

[gstelmack]

I'm running into some issues with figuring out the ILB position. Some of the source doesn't make sense unless I assume there are hidden attributes that apply. Or, it's being complicated by the fact that SLBs and WLBs are being treated differently. The analysis is getting complex...

[gstelmack]

Spreadsheet updated again. It has all of froggie's players (which ended up validating the RB formulae), and I'm close on the ILB data (within +/- 2 for non-ILBs switching to MLB). If anyone wants to take a stab at any of the other positions, please feel free. This is going slow and will take a while.

[QuikSand]

Bump with a few very minor updates on this topic.


I have been fiddling with a small data set so far, looking at linebackers who can move to play defensive end. So far, most of the results are pretty mundane:

* The heavier the better, thus far -- I'm sure there is an ideal weight for th DE position, and it must be at least in the mid 270s, since all the LBs I have switched so far have been below that, and they universally get a higher conversion % from my scout with a higher weight. Fits with gstelmack's findings above -- there does seem to be a "sweet spot" and in this case, it does seem to be fairly tough to locate linebackers that heavy

* Outside linebackers are prone to a better switch % than are inside linebackers of equal weight -- the difference seems to be about 3% worth, which is not inconsiderable, especially when the range of these switches is generally around 88-95%

* So far, I don't see any difference between switching a WLB and a SLB - also consistent with gstelmack's earlier findings, that this is managed by "group"



However -- I am finding a few things that are a bit more interesting. All preliminary, of course - but a teaser or two here:

* I'm finding very little pattern between how well the scout says the switch is going to go, and how well the player actually translates to the new position. With a small set (and scout error that is admittedly meaningful with low caliber players) I am seeing almost no correlation between the success of the switch for my players at 92-95% compared to those at 88-90%.

* I am finding that the position switch can, at leat sometimes, yield a sort of "quirky" result in one specific category. I have two players who have seen their endurance ratings change substantialy in this move from LB to DE -- one guy jumped by about 20 point in one trial (not made no meaningful change in others), another guy had about a 20/35 point drop to a complete void in one trial (but was unharmed in others). I have yet to see this in another category, though it may just be coincidence that this has happened both times in endurance.


A few open thoughts about this:

- We know that in FOF 2004, there are ratings "voids" for certain players -- guy who look generally fine in their respective ratings, but then have an odd zero for something or another. It's an interesting quirk in the game, I think (I kinda wish there were more of these players). But we really don't understand this well at all -- the fact that one of my players seemed to "develop" a void in endurance (not droppping to 3/6 or something, but dropping to an absolute 0/0 rating) makes me think that perhaps this is something special -- maybe the mechanism for the voided ratings is peculiar in some way? Maybe it's strictly a function of the scout? Maybe the player really does have skills/ratings there, and we ajust aren't seeing them? Beats me... just thinking openly.

- In another career, I switched a very solid RB to play WR mid-career, and while he made the switch fairly painlessly and became a productive WR, I was surprised to see that he miraculously developed excellent return skills (both PR and KR) after the position switch -- they, too, just sprang from nowhere. As I recall, he had zero ratings in both PR and KR afterward, and after the position switch, he suddenly had high ratings in both. Maybe a position switch is a possible "cure" for a ratings void? Maybe even a harmless position switch -- like bumping a rookie SLB to WLB or the like might turn that zero into a decent rating, perhaps making a deeply flawed player into a valuable one in the process?


Haven't done much testing yet... I'm better with the "forming hypotheses" segment of the scientific method anyway.

[jamesUMD]

It's funny that you mention this topic. I read through it and I was checking a few of my guys just to see who could switch to what. It's usually 3-4 spots that a player can switch to. I have a underacheiving, and under progressing safety that I took with the 19th pick of the draft in the wigfl. For the record he is 6' 1", 226 lbs. I checked, and I have never seen this before. He can switch to the following positions:
RB, FB, FL, SE, SLB, SILB, MLB, WILB, WLB, or FS.

It's Jim Jensen reincarnated (I'm probably dating myself). Has anyone ever seen so many options for 1 player?

[QuikSand]

...every DB with that weight.

[QuikSand]

One continuing theory about position switches. Unsupported, of course.

I'm guessing that one thing that happens when a player's position is switched is that the scout gets a "new look" at him... along the lines of when a rookie player joins your team for the first time, you get a slightly different look. I'm guessing that, in essence, the dice-rolling for scout error is re-done at this point, and this is what explains most of the uncertainty in the switch process.

My best guess is that when your scout says the player is going to retain 90% of his ratings (for instance) in the switch, that in reality that's what ends up happening, however it's actually calculated. However, I think what's also happening is that one set of scout error is stripped out, and replaced with another (potentially in a new category, with a different magnitude of precision) -- and so we are sometimes seeing guys who are (to continue the example) holding the 90% opf their ratings, but they seem to be changing in potential from, say, 54 to 38. What's really happening in these cases, perhaps, is that the guy is actually dropping from 50 to 45, and really is keeping 90% of his previous rating, but the scout error on both ends of the transaction makes it look like a bigger swing than it really is.

Just idle speculation... I think the next game file I open up to tinker with this will include an outstanding scout, at least in the areas I'm focusing on.

[Crim]

Pardon my rookieness, and not to threadjack (since I think this lies just outside the scope of what's being studied in this thread), but with seemingly routine changes like RDT<>LDT, LG<>RG, etc., are there usually any sort of ratings changes for these players?

And thanks for all the above info! A big help for lazy/stupid people like me!


Crim

[Plundun]

- In another career, I switched a very solid RB to play WR mid-career, and while he made the switch fairly painlessly and became a productive WR, I was surprised to see that he miraculously developed excellent return skills (both PR and KR) after the position switch -- they, too, just sprang from nowhere. As I recall, he had zero ratings in both PR and KR afterward, and after the position switch, he suddenly had high ratings in both. Maybe a position switch is a possible "cure" for a ratings void? Maybe even a harmless position switch -- like bumping a rookie SLB to WLB or the like might turn that zero into a decent rating, perhaps making a deeply flawed player into a valuable one in the process?



I think that example is position and skill-specific. The same 4 positions have punt and kick return skills in TCY and FOF2004. But whereas in TCY I have had PRs and KRs from every one of these position it always seem to be WRs and CBs who hold up their good return skills in FOF2004. I think RBs and Safeties might get some sort of penalty to these skills that perhaps disappeared when you made the switch.
I play mostly with ported players from TCY and the low KR/PR ranking of RBs and safeties might of course be one of the quirks that still exist (TEs always 0 in Big Play Receiving, UCLA and Southern Cal switched around)
In other words I don't think you can get dramatic bumps changing a WLB to a SLB. Generally however it almost always pays off changing a MLB to a OLB or reverse. As long as he has the physical stats to make the switch you will always get the message that he will be the same or slightly better and it usually follows through.
In fact I think there is a correlation between gains from the position switch and gains during training camp. I only switch rookies and always before the training camp and I believe that the bigger the gain when changing the bigger the gain in training camp.
NB This last example is only when changing MLB and OLB.

[gstelmack]

Pardon my rookieness, and not to threadjack (since I think this lies just outside the scope of what's being studied in this thread), but with seemingly routine changes like RDT<>LDT, LG<>RG, etc., are there usually any sort of ratings changes for these players?
In most cases, the answer is no, although there can sometimes be a minor little hit. However, note that draftees (especially from TCY) are not always at the right weight for their position. For example, I drafted an SILB who is now playing SS for me because he was below weight at ILB. He could not switch to MLB or WILB.

[mcsestretch]

In most cases, the answer is no, although there can sometimes be a minor little hit. However, note that draftees (especially from TCY) are not always at the right weight for their position. For example, I drafted an SILB who is now playing SS for me because he was below weight at ILB. He could not switch to MLB or WILB.

I wish I had seen this thread before I posted a new one...

I am trying to find what ratings indicate how well a player will translate from one position to another. Obviously weight determines what position a player may change to but I'm wondering if it also determines how well he will play the new position.

I've tried to find a direct correlation with loyalty/leadership/intelligence/personality/volatility but I can't find a direct correlation with any of them.

After looking at the data for a couple of days I was ready to start beating my head against a wall.

Anybody have any ideas?

[st.cronin]

I wish I had seen this thread before I posted a new one...

I am trying to find what ratings indicate how well a player will translate from one position to another. Obviously weight determines what position a player may change to but I'm wondering if it also determines how well he will play the new position.

I've tried to find a direct correlation with loyalty/leadership/intelligence/personality/volatility but I can't find a direct correlation with any of them.

After looking at the data for a couple of days I was ready to start beating my head against a wall.

Anybody have any ideas?

I think I remember reading that the closer a player is to the 'ideal' weight for the position he is switching to, the better the switch. For example, say the ideal weight for RB is 220 (I have no idea what it *actually* is). Two FBs of equal ability, one weighing 240, one weighing 230. The 230 lber would be the better candidate.

[jbmagic]

is it better not to switch the player position?

Put the player where you want them to play in the depth chart.

and you dont get any reduce penalty by doing that like you do if you change a player position right?

[gstelmack]

I am trying to find what ratings indicate how well a player will translate from one position to another. Obviously weight determines what position a player may change to but I'm wondering if it also determines how well he will play the new position.
Player and position switching from appear to be the ONLY factors. The spreadsheet I posted earlier backs this up. There appears to be a random tweak (if it says 98%, you might end up with 95-100% or something similar), although Quik is trying to prove that that may just be differences in how the scout views the two positions.

As for playing out of position vs. switching, there was a separate investigation going on. For small roster holes due to injury, I tend to play out of position if possible, but you can also draft guys who will actually play BETTER at a new position than their old. For longer-term solutions, I directly switch. But I also don't switch unless the guy will be 90% or better without a darn good reason.

[QuikSand]

I ram a few tests incolving running backs converting to wide recever -- it's a pretty frequent place to try a transition, I think -- i frequently see RBs who go undrafted, and have spotty skills that probably mean they won't be successful as RBs, but who have pretty good receving skills, and are worth a look there. In fact, in the random career I used to do my study, I found one undrafted RB who turned into a pretty solid-looking rookie WR -- a guy I'd probably be happy to have grapped in about the third round of the draft.

So...a couple very preliminary observations about shifting fairly untalented RBs to become flankers:

- There are several "core" receiving skills that you can see for a RB -- for the most part, your scout's assessment of how well the player will translate seems to apply pretty well to these ratings, on average. If your scout says a given RB will retain 90% of his ratings, then you can expect things like "route running" and "avoid drops" to drop by around 10% -- in averaging the loss in potential in these ratings, the numbers have a vague correlation to the predicted skill loss. Not perfect, but in most cases probably with in the range that could be attributable to scouting error.

- The ratings that are not visible for a RB but are important for a WR include Big Play Receiving (a single value rating, never any difference between current and future values for any player), Courage, and Adjust to Ball. As nearly as I can tell so far, these rating seem to be treated differently in the game during these switches. It looks to me like these ratings are some combination initially pre-determined, but with some occasional (random?) element of change included in the transition. Most times, a giveb player will escape from the position switch with a certain new rating in these areas -- but occasionally there will be a completely different result. I have seen one player, on consecutive trials, convert to a WR with a "Courage" rating of 2/8, and then with a 43/71 -- this is clearly well beyond scouting error, it's something altogether different. (I think there might be less flexibility in the outcome of the BPR rating -- but don't have enough trials to say conclusively)

- I looked for surface connections between the eventual results in these new attributes and anything else that might be used as a predictor -- and haven't found anything. The combine 40-yard-dash time, for instance, doesn't seem to connect at all to the player's eventual ability in Big Play Receiving, for example -- if anything, it seems like the BPR rating is connected just to the player's overall abilities, i.e the better the player is overall, the better the generated BPR score will be.

- There is definitely something weird going on with return skills, which are visible for both RB and WR positions. I'm seeing running backs with zero or minimal return skills turn into receivers with at least passable return skills (say 20/30) on a regular basis - there's a lot of change here, and nearly all of it for the better (though I confess I'm not using a lot of RBs who actually have great return skills to begin with).


Nothing conclusive... but just thought I'd share some impressions.