Starforce Copy Protection

[Blackadar]

Oh, it just keeps getting better. I've been following this for a couple of weeks.

I'm cutting and pasting from a Gone Gold thread...the following was written by Jeff Jones over there.
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Hey all,

I wanted to start this thread to discuss this new, invasive, obnoxious copy protection scheme. For a primer see this thread on Soldiers of WW2 and this one on the D-Day demo.

Here's what we know so far:

* Starforce is an extremely aggressive method of copy protection that actually works at the hardware level of your PC.

* It installs device drivers WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE or CONSENT.

* these device drivers are HIDDEN from normal view. They can be displayed by opening Device Manager, and clicking on "View" and then on "Show Hidden Devices"

* Even DEMOS install Starforce! as if there could be ANY possible reason for copy protecting a DEMO. [Mad]

* Removal of the full game or demo that installed the drivers DOES NOT REMOVE THE STARFORCE DEVICE DRIVERS.

* important: manual removal of the device drivers can result in severe system problems. Some users have reported having to fully format and reinstall their OS, others have reported that their CD drives no longer read certain CD's after removal. DO NOT ATTEMPT MANUAL REMOVAL, instead, use the Starforce Remover located at my website. Note: I did not create this remover, I'm just hosting it.

* as far as I know, there is NO MENTION of the Starforce drivers in the EULA's of games that use it. If anyone knows different, please let us know.
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Here's a few other details. Starforce generally will prevent either the game or Nero from working if you have both on your system. It also screwed up my Cakewalk Pyro software as well - I had to reinstall and didn't know why until I put 2 and 2 together. Starforce's device drivers can slow down your system - this also happend to me. There is some evidence that Starforce also acts as Spyware and "calls home" - though concrete evidence and purpose still haven't been established.

Some of the games that use Starforce: Beyond Divinity, Soldiers: HoWWII, Silent Storm and ToCA Race Driver 2. You can find out if you're infected (since this shit works like a worm or virus, that word is appropriate) if you regedit and scan for the word "starforce".

Copy protection is one thing. Installing something that...

1. You don't know is there and aren't informed is being installed on your system,
2. Screws up existing, legal software ON PURPOSE (Starforce is designed to screw up CD and DVD burning softare),
3. Won't uninstall when you uninstall the program,
-and-
4. Writes new drivers and adversely effects your system

...is entirely another story. How is this different from a worm or virus except you actually PAY for this crap?

Grrr...I can say that I won't be buying any more games that have this crap on it. It's just not worth the damage to my system or the elevation of my blood pressure.

[Draft Dodger]

yeah - nasty, nasty stuff. no matter what you think about piracy, installing crap like that on your machine without your consent should be illegal.

[SlapBone]

I think a current list of distributors/games would be cool.

[Ragone]

well i found it on my system.. and i've never come close to those games.. so you all might wanna run regedit and search for starforce..

[Critch]

I downloaded the demos for Pro Rugby Manager (the game SirFozzie is using in his dynasty) and Chaos League (mentioned in our game impressions board) and both of them had StarForce3. Both games are from Cyanide Games, so I guess they're using it for all their stuff now. As soon as I ran both demos, my sygate firewall told me the demo was trying to phone home so looks like it does try.

There's a StarForce3 remover tool (http://www.codemasters.co.uk/downloads/displayfiles.php?showdetails=13989) which removes everything and clears out the registry. I've tried it and it seems to have done the trick.

(If the StarForce3 doesn't bother you, give Chaos League a try, it's good. Strange that a company that appears to have ripped off Blood Bowl completely should be so defensive of their own stuff :) )

[Ragone]

well chaos league is where i got it from

[Marc Vaughan]

(If the StarForce3 doesn't bother you, give Chaos League a try, it's good. Strange that a company that appears to have ripped off Blood Bowl completely should be so defensive of their own stuff )
As a big fan of both Blood Bowl and Chaos League I'd have to indicate that their is a very large difference between the two.

The Blood Bowl 'concept' (ie. fantasy races playing a 'real-world' sport) itself was likely derived from various things which existed before its conception (both comic books and computer games) and so to say CL is a rip-off of it when its got a huge difference in play style isn't really fair.

(sorry to take this tone - but I know how hard the chaps at Cyanide must have worked on CL and I feel its a tad unfair to simply indicate that they 'stole' everything ...)

PS. Very interested to hear your comments on Star Force, its a very solid protection system from what I've heard and is widely used in Asia and other high piracy areas (I believe our Korean distributor put it onto CM4 & CM03-04 in that territory for instance) with great success.
No idea regarding its 'spyware' elements as I haven't investigated it for our releases in Europe/America I would be surprised to hear of any protection system taking the approach of affecting other installed programs on purpose simply because of the likely legal implications involved ... if anyone has details on this side of things forward them onto me please.

[SirFozzie]

Marc: I hate to say it, but if StarForce goes on SIGames material, then I for one won't buy it. Take a look at the thread mentioned in the first posts (I can direct link you)..

[Blackadar]

PS. Very interested to hear your comments on Star Force, its a very solid protection system from what I've heard and is widely used in Asia and other high piracy areas (I believe our Korean distributor put it onto CM4 & CM03-04 in that territory for instance) with great success.
No idea regarding its 'spyware' elements as I haven't investigated it for our releases in Europe/America I would be surprised to hear of any protection system taking the approach of affecting other installed programs on purpose simply because of the likely legal implications involved ... if anyone has details on this side of things forward them onto me please.

Marc:

I can say with certainty that Starforce is designed to disable certain copying software. If you look, many of the games that have Starforce protection are European in nature - and in some Countries (Germany, I think among others) in the EU copying software isn't totally legal. So Starforce purposely prevents either the Starforce-protected software or the copying programs from working. Nero is by far the most common issue, but there are others. I've heard of issues with Bittorrent.

I personally had issues with Pyro after a Starforce-protected game was installed on my system. Worked fine before installation of said game, didn't work at all after the installation. Only after removing Pyro from my reg and reinstalling it did I get it to work - and that only after removing the game and Starforce. I don't think it was coincidence.

Also, I think it's absurd that it won't uninstall when you install the Starforce-protected program. There is sits, lurking. Trying to regedit it out of your system will very likely screw up Windows so badly that you have to reformat your hard disk. Do NOT try this. Only by using a special removal software (conveniently little-known and never included with the protected program) can it be eliminated - and only then with some small risk.

Again, the Spyware aspects are not proven. But folks with firewalls claim to have seen Starforce try to "call home" for some reason.

[Blackadar]

Marc: I hate to say it, but if StarForce goes on SIGames material, then I for one won't buy it. Take a look at the thread mentioned in the first posts (I can direct link you)..

Ditto.

[Shepp]

I am definately going to stay away from games that use this sort of copy protection. I can't think of an argument that could be made for installing components that deliberately interfere with the operation of other software that I have LEGALY bought and use.

Not to mention that the time I have spent tuning my PC to get the best possible performance is being flushed down the drain because of this.

I wonder if the user agreement of the games that use Starforce say anything about its installation with their package?

[Draft Dodger]

Marc: I hate to say it, but if StarForce goes on SIGames material, then I for one won't buy it. Take a look at the thread mentioned in the first posts (I can direct link you)..

I would refuse to by ANY SIGames EVER if any of their products used this crap.

[Mr. Wednesday]

It's entirely possible that this is illegal spyware in Utah (pending the court case being brought by the spyware houses), considering that:
* It may not be mentioned during the game install
* It reportedly tries to phone home
* It does not have an uninstall option that will uninstall it cleanly

[SirFozzie]

I would refuse to by ANY SIGames EVER if any of their products used this crap.

(Please note, I'm not knocking you DD, I'm honestly curious)

Do you mean if any American released games used Starforce? Or is this a worldwide thing.. (remembering Marc Vaughn admitting he thought that their Korean distributor used Starforce)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you mean if any American released games used Starforce?

I can't speak for DD, but since my answer was about to be pretty much the same as his (and several others) -- Yes, my objection applies only to American-released games ... or any imports that I might buy.

In other words, I ain't buying squat that's got this crap on it, there is NO game, past/present/future, that's worth putting up with this sort of garbage.

(And that's coming from one of the more staunch defenders of copyright around these parts)

[SirFozzie]

Personally, if a developer deliberately put it on any of their software worldwide, it would be cause to reconsider my using their software (not as bad as US-centric software with this crap on it). In cases like SIGames, if their Korean distributor puts it on, no blame attached to them I'd say.

[Draft Dodger]

(Please note, I'm not knocking you DD, I'm honestly curious)

Do you mean if any American released games used Starforce? Or is this a worldwide thing.. (remembering Marc Vaughn admitting he thought that their Korean distributor used Starforce)

I find any type of protection that uses a virus like this is completely revolting and dishonest. It's one thing to have something like Kazaa which openly advertises that it will be installing extra software on your computer - the user can make their own decision as to whether it is worth the tradeoff or not. IMO, software that does this without your knowledge, especially when it's done in this way to make if very difficult to remove the software, is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I would want to have all the facts first, but yes, I think I would be hesitant of buying software from any company whose distrbutors might use this kind of malware, even if the distributors are for overseas customers. So, yes, if SIGames uses distributors who use this crap, I would probably avoid SIGames altogether in the future.

A few years ago, I had some major computer problems that persisted for months. What I finally discovered what that it was related to adware that Creative Labs had secretly installed on my computer with a product of theirs that I was using. The adware was poorly written, and caused severe conflicts with my browser, and it was some time before I finally figured out it was there. That was 3 or 4 years ago - want to guess how many products I've purchased from Creative since then?

[SirFozzie]

Marc, don't know if you guys are reading this, but care to run this by the folks over on the business side, and see if you can set our nerves at ease (whether your distributors have used this in the past, or if you plan to do so in the future) ? I REALLY don't want to lose out on the SIGames products, but obviously, there's a tempest brewing, and I don't want EHMFE to be my last purchase of your games.

[SlapBone]

Just removed it from my machine (left over from Chaos League). Well... I was on the fence about this game.

If I get it now I will get the pirated copy with the copy protection stripped out.

[SirFozzie]

Just removed it from my machine (left over from Chaos League). Well... I was on the fence about this game.

If I get it now I will get the pirated copy with the copy protection stripped out.

I know this is going to sound weird from me, but I hope you don't.

If people just shrug, and pirate the game anyway, that will have validated the "copy-protection gulag" side's opinion.

Just do without, and let the developer know you are not purchasing their game, and why.

[SlapBone]

I know this is going to sound weird from me, but I hope you don't.

If people just shrug, and pirate the game anyway, that will have validated the "copy-protection gulag" side's opinion.

Just do without, and let the developer know you are not purchasing their game, and why.


Did I say that out loud?

I think I really just said it to draw MV's attention to it. I just purchased my EHM online and have played nothing else for the last 9 days.

I purchased CM4 after a pirated copy was offered to me.

I purchased CM 03/04 after a pirated copy was offered to me.

I WILL NOT purchase a game with this protection in it, including anything from SIGAMES

[SirFozzie]

Some of the Digital Jesters folks (the folks behind Chaos League) tried to pooh-pooh Starforce, one DJ person going so far as to say that people were just upset with it because people couldn't crack TOCA Race Car Driver 2 after several months.

My response:


So.. what you're saying is:

That Starforce DOESN'T install HIDDEN device drivers without permission.

That Starforce DOESN'T fail to uninstall itself when you uninstall the game that it came with.

That Starforce DOESN'T interfere with other programs LEGALLY purchased and installed, that had legal uses (such as NERO CD burner)

That Starforce DOESN'T cause system instability if you attempt to remove the drivers manually, and hasn't made it easy to find an uninstallation program.

Well, can you say that? No you can't.

Therefore I will not purchase Chaos League. And it's a sad thing too, having played Blood Bowl for years (both PC and board version) I was looking forward to this game.

We don't have anything personal against the creators of Chaos League and other games. But in assuming that your customers are all slavering hordes of pirates, you have insulted our intelligence and integrity.

Just as you will not stand for people taking what it yours and misusing it (copy protection), we will not stand for you deciding (ABOVE and BEYOND the law) what I can or cannot do in my machine (neutering CD burners and installing hidden components that are not removed with the game itself at time of uninstallation

Fair warning: Other people have reported that Starforce has attempted to "dial home" to validate itself or the game. Since there is no mention of it in the EULA, people who arrange to use this program may be in violation of the state of Utah's recently enacted spyware law. I have not verified, so I cannot say if this is in violation or not. But it is something to be remembered.

[Marc Vaughan]

Marc, don't know if you guys are reading this, but care to run this by the folks over on the business side, and see if you can set our nerves at ease (whether your distributors have used this in the past, or if you plan to do so in the future) ? I REALLY don't want to lose out on the SIGames products, but obviously, there's a tempest brewing, and I don't want EHMFE to be my last purchase of your games.
Starforce has been used on SI games only by the Korean distributor in the past, for European and American releases (which I have control over) I haven't used it ... for various reasons, most namely that I don't have much information upon how its protection is implemented and its failure rate (I try and ensure that any copy-protection we utilise is as 'user friendly' as possible (ie. doesn't interfere with other programs etc.) - to be able to be sure of this its essential that I have a reasonable understanding of its implementation).

To put your mind at ease, I currently have no plans to use Starforce on any of our products (although as mentioned if you grey import a Korean version that might have it present as for that territory the local distributor has in the past applied their own preferred protection).

[SirFozzie]

Ok.. That's a weight off my mind, and I'm sorry to make you use up valuable family time on a Sunday Night (UK time) to reassure us.

[Marc Vaughan]

So, yes, if SIGames uses distributors who use this crap, I would probably avoid SIGames altogether in the future.
Sorry to hear that - as I've indicated previously in Asia in the past our distributors have had the rights to apply their preferred protection to our games ... I know that this was Starforce for CM4 and CM03-04 (the only prior game to that distributed in Korea was 01-02 which I don't know the protection system for).

This practice of a local distributor applying protection is fairly common as different countries have different weaknesses and preferences towards protection (in Korea for instance piracy is rife and they go for the heaviest duty stuff available).

The reason I'm reading this thread is to assess peoples feelings towards StarForce and to try and find out about how it works, the brief blurbs I've read on it don't mention any of the items indicated ... hence my intrigue.

If it is doing anything illegal (ie. crippling other software) then suffice to say I'll do my utmost to ensure its not present in any future releases of our games in Korea.

(and yes I did realise that admitting it had been used in the Korean release would have an adverse reaction - unfortunately I've got a naturally honest nature, one of my (many) personality defects which I constantly battle against ;) )

[Marc Vaughan]

Just removed it from my machine (left over from Chaos League). Well... I was on the fence about this game.

If I get it now I will get the pirated copy with the copy protection stripped out.

Please don't pirate CL - apart from the normal moral arguements which everyone knows ... I've spoken occasionally with the chaps making it and they've real plans for its evolution, I've been a big Blood Bowl fan for many years (and love most GW games) and would very much like CL to be successful enough to allow a sequel and some of their planned improvements to be done .... simply put if a game doesn't sell enough then in 99% of cases a sequel won't happen.

[SirFozzie]

Sorry to hear that - as I've indicated previously in Asia in the past our distributors have had the rights to apply their preferred protection to our games ... I know that this was Starforce for CM4 and CM03-04 (the only prior game to that distributed in Korea was 01-02 which I don't know the protection system for).

This practice of a local distributor applying protection is fairly common as different countries have different weaknesses and preferences towards protection (in Korea for instance piracy is rife and they go for the heaviest duty stuff available).

The reason I'm reading this thread is to assess peoples feelings towards StarForce and to try and find out about how it works, the brief blurbs I've read on it don't mention any of the items indicated ... hence my intrigue.

If it is doing anything illegal (ie. crippling other software) then suffice to say I'll do my utmost to ensure its not present in any future releases of our games in Korea.

(and yes I did realise that admitting it had been used in the Korean release would have an adverse reaction - unfortunately I've got a naturally honest nature, one of my (many) personality defects which I constantly battle against ;) )

Your honesty does you and your company credit, Marc. I suggest you head over to the forums at GoneGold (www.gonegold.com) and check out the ongoing thread. I think that should give you a good start on things.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I think that some of the claims fired at StarForce will be shown to be exaggerated. Time will tell, but I doubt it intentionally interferes with other programs like Nero, and I doubt it is Spyware. However, I have several strong objections to it:

1. It installs hidden drivers at your computer's hardware level without asking for permission to do so, and without even telling you that it did so. The hardware level of the computer is mine, and no company has a right to come in there and secretly install a set of hidden drivers that however unintentional or not, has the potential to disrupt my computer's behavior.

2. When the game is uninstalled, the drivers remain behind. A game should leave no traces behind, especially intrusive and potential harmful drivers. If future driver installation creates conflicts with the remaining StarForce drivers, how the hell can the end user know? The average computer user could go months with frustating and unsolvable problems because these remnants are still in the computer and the user has no way to know they are there.

3. The procedure for removing the drivers is ridiculous. Assuming that you ever find them, you cannot manually delete them. They will reappear if you do so. Manually deleting them, which would be most people's natural first reaction, can cause problems with your computer. You have to go download a special program that goes and deletes them. This entire procedure requires so much computer knowledge that it has to leave out the vast majority of computer users that buy the original game.

4. Even if the drivers are not Spyware, or do not hog system resources, or do not interuppt other programs, why should I trust the company that secretly installs stuff on my computer? They can tell me after the fact that they are harmless, but who the hell gave them the right to install the stuff in the first place, and why should I suddenly trust a deceiptful company that breaks into my computer? It's like catching a thief in my house and having them tell me they aren't there to steal anything. If you are going to break into my house, there is no way on earth I am going to trust you when you tell me that you are harmless.

I struggle to find an analogy for the whole situation but it's something like inviting a friend to dinner and then the friend secretly hides electronic gadgets all over your house. My initial reaction is simply one of outrage: who the hell does StarForce think they are that they can come into my computer and install this hidden shit without even having the courtesy to tell me?

Bottom line: Secretly installing hidden and potentially dangerous drivers that don't uninstall upon uninstalling the game is is inexcusably rude, intrusive, and presumptuous. I will never buy a game that uses such protection, and will do everything I can to discourage others from doing so.

[Draft Dodger]

The reason I'm reading this thread is to assess peoples feelings towards StarForce and to try and find out about how it works, the brief blurbs I've read on it don't mention any of the items indicated ... hence my intrigue.

If it is doing anything illegal (ie. crippling other software) then suffice to say I'll do my utmost to ensure its not present in any future releases of our games in Korea.

(and yes I did realise that admitting it had been used in the Korean release would have an adverse reaction - unfortunately I've got a naturally honest nature, one of my (many) personality defects which I constantly battle against ;) )

your honesty is greatly appreciated. the more information your consumers (or, in my case, potential consumers) have, the better. I've always like your honest and straightforward approach in the way you give out info on your company's policies.

[Blackadar]

I think that some of the claims fired at StarForce will be shown to be exaggerated. Time will tell, but I doubt it intentionally interferes with other programs like Nero, and I doubt it is Spyware.

I just want to address this...I really believe that StarForce is designed to disable CD copying software. It did it on my machine and many others.

If you've noticed, StarForce has been put on mainly UK-based companies' software. In Europe, copyright laws are much more stringent. For example, in Germany (and some other EU states), even discussing copying software is illegal. Never mind owning buring/copying software. Even backing up your software in some EU states can be construed as illegal.

Because of this, the disabling of software that's used for "illegal" purposes isn't necessarily illegal in and of itself. At least that's what I understand.

[SirFozzie]

Thanks for letting me know that PRM is protected by this crap.

Pro Rugby Manager no longer has a place on my system.

[Marc Vaughan]

Some comments upon StarForce from the digitaljesters forum which might help clear up a few things here (and also an uninstaller for people who are concerned by things):

http://www.digitaljesters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4468


To clear up some issues people have had with the Starforce protection that is being used for Chaos League and other DJ games, so we have a Starforce employee set the record straight here.

"It's not spyware and it doesn't try to connect to internet. it's just a driver like Macrovision protection has.

It is true that if you uninstall the game, the driver remains because it's 10kb and it's inactive unless a SF protected game is launched. If you uninstall the driver when a client has other SF protected games they would like to play they would then need to reinstall drivers.

The attached ZIP file contains an exe that will remove all SF traces from the user system"

The zip file for the Starforce uninstaller is attached to this email, but do remember that if you uninstall the Starforce driver and then try playing a SF protected game the game will not work and will require you to reinstall the game.

The zip file for the Starforce uninstaller will be made avilable to all on all Digital Jesters game sites that have StarForce copy protection.

[Blackadar]

Some comments upon StarForce from the digitaljesters forum which might help clear up a few things here (and also an uninstaller for people who are concerned by things):

http://www.digitaljesters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4468

Marc, of course they're going to put the best spin on it they can. They make software that use SF protection. That's like trying to get factual information from the Republican (or Democratic) web sites in an election year.

This we know:

- SF is a hidden installation that doesn't uninstall when you uninstall the game
- Versions of SF purposely disables legal CD-copying software - stuff like Nero and Alcohol 120%
- SF screws up Windows if you try to remove it manually


and now, this...

- Certain versions of SF can "call home" and act as spyware - at least this was admitted by one of the developers. Look at the product description:

"The StarForce Protection Shell generates a hash encrypted and condensed "Hardware Code", (amongst other parameters a very unique signature to identify the end users unique PC hardware, system, and software-configuration and its changes). The end user forwards the Serial Number and Hardware Code to the StarForce ProActive Server by either a fully automated and secure Internet connection, or manually via email, phone or fax."

That pretty much proves that it can be made to call home.

Heckvua good thread over at 3D Rage...

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33763491&page=1&pp=30

[mattwakeman]

Just got into this and I have to agree with the general consensus that there is no way that I want any piece of software on my pc which is anything like this. And some of the boys over at the digitaljesters forum really need to learn some manners.

The way to deal with a problem like this (especially one which is self-created) is not to go on some kind of hissy-fit and insult people who have genuine concerns. Chaos League looked like it could have been good but they can wave goodbye to another sale.

[SirFozzie]

Nice to see Digital Jesters unstickied the one with people admitting it was a problem (me Matt and others), and putting up a "FAQ" basically denying everything that's been found out about this piece of crap. Guess they don't want to hear about real issues. Sad.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I have a few questions for someone that knows something about computer hardware and software engineering…

One of the big issues with the StarForce protection is that it installs drivers at the hardware level of your computer. The consensus here is that this is something that should only be done with the user’s consent, and therefore StarForce should not be secretly busting in and installing drivers at this level.

I’m wondering--in general and theoretically--in what ways can such drivers installed at the hardware level of your computer cause problems with your computer?

StarForce says that the drivers are inactive when the game is not running. The obvious implication is that they are harmless to your computer when the game is not running. Is this true? In what ways can an inactive hardware driver unintentionally cause problems with your computer?

Obviously, the StarForce drivers are active when the game is running. I assume this is a different situation now with the potential for driver problems/conflicts. What kind of problems/conflicts could these active copy protection drivers cause with your computer?

(This post has been posted at Gone Gold too.)

[gstelmack]

I have a few questions for someone that knows something about computer hardware and software engineering…

One of the big issues with the StarForce protection is that it installs drivers at the hardware level of your computer. The consensus here is that this is something that should only be done with the user’s consent, and therefore StarForce should not be secretly busting in and installing drivers at this level.

I’m wondering--in general and theoretically--in what ways can such drivers installed at the hardware level of your computer cause problems with your computer?
For one thing, it's about the only way to actually crash an XP or 2000 system (aside from exploitable OS bugs). A common issue with game developers are players complaining that the game "bluescreened" their XP system. In the vast majority of cases, this is actually a video or sound driver issue. In the other cases, the game is sending bad data to the driver, but on XP or 2000 the driver should still not crash, just the game.

Applications don't have direct access to the hardware, drivers do, so they can wreak all kinds of havoc.

StarForce says that the drivers are inactive when the game is not running. The obvious implication is that they are harmless to your computer when the game is not running. Is this true? In what ways can an inactive hardware driver unintentionally cause problems with your computer?
A driver is "inactive" if nothing calls into it, it has no threads running, no resources outstanding, etc. The most likely issue here is if a driver is causing problems while "inactive", it's not truly inactive (for example, they are maintaining a lock on some resource that they should have released). In other words, if the driver has a bug.

Obviously, the StarForce drivers are active when the game is running. I assume this is a different situation now with the potential for driver problems/conflicts. What kind of problems/conflicts could these active copy protection drivers cause with your computer?
Hard to answer without knowing what sorts of resources they are using / working with. The key thing is they have more direct access to hardware, so it is much easier for them to cause stability problems with a bug than would happen with an application. They could also potentially interfere with other drivers installed on the system, causing those drivers to crash/bluescreen/fail.

[Godzilla Blitz]

gstelmack: Thanks so much for taking the time to answer those questions. Very interesting stuff. As they say in Japan, I have become study.

I'm not sure if I understand the situation well enough, but I'm reading a lot of gamers saying that their systems were corrupted and/or their computers started performing poorly after they either: 1)installed a game that used StarForce 3 protection or 2)manually deleted the StarForce drivers (which causes them to reinstall themselves later). I'm wondering, can a driver corrupt XP to the point that even if you remove it, XP will still function poorly enough that you have to reinstall?

Also, I'm confused as to how the StarForce drivers could reinstall themselves after you manually delete them. If you deleted the drivers and deleted the program that used the drivers, where are they then located so that they automatically reinstall? Is that even possible?

[Blackadar]

gstelmack: Thanks so much for taking the time to answer those questions. Very interesting stuff. As they say in Japan, I have become study.

I'm not sure if I understand the situation well enough, but I'm reading a lot of gamers saying that their systems were corrupted and/or their computers started performing poorly after they either: 1)installed a game that used StarForce 3 protection or 2)manually deleted the StarForce drivers (which causes them to reinstall themselves later). I'm wondering, can a driver corrupt XP to the point that even if you remove it, XP will still function poorly enough that you have to reinstall?

Also, I'm confused as to how the StarForce drivers could reinstall themselves after you manually delete them. If you deleted the drivers and deleted the program that used the drivers, where are they then located so that they automatically reinstall? Is that even possible?

1. Yes, driver issues can so thoroughly screw up Windows that a complete reinstall is necessary.

2. Much like a virus, SF doesn't really "delete" when you delete it. It has a check built in somewhere and, upon reboot, will reinsert itself if you try manually deleting it.

[Godzilla Blitz]

1. Yes, driver issues can so thoroughly screw up Windows that a complete reinstall is necessary.

I'm curious as to the details of some of the theoretical possibilities. If the driver's gone, what could it leave behind in XP that could mess the system up?

2. Much like a virus, SF doesn't really "delete" when you delete it. It has a check built in somewhere and, upon reboot, will reinsert itself if you try manually deleting it.

Even if the game that uses StarForce is gone and even if the drivers are manually deleted, the StarForce drivers reinstall, correct? (Blackadar: I don't doubt that this happens, I'm just curious to figure out how it works.) Well, where is the StarForce driver installation program hiding after you've manually deleted the drivers? If it's the game folder's gone, and the drivers don't activate unless the game calls them, what tells the system to reinstall the drivers? Does there have to be a third program hidden at some level in your system that is doing this?

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you don't remove a driver correctly, and XP goes looking for it and doesn't find it, I would guess that it would be unhappy, but if it weren't necessary functionality, it should be able to survive it. If that driver had replaced necessary functionality previously supplied by another driver, it's entirely possible you could wind up in a situation where Windows would not boot.

Edit: What it can leave behind is ini or registry entries that point to it. Depending on functionality, it's possible that instead of deleting these, you would need to point them back at something else. I don't actually have in-depth knowledge of how Windows works with this stuff, others here may be able to give you more details.

[condors]

i am annoyed i have 4 versions of the freaking thing on my pc

[gstelmack]

I'm curious as to the details of some of the theoretical possibilities. If the driver's gone, what could it leave behind in XP that could mess the system up?
If it leaves behind registry entries that tell Windows "on this event, call into my code" but then the code is not there, or points to a bit of code that IS but dependencies aren't there, you can get into a mess.

In other words, if the driver is TRULY gone, then no uninstalling should not mess anything up. But if it leaves even a single trace behind, you can be very screwed up. This is why manually deleting drivers is bad, and why there are so many uninstall utilities targeted at specific drivers.

It used to be really bad in the old days when drivers would REPLACE Windows files, so on an uninstall you'd have the wrong Windows DLL hanging around, but XP is pretty good about not letting that happen in the first place. Worst case now is multiple instances of a DLL and the wrong one getting called.

[Alf]

So I have installed Chaos League Demo and of course have StarForce and can't use Nero to burn Picture CDs of my daughter....

The link posted by Critch does not point directly to StarForce remover. Can someone direct me to the softwarre remover, please.

[Alf]

Dola : needless to say I am pissed !

[SirFozzie]

www.boycottstarforce.com <-- Link to the StarForce Remover right on the page

[Critch]

The link posted by Critch does not point directly to StarForce remover.

Strange, it used to point to the StarForce remover. Looks like they've removed it.

If nobody else can pass you the link, I'll email the file to the address in your profile tonight when I get home. It's a small file.

[Samdari]

I know this is going to sound weird from me, but I hope you don't.

If people just shrug, and pirate the game anyway, that will have validated the "copy-protection gulag" side's opinion.

Just do without, and let the developer know you are not purchasing their game, and why.

I think the thing to do is to send an e-mail to said companies - "I was going to buy your game, but since the retail version illegally disables legal software installed on my system, I am now installing the virus removed version I downloaded for free. Thank you for developing this piece of software. I sincerely regret that your Draconian policies regarding invasion of my private property did not preclude me from rewarding that effort financially."

[gstelmack]

I think the thing to do is to send an e-mail to said companies - "I was going to buy your game, but since the retail version illegally disables legal software installed on my system, I am now installing the virus removed version I downloaded for free. Thank you for developing this piece of software. I sincerely regret that your Draconian policies regarding invasion of my private property did not preclude me from rewarding that effort financially."
These are not mutually exclusive. You could still buy the game, even if running the pirate version. Still send the letter, though.

It's actually a fairly common practice for people to do this so they don't have to hunt for the CD every time they want to play. Of course, verify you actually have the correct version of the game, and not a pre-release Beta or something. If you think all pirate versions are based on the gold version of the game shipping to stores, you might want to dig a little deeper...

[Samdari]

These are not mutually exclusive. You could still buy the game, even if running the pirate version. Still send the letter, though.

It's actually a fairly common practice for people to do this so they don't have to hunt for the CD every time they want to play. Of course, verify you actually have the correct version of the game, and not a pre-release Beta or something. If you think all pirate versions are based on the gold version of the game shipping to stores, you might want to dig a little deeper...

Good point on them not being mutually exclusive, I had not thought of that.

Part of my point in sending such a letter though would be to let the company know that there is a financial disincentive to using such an invasive copy protection scheme, something that would not be there if I purchased the game.

[gstelmack]

Part of my point in sending such a letter though would be to let the company know that there is a financial disincentive to using such an invasive copy protection scheme, something that would not be there if I purchased the game.
Then you send them the letter saying you won't buy it, and you DON'T pirate it. That would be stealing.

[Shkspr]

Thank you for developing this piece of software. I sincerely regret that your Draconian policies regarding invasion of my private property did not preclude me from rewarding that effort financially."

If you chose to download the Starforce-free copy instead of purchasing the game, then their Draconian policies DID preclude you from rewarding their effort financially. :)

[Mr. Wednesday]

In this case, he downloaded the protection-free after already having purchased (making it gray rather than illegal), and now regrets having rewarded them by purchasing.

[Samdari]

Then you send them the letter saying you won't buy it, and you DON'T pirate it. That would be stealing.

I know. I think the point is made more forcefully to say that them using copy protection which illegally disables software has forced me (who is not normally a pirate) to seek pirated version of their games in order to keep control of my system.

Still, I can say that in the letter and not do it, and that would be the moral high ground. You are right, it would be stealing, but somehow, I find myself willing to do everything in my power to financially harm companies which feel they can run roughshod over my rights like that. I could happily run the pirated version of that game and feel I had done nothing wrong, in fact, I would feel like I had contributed to the greater cause of privacy in the digital age.

[Buzzbee]

Still, I can say that in the letter and not do it, and that would be the moral high ground.

He can LIE, and therefore take the moral high ground. The irony is just delicious.


You are right, it would be stealing, but somehow, I find myself willing to do everything in my power to financially harm companies which feel they can run roughshod over my rights like that. I could happily run the pirated version of that game and feel I had done nothing wrong, in fact, I would feel like I had contributed to the greater cause of privacy in the digital age.

What a warped sense of morals you have. Rather than just NOT PURCHASE the game, you want to go out of your way to STEAL something just so you can maintain your privacy. You feel obligated to STEAL something just because you feel they have violated your rights? You act as if it is your RIGHT to have this game. Sorry bud, but simply not buying the game and writing a letter to them telling them WHY you aren't buying the game would be the appropriate course of action.

[forest gump voice]
Momma always said, two wrongs don't make a right.
[/forest gump voice]

[Axxon]

[forest gump voice]
Momma always said, two wrongs don't make a right.
[/forest gump voice]

Mine always added, "but three lefts do."

[gstelmack]

I know. I think the point is made more forcefully to say that them using copy protection which illegally disables software has forced me (who is not normally a pirate) to seek pirated version of their games in order to keep control of my system.No they didn't. You can simply choose not to play the game.

Edit: Just re-read and can see that your statement above does not preclude buying and then getting the pirated version to play, so I guess we're not arguing a point here. But I'll continue with the rest since I like making this point :D

Not really targeted straight at you since this has ventured into hypothetical waters (i.e. you haven't actually pirated anything), but at pirates in general: this justification of pirates that "the company made me do it" is a load of B.S. You are more than welcome to choose to not buy the software and therefore not reward the companies, but this garbage that you have a "right" to the software and if the company does not provide you a legal way to get it then you should take it for free is absolutely ludicrous. Buy it, don't buy it, but in no way can you possibly justify actually using it for no return back to the company.

[wahoomac]

SNIP

Even if the game that uses StarForce is gone and even if the drivers are manually deleted, the StarForce drivers reinstall, correct? (Blackadar: I don't doubt that this happens, I'm just curious to figure out how it works.) Well, where is the StarForce driver installation program hiding after you've manually deleted the drivers? If it's the game folder's gone, and the drivers don't activate unless the game calls them, what tells the system to reinstall the drivers? Does there have to be a third program hidden at some level in your system that is doing this?
This reminds me of a system at work that I had to "fix" because of adware/malware that was running on it. It took me over an hour to remove one file in the Windows directory. The malware was VX2 (a .dll that automatically runs popups on the desktop even though IE isn't even running). Basically, the file was hidden in the Windows/System32 directory, with Hidden, System, Read-Only attributes. Adaware kept finding it after many reboots, and "supposed" removals. What was happening was there was a very well hidden key in the registry that ran the .dll file on startup/shutdown that copied/renamed the hidden VX2 .dll file. I could get rid of the copied file, but not the original because it was "in memory" and couldn't be accessed/deleted/etc. It was even "in memory" in Safe Mode (which I had never seen before). Finally, I had to disable System Restore, and edit the registry in a few places, before I could even get Adaware to help with the problem. Adaware had a Plug-In specificially for VX2 that actually enabled it to run the system scan earlier in the bootup sequence. So I have seen very tenacious programs/files that can't be removed through normal methods (and seem to come back even when supposedly removed). I hate to think that something like this might happen to commercial software (I can definitely see how it works for virii/trojans/etc.)

[Samdari]

but at pirates in general: this justification of pirates that "the company made me do it" is a load of B.S. You are more than welcome to choose to not buy the software and therefore not reward the companies, but this garbage that you have a "right" to the software and if the company does not provide you a legal way to get it then you should take it for free is absolutely ludicrous. Buy it, don't buy it, but in no way can you possibly justify actually using it for no return back to the company.

My point is not to use it without paying for it. I simply feel that this practice of installing more than one bargained for without notifying the user is getting out of control, and requires more drastic action than writing a letter which will get a hearty laugh before being ignored and discarded. I don't feel I have a "right" to any item sold commercially, but I do feel like I have a duty as a consumer who wishes to retain my right to privacy to act aggressively against this sort of behavior.

My stance here is not about what I can get for free (I am lucky enough to be able to afford any game I want, and buy more than I have time to actually play) it is about attempting to punish companies for being willing to engage in this sort of practice.

I look at this the same way as I handle telemarketers (when I have time). I keep them on the phone as long as possible, asking questions, engaging in small talk, etc. Then when they finally get frustrated and insist that I buy, I tell them I never had any intention to buy and hang up. It is doing my part to make the practice of telemarketing as unprofitable as I can. I want to make the practice of institutionalizing malware as unprofitable as I can for the companies willing to do it.

[Daimyo]

So don't buy it and if you want convince other potential customers not to buy it. I don't see how pirating the game adds anything to your message once you've already refused to buy it.

[gstelmack]

So don't buy it and if you want convince other potential customers not to buy it. I don't see how pirating the game adds anything to your message once you've already refused to buy it.
I think the point Samdari is trying to make (my attempt to rephrase so he knows I get it now) is that he wishes he had a better way to get the point across that this goes beyond a bad business decision, but is borderline false advertising / illegal. Enough people need to not buy to get the point across that way.

I think the Internet uproar happening now (barring any FUD that comes through, just keep the facts straight) is the best approach. That's how you get enough people not to buy to make the point felt. Note that Intuit has agreed to switch copy protection methods for next year after the furor caused by their use of C-Dilla this year for TurboTax (which had the same nasty habit of not uninstalling).

[Samdari]

So don't buy it and if you want convince other potential customers not to buy it. I don't see how pirating the game adds anything to your message once you've already refused to buy it.

Because software companies don't appear to regard doing that as "lost sales" where they seem to regard piracy as such.

[Alf]

www.boycottstarforce.com (http://www.boycottstarforce.com/) <-- Link to the StarForce Remover right on the page
Sorry to come back so late. Link does not work, but this one http://www.boycottstarforce.org/ works ;)

[Blackadar]

FYI

Jeff Jones over at GoneGold tested the effects of StarForce on a simple burner as he had noticed some strange events while burning CDs with StarForce on his PC:
--------------------------------------
Ok, here's something interesting. Lately, I've been having a problem with my relatively new Plextor DVD+RW drive. It worked fine for the first few months, but lately, before all this Starforce stuff came up, I started having performance problems from the drive when burning CDR's. Across all applications that I tried, it did the same thing: It would give a strange sequence of flashes on the light on it's front panel, and it would burn much slower than it should be.

Since all this SF stuff came up, it occurred to me to check to see if SF was possibly the culprit, so I did some testing. Frankly, I don't see how *anyone* can argue with these results:

* A few days ago, I had uninstalled SF when all this came up. I hadn't tried any CDR burns since then, so I was wondering if maybe the SF removal cured the problem. Today, I did a burn and it gave no weird light sequences, and burned at full speed.

* To test this, I deliberately put Starforce back on my computer (I imaged the HD first). The weird light sequence returned, and burns slowed back down again.

* I used the cleaner to again remove SF, and ... you guessed it... the problem goes away.

Keep in mind, this is all done in programs completely unrelated to SF and the game that installed it.

700 MB Burns with SF installed:

5 mins 38 seconds
6 mins and 10 seconds

goofy flashing light sequence active in both

Identical burns done after removing SF:


3 mins 32 seconds
3 mins 49 seconds

light sequence normal.

In my book, this is definitive proof that the SF device drivers are screwing with my drive, and it's performance.

[Alf]

Thanks Blackie.