Man arrested in New York.. for Under-Tipping???

[SirFozzie]

I love New York :D

LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. --Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip at a restaurant.

Taveras, 41, faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services after he and his fellow diners argued with Soprano's Italian and American Grill managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large parties.

"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It killed our weekend."

Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant in this resort village Sunday night. He said they weren't completely satisfied with the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or more and did not see notice of it on their menus.

Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was obnoxious.

"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.

Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.

[Hurst2112]

Damn Italians :D

[wade moore]

This sounds funny...

But this could be a huge case I would think.. this is something that I have always had mixed feelings about, but never really questioned the legality of...

[SirFozzie]

There's a Sopranos joke in there.. but I won't go there :D

[WSUCougar]

I remember hearing once (many years ago...long before most of you were born, and...oh, where was I?) that you could "legally" walk out of restaurant without paying for your meal and there was nothing they could do about it. At the time I blew it off as mythical hokum. But for some reason I just remembered it. Anyone know if there's any truth to it?

[Philliesfan980]

I remember hearing once (many years ago...long before most of you were born, and...oh, where was I?) that you could "legally" walk out of restaurant without paying for your meal and there was nothing they could do about it. At the time I blew it off as mythical hokum. But for some reason I just remembered it. Anyone know if there's any truth to it?

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

[Subby]

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.The worst! And he's waited on millions of 'em!

[sovereignstar]

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.
Where does it say anything about the group of people being Italian?

[KWhit]

I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules.
Wow. You're an idiot.

[WSUCougar]

Where does it say anything about the group of people being Italian?
I think what he meant to say was:

Damn Hispanics with names of former Pittsburgh Pirate shortstops! They're the worst!

[Suicane75]

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.


Your implosion begins..............NOW.

[JeeberD]

Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip at a restaurant./b]


Hell Fuckin' Yeah...

[Philliesfan980]

Your implosion begins..............NOW.

Oh please. Stop being so sensitive. I stand by what I said, and I think I've seen enough of a sample size to be considered reliable.

I never said that I hate Italians. I never said that I dislike Italians. All I said was that Italians were the worst group of people to wait on.

*EDIT*

And when I used the word "these" it was referring to "obnoxious" (which the author used in the original story) italians. So incase you didn't understand the statement actually reads.

"Obnoxious Italians are the worst group of people to wait on".

So shove it.

[sovereignstar]

http://www.efc.dcccd.edu/EtCetera/EtCetera91703/scarface.jpg

[WSUCougar]

Say hello to my little friend!

[Suicane75]

Oh please. Stop being so sensitive. I stand by what I said, and I think I've seen enough of a sample size to be considered reliable.

I never said that I hate Italians. I never said that I dislike Italians. All I said was that Italians were the worst group of people to wait on.

*EDIT*

And when I used the word "these" it was referring to "obnoxious" (which the author used in the original story) italians. So incase you didn't understand the statement actually reads.

"Obnoxious Italians are the worst group of people to wait on".

So shove it.

I'm not being sensitive, I could care less how you feel, I just think it's fun to watch you say stupid things.

[WSUCougar]

prej·u·dice (n.)

1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion

[stevew]

http://www.efc.dcccd.edu/EtCetera/EtCetera91703/scarface.jpg


When did Cubans enter this discussion?

[kcchief19]

Wow. I don't know if you have good footing to impune an entire nationality. Plus, I've re-read the story -- where does it say the DINERS were Italian? Sounds like you're making a rush to judgement there.

I say good for them. Some servers are fine and provide excellent service regardless, but I've been in too many situations where the server realizes there is a fixed tip and blows us off. If the service was lousy, expect a lousy tip.

When we were in Colorado I read about a dispute there because a growing number of restaurants are charging servers a fee for tips left on credit cards -- for example, if the credit card processing fee is 5 percent, the restaurant is holding 5 percent back from the servers. It's apparently against the law, but apparently is poorly enforced and the restaurants have been doing without informing the servers, so many of them didn't even know it was happening.

[sovereignstar]

When did Cubans enter this discussion?
shhh

[Philliesfan980]

Blah, this isn't worth arguing over. I retract all comments.

[Butter]

Humberto is the #2 Italian name overall.

#1, you ask?

You guessed it: Eli.

[Subby]

I totally think the 1000+ Italians you waited on is a significant sample size.

When someone pipes up and tries to say that is less than one-tenth of one percent of all Italians, you tell them to take their fancy math and shove it!!!

[sovereignstar]

Humberto is the #2 Italian name overall.

#1, you ask?

You guessed it: Eli.
Entering shaky ground. Taveras is a very popular Dominican last name.

[Philliesfan980]

I totally think the 1000+ Italians you waited on is a significant sample size.

When someone pipes up and tries to say that is less than one-tenth of one percent of all Italians, you tell them to take their fancy math and shove it!!!


Haha. Point taken. I should just refrain from posting in "Tipping" related threads. Just feel very strongly about various issues with it.

[SunDancer]

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

Agree, but you cannot chase someone outside unless your 110% they are the people who ate, and they did not pay. If your wrong, you could face a lawsuit.

[Subby]

Haha. Point taken. I should just refrain from posting in "Tipping" related threads. Just feel very strongly about various issues with it.Hehehe...just giving you a hard time...I feel just as strongly about Maryland drivers. ;)

[JeeberD]

Agree, but you cannot chase someone outside unless your 110% they are the people who ate, and they did not pay. If your wrong, you could face a lawsuit.

Or you could wind up getting run over... :(

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/6341546.htm

At my work you can get fired for going outside after a guest who is trying to walk their check...

[sachmo71]

I was told by many a manager that gratuities for large parties are NOT legally binding. I don't know if this is actually a law in Texas, or if the manager just wanted to get out of having to deal with a customer, but I didn't press it.

I did see a situation where some people tried to leave our resturant without paying because the food was bad, but the manager wouldn't let them. The cops were called, and they made the people pay the bill for the food, not the grat. They said they couldn't make them pay the tip.

[sachmo71]

Or you could wind up getting run over... :(

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/6341546.htm

At my work you can get fired for going outside after a guest who is trying to walk their check...

That was such a horrible story. :(

[Suicane75]

Man, I was a waiter at a restaurant this one time when Jennifer Love Hewit and Sigourny Weaver tried to pull that crap. I was gonna call the cops so they just decided to take me back to their hotel room and make it up to me. Good times.

[JeeberD]

I was told by many a manager that gratuities for large parties are NOT legally binding.

I once saw a large party demand that the grat be taken off of their check (not my table, thank god) and management did it. I'm not sure if it's because they were legally obliged to remove it or if because at the OG management always does whatever the guest wants. Having a guest call corporate and complain about a manager is an easy way for that manager to get fired in the Darden restaurants...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Having a guest call corporate and complain about a manager is an easy way for that manager to get fired in the Darden restaurants...

Good to know, I'm filing that little tidbit away in my memory bank in case I ever need it.

[stevew]

I also did not think that the grat was binding if you got bad service. This seems to be shady.

[Desnudo]

Any half decent restaurant will go out of their way to accomodate a reasonable complaint.

[WSUCougar]

Man, I was a waiter at a restaurant this one time when Jennifer Love Hewit and Sigourny Weaver tried to pull that crap. I was gonna call the cops so they just decided to take me back to their hotel room and make it up to me. Good times.
Sigourney Weaver?

[sterlingice]

I have a friend who won't eat anywhere with a gratuity. If we have more than 5 people at a place with a gratuity, we'll eat at 2 different tables. It's weird because he works two jobs in food service and I just didn't understand why he didn't like it. His premise being that the guaranteed tips don't provide any incentive to provide good service and he's seen a ton of co-workers who don't give a crap because their tip is guaranteed. So he gets pissed that he has to work his ass off to make maybe 10% while they can screw around and get 15% automatically.

I was always under the impression that the restaurant gets the gratuity but I guess not.

SI

[sachmo71]

The server always got the grat in all of my jobs.

In my mind, if the resturant is going to get an extra charge from the guest, it should be a "service charge" and be calculated completely seperate from the "auto-grat".

The purpose of grats in all of my establishments was to ensure that the server was compensated for losing possibly his whole section of tables to one party. It's supposed to make it easier for the guest, also.

Again, that's not based on any legal fact, just my experience.


sterlingice, I also don't like getting gratted. I guess it's because I would always grat tables that I thought would tip me poorly, or was hoping for the double grat. :(

[Desnudo]

I like the auto-charge for large parties. Otherwise it's the "We're short $50 because some people can't do remedial math situation."

[General Mike]

I like the auto-charge for large parties. Otherwise it's the "We're short $50 because some people can't do remedial math situation."

The places I've gone where they've had auto tipping always put the mandatory tip on the bill. So did those people, just not leave the total they were supposed to?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I was always under the impression that the restaurant gets the gratuity but I guess not. Not at all. I'm not exactly sure how they are disbursed, but there are some serious financial implications to the gratuity-eligible employees:
* Lower minimum wage
* IRS taxes which I believe assume a fixed gratuity percentage rather than counting actual amounts

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but the tips are an essential part of their income.

[stevew]

One thing to consider is that the server does have a tax liability for your check. If your bill is like 100 bucks, and you dont tip, they are responsible for paying taxes on 12% of that, so roughly they would lose 2 bucks or so by waiting on you. Not a whole lot, but it does add up. But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.

[Mr. Wednesday]

One thing to consider is that the server does have a tax liability for your check. If your bill is like 100 bucks, and you dont tip, they are responsible for paying taxes on 12% of that, so roughly they would lose 2 bucks or so by waiting on you. Not a whole lot, but it does add up. But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.I thought the tax liability was only 8%? Did it go up, or was I just misinformed in the first place?

[JeeberD]

But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.

What, me not report all my tips? Never...

[stevew]

I thought the tax liability was only 8%? Did it go up, or was I just misinformed in the first place?
It may be 8, i just know the last place I worked was 12, so maybe im a bit off.

[stevew]

I wonder if the guy said "Learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise," before he stiffed his waitress.

[WSUCougar]

What, me not report all my tips? Never...
Mr. Jeeber, the IRS is on line 2.

:D

[RendeR]

Based on my own experience with a large group of persons (22 of us) going to a decent restaraunt (25 bucks per entree) I have to state that no matter how emphatically a manager or server tries to tell you the auto-tip is required , it is NOT. Gratuities are not binding as part of the bill. if you recieve quality service the establishment expects you to offer at least 15-18 percent as a thanks to the server for handling your group.

My experience was that our servers basicvally ignored us, brought refills and took further orders for appetizers and mixed drinks only when we literally grabbed them to get their attention. When we were ready to pay my friend took the check and asked immediately for the manager, when he arrived my friend demanded (a bit too angrily) to have it removed, or at least reduced to 10 percent due to the piss poor service.

This of course was denied by the manager who immediately started pointing at the notice on the menu. Another of our party pipped in that that is not a legally binding issue, and he'd have his wife (a laywer) contact him to verify it if he cared to walk to the store phone with him.

The Manager took a huge deep breath (literally) and removed the entire tip and thanked us for the patronage.

We actually asked the guy's wife afterward and she said its true, they can try and force it out of you, but as of that time (1992) there was no law on the books that made such notations on menus or otherwise legally binding, you are not required to tip.

Or weren't 12 years go. I just realized how old I am...*sigh*

anyone got solid evidence of a change in this anywhere?

[RendeR]

Mr. Jeeber, the IRS is on line 2.

:D


Fuck the IRS

[QuikSand]

These stories of restaurant managers ceding to complaints and wiping away the built-in tip don't necessarily prove that the law is on your side. It's certainly possible that they are simply acting with good business sense -- generally it's better to let a group of people leave feeling like someone looked out for them, rather than feeling like they got screwed by everyone involved.

I don't claim to have any particular knowledge about where this falls legally, but it seems to me there is a contractual relationship (or something very close to it) between a patron who looks at a menu and orders things, and the restaurant that provides the menu and then responds to the requests. It might not fit the traditional "offer, acceptance, consideration" model perfectly, but there certainly seems to be an offer (the menu and its contents) and acceptance (placing an order implicitly says you agree to the terms therein)... and it's the lack of actual consideration that is the point here, I reckon. If the menu (or the server) makes it clear that the order will include a certain tip, and the party accepts that and orders -- it sounds like there's en enforcable agreement there, to me.

But I'm told you're always on thin ice without all three legs of contract law -- so this could be completely wrong.

[ScottVib]

I remember hearing once (many years ago...long before most of you were born, and...oh, where was I?) that you could "legally" walk out of restaurant without paying for your meal and there was nothing they could do about it. At the time I blew it off as mythical hokum. But for some reason I just remembered it. Anyone know if there's any truth to it?
Just tell them your leaving a very big "negative" tip. (-100%) and it's all good. :p

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well somebody else can take a crack at finding an answer, I'm stumped.
I'm usually a good Googler, a darned good Googler IMO, but most of what I can find are various cruiseship bulletin boards bitching about the increased frequency of auto-tipping & the denizens of those boards flaming each other.

Talk about making me not ever wanna take a cruise -- sheesh, those people make me look like Will Rogers.

[sachmo71]

I sent an email to my brother, who is a lawyer. I'm sure he'll tell me he doesn't know, but I tried.

[sachmo71]

Dola...

I asked him about the specific case in the article, not about auto-grats in general. Here is his response:


My guess is that it would be a legal charge - a surcharge on the food which may be subject to negotiation but which you are obligated to pay.


I'm still not sure if you have to pay a "grat" but a "surcharge" is probably legally binding, maybe that's the difference. It's not clear in the article.

[sabotai]

Well somebody else can take a crack at finding an answer, I'm stumped.
I'm usually a good Googler, a darned good Googler IMO, but most of what I can find are various cruiseship bulletin boards bitching about the increased frequency of auto-tipping & the denizens of those boards flaming each other.

Talk about making me not ever wanna take a cruise -- sheesh, those people make me look like Will Rogers.

My Google is more powerful than yours. :D

This might be it:
hxxp://www.labor.state.ny.us/business_ny/unemployment_insurance/uiemplyr/reg490.htm#490x7

I don't think it is though. It seems to be a law concearn employer and employee, rather than business and patron.

[stevew]

Managed to grab this off of a site. It was all in caps

Tipping movers
Q: LOTS OF RESTAURANT MENUS STATE THERE'S A FIXED PERCENTAGE GRATITUTY FOR LARGE PARTIES.

I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT GRATUITY WAS SUPPOSE TO BE A GIFT TO THE SERVER BASED ON SERVICE AND I WANT TO KNOW IF IT'S LEGAL FOR A RESTAURANT TO AUTOMATICALLY ADD GRATUITY TO A BILL?

A: WE CALLED THE NATIONAL RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION FOR YOUR ANSWER. AND IT SAYS, GENERALLY, THE AUTOMATICALLY ADDING A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE FOR GRATUITY FOR LARGE GROUPS ENSURES THAT THE WAITER WILL RECEIVE THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF COMPENSATION FOR THE EXTRA WORK INVOLVED IN SERVING THAT TABLE.

LEGALLY, THAT MONEY IS NOT CONSIDER A TIP BUT INSTEAD A SERVICE CHARGE THAT'S INCORPORATED INTO THE RESTAURANT'S GROSS SALES WHICH IT PAYS TAXES ON. THE ASSOCIATION SAYS IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE AUTOMATIC ADDITION OF THIS FIXED GRATUITY TO YOUR BILL, ASK THE SPEAK TO THE MANAGER TO WORK OUT THE DETAILS.

[digamma]

These stories of restaurant managers ceding to complaints and wiping away the built-in tip don't necessarily prove that the law is on your side. It's certainly possible that they are simply acting with good business sense -- generally it's better to let a group of people leave feeling like someone looked out for them, rather than feeling like they got screwed by everyone involved.

I don't claim to have any particular knowledge about where this falls legally, but it seems to me there is a contractual relationship (or something very close to it) between a patron who looks at a menu and orders things, and the restaurant that provides the menu and then responds to the requests. It might not fit the traditional "offer, acceptance, consideration" model perfectly, but there certainly seems to be an offer (the menu and its contents) and acceptance (placing an order implicitly says you agree to the terms therein)... and it's the lack of actual consideration that is the point here, I reckon. If the menu (or the server) makes it clear that the order will include a certain tip, and the party accepts that and orders -- it sounds like there's en enforcable agreement there, to me.

But I'm told you're always on thin ice without all three legs of contract law -- so this could be completely wrong.
While I am a lawyer, I don't have actual knowledge of any case law on this subject. I think as Quik has described above that a contract has been created. The question is whether the contract has been breached by the below par service. It then becomes a question of what the bargain you created was. Was it simply to have your food brought to you? Did the food have to be hot? Tasty? Did the waiter have to pay you a certain amount of attention? Individually, the answer probably varies for each of us, but I think we could probably create a reasonableness standard, and if the food and service satisfied that reasonable standard, you would be legally obligated to pay the total bill amount, including the additional gratuity.

I also agree with Quik that examples of manager's waiving the gratuity does not speak to where the law falls. By making the accomodation, the manager has, in effect, amended the contract--the fancy legal term is "accord and satisfaction." But the accomodation does not speak to the legality of the initial contract or its ability to bind the parties.

[stevew]

from

hxxp://www.nbc4.com/answerstoaskliz2003/2184046/detail.html

I cant believe how much they expect on a cruise, that is insane.

[Chief Rum]

At my job, we grat parties of eight or more, but it's at the prerogative of the server. I hardly ever do that. I save it for when I know it's needed (groups of teenagers on prom night, for instance). I am very rarely burned on this. I don't slack off on my tables anyway, but not having the grat there probably subconsciously pushes and prods me to stay on top of things.

One of my least favorite things to do is to stand up there in front of a table, and tell a bunch of guests that, essentially, we don't trust them to pay a good tip, so we're adding one on. That's always the way it feels to me when I tell guests about the grat policy, and I hate that. So I just don't say it and don't do it, exchanging the risk of the occasional bad tip for the comfort of not having to make that speech.

I claim all my tips because it's the law! :) Actually, I do it to have a higher listed income for credit purposes. We have to claim 8% of our sales, regardless of what we make and tip out.

My only problem with the diners in that article is that they took out their dissatisfaction with the food on the server. Hey, jackasses, the server didn't make the food, and if they served you well and sociably, and handled your complaint with civility and promptness, you still owe them a quality gratuity.

What the diners should have done was work out something with the manager with respect to the price of their meal, perhaps getting some or all of the food comped because of how bad it was. Most restaurants I have worked at and been to will bend over backwards to make guests happy, so speaking with the manager about bad food will certainly help that situation along.

Incidentally, at my job, I believe it is referred to as a gratuity in our menus, but on our computers, it's called a service charge.

CR

[Samdari]

I cant believe how much they expect on a cruise, that is insane.

Its really not that bad. If you were to go to a gourmet meal every night for a week, and get the service that came with it, you would pay far more than $4.50 per person per day as a tip. (assuming ~$50 total bill per person, that's $7.50-$10/person).

Similarly, if you stayed at a top-notch hotel, and got maid service the caliber of which they provide, you would generally tip the maids more than $3 per day.

Its just that if you do both every night for a week, and then add up what you tipped for the week, you would probably balk at the total. That is what is happening on

In fact, in my experience, the quality of service I have recieved from the staff on cruises has been far above what I recieved for similar services on land. I was not happy the first time I went on one to find out what they expected for tips, but by the end of the cruise, was so happy with the service, I gladly gave more than the recommended (except to the head waiter, whose main job it seems is to stop at every table at some point during the cruise and be seen appearing to work).

[stevew]

Its really not that bad. If you were to go to a gourmet meal every night for a week, and get the service that came with it, you would pay far more than $4.50 per person per day as a tip. (assuming ~$50 total bill per person, that's $7.50-$10/person).

Similarly, if you stayed at a top-notch hotel, and got maid service the caliber of which they provide, you would generally tip the maids more than $3 per day.

Its just that if you do both every night for a week, and then add up what you tipped for the week, you would probably balk at the total. That is what is happening on

In fact, in my experience, the quality of service I have recieved from the staff on cruises has been far above what I recieved for similar services on land. I was not happy the first time I went on one to find out what they expected for tips, but by the end of the cruise, was so happy with the service, I gladly gave more than the recommended (except to the head waiter, whose main job it seems is to stop at every table at some point during the cruise and be seen appearing to work).


I realize that separately you would be paying a crapload of money out in tips if you did the similar things in real life that you did on a cruise, BUT you already paid a bunch of money for the cruise. They should just charge a bit more for the cruise and build it into the price if they expect you to tip in the 200 dollar or more range for a week cruise.

[DanGarion]

Haha. Point taken. I should just refrain from posting in "Tipping" related threads. Just feel very strongly about various issues with it.


So what you are trying to say is... Regardless of the quality of the service people should be forced to tip?

WTF.

[DanGarion]

Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&-'tü-&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ities
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : TIP

Main Entry: tip
Function: noun
: a gift or a sum of money tendered for a service performed or anticipated

I think the definition of the word clearly states what a Tip or Gratuity is.

[Suicane75]

So what you are trying to say is... Regardless of the quality of the service people should be forced to tip?

WTF.

Only those pesky Italians.

[Draft Dodger]

When did Cubans enter this discussion?

when did Al Pacino become Cuban?
Personally, I've always thought he was kind of like Barry Sanders.

[stevew]

when did Al Pacino become Cuban?
Personally, I've always thought he was kind of like Barry Sanders.

Tony Montana is cuban.

[Draft Dodger]

Tony Montana is cuban.

and Draft Dodger is sarcastic

[SoxWin]

I claim all my tips because it's the law! :)

Waited tables and delivered pizza after high school and all through college. Never declared a dime of tips on my taxes. Now I'm an accountant with a mortgage, different strokes I guess. :)

[Franklinnoble]

I find the notion of a mandatory "gratuity" a little unsettling, and I wouldn't patronize a place that enforced such a policy.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole reason why waiters aren't simply paid a decent wage and instead work for tips is to give them an incentive to provide good service, and, in exchange, provide the customer an opportunity to reward that service appropriately, as they see fit.

Sometimes waiters are gonna get stiffed, and that sucks, but I'm typically a very generous tipper - especially if I get good service. If I get lousy service, then I'm going to hold back the tip a bit. That's just how it works.

[Draft Dodger]

Sometimes waiters are gonna get stiffed, and that sucks, but I'm typically a very generous tipper - especially if I get good service. If I get lousy service, then I'm going to hold back the tip a bit. That's just how it works.

me too - in fact, just this weekend, I left a couple strippers a $900 tip. wasn't my money, though, so it didn't bother me too much.

[Franklinnoble]

me too - in fact, just this weekend, I left a couple strippers a $900 tip. wasn't my money, though, so it didn't bother me too much.
Money well spent.

I'm glad my 900 bucks is getting so much mileage. :D

[Jon]

Here's an update on our tipper:

hxxp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040915/ap_on_fe_st/too_small_tip&e=3


Charges Dropped Against Bad Tipper

Wed Sep 15,12:25 PM ET Add Strange News - AP to My Yahoo!



LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. - Charges have been dropped against a man arrested in a restaurant for not leaving a big enough tip.



After researching the case against Humberto Taveras, authorities said Monday that he cannot be forced to pay a gratuity.


Taveras, 41, was charged Sept. 5 with misdemeanor theft of services after he and fellow diners argued with managers at Soprano's Italian and American Grill over a required 18 percent tip for large parties.


Taveras had said he was not completely satisfied with the restaurant's food and left a tip of less than 10 percent.


"I'm glad someone came to their senses up there," said Taveras, who faced up to a year in jail. "Now I can tell my kids, 'Daddy's not a crook.'"


Warren County District Attorney Kate Hogan said if the 18 percent gratuity had been called a surcharge or service charge, Taveras would have been legally obligated to pay it.


Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said he did not pursue charges because of the money but because Taveras' group was obnoxious. "We did what we thought was right," he said.

[mckerney]

At my work you can get fired for going outside after a guest who is trying to walk their check...

Twice this summer I had to go out of the store after people who were trying to steal.

[damnMikeBrown]

I said I'd be right back!

[cuervo72]

I totally think the 1000+ Italians you waited on is a significant sample size.

When someone pipes up and tries to say that is less than one-tenth of one percent of all Italians, you tell them to take their fancy math and shove it!!!

Well, I don't know about obnoxious, but my grandfather is cheap, my dad is cheap, and I'm pretty cheap too. Even if I'm watered down. We can add that to the sample size.

(and yes, some of the familial roots were in South Philly)

[Anthony]

in response to what QS had stated, about the contract that is made once you order - under that scenario i would think, like digamma said, that the contract the server/restaurant undergoes is a certain level of service above and beyond just slopping your food on a plate and throwing it on the table.

if the gratuity is a gift for the server having sufficiently upheld their end of the contract (good service), then it should be subject to negotiation once that contract is breached on their part (poor service).

poor service is not part of the contract.

[JeeberD]

The dickcheese that got arrested wasn't unhappy with his service, he was unhappy with the food. There's a difference...

[rkmsuf]

The dickcheese that got arrested wasn't unhappy with his service, he was unhappy with the food. There's a difference...

What difference does it make?

"Even though this food tastes like monkey turd you brought it out real fast. Here's a 30% tip. Thanks for the diarrea."

[WSUCougar]

Tony Montana is cuban.
But Joe Montana is Irish.

[digamma]

Here's an update on our tipper:

hxxp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040915/ap_on_fe_st/too_small_tip&e=3


Charges Dropped Against Bad Tipper

Wed Sep 15,12:25 PM ET Add Strange News - AP to My Yahoo!



LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. - Charges have been dropped against a man arrested in a restaurant for not leaving a big enough tip.



After researching the case against Humberto Taveras, authorities said Monday that he cannot be forced to pay a gratuity.


Taveras, 41, was charged Sept. 5 with misdemeanor theft of services after he and fellow diners argued with managers at Soprano's Italian and American Grill over a required 18 percent tip for large parties.


Taveras had said he was not completely satisfied with the restaurant's food and left a tip of less than 10 percent.


"I'm glad someone came to their senses up there," said Taveras, who faced up to a year in jail. "Now I can tell my kids, 'Daddy's not a crook.'"


Warren County District Attorney Kate Hogan said if the 18 percent gratuity had been called a surcharge or service charge, Taveras would have been legally obligated to pay it.


Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said he did not pursue charges because of the money but because Taveras' group was obnoxious. "We did what we thought was right," he said.
Not to state the obvious, but there is a difference between the issue of whether the non-tipper can be criminally prosecuted and whether the restaurant could sue, win and legally enforce payment of the bad debt. My brief discussion with QS (and later supplemented by HA) hit on the second point, not the first. Of course, it would have to be a pretty big tip for a restaurant to sue to try to collect it.

[Chief Rum]

What difference does it make?

"Even though this food tastes like monkey turd you brought it out real fast. Here's a 30% tip. Thanks for the diarrea."

You don't see the difference between quality service and quality food? You do realize that entirely different parts of the restaurant are involved in producing each, right? And you do know that service charges/tips/gratuities only go to one part of that restaurant (here's a hint--it ain't going to the chef)?

CR

[stevew]

You don't see the difference between quality service and quality food? You do realize that entirely different parts of the restaurant are involved in producing each, right? And you do know that service charges/tips/gratuities only go to one part of that restaurant (here's a hint--it ain't going to the chef)?

CR

Ah, if the food was shit, the server shouldnt have taken it out to the table. Get the manager, have him make the cooks remake it, and comp them a drink or two while they wait. When it comes down to it, if you get shit at your table, it is the servers fault.

[Tekneek]

Ah, if the food was shit, the server shouldnt have taken it out to the table. Get the manager, have him make the cooks remake it, and comp them a drink or two while they wait. When it comes down to it, if you get shit at your table, it is the servers fault.

Back in my non-vegetarian days, I sent a steak back twice, then they cooked a new one, and still kept screwing it up. It seems they could not cook it well. It was either medium or crispy, neither of which was what I ordered or what I normally got there. The server took my meal and our appetizer off of the check to try and make it up to us without us even asking for it.

[Chief Rum]

Ah, if the food was shit, the server shouldnt have taken it out to the table. Get the manager, have him make the cooks remake it, and comp them a drink or two while they wait. When it comes down to it, if you get shit at your table, it is the servers fault.

Yes, and it's that sort of thinking that gives complaining customers a bad name. It's not so hard to see where blame lies and associate responsibility appropriately.

If the server is in any way derelict in his service, such as showing a lack of concern for your complaints or arguing with you about it or not properly bringing in a manager when clearly needed, then that is certainly grounds for tipping him less or even not at all.

If, however, the server seems to be putting up courteous and friendly service, is responding promptly to your complaints, is apologetic for the problems and takes whatever steps are necessary to make your experience a good one, does that server not deserve at least a regular tip (if not a good one)? Even if the food keeps coming out bad or the manager is a dick, why do you think it's then fair to take it out on the server, who did his or her best to take care of your problems, to the extent of their abilities (they can't cook the food, they can't comp your meal or drinks, they can't do anything if the manager is a dick for some reason)?

If the food is shit, the server shouldn't have taken it to the table? Clearly, you have never worked in a restaurant, because I assure you, it's not always so obvious when "the food is shit". Cold fries look the same as warm fries, and we're not allowed to touch them to find out. We can't know in advance all of a guest's tendencies, whether he might think our "rare" steak is actually too undercooked, or if our "hot coffee" is too cold for him. We can only do this through trial and error, seeking to match the guest's needs where we can.

As for getting the manager and having the cooks recook it, well...duh! That's a part of the server's job, and if he doesn't do that, of course he doesn't deserve a good tip. I'm talking about when a server does everything reasonably in his power to please an irate guest, including referring that which he can't take care of to those who can.

Is it so hard to assign blame where it should properly go? Bad food = kitchen. Bad service = server. You get bad service, tip the server poorly. You get bad food, speak to the manager about getting comped and gettign the problem taken care of, and based on how it is handled, determine if in the future you will continue to be a patron there--but leave a decent tip for the conscientious server who went out of his way to try and make your experience a positive one.

CR

[rkmsuf]

You don't see the difference between quality service and quality food? You do realize that entirely different parts of the restaurant are involved in producing each, right? And you do know that service charges/tips/gratuities only go to one part of that restaurant (here's a hint--it ain't going to the chef)?

CR

As a customer they are intimately intertwined. If the food sucks tough luck for the whole operation. I'm tipping because I enjoyed the experience. I would think the food is a pretty important part of that experience.

[JeeberD]

You don't see the difference between quality service and quality food? You do realize that entirely different parts of the restaurant are involved in producing each, right? And you do know that service charges/tips/gratuities only go to one part of that restaurant (here's a hint--it ain't going to the chef)?

CR

Thanks, CR. I somehow missed Smurfy's response...