The Presidential Debate

[kingfc22]

It's about to start in a couple of minutes.

Discuss.

[Mac Howard]

Through the miracles of modern technology I'm watching it here in Australia :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let's see here ... my son has to do his 15-minutes-of-reading homework in a few minutes & then I suspect I'll probably go to bed at the same time he does tonight, since we're off to WDW for vacation starting tomorrow afternoon & that's a pretty tiring week by the time we're done, I figure I better get some sleep while I can.

But we'll be reading Duck For President, so that oughta count for something.

[Chubby]

what happened to the "not speaking, not on camera" rule? Bush was just on camera as Kerry was talking...

[Peregrine]

Chubby, the networks didn't agree to that rule.

[mauchow]

Of course the first thing he says is about September 11th. How many speeches has he not started off with something like that?

[Chubby]

Chubby, the networks didn't agree to that rule.
Ahh, that's why.

Bush not answering the question. Exxxxxxxxxxcellent.

[Chubby]

Did you know that 10 million citizens of Afganistan have registered to vote? Too bad it still has nothing to do with the "Will the election of Kerry lead to another terrorist attack" question.

[mauchow]

Kerry WILL kill the terrorists. LOL that sounded bad.

[Chubby]

Kerry WILL kill the terrorists. LOL that sounded bad.
Yeah, that wasn't good but I like him hammering on how we have put Osama and Afghanistan on the back burner for Iraq.

[Ben E Lou]

Kerry walked right into that one.

[Peregrine]

I think Kerry has already mentioned Osama Bin Laden more in this debate than he was mentioned in the whole Republican convention.

[Chubby]

pre-september 10th?

[Neuqua]

It was pretty funny to see W. all of a sudden talk as fast as he can as soon as he saw the red light on.

[Chubby]

we're facing a............a...................group of folks :D

[Chubby]

"of course we're after Saddam Hussein... uh Osama Bin Laden"

nice :D

[Peregrine]

well to be fair Kerry made the same mistake a few minutes before

[Buccaneer]

Can someone else provide the commentary? Chubby sucks.

[Ben E Lou]

ROFLMBAO!!!!! Kerry's slamming Bush for the troops not having enough body armor. Here we gooooo......

[Chubby]

Bush - Kerry is a flipflopper. We should only say hearts and flowers statements to our troops and allies we don't have.

[GoldenEagle]

So Kerry is saying we need more troops and more spending in Iraq?

[Neuqua]

Anyone know exactly what these two are writing down on their little notepads?

[Ben E Lou]

So Kerry is saying we need more troops and more spending in Iraq?Well, yeah.

[Chubby]

So Kerry is saying we need more troops and more spending in Iraq?
He's saying the money we have spent should have been spent more wisely I believe.

[GoldenEagle]

You are getting Chubby's liberal twist on everything.

[GoldenEagle]

He's saying the money we have spent should have been spent more wisely I believe.
I heard him say we did not have enough troops in Iraq.

[Chubby]

You are getting Chubby's liberal twist on everything.
Someone's got to off-set the vast conservative twist on this board :p

[sabotai]

So far I think Kerry is doing a good job of doing to Bush what Bush did to Dore during their debates. He keeps focusing on how we went after Saddam before we got Osama. And I give credit to Bush, because he used a word I didn't know the meaning to. :)

[Chubby]

I heard him say we did not have enough troops in Iraq.
he said there wasn't enough troops in afghanistan and too many in Iraq.

[Chubby]

"Stay on the offense"????????? uuuuuuuuuuuuuughhhhhhhhh. I think that right there is a reason why some people won't vote for him. Bad choice of words IMO.

[cthomer5000]

Kerry is clearly a better 'thinking on his feet' speaker. Bush has stumbled a few times.

[Ben E Lou]

he said there wasn't enough troops in afghanistan and too many in Iraq.Are you sure about that? I'd have to see the transcripts to be 100% certain, but I sure thought he was talking about under-funded troops in Iraq.

[Chubby]

Kerry is clearly a better 'thinking on his feet' speaker. Bush has stumbled a few times.
That's accurate.

[sabotai]

Bush looks pissed off :)

[JeffNights]

I like the slam "he outsourced that job too"


So far, its Kerry up a by a touchdown.

lol

[Neuqua]

Bush seems to be getting a bit aggressive.

[sabotai]

Are you sure about that? I'd have to see the transcripts to be 100% certain, but I sure thought he was talking about under-funded troops in Iraq.

FWIW, I thought he was talking about Afghanistan.

[Celeval]

Lehrer: "...when will troops come home?"
Bush: "Let me... uh... let me... uh..." (Let me not answer this question)

[timmynausea]

"Stay on the offense"????????? uuuuuuuuuuuuuughhhhhhhhh. I think that right there is a reason why some people won't vote for him. Bad choice of words IMO.
Yeah that seemed pretty horrible to me, too.

[Chubby]

Are you sure about that? I'd have to see the transcripts to be 100% certain, but I sure thought he was talking about under-funded troops in Iraq.

How I took it is that he said troops were diverted to Iraq when they were needed in Afghanistan. The whole "body armor" thing was more about money not being spent wisely than needing more money (also about not being prepared) but I think it's very open to interpretation.

[Ironhead]

How many times has Bush mentioned that he has "good folks working hard" for us?

[Chubby]

Not taking political slants into account, I think Kerry had an advantage coming in, in that he is a better speaker on his feet as cthomer pointed out. It has nothing to do with what they speak about but in their delivery.

[sabotai]

I think both are trying too hard to land that one-liner that the news will repeatedly play.

[Chubby]

Kerry gets a laugh about changing the rules while Bush goes on about Kerry talking negative about the war.

[Peregrine]

Yeah Sabotai both are using that rebuttal period to land those sound-bite jabs. We'll see how that works out.

[Ben E Lou]

I think both are trying too hard to land that one-liner that the news will repeatedly play.Most definitely.

[Chubby]

The one liner has proved very profitable in previous debates so you can't blame either for trying.

[Ben E Lou]

This is a battle of philosophies, ultimately.

[Chubby]

Point to Bush for the Blair comment but Poland???? lol

[GoldenEagle]

Everything is Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. That is all Kerry has on Bush. Bush is doing a pretty good job of turning it around on him.

[Ben E Lou]

What I mean specifically by that comment is that Kerry's "we should get more help" will play well with those who agree with that, while Bush's, "you're for us or against us" small coalition plays well with the "screw France" thinkers. I doubt this particular section of the debate is going to sway anyone.

[Young Drachma]

He keeps mentioning Poland. People in the audience laughed at Poland.

[Peregrine]

Does anyone know, Lehrer said that the umbrella topic for this is national security and Iraq, will the other debates have other umbrella topics?

[Ben E Lou]

Point to Bush for the Blair comment but Poland???? lolYeah, he shouldn't have singled Poland out. :p

[Celeval]

Did Bush just say the reason we're still fighting is because we won so quickly?

[Chubby]

Everything is Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. That is all Kerry has on Bush. Bush is doing a pretty good job of turning it around on him.
(keep in mind the limited focus of this debate)

What has Bush talked about? Kerry has hammered him on Afghanistan and homeland security too. Bush keeps bringing the topic back to Iraq so Kerry has to respond as such.


Realistic and optimistic at the same time? Now we're on the "we must be positive all the time even if things are getting worse" routine.

[Chubby]

Does anyone know, Lehrer said that the umbrella topic for this is national security and Iraq, will the other debates have other umbrella topics?
Yes, all three have an umbrella topic. I think the last one is the economy which is how Kerry wanted it.

[mauchow]

Did Bush just say the reason we're still fighting is because we won so quickly?

I caught that too. The reason we haven't left is because we achieved victory so quickly. Something like that, stupid.

[sabotai]

Point to Bush for the Blair comment but Poland???? lol

Right there would have been a great moment where Kerry could have tossed a question in there but because of the rules, he can't. Bush mentioned "and now it's 30 nations" or something like that. A great question would have been if Kerry asked "How many of them have troops in Iraq?". But...these rules...

[Young Drachma]

I just started tuning in (yay for internet web cast) and it seems to me that Bush sounds like he's on the defensive. This is the biggest contrast I've seen between two candidates - in their style - in a while. I mean, Dole wasn't affable, but that pre-9/11 world things were different.

[sabotai]

DC, I agree. Bush sounds defensive and agitated.

[Chubby]

Kerry brings up N Korea. Good, there needs to be more of that (the hypocircy in policy regarding countries with WMDs). I'd like him to bring up Saudia Arabia but I know that's asking too much.

[Young Drachma]

Ooh..good question on asking Kerry to answer the question about calling Bush a liar.

[Crapshoot]

I have to admit, Kerry sounds more solid that I usually give him credit for.

[Buccaneer]

"Style". There's that word again.

[EagleFan]

Kerry brings up N Korea. Good, there needs to be more of that (the hypocircy in policy regarding countries with WMDs). I'd like him to bring up Saudia Arabia but I know that's asking too much.


Let me know when North Korea has been mandated by the UN to disarm.

[Chubby]

Kerry gives credit to Reagan? Interesting, point to Kerry going after undecided repubs.

[Crapshoot]

ooh- nice Reagan line.
But nice retort for Bush- Im impressed, with his command of information.

[Chubby]

Let me know when North Korea has been mandated by the UN to disarm.
His point was on Bush's "We can't allow the profileration of WMDs" speech earlier in the debate.



Now we're back to Bush calling Kerry a flipflopper.

"Let me finish" hahaha :D

[Crapshoot]

Let me know when North Korea has been mandated by the UN to disarm.

And we know the long American history of following Un resolutions- along with that billion dollar debt.. :D

[sooner333]

I like Bush's My Opponent just said something amazing.

[HerRealName]

All Bush has is the flip-flop spin?

[Chubby]

When Bush gets off of the "Kerry is a flipflopper" routine, maybe he'd score more points...

[Young Drachma]

I don't think calling Kerry a flip-flopper...as the guy in charge seems kinda silly to me. I mean, you're the winner. Just go up there and be like "we're kicking ass, I'm in control. Vote me."

[sabotai]

Heh, Bush tried to get the one-liner again about the line on Kerry being consistently inconsistent. Too bad he fumbled it.

[gstelmack]

Kerry gets a laugh about changing the rules while Bush goes on about Kerry talking negative about the war.

Yeah, Bush is "changing the rules" by asking for the 1 minute extension Lehrer made a point of explaining was part of the format :rolleyes:

[Celeval]

So after this one:
- Vice-Presidential Debate on Tuesday (wide open?)
- 2nd Debate on Friday the 8th (town hall style)
- 3rd Debate on Wednesday the 13th (economy)

Is that right? What's the topic of the veep debate?

[gstelmack]

Did Bush just say the reason we're still fighting is because we won so quickly?

Yes. Instead of standing and fighting where we could easily destroy them, they faded into the background and we have to destroy them now. What was so hard to understand here?

[Ben E Lou]

Both of 'em are hammering on the messages that their handlers told 'em will play well.

Bush: Kerry is a flip-flopper and can't lead.
Kerry: Bush is a unilateralist. I'll be a coalition builder.

[Young Drachma]

I love how Bush is trying to be like "I understand them kids over there is dying. I wouldn't know, since I've never been to combat. But hey..war is hell." Oh, did I mention we prayed?

Shameless, but it's politics.

[Chubby]

Yeah, Bush is "changing the rules" by asking for the 1 minute extension Lehrer made a point of explaining was part of the format :rolleyes:

Do the majority of viewers know the intricate rules of the debate? Nope, so the line will win points for Kerry in voters minds.

[gstelmack]

DC, I agree. Bush sounds defensive and agitated.

Well, the debate started off with 2 questions about what Kerry thinks Bush is doing wrong. That immediately puts him on the defensive.

To me, Bush seems a bit tired. I mean, the man is fighting a war on terror and is not 100% focused on the debate? I think I can understand that.

[sabotai]

Is that right? What's the topic of the veep debate?

I'm assuming since there'll be just one that it'll basically cover everything (that it can) and not have just one theme to it.

[Chubby]

So after this one:
- Vice-Presidential Debate on Tuesday (wide open?)
- 2nd Debate on Friday the 8th (town hall style)
- 3rd Debate on Wednesday the 13th (economy)

Is that right? What's the topic of the veep debate?
I think it's all encompassing (not sure tho) but I will love to see how Edwards handles himself against the real president...

[Celeval]

Yes. Instead of standing and fighting where we could easily destroy them, they faded into the background and we have to destroy them now. What was so hard to understand here?
I understood the point fine, and agree with the reasoning. Poor choice of words, though.

[gstelmack]

Do the majority of viewers know the intricate rules of the debate? Nope, so the line will win points for Kerry in voters minds.

Which is sad, as Lehrer clearly spelled out the timing rules right up front. The main point here is that Kerry gets in a zinger that was clearly an out-and-out lie about the situation.

[Young Drachma]

Well, the debate started off with 2 questions about what Kerry thinks Bush is doing wrong. That immediately puts him on the defensive.

To me, Bush seems a bit tired. I mean, the man is fighting a war on terror and is not 100% focused on the debate? I think I can understand that.

Yeah, he's fighting all right. :rolleyes:

[Chubby]

Well, the debate started off with 2 questions about what Kerry thinks Bush is doing wrong. That immediately puts him on the defensive.

To me, Bush seems a bit tired. I mean, the man is fighting a war on terror and is not 100% focused on the debate? I think I can understand that.
oh please.

point for "4 words, more of the same" there's the soundbite.

[Buccaneer]

I don't buy the 18% that could be swayed by the deabte. If they are so shallow in thinking rehearsed one-liners and talking points are being presidential, maybe they shouldn't vote?

[Chubby]

5 seconds of deadair for Bush?

[gstelmack]

I understood the point fine, and agree with the reasoning. Poor choice of words, though.

Bush is not good at coming up with the one-liner beyond a handful. Poor initial choice of words, but he did a good job of immediately explaining it.

[sabotai]

So far it feels like Kerry is saying the same in different ways, but Bush is saying the same thing in the same way (ie, he sounds like he's really repeating himself while Kerry doesn't even though underneath he is).

[Chubby]

Kerry - "Important to Israel" boooo minus 2 points.

[Young Drachma]

Speaking of Colin Powell, do you think he'd serve as Sec'y of Defense for Kerry? Like, I can't see Kerry not wanting him somewhere and Powell would probably do it.

[Sharpieman]

Thats the second reference to Israel. What does Iraq have to do with Israel?

[gstelmack]

Well, I'm done watching it. My quick summary (as an admittedly biased Bush observer) is that Kerry is making up things to say without regard to fact (example: his zinger about "changing the rules" when Bush wasn't), while Bush is stating the facts about what he's done, although with not the best wording. I expect more of the same through the next 2.5 debates...

[Chubby]

Speaking of Colin Powell, do you think he'd serve as Sec'y of Defense for Kerry? Like, I can't see Kerry not wanting him somewhere and Powell would probably do it.
I think Kerry would want him but I don't think Powell would do it.


He's waiting for the H Clinton-Powell ticket.

[Celeval]

Which is sad, as Lehrer clearly spelled out the timing rules right up front. The main point here is that Kerry gets in a zinger that was clearly an out-and-out lie about the situation.
I don't think so - based on Lehrer's explanation at the beginning, the additional minute was based on his (Lehrer's) discretion. Bush keeps jumping in rather than waiting on that. Kerry hasn't been - I think that reflects Bush being more on the defensive here - but it comes off better for Kerry than Bush, imho.

[Peregrine]

I think Kerry is keeping Bush on his toes about Iraq, but I'm not sure how much punch his "have a big summit in Iraq" idea has as an alternative plan.

[Buccaneer]

gstelmack, did you expect anything different about these debates than the ones in the past 4 elections?

Sharpie: Israel is the focal point of all Middle East tensions. Always have been, always will be.

[Chubby]

Thats the second reference to Israel. What does Iraq have to do with Israel?
Israel has nothing to do with anything, unless they talk about how terrorists link our backing of Israel to why they attack us.

[sabotai]

The cutaway shots of Bush doesn't make him look good (I wonder if he got the word the networks didn't agree to it) because his reaction shots make him look the way they made Gore look. It almost looks like he's rolling his eyes and smirking.

I think I know what Kerry is writing since his reaction shots all look the same. "KEEP WRITING. DON'T MAKE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. KEEP WRITING. DON'T MAKE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS." :D

[Chubby]

I don't think so - based on Lehrer's explanation at the beginning, the additional minute was based on his (Lehrer's) discretion. Bush keeps jumping in rather than waiting on that. Kerry hasn't been - I think that reflects Bush being more on the defensive here - but it comes off better for Kerry than Bush, imho.
/agreed.

Again, whatever I say, I will never change my opinion reagrdless of how badly it screws things up.

[Noop]

Israel? Pfft....

[Ben E Lou]

Well, I'm done watching it. My quick summary (as an admittedly biased Bush observer) is that Kerry is making up things to say without regard to fact (example: his zinger about "changing the rules" when Bush wasn't), while Bush is stating the facts about what he's done, although with not the best wording. I expect more of the same through the next 2.5 debates...Yup. Ultimately, both of these guys realize that they can get elected if they get enough people to fear the other guy. If either can energize the people--particularly those in "battleground states"--who stay at home on Election Day to the point that they'll show up, they win. Bush is saying, "If this guy gets into office, he'll be a piss-poor leader that the troops won't respect." Kerry is saying, "If this guy stays in office, he'll continue going about it in the wrong way."

[Chubby]

More of the Bush pushing for an extension instead of waiting for it as stipulated...

[Young Drachma]

I think these debates are generally a wash. I just have a hard time believing anything Bush says, its difficult for me. And I'm not Democrat and I'm not a fan of Kerry. It's just hard for me to really listen to Bush and feel like I'm listening to the President most of the time.

I dunno... As for Cheney/Edwards, that's gonna be an interesting debate. Edwards has skills, but I think Cheney will probably just go up there and be like "I'm old and I've been doing this. Go back to Carolina little boy.." Not that I think that's a bad strategy.

[Sharpieman]

gstelmack, did you expect anything different about these debates than the ones in the past 4 elections?

Sharpie: Israel is the focal point of all Middle East tensions. Always have been, always will be.
I know that, but does a secure Iraq mean that Israel be safer?

[Ironhead]

The enemy attacked us? Must have missed those scud missles....

[GoldenEagle]

I love how Bush is trying to be like "I understand them kids over there is dying. I wouldn't know, since I've never been to combat. But hey..war is hell." Oh, did I mention we prayed?

Shameless, but it's politics.
You are saying that you have to be in combat to say war is hell? I have never been in combat but it does not take someone who has to know that war is hell.

[Ben E Lou]

but I think Cheney will probably just go up there and be like "I'm old and I've been doing this. Go back to Carolina little boy.." Not that I think that's a bad strategy.LOL! I definitely have this image of Cheney putting Edwards over his knee and spanking him.

[sabotai]

Nice pick up by Kerry. (I guess it's pretty telling how much these debates will effect me since I'm basically commenting on like a football game. "Bush fumbles the ball and Kerry jumps on it!") :D

[Young Drachma]

Number 800!

Ok...I have nothing to say. 800 over here, number 900 over at OOTP...a record night. (Not really...)

[Chubby]

Number 800!

Ok...I have nothing to say. 800 over here, number 900 over at OOTP...a record night. (Not really...)

pfft when you pass 3000 in this thread call me :D

[amdaily]

The enemy attacked us? Must have missed those scud missles....
Did you catch the 747's hitting the WTC?

[Chubby]

"Of course I know Osama Bin Laden attacked us, I know that" - with a goofy look on his face. lol

[sabotai]

Did you catch the 747's hitting the WTC?

Did you know Saddam Hussain had nothing to do with that?

[Chubby]

Did you catch the 747's hitting the WTC?
Again, that has nothing to do with Iraq.

[Ben E Lou]

Dubya: "It shows a significant difference of opinion."

Yup. That's the bottom line on how all of this is going to play.

[Chubby]

In between questions, catch Bush's facial reactions?

[Senator]

Man, Bush seems frazzled.

[Suicane75]

Kerry is coming on strong at the end.

[Peregrine]

Good point Skydog, I was thinking the same thing.

[Ironhead]

Did you catch the 747's hitting the WTC?

Last I checked, that enemy was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

[Leonidas]

Speaking of Colin Powell, do you think he'd serve as Sec'y of Defense for Kerry? Like, I can't see Kerry not wanting him somewhere and Powell would probably do it.

Unfortunately that is probably reserved for Wesley Clark.

[Young Drachma]

You are saying that you have to be in combat to say war is hell? I have never been in combat but it does not take someone who has to know that war is hell.

No...I'm not saying that. I was just saying I didn't like how he said that, when he knew that Kerry was gonna say "I've been there, done that."

My 801 isn't 9,000...geez. that's a lot of posts.

Why are they wasting this time on discussing something that's been beat around in the media for like 100 times. Look, we're there. Somebody figure out how we're going to get out.

I think I understand Kerry's contrast. But I can't really believe that he can tell us he would've done differently than Bush did, because the threats and things that are happening are far different than the threats we've seen before.

Not that I trust Bush..but just saying. I dunno what else I'd have him say tho..

[Ben E Lou]

In between questions, catch Bush's facial reactions?I'm listening on radio, so I haven't seen them. (Computer is in a room w/o TV.) What are his expressions like?

[Chubby]

Kerry is coming on strong at the end.
He has stumbled this question however.

[Young Drachma]

pfft when you pass 3000 in this thread call me :D

I've been around a long time. I just never posted much. It's quality....not quantity. :p

[Chubby]

I'm listening on radio, so I haven't seen them. (Computer is in a room w/o TV.) What are his expressions like?
He made a "bug eyes I can't believe this" face.

[sabotai]

I'm listening on radio, so I haven't seen them. (Computer is in a room w/o TV.) What are his expressions like?

I said something about it earlier in the thread (It's moving fast. :) ), but it looks like he's smirking, rolling his eyes, etc. Pretty much the equivalent of Gore's sighs (except, obviously, rolling eyes and smirking is inaudible. :) )

[gstelmack]

gstelmack, did you expect anything different about these debates than the ones in the past 4 elections?

Nope. I was only watching because my wife hadn't seen anything of Kerry and wanted to get a feel for him (I said "for" him, get your minds out of the gutter!). I saw what I expected: lots of soundbites for the papers and a lot of not letting facts get in the way of making a good point. In other words, pointless but the masses will eat it up.

She came away with the same opinion of Kerry I've had for a while now: he'll say whatever he thinks people want to hear. I give Bush a lot of credit for stating his goals and following through even when the message is unpopular.

[Chubby]

I've been around a long time. I just never posted much. It's quality....not quantity. :p
I was just teasing anyways.



I think this is the most civilized political thread I have seen to date here.



Why is Bush bringing up the Global court? Do swing voters care?

[Young Drachma]

I'm listening on radio, so I haven't seen them. (Computer is in a room w/o TV.) What are his expressions like?


SkyDog, the NY Times is streaming it online for free. I'm checking it out now on there. Just listening to it, 'cuz I don't care to look at them. But...it's on there if you want to look.

[Suicane75]

He has stumbled this question however.


Bush is doing the same ten fold, he's stumbling and mumbling like Shaq.

[Chubby]

"It's right not to join a court where our people could be prosecuted"????????????

Nice, very nice...

[Peregrine]

Yeah neither really handled that question well.

[Chubby]

Nope. I was only watching because my wife hadn't seen anything of Kerry and wanted to get a feel for him (I said "for" him, get your minds out of the gutter!). I saw what I expected: lots of soundbites for the papers and a lot of not letting facts get in the way of making a good point. In other words, pointless but the masses will eat it up.

She came away with the same opinion of Kerry I've had for a while now: he'll say whatever he thinks people want to hear. I give Bush a lot of credit for stating his goals and following through even when the message is unpopular.
Was this in between the 99% of the time where Bush is ranting about Kerry flipflopping?


Did bush just mangle peninsula?

[Young Drachma]

I was just teasing anyways.



I think this is the most civilized political thread I have seen to date here.



Why is Bush bringing up the Global court? Do swing voters care?

I know you were kidding. :)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Why the HELL would you bring that up?
Yeah, the world should hate us, George. GOOOOD call.

I think that our participating in the ICC would've been nominal anyway. Like, there were all these exceptions to how US people could be tried by the court anyway. It's just a signal that we're playing along.

He can't say peninsula.

[sabotai]

They made a big deal about Gore butting in during 2000. I wonder if the same will be made about Bush doing it now. I just saw Kerry "ask" for a rebuttal (motioning with his hand) but the host didn't see it and he let it go. Bush has been jumping in.

[Chubby]

Bush fumbles again. Lots of dead air = bad, very bad.

[gstelmack]

Last I checked, that enemy was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

Last I checked, the enemy was all over the Middle East. The specific enemy being mentioned (Bin Laden) is actually believed to be across the border in Pakistan.

[Ben E Lou]

"It's right not to join a court where our people could be prosecuted"????????????

Nice, very nice...I think he said, "by foreign judges." at the end of that.

Again, that whole response of thinking will play *very* well with those who think we shouldn't listen to world opinion in making our foreign policy/national security decisions.

[Young Drachma]

Moolahs

I'm gonna make a team and name them that

[Sharpieman]

I'm guessing the second hour will be domestic affairs?

[Buccaneer]

You guys know what the final analysis will be, don't you? 1) Kerry hits a HR as he had to or 2) Kerry didn't hit a HR when he had to.

[Chubby]

I think he said, "by foreign judges." at the end of that.

Again, that whole response of thinking will play *very* well with those who think we shouldn't listen to world opinion in making our foreign policy/national security decisions.
But he's playing to voters who have already decided to vote for him, not sound strategy IMO.

[Sharpieman]

Last I checked, the enemy was all over the Middle East. The specific enemy being mentioned (Bin Laden) is actually believed to be across the border in Pakistan.
The enemy is indeed all over the Middle East and the world, but the enemy wasn't in Iraq BEFORE the war in Iraq.

[SackAttack]

Bush does seem incredibly aggravated. I'm not sure why. I think at this point, his handlers have to be happy for the third debate, since it gives him the opportunity to calm down some.

That said, despite his...aggressiveness, I guess would be the word, I do find myself leaning more towards Bush's message than Kerry's. I mean, c'mon. "gradual weakening?"

Is that how we want to handle the War on Terror? Starve them out, and hope they don't try anything in the meantime?

[GoldenEagle]

Last I checked, that enemy was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.
How is Afghanistan the enemy but not Iraq? They go hand in hand. If you want to say there is just one enemy, say it is Bin Laden but not Afganistan without including Iraq.

Kerry is saying that other nations had more power with weapons of mass destruction than Iraq. But the leaders of Iraq showed an aggression with those weapons in the first Gulf War. I hope people seriously do not overlook at that.

[Ben E Lou]

Why the HELL would you bring that up? See my response earlier. If you want to scare a certain segment into voting against Kerry, the fear of foreign judges prosecuting Americans is probably a good way to do it.

[Chubby]

You guys know what the final analysis will be, don't you? 1) Kerry hits a HR as he had to or 2) Kerry didn't hit a HR when he had to.
Bush tries to butt in again.

Why don't you just say "Well I think either Bush will win or Kerry will win" :rolleyes:

[sabotai]

Kerry just did the "Clinton thumbs up" again. I can't help but to laugh when I see it. :)

[Peregrine]

Wow a question not about Iraq...

[Young Drachma]

I don't think indepedent voters watch the debates en masse. I think that its people who are already decided and they watch to cheer like sports fan - or to call the other guy names.

[Chubby]

Wow a question not about Iraq...
It IS a foreign affairs debate.

[Young Drachma]

See my response earlier. If you want to scare a certain segment into voting against Kerry, the fear of foreign judges prosecuting Americans is probably a good way to do it.
true that....i thought of that after i posted it.

I was more thinking it would go over the heads of most voters, tis' all.

[Warhammer]

Love Kerry's comments on NK, we want bilateral talks with NK. But, he says we are being to unilateral elsewhere. Gotta love that since Bush is doing in NK, what Kerry said he should have done in Iraq.

[Sharpieman]

Bush does seem incredibly aggravated. I'm not sure why.
Regardless of what political spectrum your on, I think everyone pretty much agrees that Bush doesn't like to be questioned about his actions. Some see it as assertive, others see it as stubborness.

[Chubby]

I don't think indepedent voters watch the debates en masse. I think that its people who are already decided and they watch to cheer like sports fan - or to call the other guy names.
I disagree. I heard about half of the expected voters will be tuning in. I think some will be entrenched in their candidates (as most here are, me included) but a lot will be undecided voters.

[Warhammer]

Kerry talks about a backdoor draft, but then states he is going to make two more divisions... Where is he getting the troops for that?

[Young Drachma]

The problem in Sudan is.....

Not all the killers are Arabs. There are black folks who are killing, too. It's not genocide. It's more complicated than that. If we went there, things would be a lot worse because we just don't understand the dynamics of the situation.

That said, Sudan's government sux.

[Buccaneer]

But he's playing to voters who have already decided to vote for him, not sound strategy IMO.
That's pretty ignorant, esp. considering past elections. The key in presidential elections is who gets the vote out on voting day. Modern elections (since WW2) has shown that it is tougher to get the Dems out to vote. In other words, they have to be excited about their candidate to get out and actually vote for him. It happened in 92 and in a reverse way, in 96 (where the Reps didn't get the vote out). We'll get 60% of the eligible voters out, the other 40% don't need paying attention to.

[Suicane75]

is Tootie going to Iraq? Why not Blair or Natalie? Just don't send Jo, she stays here with me.

[Sharpieman]

So far, this debate is pretty much even, I think Bush is winning because he's more on the offense than the defense.

[Peregrine]

Some see it as assertive, others see it as stubborness

Either way its not a bad thing in a President, though it does make it tough in debates. Kerry keeps prodding him and prodding him and you can just see him getting madder and madder, and trying to keep calm.

[Celeval]

I think Kerry won the second half-hour of the debate, but Bush is picking up ground in the last bit. He seems to have gotten control of himself a bit, and is sniping at Kerry a bit more selectively.

[Ben E Lou]

But he's playing to voters who have already decided to vote for him, not sound strategy IMO.I get the impression he's playing to the "potential voters"--the people who may or may not vote at all. Keep in mind that a small percentage of those eligible to vote actually elect the President. If either candidate could give the "I-may-or-may-not-vote" people a compelling reason to show up at the polls, he'll win. There are plenty of people in the battleground states who are generally politically apathetic, but if they hear that Kerry wants to let "furreners" prosecute American troops, that might get 'em to show up at the polls.

[SackAttack]

DC, I gotta agree with you on the 'root for their guy' thing. I think the independent voters are probably fairly sick of the whole thing and probably already know for whom they're going to 'hold-my-nose-and-swallow.'

Sharpie, I agree that he doesn't like to be questioned, but I've seen him field questions of this nature before without getting so downright restless and aggressive. I can see where it might be wearing on him, but this just isn't the venue to be showing his irritation.

[Buccaneer]

I don't think indepedent voters watch the debates en masse. I think that its people who are already decided and they watch to cheer like sports fan - or to call the other guy names.
Bingo.

[Young Drachma]

So, its obvious that they get some sort of prep on these questions prior to the debates. I think people at home might think its all impromptu.

I think I meant that for the non-savvy people...

[Sharpieman]

Sharpie, I agree that he doesn't like to be questioned, but I've seen him field questions of this nature before without getting so downright restless and aggressive. I can see where it might be wearing on him, but this just isn't the venue to be showing his irritation.
Yea, though he seems to be calming down a bit.

[Chubby]

That's pretty ignorant, esp. considering past elections. The key in presidential elections is who gets the vote out on voting day. Modern elections (since WW2) has shown that it is tougher to get the Dems out to vote. In other words, they have to be excited about their candidate to get out and actually vote for him. It happened in 92 and in a reverse way, in 96 (where the Reps didn't get the vote out). We'll get 60% of the eligible voters out, the other 40% don't need paying attention to.
Then why have debates at all :rolleyes:


Here we go "Kerry is a flipflopper" routine again, and he's flubbing it too.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh isn't this sweet, why don't they just kiss each other and take a picture while they talk about their wives and daughters? :p

[Chubby]

"I kind of put a leash on them" - Bush on his daughters. HA!

[Sharpieman]

Wow Friendliness...I want to see a huge

[GoldenEagle]

So far, this debate is pretty much even, I think Bush is winning because he's more on the offense than the defense.
I agree. It seems up and down. No one has hooked a big fish yet. Just when one seems to be gaining ground, they stumble.

[Sharpieman]

I don't know about you, but I would suspect that a lot of people think both these canidates are extremely flawed

[Buccaneer]

We have debates for the same reason we have televised political conventions - they sell ads.

Televised debates are meaningless, imo - always have been. To find out true positions, without the pressure TV lights blinking, read a good newspaper.

[Sharpieman]

I agree. It seems up and down. No one has hooked a big fish yet. Just when one seems to be gaining ground, they stumble.
Yea, but if that happens, in the end, Bush wins because Kerry doesn't get a jump in the polls.

[Young Drachma]

I agree. It seems up and down. No one has hooked a big fish yet. Just when one seems to be gaining ground, they stumble.

About what I expected....

Though its interesting how Bush makes the distinction about how he's been President and how he's done it because he's the leader. I think that's probably a good company line to trumpet.

I dunno if it does anything to get new voters to his side.

[Celeval]

So, its obvious that they get some sort of prep on these questions prior to the debates. I think people at home might think its all impromptu.
It's not like there's all that many directions the questions are going to go in. :) I imagine each campaign has a team putting together dozens of potential questions to be prepped for.

[Ben E Lou]

I don't know about you, but I would suspect that a lot of people think both these candidates are extremely flawedWell, I would hope that is obvious. I've thought all along that neither is getting my vote, and tonight has done nothing to change that.

[Chubby]

We have debates for the same reason we have televised political conventions - they sell ads.

Televised debates are meaningless, imo - always have been. To find out true positions, without the pressure TV lights blinking, read a good newspaper.
:rolleyes:

I'll get in my time machine and go back to 1950 like you'd like.



Just look at 4 years ago for an impact on an election debates gave.

[Buccaneer]

I don't know about you, but I would suspect that a lot of people think both these canidates are extremely flawed
Raises hand. What has become of the political game is flawed.

GE: WHich was the basis for my comment earlier - Kerry's behind and have to hit a HR. Of course his allies and handlers will say that he did.

[Chubby]

Kerry solid on nuclear proliferation and bringing up the bunker busters. We'll see if Bush stumbles on nuclear...

[KWhit]

Great answer by Kerry about nuclear proliferation.

[Celeval]

We have debates for the same reason we have televised political conventions - they sell ads.
Er... that explains the total lack of commercial breaks, Bucc. :)

It's not like it's not on every single channel anyway. :rolleyes: :D

[Joe]

Kerry needs to mention Kennedy a few more times

[KWhit]

Kerry solid on nuclear proliferation and bringing up the bunker busters. We'll see if Bush stumbles on nuclear...
And on "proliferation" too.

[Peregrine]

I don't know about you, but I would suspect that a lot of people think both these canidates are extremely flawed

Definitely that's my view too.

[Sharpieman]

Kerry solid on nuclear proliferation and bringing up the bunker busters. We'll see if Bush stumbles on nuclear...
you mean the word or the question?

[Buccaneer]

:rolleyes:

I'll get in my time machine and go back to 1950 like you'd like.



Just look at 4 years ago for an impact on an election debates gave.
Funny, none of the in-depth post-elections analyses by the various think tanks mentioned them.

By the way, don't you read the papers today at all or are you like the many that has to see it on TV?

[Chubby]

Kerry needs to mention Kennedy a few more times
You need to mention the 10 million new voters in afghanistan and that Kerry flip flops too :p


Bush is only worried about nukes in the hands of terrorists??? Bad answer, very bad.

[Peregrine]

We busted the A.Q. Khan network? Does he mean in the sense that we exposed him, Pakistan issued a rubber stamp pardon and went on their way as normal?

[BigJohn&TheLions]

I think the only thing that we may be able to agree upon is that after this debate people who went in liking Bush will think he won the debate and plan on voting for him and the same for Kerry. It's not like anyone will be swayed by anything in this debate.

[Chubby]

you mean the word or the question?
the word.

Bucc - I read a paper everyday, thanks. I actually read the Buffalo News because the Rochester paper blows but thanks for the concern. TV has a much greater influence than a newspaper, if you think otherwise you are foolish.

[GoldenEagle]

Is anyone else surprised that North Korea has became such a focal point in this debate? I really do not think it is that big of an issue on voter's mind right now. Kerry is attacking it though.

[Buccaneer]

Er... that explains the total lack of commercial breaks, Bucc. :)

It's not like it's not on every single channel anyway. :rolleyes: :D
You obviously didn't see all of the "pre-game" stuff on the news and cable. But stick around for the post-game show. Everyone wants to see who won and such. And then we get the day-after-game QBs which the newsies will be playing the one-liners and sound bites to their audience. Ratings will go up.

[Chubby]

Bush is on a one name basis with Putin now? :D

[Logan]

I just find it funny how people on this board can't drop their political affiliations (both Repubs and Dems) long enough to actually LISTEN to what these two men are saying.

More evidence as to what is wrong with this country.

[Chubby]

Is anyone else surprised that North Korea has became such a focal point in this debate? I really do not think it is that big of an issue on voter's mind right now. Kerry is attacking it though.
In a foreign affairs/homeland security debate, I think it's a good tactic than talking Iraq all the time. Wish they'd spend more time on homeland defense tho.

[Young Drachma]

Yeah, Vlad-a-mer and him hung out in Crawford - at the Western White House.

[Peregrine]

I think the only thing that we may be able to agree upon is that after this debate people who went in liking Bush will think he won the debate and plan on voting for him and the same for Kerry. It's not like anyone will be swayed by anything in this debat

Yeah, pretty much. In fact replace "debate" with "election campaign" and you're still pretty right.

[Sharpieman]

Bush is only worried about nukes in the hands of terrorists??? Bad answer, very bad.
Yep, but it has limited impact on voters.

[Ben E Lou]

Bush is only worried about nukes in the hands of terrorists??? Bad answer, very bad.I'd have to agree with Dubya on that one. I'd say it is much more likely that a terrorist organization will explode a nuclear or biological weapon in this country than that any nation's government will be responsible for exploding WMD in this country. The question asked about the "greatest threat" facing this country.

[Chubby]

"I'm a pretty calm guy" gets a laugh, not in a good way :D

[Celeval]

You obviously didn't see all of the "pre-game" stuff on the news and cable. But stick around for the post-game show. Everyone wants to see who won and such. And then we get the day-after-game QBs which the newsies will be playing the one-liners and sound bites to their audience. Ratings will go up.
What, on every station? Personally, I think most of America was choosing between the 'Survivor: Vanatu' or 'Joey/Will and Grace' leadins, and will be heading bedwards after the debate. Assuming they're not watching Connecticut beat up on Pittsburgh.

[Young Drachma]

I just find it funny how people on this board can't drop their political affiliations (both Repubs and Dems) long enough to actually LISTEN to what these two men are saying.

More evidence as to what is wrong with this country.

I'm not sure its so much political affiliation as much as its people having idealogical beliefs that they're not willing to waive on. I don't think that's how you can be in office, but I certainly don't think that people need to apologize for having convictions.

And that's what's great about this country. That we can have these sorts of discussions at all.

Just .02

[Buccaneer]

I just find it funny how people on this board can't drop their political affiliations (both Repubs and Dems) long enough to actually LISTEN to what these two men are saying.

More evidence as to what is wrong with this country.]

My political affiliation is neither, thank you, and what's wrong with this country is TV-inspired political doublespeak.

[Chubby]

I'd have to agree with Dubya on that one. I'd say it is much more likely that a terrorist organization will explode a nuclear or biological weapon in this country than that any nation's government will be responsible for exploding WMD in this country. The question asked about the "greatest threat" facing this country.
But an ally today, could be a "terrorist" tomorrow. Look at Iraq as example A. Which is why I think "nuclear profileration" in general is a far better answer.

[sabotai]

Is anyone else surprised that North Korea has became such a focal point in this debate? I really do not think it is that big of an issue on voter's mind right now. Kerry is attacking it though.

Maybe it should be. Osama and terrorism wasn't a big issue for voters in 2000.

[Sharpieman]

Sucks that Kerry has to go first

[Sharpieman]

If I were him I would want the chance to make a rebuttal

[Chubby]

Sucks that Kerry has to go first
Not if Bush fumbles.

[Buccaneer]

I'd have to agree with Dubya on that one. I'd say it is much more likely that a terrorist organization will explode a nuclear or biological weapon in this country than that any nation's government will be responsible for exploding WMD in this country. The question asked about the "greatest threat" facing this country.
I wonder what would the greatest threat be instead??? If this is not it, people are deluding themselves.

[Sharpieman]

LOL

[Sharpieman]

What was that word Bush said?

[Buccaneer]

But an ally today, could be a "terrorist" tomorrow. Look at Iraq as example A. Which is why I think "nuclear profileration" in general is a far better answer.
I lived through most of the Cold War and the great arms buildup in many countries. History may prove that the danger level then was minimal compared to a relative few nukes in the wrong hands.

[Chubby]

I lived through most of the Cold War and the great arms buildup in many countries. History may prove that the danger level then was minimal compared to a relative few nukes in the wrong hands.
Again, having them in the right hands today could be the wrong hands tomorrow.

[Buccaneer]

Addendum

I feel safer about the many nukes in China and Russia than I do in Pakistan.

[Chubby]

Addendum

I feel safer about the many nukes in China and Russia than I do in Pakistan.
Are those the nukes in Russia which are unaccounted for or accounted for? :D

[sabotai]

I pretty much agree with Joe Scarborough's (sp?) take on the debates.

[Warhammer]

I think those unaccounted Russian nukes would already have been used if they were in the wrong hands.

[sabotai]

Well, FWIW, the accessment from the people of MSNBC seems to be that Kerry won this, as Scarborough says, on points. But this could be pretty bad for Bush if he doesn't step it up in the next two considering terrorism and the war in Iraq are his strongest areas against Kerry, and he basically lost the debate on those issues. Kerry polls better for domestic issues than the war and Iraq. If we get two more debates of the same, it could be what Kerry needs to swing this election in his favor.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm listening to The Royal Treatment right now, and Marshall is saying that he thought it was very close. What are the various networks saying?

[Mac Howard]

I'm flipping through the channels now. Surprisingly Fox News are seeing Kerry as doing best. CNN saying that Kerry supporters are happy but Bush supporters not.

[Ben E Lou]

Back to the point on more money for the troops, I definitely think he was saying that we need more money and more troops:

And he rushed the war in Iraq without a plan to win the peace. Now, that is not the judgment that a president of the United States ought to make. You don't take America to war unless have the plan to win the peace. You don't send troops to war without the body armor that they need.

I've met kids in Ohio, parents in Wisconsin places, Iowa, where they're going out on the Internet to get the state-of-the-art body gear to send to their kids. Some of them got them for a birthday present.

I think that's wrong. Humvees -- 10,000 out of 12,000 Humvees that are over there aren't armored. And you go visit some of those kids in the hospitals today who were maimed because they don't have the armament.

This president just -- I don't know if he sees what's really happened on there. But it's getting worse by the day. More soldiers killed in June than before. More in July than June. More in August than July. More in September than in August.

And now we see beheadings. And we got weapons of mass destruction crossing the border every single day, and they're blowing people up. And we don't have enough troops there.Dubya really missed a golden opportunity in not jumping on this one.

[Senator]

I picked the wrong year not to run.

[Easy Mac]

I'd say Kerry 53 to 47, plus or minus 2 points. I think Bush just didn't play well the whole time, he just wasn't as cogent in his thoughts as Kerry. I think Bush seemed a little more jumpy tonight than normal, and he was too eager to rebuttal whenever he had a chance. He kept repeating a certain phrase (I forget the one he used), and it started to become like a "lockbox." Kerry made a very snide remark in the beginning that looked like it would hurt him, and it may. I think Bush started far better than Kerry, but Kerry played better in the middle, and I think they both finished about the same.

I also think the questions were a bit slanted against Bush. Perhaps that is the only way it could be done, seeing as how Bush is an incumbent, but it felt like Bush had to be on the defensive, and he seemed very frustated by this.

I think Kerry definitely helped himself here, but he needs to go on the offensive now before he wastes this chance. He seemed to actually have plans instead of not having Bush's.

And most of this was probably already mentioned, but I wasn't online.


But I'm biased

[Crapshoot]

NBC had it Kerry in a canter in thier small jury- including the army veteran. Interesting- but all said domestic issues matter more.

[Tigercat]

I think this debate, especially for clarity to win Independents, was a tie up untill the closing, perhaps maybe a slight advantage for Bush.

Think Kerry had a much better closing. Better composure, stronger talking parts. IMO, that closing made Kerry's night.

[Crapshoot]

Im curious- did anyone get the Fox take on it ?

[Dutch]

I'd say Bush 53 to 47, plus or minus 2 points. I think Kerry just didn't play well the whole time, he just wasn't as cogent in his thoughts as Kerry. I think Kerry seemed a little more jumpy tonight than normal, and he was too eager to rebuttal whenever he had a chance. He kept repeating a certain phrase (I forget the one he used), and it started to become like a "lockbox." Bush made a very snide remark in the beginning that looked like it would hurt him, and it may. I think Kerry started far better than Bush, but Bush played better in the middle, and I think they both finished about the same.

I also think the questions were a bit slanted against Kerry. Perhaps that is the only way it could be done, seeing as how Kerry is the challenger, but it felt like Kerry had to be on the offensive, and he seemed very frustated by this.

I think Bush definitely helped himself here, but he needs to go on the defensive now before he wastes this chance. He seemed to actually have plans instead of not having Kerry's.

And most of this was probably already mentioned, but I wasn't online.


But I'm biased

(We almost agree, Easy. :) )

[Mac Howard]

Im curious- did anyone get the Fox take on it ?

They expressed disappointment that Bush missed several opportunities to make points against Kerry. SkyDog has made one such point above. Another was Kerry admitting an error over his vote on the $87 billion support ("I made a mistake in what I said, Bush made a mistake on what he did"). Bush let that go and it was never again mentioned. They also felt that Bush looked shaken, tired and annoyed at times.

[Ben E Lou]

As far as "how they did", I'm thinking that Kerry did slightly better than Bush. However, I think that what got hammered home tonight was not such-and-such candidate is "better" than the other candidate, but that they have clear ideological differences on the issues in question. In some ways, I'm grateful for this. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I'm hoping that this will cause people to actually think about how they feel about the issues, rather than who "performed" better.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. CNN.com's headine right now is "HIGHLIGHTING THE DIFFERENCES"

[GrantDawg]

I think Kerry helped clear up his views on the war, and Bush talked in sound-bites that didn't work very well. There were no major mistakes or homeruns, so I'd call it a slight Kerry win. Will it be a major bump? Probably not. He is really going to need a strong showing in the next two debates if he hopes to eek out a win.

[Vegas Vic]

My take:

I thought Kerry looked nervous at the start of the debate, but he got stronger and more in command as it progressed.

I thought that Bush got off to a good start, but it almost looked like he ran out of material in the latter stages of the debate. He was stammering more and repeating himself, almost as if he was just trying to fill in the allocated time.

Overall, both candidates did what they needed to do. There were no obvious gaffes. I think that Kerry probably came out slightly better, because this was Bush's home turf (terrorism and Iraq), and he really didn't deliver a knockout blow that would have in effect locked up the race.

[Swaggs]

The big winner tonight is.... FOFC. Way to stay civil towards one another. :)

I did not think either particularly stood out. Bush came off as blank a few times, but stuck on message very well, and I think the things he said will probably stick in voters' minds because he kept hammering them.

I think this is really the first time a lot of people may have seen Kerry, as opposed to seeing Bush regularly for the past 3.5 years. I think Kerry may have dispelled some of the negative opinion of him by acting human while people were watching.

[GrantDawg]

The big winner tonight is.... FOFC. Way to stay civil towards one another. :)

You're a stupid, poopy-head.

[Crapshoot]

You're a stupid, poopy-head.

your mama puts out for sailors !

[GrantDawg]

your mama puts out for sailors !
How did you know that?!?

[Julio Riddols]

I'm feeling more and more like I'd rather shoot myself than register and vote for either of these two candidates. It would be a waste of my time if I were to go through all that for what I perceive to be two people who care less about the issues at hand and more about winning an election. I don't want a president who is just trying to be the most popular or say the right things.. At the same time, I don't want a president who can't get past his opponents perceived weakness and simply provide us with facts and truth and a specific real plan that we agree with, and that he will stick with. I feel like neither of these guys is worth a shit or will be worth a shit as the leader of the "free" world. Americans don't even have a voice in this really. We're basically forced to choose the lesser of two evils for the second time in 4 years.

Barring a revolution, I think America is headed for a steep decline in the next four years that will leave the rest of the world laughing at our situation and ignoring us rather than trying to come to a resolution that we propose. I don't feel any safer today than I felt on 9/11.

Unless youre rich, theres just no real future here anymore.

Just my opinion.. I don't claim to be educated, but I just dont think that the war is why we are in trouble.

[Dutch]

I think Bush hammered home the point that we can win the peace in Iraq if we stick to it and don't give up on all the hard work we have done. I don't think Kerry could counter that. Bush won big marks with asking how Kerry planned to do the same but more with the philosophy of "The Big Diversion" and "Wrong War, Wrong Time, Wrong Place". I think that was a huge point for Bush.

[Dutch]

Unless youre rich, theres just no real future here anymore.

Taking away the rich people won't solve that, that's for sure. If being rich is what makes you happy, you have the best chance on earth to do that right here in the USA than anywhere else in the world, that's a fact. Maybe there's more to your future than just money? I hope so.

[Crapshoot]

How did you know that?!?

she steals all my clients.. :(

[SFL Cat]

I think it was a wash. Questions were definitely slanted to favor Kerry and Bush did seem to be on the defensive most of the time. But I don't think anyone really won tonight. I think things might tighten a little but no major movements in the polls.

Kerry contradicted himself and actually flip-flopped on Iraq during the debate. Although he said he felt Saddam was a threat and should have been removed, he later said we should have isolated Saddam...so I guess he said he thought Saddam should be removed, but he would have left him in power if he had been running things?!! Some of his info was also dead wrong. Most of the sources I've read, indicate Bin Ladin is now hiding somewhere in Pakistan, not Afghanistan...so if Kerry was serious, he'd have a lot of troops conducting a snipe hunt. Also I found it interesting when Kerry said something about WMD's crossing the border daily...WTF was he talking about?

Bush did alright. But he could have done a lot better. I certainly think he should have done a better job explaining how Iraq is a key part in the overall war on terror. Bush certainly got the point across about Kerry changing his positions with the political winds...but could have offered more examples. Also, he should have gone after Kerry's Senate record on defense.

That said...I don't think either delivered anything close to a knockout punch to the other.

[Arles]

I think Kerry certainly looked better in the debate - he was calm, cool and appeared very knowledgeable on the issues. Bush, on the other hand, did look a little annoyed and even bewildered at times by what Kerry was saying. So, I would expect Kerry to get a slight bump from this tonight just based on the overall appearance of both men. However, I think that most people have an idea of Bush's character and dimeanor (good or bad) and I doubt the fact that he stumbled at times while speaking will change anyone's opinion of him. We've seen this from time to time for four years now.

Yet, on the substance and the soundbites, I think Bush played it much safer and avoided the big quoteable gaff. Kerry, on the other hand, walked into two situations that may haunt him down the road. The biggest was this sillyness about a "global test" for using preemption. That was a big no-no in my opinion and the republicans will play that up bigtime. Bush nailed him on it and it plays to the stereotype that Kerry will outsource our security to France and Germany.

The other thing that may hurt Kerry is something Bush said. How can you tell troops to go into war when you view the war as a mistake and done at the wrong place at the wrong time. If you feel the war is a legit mistake and we shouldn't be there, I don't think many people want a president running a war because "well, we're there now so I guess we should probably finish it".

So, the gist is Kerry wins in polls over the weekend and the race tightens up a bit, but the republicans got yet another couple of questionable soundbites to add into the kitty for their onslaught of upcoming ads. If Bush can simply tread water in the next two debates, I think he will be in great shape to win and that each night Kerry will get a little too verbose and say something he will regret later like the "global test" thing.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I've made it no secret that I dislike politics in general (althuogh I doubt many of you really noticed or cared), but I actually watched the debate for half an hour tonight, and I don't really see the point of the whole thing. It was two guys doing a scripted disagreement with each other. Sure, I understand that these guys want to be the "leader of the free world" and all that, but everything seemed so artificial. I've tried to get into politics, and I've listened to politicians on the national and local levels from time to time, and I haven't ever gotten the sense that any of them have any legitimate passion for what they're saying. It's just a competition to see who can make the most voters do a ":)".

Seriously, why the hell should I actually WANT any of these people leading me? The 30 minutes of debate I watched tonight failed to give me an answer to that question.

Edit: When I say that I've tried to "get into politics," I mean that I've tried to become interested. I didn't mean that I've tried to become a politician.