Five hunters gunned down in Wisconsin woods [Archive]

WSUCougar

11-22-2004, 09:22 AM

Damn. What is going on in this country? It's like we're regressing as a civilization.
Police: Dispute over deer stand apparently led to killings

(CNN) -- Sheriff's deputies are investigating the killings of five hunters Sunday in northwest Wisconsin -- bloodshed apparently sparked by a dispute over a hunting spot. A suspect has been arrested.

"This is completely nuts," said Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle of the Sawyer County Sheriff's Department. "Why? I mean, five people dead because somebody was trespassing on property. It makes no sense."

Three others were wounded, said Julie Veness, an emergency medical technician in Exeland, Wisconsin.

Saturday marked the opening of the nine-day deer season, and Veness said the shootings appeared to stem from a dispute over a deer stand -- an elevated position from which hunters can target deer.

"Apparently, the person was asked to leave and get out of his deer stand, and he didn't take it very well and he fired away at them," she said.

The suspect apparently got lost in the woods after the rampage. He was led out by a pair of hunters who were not aware of the shootings, according to Zeigle.

"We were very thankful to take him into custody. No one else got hurt," Zeigle said. "When he was taken into custody, his gun was empty."

Jennifer Greshowak, a spokeswoman for Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, said three men from the same hunting party were brought to that facility after suffering gunshot wounds. One of the three was transferred to a hospital in nearby Marshfield, she said.

The other two -- identified by relatives as Denny Drew and Lauren Hesebeck -- were recovering from surgery at Lakeview. Drew was in serious condition, while Hesebeck was listed in fair condition, their families said in a statement issued Sunday night.

"Our families certainly appreciate the thoughts and prayers of this close-knit community, and encourage you to think and pray for the other families involved," the statement said.

Veness said the killings have shocked Exeland, a village of 219 people about 135 miles northeast of Minneapolis.

"It just doesn't happen in this neck of the woods," she said. "We don't expect any of this to happen."

rkmsuf

11-22-2004, 09:29 AM

People are just so angry for some reason.

David Stern has it right with his comments on civil behavior.

sachmo71

11-22-2004, 09:31 AM

I heard this on the news last night, and couldn't quite figure it out. I'm still confused, but at least I know how it started.

I think.

Esquared1

11-22-2004, 09:39 AM

We have a coworker hunting up there. . . insofar as he is not one of the five, I will pass on any additional information.

Franklinnoble

11-22-2004, 10:03 AM

http://www.kinneret.co.il/games/images_s6/Deer%20Avenger%204/da4_box_big.jpg

What REALLY happened...

JonInMiddleGA

11-22-2004, 10:08 AM

I noticed a bit of potential confusion that could easily be created by the CNN version of the story, due to what appears to be a misstatement from the EMT
"Apparently, the person was asked to leave and get out of his deer stand, and he didn't take it very well and he fired away at them," she said.

Every other account I've read so far makes it pretty clear that the trespasser was asked to leave & get out of someone else's deer stand, and the exchange led to gunfire.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/1104/22hunters.html
The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.

It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.

Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.

The dead included a a teenage boy and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.

All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

Greyroofoo

11-22-2004, 10:11 AM

George Bush's America at work

Esquared1

11-22-2004, 10:12 AM

MacroGuru

11-22-2004, 10:12 AM

George Bush's America at work
I actually can't believe I am saying this but...

How is this his fault?

sachmo71

11-22-2004, 10:13 AM

George Bush's America at work

I can't see the connection.

sachmo71

11-22-2004, 10:14 AM

Talking about my co-worker last week, I stated "Hunting is not a sport. If they gave the deer the ability to shoot back, that would make it a sport."

Wouldn't that make it combat? Not sure if combat is a sport, having never been in it. IRL, that is. I'm 3l33t.

WSUCougar

11-22-2004, 10:15 AM

Please don't turn this into a partisan politics discussion. I have no qualms about deleting the thread if it does.

GrantDawg

11-22-2004, 10:15 AM

George Bush's America at work

That's the stupidest comment you've made......this week.

sachmo71

11-22-2004, 10:15 AM

Please don't turn this into a partisan politics discussion. I have no qualms about deleting the thread if it does.

Tool.

:D

GoldenEagle

11-22-2004, 10:17 AM

George Bush's America at work

How in the world can you blame this on George Bush? You are an idiot. Some people have no clue.

GoldenEagle

11-22-2004, 10:18 AM

That's the stupidest comment you've made......this week.

That is the stupidest comment I have read on this board in a long time. The "Fuck the NBA" thread is good, but that one takes the cake.

GoldenEagle

11-22-2004, 10:31 AM

Here is what I think I can piece together.

Some guy gets in a deer stand on a private property where a deer camp is at. The hunters, two of them (which usually you only hunt by yourself) approached the guy and probably had some choice words for him. I bet they did not even want to hunt out of that deer stand. The guy probably goes crazy (might have been drinking) and shoots them. They radio back for help and a woman and a teenage boy come to help along with another. The guy shoots eight people total. That is crazy. He must have just gone insane.

I guess he had a pretty good shot but he did have the high ground. He probably just wanted to kill since the bodies were scattered all over the place. That is really crazy. I just do not get it.

This makes you not want to go hunting. I hunt, but I do not ever shoot. I rarely even load up my gun. I just go to relax. It is a shame that fucked up people like this can ruin the experience.

JonInMiddleGA

11-22-2004, 10:43 AM

(which usually you only hunt by yourself)

Sidebar but ... must be different in MS than in this part of GA. At least half of the deer hunters I know hunt in pairs at least some of the time. And I'm in the "Deer Capital of Georgia", so it's hard not to know quite a few hunters around here.

mgadfly

11-22-2004, 10:45 AM

I hunt, and I usually hunt with someone (especially if there is a kid or woman with me).

Blackadar

11-22-2004, 10:45 AM

The guy must have been playing a Deer Hunter game. IT'S THE FAULT OF A VIDEOGAME. BAN VIDEO GAMES!!!! SUE VIDEO GAME DEVELOPERS AND PUBLISHERS!!!

Blackadar

11-22-2004, 10:46 AM

George Bush's America at work

I'm the furthest thing from being a Bush fan and even I think this is a stupid, moronic comment.

mattwakeman

11-22-2004, 10:48 AM

guns are bad mmmmkay...well, the people who have access to them anyways.

Honolulu_Blue

11-22-2004, 10:52 AM

Talking about my co-worker last week, I stated "Hunting is not a sport. If they gave the deer the ability to shoot back, that would make it a sport."

This whole thing is not good, but this reminds me of that brutal movie (possibly "made-for-TV) where Ice T was being hunted by people. Rutger Hauer (sp?) was on of them.

Stinks.

"Surviving the Game." It was totally released in theaters. Hell, it co-starred Acadmey Award winner F. Murray Abraham! It's basically a "Most Dangerous Game" rip-off, much like Jean Claude Van Damme's "Hard Target" or, what I would argue, was John Woo's best American film.

stevew

11-22-2004, 11:00 AM

George Bush's America at work You are an idiot.

GoldenEagle

11-22-2004, 11:55 AM

Sidebar but ... must be different in MS than in this part of GA. At least half of the deer hunters I know hunt in pairs at least some of the time. And I'm in the "Deer Capital of Georgia", so it's hard not to know quite a few hunters around here.

I do not even know when the last time I went hunting with an actual partner. Probably when I first started out, I went with my dad. But ever since about 14 I have hunted by myself. Of course, its a big deal to find your own spot and build your on deer stand and all that. That is what made it fun as a kid/teen. Like i said, now I just use it to relax. I wish it was colder, I like the cold weather.

rkmsuf

11-22-2004, 11:59 AM

Must really suck to be a deer. Not only are you unable to drive or go to the movies but the humans are camping out in trees waiting to blow your head off.

sovereignstar

11-22-2004, 12:10 PM

Damn. What is going on in this country? It's like we're regressing as a civilization.
LOL

Holy hole in a donut, Batman! It took this incident for you make that statement. We've been regressing for a loooong time now.

Bomber

11-22-2004, 12:12 PM

I'd use the ole Tommy Bowden defense and blame it on Ron Artest.

mgadfly

11-22-2004, 12:16 PM

LOL

Holy hole in a donut, Batman! It took this incident for you make that statement. We've been regressing for a loooong time now.

Read some original writings from the time of the Crusades. Things weren't exactly peachy back then.

Glengoyne

11-22-2004, 12:19 PM

guns are bad mmmmkay...well, the people who have access to them anyways.
Comparing this guy to the vast vast majority of gun owners is ludicrous. Almost all of the hunters/gun enthusiasts I know are very serious about gun safety. I have run into a few notable exceptions, but almost all of them understand the inherent danger of carrying around loaded weapons.

rkmsuf

11-22-2004, 12:21 PM

Glengoyne

11-22-2004, 12:25 PM

I think it's when you rub the deer piss on you that you risk problems.
I've heard that. In fact I think I saw something about that on "When Animals Attack".

Desnudo

11-22-2004, 01:14 PM

I heard this on the news last night, and couldn't quite figure it out. I'm still confused, but at least I know how it started.

I think.

Beer?

Esquared1

11-22-2004, 01:38 PM

"Surviving the Game." It was totally released in theaters. Hell, it co-starred Acadmey Award winner F. Murray Abraham! It's basically a "Most Dangerous Game" rip-off, much like Jean Claude Van Damme's "Hard Target" or, what I would argue, was John Woo's best American film.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a movie w/ Rutger Hauer in it, I assume it stinks.

Franklinnoble

11-22-2004, 01:43 PM

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a movie w/ Rutger Hauer in it, I assume it stinks.

Great. I guess that means the new Batman film is doomed.

mattwakeman

11-22-2004, 01:51 PM

Comparing this guy to the vast vast majority of gun owners is ludicrous. Almost all of the hunters/gun enthusiasts I know are very serious about gun safety. I have run into a few notable exceptions, but almost all of them understand the inherent danger of carrying around loaded weapons.

Which is fair enough. But what I was trying to say is that it is the sheer access to guns which is the problem. People have and will always fly off the handle but guns just make the fallout of these things that much worse. Things like this make me think back to Mr. Moore's 'Columbine' which, although mean-spirited in many ways, did ask the pertinent question as to why these things happen in America so much.

Glengoyne

11-22-2004, 02:35 PM

Great. I guess that means the new Batman film is doomed.
I think that has more to do with the track history of Batman movies, than any sort of casting decision.

JasonC23

11-22-2004, 02:38 PM

I think that has more to do with the track history of Batman movies, than any sort of casting decision.
Actually, this one looks like they're handling it smartly, as opposed to the two previous "Get a big name and stick him/her in some role, doesn't matter which, and zoom in on Batman's nipples!" films.

sabotai

11-22-2004, 02:57 PM

Hunters sit up in trees and shoot deer from there? What a bunch of pansies.

rkmsuf

11-22-2004, 03:03 PM

Hunters sit up in trees and shoot deer from there? What a bunch of pansies.

Heck, you can't risk getting near those horns even with a shotgun in your hand.

Real hunters wrestle the deer.

Hurst2112

11-22-2004, 06:41 PM

I hunted for 3 years back home...started when i was 12. Only made it 3 years because A) I got shot at once, and B) I just couldn't get into it. I liked small game hunting with friends...going out in fall and shooting rabbits and squirrels (by the way, we ate them). I think that one reason I stopped dear hunting is because everybody did it back home. Just didn't thrill me.

Bow hunting is a challenge. I liked that.

Nothing is scarier when you are 15 to be watching a deer that you snuck up on and hearing this low, loud drone go over your head...twice. I think i pissed my pants, after i fell to the ground and shot 3 times in the air.

Craptacular

11-22-2004, 07:24 PM

I've lived in Wisconsin all my life, and have never shot anything more powerful than a BB gun. Stuff like this certainly doesn't make me want to start.

JonInMiddleGA

11-22-2004, 08:32 PM

... why these things happen in America so much.

Maybe it's our liberal immigration laws?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041123/D86H8RVO0.html
Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

Chubby

11-22-2004, 09:59 PM

Maybe it's our liberal immigration laws?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041123/D86H8RVO0.html
Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.
I'm sure that's it. :rolleyes:

I'm sure this guy just lets random people into his house too because he doesn't understand the concept of private property.

clintl

11-22-2004, 10:31 PM

Since no one else has done it:

The Hunting Song (http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/hunting.htm)

Desnudo

11-23-2004, 12:22 AM

Maybe it's our liberal immigration laws?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041123/D86H8RVO0.html
Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

That strikes me funny. I just have this image of a bunch of drunk guys in camouflage walking up to a deer stand and finding a Cambodian family in there.

Franklinnoble

11-23-2004, 01:36 AM

I guess nobody told Charlie that the war was over...

Honolulu_Blue

11-23-2004, 01:58 AM

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a movie w/ Rutger Hauer in it, I assume it stinks.

Rutger has had a troubled career. He made three classics: Bladrunner, Lady Hawke, and The Hitcher. He's great in all three. After that I have no idea what happened to the man, besides getting fat. He lost it.

Raven Hawk

11-23-2004, 02:14 AM

Maybe it's our liberal immigration laws?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041123/D86H8RVO0.html
Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community.
Did they specifically need to declare that he was of Asian descent, just in case the local population couldn't figure it out by his name? Did the press really need to declare his descent so that all the rednecks up that way have a place to take their aggression out . . . :rolleyes: Would they have said the same thing if the the shooter was a member of the German Community or the Scandanavian Community?

I'd hate to be a member of the Hmong Community in NW Wisconsin right now. Yes, this is an atrocity and this Chai Vang guy is sick in the head, however, let's try not to finger an entire race for the misdoings of one person. Okay?

mattwakeman

11-23-2004, 02:40 AM

Maybe it's our liberal immigration laws?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041123/D86H8RVO0.html
Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

Ermmm, ok. So I guess we just have to wait and see whether this guy http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=42060 is non-american as well. So unless you're being ironic then your comment makes just as much sense as Greyroofoo blaming it all on George Bush.

Axxon

11-23-2004, 02:43 AM

Did they specifically need to declare that he was of Asian descent, just in case the local population couldn't figure it out by his name? Did the press really need to declare his descent so that all the rednecks up that way have a place to take their aggression out . . . :rolleyes: Would they have said the same thing if the the shooter was a member of the German Community or the Scandanavian Community?

I'd hate to be a member of the Hmong Community in NW Wisconsin right now. Yes, this is an atrocity and this Chai Vang guy is sick in the head, however, let's try not to finger an entire race for the misdoings of one person. Okay?

Of course it simply had to be racist. It couldn't have anything to do with, oh, I don't know, the part you snipped.

While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

It couldn't possibly be that they are reporting about a very uneasy state of coexistence that could very much be an issue assuming that this guy wasn't just garden variety wacko but instead was "driven over the edge" wacko. Maybe he'd been told to get out of one too many trees that morning.

Doesn't make it right but if his actions are at all influenced by his environment ( and there's good reason to think it might ) then that environment ( the clash of cultures not the rightness of one over the other ) is important and it would be wrong not to report on it.

Maybe members of both groups will read this and go "WTF" this is crazy and something positive can come out of it.

In any case I don't see where his last name could convey his nationality of origin ( not all of them look alike nor share the same last name you know ) nor could it convey exactly what the conditions under which these shootings occured and if things can get so heated that someone of either race would go on a killing spree, this is important news.

I'm not buying that there is no connection though that may be true. I'd wager tempers were on edge
in them there woods and something ( alcohol, bad day, words spoken or misheard )escalated the situation.

That makes some sense anyway. It makes way more sense than the guy just being asked politely to leave the tree and losing it.

Oh, and yes, if the Scandinavians and the hunters were having public disputes with each other I'm quite positive they'd bring that up too for the same reason.

JonInMiddleGA

11-23-2004, 05:55 AM

So unless you're being ironic then your comment makes just as much sense as Greyroofoo blaming it all on George Bush.

Actually, I was aiming for sarcasm more than irony.

See, non-US poster makes a crack about "why these things happen in America so much", response highlights the fact that the poster was clearly an example of "everybody's All-American".

I realize that I omitted the universal symbol for sarcasm " :rolleyes: ", but damn, I figured it was so obvious ...

cthomer5000

11-23-2004, 06:10 AM

This is Rutger Hauer's America at work.

Icy

11-23-2004, 06:12 AM

JonInMiddleGA

11-23-2004, 06:37 AM

I cant say i'm sorry for hunters killed by hunting weapons, i don't want to offend any of you guys, but you gets in life what you desserve.

Charming. Another precinct heard from, your input is duly noted.

I'm sure these guys would be pleased to know that you believe they deserve to be murdered.
http://www.adventuresinhunting.com/huntEurasia/hunt_EuropeMonteriaSpain.htm
or these guys
http://www.hrwscothunt.ndtilda.co.uk/spain.htm
or these guys
http://www.el-palomar.com/2intro.htm

Maybe you should swing by and tell them, I'm should they would provide an interesting perspective on your input.

sachmo71

11-23-2004, 08:02 AM

Umm using a semiautomatic rifle versus a innoncent animal is a sport? Mybe using a knife or arch could be called sport (not for me anyway) but not that. What about using grenades or missiles? it could be even easier that way.
I cant say i'm sorry for hunters killed by hunting weapons, i don't want to offend any of you guys, but you gets in life what you desserve.

I guess I'll never understand this point of view. You may not agree with killing animals...that's fine. But isn't feeling so strongly about that to a degree where you believe that these people deserved to die is just as bad, if not worse, then the death of animals?

You would think that wanting to protect animals would extend to all species.

Icy

11-23-2004, 09:51 AM

Charming. Another precinct heard from, your input is duly noted.

I'm sure these guys would be pleased to know that you believe they deserve to be murdered.
http://www.adventuresinhunting.com/huntEurasia/hunt_EuropeMonteriaSpain.htm
or these guys
http://www.hrwscothunt.ndtilda.co.uk/spain.htm
or these guys
http://www.el-palomar.com/2intro.htm

Maybe you should swing by and tell them, I'm should they would provide an interesting perspective on your input.

Yes i hate hunting on mather on which country, you don't need to look for hunter news in Spain to fight against my opinion if that was your intention, i'm not a nationalist that will say that if done in my country is ok but bad at anothers (mybe some guys from other countries can't say the same). We have also bulls in Spain and i'm 100% against it as it's even worst than hunting for fun.

I hate hunting, i think is so coward to shoot an animal from 500mts or more using an automatic rifle while sitting in a confortable chair. Then go to the bar to tell your friends how big man you are for doing that. Of course i'm talking about that ones that just kill for fun and even worst, they do it with high tech weapons, is not the same to kill to eat.

And sachmo, is not that i want all hunters killed, but it would be false from me saying that i'm sorry for them, i'm only sorry for the kid as he was not guilty, but the father is double guilty becase bringing his kid with him to learn that coward act. And about comparing the hunter with the innocent animal is not fair, as the animal is not attacking you on any way, and even less on a coward way as that kind of high tech hunters do.

GoldenEagle

11-23-2004, 09:53 AM

Umm using a semiautomatic rifle versus a innoncent animal is a sport? Mybe using a knife or arch could be called sport (not for me anyway) but not that. What about using grenades or missiles? it could be even easier that way.
I cant say i'm sorry for hunters killed by hunting weapons, i don't want to offend any of you guys, but you gets in life what you desserve.

Why is FOFC racking up dumb ass posts lately? Are we regressing as a message board?

I have bet you have neevr had any meat before. If I kill something, I am going to eat it. How is that any different from a cow or chicked being slaughtered? Hunting also helps keep down over population which helps in all sorts of ways.

mattwakeman

11-23-2004, 10:08 AM

Actually, I was aiming for sarcasm more than irony.

See, non-US poster makes a crack about "why these things happen in America so much", response highlights the fact that the poster was clearly an example of "everybody's All-American".

I realize that I omitted the universal symbol for sarcasm " :rolleyes: ", but damn, I figured it was so obvious ...

Just genuine interest as to why these things seem to happen with such frequency is all.

miked

11-23-2004, 10:25 AM

I don't ill-will to hunters, or anyone for that matter...but I do agree with the point that it does not seem much of a sport to sit in a tree with an SKS rilfe waiting for little deer to pass by. I know we have some sort of backwards ban on assault rifles, but I really don't believe their is any need to own one, even for sport. I'm sure our forefathers who gave us the right to bear arms (as militias I believe), did not intend us to go out hurting nature with semi-automatic weapons.

Tragic story, and it underscores the need for weapons-laws reform. The hunters on the board can talk about the majority of people using weapons responsibly, but there is just no need for people to sit in trees with AKs and SKSs shooting animals and calling it a sport.

Raven Hawk

11-23-2004, 10:30 AM

Of course it simply had to be racist. It couldn't have anything to do with, oh, I don't know, the part you snipped.

It couldn't possibly be that they are reporting about a very uneasy state of coexistence that could very much be an issue assuming that this guy wasn't just garden variety wacko but instead was "driven over the edge" wacko. Maybe he'd been told to get out of one too many trees that morning.

Doesn't make it right but if his actions are at all influenced by his environment ( and there's good reason to think it might ) then that environment ( the clash of cultures not the rightness of one over the other ) is important and it would be wrong not to report on it.
I apologize for my lack of eloquence, but I wasn't trying to imply that the reporters were being racist. I was trying to imply that the reporters were being irresponsible for reporting that information and were, in fact, throwing gas on the fire.

Maybe members of both groups will read this and go "WTF" this is crazy and something positive can come out of it.
Maybe. But then again, I haven't spotted any flying pigs lately.

In any case I don't see where his last name could convey his nationality of origin ( not all of them look alike nor share the same last name you know ) nor could it convey exactly what the conditions under which these shootings occured and if things can get so heated that someone of either race would go on a killing spree, this is important news.
Once again, my elusive point was missed. I agree with you. You can't convey what his nationality is through his name. You can tell from his name that he is of Asian descent, but not a member of the Hmong community. Why should the reporters put a finger on it and give vengence an bigger target than the individual who committed the crime?

I'm not buying that there is no connection though that may be true. I'd wager tempers were on edge in them there woods and something ( alcohol, bad day, words spoken or misheard )escalated the situation.

That makes some sense anyway. It makes way more sense than the guy just being asked politely to leave the tree and losing it.
Having gone to college up in that area, I can tell you this from my experience. The word "Hmong" is used in a very deragatory manner by white people in that area. From the article, it is obvious that this is still the case (even though I'm 7 years removed from the region) because the reporters were very careful to say that Vang was "a member of the Hmong community" instead of calling him a "Hmong."

What makes more sense than the scenario that you presented is this: He was asked to leave the tree. He may have been a little hesitant at first and gotten into an argument with the property owners. Eventually he decided that he would leave (the article does state that he was already walking away before he started firing) and began walking away. The property owner probably threw out a racial slur that got Vang's blood boiling and Vang turned and fired.

Oh, and yes, if the Scandinavians and the hunters were having public disputes with each other I'm quite positive they'd bring that up too for the same reason.
You're probably right. The only reason that I said that is because the region has a heavy Scandanavian/German heritage. The thing is that these two populations get along and their cultures have become more diluted by merging with american culture. They've been here longer. The Hmong Community has been immigrating to this region mostly in the last 30 years or so, so their culture hasn't yet been "americanized."

All that said, there is no excuse for Vang. Even if he had to walk away with racial slurs ringing in his ears, that is not an excuse to open fire on a person with a semi-automatic weapon. He should be punished according to the law.

Icy

11-23-2004, 10:40 AM

Why is FOFC racking up dumb ass posts lately? Are we regressing as a message board?

Where have i insulted you before? i have totally lost my respect for you since now. If that is your way of discussing for sure this board is regressing.

I have bet you have neevr had any meat before. If I kill something, I am going to eat it. How is that any different from a cow or chicked being slaughtered? Hunting also helps keep down over population which helps in all sorts of ways.

Of course i eat meat but don't kill for fun. You just answered exactly most of hunters do, we do his to help overpopulation etc etc... come on man, they do it for fun as hobby, that is why they call it sport and also why they hung the heads on their walls to impress their friends.

WSUCougar

11-23-2004, 10:44 AM

Of course i eat meat but don't kill for fun. You just answered exactly most of hunters do, we do his to help overpopulation etc etc... come on man, they do it for fun as hobby, that is why they call it sport and also why they hung the heads on their walls to impress their friends.
Then you are just another of the typically hypocritical meat-eaters that think you are on morally-higher ground because someone kills the meat they eat with a rifle instead of having somebody else do it for you with a sledge-hammer or a slaughterhouse machine. Give it a rest.

Icy

11-23-2004, 10:47 AM

Then you are just another of the typically hypocritical meat-eaters that think you are on morally-higher ground because someone kills the meat they eat with a rifle instead of having somebody else do it for you with a sledge-hammer or a slaughterhouse machine. Give it a rest.

No, the hypocritical is who uses assault rifles to kill an animal at 500mts or more while sitting under a tree and call it sport and also say that he does that to help overpopulation and not because he loves to kill animals. again in my books there is a big difference on killing to eat than on killing for fun.

Franklinnoble

11-23-2004, 11:08 AM

No, the hypocritical is who uses assault rifles to kill an animal at 500mts or more while sitting under a tree and call it sport and also say that he does that to help overpopulation and not because he loves to kill animals. again in my books there is a big difference on killing to eat than on killing for fun.

Dude, seriously... you need to visit a slaughterhouse sometime, and then tell me which method you think is more humane.

Beef cattle, for example, are often shipped in tightly packed livestock trucks, with no regard for their well-being. It is not unusual for many cows to arrive at the slaughterhouse with broken legs, lying about in pain, writhing in their own filth, and that of dozens of their similarly ill-fated comrades.

They are loaded for processing by forklift, because brute mechanical force is a lot easier than just herding them into the slaughter pens (especially if their legs are broken). Then they are rendered senseless by a bolt that is driven into their skulls by a pneumatic hammer. They are not quite dead at this point, but the processing begins, if they're lucky, with their throats being slashed and then they are butchered.

Personally, I think the wild deer have it better. Typically, a fat healthy buck is out for a morning stroll, if he's lucky, just after getting to rut a nice doe, and enjoying the fresh air, and maybe a spot of breakfast. He doesn't even know what hits him when the bullet strikes, and he's dead almost instantly (if the hunter is a decent shot).

Hell, even the bulls at a bullfight have it better - at least they're given something of a sporting chance... every now and then, the matador gets the horns.

sachmo71

11-23-2004, 11:08 AM

Icy,

You are generalizing.
Many hunters enjoy the sport, there is no argument there. But many ONLY hunt during state sponsored hunts, which are called specifically for population control. It's a sad fact of modern life that the free range that many animals once enjoyed is disappering at a rapid pace. The result of this is that you have about the same population as you did before, but less food to feed them. Without these sponsored hunts, you wouild have animals dying of starvation and other causes.

Believe me when I tell you most hunters that I know do not hunt because they love to kill animals. They do it because they love wildlife and nature.

I couldn't do it, myself. I went hunting once, but couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger, but I understand why people do it.

rkmsuf

11-23-2004, 11:11 AM

I think part of it is considering hunting a sport or sporting. Sitting up in a tree blowing away deer doesn't inspire wonderment as to appreciating the hunters great skill.

Animals are animals for a reason so I'm not hung up on cruelty to them or anything it's just not much of a 'game' since the deer stand almost zero chance.

Icy

11-23-2004, 11:21 AM

Franklinnoble i totally agree with you, i don't like either how they are killed at the slaughterhouse or even when they are carried in trucks etc but that is done wrong at the slaughterhouse doesn't mean that to kill them for fun is right. A wrong thing shouldn't be an excuse for another bad thing.

sachmo71 i agree that some hunters love wildlife and nature, but i can tell you that they are not the ones using assault weapons. Also i keep thinking that they do it for fun even if they also help the nature.

rkmsuf, totally agree with you and that is the point of what i want to mean, where is the sport on it?

sachmo71

11-23-2004, 11:31 AM

sachmo71 i agree that some hunters love wildlife and nature, but i can tell you that they are not the ones using assault weapons. Also i keep thinking that they do it for fun even if they also help the nature.

As far as "hunting with assault weapons" goes, I think you may be letting the word fill your mind with horrible images of bloodythirsty hunters firing off full clips and mangling a deer into ground beef. It all depends on the weapon configurations, but usually these "assault weapons" are no more deadly than their civilian counterparts. A 30-06 fires the same round as an AR-15 (I believe that is correct), but the AR-15 my be prefered weapon because of the hunter's preference. I'll agree with you that hunting with a fully automatic weapon is rediculious.

And when you say you "keep thinking that they do it for fun", are you basing this on personal experience? Have you known a hunter who just did it because he enjoyed killing things? That's not been my experience...not even close, but maybe you've had a different experience.

JonInMiddleGA

11-23-2004, 11:35 AM

I couldn't do it, myself. I went hunting once, but couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger, but I understand why people do it.

Odd as it may seem to some, I'm not a hunter either. I'm surrounded by 'em, and I've got no problem with the ones who do it legally, but it's not my thing.
The notion of getting up that early & sitting in the woods most of the day sounds a lot more like punishment to me than recreation. But without them, deer hunters specifically, we'd get more & more deer/car accidents -- locally, we average three of those [u]per day[/i], at significant cost that includes ever-increasing insurance rates, additional injures, additional trauma to humans, etc.

No, I don't hunt, deer or anything else -- but I sure do wish steady success for those who do.

Raven Hawk

11-23-2004, 11:37 AM

Believe me when I tell you most hunters that I know do not hunt because they love to kill animals. They do it because they love wildlife and nature.
I have to call bullshit on this one. I think that most hunter do it for the adrenaline rush that they get after they've fired their weapon. They do not do it because they love wildlife and nature. They like using their predatory instinct that has almost gone vestigial in the rest of us. To be a good hunter you have to appreciate wildlife and nature, or Mother Nature will kick your ass.

Noop

11-23-2004, 11:43 AM

How bout this you all are dumb asses.

sachmo71

11-23-2004, 11:46 AM

I have to call bullshit on this one. I think that most hunter do it for the adrenaline rush that they get after they've fired their weapon. They do not do it because they love wildlife and nature. They like using their predatory instinct that has almost gone vestigial in the rest of us. To be a good hunter you have to appreciate wildlife and nature, or Mother Nature will kick your ass.

You can call bullshit until you are blue in the face, Raven Hawk. These are friends of mine, and that's how they told me they feel. I can't really explain it to you any better than that.

*shrug*

Icy

11-23-2004, 11:47 AM

How bout this you all are dumb asses.
LOL we all? the ones that support hunting and the ones that don't like it? Now this is the best argument to this discussion.

Glengoyne

11-23-2004, 12:04 PM

...

I hate hunting, i think is so coward to shoot an animal from 500mts or more using an automatic rifle while sitting in a confortable chair. Then go to the bar to tell your friends how big man you are for doing that. Of course i'm talking about that ones that just kill for fun and even worst, they do it with high tech weapons, is not the same to kill to eat.
I'd actually say it takes incredible skill to shoot an animal at 500 mts. As for whether or not it is sporting, it certainly is the kind of thing someone would get a medal for in the Olympics.

Also you and others in this thread keep referring to Assault rifle or automatic rifle. Neither is really an accurate term, as most people don't understand what those terms mean. First of all hunters don't use automatic rifles, at all...they are illegal. Secondly most don't use anything that really should be called an assault rifle. Some, a lot, of hunters use semi-automatic rifles that hold a handfull of rounds. Assault rifles really aren't all that accurate at the range most hunters hunt at.

And sachmo, is not that i want all hunters killed, but it would be false from me saying that i'm sorry for them, i'm only sorry for the kid as he was not guilty, but the father is double guilty becase bringing his kid with him to learn that coward act. And about comparing the hunter with the innocent animal is not fair, as the animal is not attacking you on any way, and even less on a coward way as that kind of high tech hunters do.
You have no knowledge of how these people that were killed were hunting. Maybe they were bow hunters. You simply don't know. You are making broad generalized statements about the victims here that you really have no evidence to support. Also to declare that they deserved to be killed, or that you have no sympathy for them is utterly ridiculous. You have less respect for their lives than those of the animals.

When you talk about a father teaching his son a cowardly act, you are missing the point that hunting is something that is part of a lot of people's heritage. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean you should declare it invalid, immoral, or cowardly, let alone punishable by death.

Also, hunters don't leave the deer in the field. They aren't killing for fun. These guys pack out the meat, and eat it. They are hunting for the sport of it. The outdoor experience, the technical proficiency to hit a target, the commraderie of one's companions. It isn't for me, but I certainly don't disrespect those that do enjoy the experience.

Blackadar

11-23-2004, 12:08 PM

I'd actually say it takes incredible skill to shoot an animal at 500 mts. As for whether or not it is sporting, it certainly is the kind of thing someone would get a medal for in the Olympics.

Also you and others in this thread keep referring to Assault rifle or automatic rifle. Neither is really an accurate term, as most people don't understand what those terms mean. First of all hunters don't use automatic rifles, at all...they are illegal. Secondly most don't use anything that really should be called an assault rifle. Some, a lot, of hunters use semi-automatic rifles that hold a handfull of rounds. Assault rifles really aren't all that accurate at the range most hunters hunt at.

You have no knowledge of how these people that were killed were hunting. Maybe they were bow hunters. You simply don't know. You are making broad generalized statements about the victims here that you really have no evidence to support. Also to declare that they deserved to be killed, or that you have no sympathy for them is utterly ridiculous. You have less respect for their lives than those of the animals.

When you talk about a father teaching his son a cowardly act, you are missing the point that hunting is something that is part of a lot of people's heritage. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean you should declare it invalid, immoral, or cowardly, let alone punishable by death.

Also, hunters don't leave the deer in the field. They aren't killing for fun. These guys pack out the meat, and eat it. They are hunting for the sport of it. The outdoor experience, the technical proficiency to hit a target, the commraderie of one's companions. It isn't for me, but I certainly don't disrespect those that do enjoy the experience.

Well said.

Noop

11-23-2004, 12:10 PM

LOL we all? the ones that support hunting and the ones that don't like it? Now this is the best argument to this discussion.
Every person in this thread other then me is a dumb ass... no point in trying to present your opinions because some/most are well set in their ways/opinions.

GoldenEagle

11-23-2004, 12:18 PM

Where have i insulted you before? i have totally lost my respect for you since now. If that is your way of discussing for sure this board is regressing.

Of course i eat meat but don't kill for fun. You just answered exactly most of hunters do, we do his to help overpopulation etc etc... come on man, they do it for fun as hobby, that is why they call it sport and also why they hung the heads on their walls to impress their friends.

Your comment was pure idotic. To say that a human deserved to get gunned down becuase he was hunting is stupid. You have never insulted me before, but that one comment was one of the dumbest and insulting things I have ever read.

I have never shot at a deer even though I have had chances to. I do enjoy firing my weapon but that is not why I go and hunt.

I have killed many duck and dove before. You can not go out and buy duck and dove at the grocery store. I kill them, I clean them, and I cook them. I enjoy the taste.

I also only hunt within regulations that the state of Mississippi sets forth. I do not shoot a high powered rifle, I do not need one. People that hunt with high powered rifles need them because they have poor shots. When I shoot, I kill.

Do I deserved to get killed by some insane hunter who is on my property? Do I? Answer that.

rkmsuf

11-23-2004, 12:20 PM

Freeze sucker!

http://www.guns-galore.com/deer%20sight.gif

Franklinnoble

11-23-2004, 12:27 PM

Every person in this thread other then me is a dumb ass....

That's QOTM material, baby...

Icy

11-23-2004, 01:16 PM

Every person in this thread other then me is a dumb ass... no point in trying to present your opinions because some/most are well set in their ways/opinions.

Totally agree with you on that, but we come to boards to express our opinions even when others don't share it, if we all would agree on all it would be so boring. What i don't like is when some use insults insted of write their opinions when they don't agree with you.

Raven Hawk

11-23-2004, 01:23 PM

You can call bullshit until you are blue in the face, Raven Hawk. These are friends of mine, and that's how they told me they feel. I can't really explain it to you any better than that.

*shrug*
Yeah, I suppose it is kind of pointless for me to call bullshit on you. ;)

I still think your friends are full of shit though. Enjoying the outdoors may be a part of hunting, but if that's the case, why don't they shoot deer with a telephoto lens instead of a high-powered rifle? There are plenty of ways that you can enjoy the outdoors without hunting.

I hope that they don't feel the need to rationalize it to you because you aren't a hunter. If they like to hunt, they should say they like to hunt. Why be ashamed? No need to rationalize it.

Surtt

11-23-2004, 01:42 PM

A 30-06 fires the same round as an AR-15 (I believe that is correct), but the AR-15 my be prefered weapon because of the hunter's preference. I'll agree with you that hunting with a fully automatic weapon is rediculious.

That is totally wrong.

The AR-15 is .223 caliber, the same as our military uses. It is consider too small for deer by any serious hunter.
The 30-06 is a caliber not a rifle, there are various rifles chambered in 30-06 such as the M1, Garand.

rkmsuf

11-23-2004, 01:44 PM

guns, pfft.

be a man and use nothing but your hands. that's nature.

ever heard of the crocodile hunter, bitches?

gstelmack

11-23-2004, 01:45 PM

I still think your friends are full of shit though. Enjoying the outdoors may be a part of hunting, but if that's the case, why don't they shoot deer with a telephoto lens instead of a high-powered rifle? There are plenty of ways that you can enjoy the outdoors without hunting.
You can't eat a picture...

Noop

11-23-2004, 01:55 PM

That's QOTM material, baby...
Why was it taken away?

ICY - FOFC is known for getting personal in debates. I know alot of them because they have attack me when I have tried to be respectful. There are some who just dislike namely Bucc but he is a *Bad Bad Word*.

Qwikshot

11-23-2004, 01:56 PM

Well its going to get worse, as I suspected, the attacker is now pleading that he was shot at first, and that the people he killed, one of them fired, first, and he was firing in self defense (even though he admits some were running away at the time of the shooting)...it's going to get very ugly.

mgadfly

11-23-2004, 01:56 PM

Dude, seriously... you need to visit a slaughterhouse sometime, and then tell me which method you think is more humane.

Beef cattle, for example, are often shipped in tightly packed livestock trucks, with no regard for their well-being. It is not unusual for many cows to arrive at the slaughterhouse with broken legs, lying about in pain, writhing in their own filth, and that of dozens of their similarly ill-fated comrades.

They are loaded for processing by forklift, because brute mechanical force is a lot easier than just herding them into the slaughter pens (especially if their legs are broken). Then they are rendered senseless by a bolt that is driven into their skulls by a pneumatic hammer. They are not quite dead at this point, but the processing begins, if they're lucky, with their throats being slashed and then they are butchered.

Personally, I think the wild deer have it better. Typically, a fat healthy buck is out for a morning stroll, if he's lucky, just after getting to rut a nice doe, and enjoying the fresh air, and maybe a spot of breakfast. He doesn't even know what hits him when the bullet strikes, and he's dead almost instantly (if the hunter is a decent shot).

Hell, even the bulls at a bullfight have it better - at least they're given something of a sporting chance... every now and then, the matador gets the horns.

This one made me laugh. I'm a hunter, and agree with just about everything here except for this one: He doesn't even know what hits him when the bullet strikes, and he's dead almost instantly (if the hunter is a decent shot).

I shot this elk once, right behind the front left leg, it went through both lungs but missed his heart. He ran for probably about a minute before his system ran out of oxygen and he collapsed. I've seen a couple of animals killed almost instantly, but for everyone of those I've seen some guy miss just a little and then spent the day tracking a blood trail that seemed like it would never end.

sachmo71

11-23-2004, 02:04 PM

That is totally wrong.

The AR-15 is .223 caliber, the same as our military uses. It is consider too small for deer by any serious hunter.
The 30-06 is a caliber not a rifle, there are various rifles chambered in 30-06 such as the M1, Garand.

Thanks, Surtt.

I was thinking that 5.56 was the same as 30-06.

Also, when I was around people with said weapons, they refered to them as "my 30 ought 6" or "my 30 30", hence the use of the rifle caliber as the weapon name. But I was thinking that the M1 was 7.62mm. Is that wrong?

Raven Hawk

11-23-2004, 02:12 PM

You can't eat a picture...
I heard that if you add the right spices they can make a good sausage. :)

dacman

11-23-2004, 02:18 PM

http://webs.lanset.com/backplan/guncab/8x57/cartridgesL.jpg

From left to right:

The 1st round is a 30-03 (not really used anymore)-- the next 2 are 30-06 and the last 3 are various 7.62mm.

The bullet is the same caliber, but different in length and shape. Same for the cartridge.

edit: Also the 5.56mm is the same as a .223 so is NOT a 30-06.

Franklinnoble

11-23-2004, 02:35 PM

I shot this elk once, right behind the front left leg, it went through both lungs but missed his heart. He ran for probably about a minute before his system ran out of oxygen and he collapsed. I've seen a couple of animals killed almost instantly, but for everyone of those I've seen some guy miss just a little and then spent the day tracking a blood trail that seemed like it would never end.

This is true.

For starters, an elk is a big darned animal... only a very accurate shot with a very large bullet is going to take it down immediately.

With most deer, a good kill shot in the neck or heart/lungs area will do the trick right away, but I know prolonged deaths can indeed happen. My point was really that the meat we buy at a grocery store isn't exactly procured by more humane means than hunting.

Surtt

11-23-2004, 03:16 PM

Thanks, Surtt.

I was thinking that 5.56 was the same as 30-06.

Also, when I was around people with said weapons, they refered to them as "my 30 ought 6" or "my 30 30", hence the use of the rifle caliber as the weapon name. But I was thinking that the M1 was 7.62mm. Is that wrong?

The 30-30 and the 30-06 are two completely different rounds.
The bullet is .3 in in diameter for each. But that is the only thing in common.
The 30-30 is still used, mostly in wooded areas.

The 5.56 is the metric equivalent of the .223
the 7.62 is the metric equivalent of the .308 not the 30-06

There is little rhyme or reason for bullet names and they are confusing.

Karlifornia

11-23-2004, 03:46 PM

I've lived in San Jose for pretty much my entire life, so I have never hunted an animal, nor have I even fired anything more than a Super Soaker. Saying that, my girlfriend and I drove from California to the Oklahoma/Arkansas border to visit her family. Now, keep in mind that I am half-black, cynical, and non-religious. Her family and friends were good ol' boys, and needless to say, I was damn nervous. Our first stop was in a town called Kinta, Oklahoma. Her childhood friend Tony lived their with his family, and the first night we were there, a bunch of his hunting buddies came over to practice shooting their bows. After the initial nerves wore off, I had a great time learning about this "sport" that I would never take part in. They all hunted for the camaraderie, the cat and mouse feeling, and for the tasty meat it provided. Every one of the seemed to have a genuine respect for the game they hunted, and my perspective on hunting (and southerners) changed for the better.

Glengoyne

11-23-2004, 04:00 PM

Hurst2112

11-23-2004, 04:53 PM

My brother-in-law is an avid hunter. He hunts pretty much anything. He packs into the woods for days at a time, and packs out what he "bags". A few months back he got his first bear. With a bow and arrow, no less. I told him I thought he was smarter than hunting bear with a bow would indicate. He mentioned that his hunting partner had his rifle at the ready, just in case the arrow didn't do the trick.

I believe that some states (maybe Alaska) REQUIRE you to carry a firearm when bow hunting bear.

Course, if you were Fred Bear...you didn't need anything else except that 1 arrow. Saw video of him sneak up on a Grizzly, come up from behind a rock, sling 1 arrow, duck beneath the rock and waited for the bear to die. Quite impressive.