Stereotype:race and tipping

[Fritz]

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.

[wade moore]

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.

Before I moved down here to Hampton Roads, I came from Northern Virginia. I had many friends that worked as servers through High School, College, etc... This stereotype is very much alive there as well...

From my discussions I've had, this stereotype is so widespread because.. if you ask those involved (I have never been a server)... "it's true"... anecdotally, there appears to be at least some evidence that African Americans are prone to tipping less... I have heard similar things about Hispanic guests also..

I'd be curious as to whether any studies have ever been done on this...

(I've definately heard this in Hampton Roads FWIW.. Including at a restaurant in Williamsburg that my g/f worked at)

[JeeberD]

Yes, yes it is widespread. And for the most part I have found the sterotype to be true in my ownpersonal experience. Of course, white trash and mexicans (not hispanics, but people from mexico who speak very little english, order tons of food, then tip 5%) are also bad tippers.

Of course, the stereotype isn't always true.

[rafini]

I don't really have a comment on the question, but I live in Va Beach, where are at?

[JeeberD]

Yes, yes it is widespread. And for the most part I have found the sterotype to be true in my ownpersonal experience. Of course, white trash and mexicans (not hispanics, but people from mexico who speak very little english, order tons of food, then tip 5%) are also bad tippers.

Of course, the stereotype isn't always true.

And don't think this is just a white boys rantings. Our black servers feel the same way as well...

[QuikSand]

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.

[Fritz]

rafini - Newport News

---

My only direct exposure to this stereotype came while i managed a bar. I ran a $.01 draft night, and the kids from Hampton Univ. found out about it and started to drive up. For those who may not know, Hampton is is an expensive private Black University.

The kids had a great time, but didn't tip well at all. So poorly I ended up cancelling the night. I wasn't selling food, was losing money on beer, and my staff wasn't making any money either.

The college students from other nearby places were not great tippers either. So I don't think my experience lends much weight in either direction.

[Ben E Lou]

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.Yup. Add that to the fact that, as a culture, we can be a bit more prone to living beyond our means, and that's where it really kicks in.

[sachmo71]

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.
1) I can confirm that it is a very wide stereotype throughout the resturant industry, from my experience.
2) In my person experience, the stereotype is not founded.
3) This stereotype does extend to other racial groups, but I believe the root cause is actually financial rather than racial.


In my own table waiting days, I would always be the guy who would step up to take a table that fit the stereotype. Sometimes I was burned, but a few times it really paid off. In my experience, you never really know how someone is going to tip, so I would *TRY* to treat everyone the same way.

[cuervo72]

sachmo brings up an interesting point - I believe that many servers size up their patrons, and adjust their service according to their stereotypes.

[digamma]

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.
I might also throw age in there as well.

[cuervo72]

I might also throw age in there as well.

Yep...I think more mature folks will on the whole receive better service than younger ones because the servers feel they will tip better.

[Fritz]

<i>so far I am impressed that this thread has gone 12 deep without any whackos pulling it apart. bravo</i>

[Ksyrup]

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.
That was my first thought as well. You're typically going to get a smaller tip from people who can't afford to tip as well as others. I'd be more interested to hear even anecdotal evidence about whether seemingly "well off" blacks/ hispanics, etc., still tip less than others.

I know from my own personal experience, it wasn't until I was making good money that I started tipping 20% minimum. I would generally go with 10-15%, and occasionally, I admit, go below that depending on what was in the bank account that week. But that was during school or right after I got out.

[Arles]

College kids stink as tippers, regardless of race. But I think that Quik's argument on financial class is a good one. I've done limited work for bars/restaurants (and have had numerous friends that have been more involved), but the general theme is that people in the middle to upper middle class tend to be the best tippers on average - regardless of other factors. When a friend of mine used to work at a restaurant outside the university area, he said the best tippers were guys from Raytheon that came down for lunches (no real difference between white, black and hispanic in that group). They were better than the wealthier professors and high-end "celebrities" on average.

His hypothesis was that many of them probably worked through college at some kind of service job and were more appreciative of his efforts because they could relate.

[QuikSand]

I ran a $.01 draft night ... The kids had a great time, but didn't tip well at all.

On penny draft night, I always make it a point to tip 100%, rules of thumb be damned. I drink five beers, I'll just leave the whole dime and won't even ask for change, I don't care.

I do see your point

[JeeberD]

I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

Bingo. The elderly do tend to tip less, just like high school kids. College kids aren't terrible, but those high school kids drive me nuts...

[Blackadar]

From my experiences, it's much more class than race. I just don't think some people can calculate 15%.

*EXCEPT*

*STEREOTYPE ALERT*

A group of professional, black women - usually on lunch. They're overall not great tippers anway, but for whatever reason, they are generally AWFUL tippers to white women. They'll tip to any other groups, but not white girls. I've seen it many, many times.

[digamma]

Yep...I think more mature folks will on the whole receive better service than younger ones because the servers feel they will tip better.
I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

[Fritz]

The theories about clas sand tipping are interesting.


If I read this article < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/economics/analysis.html > correctly, the "black middle class" is the largest economic segment of their population. (which I was not expecting).

[cuervo72]

I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

Ok, I'll accept this. But I also agree with the stereotype that Arles pointed out, which annoyed my wife and I post-college and pre-kids.

Now...what I want to know is why and how has the definition of what is "acceptable" for a tip evolved? Service then should be roughly equivalent to service now, yes? How did we go from 10%, to 15%, to 18%, and now close to 20%?

[QuikSand]

From the NPR link:

- - -
The study found that 63 percent of blacks and 30 percent of whites didn't understand that the standard restaurant tip in the United States is 15 to 20 percent. The difference between how blacks and whites view tipping has serious ramifications for restaurants, including lawsuits and lost profits, Williams reports.
- - -

Once agaqin... I still think there is a substantial class element here, that goes beyond race. But the stat is pretty interesting, taken at face value.

[QuikSand]

fucking time stamp bug

[flere-imsaho]

NPR did a story on this a while ago, and cited a study that has some facts concerning the issue. I don't think it's the final word, but it's interesting fodder. Here's the link. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241)

[Fritz]

from a link off that PBS site

"All Things Considered, November 10, 1999 · Robert speaks with Charles Thompson, an African American man that has accused the Miami restaurant "Thai Toni" of unfairly adding gratuity to his check because of his race. Thompson and his wife Theresa White, an African American couple from Miami, Florida dined October 23 at "Thai Toni." Thompson says when they received their check, he found that the gratuity had already been added. When he checked with a white couple sitting nearby, he noticed that the same had not been done to their check. He complained to the owner, Hiromi "Toni" Takarada, who responded that he did that because "blacks don't tip well." The state of Florida is now suing "Thai Toni" for deceptive and unfair trade practices. "

[digamma]

Ok, I'll accept this. But I also agree with the stereotype that Arles pointed out, which annoyed my wife and I post-college and pre-kids.


Oh, I certainly agree it exists on the younger end as well.

[QuikSand]

Incidentally, here is the study (http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf) referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

[Arles]

From my experiences, it's much more class than race. I just don't think some people can calculate 15%.

*EXCEPT*

*STEREOTYPE ALERT*

A group of professional, black women - usually on lunch. They're overall not great tippers anway, but for whatever reason, they are generally AWFUL tippers to white women. They'll tip to any other groups, but not white girls. I've seen it many, many times.
Yeah, that was something my buddy Jesse said as well. There was once instance where a group of black and hispanic women use to come in for lunch. If he waited their tables he would get a good tip. If a friend of his (pretty white girl) waited on them, she often didn't get that much.

We had a discussion about this a few years back and I remember him saying how frustrating it was to tell the good tippers for non-regulars. There would guys dressed poorly that looked like they could barely afford their meal but would give him a 30% tip (he was a bartender) for the conversation. There were also wealthy guys from downtown rolling up in BMers that would barely tip 10%.

I have to think that personal experience matters. I wan't a great tipper in college, but I dated a waitress (before Farrah ;) ) and saw the crap she dealt with. Ever since then, I've gone out of my way to reward good service and be fair overall. I also have some friends (same financial class) that bitch and moan about a 15% tip and routinely slide in 5-10% when they think people aren't looking.

[Joe]

whats a tip?

[KWhit]

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher. However, it seemed that black people tended to tip me less. Maybe they just tip white servers less??? And maybe white patrons tip black servers less??? Not sure. Europeans, however, were the worst.

[Fritz]

Incidentally, here is the study (http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf) referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

thanks, Quik.

[sooner333]

You mean 20% is normal now, I was thought 15% was the status quo. And I will agree that college kids are bad tippers, I'm not that bad, but I mean, If I'm sitting down to a 7 dollar meal, I'll leave a buck. I guess that's 15%, but still, it's just a dollar. Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

[wade moore]

FWIW, I feel this is tied more to socio-economic class than race as well...

The overall thought I have is one that most of the good server's I have known have gone by - If you give good service to everyone, you're going to get more tips in general...

[wade moore]

rafini - Newport News


Williamsburg

[Fritz]

Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

when using a coupon or getting a discount, you should generally tip on the undiscounted value.

[QuikSand]

You mean 20% is normal now, I was thought 15% was the status quo. And I will agree that college kids are bad tippers, I'm not that bad, but I mean, If I'm sitting down to a 7 dollar meal, I'll leave a buck. I guess that's 15%, but still, it's just a dollar. Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

I have always used the "cab fare" rule of thumb. For ordinary service on a small bill (under ten bucks) I tip a dollar plus the breakage. If my bill for a cup or coffee and a danish was only $2.40, I will leave a $1.60 tip.

[Ksyrup]

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher. However, it seemed that black people tended to tip me less. Maybe they just tip white servers less??? And maybe white patrons tip black servers less??? Not sure. Europeans, however, were the worst.
For ease of calculation, I just do 20% of the check, then round the entire bill up or down to the nearest whole number (makes my checkbook entries easier). If service was better or poorer than average, than I would adjust to the nearest higher or lower dollar or half-dollar.

[Draft Dodger]

can't really comment on the race thing, as there are no minorities in NH. I can tell you that my mother is a bad tipper, but she's poor, so I think that might have something to do with it.

I remember when I was younger, I went to lunch with a friend and his mom - his mother put our waitress through the wringer and, I felt she did a good job coming through. I was MORTIFIED to see her calculate the tip at the end - if I remember she figured 10% exactly (as in, to the penny), before tax, of course, and I think she had also taken off money for her soup or drink that she didn't like...and left the tip all in change. after she left, I had to sneak a couple of bucks onto the table...I was thoroughly embarrassed. I have no qualms about leaving a bad tip if the service sucks, but really get annoyed with people who stiff good service.

[Huckleberry]

It's insane that the standard tip percentage can even theoretically go up. WTF? How does that make sense?

More importantly, why is it a percentage? Is it really more difficult to bring me a $25 plate than it is to bring me a $10 plate?

Dumb.

And for the record I tip according to what they deserve. I generally tip 15-20%. Routinely go as high as 40% for great service. If you suck, you will get a smaller tip than if you're good. Being nice to my kids, who are well-behaved, gets you a bump. Never noticing my water is empty gets you a deduction.

If you're rude and/or just awful with your service, you will get a $1 tip. I don't want you thinking I just forgot the tip.

[Fritz]

Most important, blacks were about half as likely as whites to say that the customary restaurant tip in the United States is 15 to 20 percent of the bill (37.4 percent for blacks, and 71.2 percent for whites).

15-20%, bucko.

[Blackadar]

Incidentally, here is the study (http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf) referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

Interesting study. It's an eye opener.

My whole take on the "conclusions" of the study is this...

LEARN THE F**KING NORMS OF THE COUNTRY!

If *in general* blacks don't tip, I wouldn't want to serve them. It ain't racism, it's a fact. If guys in blue shirts and chinos didn't generally tip, I wouldn't want to serve them either.

[wade moore]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=5596&highlight=tipping sheds some light on the European thing if I remember - in many European countries apparently they do not use the same model of tipping that we use...

[digamma]

Incidentally, here is the study (http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf) referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.
Seems to throw away the class comparison with a single sentence...that the results are "at least marginally significant" after controlling for age, sex, education, income, etc.

The learned behavior of tipping the study focuses on also would seem to be correlated to class--the piece notes that tipping disparity diminishes with increased dining frequency--but the study doesn't explore this relationship.

[Draft Dodger]

I'd also like to say that while I'm a good tipper, I don't like the fact that we do tip. I feel it's really less about rewarding good service and become a way for us to subsidize restaurant's payroll expenses. If I really think about it, I get a little annoyed that a server is paid almost nothing by the restaurant - all that responsibility is on the customer. Wish it wasn't that way, and I wonder, with all these big "neighborhood" chains if someday, someone isn't going to come up with a no-tipping gimmick...

[Blackadar]

It's insane that the standard tip percentage can even theoretically go up. WTF? How does that make sense?

More importantly, why is it a percentage? Is it really more difficult to bring me a $25 plate than it is to bring me a $10 plate?

Dumb.

Not dumb. You didn't think this over very well.

If you're paying $25 a plate, you usually have a greater expectation of good service. To accommodate that, the waitstaff will have less assigned tables so they can pay more attention to each table. Go to a place where it's $50-$75 a plate and your staff may have as many as 3 tables, or a group of 3 staff assigned to 3 tables, etc.

Go to a 5 star restaurant and you'll see there may be more staff than tables!

In addition, the time it takes to eat in a high-dollar restaurant is significantly higher than in a low dollar one. Eating at $50 a plate is an "event" and takes time, not an eat-and-run like at TGIFridays. So you have less patron turnover.

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

Therefore, it's a %.

[Huckleberry]

Not dumb. You didn't think this over very well.

If you're paying $25 a plate, you usually have a greater expectation of good service.
No I don't. I expect good service everywhere. 5-star restaurant, Whataburger, wherever.

To accommodate that, the waitstaff will have less assigned tables so they can pay more attention to each table. Go to a place where it's $50-$75 a plate and your staff may have as many as 3 tables, or a group of 3 staff assigned to 3 tables, etc.

Go to a 5 star restaurant and you'll see there may be more staff than tables!
You're convincing me I'm right. Now it turns out that not only are the plates more expensive, but the waitstaff's job is easier at fancier restaurants. Why should I be tipping them more again? I can see tipping the same amount. Less work but divided among more people.

In addition, the time it takes to eat in a high-dollar restaurant is significantly higher than in a low dollar one. Eating at $50 a plate is an "event" and takes time, not an eat-and-run like at TGIFridays. So you have less patron turnover.
Right, and I already paid for the event. Talk to your employer about your wage.

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

Therefore, it's a %.
You forgot the other option. Based on quality of service and time served. If I'm at a table longer I will certainly be willing to tip more.

[Ben E Lou]

The theories about clas sand tipping are interesting.


If I read this article < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/economics/analysis.html > correctly, the "black middle class" is the largest economic segment of their population. (which I was not expecting).Well, if you define middle class as $25,000-$50,000 household income, yeah. It would have *never* occurred to me to define "middle class" in that manner. I would have thought something more along the lines of $45K to $80K.

[hhiipp]

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

So why is it our duty to supplement their income, if they could make more money at a Bob Evans than at a $50-$75 why is it our fault they don't choose to work for Bob Evans?

[Ben E Lou]

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher.This goes back to my living-beyond-our-means comment about black cutlutre, I would think. It is highly likely that you had black customers who couldn't really afford to be there in the first place.

[Eaglesfan27]

1) I can confirm that it is a very wide stereotype throughout the resturant industry, from my experience.
2) In my person experience, the stereotype is not founded.
3) This stereotype does extend to other racial groups, but I believe the root cause is actually financial rather than racial.


In my own table waiting days, I would always be the guy who would step up to take a table that fit the stereotype. Sometimes I was burned, but a few times it really paid off. In my experience, you never really know how someone is going to tip, so I would *TRY* to treat everyone the same way.
I think 3 is key. When I was a poor college student, I was a horrible tipper. When I was a poor intern, I was a horrible tipper. Now that I'm doing better financially, I'm a very good tipper. I think the biggest driving force in general is socioeconomic class. Of course, there are exceptions of people in higher socioeconomic classes still tipping badly (I'll never forget when I was a valet and Charles Barkley stiffed me on a tip!) and people in lower socioeconomic classes tipping well.

[Eaglesfan27]

College kids stink as tippers, regardless of race. But I think that Quik's argument on financial class is a good one. I've done limited work for bars/restaurants (and have had numerous friends that have been more involved), but the general theme is that people in the middle to upper middle class tend to be the best tippers on average - regardless of other factors. When a friend of mine used to work at a restaurant outside the university area, he said the best tippers were guys from Raytheon that came down for lunches (no real difference between white, black and hispanic in that group). They were better than the wealthier professors and high-end "celebrities" on average.

His hypothesis was that many of them probably worked through college at some kind of service job and were more appreciative of his efforts because they could relate.
Interesting hypothesis. Do I tip well now because I survived on tips as a valet for a few summers? I never really thought about it.

[KWhit]

This goes back to my living-beyond-our-means comment about black cutlutre, I would think. It is highly likely that you had black customers who couldn't really afford to be there in the first place.
Quite possible.

[JeeberD]

I wonder, with all these big "neighborhood" chains if someday, someone isn't going to come up with a no-tipping gimmick...

Doubtful since at a middling restaurant like OG servers can easily make $10/hour during dinner and on occasion can get up to $15-$20/hour. No restaurant is going to pay their servers that much (they bitch about the ovetime we get on our $2.13/hour) and no decent server is going to work for a restaurant that only pays $7.00/hour when they can work at the restaurant next door and make twice that...

[JonInMiddleGA]

... customers who couldn't really afford to be there in the first place.

But that, in turn, would lead me back toward it being "class based" -- I'm not entirely sold on that either, but it would lean me that way.

I see the exact same thing at several area restaurants, all of which where I know at least some of the wait staff. Without fail, I regularly see local whites who are "stepping up" in their dining choice by hitting a $10-$15 entree place ... and then leave a $1 tip regardless of quality of service.

Somewhere up the thread a bit there's a reference to "dining out frequency" or something like that -- based on what I've observed for the past 10 years in this area, I believe that's a major factor in whether people tip appropriately. It's something that I've discussed a number of times with a variety of waiters/waitresses that I knew, they're unanimous in their belief that "not knowing any better" is responsible for as much as half the times they're under-tipped.

[Joe]

this whole conversation reminds me of the scene from Reservoir Dogs...


Mr. Pink: I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

[Blackadar]

No I don't. I expect good service everywhere. 5-star restaurant, Whataburger, wherever.

You're convincing me I'm right. Now it turns out that not only are the plates more expensive, but the waitstaff's job is easier at fancier restaurants. Why should I be tipping them more again? I can see tipping the same amount. Less work but divided among more people.

Right, and I already paid for the event. Talk to your employer about your wage.

You forgot the other option. Based on quality of service and time served. If I'm at a table longer I will certainly be willing to tip more.

1. If you expect the same level of service at a Whataburger vs. a Ruths Chris Steak House, you're delusional. Much like you don't expect the same level of baseball from a Single-A game vs. a MLB game. You're not going to get the same level of service from a Red Roof Inn vs. a $400/night hotel from the Front Desk. You're not going to get as good of a flight - service, food, seat, legroom - in coach as you are in first class. That's the way it is...you pay for what you get.

2. If you think the job is easier because you're waiting fewer tables in a fancy restaurant, you're again delusional. In a volume restaurant, you sling hash as fast as you can. In a fancy restaurant, you're responsible for ambiance, image, time spent on each table, etc. - which is part of the reason you go to a higher-dollar restaurant in the first place. Patrons are more demanding - and they should be. It's not easier by any means. That's like saying a good, high-end salesperson really isn't worth as much as a common telemarketer because they don't make as many phone calls. The jobs may seem similar, but they are markedly different.

3. I don't necessarily agree with the way the restaurant business is run that customers essentially pay the wages of the staff. But that's the business - and you know that as a customer going in. Restaurant owners will say that you're really paying for the food when you order and that the service is extra (tips). That's an entirely different discussion and does not justify you from not tipping.

Since you do know that's the way the business is run, you can either accept that and tip accordingly - or reject it. If you reject it, you can either go to restaurants (and get awful service since you're not paying for good service) or stay home. If you expect great service and you're not going to pay (tip) for it, then you're unreasonable. Whether you agree with the business model or not, THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[sovereignstar]

whats a tip?

Here's a tip. Don't talk during someone's backswing.

[MacroGuru]

The one thing that irks me is the auto 18 to 20% on groups of eight or more...Especially when I go out with my friends, we on average, if the service is great, tip 25 to 30%, and if they want to dictate their tip so be it. Most of the time, I discuss with the waitress beforehand, and explain that generally, she will get a larger tip from us if she doesn't add the "group rule" to our bill....

We have only had one waitress tell us no, and she provided great service, and tagged us for the 20%, I took a poll of everyone after, and almost all of us would have tipped 30%.

Now you can all tell me that I can go beyond what the rule is, but to me, they dictated their tip, and only value their service to me at 18 to 20% when I am with a larger group.

Remember this much. Went out one night to Dinner with a bunch of Co-Workers, my last gig working with Macromedia the bill ended up being around $2000, The greatest service we have ever received at a restruant, no one has met it yet. The wait staff was tipped $700....and no, we weren't to drunk, but everyone chipped in on the tip, and everyone complimented on the service, and one of our guys, even called the manager over, and commented on the quality of service.

Everytime the team went to the restruant after, and if that server and/or manager was there, they had EXCELLENT service and were well taken care of.

[rkmsuf]

How much to you tip a chambermaid?

[JeeberD]

shouldnt you expect the same level of service whether you order $30 worth of food vs. $100 worth of food in the same restaurant (assuming you have the same # of people in your party)?

The more food and drinks you order, the more work you're making your server do. Therefore, you tip more.

[Joe]

shouldnt you expect the same level of service whether you order $30 worth of food vs. $100 worth of food in the same restaurant (assuming you have the same # of people in your party)?

[cuervo72]

Not dumb. You didn't think this over very well.

If you're paying $25 a plate, you usually have a greater expectation of good service. To accommodate that, the waitstaff will have less assigned tables so they can pay more attention to each table. Go to a place where it's $50-$75 a plate and your staff may have as many as 3 tables, or a group of 3 staff assigned to 3 tables, etc.

You have a point, but I think you are missing what can be an obvious disparity in the price of entrees within a given restaurant. If I go to Red Lobster for lunch and order the unlimited soup, salad and buscuits (which I do often), that $6.50 or so is a lot cheaper than if I had a shrimp/lobster dish that cost $15-$20. And if I get refills, that soup and salad may require a lot more work on the part of the wait staff. I don't wish to punish them for my cheapness where it comes to the meal, so I'll do like Quik and add some to the normal percentage range.

[condors]

just a sterotype i know from back in the day.

Women=Bigger tips

we had regualars who would always tip women higher than men regardless of race. I don't know if it has changed by working in a place that served beer and alot of a younger crowd. I would routinely get 1 dollar tip, oh and you don't forget someone who spent 2 hours at a table spent over 100 bucks and leaves you 1 dollar. they would always get snotburgers the next time they came regardless of what table they sat at. Same people would tip Dawn 20 bucks.

also note to self if you are asked how you like woman's work, don't answer i tried it but i could keep up with your mom.

[Gary Gorski]

My wife used to work as a server in banquet halls and such for weddings and other gatherings - she said without fail that the people who tipped the best were middle class people and that waiting on the weathly people was generally terrible because they were so tight. Based on her experiences we tip very well when we go eat or even if we're at a function or a wedding we'll hand the server for our table $10 or so yet we see very few other people do that.

[OldGiants]

If you recieve a poor tip from a large, illiterate black man, be sure to let him know that tip was:

niggardly.

<!-- begin ahd4 --> nig·gard·ly http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dniggardly) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifrd-lhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif)
adj.
Grudging and petty in giving or spending.
Meanly small; scanty or meager: <cite>left the waiter a niggardly tip.</cite>

[QuikSand]

just a sterotype i know from back in the day.

Women=Bigger tips

Perhaps you didn't hear that one correctly?

[Gary Gorski]

shouldnt you expect the same level of service whether you order $30 worth of food vs. $100 worth of food in the same restaurant (assuming you have the same # of people in your party)?

I dunno - who does the dealership pay more attention to? The guy looking to buy a Ford Expedition or the guy looking to buy a Focus? People who spend more money get more attention paid to them - its just how it is and I don't think you can expect different. If your tip is going to be $20 or $6 are you really going to spend as much time with the $6 as the $20?

[QuikSand]

shouldnt you expect the same level of service whether you order $30 worth of food vs. $100 worth of food in the same restaurant (assuming you have the same # of people in your party)?

We already have evidence that a sizable share of Americans can't keep up with the concept of a flat percentage. You (of all people) think it makes any sense at all to add multi-tiered, complex calculations into this?

[Klinglerware]

If you recieve a poor tip from a large, illiterate black man, be sure to let him know that tip was:

niggardly.


Yeah, I remember that someone in DC government used the word (in correct context and usage) and caused a firestorm...

[JeeberD]

You have a point, but I think you are missing what can be an obvious disparity in the price of entrees within a given restaurant. If I go to Red Lobster for lunch and order the unlimited soup, salad and buscuits (which I do often), that $6.50 or so is a lot cheaper than if I had a shrimp/lobster dish that cost $15-$20. And if I get refills, that soup and salad may require a lot more work on the part of the wait staff. I don't wish to punish them for my cheapness where it comes to the meal, so I'll do like Quik and add some to the normal percentage range.

I wish everyone realized that they are working their server more when they order the unlimited soup and salad. That shit is the bane of servers everywhere...

[Buzzbee]

My tipping rules:

I generally tip around 20%. Everytime my beer glass gets empty, you lose 5%. If I have to ask you twice for a beer, you get $1. If my glass is never empty the entire night, you'll get roughly 25%.

If I'm not drinking beer, I generally tip 20% and adjust downward to 10-15% depending on if the service was "okay" or "moderately bad". Piss me off and you get a penny.

[Huckleberry]

1. If you expect the same level of service at a Whataburger vs. a Ruths Chris Steak House, you're delusional. Much like you don't expect the same level of baseball from a Single-A game vs. a MLB game. You're not going to get the same level of service from a Red Roof Inn vs. a $400/night hotel from the Front Desk. You're not going to get as good of a flight - service, food, seat, legroom - in coach as you are in first class. That's the way it is...you pay for what you get.
Completely untrue. Most of the best waiters I've ever had were at your generic chain restaurant. It's really not that difficult. Then again, I consider politeness a requirement from any service respresentative. Be polite, pay attention, don't intrude. Those 3 simple rules is really all you need to be good at waiting.

And, for the record, I have received excellent service at Whataburger, and atrocious service at steakhouses.

2. If you think the job is easier because you're waiting fewer tables in a fancy restaurant, you're again delusional. In a volume restaurant, you sling hash as fast as you can. In a fancy restaurant, you're responsible for ambiance, image, time spent on each table, etc. - which is part of the reason you go to a higher-dollar restaurant in the first place. Patrons are more demanding - and they should be. It's not easier by any means. That's like saying a good, high-end salesperson really isn't worth as much as a common telemarketer because they don't make as many phone calls. The jobs may seem similar, but they are markedly different.
I'm starting to think you're the delusional one. Delusional as to your relative importance to a meal's enjoyability. For example, you're giving me the impression that you're an intruder. Asking me how I'm doing every 3 minutes, that kind of thing.

3. I don't necessarily agree with the way the restaurant business is run that customers essentially pay the wages of the staff. But that's the business - and you know that as a customer going in. Restaurant owners will say that you're really paying for the food when you order and that the service is extra (tips). That's an entirely different discussion and does not justify you from not tipping.

Since you do know that's the way the business is run, you can either accept that and tip accordingly - or reject it. If you reject it, you can either go to restaurants (and get awful service since you're not paying for good service) or stay home. If you expect great service and you're not going to pay (tip) for it, then you're unreasonable. Whether you agree with the business model or not, THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not sure if you read too well, but I'll review. I tip according to service. If you do a very good job, you're looking at more than 20%. A fantastic job, you're looking at 40%. If you suck, you will get a very small tip.

My argument is that the system is stupid. I never said I don't participate in it.

[Dutch]

The stereotype is alive and well in California. My wife was a waitress there in Manhattan Beach (pretty upscale beach town) and the black customers generally were bad tippers. She's got a few horror stories to back up the perceived stereotype.

One interesting point was that the Air Force has a large contingent down the street in El Segundo (LA Air Force base where I was stationed for 8 years). Air Force officers were generally shunned in favor of Air Force enlisted because the stereotype was that the enlisted tipped better.

So it may be more of a cultural thing vs. a financial thing.

[Fritz]

I wish everyone realized that they are working their server more when they order the unlimited soup and salad. That shit is the bane of servers everywhere...


How hard is it for you you bring me 2 bowls of soup, refresh the salad once, and manage to keep my coffee fresh? if you are like every other server I have had at OG in the past month it must be a monumental hardship.

[JonInMiddleGA]

How hard is it for you you bring me 2 bowls of soup, refresh the salad once, and manage to keep my coffee fresh? if you are like every other server I have had at OG in the past month it must be a monumental hardship.


Now I know you & I live in different areas with different scenarios -- here, Olive Garden is like the hardest place to get into without waiting 1-2 hours, and the service is typically decent at worst, spot-on pretty frequently.

[Franklinnoble]

I don't think we've really addressed the core issue.

WHY would black people tip less?

[rkmsuf]

I don't think we've really addressed the core issue.

WHY would black people tip less?

The man.

[Arles]

The worst tipper I knew was a guy I used to work with. He was a white guy - middle class. He used to put a stack of dimes on the table (couple bucks worth) and everytime the waiter made a mistake, he would take a few off.

He was a real ass and all it really got him was piss poor service on places he frequented.

[Fritz]

Now I know you & I live in different areas with different scenarios -- here, Olive Garden is like the hardest place to get into without waiting 1-2 hours, and the service is typically decent at worst, spot-on pretty frequently.

OG is hard to get into here as well. I have to go to lunch at 11 for immediate seating. Hard to imagine why it stays so busy with a new Johnny Carino's around the corner that is never full.

I mean, does anyone seriously think OG is even moderatly good I-food?

[Fritz]

The worst tipper I knew was a guy I used to work with. He was a white guy - middle class. He used to put a stack of dimes on the table (couple bucks worth) and everytime the waiter made a mistake, he would take a few off.

He was a real ass and all it really got him was piss poor service on places he frequented.

I can't imagine this guy was able to date the same woman twice.

[Arles]

You're convincing me I'm right. Now it turns out that not only are the plates more expensive, but the waitstaff's job is easier at fancier restaurants. Why should I be tipping them more again? I can see tipping the same amount. Less work but divided among more people.
I disagree here. If I am going to a $100 a plate place, it's for a nice occassion with my wife. I would like to stay longer, have better service and generally a real nice overall experience. This is not in the same realm as my expectations for Chillis on a Thursday night. So, if someone meets them and makes my night even more enjoyable with their dimeanor, that's value to me.

To be honest, I don't really care if I get a sourpuss at Chillis when I get a burger and a coke. But it would really damper the night and the occassion if I got an ass for a server at a $100 a plate dinner. So, I think that having nice restaurants hire pleasant people should be rewarded as it helps make the atmosphere more enjoyable.

[JeeberD]

How hard is it for you you bring me 2 bowls of soup, refresh the salad once, and manage to keep my coffee fresh? if you are like every other server I have had at OG in the past month it must be a monumental hardship.


Two bowls of soup and two bowls of salad isn't too much trouble most of the time. However, we've got other tables than your as well that we have to greet (within 30 seconds), get drinks for, take orders for, get salad and bread for, and run food out to (other servers tables as well as our own). As long as you don't expect *instant* refills everything should be fine.

And then you get those people who suck down their soup in two minutes flat and expect another bowl right away, and when it takes a couple of minutes because we're getting stuff for our other tables as well (consolidation is key in this business) they get pissy.

Just realize that most likely you're not the only table that your server is taking care of...

[JeeberD]

The worst tipper I knew was a guy I used to work with. He was a white guy - middle class. He used to put a stack of dimes on the table (couple bucks worth) and everytime the waiter made a mistake, he would take a few off.

He was a real ass and all it really got him was piss poor service on places he frequented.

Wasn't that an episode of Third Rock from the Sun?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I mean, does anyone seriously think OG is even moderatly good I-food?

You may have brought up an interesting distinction here -- I don't really think OG is particular good Italian food, but I do think it's an above-average meal-out. I like the presentation, the atmosphere is comfortable (when you can get in), on the whole it's an enjoyable experience usually.

But based on food quality alone? Nah, it ain't all that.

[Arles]

Wasn't that an episode of Third Rock from the Sun?
Not sure, this guy wasn't very creative, though. So, it wouldn't surprise me if he ripped it off a TV show. As to the comment on dates, he was already married so I guess he had no one to impress. I only had lunch with him twice (in a larger party), but it was 2 times too many.

As an aside, he would end up providing the smallest tip when being the most castigating to the servers out of everyone. We eventually stopped going to lunch with him as his presence hurt all of our service (regardless of how the rest of us tipped).

[Fritz]

Two bowls of soup and two bowls of salad isn't too much trouble most of the time. However, we've got other tables than your as well that we have to greet (within 30 seconds), get drinks for, take orders for, get salad and bread for, and run food out to (other servers tables as well as our own). As long as you don't expect *instant* refills everything should be fine.

And then you get those people who suck down their soup in two minutes flat and expect another bowl right away, and when it takes a couple of minutes because we're getting stuff for our other tables as well (consolidation is key in this business) they get pissy.

Just realize that most likely you're not the only table that your server is taking care of...

and that is why one pays, and tips, more at a place where they have oodles of staff with a small scope of responsibility. (to Huckleberry)

[HomerJSimpson]

I've got a solution to this:

1) End tipping
2) Add 15-20% item cost
3) PAY YOUR OWN EMPLOYEES!!!!!

[Karlifornia]

I hear that no self-respecting (or mother-respecting) Italian can ever, ever eat at the Olive Garden. That would be like living in Vegas and driving to out to Cache Creek to gamble.

[HomerJSimpson]

Just realize that most likely you're not the only table that your server is taking care of...

Ummmm....why is it my fault that OG doesn't hire enough wait-staff? I generally tip very well when I get an "all-you-can-eat" type deal, but if the service sucks, the tip drops and I generally will not be back for a long time.

[Klinglerware]

I've got a solution to this:

1) End tipping
2) Add 15-20% item cost
3) PAY YOUR OWN EMPLOYEES!!!!!

The flipside to this is Europe, where this system is in place. Because the waitstaff gets paid either way, service in Europe can be piss poor compared to America...

[Joe]

The more food and drinks you order, the more work you're making your server do. Therefore, you tip more.

I'm not saying more quantity of anything or more work, just more expensive. Its not any more difficult to bring a steak on a plate to someone than it is to bring a muffin on a plate.

[JeeberD]

Ummmm....why is it my fault that OG doesn't hire enough wait-staff? I generally tip very well when I get an "all-you-can-eat" type deal, but if the service sucks, the tip drops and I generally will not be back for a long time.

So what, you want one server per table and you want that server to be standing right next to you all the time making sure you're never in need of anything? That's utter bullshit.

Oh, and I'm glad that you tip well at all-you-can-eat joints. Most people don't...

[HomerJSimpson]

The flipside to this is Europe, where this system is in place. Because the waitstaff gets paid either way, service in Europe can be piss poor compared to America...

And that is different than America how exactly? "Piss poor" would be a step-up from the service I've seen in most places.

[Blackadar]

And that is different than America how exactly? "Piss poor" would be a step-up from the service I've seen in most places.

Guess you haven't been in Europe to eat then.

[NoMyths]

The other night my girlfriend and I ate at Applebees (bleh, but her choice). Due to a collosal fuckup in the kitchen, everybody's orders were collosally late, wrong, etc. Both the waitress and eventually the manager were making the rounds, trying to keep folks happy. Most left, though. My GF and I stuck it out, and were "rewarded" with having the meal comped. We still ended up leaving ten bucks for the waitress, since she was trying her best under very difficult circumstances.

[cuervo72]

Applebees has pretty good salads.

[Young Drachma]

I know my friends and I have always been good tippers. I know for me, it's just always been about good service. Plus, when I got older I had friends who had worked as waiters or whatever and so, I felt like after that - even if I was alone - that unless the person was just useless, that tipping well was something worth doing.

I figure if you can't afford to tip, you ought not eat out as much. But I know that's not the logic for some folk.

I know my parents weren't bad tippers either and we were always solidly middle class, same for my grandparents. So, while I'm sure there is probably some confirmation of this "stereotype" or whatever, I know that - in my experience - it's anything but.

Just felt the need to say that...

[Klinglerware]

My girlfriend and I also had this discussion. She thinks that I tend to tip more than she does. But she also notices that she gets better service from waitstaff when she is dining out with me than when she is eating alone.

Do waitpeople really work less hard for single women dining alone? Do waitpeople think that the "unmarried couple on a date" is a potential good prospect for higher tipping? Something else going on?

[Raven]

I agree with JeeberD here, I can tell he works in the business.

Obviously the reason restaurants don't pay their servers big hourly fees is so the business makes themselves more money. But also, if you pay your servers big hourly fees, where is their incentive to give the customers anything more than average service?

[Raven]

Do waitpeople really work less hard for single women dining alone? Do waitpeople think that the "unmarried couple on a date" is a potential good prospect for higher tipping? Something else going on?


It's not single women, it single person tables (known as one-tops). They generally get a sandwich and a drink, and their bill is less than $10, and usually leave like $2-$3. On top of that, they hold up the table for 30 minutes to an hour, and cost you to actually lose money (because that table could have been seated with 2-4 people instead).

If you dine by yourself, don't expect 'great' service.

[QuikSand]

Wow. The end of page two, and while we've had a few sidetracks and a few zingers along the way, this thread still has yet to run completely off the tracks and into oblivion. Can't say I saw it coming.

[Joe]

I agree with JeeberD here, I can tell he works in the business.

Obviously the reason restaurants don't pay their servers big hourly fees is so the business makes themselves more money. But also, if you pay your servers big hourly fees, where is their incentive to give the customers anything more than average service?

I'd say the incentive would be to keep their jobs.

[Raven]

I'd say the incentive would be to keep their jobs.

Are you reading from work? Maybe you are not, but a lot of people here are. Where is their incentive to keep their jobs?

[cuervo72]

Wow. The end of page two, and while we've had a few sidetracks and a few zingers along the way, this thread still has yet to run completely off the tracks and into oblivion. Can't say I saw it coming.

You haven't even said a word about Olive Garden yet.

[QuikSand]

You haven't even said a word about Olive Garden yet.

You know where I stand on that, I didn't see a need to pile on. Very catholic of me, I know.

[Franklinnoble]

Wow. The end of page two, and while we've had a few sidetracks and a few zingers along the way, this thread still has yet to run completely off the tracks and into oblivion. Can't say I saw it coming.

We're slipping. Sorry.

[lurker]

I don't know if the restaurants would make more money by paying the waitstaff more and eliminating tips. I remember reading a study about the supply and demand curves of eating out as it related to this issue (eliminating tips). Basically, in order to maintain the same level of patronage, restaurants would have to raise their prices, so you would essentially pay the same amount as if it were a tip. The market should in theory always return to the equilibrium point.

[Huckleberry]

So, I think that having nice restaurants hire pleasant people should be rewarded as it helps make the atmosphere more enjoyable.
I take it, then, that you tip the manager on your way out of the restaurant. You know, for his solid hiring practices.

[Joe]

Are you reading from work? Maybe you are not, but a lot of people here are. Where is their incentive to keep their jobs?

Many people could offer customers just average service. I'm sure if wages in the service industry were improved and average service turned out to become the norm, managers would have no problem in replacing those workers, since they offer nothing special.

[Glengoyne]

...

Go to a 5 star restaurant and you'll see there may be more staff than tables!
...

I'll never forget my first experience with this. As soon as something was finished, it was removed. If you pollished of a piece of bread, someone showed up with a selection of bread choices. I was truly astonished with the level of service.

My sisters all recently took a trip to New Orleans, and had a lot of fun with the level of service they were getting. One of them got up to use the restroom, and one of my sisters noted that a busboy quietly slipped up to the table and replaced her napkin with a fresh and neatly folded one. The others at the table didn't even notice him. So they pretty much all took turns slipping off to the restroom, just to watch the guy sneak up with a fresh napkin. They tipped extraordinarilly though.

[st.cronin]

I take it, then, that you tip the manager on your way out of the restaurant. You know, for his solid hiring practices.

Managers typically make a percentage of the profits. His 'tip' is built in to the price of your food/beverage.

[JeeberD]

I take it, then, that you tip the manager on your way out of the restaurant. You know, for his solid hiring practices.

If the resaurant does well the manager will undoubtedly get a nice bonus. So Arles' continuing patronage does help out the manager for his solid hiring practices...

[Raven]

Many people could offer customers just average service. I'm sure if wages in the service industry were improved and average service turned out to become the norm, managers would have no problem in replacing those workers, since they offer nothing special.


Have you ever been to Walmart? Is their service great? No, because by giving them an hourly fee you limit how much they care about sales, because it doesn't put any more money in to their own pockets.

[condors]

do places that automagicly put your tip on the bill bother any one else?

I worked in the industry and i always tip well (even with bad service i will go min 20%)

I think deliver drivers can get really screwed, hi we are putting 38 people on the same delivery so we only get 1 delivery charge and please wait while each person take his time coming to get food and looks at you like you have 3 heads when you want the entire bill paid at once. Of course these people say the menu says 4.85 and proceed to hand you 4.85 cents umm sir there is tax if you look at the bill, also there is a delivery charge and heck a tip would be nice, they order sandwhichs but don't give names or phone numbers for the sandwhiches than whoever ordered it better actually pay for it

nothing like the person ordering it refusing to come to the lobby and everyone else wants there sandwhich, i am sorry this order is for Beth as soon as Beth pays for it i am sure she would be glad to give you, the sandwhich you asked her to order for you

[sterlingice]

sachmo brings up an interesting point - I believe that many servers size up their patrons, and adjust their service according to their stereotypes.
Defintely. I've been the subject of bad service on numerous occasions because I'm just a college age guy who wears a t-shirt and jeans. It's particularly bad at sports bar or other "American food" type places. Almost every time I'm at a place like that, I get crap service while I see others getting much better so I tip accordingly. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in those cases.

SI

[sterlingice]

I have to think that personal experience matters. I wan't a great tipper in college, but I dated a waitress (before Farrah ;) ) and saw the crap she dealt with. Ever since then, I've gone out of my way to reward good service and be fair overall. I also have some friends (same financial class) that bitch and moan about a 15% tip and routinely slide in 5-10% when they think people aren't looking. I think there's a huge element of this involved. I think if everyone were forced into working retail, fast food, or food service for at least a few months of their life, the world would be a lot more courteous place.

do places that automagicly put your tip on the bill bother any one else?

I worked in the industry and i always tip well (even with bad service i will go min 20%)
I'm poor, just out of college but I tend to do 20%. If I get bad service (and you have to be bad for me to consider you "bad") then you get your 10% or whatever (a group of four of us left a penny once but that was blatantly rude service). I think if you give someone 20% who does a bad job, it just encourages them to not care about the service they give you the next time you come in.


SI

[Schmidty]

Haven't read most of this thread, but when I was a waiter, I found that it was less of a race/class thing, and more of a culture thing. The worst tippers, white or black, were hip-hop people, people who went through the depression or WW2, and strangely enough "conservative/poor" people.

Of course there were exceptions on occasion, but those 3 groups seemed to tip a LOT less a lot more often.

[Buzzbee]

do places that automagicly put your tip on the bill bother any one else?

Not me.


I worked in the industry and i always tip well (even with bad service i will go min 20%)

Why? Why on earth would you reward bad service with a 20% tip?

[Fritz]

It's not single women, it single person tables (known as one-tops). They generally get a sandwich and a drink, and their bill is less than $10, and usually leave like $2-$3. On top of that, they hold up the table for 30 minutes to an hour, and cost you to actually lose money (because that table could have been seated with 2-4 people instead).

If you dine by yourself, don't expect 'great' service.

I expect the same service as I would get if I were dining with others. If not, it will be reflected in the tip. While my tips can be generous, I feel no obligation to tip at all.

[st.cronin]

do places that automagicly put your tip on the bill bother any one else?

In certain cases it's understandable. Say there's a bunch of teenagers on their way to the prom...

I've never had it done to me when I'm out though. If it were, I wouldn't mind, but if the service were poor I'd definitely say something.

[gstelmack]

What about taking kids to a restaurant? My tipping went through the roof when I started taking a 6/12/18 month old out to dinner. I was tipping 10 or 15% on top of the normal tip just for the cleanup...

[st.cronin]

I expect the same service as I would get if I were dining with others. If not, it will be reflected in the tip. While my tips can be generous, I feel no obligation to tip at all.

That's just absurd. In my state, servers make 2.15 an hour. To not tip, IMO, the service would have to be egregiously bad. As in, the server quit mid-shift and the manager had to serve the food.

[condors]

Well the waiter/waitress will have to pay taxes on tips not recieved, if there is a school dance, you can work you butt off with little reward and maybe i was unprofessional when i don't get tipped but i would make several hundered bucks in tips on a friday/saturday with the regulars if i was busting it(i for that money as a college kid your darn right i am busting it)

[Buzzbee]

That's just absurd. In my state, servers make 2.15 an hour. To not tip, IMO, the service would have to be egregiously bad. As in, the server quit mid-shift and the manager had to serve the food.
Why should the fact that the server makes $2.15 have ANY bearing on whether or not I leave a tip?

The tip is commensurate with the service, not with the wage the server makes.

[st.cronin]

Why should the fact that the server makes $2.15 have ANY bearing on whether or not I leave a tip?

The tip is commensurate with the service, not with the wage the server makes.

If you feel no obligation to leave a tip, go to a deli or someplace like Noodles or stay home. Sitting down and ordering food means you are obligated to leave a tip.

[Noop]

Maybe its me but I say they get bad tips because they serve poorly.

[Huckleberry]

Managers typically make a percentage of the profits. His 'tip' is built in to the price of your food/beverage.If the resaurant does well the manager will undoubtedly get a nice bonus. So Arles' continuing patronage does help out the manager for his solid hiring practices...You both missed the point on this one.

You merely reinforced my point that such considerations should have little to do with the calculation of how much to tip the waitperson. Which is what I was asking Arles about.

He implied that you should give a higher tip to reward the restaurant for hiring good people. That's what didn't make sense. You give a higher tip to reward the waitperson for good service.

You pay the higher flat fee (i.e., food/drink cost per item) for the "classier" restaurant.

[Buzzbee]

If you feel no obligation to leave a tip, go to a deli or someplace like Noodles or stay home. Sitting down and ordering food means you are obligated to leave a tip.
The only time I know of where I'm obligated to tip is when the policy of the restaurant states that the gratuity will be included.

If the server feels no obligation to provide good service, I feel no obligation to tip.

A tip is a reward for good service, not a fee for bringing plates.

[cuervo72]

What about taking kids to a restaurant? My tipping went through the roof when I started taking a 6/12/18 month old out to dinner. I was tipping 10 or 15% on top of the normal tip just for the cleanup...

Yeah, imagine if one of them had the tendency to throw up every now and then...

-----------------

How is $2.15/hr even legal? Doesn't the minimum wage apply??

[JeeberD]

How is $2.15/hr even legal? Doesn't the minimum wage apply??

Nope. I'm getting $2.13/hour when I wait tables. Now, supposedly if we combined our tips and our hourly pitance and we still don't make minimum wage the restaurant is supposed to cover the difference. Luckily, I've never had to worry about that...

[NAIWF]

Even though I'm Puerto Rican, I'll try and answer the "why" question addressed earlier. As someone who has a lot of white friends, but is also part of a predominantly Black co-ed service fraternity, I have noticed distinctly different levels of service in the same restaurant depending on what color the people I'm with happen to have. There really is no other difference I can think of since most of my friends are between 20-25, and none of them give off the appearance of wealth.

Basically, if I go to a restaurant with a handful of my white friends the service tends to be better, the wait staff is more attentive and in general I think it's because the expectation is that the server will get a nice tip for doing an above average job. I could go to the same restaurant the next day with my fraternity brothers and the service won't be as good, and we will frequently have to wait longer because the perception is that we're a bunch of college kids who don't look like we will tip well.

There have been times where the service has been so bad that I've walked out and told people that I will never eat at a specific establishment again as a result of what happened. This happened two months ago when the most recent pledge class crossed over and it took 25 minutes for the server to come ask us if we wanted any drinks. Said drinks didn't arrive for another 15-20 minutes, and by that point I left. For comparitive purposes I had been at the same place exactly a week earlier at a similarly busy time of night, and we were eating our entrees within 30 minutes of the time we were seated.

I think it's one of those deals where the server gets tipped less because they assume they will not be well compensated based on assumptions that may or may not be true, and then feel that that gives them the right to do a half assed job. I know there have been plenty of times where a server used the mandatory group tip as a crutch to be a horrible server. Why bother working hard if you're getting 18-20% of the bill either way right? Having said that some of my frat brothers ARE lousy tippers, but I don't think everyone should be painted with a broad stroke and then given less than adequate service because of our skin color.

Sorry for the lenghty reply, but it is a subject that irritates me quite a bit.

[Blackadar]

If you feel no obligation to leave a tip, go to a deli or someplace like Noodles or stay home. Sitting down and ordering food means you are obligated to leave a tip.

Even I, the last of the big tippers (it's a joke folks), would disagree with this one. I am not obligated to leave a tip. I am socially obligated to leave a tip provided that the service is acceptable. There's a big difference.

If my food is served cold (and it's not supposed to be), you're not getting a tip. To me, that's inexcusable - it was hot when it was cooked, which means it's sitting there getting cold because the server isn't doing their job.

So there have been rare times I have left nothing or $.01. There have been a couple of times where I got up without paying for my soda (never alcohol), told the manager that this was unacceptable and walked out. But it's very rare to have that happen.

[JeeberD]

If my food is served cold (and it's not supposed to be), you're not getting a tip. To me, that's inexcusable - it was hot when it was cooked, which means it's sitting there getting cold because the server isn't doing their job.

Not necessarily, Blackie. I've seen many time in my restaurant where the kitchen will make one item, throw it in the window (or keep it down on their side of the window) and then take five minutes to get the rest of the order out. At that point the server has to decide which is going to piss the guest off more, getting food that might be a bit cold or telling them that they'll have to wait ten more minutes because you're getting their food remade...

[Buzzbee]

Even I, the last of the big tippers (it's a joke folks), would disagree with this one. I am not obligated to leave a tip. I am socially obligated to leave a tip provided that the service is acceptable. There's a big difference.

If my food is served cold (and it's not supposed to be), you're not getting a tip. To me, that's inexcusable - it was hot when it was cooked, which means it's sitting there getting cold because the server isn't doing their job.

So there have been rare times I have left nothing or $.01. There have been a couple of times where I got up without paying for my soda (never alcohol), told the manager that this was unacceptable and walked out. But it's very rare to have that happen.
*looks out of window to see if sky is falling*

Yup, I agree with Blackie.

[Joe]

Have you ever been to Walmart? Is their service great? No, because by giving them an hourly fee you limit how much they care about sales, because it doesn't put any more money in to their own pockets.

Never been there. I don't support big businesses like theirs.

[Fritz]

That's just absurd. In my state, servers make 2.15 an hour. To not tip, IMO, the service would have to be egregiously bad. As in, the server quit mid-shift and the manager had to serve the food.

I agree that it would need to be bad to not tip at all, though not quite as bad as you suggest.

If you feel no obligation to leave a tip, go to a deli or someplace like Noodles or stay home. Sitting down and ordering food means you are obligated to leave a tip.

Sitting down and ordering food means I am obligated to pay for the food (unless it is bad food). Tips are based on the quality of service. I mean, they are called gratuities, not server fees. Why in the world would someone tip poor service?

[Arles]

I take it, then, that you tip the manager on your way out of the restaurant. You know, for his solid hiring practices.
Quite a reach. No, I prefer to tip the wait staff well at nice restaurants that take time to make it a better experience for me. At a Chilis or Friday's, I will normally tip between 15 and 20% regardless of how they do (provided they don't royally screw something up).

I guess it comes down to expectations. If I got to a nice place, I expect a better dimeanor and better service and I tip accordingly. At Applebees, I don't expect (nor ask for) much so I give them the normal 15-20%.

My hope is that the better servers will go to the nicer restaurants and that's why I tip the way I do. Again, if you are paying $150-$200 for dinner, the last thing you want is bad service. I can deal with an unfilled drink if I'm only having a $7 burger as I will probably leave within 20 minutes. At a nicer place, I may stay for a few hours. That also impacts the tips.

[Joe]

if its an obligation to leave a tip, it better damn well be included in the bill

[st.cronin]

Even I, the last of the big tippers (it's a joke folks), would disagree with this one. I am not obligated to leave a tip. I am socially obligated to leave a tip provided that the service is acceptable. There's a big difference.

If my food is served cold (and it's not supposed to be), you're not getting a tip. To me, that's inexcusable - it was hot when it was cooked, which means it's sitting there getting cold because the server isn't doing their job.

So there have been rare times I have left nothing or $.01. There have been a couple of times where I got up without paying for my soda (never alcohol), told the manager that this was unacceptable and walked out. But it's very rare to have that happen.

I have an ethics guide here which explains it thus: 10% before tax is the standard tip. If the service is good, then 15% - exceptional service gets 20% or more. There is NO provision for less than 10 %. Even poor service demands a living wage.

The rule of thumb for eating out is if you're dissatisfied with your service, SAY something - if the manager doesn't fix it, don't return to that restaurant. Don't punish the server. How is he/she supposed to know your food isn't hot if you don't say something? You don't know that he/she was sitting around while your food got cold - it could very well have been the kitchen's fault.

Also, not paying for a soda, while it may very little impact on the restaurant's bottom line, is extremely unethical, unless you didn't drink the soda because it was flat/warm/etc. If you enjoyed that soda, you should pay for it.

[Blackadar]

Even though I'm Puerto Rican, I'll try and answer the "why" question addressed earlier. As someone who has a lot of white friends, but is also part of a predominantly Black co-ed service fraternity, I have noticed distinctly different levels of service in the same restaurant depending on what color the people I'm with happen to have. There really is no other difference I can think of since most of my friends are between 20-25, and none of them give off the appearance of wealth.

Basically, if I go to a restaurant with a handful of my white friends the service tends to be better, the wait staff is more attentive and in general I think it's because the expectation is that the server will get a nice tip for doing an above average job. I could go to the same restaurant the next day with my fraternity brothers and the service won't be as good, and we will frequently have to wait longer because the perception is that we're a bunch of college kids who don't look like we will tip well.

There have been times where the service has been so bad that I've walked out and told people that I will never eat at a specific establishment again as a result of what happened. This happened two months ago when the most recent pledge class crossed over and it took 25 minutes for the server to come ask us if we wanted any drinks. Said drinks didn't arrive for another 15-20 minutes, and by that point I left. For comparitive purposes I had been at the same place exactly a week earlier at a similarly busy time of night, and we were eating our entrees within 30 minutes of the time we were seated.

I think it's one of those deals where the server gets tipped less because they assume they will not be well compensated based on assumptions that may or may not be true, and then feel that that gives them the right to do a half assed job. I know there have been plenty of times where a server used the mandatory group tip as a crutch to be a horrible server. Why bother working hard if you're getting 18-20% of the bill either way right? Having said that some of my frat brothers ARE lousy tippers, but I don't think everyone should be painted with a broad stroke and then given less than adequate service because of our skin color.

Sorry for the lenghty reply, but it is a subject that irritates me quite a bit.

It's the chicken/egg thing. You seem to see racism. I see human nature.

According to that study, it seems pretty definitive that - in general - blacks don't leave "acceptable" tips moreso than whites. By a very large margin.

This then conditions their servers provide less than great service to blacks because "it won't matter anyway". While this is NOT correct for any given party of blacks, it IS correct overall.

This then becomes a nasty cycle, because blacks become justified in leaving less than acceptable tips due to poor service. Which reinforces that blacks don't tip adequately, meaning that servers don't try as hard, meaning the service gets worse, meaning the tips go down yet again, etc.

It may not be right, but it is human nature.

[rkmsuf]

I really don't stress out about it. Some people sit there and critique and rate every little thing. I can't stand that. My simple rule of thumb is if it's noticiable that something is making the meal worse without nitpicking then I'd alter a tip.

Stuff like waiting forever to place an order or rudeness.

I mean if our server makes a mistake of bringing the wrong drink or forgetting a new fork or something and I have to ask again it's not that big a deal. We are all people and as long as the person isn't being a jerk it's fine.

[Fritz]

Webster's Definitions
Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&-'tü-&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
InflectedForm(s): plural -ities
Date:1540
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : TIP

[Arles]

He implied that you should give a higher tip to reward the restaurant for hiring good people. That's what didn't make sense. You give a higher tip to reward the waitperson for good service.
I think this is a distinction without much of a difference. If I come away from a meal with the opinion that a waiter that I met for the first time was "good people", chances are he gave pretty good service. ;)

My point is that I expect a much higher quality of service at a real nice place and tip more when I get it. Of course, if I get piss poor service at a real nice place, I will often complain and leave a low tip. So, it goes both ways.

At a place like Fridays, I have low expectations. So, if the person doesn't drop my food on the floor, insult my mother or spill a soda all over me, they normally get the custimary 15%. Then again, I don't reward "great" service as well since I will only be there for a few minutes and won't spend much time basking in their "flair".

[hhiipp]

I have an ethics guide here which explains it thus: 10% before tax is the standard tip. If the service is good, then 15% - exceptional service gets 20% or more. There is NO provision for less than 10 %. Even poor service demands a living wage.
It may not be 'ethical' according to your little handbook, but if service or the food sucks then the server does not deserve a tip. You tip to show your appreciation of their good, hard work, you don't OWE it to them to tip if their service or attitude is shitty.

[condors]

i worked for 1.65 an hour and was automatticly taxxed 7.5% (this was back in 88 i believe) If i don't get a 7.5% tip and you don't explain why (i would ask) you go in the memory bank. If i see you again expect to get what you pay for, plus extras at no charge

[rkmsuf]

It may not be 'ethical' according to your little handbook, but if service or the food sucks then the server does not deserve a tip. You tip to show your appreciation of their good, hard work, you don't OWE it to them to tip if their service or attitude is shitty.

Except if your party is 8 or more. You are at their mercy then.

[rkmsuf]

i worked for 1.65 an hour and was automatticly taxxed 7.5% (this was back in 88 i believe) If i don't get a 7.5% tip and you don't explain why (i would ask) you go in the memory bank. If i see you again expect to get what you pay for, plus extras at no charge

Quick story...out to Applebees with family...6 people. Lady serving us was a complete dick. I mean rude, didn't give a sh*t what the heck she was doing. Really bad. Like "What do ya want. Ok great hurry up and get out of here" bad. We stiff her on the tip it was so bad by leaving like a buck.

She follows my sister into the bathroom and confronts her and asks why the tip was so bad. The answer was the tip speaks for itself about what we thought of the service.

Funny scene. Good times.

[Blackadar]

I have an ethics guide here which explains it thus: 10% before tax is the standard tip. If the service is good, then 15% - exceptional service gets 20% or more. There is NO provision for less than 10 %. Even poor service demands a living wage.

The rule of thumb for eating out is if you're dissatisfied with your service, SAY something - if the manager doesn't fix it, don't return to that restaurant. Don't punish the server. How is he/she supposed to know your food isn't hot if you don't say something? You don't know that he/she was sitting around while your food got cold - it could very well have been the kitchen's fault.

Also, not paying for a soda, while it may very little impact on the restaurant's bottom line, is extremely unethical, unless you didn't drink the soda because it was flat/warm/etc. If you enjoyed that soda, you should pay for it.

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your "ethics guide" in this case. I don't feel any obligation to tip a server when the service is poor. I can count the times I "stiffed" a server on one hand. Every single time it's been justified.

I'm not rewarding the server if my food is cold. There's no excuse for serving cold food - period. If you want to ask me, fine. But if you see my dinner plate sitting there for 15-20 minutes, there's never an excuse to let it get cold. Cold food = always the servers fault. Even if the kitchen made that plate early, the server should at least ASK.

I do say something to the manager btw. They need to take disciplinary action.

As for not paying for the soda...to me, I'm ordering the drink in anticipation of needing it because I'm ready to eat. I'm not ordering a soda just to get a soda. So if there's no food, then there's no need for the soda. It's like ordering a suit and just getting the pants. Without the jacket, I don't need the pants, so I'm not paying for them. I'm not enjoying my soda if there's no food.

I almost got into a fight with a manager at Pizza Hut over this one time. I went in for their lunch buffet (before I went low-carb) and there was no pizza. Just the salad bar. Needless to say, the placed filled up and everyone was on the edge of their seat watching to see when a pizza might be brought out. It was like a pack of vultures - looking back, it was comical. A bunch of construction workers, office personnel, college students all on the edge of their seats, waiting on a pizza. You *know* that even if they bring out 2-3 pies soon, they're going to be gone in a heartbeat. So I muched on a little salad for a while, but still no pizza...for 35 minutes!

So I got up, told the manager that this is supposed to be a pizza BUFFET and with no pizza, I was leaving. His response was something like "you'll have to pay for the buffet and soda because you ate salad" or something lame like that.

I flatly refused to and started to leave. He started to get in my way and I told him that if he didn't get out of my way, I was going to throw him through the fucking door (my blood sugar was pretty low at this point). He got out of the way, I left and went next door (in plain sight) to KFC to eat. I semi-expected the police to show up, but they never did.

Unethical? Not in my book. They advertised a pizza buffet. Without pizza, I wouldn't have entered the place.

[hhiipp]

Except if your party is 8 or more. You are at their mercy then.
Refer to this post http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=579620&postcount=48

[KWhit]

The worst tipper I knew was a guy I used to work with. He was a white guy - middle class. He used to put a stack of dimes on the table (couple bucks worth) and everytime the waiter made a mistake, he would take a few off.

He was a real ass and all it really got him was piss poor service on places he frequented.
Joe Stallings??

:)

[Karlifornia]

Tipping is easy. Take the amount of the tax and double it. Then, if the service was good, you throw in more, and if it was bad, you take some back. 20% as a starting point is a load, so don't buy into it!

[st.cronin]

Tipping is easy. Take the amount of the tax and double it. Then, if the service was good, you throw in more, and if it was bad, you take some back. 20% as a starting point is a load, so don't buy into it!

That only works in certain states. Also, typically there is no tax on alcohol served in lounges.

[Ben E Lou]

Joe Stallings??

:):D

[Lathum]

OK, getting in a little late here but this is my point of view. And BTW I was a corporate trainer for one of the big casual dining chains for 8 years and I now work in their office.

First off, about the sterotype, I have worked in the following states.

New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Florida, Texas, Washington State, Tennesee, Deleware, Indiana, Minnesota, and prabably a few i am forgeting. I have also worked in Guam and China.

The stereotype exists EVERYWHERE. even on GUAM. I think econimics are a part of it, but in my opinion, don't eat out if you can't afford it.

I think the main factor is education on tipping. One thing I have noticed is alot of minorities will go out and get steaks, ribs, etc, higher end items. Once they get their bill for $70, they leave a $5.00 tip thinking "hey, that's five dollars" now if a server has 20 tables like this a night thats $100, not bad.

Here is the problem.

Servers need to tip out the busser, bar, etc... so a percentage of their tips goes to tipping out others. Now some peoples response may be " that's the servers/restaurants problem" my reply to that is if they eliminated the busser, host, etc.. you would get even worse service because your server would spend all there time doing this.

More importantly, why is it a percentage? Is it really more difficult to bring me a $25 plate than it is to bring me a $10 plate?

The problem here is that a server has to declare their tips to the government. The way the government keeps track of this is by a servers sales, so the server is taxed more for the $25 plate.

I think people have a missconception of how diffucult being a GOOD server can be, and a GOOD server should be rewarded.

It is the kind of job that you really can't speculat on unless you have done it.

whew

[st.cronin]

Not tipping a server at all is exactly as if your employer decided not to pay you for some reason - yet you still had to go to work, and pay taxes as if you were getting paid.

[hhiipp]

Dang, when I was bussing tables it was rare for the server to even thank me, let alone give me a tip for doing such a good job of keeping their tables clean so someone else could use them. Maybe this happens at the classier places since I was only working at a Frischs Big Boy.

[JeeberD]

Tipping out is pretty standard practice, hhiipp. The standard for our bussers is 10% of our tips, and 5% to the bar as well. Some servers tip out more, some tip out less...

[HomerJSimpson]

Not tipping a server at all is exactly as if your employer decided not to pay you for some reason - yet you still had to go to work, and pay taxes as if you were getting paid.

Nope, because they legally have to pay you. There is no legal recourse if I do not leave a tip, nor do I some how "hire" a server when I eat out. I promise you, if I hired them I would have a fired a good number of them.

[st.cronin]

Nope, because they legally have to pay you. There is no legal recourse if I do not leave a tip, nor do I some how "hire" a server when I eat out. I promise you, if I hired them I would have a fired a good number of them.

You're not wrong, but you're talking about the law, whereas I'm talking about ethics.

[Ksyrup]

On the point of racism, when I was in law school, one Friday night we got dragged to a friggin Denny's for a late-night meal. I had already eaten, so I decided to order a milk shake. The black waitress took all of our orders, but when I ordered, she told me they were out of milk. Bizarre, but OK. So I ordered something else.

Thirty minutes later I see her bring out a milk shake to a group of black kids who had arrived after us. I got pissed, but then chalked it up to the OJ Empowerment Principle (the OJ trial had just ended) - she had the opportunity and decided to give back what she had gotten (or seen happen) all those years. But there was absolutely no provocation at all on my part, and she didn't act like she was pissed at any of us. But it definitely happened that way.

She got no tip. I would have also threatened not to return to that Denny's, but that was a moot point.

[Warhammer]

I used to work at a TPC golf course and I would say it is both racial and class oriented.

A higher % of the blacks that played out there tipped poorly. But we had a significant number of whites tip poorly as well. I think the difference came in from how they were raised, if they were raised in a middle-class or upper-class family they tipped well. If they were from a lower-class family they tipped worse.

[rkmsuf]

Nope, because they legally have to pay you. There is no legal recourse if I do not leave a tip, nor do I some how "hire" a server when I eat out. I promise you, if I hired them I would have a fired a good number of them.

Good point. You don't choose your server when you sit down.

[Ksyrup]

Be thankful then that you didn't actually get a "milk"shake.
There are many ways to go with this, but none seems particularly pleasing to think about.

[rkmsuf]

On the point of racism, when I was in law school, one Friday night we got dragged to a friggin Denny's for a late-night meal. I had already eaten, so I decided to order a milk shake. The black waitress took all of our orders, but when I ordered, she told me they were out of milk. Bizarre, but OK. So I ordered something else.

Thirty minutes later I see her bring out a milk shake to a group of black kids who had arrived after us. I got pissed, but then chalked it up to the OJ Empowerment Principle (the OJ trial had just ended) - she had the opportunity and decided to give back what she had gotten (or seen happen) all those years. But there was absolutely no provocation at all on my part, and she didn't act like she was pissed at any of us. But it definitely happened that way.

She got no tip. I would have also threatened not to return to that Denny's, but that was a moot point.

Be thankful then that you didn't actually get a "milk"shake.

[Fritz]

Not tipping a server at all is exactly as if your employer decided not to pay you for some reason - yet you still had to go to work, and pay taxes as if you were getting paid.

You're employer is not TIPPING you. its a GRATUITY - get it? Not one person here has said something like "fuck it, I don't tip because I don;t have to and it makes the meal cheap."

[self appointed spokesman]All of us who will tip low or not all would much prefer to get good service and leave a nice tip. I mean we came in looking for a bite to eat.
[/self appointed spokesman]

Thats a heck of a deal. But saying a tip is an obligation because it is how a server makes money is like saying you have to buy from a salesman after talking with him for a hour. Do your job and you will make money.

Incedentally, that tax you pay is sort of an estimate. You know you are supposed to pay on the untaxed amount, right? Unless you are the worst server ever you will average more takehome than the govt. accounts for. Drop the tax argument.

[Fritz]

You're not wrong, but you're talking about the law, whereas I'm talking about ethics.

in your mind, it is ethical to expect pay for services rendered poorly?

[Buzzbee]

I have an ethics guide here which explains it thus: 10% before tax is the standard tip. If the service is good, then 15% - exceptional service gets 20% or more. There is NO provision for less than 10 %. Even poor service demands a living wage.
Ok, I'm sorry it has taken me so long to post, but I had to clean off my monitor after spewing coke. Well, that and explain to my co-workers why I was rolling in the floor laughing.

I'm sorry, but poor service doesn't "demand" anything. The only thing poor service demands is a new career. Based on your claim, I should thank the grocery store checkout lady who takes 30 minutes to ring up my groceries because she is busy talking to one of her co-workers. After all, even poor service demands a living wage.

If a server isn't good enough to make the minimum wage in wages + tips, they need to consider a new career.



The rule of thumb for eating out is if you're dissatisfied with your service, SAY something - if the manager doesn't fix it, don't return to that restaurant. Don't punish the server. How is he/she supposed to know your food isn't hot if you don't say something? You don't know that he/she was sitting around while your food got cold - it could very well have been the kitchen's fault.

Also, not paying for a soda, while it may very little impact on the restaurant's bottom line, is extremely unethical, unless you didn't drink the soda because it was flat/warm/etc. If you enjoyed that soda, you should pay for it.
You are assuming that I haven't said something about the meal before not leaving a tip. Bad assumption.

[sterlingice]

Never been there. I don't support big businesses like theirs.
Oh, the irony ;)

SI

[st.cronin]

If you contract a painter to paint your house, and you don't like the job he did, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with not paying him.

[Huckleberry]

If you contract a painter to paint your house, and you don't like the job he did, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with not paying him.
1.) I agree to a flat rate with a painter prior to the service being rendered. That is wholly dissimilar to gratuity.

2.) I get to pick the painter. That is wholly dissimilar to your assigned waitperson at a restaurant.

I'm not sure you could have come up with a worse analogy while still maintaining a supplier/customer scenario.

[hhiipp]

If you contract a painter to paint your house, and you don't like the job he did, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with not paying him.
http://www.wegmans.com/kitchen/ingredients/produce/fruit/images/apples.jpg http://www.brownsgrove.com/img/Oranges.jpg

[QuikSand]

Also, typically there is no tax on alcohol served in lounges.

If this is the case in your state, it's an exception, and not the norm. In most states, sales taxes (and sometimes additional taxes) apply to the whole of a restaurant meal.

[Buzzbee]

If you contract a painter to paint your house, and you don't like the job he did, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with not paying him.
Contract. Hmmm...do they have contracts between customers at a restaurant and the server? Wow!! I don't ever remember signing one.

Also, I don't recall the server having to buy the food they bring to you, whereas the painter most likely has to buy the paint he uses to paint your house (although you could buy the paint and supply it to the painter).

Got any other anaolgies that we can shoot down?

[Draft Dodger]

another concept I find strange -
I read on StraightDope that in some restaurants if you pay by credit card, the restaurant will deduct the credit card fee from the server's tip (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtiplesstax.html). this seemd hard to believe to me - to all the waiters out there, does this really happen?

[st.cronin]

No, but there are *social* contracts - unwritten rules. What I am responding to was somebody's assertion that he didn't feel obligated to leave ANY tip. There is a social obligation to do so ... the government acknowledges this by taxing your server a percentage of your food bill as WAGES - not as a gift.

[st.cronin]

another concept I find strange -
I read on StraightDope that in some restaurants if you pay by credit card, the restaurant will deduct the credit card fee from the server's tip (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtiplesstax.html). this seemd hard to believe to me - to all the waiters out there, does this really happen?

This is true. It's not much - typically a few cents a transaction.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

If you contract a painter to paint your house, and you don't like the job he did, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with not paying him.

If the restaurant wants to obligate me to pay for the service staff, they can raise the price on food and raise the wages for the wait staff to compensate them for their labor. The fact that they don't do that means they would rather that I have the discretion to choose whether to pay them and how much. And to the extent that they're always lobbying to increase the tip as a percentage of the overall bill (from 10% -> 15% -> 20%), means they want me to have still more discretion. This is the system the industry wants. It's not abuse at all to make use of that discretion and pay more or less as the service warrants; that's how this system is designed to work.

I suspect that the reason that restaurants like this system is that they think people will order more food (or more expensive food) if the prices appearing on the menu are discounted 20% from what it actually costs when the bills are paid. They know people tend to be mentally lazy and often won't calculate in the tip when looking at prices on the menu. The more of the price they can shift to the tip, the better it is for them.

[JeeberD]

another concept I find strange -
I read on StraightDope that in some restaurants if you pay by credit card, the restaurant will deduct the credit card fee from the server's tip (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtiplesstax.html). this seemd hard to believe to me - to all the waiters out there, does this really happen?

Doesn't happen at the OG, at least not that I've ever noticed...

[Loren]

Mexican here..and i WAS a horrible tipper, we're cheap..i wouldnt tip for crap and really saw no point, i mean they were getting a paycheck and it's THIER JOB...plus we were broke :rolleyes: but the white man changed me a bit dammnit...but i still only tip for good service, sorry but if you're a moron then im not tipping you..even if the place is packed and i see that the waiter/waitress is super busy, if she doesnt make the effort then they're getting nothing..but usually now that we have a little money if i dont tip it's because the guy/girls a moron and had just plain bad service:) but anything over 3 bucks makes me cringe...

[JeeberD]

i wouldnt tip for crap and really saw no point, i mean they were getting a paycheck...

Nope, not here in Texas, sweetie. $2.13/hour and all that goes towards the taxes we pay on our tips. Most servers get a paycheck of a couple a bucks a week if they even get that much...

[Franklinnoble]

"I don't just tip, I overtip. It's my philosophy. It's my philosophy!"

[Loren]

ughh good thing i never paid taxes when i was a waitress :D i never expected a tip though, got them but didnt EXPECT them....Cringer makes me tip now though :rolleyes:

[Draft Dodger]

one more sidetrack that relates to the original stereotype post.

I work at a call center taking incoming sales calls. Anytime anyone calls with a middle-eastern accent or an asian accent one of our first expectations is that this customer is going to try to haggle about the price ("come on, I know you can do just a LITTLE better for me"). strangely, it only seems to be the guys who want to do this haggling. often, they will ask repeatedly to the point of badgering, and sometimes try to doubletalk or trick you into offering a price you didn't mean to. kind of a strange thing

[Ironhead]

hxxp://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/

[JeeberD]

hxxp://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/

Brilliant! :D

[Franklinnoble]

hxxp://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/

Looks like a lot of bullshit to me.

[Sharpieman]

Here in CA its just easiest to double the tax.
I am prejudice I guess, I don't like tipping servers under the age of 18 too much. They usually seem to be the worst workers and lazy too.

[cuervo72]

$2.13? Damn, I think these days you can get $7/hr from working fast food. I made $5.25 back in 1990 at BK.

[JeeberD]

Yup, $2.13 here. I've heard in California servers actually get paid $6.00/hour because of the increased cost of living there, though.

With tips, though, I make much, much more than I ever did when I was doing the whole fast food thing back in the day (even though I was making like $6.75/hour as an assistant manager, no less)...

[Franklinnoble]

Yup, $2.13 here. I've heard in California servers actually get paid $6.00/hour because of the increased cost of living there, though.

With tips, though, I make much, much more than I ever did when I was doing the whole fast food thing back in the day (even though I was making like $6.75/hour as an assistant manager, no less)...

Yeah, I hear nude dancers make pretty good tips.

[JeeberD]

Hmmm, I wonder if La Bare's is looking for overweight text sim players to dance on the weekends?

[Kodos]

How hard is it to figure out a tip? If you want to do 15%, figure out what 10% is and add on half. If you tip 20%, move the decimal point over and then double that amount.

I was very briefly a waiter in college, and can attest to the fact that it is a very difficult job. I was terrible at it, and quickly quit. I don't like people, and serving their every whim did not suit my temperament very well. Plus, lots of people seem to come in just looking for excuses to be complain (and I always gave them plenty of reasons to complain). A good waiter should be rewarded, and you have to practically kill me before I'll stiff you. Mostly, if you just manage to keep my Coke filled, you're going to get 20%.

Sadly, the best tip I ever got was some guy trying to pick me up. But you're gonna have to tip a lot better than that before I switch teams, pal! :D

[JeeberD]

This thread has gotten a whole lot more posts than my thread two years ago... :(

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=5596

Gotta be the Fritz factor...

[panerd]

Yeah, I hear nude dancers make pretty good tips.

I want to see some of these bastards try the "I have no contract, so I don't have to tip" to a shitty lap-dancer. Let's see how fast your ass gets thrown out of the strip club.

(Former waiter, now a teacher) I find a lot of people's attitudes about both jobs perplexing, but I guess this is probably true about everyone's job.

[KWhit]

A lap dance costs $20 (or so I hear)... Any tip you give is in addition to the price of the dance.

[Buzzbee]

I want to see some of these bastards try the "I have no contract, so I don't have to tip" to a shitty lap-dancer. Let's see how fast your ass gets thrown out of the strip club.

(Former waiter, now a teacher) I find a lot of people's attitudes about both jobs perplexing, but I guess this is probably true about everyone's job.
No clothes = good service = good tip!!

[panerd]

A lap dance costs $20 (or so I hear)... Any tip you give is in addition to the price of the dance.

It should have read table dance, i.e. when you sit up in the stage and get tits rubbed on your head. I want to see someone tell the bouncer that they didn't sign a contract with C-Mowes and therefore are under no obligation to tip for a bad tit-in-face rub.

[Buzzbee]

It should have read table dance, i.e. when you sit up in the stage and get tits rubbed on your head. I want to see someone tell the bouncer that they didn't sign a contract with C-Mowes and therefore are under no obligation to tip for a bad tit-in-face rub.
See, that's where your missing it. There is no such thing.:D

[Loren]

It should have read table dance, i.e. when you sit up in the stage and get tits rubbed on your head. I want to see someone tell the bouncer that they didn't sign a contract with C-Mowes and therefore are under no obligation to tip for a bad tit-in-face rub.

if you're getting tits rubbed on your head you've already paid up...they didnt let that sort of thing go for, an ill pay up after its over kinda deal back when i worked at one, can only imagine how much more strict it is now..well unless maybe you're at a totally nasty place where they're gonna beat the crap out of you at the end of the nite and take your money anywayss :rolleyes:

[HomerJSimpson]

It should have read table dance, i.e. when you sit up in the stage and get tits rubbed on your head. I want to see someone tell the bouncer that they didn't sign a contract with C-Mowes and therefore are under no obligation to tip for a bad tit-in-face rub.

Again, apples and oranges. You do agree to pay for the table dance, (and often pay first) there is a set amount you must pay not based on what you have ate or drank (though the more you drink, the more your likely to pay) and you PICK THE GIRL!!! (Not that I know anthing about that :)).


Go back again and read the definition of "Gratuity" and tell me where you read "obligation" "contract" or "must" in it. (Actually just read one that says "without obligation," the exact opposite of what some here are suggesting).

This is funny, because I try and tip well because I've lived on tips before. I also recognized that people had the right not to tip me, and didn't cry when I didn't get tipped when something was wrong even outside of my responsibilty. That is a part of the job just as much as getting a big tip for something someone else might have done. It all balanced in the end, and if it didn't then I would have found another job.

[KWhit]

I think he's talking about sitting up at the seats around the stage and getting a "free show". Generally, one is expected to tip the ladies if sitting there, but it is usually not required. However, you may get a bouncer to come up to you and try to persuade you to start throwing your dollars at the girls.

[JAG]

Last night my wife and I went out to eat. As we finished eating our entrees, I spoke with her about this thread to see what her opinion would be.

Me: "There was a thread on the football board about tipping. Apparently there is a stereotype that blacks aren't very good tippers compared to others."

Her: "Well I can understand why that stereotype would exist. Most blacks live in urban areas, so many have probably never even seen a cow. When they do first see one, their instinct is not to tip it over."

Me: (at this point I'm trying to determine if she's being serious...after realizing she is, I laugh and laugh and laugh)

Her: What? ...oh.

[Ben E Lou]

Last night my wife and I went out to eat. As we finished eating our entrees, I spoke with her about this thread to see what her opinion would be.

Me: "There was a thread on the football board about tipping. Apparently there is a stereotype that blacks aren't very good tippers compared to others."

Her: "Well I can understand why that stereotype would exist. Most blacks live in urban areas, so many have probably never even seen a cow. When they do first see one, their instinct is not to tip it over."

Me: (at this point I'm trying to determine if she's being serious...after realizing she is, I laugh and laugh and laugh)

Her: What? ...oh.Hysterical!!!

[Franklinnoble]

Last night my wife and I went out to eat. As we finished eating our entrees, I spoke with her about this thread to see what her opinion would be.

Me: "There was a thread on the football board about tipping. Apparently there is a stereotype that blacks aren't very good tippers compared to others."

Her: "Well I can understand why that stereotype would exist. Most blacks live in urban areas, so many have probably never even seen a cow. When they do first see one, their instinct is not to tip it over."

Me: (at this point I'm trying to determine if she's being serious...after realizing she is, I laugh and laugh and laugh)

Her: What? ...oh.

Brilliant! :D

[sterlingice]

Last night my wife and I went out to eat. As we finished eating our entrees, I spoke with her about this thread to see what her opinion would be.

Me: "There was a thread on the football board about tipping. Apparently there is a stereotype that blacks aren't very good tippers compared to others."

Her: "Well I can understand why that stereotype would exist. Most blacks live in urban areas, so many have probably never even seen a cow. When they do first see one, their instinct is not to tip it over."

Me: (at this point I'm trying to determine if she's being serious...after realizing she is, I laugh and laugh and laugh)

Her: What? ...oh.
Hahaha! http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

SI

[Raiders Army]

Last night my wife and I went out to eat. As we finished eating our entrees, I spoke with her about this thread to see what her opinion would be.

Me: "There was a thread on the football board about tipping. Apparently there is a stereotype that blacks aren't very good tippers compared to others."

Her: "Well I can understand why that stereotype would exist. Most blacks live in urban areas, so many have probably never even seen a cow. When they do first see one, their instinct is not to tip it over."

Me: (at this point I'm trying to determine if she's being serious...after realizing she is, I laugh and laugh and laugh)

Her: What? ...oh.
Hee hee. :)

[miked]

I don't necessarily buy into the whole class-level argument. I never paid attention how I was tipped by race, but what I found was that the richer people looked and the nicer the car they drove, the worse my tip was. Doctors and lawyer types are among the worst tippers because they believe that since their job is so difficult and they are so smart (allegedly) that you should be greatful that they give you anything while doing such a low-level job that doesn't require any extra education. I don't work in restaurants anymore, but I found the best tippers to be people in various service and art industries.

15% is usually my bare minimum...even if the person's a walter. Why? Because I am a functioning member of society and realize that this is how things work. Anyone who doesn't tip because they think it's the restaurant's job to provide for the staff is just looking for an excuse to be an asshole.

[condors]

working at a private golf club as a parking valet = worst job ever

min wage and i would be shocked if i ever got a tip

what is worse is we were also the coat check guys so they turn in their stub we get their coat run (we were not allowed to walk or wear a winter coat) and get their car and pull it around and open the door for them.

[Bad-example]

What is the rule when ordering a meal to go? My dad and I bought a meal at Outback and we were unsure what constituted an acceptable tip when getting a take out order...

[Easy Mac]

nothing is acceptable, or do you tip the people at McDonald's drive-thru?

[Bad-example]

nothing is acceptable, or do you tip the people at McDonald's drive-thru?

Well, I figured that it takes a certain amount of time for the server to get our meals ready, and she walked it out to the car as well. I figured she deserved at least a small tip to compensate her for the time lost serving her sit down customers. I gave her ten percent on a fifty dollar meal.

[JeeberD]

What is the rule when ordering a meal to go? My dad and I bought a meal at Outback and we were unsure what constituted an acceptable tip when getting a take out order...

Ten percent is perfectly acceptable...

[Blackadar]

Drive through? 0%.

Take out? 0%

[randal7]

if you're getting tits rubbed on your head you've already paid up...they didnt let that sort of thing go for, an ill pay up after its over kinda deal back when i worked at one, can only imagine how much more strict it is now..well unless maybe you're at a totally nasty place where they're gonna beat the crap out of you at the end of the nite and take your money anywayss :rolleyes:
I can't believe none of you caught this...

[bionicgrov03]

Right, and I already paid for the event. Talk to your employer about your wage.

Do you really think that will work? I worked at a fairly expensive steakhouse for almost five years while I was in college (graduated in 2002). I think what everyone has failed to mention is that most restaraunts pay their employees $2.13 an hour. And since servers have to report their total sales to the IRS, that $2.13 is taken up solely on paying taxes. I know some of you may think that as long as servers don't declare any of their tips, they won't have to pay any taxes, but the IRS has already figured that out for you:

1. Most people pay with credit/debit cards these days. Those can be directly reported.
2. If you get lucky and have a night where all of your customers pay with cash, the IRS will still "assume" that you made 8% of your total sales in tips. They will tax you on that 8%.

While everyone's arguments have some merit, let's not forget the fact that 85 times out of 100, servers do not receive any other type of income than tips from you, our paying customer.

[Klinglerware]

I can't believe none of you caught this...

I did take brief note, but at this point I'm too jaded...

[JeeberD]

I can't believe none of you caught this...

Oh I caught it, I just decided not to make a big deal out of it...

[Raiders Army]

I can't believe none of you caught this...

:rolleyes: Unless you're gonna post pix, I don't care. :)

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Well Ill add my 2 cents to this discussion. I am a 19 year old black college student and I make it a point to tip 15% on any sit down meal I eat. My girlfriend will often look at me like Im crazy and what Ive found is that most highschool and college age kids tend to want to preserve as much of their limited resources as possible, even if this means the difference between a dollar or two. I was just brought up to tip 15% no matter what because thats the classy thing to do so thats what I do. As far as my adult family they all seem to follow this rule exactly or exceed it. Ive heard the rumours about black tipping and I think if an actual study was done the numbers would be similar between whites and blacks overall, (sort of like the whole mythical phallic superiority) which has been proven to be false by studies and is still commonly believed.

[JasonC23]

Well Ill add my 2 cents to this discussion. I am a 19 year old black college student and I make it a point to tip 15% on any sit down meal I eat. My girlfriend will often look at me like Im crazy and what Ive found is that most highschool and college age kids tend to want to preserve as much of their limited resources as possible, even if this means the difference between a dollar or two. I was just brought up to tip 15% no matter what because thats the classy thing to do so thats what I do. As far as my adult family they all seem to follow this rule exactly or exceed it. Ive heard the rumours about black tipping and I think if an actual study was done the numbers would be similar between whites and blacks overall, (sort of like the whole mythical phallic superiority) which has been proven to be false by studies and is still commonly believed.
Pics pls k tks

[HomerJSimpson]

Drive through? 0%.

Take out? 0%

Yeah, but he is talking about "curb service" take out, which I would say deserves some tip, as long as the food is on time, the order is right, and they provided some extras (napkins, straws, untensils, sexual favors, etc.).

[rkmsuf]

Yeah, but he is talking about "curb service" take out, which I would say deserves some tip, as long as the food is on time, the order is right, and they provided some extras (napkins, straws, untensils, sexual favors, etc.).

Why? I didn't make them institute this? You mean I have to tip if they have to walk 15 feet? I thought the whole reason was my comfort and to attract business?

If it's raining or something maybe.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

I didnt know you were supposed to tip when you take out from a sit down restaurant, thats new to me.

[JeeberD]

nothing is acceptable, or do you tip the people at McDonald's drive-thru?

Do you tip the person who fills your drink at Wendy's or do you just not tip your bartender?

[hhiipp]

Pics pls k tks
I'm dumbfounded that you just asked for pics of his and other males junk. In the words of Hank Hill, "That boy ain't right."

[rkmsuf]

I'm dumbfounded that you just asked for pics of his and other males junk. In the words of Hank Hill, "That boy ain't right."

We'll chalk it up to "I think he got confused."

[HomerJSimpson]

Why? I didn't make them institute this? You mean I have to tip if they have to walk 15 feet? I thought the whole reason was my comfort and to attract business?

If it's raining or something maybe.

Listen, you don't "have" to do anything (see my earlier points), I was just saying etiquette wise that, yes, that is a tipping situation. Like at a grocery, you don't tip the bag boy, but you might (depending upon store rules) if they take the bags to your car.

On top of that, if you don't want to tip the server, then walk in and get your own bags.

[KevinNU7]

My tipping range is and has always been.

Horrible/Bad Service - 10%
Below Average - 15%
Average - 20%
Great - 20%+ (usually means I'm rounded the total bill to a whole number, let's say the bill is $79.85 I might make the total payment $100 if they were really good)

I've probably given 10% maybe 5 times in my entire life.

Oh also, if you are a "poor college student" you should not out to eat in places beyong your means. Go to Dennys instead of that place that charges $25 per entree. Then you can leave a realistic tip for the location.

[HomerJSimpson]

I didnt know you were supposed to tip when you take out from a sit down restaurant, thats new to me.

Actually, the question was about "curb service" where they bring it to your car, BUT I believe the Emily Post level of etiquette does say you tip on a take out. Not as much as when you eat there. I'll look it up and let you know.

[rkmsuf]

Listen, you don't "have" to do anything (see my earlier points), I was just saying etiquette wise that, yes, that is a tipping situation. Like at a grocery, you don't tip the bag boy, but you might (depending upon store rules) if they take the bags to your car.

On top of that, if you don't want to tip the server, then walk in and get your own bags.

See I don't think it's a tipping situation. I don't tip them inside so what I should give them a quarter because they walked 20 feet? I'd go in but they are offering this to me the consumer to get my business.

[HomerJSimpson]

See I don't think it's a tipping situation. I don't tip them inside so what I should give them a quarter because they walked 20 feet? I'd go in but they are offering this to me the consumer to get my business.

I'll give you the fisical reason: The waitstaff that brings it to your car is generally the same one that packaged the food, and they make tip-share (ie. nothing) unless you tip.

And the etiquette reason: Because they offer you an extra service, and that generally calls for a tip.

I found several sources saying the general tip for this kind of service is $1-2 dollars, or 10% of total if they provide something extra special.

(Of course it is totally up to you whether you tip or not. If you don't want to, don't. I'm just giving the tip-etiquette for this stuff. I don't know why we tip at all, but we do, so it is good to know the proper etiquette).

[JasonC23]

We'll chalk it up to "I think he got confused."
Or, "I think he was joking." :)

[hhiipp]

I'll give you the fisical reason: The waitstaff that brings it to your car is generally the same one that packaged the food, and they make tip-share (ie. nothing) unless you tip.

And the etiquette reason: Because they offer you an extra service, and that generally calls for a tip.

I found several sources saying the general tip for this kind of service is $1-2 dollars, or 10% of total if they provide something extra special.

(Of course it is totally up to you whether you tip or not. If you don't want to, don't. I'm just giving the tip-etiquette for this stuff. I don't know why we tip at all, but we do, so it is good to know the proper etiquette).
The only restaurant around here that delivers food to your vehicle is Applebees, and the people that actually bring it to your vehicle are the same ones that seat you and open the doors as you come in and leave, they aren't waiters they earn at least minimum wage.

[korme]

I'd also like to say that while I'm a good tipper, I don't like the fact that we do tip. I feel it's really less about rewarding good service and become a way for us to subsidize restaurant's payroll expenses. If I really think about it, I get a little annoyed that a server is paid almost nothing by the restaurant - all that responsibility is on the customer. Wish it wasn't that way, and I wonder, with all these big "neighborhood" chains if someday, someone isn't going to come up with a no-tipping gimmick...
great theory. however, i am not so sure how effective that might be. tipping is kind of a reason to bank on good service. with no tips, waiters/waitresses have less of a reason to give a damn if you need a refill, come to your table periodically and reasonably, etc.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger
I'd also like to say that while I'm a good tipper, I don't like the fact that we do tip. I feel it's really less about rewarding good service and become a way for us to subsidize restaurant's payroll expenses. If I really think about it, I get a little annoyed that a server is paid almost nothing by the restaurant - all that responsibility is on the customer. Wish it wasn't that way, and I wonder, with all these big "neighborhood" chains if someday, someone isn't going to come up with a no-tipping gimmick...


I think part of it too is people(customers) feel good about themselves in general when they tip when they feel it's warrented. In some weird way they may feel like some kind of hero to the waitstaff and thus increase the image of the customer being king.

That's one reason I could come up with as to why the neighboorhood joint wouldn't do a no tip. Particularly for "regulars". Kind of like here's something for you, take care of me because I'll be in here a lot.

I dunno, just a different way of looking at it.

[sterlingice]

great theory. however, i am not so sure how effective that might be. tipping is kind of a reason to bank on good service. with no tips, waiters/waitresses have less of a reason to give a damn if you need a refill, come to your table periodically and reasonably, etc.
Could you imagine the service from the wage slaves at Best Buy or Mickey D's? You know, the ones who get your drive thru order right 1 out of every 3 times or the guy you want to punch in the face for talking down to you about computers despite the fact that you know more than he does?

SI