Grey Dog announces Bowl Bound College Football

[Dave66]

The game looks great! Any idea when you will release info on how to edit teh graphics?

[Buccaneer]

Our long time friend wheels has done a superb job.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

*drooling almost as much for this as for FM2006*

and we all know that to me FM2006 is the ultimate drool game right now, so Arlie I think you've certainly lived up to the hype so far (at least if she plays as pretty as she looks).
Ditto. The interface rivals that of FM 2005. Me drool good. :D

[Anthony]

those screens are very impressive. am i mistaken or can you create your own plays? if so, that's even more impressive.

[Arles]

You can't create them in this version. But, the way I did them should allow for an easier transition to custom plays on a later version. I just felt that having the engine well-tested and allowing user-created plays was a pretty big task to handle in a first version. You will have over 300 plays all shown in similar detail to choose from though (from 15 offensive and 10 defensive formations).

[Anthony]

oh ok, creating your own custom gameplan works just as well. it's looking *very* nice so far Arlie, good luck over there at Grey Dog, you certainly have my attention.

[WSUCougar]

Screenshots are nice and all, but...

...when I saw your name as the last poster, Arles, I was hoping for a bigger splash.
Given the crap I saw from the Grey Dog board in that other release date thread, I just want to mention that the above was posted in a spirit of humor and not intended as a bash in any way.

[Passacaglia]

You can't create them in this version. But, the way I did them should allow for an easier transition to custom plays on a later version. I just felt that having the engine well-tested and allowing user-created plays was a pretty big task to handle in a first version. You will have over 300 plays all shown in similar detail to choose from though (from 15 offensive and 10 defensive formations).

How much variation is there in passing plays? Are there some plays where there's really only one option for the QB (e.g.a fade or slant), as well as some palys where there are several options for the QB to read?

[AgustusM]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/images/bb/screens/pbp.jpg

This is the best "in-game" screen I have seen for any "text-career-based" sports game.

I am not a huge college football fan, but this single screen has sold me on the game - now release it!!!!!! :)

[Anthony]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/images/bb/screens/pbp.jpg

This is the best "in-game" screen I have seen for any "text-career-based" sports game.

I am not a huge college football fan, but this single screen has sold me on the game - now release it!!!!!! :)

it is rather impressive.

[KWhit]

Yeah. I like that you can see the offensive and defensive play on the screen to go along with the PBP. Good stuff.

As long as the AI and game engine are perfect I'll be satisfied.

:)

[mauchow]

I recall in TPF there was never anything more or less than a yard. I do believe it is in FOF, but I haven't played in a while.

Fourth and less than 1. Fourth and inches perhaps? Or will it always be full yards? Or is this a silly question.

[Wolfpack]

How much tinkering with the interface is allowed? Could we theoretically create graphics for the end zones and midfield, for example? It'd be pretty doggone sweet to put field artwork in. Also, do we have control over fonts and the like? Generally everything looks great, but I'm still not sure how much I like the "Star Trek"-y look of the main large fonts being used.

Also, was it ever determined how you were going to handle the scheduling issues regarding intra-conference, cross-division rivalries? You said you were going to look into it before.

[sovereignstar]

I am not a huge college football fan, but this single screen has sold me on the game - now release it!!!!!! :)

No offense, man, but that's kind of sad. A screen has sold you on a text-based simulation? You'll fork over 35 dollars with no knowledge as to how the engine works? You should check out some TPF screenshots - and keep your wallet handy.

[Passacaglia]

I recall in TPF there was never anything more or less than a yard. I do believe it is in FOF, but I haven't played in a while.

Fourth and less than 1. Fourth and inches perhaps? Or will it always be full yards? Or is this a silly question.

FOF has only integer yards.

[CraigSca]

Personally I find it good news that Arlie has decided not to have user-created plays at this point. As we all know all the eye candy in the world doesn't mean squat unless the game engine is dead-on. Here's hoping that it is, because this puppy looks like a lot of fun.

[Bee]

No offense, man, but that's kind of sad. A screen has sold you on a text-based simulation? You'll fork over 35 dollars with no knowledge as to how the engine works? You should check out some TPF screenshots - and keep your wallet handy.

Yep, I was having flashbacks to TPF as well while reading some of the comments about the screenshots. I'm hoping the game is great and blows away anything we've ever seen, but I'm also going to wait to see the game in action before jumping on the bandwagon.

[ice4277]

Yep, I was having flashbacks to TPF as well while reading some of the comments about the screenshots. I'm hoping the game is great and blows away anything we've ever seen, but I'm also going to wait to see the game in action before jumping on the bandwagon.
Agreed. I'm really hoping for this to be a good one, but I'm definitely going to wait for a few good reviews before making the plunge.

[Cringer]

Normally I would wait to buy, as I did with TPF and then passed on. One good thing about my job is it seems games always come out when I am on the road so there is usually a few days worth of reviews by the time I get home and have a chance to buy it. Anyways, I have a good feeling about this game and I probably will be buying ASAP.

Not because of the screen shots though, but more based on what Arlie has said about the game in this thread and others along the lines of actually playing the game. Screens don't do too much for me.

[Anthony]

the way i see it, screenshots of nice interfaces don't necessarily mean the AI will be bad (i have no info on TPF). i don't think you have to have one or the other. FOF is nice, but the interface is rather "ho hum". obviously if you devote practically all your resources to the AI, the meat and potatoes of the game will be the gameplay/stats, with graphics coming in at a distant second on the priority scale. but if i wanted to just have good AI i'd play a game using Excel formulas. i want *some* eye candy, i want to feel like i'm playing a game and not running spreadsheets and reports, i can do that at work. not saying that's how FOF is, but again, you can't totally abandon graphics.

[Arles]

How much tinkering with the interface is allowed? Could we theoretically create graphics for the end zones and midfield, for example?
Yeah, you will be able to have custom endzones.

Also, do we have control over fonts and the like? Generally everything looks great, but I'm still not sure how much I like the "Star Trek"-y look of the main large fonts being used.
No, the fonts have to stay the same.

Also, was it ever determined how you were going to handle the scheduling issues regarding intra-conference, cross-division rivalries? You said you were going to look into it before.
I haven't been able to find a way that allows me to be flexible as well as institute every conference rivalry without essentially hardcoding matchups. Which, if I did that, would kill any chance for customizing the conferences. So, at this point, your rival looks to be the only conference game you can "mandate" unless I suddenly get a revelation on how to do this without rewriting the entire scheduling process.

[mrsimperless]

I of course have no idea how your scheduling algorithm works Arles, but would it be possible to identify multiple rivalries for a given team? I guess that would probably make the rotation of other conference foes kind of ugly and that's probably where your problem actually lies, but I thought I'd throw that out there. It would be cool to identify multiple annual rivalry games.

[Arles]

I of course have no idea how your scheduling algorithm works Arles, but would it be possible to identify multiple rivalries for a given team? I guess that would probably make the rotation of other conference foes kind of ugly and that's probably where your problem actually lies, but I thought I'd throw that out there. It would be cool to identify multiple annual rivalry games.
You could, but let's say someone wants to run a DII or DI-AA league. That's where the issues arise.

[st.cronin]

I guess there's no way to make 2 kinds of rivals - intraconference and extraconference? And make either one customizable for people wanting to run fictional or DII leagues?

[Anthony]

Yeah, you will be able to have custom endzones.



ok, i buy.

[DaddyTorgo]

I haven't been able to find a way that allows me to be flexible as well as institute every conference rivalry without essentially hardcoding matchups. Which, if I did that, would kill any chance for customizing the conferences. So, at this point, your rival looks to be the only conference game you can "mandate" unless I suddenly get a revelation on how to do this without rewriting the entire scheduling process.
this doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others I don't think, because I like the idea that conferences are customizable. I'm willing to sacrifice the occasional rivalry game for that, especially because if we're talking about 20 or 25 year careers then there's bound to be lots of natural evolution in rivalries.

[Ben E Lou]

if we're talking about 20 or 25 year careers then there's bound to be lots of natural evolution in rivalries.Georgia and Auburn were rivals 100 years ago, were rivals 75 years ago, were rivals 50 years ago, were rivals 25 years ago. THE most frustrating aspect of TCY for me was this, and it sounds like it will be just as frustrating in BBCF. Not a deal-breaker by itself, but a *real* bummer.

[Buccaneer]

Georgia and Auburn were rivals 100 years ago, were rivals 75 years ago, were rivals 50 years ago, were rivals 25 years ago. THE most frustrating aspect of TCY for me was this, and it sounds like it will be just as frustrating in BBCF. Not a deal-breaker by itself, but a *real* bummer.
I may be misreading in that you're implying UGA-Auburn is the biggest rivalry of UGA? Isn't UGA-GT bigger (at least used to be) and older (1893?)? Didn't they have a book written about that? Wouldn't Auburn consider Alabama their biggest rival? In looking around, sounds like UGA-UF is a big one now but it certainly wasn't 30-50 years ago. With the rise of football in Florida (plus the demise in the Northeast), there certainly have been a lot of rivalry changes over the years.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Will the game's almanac come with ''fake'' stats or will it be a Tabula Ressa?

[digamma]

I may be misreading in that you're implying UGA-Auburn is the biggest rivalry of UGA? Isn't UGA-GT bigger (at least used to be) and older (1893?)? Didn't they have a book written about that? Wouldn't Auburn consider Alabama their biggest rival? In looking around, sounds like UGA-UF is a big one now but it certainly wasn't 30-50 years ago. With the rise of football in Florida (plus the demise in the Northeast), there certainly have been a lot of rivalry changes over the years.
Yeah, Ben's point is that Auburn and Georgia play every year--and the frustration is that Auburn as a permanent opponent can't be coded into the game, unless you leave out Georgia Tech as the rivalry game (and permanent opponent). You're right that Auburn is probably Georgia's third rival after Florida and Georgia Tech.

[st.cronin]

I would like to see a 'rivalry intensity rating' for each possible opponent. For example, UGA could have a rivalry of 100 with Auburn and Ga Tech - meaning they play every year. The higher the rating, the more likely the teams are to schedule each other.

[Swaggs]

I would like to see a 'rivalry intensity rating' for each possible opponent. For example, UGA could have a rivalry of 100 with Auburn and Ga Tech - meaning they play every year. The higher the rating, the more likely the teams are to schedule each other.

That's a damn fine idea.

[st.cronin]

That's a damn fine idea.

Thanks. Ideally, it would be customizable, and perhaps dynamic - increasing or decreasing over time.

I can't even begin to imagine how to program that, though. Solecismic once said the hardest part of TCY was the schedule function.

[Swaggs]

Thanks. Ideally, it would be customizable, and perhaps dynamic - increasing or decreasing over time.

I can't even begin to imagine how to program that, though. Solecismic once said the hardest part of TCY was the schedule function.

Yeah... using some different factors like distances between schools, conference affiliations, number of times the teams have met, teams' records when they have met, winning streaks vs one another. It could increase/decrease if one team gains a huge advantage.

[AgustusM]

No offense, man, but that's kind of sad. A screen has sold you on a text-based simulation? You'll fork over 35 dollars with no knowledge as to how the engine works? You should check out some TPF screenshots - and keep your wallet handy.

At this point in my life, 35 bucks just isn't very much money. I did buy TPF, just like I buy pretty much every sports sim that comes out.

Once I have it, how good it is will dictate how much time I play it, which unfortunately is something I never seem to have enough of.

[st.cronin]

Yeah... using some different factors like distances between schools, conference affiliations, number of times the teams have met, teams' records when they have met, winning streaks vs one another. It could increase/decrease if one team gains a huge advantage.

Great minds think alike... that's exactly what I had in mind.

[Buccaneer]

Yeah... using some different factors like distances between schools, conference affiliations, number of times the teams have met, teams' records when they have met, winning streaks vs one another. It could increase/decrease if one team gains a huge advantage.
That makes sense. Conference rivals should nearly always meet (UGA-Auburn, UGA-UF) but sometimes (like once every 10 years), they can't. Otherwise there would be no games between certain conference opponents. As far as intra-conference rivals (like UGA-GT), it can't be static because that may leave little flexibility room for other games - or new rivals. I am in the camp to where rivals need to change every generation and to permit the growth of new rivals within the game universe.

[Ben E Lou]

That makes sense. Conference rivals should nearly always meet (UGA-Auburn, UGA-UF) but sometimes (like once every 10 years), they can't. Otherwise there would be no games between certain conference opponents. As far as intra-conference rivals (like UGA-GT), it can't be static because that may leave little flexibility room for other games - or new rivals. I am in the camp to where rivals need to change every generation and to permit the growth of new rivals within the game universe.Every ten years???? ROFLMBAO!!!! Try every 100 years. Georgia and Auburn have only missed ONE game against each other all the way back to the 1890's, and that was because the Aubies didn't field a team one year due to WW2. Sheesh.

[WSUCougar]

Every ten years???? ROFLMBAO!!!! Try every 100 years. Georgia and Auburn have only missed ONE game against each other all the way back to the 1890's, and that was because the Aubies didn't field a team one year due to WW2. Sheesh.
Does the Georgia/Georgia Tech rivalry match that in terms of being scheduled every single year, for that long a time?

[KWhit]

Does the Georgia/Georgia Tech rivalry match that in terms of being scheduled every single year, for that long a time?
No, it doesn't. I'm not sure when the last time UGA didn't play Tech, but it doesn't go back that far.

[digamma]

Does the Georgia/Georgia Tech rivalry match that in terms of being scheduled every single year, for that long a time? Georgia and Auburn first played in 1891. Tech and Georgia first played in 1893. Tech and Georgia got into a little spat in the 1920s and didn't play for several years, so I think the Auburn series has 108 meetings and the Tech series has either 97 or 99 meetings (depending on who you ask--Georgia doesn't count two games during WWII, because they whine that Tech used strong military students who whipped their asses).

[dawgfan]

I'll preface my comments by admitting I've never tried to figure out an algorithm to handle football scheduling, and I'm sure the desire to have home and home arrangements, various differing conference schedule setups and varying rivalry game needs complicate things greatly.

That said, I wonder to what extent these problems could be relieved by allowing teams to play dummy Div 1-AA teams - i.e., if you have a hole in your schedule for whatever reason, fill where necessary with a randomly generated Div 1-AA team. Said teams would be bottom of the barrell in terms of talent compared to the regular Div 1-A teams, and you wouldn't need to worry about tracking those teams other than in the specific games they'd be needed to fill-in schedules. They could exist simply to fill out schedules with no need to track the stats of their players or the record of that team.

In other words, take the EA NCAA football approach.

[Ben E Lou]

Georgia and Auburn first played in 1891. Tech and Georgia first played in 1893. Tech and Georgia got into a little spat in the 1920s and didn't play for several years, so I think the Auburn series has 108 meetings and the Tech series has either 97 or 99 meetings (depending on who you ask--Georgia doesn't count two games during WWII, because they whine that Tech used strong military students who whipped their asses).Point being, it has been 80ish years that the Dawgs and Jackets haven't scheduled on another, and 100ish years since the Dawgs and War Chickens haven't. That's why I found the "like once every 10 years" comment so absurd.

[cartman]

I'll preface my comments by admitting I've never tried to figure out an algorithm to handle football scheduling, and I'm sure the desire to have home and home arrangements, various differing conference schedule setups and varying rivalry game needs complicate things greatly.

That said, I wonder to what extent these problems could be relieved by allowing teams to play dummy Div 1-AA teams - i.e., if you have a hole in your schedule for whatever reason, fill where necessary with a randomly generated Div 1-AA team. Said teams would be bottom of the barrell in terms of talent compared to the regular Div 1-A teams, and you wouldn't need to worry about tracking those teams other than in the specific games they'd be needed to fill-in schedules. They could exist simply to fill out schedules with no need to track the stats of their players or the record of that team.

In other words, take the EA NCAA football approach.


Tell that to Stanford...

:D

[dawgfan]

Tell that to Stanford...

:D

Hey, I'm not saying it's necessarily an automatic win...there will be bad div 1-A teams that will occasionally get tripped up, a la Stanford/UC Davis.

[Buccaneer]

Point being, it has been 80ish years that the Dawgs and Jackets haven't scheduled on another, and 100ish years since the Dawgs and War Chickens haven't. That's why I found the "like once every 10 years" comment so absurd.
I wasn't talking about UGA-Auburn but strong rivalries in general. I'll repeat what I said. Some say that UGA-UF is the biggest rivalry. Do you code it so they meet every single year from now on at the neutral site? If you already have UGA-Auburn hardcoded (which is a given) plus OOC GT hardcoded and as some would argue, UF hardcoded, how much flexibility does that leave (I don't know myself, just asking)?

Another part of not having forever-coded rivalries is that if in the universe 50 years from now, the Sun Belt Conference, through great recruiting/prestige/academics, become the dominant conference. Wouldn't a good want to start scheduling them for a long-term series? If you are still stuck in rivalries from 50 years ago, that might be harder to do.

[Ben E Lou]

I wasn't talking about UGA-Auburn but strong rivalries in general. I'll repeat what I said. Some say that UGA-UF is the biggest rivalry. Do you code it so they meet every single year from now on at the neutral site? If you already have UGA-Auburn hardcoded (which is a given) plus OOC GT hardcoded and as some would argue, UF hardcoded, how much flexibility does that leave (I don't know myself, just asking)?Well, the Georgia-Florida game is a given (unless you have some sort of "limited conference movement" system as in FBCB), due to them both being in the Eastern Division. My hope/argument/dream would be to allow the option of a team having *two* rivals, as opposed to one. This exact issue exists for FSU, as they play Florida and Miami every year, and for one other situation that I can't recall at the moment. It is a peculiarity of having conferences with two divisions, when one of your traditional rivals is *not* in your conference, and another is in the opposite division of your conference.

Another part of not having forever-coded rivalries is that if in the universe 50 years from now, the Sun Belt Conference, through great recruiting/prestige/academics, become the dominant conference. Wouldn't a good want to start scheduling them for a long-term series? If you are still stuck in rivalries from 50 years ago, that might be harder to do.That's a valid point. If Troy St. or UAB became a national power, I could see one of them trying to set up a year-in, year-out with 'Bama or Auburn, but that could be problematic, and brings me to my next point...

One thing that could help this is to go to an automatic 12-game-a-year system, as is happening in the NCAA in all likelihood. I'm not sure if BBCF is set up for 11 or 12. The current issue is made more difficult, I would think, by a shorter schedule.

[gstelmack]

and for one other situation that I can't recall at the moment.
Air Force, Army, and Navy all play each other every year.

[dawgfan]

This brings up a good question about the independents - are they truly independant, or are they set up as their own conference? Will Notre Dame play USC, Michigan, Purdue and any of the other teams that are annual games? Not that I personally care much, but I'm sure quite a few will care.

[Buccaneer]

SkyDog, understood and I agree with your points.

Could the other rival you are thinking of be USC-UCLA and USC-ND?

[Buccaneer]

One thing that could help this is to go to an automatic 12-game-a-year system, as is happening in the NCAA in all likelihood.

I had thought it was already done? For UGA, that would mean 2-3 flexible opponents each year?

[TazFTW]

12 game schedule (13 for Hawaii) goes into effect for the 2006 season.

[Wolfpack]

This brings up a good question about the independents - are they truly independant, or are they set up as their own conference? Will Notre Dame play USC, Michigan, Purdue and any of the other teams that are annual games? Not that I personally care much, but I'm sure quite a few will care.

I think the "permanent table" that's been discussed up-thread by Arles (it's also mentioned in the chat on the GD website) is supposed to cover this. Apparently, you can set up permanent pairings that aren't considered "rivalry" games within this table. Each team gets one archrival and then this table can handle other more-or-less permanent matchups. The drawback to it is the fact that these games won't be considered true rivalries by the game. As I understand it, he devised this approach to handle mainly Notre Dame's "conference" slate of traditionally playing USC, BC, Michigan, MSU, Purdue, and Navy on a yearly basis, but it could be extended to include other matchups. I think this table also covers the Army-Navy-Air Force troika, as well.

Ideally, it should be used to help set up these cross-division rivalries when the original "rival" designation is already used, but I think the problem lies in the fact that the program takes into account the conference schedule algorithm first before consulting the permanent table for additional games. I'm guessing the side effect of this is the fact that in years where the scheduling algorithm takes two traditional rivals like FSU and Miami off the schedule, the permanent table would make them play a "ninth conference game" to account for their presence on the table. (Am I understanding this function correctly, Arlie?)

Ideally, of course, I'd like to have seen two different 12-team arrangements, one with permanent inter-division partners and one without, but Arlie says it's no good, so we're left to ponder other possibilities to circumvent this issue.

[Johnny93g]

any updates on the progress?
we gotta be getting close

[DaddyTorgo]

funny i was thinking about bumping this today to ask the same thing. even checked the GDS forums first and all.

[Johnny93g]

i think alot more people see this thread, and more info seems to come out in this thread, thats why i bumped it.

[Galaril]

Not a peep from Arlie anfd people are starting to get pretty restless over on the board

[sovereignstar]

Not a peep from Arlie anfd people are starting to get pretty restless over on the board

What's your fucking point?

[fantastic flying froggies]

Whenever I want a laugh, I go over at the GDS forum and read the infamous 'secrets' thread...

Lots of comedy in there...

[stevew]

Im guessing same people that are doing the whole "Is it ready yet?" shit will be the same ones doing the "This is a bug riddled POS" dance the day after release, if theres some stuff wrong with it. Me, I'll get it after the 2nd or 3rd patch, Im cool with waiting on something, I got other stuff on my plate to play.

Oh, and I cant wait for the first goddamn person who has issues with the game, due to them running Windows ME.

[Ben E Lou]

What's your fucking point?He has no point. He often has no point. It's part of his charm.

[Galaril]

He has no point. He often has no point. It's part of his charm.

thanks.

[gstelmack]

Im guessing same people that are doing the whole "Is it ready yet?" shit will be the same ones doing the "This is a bug riddled POS" dance the day after release, if theres some stuff wrong with it.
They'll be doing that even if there is nothing REALLY wrong with it. They'll find some nitpicky molehill to make a mountain out of.

[G-Man]

They'll be doing that even if there is nothing REALLY wrong with it. They'll find some nitpicky molehill to make a mountain out of.

be kissing butt and saying "wow!" this game is so great, even if it is unplayable !!"

IMO all we have is TPF to go by and tell me that wasn't a waste of money!?
:eek:

[Joe]

be kissing butt and saying "wow!" this game is so great, even if it is unplayable !!"

IMO all we have is TPF to go by and tell me that wasn't a waste of money!?
:eek:



:rolleyes:

[Noop]

So when does this game come out? I am looking forward to it...

[Hurst2112]

IMO all we have is TPF to go by and tell me that wasn't a waste of money!?

That's an honest statement. That's one of my fears with the game.

[Ben E Lou]

I've seen some signs that perhaps Arlie learned some valuable lessons from the problems with TPF and TDCB. How much has he learned and what will be different with this release? In the words of the late, great Gordon Solie: "That all remains to be seen."

[Arles]

The game is still in BETA and we are ironing out some of the remaining issues. As I said on the GDS forum, we will release a single-season demo before the final game is available for purchase so that people can try it out. I am not going to set a timetable for how long this final phase of BETA will take, but we are getting closer. I will try and do a better job here and on the GDS forums about providing updates as we finish up. I just tend to want to spend more time on the game instead of posting progress updates. But, perhaps I need to do a little more of the latter since we are slightly behind the original schedule.

[Johnny93g]

The game is still in BETA and we are ironing out some of the remaining issues. As I said on the GDS forum, we will release a single-season demo before the final game is available for purchase so that people can try it out. I am not going to set a timetable for how long this final phase of BETA will take, but we are getting closer. I will try and do a better job here and on the GDS forums about providing updates as we finish up. I just tend to want to spend more time on the game instead of posting progress updates. But, perhaps I need to do a little more of the latter since we are slightly behind the original schedule.

Thanks arlie, thats the kind of thing i was looking for

[fantastic flying froggies]

Oh, and I cant wait for the first goddamn person who has issues with the game, due to them running Windows ME.
That'll probably be me, BTW...:)

[GrantDawg]

Will this game run on Windows 3.1?

[sovereignstar]

lol

[kingnebwsu]

G'luck Arlie, hope it turns out well...can't wait to try the demo!!! :)

[jbmagic]

that secret thread at greydog forum is why Jim doesnt announce his next game he is working on until a couple of weeks before release.

that secret thread really got out of hand over there.

[stevew]

That'll probably be me, BTW...:)
Upgrade. Seriously. Right now.

[Buccaneer]

I have for years seen pre-release shit on game forum and that "secrets" thread is a good microcosm of what is bad about game forums. I can't believe there are still rabid, impatient idiots who just do not get it.

[Schmidty]

I have for years seen pre-release shit on game forum and that "secrets" thread is a good microcosm of what is bad about game forums. I can't believe there are still rabid, impatient idiots who just do not get it.

I think it probably has something to do with being cooped up in their parents' basements. That's probably not conducive to patience.

[cthomer5000]

After looking at a thread like that, does anyone see a reason for Jim to alter his approach on game annoucements?

[Samdari]

After looking at a thread like that, does anyone see a reason for Jim to alter his approach on game annoucements?

Absolutely. Hype sells games. Look at Lionhead. As much as Jim cannot stand to see anything negative written about him or the games, he would sell more games if he announced early and let a little hype build up. Those threads (which they really don't even have to read) complaining about games being late, they don't cost as many sales as missing out on the hype. He is dead wrong in thinking that policy does not hurt his business.

[JimboJ]

Absolutely. Hype sells games. Look at Lionhead. As much as Jim cannot stand to see anything negative written about him or the games, he would sell more games if he announced early and let a little hype build up. Those threads (which they really don't even have to read) complaining about games being late, they don't cost as many sales as missing out on the hype. He is dead wrong in thinking that policy does not hurt his business.

I agree completely. If you don't like threads about your game being late, then don't f@#$ing read them!! Just come here, announce what you're working on, and give a tentative release date. It gets people interested and talking about it. Then come back and post an update every couple of months, and then go back to working on the game. It will take about 5 minutes of his time, and should satisfy the majority of people.

[kcchief19]

Absolutely. Hype sells games. Look at Lionhead. As much as Jim cannot stand to see anything negative written about him or the games, he would sell more games if he announced early and let a little hype build up. Those threads (which they really don't even have to read) complaining about games being late, they don't cost as many sales as missing out on the hype. He is dead wrong in thinking that policy does not hurt his business. Hype is a double-edge sword. While it can help sell games in the short-term, it can also create unrealistic expectations, and nothing frustrates and annoys consumers more than unrealistic expectations. Look at Lionhead. Molyneaux is a hype genius, but I for one will take a wait-and-see on The Movies because my experience is that he fails to meet the hype, and that is a game I really hope is good. Hype can be deadly for an independent developer if that can't meet the hype.

I don't believe it was Jim's intention, but he actually has created hype by not saying anything. We have people on this forum begging him for a game. That doesn't happen often. Arlie's and Jim's approaches differ, but it they are comfortable with them and it works for them, so be it.

[Buccaneer]

A few points:

Matt said it perfectly: it is the unrealistic expectations that are the bane of publishing games (more so if you are an independent developer).

Jim doesn't wait until "2 weeks prior to release". If you remember your history, you would see that FOF4 and FOF5 were announce 4-5 weeks prior and I think TCY was announced earlier than that.

[rant on = Not directed at any one specifically]
What fucking difference does it make when the game is released???? Do you HAVE to play a game on a certain date else you'll turn into a f'n pumpkin? If the game was scheduled for release on, say, Nov. 8, all you are going to do between now and then is to build up unrealistic expectations in your mind and will be disappointed upon release. Wait for the demo and if you like it, fine, and if you don't, that's fine too. So get off of your fucking high horse in thinking they owe you something and believe that you are thinking your are doing the "market" some good whereas it really is all about you and your selfish, impatient, self-gratifying needs.
[/rant off]

[Samdari]

Hype is a double-edge sword. While it can help sell games in the short-term, it can also create unrealistic expectations, and nothing frustrates and annoys consumers more than unrealistic expectations. Look at Lionhead. Molyneaux is a hype genius, but I for one will take a wait-and-see on The Movies because my experience is that he fails to meet the hype, and that is a game I really hope is good. Hype can be deadly for an independent developer if that can't meet the hype.

I don't believe it was Jim's intention, but he actually has created hype by not saying anything. We have people on this forum begging him for a game. That doesn't happen often. Arlie's and Jim's approaches differ, but it they are comfortable with them and it works for them, so be it.

Jim does not need to hype to sell to the people on this forum, most are either already decided or can get tons of info about any Solecismic release from others here. Hype would be wasted on us. If he would be willing to participate in a little hype, he could probably reach a LOT of football fans who have no idea the game exists. We are all waiting for his game, but people unaware of FOF are not. They might be if GameSpot had done a hands on preview of TCY2 this summer.

Mind you, I am not actually trying to criticize Jim personally, just saying I think he'd sell more games if he announced earlier, and worked with some bigger game sites to generate press about his games. I think that people being unhappy with his games drives him absolutely nuts, and if he sells enough to have a happy life with his familly, and does not have to deal with that, more power to him. I don't take the lack of information personally.

As for you taking a "wait and see" attitude towards the movies, I think you are in the minority - the buzz for that game seems crazy. I have been burned by the hype for both B&W and Fable, and yet I see myself buying that on release day. Part of that is being so desperate for a new game (which I reallty want to take a minute to emphasize to Jim and Arlie) part is the thought of producing my own cartoon bunny porn. Besides, pointing to Lionhead as a reason not to hype is a bad example. Both B&W and Fable were considered disappointments by reviewers and buyers, but both sold huge numbers. If they had relied on reviews and word of mouth to sell games, they would not have.

[Ben E Lou]

Jim doesn't wait until "2 weeks prior to release". If you remember your history, you would see that FOF4 and FOF5 were announce 4-5 weeks prior and I think TCY was announced earlier than that.Actually, if you remember your history, there's been a trend toward a shorter planned announcement-to-release cycle in each of those three games. FOF5 was delayed due to an outside event, or it almost certainly would have been out 10-15 days earlier.

[Icy]

From a commercial standpoint there is no doubt that high hyped games in the right places make huge sales. Of course they bring also disappointed fans as not everybody can be happy. Imho that is a fact that can't be discussed as some hyped games sold a ton and keep doing it even after being totally crap.

Now about what is better for a company, well, if you want to sell a lot and expand your business you need to hype the game, if your goals is just to sell a few games to your unconditional fans and have all them telling you how good you are without any disappointed customer, then you don't need to hype. It all depends on your goals but from a business point, hype = more sales.

[Pumpy Tudors]

It seems to me - and I'm going to hope I'm very wrong - that when people try to determine what would really be best for Jim's business, their main reasoning is that they just reallyreally want to know what his next game is.

Come on. He has thought about his decision to do business a certain way, and whether anyone else agrees with it or not is immaterial. When it comes down to it, if people continue to mention it and he somehow changed his mind, what does everybody really get out of it? They get to find out what his next project is sooner. Ultimately, isn't that really the win condition here? If you find out what he's working on, you "win." Even if Jim's thinking is dead wrong, what does everybody else get out of it to keep pounding him about it? I would imagine that it just irks him, and all everybody else gets is a chance to get something off their chest... again... for the 13000th time.

What's the point?

[QuikSand]

It seems to me - and I'm going to hope I'm very wrong - that when people try to determine what would really be best for Jim's business, their main reasoning is that they just reallyreally want to know what his next game is.

Agreed.

[Ben E Lou]

Agreed.But ur a beta tester and your a e1337ist and u get 2 know what the game is and play it b4 of us get 2. U should just stfu. Just becuz u get 2 play the game and have fun with it doesn't mean that we shouldn't know what it is.

newayz, Jim PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE just tell us wtf the next game is!!! omfg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)

[WSUCougar]

Ben, that's two minutes in the box for...I dunno..."newbing."

[Bee]

That's probably true in some cases, but I suspect there's also a general desire to see Solecismic expand their market for several other reasons. People like backing someone that succeeds. If Jim is successful, he might expand his product line (more games every year would be a good thing). Jim's success could attract others into the genre increasing options for the consumers and also providing competition that might push the genre forward faster. While the "need to know what's coming" might be an immediate concern, I suspect some of those who posted are looking more long-term. Of course, I'm just guessing.

[Pumpy Tudors]

That's probably true in some cases, but I suspect there's also a general desire to see Solecismic expand their market for several other reasons. People like backing someone that succeeds. If Jim is successful, he might expand his product line (more games every year would be a good thing). Jim's success could attract others into the genre increasing options for the consumers and also providing competition that might push the genre forward faster. While the "need to know what's coming" might be an immediate concern, I suspect some of those who posted are looking more long-term. Of course, I'm just guessing.
If all of the above is indeed true, then I will be looking for the "tell us about your next project so your market will expand" threads immediately after Jim's next release.

[Bee]

If all of the above is indeed true, then I will be looking for the "tell us about your next project so your market will expand" threads immediately after Jim's next release.

Isn't that what we've seen for the past year since his last release...people wanting him to hype his next game and release information, claiming it will increase his business.

[JimboJ]

Someone please explain to me how releasing a statement such as "I am working on a new version of FOF that I hope to release sometime during the 2005 football season." creates any sort of unnecessary hype or unrealistic expectations. Or how it could do anything to negatively impact his business.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Isn't that what we've seen for the past year since his last release...people wanting him to hype his next game and release information, claiming it will increase his business.
To tell you the truth, I don't remember when all of it started. Was it right after the FOF2004 release, or was it later? Either way, I rarely get the feeling that increasing business is the motivation from some of those posts. I recall those posts taking that turn only after the "tell us now because everyone ELSE hypes their games" threads don't change Jim's mind.

Also, I apologize if my last post seemed like it was mocking your comment. I didn't mean it that way, but upon reading it again, it could have come off as such.

[Bee]

To tell you the truth, I don't remember when all of it started. Was it right after the FOF2004 release, or was it later? Either way, I rarely get the feeling that increasing business is the motivation from some of those posts. I recall those posts taking that turn only after the "tell us now because everyone ELSE hypes their games" threads don't change Jim's mind.

Also, I apologize if my last post seemed like it was mocking your comment. I didn't mean it that way, but upon reading it again, it could have come off as such.

Maybe you're right, I just seemed to remember "increasing market" being given as one of the reasons early on. Also, I'm not saying you're wrong...just that I think people want information and hype for several reasons, including what you stated. And I suspect different people have different main reasons for their interest in Jim's business. I was just trying to list some of the ones I've seen mentioned.

Don't worry about the post...I'm married, so I'm used to being mocked. ;)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Someone please explain to me how releasing a statement such as "I am working on a new version of FOF that I hope to release sometime during the 2005 football season." creates any sort of unnecessary hype or unrealistic expectations. Or how it could do anything to negatively impact his business.
From my experiences on message boards, I imagine a scenario like this:

1. Jim posts exactly what you described.
2. People ask about new features and design decisions.
3. Jim is not ready to release this information (if he were, he would have mentioned some of them in the announcement from #1).
4. People ask why the hell he announced the game in the first place, then.
5. As we get into October or November, people start asking how late into the season they can expect to see this game.
6. We have our own "secrets" thread here at FOFC! Joy!

I know that that doesn't directly address your concerns, but I think it's a fairly reasonable starting point. What I want to know is what you would get out of Jim making that type of announcement to begin with. In this case, I don't mean "you" in the general sense. I mean you personally. If he would have said that, what would that do for you? I'm curious.

[Bee]

Someone please explain to me how releasing a statement such as "I am working on a new version of FOF that I hope to release sometime during the 2005 football season." creates any sort of unnecessary hype or unrealistic expectations. Or how it could do anything to negatively impact his business.

I think the concern is that the more information he gives out, the more his "loyal" customer base will build up the game in their minds. I think Jim is concerned that he won't be able to meet the expectations that people build up and that might erode away his "die-hard" customer base. Not even knowing what game it will be discourages everyone from guessing as to what features, etc. will be included. If, for example, we knew that Jim was working on TCY2, I'd guess we'd have several threads discussing multiplayer, recruiting, etc. While some discussions like that take place anyway, it's not as concentrated...thus expectations aren't as high. At least, that's what I've gathered from Jim's statements in the past.

[QuikSand]

Someone please explain to me how releasing a statement such as "I am working on a new version of FOF that I hope to release sometime during the 2005 football season." creates any sort of unnecessary hype or unrealistic expectations. Or how it could do anything to negatively impact his business.

I don't claim any particular knowledge about the business plan, and how the announcement strategy affects revenues in the short term or long term.

But a look back at the announcement and build up to TCY would answer your question about "unrealistic expectations." Whether the expectations were realistic is perhaps up for debate... but TCY was announced in the fashion you suggest (a long lead time) and by the time of the game's actual release, the fans (including those here, for certain) were literally frothing at the mouth over a very, very long list of features and elements that wanted to see... and invariably many were vocally disappointed because one or two things they brought up over the course of months and months of discussion did not end up in the actual game.

I think Jim's perspective eventually became "If I give them lots of advance notice, they build in their minds all the details of the games that they would want to see... and any realistic product, especially from a one man show, is going to fall short of some of those expectations." The fairly immature reactions on this very site played no small role in him reaching thay conclusion, I'm sure. As a result - he basically shifted his approach to being: "When I'm just about done with a product, I will announce its impending release and some information about its features."

I realize that many people dislike this approach... but considering the tumult at just about every site being discussed in this thread that follows the protocol you and others suggest... it's almost making the case that Jim's appraoch is really wisest. Yes, he gets this "why not announce sooner" complaint over and over again (and again and again)... but that really pales in comparison to the vitriol thrown around with any developer who dares to make a general forecast and then miss it by ten minutes.

[Icy]

Someone please explain to me how releasing a statement such as "I am working on a new version of FOF that I hope to release sometime during the 2005 football season." creates any sort of unnecessary hype or unrealistic expectations. Or how it could do anything to negatively impact his business.Exactly the thoughts of lots of us.

About why we like to discuss what is better in our opinions for Jim business... well, don't we all come to this forum to discuss about things? don't we discuss about who should play in team A? Or who should draft a QB? Or why team X is underperforming and what we would do if were coaches? Or why a politic is doing stupid things that we wouldn't do?

We come to this board to discuss and express our opinion on different things, that doesn't mean that coach X will do what we want, or that politic Y will do what we want or that Jim will run his business as we want. All them will ignore us, but we enjoy and have the rights to discuss about it, as you could discuss about my way of running my business even if i don't agree, but i'm not a public person as politics, coaches, players and even game developers are so nobody has the interest on discussing about my bussines.

I think some of you are trying to overprotect Jim when he is more than able to defend himself if he needs to, or even ignore all our comments if he wants, but i doubt he needs the same guys always defending him. Those guys are as annoying imho that the ones complaining.

Of course that is my opinion, that is why we write in this forums and that is what we are going to keep doing, write about what we want or think. As long as we do it on a polite way, there is nothing wrong on criticizing anybody, even if that person is the guy who programs a game that we love.

[Pumpy Tudors]

For the record, I'm not trying to defend Jim. Honestly, I don't care if he announces his next project or his next 30. I also don't care if he doesn't. My issue is that I understand what Jim gets out of not announcing his games early anymore. I don't understand why people continue to complain about that. If mean, if you're a person who wants to know his next game, I'd like to know why. If I don't get that answer, that's fine. Consider it like a poll or something. If someone's comfortable answering, great. If not, no big deal to me.

[JimboJ]

In this case, I don't mean "you" in the general sense. I mean you personally. If he would have said that, what would that do for you? I'm curious.

For me, I have a limited amount of time to devote to a football sim. Because I have a busy life with lots of demands from work, kids, etc., I typically only have enough time to get immersed in one game. So far, that game has been FOF, which I have followed since the beginning. Right now, I'm at the point where I'm bored with the latest version of FOF, and I'm ready for something new.

If I knew there was a new version of FOF coming out, I would wait for that. If I knew there was not going to be a new version of FOF coming out this year, I would look elsewhere. So far this year, it hasn't been an issue, because there are no other choices. But I know there are at least 2 other games coming down the pike in the near future (Bowl Bound College Football and Maximum Football). When they come out, I'll need to make a decision on whether to switch to one of those or wait and see what the future of FOF holds. For some people, the issue is limited amount of money to spend on text sims, but for me its mostly time constraints. In any case, it would make the decision much easier if we knew what the future of FOF/TCY was.

So yeah, I guess I would like to know for selfish reasons, but I think there are alot of others that feel the same way.

[QuikSand]

Amusing to see these in a sentence together:

... near future ... Maximum Football...

Carry on.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think my question has been answered. Thanks.

[Ben E Lou]

But ur a beta tester and your a e1337ist and u get 2 know what the game is and play it b4 of us get 2. U should just stfu. Just becuz u get 2 play the game and have fun with it doesn't mean that we shouldn't know what it is.

newayz, Jim PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE just tell us wtf the next game is!!! omfg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rant.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:rant:%27%29)Dang. I forgot to put "alot" in there a time or two.

[GrantDawg]

Dang. I forgot to put "alot" in there a time or two.

It was still very good. Looks like the average Madden board post.

[Bee]

Dang. I forgot to put "alot" in there a time or two.

You also use know instead of no...

;)

[DaddyTorgo]

i would "expect" some sort of announcement from Jim if he has a new game coming out as soon as Arlie announces the BBCF demo. It would just make good business sense.

[st.cronin]

i would "expect" some sort of announcement from Jim if he has a new game coming out as soon as Arlie announces the BBCF demo. It would just make good business sense.

I have suspected for some time now that that would happen.

[Huckleberry]

I agree with all the people that are wondering what the point of all the whining is.

That's not to say that I don't understand where the constant questions are coming from. College football is my favorite sport to follow. I am looking forward to BBCF more than any other text sim I've ever anticipated, perhaps illogically so. I check for this thread and I check the Grey Dog Software forums daily for new information.

I guess the leap in logic I don't ever get to is why I would think that posting another message badgering them about release would actually speed up the process in any way. Then again, I also can see how people would consider that to be what a message board is for. The only decent point on the "secrets" thread on GDS is that they themselves instruct you to post on their forums with any questions you might have. Of course, that point was made rather poorly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I felt like posting something on this thread because I want this damn game to be released already! ;)

[WSUCougar]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I felt like posting something on this thread because I want this damn game to be released already! ;)
I feel your pain.

[Blade6119]

While i love college football, text sims, and tcy...i feel like the only one who remember Total pro football...i just cant possibly be excited for this game...while im happy its being made as i feel it will pressure jim a bit(not much), i just really think this is going to be TPF2...nice graphics and nice idea, but just not there...ill be happy if im proven wrong, but until that day im dreading the release of this product if any people decide this is the game to try out text sims

[bhlloy]

While i love college football, text sims, and tcy...i feel like the only one who remember Total pro football...i just cant possibly be excited for this game...while im happy its being made as i feel it will pressure jim a bit(not much), i just really think this is going to be TPF2...nice graphics and nice idea, but just not there...ill be happy if im proven wrong, but until that day im dreading the release of this product if any people decide this is the game to try out text sims

Or maybe Arlie has learned from the mistakes of TPF (remember it was his first football sim and a first generation sim) and will produce a decent product... or is there something you know that the rest of us don't?

I just don't see the point in ripping a product before you have any idea what it is going to be like.

And why would this pressure Jim at all? Either TCY2 is in the pipeline and Jim has been working on it, or it isn't and he hasn't. Seems like Jim is usually not pressured by many outside forces to decide what he is going to work on next. Correct me by all means if I'm wrong ;)

[Blade6119]

I think its certainly our right to rip a product before its release...just as i would assume any rts from a company like blizzard to be top notch, you can expect products to be poor based on a company's track record in that genre...TPF is their track record, why should i excpect it to go from horrible to great?? Think of one of the worst games you have ever played, and imaine that company making another game in the same genre...would you really have an open mind to it?

The reason i said a little is for business purposes...jim makes his entire living off his games...he feeds his family off fof and tcy...the one thing jim does have is market share, as tpf(as i just said) didnt take any of fof's share and tcy owns the college football text sim market...on the chance this game does very well, or whoever plays it just likes it better then a tcy, that takes potential profits out of jim's bank account...many will buy both or none, but its the customers who will only buy 1 that matter...and with the long layoff since tcy i see this being a wonderful timing for grey dog...they can take market share...i dont think its smart to give it up, as whenever he does release tcy2(if ever), its just less money he will make...Bowl Bound wont bring the madden gamers in, it will steal the TCY fans..in my mind thats pressure

[Buccaneer]

Actually, if you remember your history, there's been a trend toward a shorter planned announcement-to-release cycle in each of those three games. FOF5 was delayed due to an outside event, or it almost certainly would have been out 10-15 days earlier.
But it was still 4-5 week out, wasn't it? You mentioned in a PM to me last year or the year before expressing frustration that people still were acting irrational even with such lead times, but I don't have that PM anymore. Doesn't matter.

[JimboJ]

While i love college football, text sims, and tcy...i feel like the only one who remember Total pro football...i just cant possibly be excited for this game...while im happy its being made as i feel it will pressure jim a bit(not much), i just really think this is going to be TPF2...nice graphics and nice idea, but just not there...ill be happy if im proven wrong, but until that day im dreading the release of this product if any people decide this is the game to try out text sims

I think that would be awesome if Bowl Bound turned out to be TPF2. TPF was a very good game for it's first incarnation. Yes it had some bugs and crashes, but there was a lot of potential there. If all the problems were fixed and some additional features added, I'd be very happy with that.

[dervack]

I think that would be awesome if Bowl Bound turned out to be TPF2. TPF was a very good game for it's first incarnation. Yes it had some bugs and crashes, but there was a lot of potential there. If all the problems were fixed and some additional features added, I'd be very happy with that.
I agree. I hate FOF and only play TCY because it's the only college football game on the market. As a matter of fact, because Arlie was lacking in new info, I emailed viatech to get the license back for TCY that I hadn't played in 2 years. I hope to god that BBCF plays somewhat like TPF at least, because that will intrest me more than any FOF game ever will.

[lynchjm24]

I read the secrets thread. I'm a little disappointed. It's a trainwreck, but it's really got just so few people arguing that it got a little boring.

[Cringer]

Ha, I have barely been on here for the last 3 weeks. This is the one thing I have been worried I would miss, the announcement of this game. Glad I haven't missed it yet actually....kind of.

So, people still bitching and complaining?

They need something to distract them I have some yard work I am falling on behind that they can do.

[Gary Gorski]

I think its certainly our right to rip a product before its release...just as i would assume any rts from a company like blizzard to be top notch, you can expect products to be poor based on a company's track record in that genre...TPF is their track record, why should i excpect it to go from horrible to great?? Think of one of the worst games you have ever played, and imaine that company making another game in the same genre...would you really have an open mind to it?



I just want to jump in here and say that this is incorrect - the company that produced TPF is not the company that is producing BBCF. Yes, the developer of BBCF is the same as TPF but there's also at least one major factor that is different in the process as well. Look at the releases of .400 SS from TDCB, TPF, TPB and TEW and compare them to the releases of GDS TPB 2005, Wrestling Spirit and TEW 2005. IMO we're 3/3 with solid releases, very enjoyable games and very playable games on release whereas the track record for releases at .400 SS is very well documented unfortunately not for being very good.

Maybe you haven't tried any of the games from GDS or paid attention to their releases but things are MUCH different at GDS than they were at .400 SS so I hope that you'll look as much or more at what we've done lately as you do at what happened in the past with another company. I have no doubt that BBCF and TCB will prove to be great releases as well. Of course you're welcomed to wait and see but I hope you'll at least give us a chance to show that things have changed based on our 3 releases from Grey Dog Software in the past year.

[Ben E Lou]

It was still very good. Looks like the average Madden board post....or the average PM I get from my middle school kids.

Oh, wait...

[Johnny93g]

I just want to jump in here and say that this is incorrect - the company that produced TPF is not the company that is producing BBCF. Yes, the developer of BBCF is the same as TPF but there's also at least one major factor that is different in the process as well. Look at the releases of .400 SS from TDCB, TPF, TPB and TEW and compare them to the releases of GDS TPB 2005, Wrestling Spirit and TEW 2005. IMO we're 3/3 with solid releases, very enjoyable games and very playable games on release whereas the track record for releases at .400 SS is very well documented unfortunately not for being very good.

Maybe you haven't tried any of the games from GDS or paid attention to their releases but things are MUCH different at GDS than they were at .400 SS so I hope that you'll look as much or more at what we've done lately as you do at what happened in the past with another company. I have no doubt that BBCF and TCB will prove to be great releases as well. Of course you're welcomed to wait and see but I hope you'll at least give us a chance to show that things have changed based on our 3 releases from Grey Dog Software in the past year.

To be honest, i havent given Greydog a chance. I know your a different company then 400, but to me, and many consumers, it the same thing with a new name, logo.....I bought TDCB, and TPB from .400, and got bored of both.....I havent even tried the demo's of any greydog games, and maybe thats cuz of the 400 fiasco....I really want to give you a chance with BBCF, but my interest in that dwindle's every day...if you released sunday, after the ND/USC game, i would have bought immediatly, but the later it gets, the less chance i buy

[Buccaneer]

...or the average PM I get from my middle school kids.

Oh, wait...
But your survey says that such communications are all the rage. Madden-speak or JrHighPM-speak is the future, man, none of this articulate old people stuff.

:)

[WSUCougar]

Not trying to slight anyone, but personally I find some of these comments rather silly. It's like you are not going to give this game a chance out of spite. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion and can spend your money on whichever games you wish (or don't wish), but in the end won't it come down to how well the game is received? Or will you really say, "This game's ancestor is TPF, so I refuse to even give it a sniff" or "They released it too late, game be damned."

[MizzouRah]

Considering TPB, this game is almost a "must buy" for me.

[gstelmack]

Considering TPB, this game is almost a "must buy" for me.
Agreed. Most of the "it's ancestor is TPF" people forget that TPB 2005 is considered a fantastic pro basketball sim. I think Gary is spot-on with his comments.

[Icy]

Considering TPB, this game is almost a "must buy" for me.
Agree, ppl should make their mind looking at the game features and playing the demo when it's available, but if you want to look at company past releases, look at GDS games like TPB2k5 and TEW2k5 not at 400ss.

[Bee]

Agreed. Most of the "it's ancestor is TPF" people forget that TPB 2005 is considered a fantastic pro basketball sim. I think Gary is spot-on with his comments.

TPB 2005 was developed mostly by Gary, where BB is being developed mostly by Arlie, who's last product was TPF...so I can see where tying it more to TPF than TPB makes sense. That being said, I think it's silly not to give the game a good look when the demo is released.

[Samdari]

TPB 2005 was developed mostly by Gary, where BB is being developed mostly by Arlie, who's last product was TPF...so I can see where tying it more to TPF than TPB makes sense. That being said, I think it's silly not to give the game a good look when the demo is released.

I think it is silly not to consider BBCF in the context of TPF.

But Gary makes a good point. The games released so far by GreyDog are mostly second generations or descendents of games released by .400 (I know, we are not supposed to notice that). In almost all cases, the first generation games from .400 were poorly recieved (although at least TPF and TDCB were decent games in their final iteration) but the greydog games were great improvements over their .400 ancestors. This fact gives me great hope for bowl bound.

I also know for a fact I will be buying it on release day - in the spirit of encouraging further development in this genre, and independent development in general, and as a kind of baby gift (if it is released before his first birthday).

[Bee]

I think it is silly not to consider BBCF in the context of TPF.

But Gary makes a good point. The games released so far by GreyDog are mostly second generations or descendents of games released by .400 (I know, we are not supposed to notice that). In almost all cases, the first generation games from .400 were poorly recieved (although at least TPF and TDCB were decent games in their final iteration) but the greydog games were great improvements over their .400 ancestors. This fact gives me great hope for bowl bound.

I also know for a fact I will be buying it on release day - in the spirit of encouraging further development in this genre, and independent development in general, and as a kind of baby gift (if it is released before his first birthday).

Yep, I agree....except about the baby gift thing. ;)

[MalcPow]

I think it is silly not to consider BBCF in the context of TPF.

But Gary makes a good point. The games released so far by GreyDog are mostly second generations or descendents of games released by .400 (I know, we are not supposed to notice that). In almost all cases, the first generation games from .400 were poorly recieved (although at least TPF and TDCB were decent games in their final iteration) but the greydog games were great improvements over their .400 ancestors. This fact gives me great hope for bowl bound.

I also know for a fact I will be buying it on release day - in the spirit of encouraging further development in this genre, and independent development in general, and as a kind of baby gift (if it is released before his first birthday).

I agree with basically all of this. The people at GD definitely seem to have learned from mistakes made with previous companies, and may have ironed out an effective process for developing and releasing solid games. I'll be buying on day one as well, not so much out of "faith in the company," but out of the same spirit you're talking about. I just don't have the same sort of extreme disappointment in past releases that would really make me not give something a chance as well. But it is funny to watch the tightrope walk of "this is a completely different company" talk, maybe it's necessary I don't know, but not taking some cues from TPF for ideas of how BBCF might turn out doesn't make much sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

obligatory weekly bump!

[Johnny93g]

obligatory weekly bump!

tease

[DaddyTorgo]

i just keep hoping if it stays up here that Arlie will pity us and announce the demo release already. hehe

[st.cronin]

why all the secrets?

[Buccaneer]

why all the secrets?
Because one cannot accurately predict the future?

[vex]

Because one cannot accurately predict the future?
:D

[Flasch186]

how's the AI?

[Joe]

how's the AI?

thats just a little hard to tell, without the game or demo being released yet.


:cool:

[dervack]

Well, Arlie has released a pro game in December, what's the wager that the College game gets released in November?

[Flasch186]

thats just a little hard to tell, without the game or demo being released yet.


:cool:

i dunno, if the AI isnt better than 1,2, and 3 Ill be seriously dissappointed.

[henry296]

i dunno, if the AI isnt better than 1,2, and 3 Ill be seriously dissappointed.

I think you are in the wrong thread... are you asking about Civ or Bowl Bound?

[Flasch186]

I think you are in the wrong thread... are you asking about Civ or Bowl Bound?

Sorry...

[Ben E Lou]

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="6" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap"> Arlie Rahn (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/member.php?u=23) http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif <script type="text/javascript"> vbmenu_register("postmenu_50406", true); </script>
GDS Developer
</td> <td width="100%"> </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 276


</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <!-- / user info --><!-- message, attachments, sig --> <!-- icon and title --> http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
<hr style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Celts-Sonics Fan
So what if they had said the game will be out by the 30th of September? Would that be specific? I think so. So how is that any different than a 3rd quarter release? So your argument that it is just a "place holder" lacks substance, IMO.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

I think this is legit criticism. We we started development, we targeted late in the third quarter as a release date. In the development and beta process, we have had issues and changes in direction (many directly related to great ideas in the forums) that have caused this date to slip. It is unfortunate and I wish it would not have happened, but we have decided to miss our quarter release date than rush out what we had at that point.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Ok, I am past the lateness part of this game. I have accepted that it will be out when they are ready to release it, hopefully by Thanksgiving or Christmas.
I will probably purchase this game ( as I have TDCB, TPF and TPB) when it comes out. My only concerns are that the game be relatively bug free (ie. playable) and that the interface is less difficult than TDCB and TPF. Though they are pretty to look at they are not very user friendly, as TPB and OOTP are. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

These are the goals we are also striding for in the beta.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Oh and one last comment, could you tell me when the game will be released? http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

When it is completed http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif
<!-- / message --><!-- controls --> http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50406)

[KWhit]

Hmmm... I wonder what the changes in direction were?

[Johnny93g]

Definatly losing interest

[moriarty]

Definatly losing interest

You'd probably lose interest even faster if they released a half-baked product.

[Johnny93g]

You'd probably lose interest even faster if they released a half-baked product.

im not saying to release whatever they got....im fine with Arlie making it the best it can be, thats what he should do, im just saying im losing interest....hope thats ok with you

[sovereignstar]

Definatly losing interest

wrong

Definatly...............................................................................losing.................................................................................................interest


Correct.

[moriarty]

im not saying to release whatever they got....im fine with Arlie making it the best it can be, thats what he should do, im just saying im losing interest....hope thats ok with you

You have my permission.

[sovereignstar]

im not saying to release whatever they got....im fine with Arlie making it the best it can be, thats what he should do, im just saying im losing interest....hope thats ok with you

But who really gives a fuck about whether or not you're losing intrest? Really? You wrote that to get a reaction and a reaction you got.

[KWhit]

Lighten up, Francis.

And you too, Francis.

[Cringer]

It's not making me lose interest, just giving me hemorroids.

[Johnny93g]

But who really gives a fuck about whether or not you're losing intrest? Really? You wrote that to get a reaction and a reaction you got.

who really gives a fuck about what you think about my post...you wrote what you wrote to get a reacation...its a message board, sharing opinions and such...

[WSUCougar]

This may constitute the lamest flame war ever. But then again, who really gives a f**k what I think?

[Dunleavy]

i just heard of the game today, but it's not at the web store for purchase, what's up with that?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Definatly losing interestDefinitely misspelling "definitely."

[MalcPow]

This may constitute the lamest flame war ever. But then again, who really gives a f**k what I think?

Stop trying to get a reaction. :D

[vex]

i just heard of the game today, but it's not at the web store for purchase, what's up with that?
It's not out yet.

[Antmeister]

This may constitute the lamest flame war ever. But then again, who really gives a f**k what I think?

LOL!!!.....but who really give a f**k what I am laughing about.

[Dunleavy]

It's not out yet.

thanks, i just figured a game announced in april would be out by now, but i'm sure they have there reasons

[Leonidas]

So will the game be out in time for the Rose Bowl or will they wait for Spring Training to start?

[Ksyrup]

thanks, i just figured a game announced in april would be out by now, but i'm sure they have there reasons
Jim, is that you? :p

[GrantDawg]

Jim, is that you? :p

Joe Stallings. :D

[moriarty]

thanks, i just figured a game announced in april would be out by now, but i'm sure they have there reasons

Reread the 14 pages of this thread focusing specifically on the comparisons to TPF and it's release, and I think you'll understand some of "their" reasons for making sure the game is ready for release.

But hey, consider yourself lucky. If you just found out about it, and least you haven't been waiting since April.

:)

[MizzouRah]

thanks, i just figured a game announced in april would be out by now, but i'm sure they have there reasons
When does announcing a game constitute when it comes out? Especially when it's a text game. Arlie's not EA. :)

[Rockstar]

When does announcing a game constitute when it comes out? Especially when it's a text game. Arlie's not EA. :)
You just posted message 666. Devil!! Satan!!!!!! LOL.
{ Insert Inner Childs evil laugh}

[Easy Mac]

You just had reply #666.....

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

You just posted message 666. Devil!! Satan!!!!!! LOL.
{ Insert Inner Childs evil laugh}
He's in good company. My cell phone number ends in 666. I'm sure some around these parts would say that fits. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[dawgfan]

This thread is just further proof that software companies can't win.

If you put out a game to meet a self-imposed deadline, you get slammed by people for the inevitable bugs that are a result and the need for subsequent patches to fix things.

If you choose to postpone your release in order to quash bugs and have a solid build, you get slammed for not putting your game out quick enough to satisfy your prospective customers.

Hang tough Arlie - release the game when it's ready; don't rush things just to please some impatient whiners. As Jim has pointed out, this isn't a market that requires a release right at the start of the corresponding sport's season in order to sell well during the lifetime of the product. College football fans will still want to have a good sim on the market regardless of when you actually are ready to release it.

[moriarty]

This thread is just further proof that software companies can't win.

If you put out a game to meet a self-imposed deadline, you get slammed by people for the inevitable bugs that are a result and the need for subsequent patches to fix things.

If you choose to postpone your release in order to quash bugs and have a solid build, you get slammed for not putting your game out quick enough to satisfy your prospective customers.

Hang tough Arlie - release the game when it's ready; don't rush things just to please some impatient whiners. As Jim has pointed out, this isn't a market that requires a release right at the start of the corresponding sport's season in order to sell well during the lifetime of the product. College football fans will still want to have a good sim on the market regardless of when you actually are ready to release it.


I'm not sure he's getting slammed. I mean a few people will complain about the delay, but some folks will complain about anything. (Note: I haven't been over to .400 studios forums so maybe I'm missing out).

Otherwise i agree w/ you and hey ... we're already up to 14 pages in this thread and the game hasn't even come out, that can't be bad for publicity/awareness of the game.

[dawgfan]

I'm not sure he's getting slammed. I mean a few people will complain about the delay, but some folks will complain about anything. (Note: I haven't been over to .400 studios forums so maybe I'm missing out).

I guess I'm referring to the kind of whining typified by posts like Johnny93g's. I would also be willing to bet money that GreyDog's boards have some whiners there as well bitching about "When is the game going to come out? I want it now!"

[Bee]

I'm not sure he's getting slammed. I mean a few people will complain about the delay, but some folks will complain about anything. (Note: I haven't been over to .400 studios forums so maybe I'm missing out).



I agree. Other than a couple nutcases, I haven't really seen much complaining about the delays. I've seen more people complaining about the complaints than anything else. You have to expect a few idiots who are going to try to start flame wars over the release, but that's the case on just about every subject.

[Bee]

I guess I'm referring to the kind of whining typified by posts like Johnny93g's. I would also be willing to bet money that GreyDog's boards have some whiners there as well bitching about "When is the game going to come out? I want it now!"

I don't consider those posts complaints. That's just impatient folks wanting news and trying to control their excitement. I was probably the same way when I was 16. :D

[Dunleavy]

This thread is just further proof that software companies can't win.

If you put out a game to meet a self-imposed deadline...If you choose to postpone your release...Hang tough Arlie - release the game when it's ready; don't rush things...

1. software companies can win.

2. it would appear to me the only thing they rushed was the announcement of the game far before it was ready, yes people are going to complain, a good tease can test anyone's patanice

[moriarty]

1. software companies can win.

2. it would appear to me the only thing they rushed was the announcement of the game far before it was ready, yes people are going to complain, a good tease can test anyone's patanice

Oh, boy ... go find the threads where people were bashing on Jim for NOT releasing an announcement of the next FOF/TCY game. You can't please all the people no matter what you do.

[Cringer]

Oh, boy ... go find the threads where people were bashing on Jim for NOT releasing an announcement of the next FOF/TCY game. You can't please all the people no matter what you do.

You are 100% correct.

I do not mind this waiting, announced before hand or not. But I am going to be pissed as possible when this game or a new Solecismic game comes out, who the hell do they think they are putting a game out? Now I have to spend time playing it? Annoy my family with my time on the computer. Forget to work out. Forget to do yard/house work. Stay up late when I should be sleeping because I have to work. Jerks! My life is much better without these games. :mad:

[Johnny93g]

I guess I'm referring to the kind of whining typified by posts like Johnny93g's. I would also be willing to bet money that GreyDog's boards have some whiners there as well bitching about "When is the game going to come out? I want it now!"

hey, fuck you too dude...i said im losing interest, which is true, but i also think Arlie should make the best product possible....he can't win until it comes out.

[Ben E Lou]

hey, fuck you too dude.A week in the box outghta calm you down.

[Joe]

A week in the box outghta calm you down.


Only if the game is released by next week.


:D

[Ben E Lou]

Only if the game is released by next week.


:DWell-played.

FWIW, I don't think he's gonna accept a boxing...

[ice4277]

But who will fill the board's quota of ellipses...

[dawgfan]

2. it would appear to me the only thing they rushed was the announcement of the game far before it was ready, yes people are going to complain, a good tease can test anyone's patanice

Yes, right - how dare they announce what they're working on early in the development process! They should all be like Solecismic who only announces a game just before it's ready to be released. After all, that method makes everyone happy...

Seriously, I simply don't sympathize with this kind of thinking because it's simply immature impatience on the part of those complaining. Maybe Arlie miscalculated on how long it would take him to finish the game, but that doesn't justify people complaining about the time between his announcement and whenever it does get released. It would be one thing if Arlie had no track record and there was the possibility this was all just vaporware, but we know that's not true.

Arlie will finish the game, and when it's ready to his satisfaction for the general public to pay for it, he'll release it. Until then, chill out.

Fortunately, I think most people here are fine with waiting until it's ready. Sure, I'd love to be playing a good new college football sim right now, but I'd rather wait and have it be stable and with a good, well-tested AI than have him rush it and have the game suffer because of it.

[Ben E Lou]

Yes, right - how dare they announce what they're working on early in the development process! They should all be like Solecismic who only announces a game just before it's ready to be released. After all, that method makes everyone happy...

Seriously, I simply don't sympathize with this kind of thinking because it's simply immature impatience on the part of those complaining. Maybe Arlie miscalculated on how long it would take him to finish the game, but that doesn't justify people complaining about the time between his announcement and whenever it does get released. It would be one thing if Arlie had no track record and there was the possibility this was all just vaporware, but we know that's not true.

Arlie will finish the game, and when it's ready to his satisfaction for the general public to pay for it, he'll release it. Until then, chill out.

Fortunately, I think most people here are fine with waiting until it's ready. Sure, I'd love to be playing a good new college football sim right now, but I'd rather wait and have it be stable and with a good, well-tested AI than have him rush it and have the game suffer because of it.Very, very well said.

[MizzouRah]

Yep, that about sums up how I feel.

[Buccaneer]

Yep.

[JeeberD]

But who will fill the board's quota of ellipses...
That's why I'm here... :D

[Dutch]

Dunleavy...not to be confused with Hell Atlantic.

[vex]

...

[Dunleavy]

Door 1, be surprised by a brand new game!!!

Door 2, be teased by the TBD relase of a game

to each his own...

[Blade6119]

Anyone else notice on their screenshots page that the comments for the bottom two pics(recruiting and post season) should be switched...it looks like an error to me...but its 3 AM so im not sure

[Antmeister]

Well I, for one, am glad they are waiting. I went through the TPF fiasco and since they became Grey Dog, they have definitely taken a different approach to things. I can't wait to see people impressions are going to be about this game.

[jbmagic]

Arlie has revealed what offensive and defensive formation will be in the game


Here are the offensive formations you can use:

Double TE:
1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE

Flexbone:
1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WR, 1 WB (wingback)

Goal line:
1 RB, 1 FB, 3 TE

I Form:
1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WR, 1 TE

I Form Big:
1 RB, 1 FB, 1 WR, 2 TE

Pro Set:
1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WR, 1 TE

Quads:
1 RB, 4 WR

Shotgun:
1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE

Singleback:
1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE

Spread:
5 WR

Strong:
1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WR, 1 TE

Trips:
1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE

Weak:
1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WR, 1 TE

Wing T:
1 RB, 1 FB, 1 WR, 1 WB, 1 TE

Wishbone:
1 RB, 1 FB, 1 WR, 1 WB, 1 TE

Defensive formations:
4-3:
4 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 2 S

3-4:
3 DL, 4 LB, 2 CB, 2 S

4-6:
4 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 2 S

3-3-5:
3 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 3 S

5-2:
5 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 2 S

4-4:
4 DL, 4 LB, 2 CB, 1 S

4-2-5:
4 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 3 S

Nickel:
4 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 2 S, 1 DB

Dime:
4 DL, 1 LB, 2 CB, 2 S, 2 DB

Goal Line:
5 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 S

Obviously, each formation will have slightly different positioning as well.

[DaddyTorgo]

sweet, that makes me think that maybe the game is close!

[sovereignstar]

sweet, that makes me think that maybe the game is close!

Why?

[DaddyTorgo]

Why?
well, according to something i just saw over on the GDS forums (i could go cut n paste the type but i don't care that much) basically the game has entered the final stage of beta testing.

[Ben E Lou]

well, according to something i just saw over on the GDS forums (i could go cut n paste the type but i don't care that much) basically the game has entered the final stage of beta testing.So, which one is it, the fact that the formations have been mentioned, or what you read at the GDS forums? You seemed to switch gears midstream there. :confused:

[DaddyTorgo]

So, which one is it, the fact that the formations have been mentioned, or what you read at the GDS forums? You seemed to switch gears midstream there. :confused: well both actually. i posted that before i read the GDS forums, just figuring that the fact that there was a list of FORMATIONS released was a good clue that the game was pretty close, but after reading the forums and seeing that the game was in the final steps of beta (i think arlie said over there that there are just a couple little things he wants to give a little longer testing to) i decided to go with that as my reasoning.

Originally Posted by Arlie Rahn (on GDS board)

The BETA is going very well and we are in the process of entering our final testing phase. There are a few areas I want to get more validation on and it will not be released until I feel good about them.

[WrongWay]

Originally Posted by Arlie Rahn (on GDS board)

The BETA is going very well and we are in the process of entering our final testing phase. There are a few areas I want to get more validation on and it will not be released until I feel good about them.
LOL I think I remember reading that same post about the Beta going very well over at the Maximum Football forums in November too.

That would be November of 2004 if your keeping score. :D

[Swaggs]

Sweet. The 3-3-5 defense. :)

[JeeberD]

I HATE the 3-3-5... :mad:

[Ragone]

Beginning to think baylor football might be bowl bound before this game comes out ;)

[Galaril]

Beginning to think baylor football might be bowl bound before this game comes out ;)


Me ,too

[mauchow]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7625

More news.. Looking good.

[Emiliano]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7625

More news.. Looking good.
Wow, the history section seems very nice. I like it.

[MizzouRah]

This game looks and sounds fantastic.

[jbmagic]

This game looks and sounds fantastic.



you said the samething with Total Pro Football too :)

[MizzouRah]

you said the samething with Total Pro Football too :)
Find a quote. I said that about TPB, but I don't remember saying that about TPF.

I am getting old though. LOL...

[BYU 14]

you said the samething with Total Pro Football too :)

This time he means it though......;)

[dervack]

Find a quote.

Oh, I bet he already has it bookmarked.

[MizzouRah]

Oh, I bet he already has it bookmarked.
:D

[Riggins44]

Well, atleast we know what Arlie's next release will be. :D

[Anthony]

that's friggin impressive. so much for having to sacrifice realism/stats for eye candy.

[moriarty]

What the hell, the punting averages are way off. This game sucks ... hope they don't release it with a half finished punting game. Wait, they suck for not releasing it at the beginning of the football season. :D

Seriously, got my fingers crossed for this one. It's looking/sounding sweet.

[Icy]

This thread started today could interest you...
http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58088 (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58088#post58088)

[Icy]

Ok, the beta testing team just got the permission from Arlie to to make any comment on the game and answer questions from now. I have the honor of being part of it and the hardest part has been to keep my mouth closed all this months, so if any of you have anything to ask, just shoot and i'll try to answer :)

[GrantDawg]

The stats are pretty accurate since the first beta versions. Arlie just had to tweak them for some minor corrections like Skydog posted. I simed 10 seasons 2 days ago with one of the latest beta releases and nothing was weird stats wise.

About the match pbp, wow it's amazing if you like to calls play and/or watch them being executed. Of course you don't see the players moving, but the formations and plays are drawn with dots (ovals better said) and colored arrows depending on the play result at the same time than the text pbp is displayed.Man, that gets me excited. Even though Arlie completely dropped the ball by not allowing you to hire coaches to start your career, this has got me wanting to buy again.
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[stevew]

Are there 2 point conversions?

[Anthony]

any way to have some type of head to head play? not likely, and it won't play a factor in me getting/not getting the game, just wondering.

[moriarty]

Even though Arlie completely dropped the ball by not allowing you to hire coaches to start your career, this has got me wanting to buy again.


Completely dropped the ball? :confused: Seems like a pretty minor deal to me, but to each their own I guess.

[Anthony]

Completely dropped the ball? :confused: Seems like a pretty minor deal to me, but to each their own I guess.

this is rather minor to me as well.

[GrantDawg]

Completely dropped the ball? :confused: Seems like a pretty minor deal to me, but to each their own I guess.
Really? How many coaches coming in aren't allowed to hire their coaches? A head coach is only as good as cordinators. It is a major part of the game. I don't see how anyone can't see that.

[GrantDawg]

BTW, demo up.

[Icy]

- Yes there are 2 points conversions, don't judge this game based on TPF, it's way way better.

- No head to head play.

[moriarty]

Really? How many coaches coming in aren't allowed to hire their coaches? A head coach is only as good as cordinators. It is a major part of the game. I don't see how anyone can't see that.

If you're asking me if it's important in "real life" I agree with you.

If you're asking me if it matters in a game whether I start out with coordinators or have to hire my own from scratch, it really is a small deal to me. In fact if I had to choose, I would rather start with some coaches/coordinators so I don't have to micromanage right off the bat if I don't choose to do so.

I'm not taking a shot at you or your desires for a game, just thought it was a bit strongly worded based on my own expectations.

[Ksyrup]

Icy, I'm sure you did a fanatastic job as a beta tester, but if you use the word "match" to describe a football game one more time, I'll keel you (to borrow the phrase)! ;)

[GrantDawg]

If you're asking me if it's important in "real life" I agree with you.

If you're asking me if it matters in a game whether I start out with coordinators or have to hire my own from scratch, it really is a small deal to me. In fact if I had to choose I would rather start with some coaches/coordinators so I don't have to micromanage off the bat if I don't choose to do so.

I'm not taking a shot at you or your desires for a game, just thought it was a bit strongly worded based on my own expectations.
You see, it is important to me for the game to feel real. And when people say "it isn't important" it tells programers to not make adjustments that are important. I really don't get how you can see that is "micro-managing." What the heck else does a coach do but make sure he has the right staff around him? That is one of the biggest part of college coaching, and this is a college coaching sim, right?

[Anthony]

ok, when do we start talking about a BBCF MP league? shotgun Miami.

[sabotai]

Not bashing the game or Arlie or anything (kind of feel the need to throw that out there), but if you're trying to decide how accurate a sim is at producing realistic results, simple averages are really not the way to go. Of course, not being on the beta and not being Arlie, I have no idea if they are using better statistics to look at the stats to see if the game produces realistic results play to play.

For instance, if the average of yards per run is 4.00, let's just say in real life, the vast majority of runs are 2-6 yards. That would get you at the 4 per carry. But, if in the game, it's producing a ton of -2 and 10 yard runs, you get at the same average. That's an intentially extreme example just to show the unreliability of averages. I highly doubt that Arlie's game is doing that. All I'm doing is just putting out there a sign of caution. Don't get all giddy over averages, it's not a very good stat for judging accuracy.

Having said that, with the delay of the release, it looks like Arlie has learned from past mistakes and is putting all he can into it and not rushing it out. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about the game.

[Anthony]

You see, it is important to me for the game to feel real. And when people say "it isn't important" it tells programers to not make adjustments that are important. I really don't get how you can see that is "micro-managing." What the heck else does a coach do but make sure he has the right staff around him? That is one of the biggest part of college coaching, and this is a college coaching sim, right?

that doesn't sound like anything that couldn't be added via patch, if enough people call for it.

[Icy]

Icy, I'm sure you did a fanatastic job as a beta tester, but if you use the word "match" to describe a football game one more time, I'll keel you (to borrow the phrase)! ;)
Lol don't worry, i didn't betatest the game pbp orthography :)

Demo is out guys as i posted in another thread.

[MizzouRah]

BTW, demo up.
Like I needed that with Thanksgiving and all. :D

[moriarty]

You see, it is important to me for the game to feel real. And when people say "it isn't important" it tells programers to not make adjustments that are important. I really don't get how you can see that is "micro-managing." What the heck else does a coach do but make sure he has the right staff around him? That is one of the biggest part of college coaching, and this is a college coaching sim, right?

I guess it's all relative, but I'd rather have a good recruting model/system, accurate play by play / rules, 2 point conversions, etc..., excellent match sim model, good ranking system, yada yada yada. All of these are much more important to me (and I would prefer the developer spend time on) then hiring coaches on day 1, especially when it sounds like you can hire them later in your career anyways. Look at it this way, if the game simulations sucks, I won't play it regardless of whether you can hire coordinators or not.

Anyways, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Crapshoot]

Not bashing the game or Arlie or anything (kind of feel the need to throw that out there), but if you're trying to decide how accurate a sim is at producing realistic results, simple averages are really not the way to go. Of course, not being on the beta and not being Arlie, I have no idea if they are using better statistics to look at the stats to see if the game produces realistic results play to play.

For instance, if the average of yards per run is 4.00, let's just say in real life, the vast majority of runs are 2-6 yards. That would get you at the 4 per carry. But, if in the game, it's producing a ton of -2 and 10 yard runs, you get at the same average. That's an intentially extreme example just to show the unreliability of averages. I highly doubt that Arlie's game is doing that. All I'm doing is just putting out there a sign of caution. Don't get all giddy over averages, it's not a very good stat for judging accuracy.

Having said that, with the delay of the release, it looks like Arlie has learned from past mistakes and is putting all he can into it and not rushing it out. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about the game.

What Sab said - if this is a factor for you, looking at Standard Deviations is also important (and therfore the distribution at large).

[Icy]

Of course you can hire the coaches after the first season but it's done in the postseason. I would have liked it for the first season too, but as the coaches hiring/firing stage is also tied to you keeping or not your job, it had to be placed after the season.

[GrantDawg]

I guess it's all relative, but I'd rather have a good recruting model/system, accurate play by play / rules, 2 point conversions, etc..., excellent match sim model, good ranking system, yada yada yada. All of these are much more important to me (and I would prefer the developer spend time on) then hiring coaches on day 1, especially when it sounds like you can hire them later in your career anyways. Look at it this way, if the game simulations sucks, I won't play it regardless of whether you can hire coordinators or not.

Anyways, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.You act like that is either/or. He already has coach hiring/firing in the game (and if he didn't then this game would be incomplete), so why not plan it to be from the start since that is realistic? I just don't get people giving free passes to bad planning.

[GrantDawg]

Of course you can hire the coaches after the first season but it's done in the postseason. I would have liked it for the first season too, but as the coaches hiring/firing stage is also tied to you keeping or not your job, it had to be placed after the season.
I don't see it. It should be seperate after you would be fired, and the game should start at the point after you are hired, making the first thing you do after hire or a new job hiring coaches. It is how real life works, and this is a sim, correct?

[Icy]

I don't see it. It should be seperate after you would be fired, and the game should start at the point after you are hired, making the first thing you do after hire or a new job hiring coaches. It is how real life works, and this is a sim, correct?
Agree with you and it was propossed to Arlie (he also read your post when you wrote it back in time, he has read all the posts in this thread and took some ideas) but he said it was not possible to change that as the game "heart" with the different stages was already designed and we were already testing it.

[Anthony]

You act like that is either/or. He already has coach hiring/firing in the game (and if he didn't then this game would be incomplete), so why not plan it to be from the start since that is realistic? I just don't get people giving free passes to bad planning.

not like you can do this in FOF either.

[GrantDawg]

Agree with you and it was propossed to Arlie (he also read your post when you wrote it back in time, he has read all the posts in this thread and took some ideas) but he said it was not possible to change that as the game "heart" with the different stages was already designed and we were already testing it.
Which I remeber a know he can't change it, but I point it out again to underline it so the next game he makes (or other progammers make) don't make the same mistake, which is really a dumb mistake. When thinking of how game should start, I just can't see how that isn't the first thing you think of. It boggles my mind.

[GrantDawg]

not like you can do this in FOF either.

Which I don't like, and one of the reasons IMHO I've never been able to get to deeply into FOF, or hated TCY from day one.

[Arles]

Really? How many coaches coming in aren't allowed to hire their coaches? A head coach is only as good as cordinators. It is a major part of the game. I don't see how anyone can't see that.
If it really bothers you, you can always sim to the first offseason and start there where you can hire a coach ;)

[Ben E Lou]

What Sab said - if this is a factor for you, looking at Standard Deviations is also important (and therfore the distribution at large).I've never heard any developer other than Jim say that they *have* that sort of data. Jim broke down box scores to get real-life standard deviations and whatnot. I can't say for sure that Arlie doesn't have the data, but he's never stated publicly that he has that level of detail. For me, the fact that ypc and ypa are accurate AND scoring is accurate would be a strong indicator that the distribution is close to real life. If we were seeing ypc and ypa correct, but scoring off base, then that would be a strong indicator of a standard deviation problem.

[GrantDawg]

If it really bothers you, you can always sim to the first offseason and start there where you can hire a coach ;)
Which is what I'll do, but I don't like that I have to. I'm sorry this is getting more play than necessary, but I can't stand it when people down play a legitmate beef.

[QuikSand]

While I may not share your... uh, fervor... I agree with you, GrantDawg. I would have liked to see this as the first step in the game.

[Arles]

Which is what I'll do, but I don't like that I have to. I'm sorry this is getting more play than necessary, but I can't stand it when people down play a legitmate beef.
One of the things I have added is the ability to sim the entire season (and stop at any point) and not be "graded" on that performance. So, if you wanted to start with Team X, you could set the budget and then select "Sim Full season". It will sim the rest of camp and the season, then stop it in the offseason and take over in week 1. At that point, you can "take over" and have the ability to personalize your staff without fear of having a negative season impact your coach job performance.

I don't think it's a petty issue, but I have tried to offer a solution to help people that feel the way you do. There are others who wanted to start with the offseason recruiting as the first stage, so this allows them to do that as well. Plus, there are even more who want to have 5-6 years of league history before they start - which this allows too.

[Icy]

Which I remeber a know he can't change it, but I point it out again to underline it so the next game he makes (or other progammers make) don't make the same mistake, which is really a dumb mistake. When thinking of how game should start, I just can't see how that isn't the first thing you think of. It boggles my mind.
Agree with you and i'm part of the next game beta team i'll push for it from the first time as i also like to bring my own staff with me as real coaches do.

[Anthony]

One of the things I have added is the ability to sim the entire season (and stop at any point) and not be "graded" on that performance. So, if you wanted to start with Team X, you could set the budget and then select "Sim Full season". It will sim the rest of camp and the season, then stop it in the offseason and take over in week 1. At that point, you can "take over" and have the ability to personalize your staff without fear of having a negative season impact your coach job performance.

I don't think it's a petty issue, but I have tried to offer a solution to help people that feel the way you do. There are others who wanted to start with the offseason recruiting as the first stage, so this allows them to do that as well. Plus, there are even more who want to have 5-6 years of league history before they start - which this allows too.

this seems like a very reasonable work-around, especially for an issue which is minor to most.

[Antmeister]

So how is everyone handling recruiting since it occurs at a particular stage in the season. Does that still bother some people or do you find that with the other responsibilities, that this seems more appropriate for this type of game?

[Ksyrup]

One of the things I have added is the ability to sim the entire season (and stop at any point) and not be "graded" on that performance. So, if you wanted to start with Team X, you could set the budget and then select "Sim Full season". It will sim the rest of camp and the season, then stop it in the offseason and take over in week 1. At that point, you can "take over" and have the ability to personalize your staff without fear of having a negative season impact your coach job performance.

I don't think it's a petty issue, but I have tried to offer a solution to help people that feel the way you do. There are others who wanted to start with the offseason recruiting as the first stage, so this allows them to do that as well. Plus, there are even more who want to have 5-6 years of league history before they start - which this allows too.
Cool, thanks!

I don't think I've bought a game from you guys yet, but I think this one will be the first.

I haven't really followed this thread or the game's development much at all - is there a definitive release date, a time frame, or what?