What Should We Do? (Serious Problem)

[Blackadar]

Ok, I'm going to try and give the Cliff's Notes version. I could literally write a book about my in-laws, but no one would believe it.

It's a situation revolving around my Wife's sister and her husband - I'll call them Dick and Jane. They have an 8 year old daughter - I'll call her Sallly.

Jane has recently (about 3 months ago) committed child abuse with a 16 year old foster child staying in their home. She then tried to kill herself and was hospitalized. She hasn't been charged by the police and it looked like the matter was going to get swept under the rug. Now a letter has surfaced (post-suicide attempt, written in March) which incriminates her further - it's no longer a he said/she said scenario.

Dick is pretty abusive - not physically, but mentally he's a real piece of work. He also wants to quit his job so he can go on the road as a sound man for a Christian rock band, so if he has his way he won't be around as much. The other problem is that he was accused of abuse back when he was Youth Minister of another church. It was swept under the rug, too - though he had to resign and leave that church. Again, there was no hard evidence and the cops weren't called. Now he's thinking of filing for divorce and custody. I really fear for the child (Sally) - she's 8 and with no Mom there, I can really see an abusive situation taking place.

The Mother-In-Law just recently divorced her husband and married his cousin. She's not a bad person, but she's manic/depressive and that's the whole environment that created this kind of thing. I know...my wife has had to work through some major issues.

Sally is left at M-I-L's house 3, 4 and even 5 days at a time with no notice from her parents (Dick and Jane). There seems to be very little affection between the parents and the kid. She's "home schooled" as well.

I am not close to my wife's family (for obvious reasons). I have a 5 year old Son and we're about 2 hours away from them (within the same state). It's a horrid situation. I not sure what - if anything - we should/can do.

Most of this is just venting, but if anyone has any good advice, feel free to share. Just a couple of other facts:

1. Dick probably would not want to give up Sally, especially if my wife asked. He once told her that he "married the wrong sister" and has tried to hit on her before (and been rebuffed).

2. If Sally went to public school, I'd talk to her principal. But she doesn't, so...

3. I could call Social Services, but I'm really afraid that may make things worse. Jane could go to jail - and maybe she deserves to, if she doesn't go to the hospital for mental treatment - and if Dick gets Sally alone, I feel the chances of sexual abuse are 50/50.

4. I would talk to their pastor, but he's supporting Dick (who makes nice-nice in the Church when he's not being accused of fondling 13 year old girls) and I'm not of the same religion.

I have no idea what to do...there's probably nothing I can do, and I feel so fucking helpless while this kid has her life destroyed.

[Raiders Army]

There are so many other variables out there, but from my point of view, if you know about the situation and do nothing, you are almost as much to blame as the ones who perform the acts. Depending on your situation, you might want to call Child Protective Services to see what they can do or see if they offer any advice.

[gstelmack]

That just sucks. I agree that as an outside parent, your options are limited here. But I'm hoping some of the other people on the board that deal more with these types of situations (SkyDog?) will have better advice. Sally, the 8-year-old, really deserves better than all of this.

[NoMyths]

If you put her odds at being sexually abused at 50/50, you absolutely need to involve Social Services, and/or seriously consider trying to gain custody of the child

[Karlifornia]

Geez, man. Sorry to hear about this situation. It's tough, but I feel that you have to get the child out of this situation any way possible. You may think that you're going to damage the child more by getting the parents as far removed as possible, but it's really worth it in the long run. The kid is going to grow up never knowing right from wrong otherwise.

[Blackadar]

If you put her odds at being sexually abused at 50/50, you absolutely need to involve Social Services, and/or seriously consider trying to gain custody of the child

FYI, Social Services was notified when the abuse of the foster kid happened - and they haven't done a damn thing.

[Raiders Army]

I repeat, call Child Protective Services. Each state should have a website, and your report is confidential and is not subject to public release under the Open Records Act. The law provides for immunity from civil or criminal liability for innocent persons who report even unfounded suspicions, as long as your report is made in good faith. Your identity is kept confidential.

[Flasch186]

take in the kid. As of right now, on this path, her ENTIRE LIFE will be ruined. SO, what do you do? I say take in the kid and tell the parents that if they try to take her back you will absolutely let them....with the exposure of EVERYTHING that will come too. Perhaps then they'll undertsand that the kid needs to be raised in a stable environment.

perhaps its not that easy, but in my brain it is.

[gottimd]

Sally, the 8-year-old, really deserves better than all of this.
Indeed she does and this is a horrible situation. Its one thing to ruin your own life by making decisions. but to bring your kid down with you is absolutely nuts. So by calling Social Services, the one thing that is holding you back, is that you will get your S-I-L in trouble? I have never dealt with or heard of a situation like this, but would it be at all possible, if by some random chance, they both agreed to let Sally "go", for you and your wife to become her legal guardians, as it seems you have your head on straight. You would do this, in this instance, if I understand you correctly?

[Franklinnoble]

What sort of church does this Dick go to? (nice choice of pseudonyms, by the way) ;)

[Blackadar]

take in the kid. As of right now, on this path, her ENTIRE LIFE will be ruined. SO, what do you do? I say take in the kid and tell the parents that if they try to take her back you will absolutely let them....with the exposure of EVERYTHING that will come too. Perhaps then they'll undertsand that the kid needs to be raised in a stable environment.

perhaps its not that easy, but in my brain it is.

WHAT?!? Kidnap the child? Uh, no - I'm not going to jail.

[Blackadar]

What sort of church does this Dick go to? (nice choice of pseudonyms, by the way) ;)

Southern Baptist / Baptist.

Also, everyone needs to remember that Social Services has already been involved. They aren't doing a damn thing - not even on the existing child abuse claim (which can be proved).

[Raiders Army]

Jane has recently (about 3 months ago) committed child abuse with a 16 year old foster child staying in their home. She then tried to kill herself and was hospitalized. She hasn't been charged by the police and it looked like the matter was going to get swept under the rug. Now a letter has surfaced (post-suicide attempt, written in March) which incriminates her further - it's no longer a he said/she said scenario.

After thinking about this for a second, I don't understand this part. The letter incriminates her abuse actions?

Also, do you have any evidence of what you think will happen? In my mind, if you do not, then it will be impossible to take the child away from her guardians. Sadly, the abuse will have to occur in order to take her away, especially if her parents (Dick) fight against it.

I understand your frustration and it sucks, but these things were put in place for a reason.

[wbatl1]

WHAT?!? Kidnap the child? Uh, no - I'm not going to jail.

Well, at least you could have your car color and license plate on those cool boards above the highway :D

In all seriousness, this situation sucks. Is there anyone else related that you could go to to help you with whatever your action is?

[albionmoonlight]

If you do work out some "arrangement" wherin you take the child, make sure that you get legal custody. An "understanding" won't mean much if the biological parents come back into the picture in a couple of years.

I also agree that you need to call the state agency. They have their problems, but it is better than kidnapping the kid (illegal) and doing nothing.

I, too, am interested in what SkyDog has to say.

[Blackadar]

Well, at least you could have your car color and license plate on those cool boards above the highway :D

In all seriousness, this situation sucks. Is there anyone else related that you could go to to help you with whatever your action is?

I'm not close to that side of the family at all. Again, for obvious reasons. There's not a single one that I feel I could "trust". There's a couple of decent people, but no one that I would count on to watch my back.

My wife is a bit different since she's "blood". But even then, I don't see anyone else beyond this little group able to exert any influence on the situation.

[Raiders Army]

What part about the "State Agency already involved and have done nothing" is everyone missing? I haven't called them personally...but I don't have any hard evidence at all.

What "State Agency?" There are a bunch of different State Agencies, just like there are a bunch of social services. Also, just trying to help. :)

[Blackadar]

If you do work out some "arrangement" wherin you take the child, make sure that you get legal custody. An "understanding" won't mean much if the biological parents come back into the picture in a couple of years.

I also agree that you need to call the state agency. They have their problems, but it is better than kidnapping the kid (illegal) and doing nothing.

I, too, am interested in what SkyDog has to say.

What part about the "State Agency already involved and have done nothing" is everyone missing? I haven't called them personally...but I don't have any hard evidence at all. And no, I don't know if it's Social Services or Child Protection Services who has been contacted. I've never needed either so I tend to use them interchangably - which agency do foster kids come from?

I was thinking about finding their former church and contacting the pastor there - especially if Dick tries to file for divorce/custody. But many of these churches would rather just sweep things under the rug. After all, if Dick truly did commit child abuse and the pastor just let him walk away, he could be vulnerable to losing his job or getting sued. So I don't expect any help there, either.

[WrongWay]

Tell me about Dick's parents? My money would be on them to actually end up taking care of her.

Stick your head in the sand and Put your ear to the ground and watch this unfold. The Divorce will end in a Very nasting Custody hearing. This will completely devide parents and grandparents as they toss insults and accusations in court. In the end Dick will get majority custody with jane having visits. Dick will go on the road to tour with the band and leave Sally at home with his parents.

[wishbone]

My personal opinion is that issues should be resolved first by the family, then the church (where applicable, which is rare) then the government(generally least effective at being proactive). You have exhausted the first two and tried the third it sounds like. Your best bet is in developing a relationship with Sally and her family so that you are the natural choice to take custody when Dick goes to prison and Jane isn't able to cae for Sally. This way Sally knows life can be different and when the inevitable happens, there will be more relief than trauma.

If that's not possible, you may just have to watch as her life continues to spiral and try to help pick up the pieces later.

just my 2 cents

[Blackadar]

Tell me about Dick's parents? My money would be on them to actually end up taking care of her.

Stick your head in the sand and Put your ear to the ground and watch this unfold. The Divorce will end in a Very nasting Custody hearing. This will completely devide parents and grandparents as they toss insults and accusations in court. In the end Dick will get majority custody with jane having visits. Dick will go on the road to tour with the band and leave Sally at home with his parents.

Dick's Mom kicked him out when he was 15. Then he came to live with the M-I-L and met Jane there. Yes, it's almost incestual....

She just moved away (out of State). They are living in her old house. She's a weird old woman and I don't have any contact with her.

[stkelly52]

Southern Baptist / Baptist.

Also, everyone needs to remember that Social Services has already been involved. They aren't doing a damn thing - not even on the existing child abuse claim (which can be proved).

If they havn't done anything, then call again. And then call again. Then talk to their neighbors and see if you can get them to call again. Don't stop until the they finally get off of thier butt and does something. My siblings grew up in an abusive foster home. Someone called once, and then gave up. I wish that the person who reposrted it would have been willing to keep at it until something changed.

[Blackadar]

The only thing I can think of is to have the M-I-L start applying pressure to both Dick and Jane to give up Sally...with us as the natural choice.

Don't get me wrong. Sally is a good kid and all, but I'm not trying to "find" a daughter. I would take her in because she's related and she needs a good home and parents. I wouldn't feel resentment by taking her in, but it's not my goal in life.

[Blackadar]

If they havn't done anything, then call again. And then call again. Then talk to their neighbors and see if you can get them to call again. Don't stop until the they finally get off of thier butt and does something. My siblings grew up in an abusive foster home. Someone called once, and then gave up. I wish that the person who reposrted it would have been willing to keep at it until something changed.

I probably should start (and keep) calling. Though with no hard evidence against Dick, it may make the situation far worse. I don't think he's abusing her now...without Jane around, it becomes a more likely scenario.

Oh, and the whole family (besides us) lives down the same dirt road...there are really no "non family" neighbors.

[Bee]

Just because social services haven't done anything to date doesn't mean contacting them is a waste of time. The more information they have on file, the better (especially when coming from various sources).

The other thing I didn't understand in your original post was this:

3. I could call Social Services, but I'm really afraid that may make things worse. Sally could go to jail - and maybe she deserves to, if she doesn't go to the hospital for mental treatment - and if Dick gets Sally alone, I feel the chances of sexual abuse are 50/50.

Why would the 8 year old go to jail? Or are you referring to the mother...Jane?

[Blackadar]

Just because social services haven't done anything to date doesn't mean contacting them is a waste of time. The more information they have on file, the better (especially when coming from various sources).

The other thing I didn't understand in your original post was this:



Why would the 8 year old go to jail? Or are you referring to the mother...Jane?


Yea, sorry. Corrected the original post. Thx.

[Blackadar]

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.

[Franklinnoble]

What state do these people live in?

This is some backwater shit going on... If you have the means, hire an attorney. That might get results with CPS.

[lighthousekeeper]

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.

can i get the movie rights?

[HomerJSimpson]

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.


In my family, it took a couple of years and constant Children and Family Services calls to finally get custody awy from my sister, but it finally did happen. The charges you are talking about are much worse than that situation, so it might not take as long. As others have said, make the calls and apply the pressure. Other than that, prayer and being there to do what you can is the limit of what you can do.

[Peregrine]

Tough situation. Some friends of mine had a very similar situation, with their in-laws family basically disintegrating because of drug use, prison, child abuse allegations, etc. In that case they ended up taking in and adopting the two kids (teenagers) in that family, though I'm pretty sure it was with the family's consent. If there's not consent, it makes it a lot harder. I think you definitely need to get involved if you can, but you don't want to crack up the situation worse. I'd get involved with any other relatives (MIL, etc) to try to present a united front if you can, that might help.

[General Mike]

shoot em all and let God sort em out.

[dawgfan]

Just to reiterate what stkelly52 and Bee have already said, keep calling CPS (or whichever state agency handles child protective services) again and again until they do something, and encourage your wife to do so as well and as often as possible.

It sucks, but the fact is that in many (if not all) CPS departments around the country the people working there are swamped by an overload of cases and the nature of the job combined with severe overwork results in rapid burnout and a revolving door of people working the job, so you have a mess of frequently over-burdened and inexperienced people manning these jobs.

I feel for your situation Blackie - your poor niece is in an awful situation. Like others have said, if you're 50% convinced that her dad will sexually abuse her, that right there is enough to do everything you can legally to get Sally out of that household. This situation is exactly why CPS agencies were created, and you need to hound them until they take action.

[MacroGuru]

I had the same Dilemna as you...but with one of my cousins.

My Aunt was an alcoholic as was her husband. He had also been reported on sexual abuse by the oldest cousin. (3 of them to this family, all girls)

The oldest seperated herself from the family completely, the other one ran away, and the youngest was left at home to dad's mercies.

My mom called Child Services, and continued to call....it took a while, but finally, somone went in, interviewed the youngest, and had her removed from the home.

My grandfather took her in for a bit, but the state said he was getting to old to take care of her, and she cycled through the system, but ended up back at the house...So she ran away.

State got involved again, and that point in time, I was was 25 years old, with a 3 year old daughter and a newborn son being asked to take in a 12 year old girl. I was going to do it, however, I figured I would get the oldest sister involved.

I called and hunted down the oldest sister. Talked to her about what I was going to do, and the oldest sister took it upon her to take her in.

Honestly, report it non stop to Department of Family and Child Services and just keep hounding them.

It's a big leap to raise someone elses child, but if you do, I admire you more than anything.

[sachmo71]

I have to agree with the calling Family Protective Services and give them all you know. Ignoring it won't fix it, and stepping in personally can cause all sorts of problems. Good luck, Blackie.


EDIT: The only thing you might try is to see if he will let her come stay with you guys for a while. Maybe if she's away from him, she might feel like talking to someone and maybe provide evidence to open a case against him. Bah...just a bad situation.

[Blackadar]

I have to agree with the calling Family Protective Services and give them all you know. Ignoring it won't fix it, and stepping in personally can cause all sorts of problems. Good luck, Blackie.


EDIT: The only thing you might try is to see if he will let her come stay with you guys for a while. Maybe if she's away from him, she might feel like talking to someone and maybe provide evidence to open a case against him. Bah...just a bad situation.

Sachmo...I knew I liked you for a reason. :)

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

[sachmo71]

Sachmo...I knew I liked you for a reason. :)

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

That sounds good, but I would personally try to keep it on the innocent side...make it seem like you are trying to do him a favor, or even that he is doing you a favor by letting her come stay with you. My concern with adding the M-I-L to the equation is that he may feel attacked, and go defensive. Maybe hold her in reserve? The bottom line is getting that girl out of there.

On a lighter note, thanks for the kind words. :)

[dawgfan]

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

Outstanding - I hope it works out.

[Blackadar]

Thanks for the advice...I sort of put my foot down with my wife a few minutes ago.

I told her to tell the M-I-L that either she gets on board - NOW - and helps resolve the situation or I'm going to start calling DSS/Child Protection next week.

[RealDeal]

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

[dawgfan]

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

:rolleyes:

[Blackadar]

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

You're entitled to your opinion.

However, I've been part of this community since...1998? 1999? 2000? It's changed over the years, but in all my web-travels, I've found some of the most serious and intelligent people on the web here - on this board. Even if I don't always agree with them. There are a few outright morons too - who won't post on this thread or I already have on ignore.

Frankly, I trust the judgment of some of the people here more than most anyone else. It's been shown that judgment (and advice) to be sound time and time again. You have 200 posts since 2002. I've probably had 8,000-10,000 in the various incarnations of the Sideline and FOFC. I'd venture that I have much more experience evaluating the advice given here more than you.

However, you may be right - this may also need to be posted on a board devoted to such topics to perhaps get more "professional" advice.

[Ben E Lou]

Yeah, CPS offices generally suck. I've dealt with them more than once. If you actually want to make something happen (and are willing to go through some messy-ness to get there), the key is this: FIND DICK'S ABUSE VICTIM--not the church, the actual victim. If you can do that, then your path is clear. After finding the abuse victim:

1. Get Dick's abuse victim on the record with CPS, but better yet, the police.
2. Get ahold of the proof that exists of Jane's abuse, and take that to the police first, CPS second.
3. Get copies of the police investigations of Dick and Jane to CPS.
4. The three steps above should get Dick and Jane removed from the picture eventually, and open up custody of Sally to extended family. From what you've told us, you and your wife should be clear winners in the custody battle, if there even is one.

The situation sucks for Sally as it is, and the resolution will suck too. Being sexually abused by her father would be much, much worse, though. It could get messy. Grandma might put up a fight.

[RealDeal]

My apologies. I didn't realize that 10K posts on this board was evidence of good judgment. Carry on.

[Blackadar]

Yeah, CPS offices generally suck. I've dealt with them more than once. If you actually want to make something happen (and are willing to go through some messy-ness to get there), the key is this: FIND DICK'S ABUSE VICTIM--not the church, the actual victim. If you can do that, then your path is clear. After finding the abuse victim:

1. Get Dick's abuse victim on the record with CPS, but better yet, the police.
2. Get ahold of the proof that exists of Jane's abuse, and take that to the police first, CPS second.
3. Get copies of the police investigations of Dick and Jane to CPS.
4. The three steps above should get Dick and Jane removed from the picture eventually, and open up custody of Sally to extended family. From what you've told us, you and your wife should be clear winners in the custody battle, if there even is one.

The situation sucks for Sally as it is, and the resolution will suck too. Being sexually abused by her father would be much, much worse, though. It could get messy. Grandma might put up a fight.

I don't know how to find Dick's abuse victim. We don't even know the name nor location of the Church...never mind the name of the pastor at the time (who probably wouldn't give me any info). Probably the only way will be through Jane, if Dick decides to leave her. She might have it....or at least some contacts.

Unless you have some other idea on how to find Dick's alleged victim?

[Ben E Lou]

I don't know how to find Dick's abuse victim. We don't even know the name nor location of the Church...never mind the name of the pastor at the time (who probably wouldn't give me any info). Probably the only way will be through Jane, if Dick decides to leave her. She might have it....or at least some contacts.

Unless you have some other idea on how to find Dick's alleged victim?Hmmmm...without knowing the name or location of the church, it would be very, very difficult. You might feel dirty doing it (since you'd probably have to end up turning Jane in later on), but I guess Jane is your only "easy" option. The other option might be to steer a conversation with Dick in the direction you want it to go. If you volunteer with the Boy Scouts or any youth organization, you could ask him for "advice on some good group activities for kids" or something, then casually ask, "Hey, where were you a youth pastor, anyway?" If he was a youth pastor, the pastor probably won't talk, but I'll pretty much *guarantee* you that someone who felt "burned" when he resigned will talk.

[Blackadar]

My apologies. I didn't realize that 10K posts on this board was evidence of good judgment. Carry on.

Not judgment...experience. Regarding the intelligence level of the board members here, I have vastly more experience regarding their judgment.

Your point about posting elsewhere is a good one. Your point about the users here isn't. Don't confuse the two.

[Subby]

Just wait til you hear noop's advice...

[gstelmack]

Your point about posting elsewhere is a good one. Your point about the users here isn't. Don't confuse the two.
Agreed. This group generally knows when to be serious and when not to be serious, and don't take the fact that 99% of the time nothing serious is going on as evidence that we CAN'T be serious that other 1%. And there is a wealth of experience on this board as we're a pretty diverse group (as evidenced by all the political threads http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif )

[Ben E Lou]

Question for Blacky:

Have you checked to see if your wife knows where he was a youth pastor? I'd be a little surprised if your wife didn't know that sort of detail about her sister's husband.

[Blackadar]

Question for Blacky:

Have you checked to see if your wife knows where he was a youth pastor? I'd be a little surprised if your wife didn't know that sort of detail about her sister's husband.

She doesn't...already asked a few weeks ago.

[Solecismic]

I've been on a lot of boards out there. This one has a pretty good mix, and I'd trust the advice given here. People discuss things here, and through open discussion, you often reach better conclusions, or at least help think through a difficult piece of an issue.

This is a very tough problem. If you can say that ideally, your niece is better off being in the "system" and living with foster parents than with your sister in law, you're making quite a statement. If you can make that statement without reservation, you need to act. And if you need to act, you need a lawyer versed in custody cases in your state.

[Ben E Lou]

She doesn't...already asked a few weeks ago.Dang.

Well, I haven't said it directly, but you've probably picked up on it from my tone: without some strong evidence against him, there's very little that can be done about Dick. It is unlikely that the natural father would ever be denied custody without strong evidence of him being a sexual abuser.

[Eaglesfan27]

FYI, Social Services was notified when the abuse of the foster kid happened - and they haven't done a damn thing.
I haven't read any further into this thread yet, but I'll offer my opinion which might be repetitive.

I see situations like this much too frequently in my profession. Actually, I was just talking to my therapy supervisor this morning about how over half of the female teenagers I see in as outpatients have been sexually abused.

This is a situation that sends multiple red flags. It's not just a myth that abusers tend to choose a certain profile of person who is prone to being abused. From what I've heard, "Dick" has several characteristics that make me think he is likely to be an abuser. I am willing to bet that your instincts are correct, and that he has a significant chance of abusing "Sally."

"Jane" sounds like she has significant psychiatric problems. Well over half of all bipolar patients are non-compliant with treatment. It feels good to be manic, at least that is what my patients have told me. In comparision, it feels crappy to be "stablized." Bipolar disorder (also called Manic-Depression) certainly runs in families and there is a genetic component. It sounds likely that Jane suffers from Bipolar Disorder Type 1. I'm not saying this is an excuse for the abuse she may have committed on the 16 year old, but it does make her more likely to be an unfit mother if she doesn't get help for her problems (and keep getting help.)

So, now you have "Sally" who has a difficult situation in which neither of her parents are necessarily the best option, and you and your wife are rightfully concerned. What can you do? You might contact a lawyer if you can, however, my guess is that your options are limited. Certainly, you can report this concern to Child Protective Services (whatever that agency is called in your state.) However, like you mentioned earlier, they did nothing about the suspected earlier abuse. I find them to be ineffectual in the 2 states where I have practiced medicine, and often infuriatingly non-effective. I realize they are overwhelmed, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

I don't think there is much that you can do here, except strongly encourage "Jane" to get help for herself and her daughter (she almost certainly has already experienced some effects of the disorganization around her) and be available to help if "Jane" will let you do so. If you think you can make any inroads with "Dick" I would try to approach him too, but it sounds unlikely that he will let anyone help his daughter.

In any case, I'll be praying for you all and particularly Sally.

[albionmoonlight]

It's easier to have a child than adopt a dog from the pound, which I know is nothing profound, but it still saddens me. I'm all for individual rights and all, but if they ever invent a way to sterilize the dicks of dicks like Dick until they demonstrate that they won't be a dick with their kids, I'll be all for it.

I, too, will be praying for the whole family.

[Blackadar]

FYI, Dick kicked Jane out of the house this weekend.

[Ben E Lou]

Skydog (never referenced my husband this way) mentioned this thread to me and asked me to take a look since I work in the social services arena for a non-profit, private foster care/ adoption agency. Obviously, there are no easy answers here and my original advice has been altered somewhat by your last post that "Dick" kicked "Jane" out--that increases the urgency of the situation. My original thoughts...I agree with Skydog that hard evidence is a powerful weapon. But even stronger than that in the eyes of CPS investigators is the self-report of the child and/or the self-report of any siblings. Especially when you can add any other "incriminating" evidence to the report, which it sounds like you have. So, that being said, I would agree with the idea of spending time with Sally and continuing to build you and your wife's bond with her so that she would feel safe sharing with you. Keep in close contact and ask her specifically about how things are at home. Ask questions about her parents and how they are with her in age appropriate terms. (Obviously, this would require what would appear to be an amicable relationship with Sally's parents in order to have access to her. As soon as it becomes confrontational, you won't be able to get close to her.) If things surface, contact CPS and encourage Sally to tell the caseworkers the truth. (regardless of how she is treated...she won't want her parents to "get into trouble" and will want to protect them even though they may not deserve it. We all want to believe that our parents will do right by us at the end of the day.) But you may not have the time now to take this slower approach.

That being said, I would also agree about the idea of hounding Children and Family Services. The response all depends on the caseworker. Where two might not move on it, another will. In most states, they definitely look first for kinship placements, so I would imagine you guys would be a great option. Also, for what it is worth, I have found that Protective Services move the fastest and most conservatively (meaning take the child into custody) when they feel like they have some sort of "eye" on them. Whether the media, a politician, or a law-suit--when they have to be "squeaky" clean, they are much more responsive. Don't know if you have any connections to create leverage. I will be praying for you, your wife (who has to feel so torn), Sally, AND her parents--who are obviously hurting from their own wounds. Abusers most often have been abused. So sad.

Sorry so long....You can ask Skydog, brevity is something I have never been accused of :-) Of course, I could have broken it into multiple posts prefaced by "dola"--But since I am posting under hubby's name this wouldn't do anything for me now, would it? ;-)

[Ben E Lou]

Dola...
(Darn! I really didn't mean to do this)

Regarding the "leverage" thing... ideally needs to not be traced back to you. So you would have to have someone else apply the pressure. Don't want the county to know you were involved because you won't have a shot at having Sally placed with you. Nothing like getting into a power struggle with the government. Ugg.

[ColtCrazy]

First of all, I would gather as much information as you can for CPS, that I agree with. However, if I'm not mistaken, when there's a custody, the grandparents are STRONGLY considered to be the next care giver. You need the mother's consent that you want custody over her. Sounds like she would support it. I realize your wife may not want to totally trash her sister, but it's in the best interest of the child. Every little piece of evidence you can find will help. The father has no buisness taking the girl, and would probably only do so to help finance his "world groupee tour"

Good Luck and Best Wishes

[Ben E Lou]

Dola...
{Wipes tear of joy from eye.}


I have taught her well...

[judicial clerk]

You do not live far enough away from these people.

I am concerned that your involvment will elicit a negative reaction against you from Dick and/or his family. I am also concerned about the stress and anxiety that this situation will put on your household.

I think that speaking with professionals in this area is the way to go. I am sure there are some private abuse prevention hotlines you can access for guidance. After speaking with people who have experience in this area, you can decide on a plan.

I would keep a journal regarding this matter. It will help you to remember all the facts surrounding this situation as it progresses, (could be important later) and it might be theraputic. People will always take you more seriously if you know exact dates, places, and names. A journal will help you to remember this.

[Blackadar]

I've ultimately decided not to do anything right now. The situation is too...fluid.

There are divorce papers being filed, custody battles beginning, etc. My M-I-L now wants to raise my niece as well, so she's angling for custody too.

Thanks for all the advice but at this point, I'll just stand on the sidelines and watch them kill each other. There's really not much more I can do anyway.

[Blackadar]

You do not live far enough away from these people.

I'm not sure what you mean. I live two hours away - too far or not far enough?

[judicial clerk]

I mean that I wish you lived farther away from these people. 2 hours away does not seam like a good enough buffer zone. I would hate for you to get dragged into this family's problems.

My wife's family has similar problems. I am glad that I live one state and 13 hours away from these problems. otherwise, it would be easy for my wife to get sucked into the middle of this.

[Ben E Lou]

I've ultimately decided not to do anything right now. The situation is too...fluid.

There are divorce papers being filed, custody battles beginning, etc. My M-I-L now wants to raise my niece as well, so she's angling for custody too.

Thanks for all the advice but at this point, I'll just stand on the sidelines and watch them kill each other. There's really not much more I can do anyway.Any update?

[Blackadar]

Nope. She's moved back with him and is now getting verbally/physically abused.

[Ben E Lou]

Nope. She's moved back with him and is now getting verbally/physically abused.Lovely. Just lovely.

[Blackadar]

Lovely. Just lovely.

Fuckin' great, isn't it? And while this has been going on, the child has missed all of her home schooling.

[Telle]

Fuckin' great, isn't it? And while this has been going on, the child has missed all of her home schooling.

You know, that just might be where you might be able to get something moving. It's neglectful of her parents to not provide her with a decent education. You probably won't be able to take her away with just that.. but I betcha you can at least get the state involved (I'm assuming that if the parents aren't keeping up with the home schooling then the state could require that she go into public schooling).

[Arctus]

Between

You know, that just might be where you might be able to get something moving. It's neglectful of her parents to not provide her with a decent education. You probably won't be able to take her away with just that.. but I betcha you can at least get the state involved (I'm assuming that if the parents aren't keeping up with the home schooling then the state could require that she go into public schooling).

and

Nope. She's moved back with him and is now getting verbally/physically abused.

and the fact that you and your wife are blood realtives, I believe you stand an excellent chance of gaining temporary custody if you and your wife are prepared to:

A) Burn your bridges with your wife's family
B) File a report detailing the suspected lack of home schooling and the suspected physical abuse your sister in law is enduring
C) Spend a moderate amount of time in court, at very regular intervals.

None of the above will amount to a hill of beans unless your niece on some level wants out of the environment (unless you have very hard evidence to support item B).

My sister in law has temporary custody (as a single parent) of a boy who is a classmate of her biological son. She stepped in and saved him from a bad situation. He is an amazing kid and truely part of our family. Its a tough road, but its also a worthy cause.

[Blackadar]

No, I'm pretty much done with them for now. Simply put, I would imagine a large part of the family would lie about the abuse, schooling and the like as those things are "unseemly" and should be "kept within the family".

I hate to leave the little girl high and dry, but I'm not going to jepordize my own family's financial/emotional security in a lost cause.

[revrew]

Oops,
Sorry, Black. Somehow I missed there was a page 2 of posts and didn't read it before I responded. Now I see that I would change my comments, but rather than respond to all the new gunk, I'm just going to cut out what I had here before and leave it alone.