2005-06 Soccer Thread [Archive] - Page 2 - Front Office Football Central

MIJB#19

01-31-2006, 11:36 AM

He did sign Jan Kromkamp, swapped a Spanish player for him too, so he's not adverse to the odd non-Spaniard every now and then.

Not sure why there was so little interest in De Jong, I guess it's the chance of teaming up with Van Der Vaart at Hamburg that drew him there, but it's strange that a current Dutch international would go for so little. I looked at an Ajax newsgroup and they didn't seem overly disappointed to see him leave either, so maybe he's not the great prospect he was once thought to be?De Jong was out of contract in the summer and was already on his way out, he didn't want to stay. The trainer Danny Blind said he won't be using leaving players much at all the rest of the season. De Jong is a good player, decent right back or central midfielder. Ajax just decided to get something for him while they still could. He'll probably be a backup on the World Cup squad, but playing together with two other Dutch internationals, Rafael van der Vaart and Khalid Boulahrouz (who's from my home town).

FrogMan

01-31-2006, 11:41 AM

That guy was money for me in FM2005.
I have this kind of reaction regarding many guys when watching the EPL review show, or any other EPL game. :D Maybe not allways "money" but along the lines of "aww, that dude helped me a lot" :)

Mikel Arteta, Fabio Rochemback, Stephen Warnock, Steve Finnan to name a few...

FM

moriarty

01-31-2006, 03:13 PM

WHAT? I missed this one. I wonder if this means Cisse or Pongolle is now on the move.

Hell, Fowler at least can poke in sitters right in front of the goal which is more than Cisse managed at Man U. I wonder if this is a "make up" for failing to bring back Owen to the club when they're desparate for a consistent scorer, or if it's just a thank you to Fowler, and they'll release him at year end.

Well looks like Pongolle lost out, at least for the short term. He's been loaned out to Blackburn. I still don't see Cisse here after next season but he is the only one left (out of Crouch, Morientes, Fowler) with pace.

FrogMan

02-01-2006, 11:00 AM

I've been paying a bit of attention to the current African Nations Cup and found this write-up interesting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/4670754.stm

He basically rates every team's group stage performance...

And this tidbit is kind of sad for South Africans, who now have 4 years to at least put themselves on the path of respectability:
SOUTH AFRICA

Have you ever watched a football match and wished you were having your teeth pulled out instead?

Well, watching South Africa in their opening game against Tunisia made some of us pine for the dentist's chair. It was that ugly!

At times Bafana Bafana looked like a collection of individuals who had just met at a bus station moments before kick-off.

Ted Dumitru's side picks up my 'Worst Team of Egypt 2006' award.
Grade: F
ouch! South Africa have since sacked Ted Dumitru. Dude had been in post for only a few months...

FM

Crapshoot

02-01-2006, 11:45 AM

Well looks like Pongolle lost out, at least for the short term. He's been loaned out to Blackburn. I still don't see Cisse here after next season but he is the only one left (out of Crouch, Morientes, Fowler) with pace.

Yeah, I think Rafa believes Fowler > Pongelle in the short run. Rumors were flying that they made an offer for Defoe - a straight swap for Cisse. That would be frigging perfect - Defoe would be a great foil of Crouch, and with a poacher like Morientes as well - that's a good collection of strikers.

ISiddiqui

02-01-2006, 03:30 PM

Do you think Tottenham would agree to a swap of Defoe for Cisse? I seriously doubt it.

Crapshoot

02-01-2006, 03:34 PM

Do you think Tottenham would agree to a swap of Defoe for Cisse? I seriously doubt it.

Well, Jol hates playing with Keane and Defoe upfront together- they're both small, and his system relies on a bigger target man. Defoe's been on the bench for something like 9 of the last 10 games, and hasn't exactly been profilgate this term. Cisse gives him someone like Mido who can play a smaller striker alongside. FWIW, Cisse has scored 12 goals in all comps this season - (4 in the EPL), Defoe has 5 (all in the EPL). Cisse was a 14 million pound buy and was considered one of the brightest if not the brightest french striking talent since trezugeut. Given the tactical needs of both teams (Benitez needs someone to play of Crouch, Jol can't pair Keane and Defoe with Mido - ) - it may make sense, in a screwed up kind of way.

Critch

02-01-2006, 08:07 PM

Duncan Ferguson ties the record for most sending offs in the EPL, and he does it in style.

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl9PNF1exfE

moriarty

02-01-2006, 08:11 PM

Yeah, I think Rafa believes Fowler > Pongelle in the short run. Rumors were flying that they made an offer for Defoe - a straight swap for Cisse. That would be frigging perfect - Defoe would be a great foil of Crouch, and with a poacher like Morientes as well - that's a good collection of strikers.

Damn, while I can understand why Tottenham didn't go for it, I would have overjoyed with a Cisse / Defoe swap.

BTW - anyone catch Fowler's comeback perfomance for Liverpool? Scored a late winner ... crowd went nuts ... only to be called offside. :(

Critch

02-02-2006, 07:49 AM

Who had February 2nd in the preseason "when will Souness get the boot" sweepstake? Because he's good and gone.

Now I just have to hope that Glasgow Rangers don't take him back.

moriarty

02-02-2006, 09:44 AM

Back in August I had Souness going at the end of the year, but not February.

I think they're a good team (i.e. they have talent) but will underperform with Souness. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but I suspect he'll be gone after this season.
.

But then again Isiddiqui had him staying even longer.
I think with Owen and Luque along with Parker and Emre, Newcastle will probablt do well enough to make the UEFA Cup with that talent. Souness's job should be ok for this year.

Sorry Isiddiqui, I couln't resist. :p

ISiddiqui

02-02-2006, 11:56 AM

Well, I think my statement shows why Souness was canned. ALL FOUR of the players I mentioned had injuries that kept them out of a number of games. Owen has been gone for a month or so, Luque was gone for a long time early this year. Parker was out for a few weeks. And has Emre even played 2 games in a row?!

daedalus

02-03-2006, 03:20 AM

Good. God. We. FUCKING. Suck.

Who needs to transfer in defenders when you have Pascal Cygan? Who needs to transfer in defenders when you can get beat by West Ham with a backline of 2 midfielders (Flamini and Larsson) and 2 teenagers (Djourou and Senderos)? De Jong, Shma Jong! We have Pascal Cygan!

Me? Bitter? Nah, not anymore than the average Red Sox fans (pre-'04).

Damn it, if we suck any worse, we'll be confused for White Hart Lane residents.

----

*For the record, I am aware that they're above us in the table for now and are probably far more deserving of a Champion's League spot next season than we are. But, y'know, insulting Sp*rs is never, ever (and I mean EVER) out of fashion.

Coder

02-03-2006, 03:24 AM

Been reading that Chris Waddle thinks Eriksson will be the next Newcastle manager.. I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell Eriksson will ever coach in England again..

Blade6119

02-03-2006, 03:40 AM

Interesting to see the african nations cup, as a few of my FM players are starting for teams competing(3 nigeria, 1 ivory coast, 1 South Africa)....very interesting to see...FM has increased my world knowledge of soccer so much its crazy

Critch

02-03-2006, 07:25 AM

Been reading that Chris Waddle thinks Eriksson will be the next Newcastle manager.. I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell Eriksson will ever coach in England again..

Why not? It was only last week that he was saying he'd like to be the new manager of Aston Villa if they are taken over. He'll go where ever he gets paid.

Coder

02-03-2006, 09:27 AM

Why not? It was only last week that he was saying he'd like to be the new manager of Aston Villa if they are taken over. He'll go where ever he gets paid.

Not a chance. The Sheikh-thing was the last drop (and that's where he mentioned Villa)... He'll either go back to Rome (Lazio in particular, but Roma is a stronger contender), or he'll be in Madrid next year. The press has kicked him out of England.

ISiddiqui

02-03-2006, 09:32 AM

Yeah, I don't see him as shying away from the money... do I want him in Newcastle.. that's another story ;).

SirFozzie

02-04-2006, 02:31 AM

Coder

02-04-2006, 03:53 AM

Wow.. the tabloids strike again:

Got this from a person who should know:

A British tabloid is apparently running a story this weekend "outing" two high-profile EPL players - England international players at that. It's the same paper have already screwed up England's chances of potentially winning the World Cup with the Sven scandal.

Apparently the rumors have it that the players to be forcibly outed are Jenas and Campbell, thus why Campbell has been having such issues.

This is the absolute worst part about England.. the tabloids.. I don't see how any of this has ANY relevance at all to the "public". If Campbell is gay, which I don't give a flying fuck about, the only "benefit" of this being known to the public is that he'll feel more uncomfortable as a player/person if it's known (or he would have gone public himself).. The end result is that the newspapers have once again weakened the English squad..

What the hell.. has someone checked the nationalities of the reporters writing these stories? Are they all from Trinidad & Tobago?

This is exactly the kind of "journalism" that made me not pursue reporting as a career after school and made me look in other directions. It's at it's peak in England, but it's coming here to Sweden as well. These journalists are creating news rather than reporting news.

ISiddiqui

02-04-2006, 06:34 PM

YAY, Magpies! Get rid of Souey, get 3 points, Shearer gets his 201st. Great week all in all :D.

FrogMan

02-04-2006, 06:47 PM

wow, crazy, crazy quarter final between Cameroon and Ivroy Coast in the African Cup of Nations. 0-0 after 90 minutes, 1-1 after extra time, all 22 players scored on their first attempt and it took until the first round of the next 11 to break the tie :eek: ... Look at this:

Penalty shoot-out:

11-12 Didier Drogba puts Ivory Coast into the last four.
11-11 Samuel Eto'o fires over with his second shoot-out penalty.
11-11 Ivory Coast keeper Jean-Jacques Tizie scores.
11-10 Cameroon keeper Souleymanou Hamidou scores.
10-10 Marco Zoro scores. It is down to the keepers.
10-9 Stephane Bikey scores for Cameroon.
9-9 Didier Zokora holds his nerve for Ivory Coast.
9-8 Rudolph Douala scores for Cameroon.
8-8 Arthur Boka scores for Ivory Coast.
8-7 Alioum Saidou scores at the second attempt. His first shot was saved but the keeper was penalised for coming off his line.
7-7 Christian Koffi Ndri keeps Ivory Coast in it.
7-6 Cameroon skipper Rigobert Song finds the top corner.
6-6 Blaise Kossi Kouassi cooly strokes the ball home.
6-5 Jean Makoun's penalty just eludes Jean-Jacques Tizie.
5-5 Arouna Kone keeps Ivory Coast in the tie.
5-4 Albert Ze Meyong scores for Cameroon.
4-4 Emerse Fae sends the goalkeeper the wrong way.
4-3 Daniel Ngom Kome scores for Cameroon.
3-3 Bakari Kone slots home a cool penalty.
3-2 Thimothee Atouba puts Cameroon back in front.
2-2 Kolo Toure scores for Ivory Coast with a great penalty.
2-1 Njitap Geremi smashes the ball home for Cameroon.
1-1 Didier Drogba scores for Ivory Coast
1-0 Samuel Eto'o puts Cameroon ahead.

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/4679194.stm

FM

terpkristin

02-04-2006, 06:50 PM

Yeah, FM, I saw that (it was in the "Latest Headlines" in Firefox).

How crazy, but congrats to Ivory Coast!

/tk

Mac Howard

02-04-2006, 07:54 PM

This is the absolute worst part about England.. the tabloids.. I don't see how any of this has ANY relevance at all to the "public".

Unfortunately, the tabloids print what people buy. This rag has been around for a long time, it's filled its pages with crap for all that time and it's always been popular. I have to admit that it sometimes makes me ashamed to be British :( :rolleyes:

Critch

02-05-2006, 12:12 AM

daedalus

02-05-2006, 04:53 AM

Damn it.

Sorry, Frogger, but I was rather hoping Cameroon would have advanced. We need Manu and Kolo back, badly.

Desnudo

02-07-2006, 07:35 PM

Adu to Chelsea for $9 million? If he complains about lack of playing time at DC United, what does he think is going to happen there?

ISiddiqui

02-07-2006, 07:36 PM

MLS is denying it. It would seem strange, though, because Adu is not 18 yet.

DaddyTorgo

02-07-2006, 07:39 PM

WASHINGTON -- Major League Soccer insists Freddy Adu will play for D.C. United for the "forseeable future," denying a British newspaper report of a deal that would send the 16-year-old prodigy this year to Premier League power Chelsea. 

The Times of London reported that Chelsea is in advanced stages of negotiations with MLS, which holds Adu's rights, for a transfer fee of about $8.7 million.

"We haven't had any discussions with any club about a transfer for Freddy," MLS deputy commissioner Ivan Gazidis said Tuesday. "He plays for D.C. and will be playing for D.C. for the foreseeable future."

Adu has often said Chelsea is his favorite team and his dream is to play in Europe. But international rules make it extremely difficult for a player to transfer overseas until he is 18. Adu will turn 18 in June 2007.

"Freddy Adu is a member of D.C. United, and we expect him to remain so through the 2007 season," United president Kevin Payne said. "Neither we nor the league has had any conversations with any club about a transfer of Freddy. Freddy knows the task before him this year is to continue to improve and become a game-in, game-out contributor to the success of D.C. United."

Adu was suspended for one playoff game last season by United for complaining publicly about playing time, but he was upbeat about contending for a regular starting spot after his first preseason practice Monday.

"I'm glad to be coming back to D.C. United," Adu said. "I don't want to go anywhere else. I get the best of both worlds, getting to live at home and play for the best franchise in MLS."

Adu was 14 when he was drafted No. 1 overall by United in 2004. United acquired the pick in a trade so Adu could continue to live with his mother in Maryland.

Adu made his U.S. national team debut Jan. 22 against Canada and has an outside shot at making the roster for the World Cup in Germany this summer.

daedalus

02-08-2006, 06:49 AM

I don't think he can. Arsenal has or had the same problem with Vela.

Of course, they can probably send him to one of their feeders for awhile.

MIJB#19

02-08-2006, 06:54 AM

I don't think he can. Arsenal has or had the same problem with Vela.

Of course, they can probably send him to one of their feeders for awhile.
PSV? Nah that would be tooo obvious...

Blade6119

02-08-2006, 07:03 AM

PSV? Nah that would be tooo obvious...
I wouldnt put it past them, apparently they already love Nguyen, another young american to top off DMB...i can see it, as i doubt he really stays MLS till hes 18

Desnudo

02-08-2006, 12:15 PM

I don't think he can. Arsenal has or had the same problem with Vela.

Of course, they can probably send him to one of their feeders for awhile.

Adu to CSKA Moscow?

FrogMan

02-09-2006, 12:55 PM

wow, are they that desperate to find a referee???

Banned referee for final

A Tunisian official, once banned for a year for trying to influence another referee, will take charge of the African Cup of Nations Cup final.

The Confederation of African Football (Caf) has announced that 43-year-old Mourad Daami will officiate the final between Egypt and Ivory Coast in Cairo.

He was banned in 2001 after being found guilty of trying to influence the referee at the 2000 African Champions League final in Ghana between Hearts of Oak and the Tunisian club Esperance.

Daami, who as at the match as a member of Esperance's delegation, entered the referee's change room to try to persuade colleague Robbie Williams of South Africa to call off the match because of rioting by spectators at Accra's National stadium.

Esperance, who were trailing on aggregate, had sought to induce several stoppages during the match in order to get it abandoned and were also later sanctioned by Caf.

Daami's ban was rescinded after nine months and in 2002 he was among the officials at the World Cup finals in Japan and South Korea.

Friday's match will be Daami's second Nations Cup final.

He also looked after the 2000 final in Lagos where Cameroon beat hosts Nigeria after a post-match penalty shootout.

That result was clouded in controversy when television replays showed that Daami had erred in disallowing a kick during the shoot-out by Nigerian Victor Ikpeba.

The ball hit the underside of the crossbar and crossed the line before bouncing out.

The mistake proved decisive as Cameroon won 4-3 on penalties after a 2-2 draw. Daami's assistants on Friday will be Brahim Djezzar of Algeria and Celestin Ntagungira of Rwanda.

Wow, you got a guy who not only once, but twice was in kinda controversial situations and you still give him a final???

I was a referee dispatch in my younger days and I can tell you that I was tougher in my selection of referees for the U16 (and even down to U12) games than these guys seems to be for a continental competition...

Coder

02-12-2006, 05:24 AM

Apparently the front page of the News of the World isn't anything about Sol Campbell and Jenas after all.

Only story about Campbell is one about him seeing a faith healer for depression, and a photograph of him with an ex-girlfriend.

Today, News of the World are reporting that "two premiership players have been caught having sex on camera," without saying who they are.

One has played several games for the national team, while the other is a midfielder with a "substantial salary".

Critch

02-12-2006, 07:11 AM

Today, News of the World are reporting that "two premiership players have been caught having sex on camera," without saying who they are.

Yeah, it's frightening. I'll never be able to set my mobile phone to vibrate ever again without thinking about it.

They're also reporting that Martin O'Neil will be the new Newcastle manager.

Critch

02-13-2006, 09:37 AM

Today, News of the World are reporting that "two premiership players have been caught having sex on camera," without saying who they are.

One has played several games for the national team, while the other is a midfielder with a "substantial salary".

Dola....

Alledgedly (from somebody who has seen the photographs) the two players involved are not Campbell or Jenas. That would fit in with the descriptions in the NotW story, they said it was a big money midfielder and a player who had long been thought of as a rebel both on and off the pitch. Although Jenas would fit the big money midfielder description, Campbell has never really been thought of as a rebel either on or off the pitch.

As we're all grown up and don't think this is any of the public's business, I won't say who the two players actually are :D

MikeVick7

02-13-2006, 11:36 AM

On an aside...I've been watching the EPL now for the last three seasons now so I don't know much about Harry Redknapp's past so I don't have much to base an opinion on him. But why am I enjoying the fact that he could manage a team right out of the EPL for the 2nd year in a row?

First he jumps ship from Portsmouth last year and joins Southampton and they procede to relegate. Now, he rejoins Portsmouth again this season and it appears that they are headed for relegation as well.

Again, he seems like a nice guy and I know that both clubs don't have the greatest talent but with all the crap that he's put himself through for the last year just makes me chuckle when I think that he could be headed to the Championship again.

Crapshoot

02-13-2006, 11:41 AM

Oh no - I dislike Rednapp as well. He's a character, but he's a charltan as well, and gets away with stuff because he's just being "Arry" - god forbid if one of the "foreign" managers dared to do what Redknapp does. :D

moriarty

02-13-2006, 12:12 PM

Desnudo

02-13-2006, 02:26 PM

Dola....

Alledgedly (from somebody who has seen the photographs) the two players involved are not Campbell or Jenas. That would fit in with the descriptions in the NotW story, they said it was a big money midfielder and a player who had long been thought of as a rebel both on and off the pitch. Although Jenas would fit the big money midfielder description, Campbell has never really been thought of as a rebel either on or off the pitch.

As we're all grown up and don't think this is any of the public's business, I won't say who the two players actually are :D

Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney.

daedalus

02-14-2006, 05:29 AM

Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney.Hrm (http://daedalus.fastmail.fm/images/roo-ronaldo.jpg)?

Galaxy

02-14-2006, 07:43 PM

I see Eddie Johnson was traded to Kansas City from FC Dallas today.

SirFozzie

02-14-2006, 08:00 PM

I see Eddie Johnson was traded to Kansas City from FC Dallas today.

And millions of KC non-fans refuse to care ;)

Dunleavy

02-15-2006, 02:58 PM

Real Madrid has supplanted Manchester United as the world's richest soccer club. (http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/5334026)

List of soccer's richest clubs (http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/5334024)

LONDON (AP) - The top 20 richest clubs, based on revenue, as listed by accountancy firm Deloitte in its independent "Football Money League" report released Thursday:

1. Real Madrid, Spain, €275.7 million (US$328.19 million).
2. Manchester United, England, €246.4 million (US$293.31 million).

3. AC Milan, Italy, €234 million (US$278.55 million).

4. Juventus, Italy, €229.4 million (US$273.08 million).

5. Chelsea, England, €220.8 million (US$262.84 million).

6. FC Barcelona, Spain, €207.9 million (US$247.48 million).

7. Bayern Munich, Germany, €189.5 million (US$225.58 million).

8. Liverpool, England, €181.2 million (US$215.7 million).

9. Inter Milan, Italy, €177.2 million (US$210.94 million).

10. Arsenal, England, €171.3 million (US$203.92 million).

11. AS Roma, Italy, €131.8 million (US$156.89 million).

12. Newcastle, England, €128.9 million (US$153.44 million).

13. Tottenham, England, €104.5 million (US$124.4 million).

14. Schalke 04, Germany, €97.4 million (US$115.94 million).

15. Lyon, France, €92.9 million (US$110.59 million).

16. Celtic, Scotland, €92.7 million (US$110.35 million).

17. Manchester City, England, €90.1 million (US$107.26 million).

18. Everton, England, €88.8 million (US$105.71 million).

19. Valencia, Spain, €84.6 million (US$100.71 million).

20. Lazio, Italy, €83.1 million (US$98.92 million).

numbers are based on match-day, broadcasting, and commerical revenue and dont take into account owners.

Blade6119

02-15-2006, 03:01 PM

I see Eddie Johnson was traded to Kansas City from FC Dallas today.
I think long term its a great move by dallas...they have to expect eddie to go europe soon, and this way they get two allocations instead of one

TazFTW

02-19-2006, 07:20 PM

Totti fractured his fibula and strained ligements in his ankle in a Serie A game and could miss the World Cup. The link to the story has a picture of the injury, so if you're squeamish it is probably not a good idea to read the story.

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/5342892

Desnudo

02-19-2006, 07:22 PM

In that same vein, Alan Smith had a horrific looking leg injury.

terpkristin

02-19-2006, 07:26 PM

OH DAMN.

That looks like it hurt.

I'm shocked he only hurt the fibula.

Granted, when I did something like that, I only tore ligaments to shreds (no breaks, I drink my milk!).

/tk

DaddyTorgo

02-19-2006, 07:41 PM

back when I didn't realize how much of a classless oaf he was Totti was one of my favorites. I would have been real sad then. Now I just say "well that's karma mothaf-er!"

Wolfpack

02-19-2006, 08:54 PM

I didn't see the injury in the picture at first. I then read the caption that said "gruesome ankle injury". Looked a little more closely at the ankle and noticed that the foot was not where I thought it would be. It was over to the right some ways. Ouch. :eek:

Katon

02-19-2006, 09:43 PM

Big blow for Italy if he misses the WC - he's been brilliant for Roma this year. Of course, he might've just gone nuts anyway, but there was also the chance he'd actually have a good tournament.

daedalus

02-20-2006, 06:34 AM

back when I didn't realize how much of a classless oaf he was Totti was one of my favorites. I would have been real sad then. Now I just say "well that's karma mothaf-er!"What did he do that's so bad? I'm asking because I know little of him beyond the fact that some of his quotes makes him sound roughly as underclued as Beckham.

SirFozzie

02-21-2006, 04:33 PM

Totti spit at folks.

In other news, Ouch. Talk about a black eye for MLS, one they didn't need shortly after the Houston 1836 fiasco.

By Steven Goff
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 20, 2006; E03

D.C. United Coach Peter Nowak denied accusations yesterday that he made an off-color comment about a Real Salt Lake player during an MLS exhibition match Friday in Bradenton, Fla.

In an interview with Utah radio station KZNS, Real Salt Lake Coach John Ellinger accused Nowak of making "some inappropriate remarks" about rookie Atiba Harris, who is from the Caribbean island nation of St. Kitts and Nevis.

Real officials believe Nowak said Harris, who is black, should be "sent back to Africa." Asked on the radio broadcast if that's what Nowak said, Ellinger responded, "You're in the ballpark."

Reached in Florida, Nowak said: "I'm really, really hurt about people saying this. Everybody knows the history in my country [Poland], about human rights, the Germans, our struggle. Someone who accuses me of this is embarrassing."

United President Kevin Payne, who was sitting on the team bench during the game, said in a prepared statement: "The D.C. United personnel who were on the bench at the time, including me, heard no such comment nor anything like it."

Payne described the incident by saying: "In an angry response directed at the referee following the third reckless and dangerous tackle by a Real Salt Lake player, Peter did shout that the player needed to be 'sent back to hospital.' . . . The Real Salt Lake technical staff reacted, at that moment, as a group, apparently misunderstanding what Peter had said."

Harris, who is on a tryout during spring training, was assessed a yellow card early in the game.

United forward Jamil Walker said he was on the bench when the incident occurred.

"Peter was telling [United rookie Kenney Bertz] to get back at their player," Walker, who is black, said in a telephone interview. "The guy was big and reckless, and he shouldn't have even been in the game. When Kevin told me after the game what the Real guys were saying, I was like, 'That's funny because that's not what he said.' Everyone heard it."

Nowak speaks broken English and sometimes has to repeat himself in interviews with English-speaking reporters.

Ellinger, a Montgomery County native, was traveling yesterday and couldn't be reached for further comment, but a team spokesman said the club was considering filing an official complaint with MLS.

"Obviously it's heat of the moment and you are responsible for what comes out of your mouth," Ellinger said in the radio interview. "It's pretty discouraging for our players as well as his players."

Added Payne: "In our view, this incident is 100 percent a misunderstanding. Those people that know Peter know that such a comment would be completely at odds with his character."

Desnudo

02-21-2006, 04:50 PM

Sounds like he didn't say it.

Although to correct the situation, they had to admit that he was telling his players to injure the other team. :)

SirFozzie

02-21-2006, 04:59 PM

yeah, that be a whoopsie. They had to get out a story fast, the proposed site of DC's new stadium is in Ward 8, who's represented by Marion Berry (yes, THAT Marion Barry), and if they were seen to be dropping the ball on a racist comment..

Welllllllll... goodbye to any neighborhood cooperation.

terpkristin

02-21-2006, 06:25 PM

...Ouch. Talk about a black eye for MLS...Real officials believe Nowak said Harris, who is black, should be "sent back to Africa." Asked on the radio broadcast if that's what Nowak said, Ellinger responded, "You're in the ballpark."...Odd, this is something that was said in a college basketball game recently. I don't remember which team, but remember hearing something about it briefly on PTI.

/tk

Dunleavy

02-22-2006, 01:20 AM

Arsenal 1-0 !!!!!!!!!

i've been waiting for a performence like that all season, well played by the defense, the 5 midfielders were outstanding and Henry!!! Henry!!! DON'T GO!!!

daedalus

02-22-2006, 07:47 AM

Okay, since the result is posted . . .

D. A. M. N.

Even as crappy as Real Madrid has been playing this season, I was not expecting to go into their stadium and take the game. Wow. Guess, even if he can't play in England, Reyes will always have something special for Real Madrid.

Galaxy

02-22-2006, 01:46 PM

Anyone watching FC Barcelona-Chelsea on ESPN2?

Katon

02-22-2006, 02:38 PM

Yes.

I hate the type of fan who's convinced that there's an official conspiracy to stop his team winning, and I really object to the way UEFA seem determined to turn me into one.

Crapshoot

02-22-2006, 02:46 PM

According to the BBC commentary, the pitch is just ridiculous at Stamford Bridge. They can spend $300 million on players and can't lay a pitch (even when the window previously existed) ?

Katon

02-22-2006, 03:43 PM

It's not that ridiculous by February-in-England standards. Or compared to Stamford Bridge the year before Roman. And yes, we could lay a pitch, but a) we haven't had a long enough spell without home games recently and b) last time we did that $18 million of player (figure approximate as I can't be bothered to look it up) broke his foot on it

Crapshoot

02-22-2006, 03:46 PM

Katon,
by their own admission - there was a 2-week window where they had no games where they could have laid the pitch, and they declined to at the time. The timing, as it were, seemed awfully strange.

Katon

02-22-2006, 04:15 PM

Looking at the schedule, you're right. They did.

On the other hand, the point about Scott Parker blaming his injury on the strips of the newly-laid pitch last year still applies. And honestly, how much do we really benefit? Since that two-week window, our home games have been against Liverpool (4-5-1 with Peter Crouch up front), Everton (who we slaughtered without playing too many long balls), Colchester (who actually were passing better than us for most of the match, to be fair), and Barca (who were playing it long as often as we were before the game got spoiled). The only time I can remember seeing the pitch foul something up in today's game, it was a potentially threatening combination between Gudjohnsen and Crespo.

SirFozzie

02-22-2006, 05:54 PM

In one of the First games MLS teams will play this year (surely, one of the first two OFFICIAL games), the New England Revolution are in Bermuda, taking on LD Alajuelense of Costa Rica in the first round of the CONCACAF Champions Cup (The revs decided to play their home leg in Bermuda where they are training, rather then come back for this game).. in the only game NOT available on FSC in this whole round (even the 2nd leg will be available), it's 0-0 at Halftime.

Desnudo

02-22-2006, 06:46 PM

That second half. All I can say is wow, I'm glad I tivo'd it. Ronaldinho is insanely good. Making world class players look like playschoolers. Sure Barca was up a man, but still.

Katon

02-22-2006, 06:58 PM

I was more impressed by Messi actually, apart from the dive. MOTM after Terry, in my opinion. They were both damn good, though. And don't underestimate how important the extra man is. Being down to ten men meant that we couldn't press the ball or get any useful number of people forward without leaving some fairly large open space in our half - which is suicide against a team as good offensively as Barca. Barca were great, but the ref completely killed our ability to try and match them. It wasn't particularly funny the first time and it's getting pretty damn old by now.

Desnudo

02-22-2006, 07:02 PM

I didn't see the first half, but he did let a clear penalty on Terry go in the second. First he runs straight over Messi and then he handles the ball.

Crapshoot

02-22-2006, 07:24 PM

That second half. All I can say is wow, I'm glad I tivo'd it. Ronaldinho is insanely good. Making world class players look like playschoolers. Sure Barca was up a man, but still.

I wish I had now - following it on BBC, it was like having a heart attack. :D

SirFozzie

02-22-2006, 07:28 PM

Full time in Bermuda, 0-0.. so the Revs need at least a draw (no away goals rule in this tournament)

Katon

02-22-2006, 07:35 PM

That was probably a penalty, yes. There might be a case Messi was obstructing Terry - not sure of the exact wording of that rule - but that was a mistake in Chelsea's favor.

Against that:

- It appears he applauded the Barca fans before kickoff. Didn't see it myself, as I wasn't watching yet, but that and the whole 'close friends with Anders Frisk' thing really don't help suggest a fair refereeing setup

- On to actual calls, that red was completely indefensible. Yellow maybe; red was a joke. And that, in and of itself, was a game-changing decision. We've played Barca 11v11 for one full match and two partial matches over the past yearish; those games have ranged from being essentially even to our being the better team. We've played them 10v11 for two partial matches adding up to about 90 minutes; except for the first ten minutes of the second half today, they've slaughtered us both times. Barca deserved to win on the balance of play, but it's not exaggerating to say that the entire difference was due to Del Horno getting sent off.

- Robben got no protection. Oleguer should've been booked at some point for the fouls he kept putting in (he eventually got a card, but it was for holding on to the ball). Puyol should have walked; he committed a couple of yellow-worthy fouls in the second half, and that would have been two for him if he'd been called on it.

- Drogba getting called back for an illusory offside when he was racing Valdes to the ball.

- This actually worked both ways, but he gave several really bizarre corners (two to Barca, one to Chelsea).

And again, this is not the first time we've had this problem. After the amount of crap we've had to put up with from UEFA recently, it would at least be nice to lose in the CL because we genuinely couldn't match our opponents.

Desnudo

02-22-2006, 07:56 PM

That call was textbook. That was two penalties, one for running over Messi and the other for handling the ball in the penalty area. Messi was clearly in a better position to play the ball and Terry ran straight over him. Granted it didn't look intentional, but that doesn't matter except on whether or not he should be carded also.

Like I said, I didn't see the first half. I agree on the Drogba offsides, although that was the linesman making the call. Plus we all know Drogba would have skied it into Row Z anyway. Drogba, who also should have scored on another clear chance anway.

Katon

02-22-2006, 08:12 PM

Like I said, that was a mistake in Chelsea's favor.

The other penalty wasn't. Geremi was turning away from the ball when it was struck two yards away from him. It clearly hit his hand, but it also has to be intentional to be a penalty, and it pretty clearly wasn't. Plus that was from one of the absurd corners.

It's true that the Drogba offsides was the linesman (and probably true that he would've missed it anyway), but that wasn't really the center of my complaints. If you let us keep Del Horno *and* send off Puyol, we're probably favorites to win the tie right now; one or the other, and it's even; screw both up, and we're going to need to be at our best to salvage this. And this after everything we had to deal with last year, too.

Desnudo

02-22-2006, 08:19 PM

My favorite commentary was when the Irish guy said, paraphrased, "you know, I'd have to say that I think Eto'o is a better striker than Drogba.

tanglewood

02-22-2006, 08:22 PM

The sending off was an absolute joke. I was wondering if the ref was going to book him or let him off and was completely shocked when he produced the red card. Ridiculous decision.

As for the other decisions, the Trry challenge was a good shout for a penalty, would need to see it again but I think it probably was, the Geremi handball was certainly not a penalty and generally in the second half the officials seemed to favour Barca.

I think it was a really good match to follow, Barca probably deserved to win in the endm, but I echo above comments that Del Horno getting sent off was crucial.

Desnudo

02-22-2006, 08:25 PM

The Geremi handball, was that the play that led to the free kick goal?

Katon

02-22-2006, 08:50 PM

Nope. It was off a corner at the end of the first half. The free kick goal came from a stupid foul by Carvalho.

I'd also agree that Barca absolutely deserved to win. They didn't give anything away early and when it came time to attack they were brilliant. But the thing is, we didn't lose because we couldn't match them. We didn't lose because the players didn't show up (except for Del Horno; what I would've given to have Bridge there). We lost because the ref unbalanced the match quite badly in their favour and they're too good a team to let that kind of advantage go.

Critch

02-22-2006, 09:34 PM

TredWel

02-22-2006, 09:49 PM

The other penalty wasn't. Geremi was turning away from the ball when it was struck two yards away from him. It clearly hit his hand, but it also has to be intentional to be a penalty, and it pretty clearly wasn't.
AFAIK (and I ref soccer, so I better well know), the player doesn't have to intentionally handle the ball for a penalty to be called. The only time you let handling go is if the player's hands/arms contact the ball while in a normal position, i.e. at their sides. The ball hitting your fully extended arm while your body is turning away is still handling, whether you meant it or not.

Overall, I was surprised by the poor overall officiating. Del Horno's tackle should have only been a yellow, and Messi should probably have been booked as well for leaping into Del Horno in the first place. Combine that with three missed penalties and some phantom corners, and I was surprised that the commentating team was calling this ref one of the best.

Katon

02-22-2006, 09:52 PM

A yellow for the tackle before would have been fair, but if you do that then he probably takes a different approach to the later tackles (at least I'd hope so). As for the "rolling around faking death", it was a full-on collision (and Messi was actually jumping onto Del Horno, though I agree it was mostly Del Horno's fault). Those hurt. Not saying he didn't exaggerate it, but you'll see a lot of players go much further without getting called on it. That's not where the definition of simulation is at the moment.

I've got no sympathy for Del Horno - he didn't quite deserve a red, but he was running closer to getting carded than he ought to have been. The rest of the team, however, deserved a fair and even match against Barca. They missed out on that because the ref misplayed things badly.

Katon

02-22-2006, 10:00 PM

AFAIK (and I ref soccer, so I better well know), the player doesn't have to intentionally handle the ball for a penalty to be called. The only time you let handling go is if the player's hands/arms contact the ball while in a normal position, i.e. at their sides. The ball hitting your fully extended arm while your body is turning away is still handling, whether you meant it or not.

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".
Full article

here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm).

I grant you that an arm up before the ball is kicked is usually something of a grey area. But he was turning and his arms were turning with him before the ball was kicked. I really don't see, looking at the play, where you get 'deliberately' from, and the word is in the rule for a reason.

TredWel

02-22-2006, 10:51 PM

12.9 DELIBERATE HANDLING
The offense known as "handling the ball" involves deliberate contact with the ball by a player's
hand or arm (including fingertips, upper arm, or outer shoulder). "Deliberate contact" means
that the player could have avoided the touch but chose not to, that the player's arms were not in a
normal playing position at the time, or that the player deliberately continued an initially
accidental contact for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage. Moving hands or arms
instinctively to protect the body when suddenly faced with a fast approaching ball does not
constitute deliberate contact unless there is subsequent action to direct the ball once contact is
made. Likewise, placing hands or arms to protect the body at a free kick or similar restart is not
likely to produce an infringement unless there is subsequent action to direct or control the ball.
The fact that a player may benefit from the ball contacting the hand does not transform the
otherwise accidental event into an infringement. A player infringes the Law regarding handling
the ball even if direct contact is avoided by holding something in the hand (clothing, shinguard,
etc.).
Emphasis mine.

Granted, I was trained under the auspices of the USSF, and this is a USSF publication. FIFA may treat this differently, but the USSF has done their darndest to fall into line with FIFA in as many ways as possible.

Katon

02-22-2006, 11:45 PM

Fair enough. Hadn't seen the exact wording before. For what it's worth, there was a penalty awarded to Barca in last year's tie that seemed to come off some pretty similar advice to what you have bolded (and it wasn't one of the bad calls I was griping about upthread).

After downloading an avi of the appeal, "not in a normal playing position" covers it quite nicely. The only question is whether his arm was up to protect his face (which would be fair game) or because he was being an idiot. I'm not entirely sure, honestly.

In any case, the whole play came about off one of the phantom corners, so there's a limit to how enthusiastic I can be about him not awarding a penalty against us from it.

Incidentally, above you mentioned you thought the ref missed three penalties. The Terry and Geremi ones are obvious; what was the third?

TredWel

02-23-2006, 06:28 AM

I don't remember the exact details, but early on there was a Barca player who got away with handling in the box. It was the least egregious of the three missed penalties, but missed nonetheless.

TazFTW

02-23-2006, 06:34 AM

I saw the game on ESPN2, it was probably the first time since the World Cup that I've seen Ronaldinho play. Only other times were in highlight clips like hxxp://www.youtube.com/?v=4VPdFKmNkOY

Very impressive. Although in the first half I felt Chelsea did a good job containing him (aside from a chance or two). It was only when they went a man down that he had the room to maneuver.

AlexB

02-23-2006, 07:52 AM

Del Horno should have got a yellow for the tackle (Messi nipped the ball away and Del Horno's boot came through late and high, not an attempt to play the ball), he should have got a yellow for the rolling over faking death after the tackle. And he should have got at least a yellow for the knee high tackle on Messi before. So I've got no sympathy for him.

This is how I saw it, except in the first case del Horno did play the play intentionally, but did so with the full knowledge and aim to carry on through to messi aftwerwards. It should have been a yellow through, and then the red card incident should have been a 2nd yellow (but as Katon says, if he was already on a card maybe he wouldn;t have carried out the challenge)

Their right back should have been booked for repeated fouling early-ish in the 2nd half, Puyol should have been booked for a challenge on Robben (I think it was Robben) when he was already on a yellow (can;t remember what for) and Droghba was onside (but you see these missed a lot, and he probably would have fucked it up anyway ;) )

The Messi/Terry incident was in no way a penalty - Messi had a quick glance at Terry before contact to make sure he was in the way - definite obstruction. And I don't think the Geremi penalty was either.

But the one thing that pisses me off more than anything in this is how Mourinho can (correctly) accuse Messi of acting, yet defend Robben for his actions against Liverpool (when he went down as if being hit with a knockout punch after Reina put his hands on him and then pushed him away). This is the problem with diving - everybody is quick to castigate the opposition, but when they gain an advantage themselves, suddenly they see nothing wrong: until this hypocrisy stops we will still see over-acting and attempts to get players sent off.

(FWIW I think Reina should have gone anyway in that incident, a yellow for the tackle on Gudjohnsen and a yellow for raising his hands to Robben. Robben should have got at least a yellow for his actions)

AlexB

02-23-2006, 07:55 AM

Dola,

Amazingly the only manager I can think of to criticise his own player for diving is the detestable Sam Allardyce, and the only reason he did so was because he felt the exaggerated dive meant they didn't get a pen - not exactly an overwhelming castigation of the ideology of diving...

Butter

02-23-2006, 08:03 AM

Desnudo

02-23-2006, 12:37 PM

The Messi/Terry incident was in no way a penalty - Messi had a quick glance at Terry before contact to make sure he was in the way - definite obstruction.

Obstruction? He's in the Chelsea box with the ball about to land at his feet.

bhlloy

02-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Messi/Terry was definitely not a penalty. Terry was trying to play the ball, Messi was obstructing him. At first I thought it was a stonewall penalty but watching the replay - not a chance. Terry's eyes were completely on the ball and Messi was just trying to get in his way and went down like a sack of shit.

The handball was a penalty IMO, maybe not deliberate but it's a shot on goal and his hand does not need to be out there at all. 80% of the time it is given, but after the red card that's a brave ref that makes that call. And no, I don't care what the wacky FIFA interpretation is :)

Red card was a joke but I missed the earlier challenge and only saw the red card incident on the half-time highlights. Either way, not a straight red. Sounds like the referee was a) covering up for his mistake in not booking Del Horno earlier or b) trying to make a name for himself. Either way is bad and he should be removed from further important tournaments. He was very poor for the second half as well, the Barca right back should have been sent off for numerous deliberate fouls on Robben.

Desnudo

02-23-2006, 01:21 PM

Yes, I watched the close up replay and it's not as clear cut as he does appear to cut his run into Terry's path. It's hard to say whether or not he's positioning for the ball. He went down like a "sack of shit" of course because Terry ran over him at full speed. Not many players would be able to stand up after being hit full on the run. Personally, I think the English press would be screaming bloody murder if that had happened to Chelsea. Instead it's a dirty Argentine player who's at fault.

Katon

02-23-2006, 01:39 PM

I just knew after watching that game that the Chelsea fans would be complaining about the refereeing taking them out of the Champions League again. All I can say is that maybe, in truth, the Overlords of British Football just aren't quite up to it in the biggest of games.

Uh-huh. For the record, Chelsea went out last year because our offence went missing for two straight games (which may not be entirely unrelated to our having only one fit winger, to go back to the SWP discussion). Liverpool weren't any great shakes either, but if you can't score over two matches you don't deserve to go through. The lousy officiating was all in previous rounds:

- Drogba's sending off in the first leg against Barca. Turned the game, and if going for a loose ball (which it was, at the time he made the challenge) with your foot at that height is a bookable offence then Luis Garcia should've been shot on the semifinal goal

- Mourinho and Chelsea getting heavily fined, described as "the enemies of football", and repeatedly blasted by UEFA officials before the hearing for complaining about a significant breach of the rules that UEFA's stadium official personally witnessed and mentioned in his report.

- The entire quarterfinal, pretty much. Chelsea overcome our big-game problems to hammer Bayern and go 4-1 up in the first leg, then Ballack gets a silly penalty and it's 4-2. In the second leg, we score first, then Pizarro equalizes from an offside position. Drogba puts us back ahead, then Bayern score twice in some heavily extended stoppage time.

And by the way . . . we beat Barcelona last year from a very similar position to this. We hammered Bayern. We beat Man U and Liverpool to win the Carling Cup last year. We've done the double in the league over Man U last year, Arsenal this year, and Liverpool both years. We do fine in big games. If you want chokers, try Barca; they still haven't beaten Chelsea 11v11, and they made a bit of a mess of their domestic cup semi recently.

I don't think Jose actually defended Robben; just pointed out that focusing more on Robben than on the actual match or on what the hell Reina was doing with the tackle and the face-grab was a rather odd choice. But yeah, if he's going to complain about Messi then he really ought to admit Robben was in the wrong. And there was a certain irony to his complaining before the match that Deco has been known to dive.

TazFTW

03-07-2006, 08:07 AM

As an FYI, ESPN2 is not showing the Barca/Chelsea match live because of the World Baseball Classic game between the US and Mexico. They are showing it on tape delay.

Butter

03-07-2006, 08:20 AM

If you want chokers, try Barca; they still haven't beaten Chelsea 11v11.

LOL

Crapshoot

03-07-2006, 08:41 AM

Dear Santa,
for Christmas, I want a striker who costs less than 30 million pounds (our current outlay), and who can score a bloody goal.

regards,
Every Goddamn Liverpool fan.

Katon

03-07-2006, 02:39 PM

LOL

If you're going to insist on calling one of the top club teams in the world chokers, then Barca are clearly your men. In a context where they're being compared to other teams besides Chelsea (or Juve & Lyon, to complete the set of elite sides), obviously they're not chokers.

note: I'm not following the match at the moment - too nervewracking if I can't get a visual feed - so if Barca are making me look like an idiot then rest assured I'll realize that when I finally see the score

TazFTW

03-08-2006, 01:37 AM

Just watched the tape delay, Ronaldinho is a beast. "Get out of my way, John Terry!"

The same thing is happening for the Arsenal/Real Madrid match (being shown on tape delay on ESPN2).

Desnudo

03-08-2006, 01:40 AM

I'm getting Canada v. South Africa baseball. Yawn. What time is the Arsenal replay on?

TazFTW

03-08-2006, 01:45 AM

I'm getting Canada v. South Africa baseball. Yawn. What time is the Arsenal replay on?
The Barca/Chelsea match was just airing before this World Baseball Classic game.

Arsenal/Real Madrid will be airing at the same time slot as the Barca/Chelsea match, 12:30 AM Eastern (Thursday) also known as 9:30 PM Wednesday Pacific time.

Desnudo

03-08-2006, 01:52 AM

Thanks. For some reason I thought they played today as well. I did manage to catch the last 30 minutes of Chelsea/Barca. The last 30 didn't exactly inspire me, except Ronaldinho of course. Did Messi play at all?

TazFTW

03-08-2006, 02:06 AM

moriarty

03-08-2006, 07:39 AM

Dear Santa,
for Christmas, I want a striker who costs less than 30 million pounds (our current outlay), and who can score a bloody goal.

regards,
Every Goddamn Liverpool fan.

^^ Amen to that. Have any of our strikers acutally scored a premiership goal in 2006 yet?

Doesn't bode well for today's game needing two goals to advance in the champions league.

Katon

03-08-2006, 01:48 PM

If you're going to insist on calling one of the top club teams in the world chokers, then Barca are clearly your men. In a context where they're being compared to other teams besides Chelsea (or Juve & Lyon, to complete the set of elite sides), obviously they're not chokers.

note: I'm not following the match at the moment - too nervewracking if I can't get a visual feed - so if Barca are making me look like an idiot then rest assured I'll realize that when I finally see the score

After seeing the result . . . well. I still think there's as much room for concern about Barca's performance in big games as there is about Chelsea's (not much, for the record), looking at what the two teams have done over the last couple of years. But this Barca team is better than last season's, played very well, deserve to be through, and have to be the favorites now.

Marc Vaughan

03-08-2006, 02:09 PM

^^ Amen to that. Have any of our strikers acutally scored a premiership goal in 2006 yet?

Doesn't bode well for today's game needing two goals to advance in the champions league.
I think they're in with a reasonable chance (15 mins in now, still 0-0 - time will tell ;) ).

Crapshoot

03-08-2006, 02:11 PM

I think they're in with a reasonable chance (15 mins in now, still 0-0 - time will tell ;) ).

Aha,
to sleep, perchance to dream about it. :D

For the life of me, I don't see why Morientes is starting over Cisse. Cisse at least has pace - but seems forever consigned to the bench - when he starts, he looks good, but Benitez usually has him on the right as opposed to in a striker's role. Cisse and Crouch seem like they would be able to compliment each other. Morientes - man, I dont know what happened to the guy who would poach goals anywhere and everywhere.

Crapshoot

03-08-2006, 02:32 PM

Damnit!
For Simao to score just hurts. Benfica accepted a goddamn offer for him, then changed their mind at the last minute. Its too much to hope for another Olympiakos or Milan game.

moriarty

03-08-2006, 03:36 PM

Damnit!
For Simao to score just hurts. Benfica accepted a goddamn offer for him, then changed their mind at the last minute. Its too much to hope for another Olympiakos or Milan game.

We should have upped the ante.

Ah well, it was an uphill battle with Morientes (can't remember the last goal he actually scored) starting, and Traore and Warnock on the pitch. Maybe a good side to face Birmingham City, but not Benifica.

moriarty

03-08-2006, 03:39 PM

Dola,

Just for fun take a look at the ESPN soccernet match tracker, shot tracker for the Liverpool game:
Liverpool 25 shots 0 goals. Benfica 7 shots 2 goals.

I miss Mr. Owen. :(

Crapshoot

03-08-2006, 03:41 PM

Bloody hell, what happened to Morientes ? Seriously ? He's a poacher, and the service at Liverpool, while not up to Madrid level, is still from a midfield of Kewell, Gerard, Alonso and co - has he lost even that ability ?

AlexB

03-08-2006, 04:43 PM

Dola,

Just for fun take a look at the ESPN soccernet match tracker, shot tracker for the Liverpool game:
Liverpool 25 shots 0 goals. Benfica 7 shots 2 goals.

I miss Mr. Owen. :(

If you a pkm of the the game you might want to send this to Marc Vaughan, it's probably the tactics, or the players, but the stats look wrong somehow ;)

Desnudo

03-08-2006, 11:06 PM

No spoilers please, but is the Arsenal - RM match worth watching?

SirFozzie

03-08-2006, 11:18 PM

I'd say yes.

Desnudo

03-08-2006, 11:33 PM

Thanks. Right now I'm seeing Steve Smith instead of soccer which I find unfortunate.

Desnudo

03-09-2006, 12:09 AM

Henry one of the few true sportsman in soccer. Studs up challenge and he stays upright. Ronaldo on the other hand...

Great play-by-play announcer with unmatched horrible analyst. Has this combo ever been topped? It's like putting Bob Costas and Paul McGuire together.

Mac Howard

03-09-2006, 12:11 AM

No spoilers please, but is the Arsenal - RM match worth watching?

Yes, it's a real cat-and-mouse game. Lot's of interesting stuff :)

daedalus

03-09-2006, 02:00 AM

FUCK. I didn't know the match would be televised so I didn't watch for it. Damn it all.

Still glad we went through, though. And, if what I have been reading about Eboue is correct, I would be damn glad to surrender some players every single year for the ANC if they come back as much improved as he has.

SOME. :D

Didn't see our game but I feel like Real and Chelsea did their opponents a favour by not starting Robinho and Gudjohnsen.

moriarty

03-09-2006, 07:20 AM

If you a pkm of the the game you might want to send this to Marc Vaughan, it's probably the tactics, or the players, but the stats look wrong somehow ;)

Funny, that was my first thought when I saw the shot chart. If this was FM, someone would have posted it as a bug by now. I think someone on the FM staff must have purposely lowered Morientes' hidden ratings.

Critch

03-09-2006, 07:30 AM

Funny, that was my first thought when I saw the shot chart. If this was FM, someone would have posted it as a bug by now. I think someone on the FM staff must have purposely lowered Morientes' hidden ratings.

If Liverpool had got that many shots in FM, Cisse would have scored 6. He's Player of the Year and averaging over a goal a game in my career, keeps on bursting through defences and smacking in goals. He's not nearly as crap as he is in real life :)

Watched the AC Milan v Bayern game yesterday, great performance from Milan. Fingers crossed for a Milan v Barcelona final.

daedalus

03-09-2006, 09:21 AM

Damn Liverpool fans . . . you're crossing your fingers for a Barcelona v Arsenal final.

Get it right. :D

moriarty

03-09-2006, 09:55 AM

Damn Liverpool fans . . . you're crossing your fingers for a Barcelona v Arsenal final.

Get it right. :D

I think Milan - Barcelona makes for a better match, but I don't have a problem rooting for Arsenal the rest of the way. I respect the way they play, even if I'll be booing them on Sunday.

Now if it was Chelsea or Man U, forget about it.

Desnudo

03-09-2006, 12:34 PM

Lyon v. Barcelona is what I'm hoping for. Fred \0/

Katon

03-09-2006, 01:11 PM

Didn't see our game but I feel like Real and Chelsea did their opponents a favour by not starting Robinho and Gudjohnsen.

Probably. I haven't seen our game, since staying up til two a couple of days before a midterm just to watch an incredibly frustrating performance seemed somewhat masochistic, but from what I gather keeping possession in midfield and connecting with the front three was our main problem. That's what Eidur's really good for as a midfielder; we certainly don't play him there for his tackling.

Crapshoot

03-09-2006, 02:17 PM

I think Milan - Barcelona makes for a better match, but I don't have a problem rooting for Arsenal the rest of the way. I respect the way they play, even if I'll be booing them on Sunday.

Now if it was Chelsea or Man U, forget about it.

Ditto. I like Arsenal as a style of play and as a team - they play good football.

Crapshoot

03-24-2006, 11:49 AM

http://football365.com/teams/liverpool/story_180848.shtml

apparently, there were legs to the Defoe-Cisse swap story I mentioned earlier - though I'm kind of shocked Benitez went out and said it.

moriarty

03-24-2006, 12:54 PM

http://football365.com/teams/liverpool/story_180848.shtml

apparently, there were legs to the Defoe-Cisse swap story I mentioned earlier - though I'm kind of shocked Benitez went out and said it.

Wow, as a Liverpool fan I'd take that swap in a second. I wonder if Benitez is throwing it out there just to raise Defoe's discontent and force Tottenham's hand. Doesn't seem like something Rafa would do, but maybe he's getting impatient.

-apoc-

03-28-2006, 06:05 AM

Since ESPN isnt showing the Ars - Juve game anyone know where i can watch it on the net? I don't mind spending a couple bucks on it if I have to.

Critch

03-28-2006, 07:55 AM

Since ESPN isnt showing the Ars - Juve game anyone know where i can watch it on the net? I don't mind spending a couple bucks on it if I have to.

The Arsenal game is on Setanta, if you can find a bar that has it.

No idea abouot the net, you may be able to find it messing about with PPLive.

SirFozzie

03-28-2006, 09:14 AM

Love my Setanta Sports ;)

$12 a mo.. for all the Soccer, Rugby and soon Aussie Rules ;)

Critch

03-28-2006, 12:16 PM

Hearts v Hibs Scottish Cup Semi-final is on live on Setanta this weekend. Looking forward to it already.

And I'll believe the Aussie Rules football when it's announced officially and not before :)

AlexB

03-28-2006, 01:50 PM

I cannot believe how good Kolo Toure is compared to when he first arrived at Arsenal. Unbelieveable.

On second thoughts, just: I can't believe how good Kolo Toure is. That is all I need to say.

-apoc-

03-28-2006, 01:53 PM

I found the game on a chinese ESPN thing. So aside from some slight buffering and chinese commentary im happy :)

daedalus

03-28-2006, 02:12 PM

When he first arrived, Kolo really needed a steadying influence alongside of him (like Sol) to shine. Now, *he* has become that commanding centreback in the back of the line. He was good before the ACN but has become ridiculously good afterward.

As has Manu Eboué, actually.

daedalus

03-28-2006, 02:14 PM

Is it just me or is that at least one (if not two) handball in the box that could have been called against Barca?

daedalus

03-28-2006, 02:30 PM

I'm fucking pissed. The Arse's game against Juve was suppose to be on at 12PM (according to Yahoo's fucking listing). I turn it on at noon and there's 30 minutes left in Barca's game.

Feh.

At least it's an entertaining game.

AlexB

03-28-2006, 02:38 PM

SirFozzie

03-28-2006, 03:06 PM

Hearts v Hibs Scottish Cup Semi-final is on live on Setanta this weekend. Looking forward to it already.

And I'll believe the Aussie Rules football when it's announced officially and not before :)

You mean when they've put the first week's up? :D

daedalus

03-28-2006, 03:17 PM

Apparently, his pace is on par with Ash and Clichy. His ability to go forward had been there since he arrived but his defense had been somewhat suspect. I think he's put himself well ahead of Justin Hoyte since his return from the ANC. I *still* think that, unfortunately, Wenger will still start Lauren ahead of Eboué when he returns since Wenger tends to be extremely loyal.

It won't happen but I'd love to see Eboué remain in the first XI and Lauren move over to the defensive midfield slot since I think he can be a better partner for Cesc than Gilberto (who is a quality player, just not a good partner for Cesc).

Critch

03-28-2006, 03:19 PM

You mean when they've put the first week's up? :D

It's on the website? I didn't notice anything, only mention I saw of Aussie Rules on Setanta was the post on Big Soccer that you made.

SirFozzie

03-28-2006, 04:00 PM

It's on the website? I didn't notice anything, only mention I saw of Aussie Rules on Setanta was the post on Big Soccer that you made.

From the Aussie Rules partner in NA

> Any word yet on when the first game will be telecast?

We should know within a few more days but looks very much like mid-April for the full matches as well as the full up schedule on MHz. FSWC will follow suit as they are going to get it from the other two.

All the networks are workly closely with AFANA and have agreed to supply us with schedules.

Personally, one minor upside to the end of the coverage on Fox networks is no more battles with a company that considers forward schedules to be company confidential information.

-Rob de Santos
AFANA Chairman

Critch

03-28-2006, 04:40 PM

From the Aussie Rules partner in NA

> Any word yet on when the first game will be telecast?

We should know within a few more days but looks very much like mid-April for the full matches as well as the full up schedule on MHz. FSWC will follow suit as they are going to get it from the other two.

All the networks are workly closely with AFANA and have agreed to supply us with schedules.

Personally, one minor upside to the end of the coverage on Fox networks is no more battles with a company that considers forward schedules to be company confidential information.

-Rob de Santos
AFANA Chairman

Now I'm confused. Is that from the Setanta website, or does it mention Setanta in a bit you've snipped? Cos that mentions MHZ only (which is ok for me cos I'm one of the 1% who get it)

SirFozzie

03-28-2006, 05:10 PM

http://www.afana.com/af_tvinfo.shtml

Here's the relevant part:

Coverage of Aussie rules in 2006 for US fans will be on Setanta Sports STS (DirecTV ch. 615 and Globecast satellite service) and on MHz Worldview (Globecast only) and for Canadians on FOX Sports World Canada. This web page will have schedules below for those networks as soon as they are available

terpkristin

03-31-2006, 02:05 PM

linky linky (http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=11713920&src=rss/oddlyEnoughNews).

This is the oddest story I've read today. The refs can take bribes but the bribes can't influence their on-the-pitch decisions....oh yeah, I see that happening.

LAGOS (Reuters) - Football referees in Nigeria can take bribes from clubs but should not allow them to influence their decisions on the pitch, a football official said on Friday. Fanny Amun, acting Secretary-General of the Nigerian Football Association, said bribery was common in the Nigerian game.
"We know match officials are offered money or anything to influence matches and they can accept it," Amun told Reuters on Friday.
Amun first made the statement earlier in the week to a football seminar in the capital Abuja, prompting protests from other officials.
"Referees should only pretend to fall for the bait, but make sure the result doesn't favor those offering the bribe," Amun said.
At the seminar, Nigerian football league chairman Oyuiki Obaseki reprimanded referees for poor quality match reports, saying that bribery was to blame.
"The quality of your reports have not done our league any good, so please desist from corrupt practices," he told delegates.
Despite a high-profile campaign to stamp out graft in the impoverished African country, Nigeria consistently ranks among the most corrupt countries in the world -- and football is no exception.

/tk

Crapshoot

04-04-2006, 12:36 PM

From the Guardian - a good article:

Arsenal regain respect just as Chelsea are throwing it away

Richard Williams
Tuesday April 4, 2006
The Guardian

Sometimes you think it would be nice if sport were not fuelled by such extreme emotions, if it were somehow a bit more civilised. More Corinthian, even. And then comes a week such as this, when emotion is all there is.

Tomorrow night Arsenal will arrive at the Stadio delle Alpi knowing they carry the good wishes of a large part of football-loving England in their attempt to reach the semi-finals of the Champions League; in saloon bars and front rooms throughout the nation, diehard fans of other clubs will be hoping to see them complete the elimination of Juventus so brilliantly begun at Highbury last week. And four days later Chelsea, champions of England, will take the field at Stamford Bridge with virtually everyone except their own supporters praying for their failure.

Article continues
Seldom can there have been such unanimity among a broad mass of football fans on matters that lie outside their own allegiance. And the really strange thing about this phenomenon is that it represents a precise reversal of the two clubs' historic roles over the last half-century.

Until Arsène Wenger's arrival in north London, Arsenal had laboured under the burden of a nation's disdain for the humdrum style in which their victories were accumulated. From Bertie Mee to George Graham, the story was the same. Arsenal were respected, certainly. Admired, never.

Before the advent of Jose Mourinho, the image of Chelsea was similarly well defined. From Tommy Docherty to Claudio Ranieri, Stamford Bridge produced teams with a combination of artistry and inconsistency that won friends rather than titles. When Dave Sexton's glittering team confronted Leeds United in the Cup final of 1970, for example, there was no doubt about where the nation's sympathies lay.

Yet now Chelsea, thanks to the way one man's personality is perceived, have achieved the seemingly impossible and transformed themselves into a latter-day version of Don Revie's Leeds, detested and reviled not for their success but for the manner in which it has been achieved. Thanks to Wenger, meanwhile, Arsenal have become a symbol of all the virtues to which the game aspires: inspiration, optimism, self-expression, le fair-play.

These are generalisations, and disguise much contradictory evidence. Wenger's blindness to his players' disciplinary indiscretions is an old issue, but still relevant. The brilliance of Mourinho's coaching is beyond dispute. But now we see Arsenal, without an Englishman on the field, binding the country together in a joyful embrace while Chelsea, with three first-choice England internationals at their heart, respond to rumours of internal conflict by narrowing their eyes, closing their ears and adopting the siege mentality.

But if Arsenal go all the way to Paris and face Barcelona, every football lover's current darlings, in the final, how are we supposed to behave? And where will a neutral's sympathy lie if Chelsea and Manchester United meet at the Bridge on the last Saturday of this month with the title still in the balance? This week, at least, we all know where we stand.

kingfc22

04-04-2006, 01:43 PM

AC Milan vs. Lyon about to get started on ESPN2 in Champs League action.

kingfc22

04-04-2006, 03:31 PM

AC Milan vs. Lyon about to get started on ESPN2 in Champs League action.

What a game!

TazFTW

04-04-2006, 03:37 PM

Indeed.

They do need some sort of goal line cam though.

AlexB

04-05-2006, 04:18 PM

Question:

When Ashley Cole gets fit, he gets back in the side - Flamini has done exceptionally well, but he wasn't even a left-back at the start of the year, and Cole IMHO is one the best in his position in the world.

But does Wenger put Campbell into a back line that is looking almost impenetrable recently? They have just set a CL record for not conceding, and Senderos & especially Toure are looking class. Campbell has shown mental frailty this year, and frail form, but is considered the experienced defensive rock, which could be crucial in the semi final in the biggest club competition in Europe...

Discuss.

Desnudo

04-05-2006, 06:19 PM

Play him in a few games to build his value back up and then sell him during the summer.

cschex

04-05-2006, 08:34 PM

Play him in a few games to build his value back up and then sell him during the summer.

I doubt that he would get much return for him. OTOH, he was a free signing so anything would be a net positive. Unless Arsene goes center back shopping, however, I think Sol is around for at least one more season.

AlexB

04-07-2006, 03:42 PM

Oh yeah baby! Leicester play on national TV against promotion chasing Crystal Palace, and win 2-0 :p

First half was even, but we get the goal. Second half we probably only had 33% possession but conceded exactly zero clear chances - our defence was excellent, and we scored a nice counter attacking goal with about 5 to go.

Marker down for next season - the Foxes are back :cool:

Marc Vaughan

04-10-2006, 11:54 AM

Bah Brighton lost on saturday to virtually condemn us to relegation (its still mathematically possible to avoid it but even die hard optimists like me are starting to waver somewhat now) .... :(

Still that means an exciting promotion season next year ;)

(hopefully :D)

SirFozzie

04-10-2006, 12:00 PM

ice4277

04-10-2006, 12:01 PM

Has anybody used the Setanta Broadband service? I was thinking about signing up for the month, its $12 and will give the Champions League semi-final that ESPN is not carrying, and lots of Championship football leading up to the playoffs.

SirFozzie

04-10-2006, 12:50 PM

I use their fulltime channel, good stuff.

Katon

04-12-2006, 06:07 PM

The PFA nominees have been announced.

PFA PLAYER OF THE YEAR
Joe Cole (Chelsea)
Steven Gerrard (Liverpool)
Frank Lampard (Chelsea)
Thierry Henry (Arsenal)
Wayne Rooney (Man United)
John Terry (Chelsea)

So that's three different Chelsea players and they still managed to miss out one of the two serious contenders for our Player of the Year title (William Gallas, in case you're wondering). Should've had Gallas instead of Lampard, who's been pretty average since the turn of the year. My vote: Cole first, Rooney second, Terry third, though I'd take Gallas over the lot of them.

PFA YOUNG PLAYER OF THE YEAR
Darren Bent (Charlton)
Cesc Fabregas (Arsenal)
Anton Ferdinand (West Ham)
Aaron Lennon (Tottenham)
Cristiano Ronaldo (Man United)
Wayne Rooney (Man United)

This looks pretty good. Rooney to win by thoroughly outclassing the rest (as opposed to last year, when he won by being the second-best candidate when everyone forgot Petr Cech was eligible). After him there's a lot of people who've been good for half the season but average for the other half; Bent and Ferdinand edge it for me.

AlexB

04-13-2006, 04:42 AM

...Should've had Gallas instead of Lampard, who's been pretty average since the turn of the year. ...

The votes are taken early in the new year, which explains some of the shortlisted players.

Henry is at a big price for this reason - he was injured when the vote was taken, and people tend to have a 'who's playing best now mentaility'. This goes a long way to explain why Lampard is in there and Gallas isn't - Gallas especially has caught they in 2006 more so than 2005, and as such timing was not on his side.

Katon

04-13-2006, 01:20 PM

I completely agree that Lampard's benefiting from the early vote, but I don't thing it's exactly that Gallas has been better since the turn of the year. His real problem is that he's too damn versatile - he's spent a third of the year being one of the top right-backs in the league, a third of the year being one of the top left-backs in the league, and the rest of the time being one of the world's best centre-backs. All the hopping around makes it difficult to realize just how good he's been. Plus fullbacks never get nominated for this type of award.

Crapshoot

04-13-2006, 01:24 PM

Cole ? Cole ? over Henry/Gerrard/Rooney ? That's impressive... :D

Katon

04-13-2006, 02:01 PM

Cole's been the only one of our wingers to stay in form for the full season. He's been scoring and creating regularly, and is one of the major reasons we're top. December in particular, when we were building up our lead, he was absolutely incredible.

Henry's been great - he always is - but Arsenal's away form counts against him, partly because he's captain and gets some of the blame for their tame performances and partly because their major problem on the road has been goalscoring.

Rooney's been spectacular in most of United's big games (except for the CL :) ) but against the lesser teams they've been winning more by good team play and lethal finishing from Van Nistelrooij/Saha. He's had a very good year, though, hence my second-place vote.

Gerrard's a matchwinner on his day, but I think people tend to overrate his consistency a bit. Plus, for every big game he wins with a spectacular performance, there's also one he loses with an equally spectacular cock-up (see: France at Euro 04, last year's League Cup final, this year v Arsenal).

Desnudo

04-14-2006, 10:53 PM

Sunderland - They go down if they tie, so what's with the standing on the ball at the end? I haven't seen them at all this season, but if that's the passion they play with, then it's no wonder they are going down. I've been on some bad teams before and know that after you lose a bunch of games it's very hard to motivate and your confidence is shot, but they could have won that game. Who passes back on a 4-on-3 with a minute left? Just sad. I'm not a MU fan by any stretch, but it would have been nice to have that game against Chelsea be interesting.

JonInMiddleGA

04-23-2006, 01:42 PM

Pretty entertaining day on FSC, at least to this otherwise infrequent viewer.

Watched West Ham-Middlesbrough live this morning and now watching Arsenal-Spurs (although I already know how this ends, it was interesting to see the controversy and the sideline blow up).

Add these two games to my watching Arsenal-Villarreal earlier in the week and I've probably totalled more viewing time in the past week than I have all season. Just seems more interesting, more intense, or something. For whatever reason, it's more compelling.

For those who are regulars, is the intensity really this much higher at this point in the various competitions (as I'm perceiving it) or is it just me?
(I'm thinking I just happened to surf across and stop on some really good games at the right time)

Marc Vaughan

04-23-2006, 02:12 PM

For those who are regulars, is the intensity really this much higher at this point in the various competitions (as I'm perceiving it) or is it just me?

Soccer is always fairly 'intense' - but towards the end of a season/competition it always increases substantially.

With the Arsenal/Spurs situation especially its a huge deal as the two teams are local rivals and Spurs haven't finished above Arsenal for quite a while ... its a very tense situation especially because in theory 4th would give one of the teams a Champions League spot (and potentially £20-30m more revenue next season) ... however Arsenal fans are still very aware that Spurs could finish 4th and miss out anyway if Arsenal win the CL this season (which is still very possible) ...

Its creating a very tense and intruiging finish.

PS> Unfortunately for me, my team Brighton are already relegated from the Championship :(
(which continues our normal habit of refusing to remain in a division for long, last season was the first time in 6 years that we hadn't been relegated or promoted during a season)

MJ4H

04-23-2006, 02:22 PM

Thanks to this guy above me here (Marc Vaughan, in case someone sneaks a post in here before I finish), I'm starting to get interested in some of the English Football League stuff.

For various reasons, I've not quite arbitrarily picked Huddersfield as the team I'm going to follow and root for (they are also the team I play with in FM). I wonder if you guys know of anyway I could catch their upcoming playoff games in League One? An online viewing option of some sort? I'm new to this scene, so I need any kind of guidance you can give.

Also, can someone explain exactly how the promotion playoffs work? From what I understand, the top 2 teams are automatically promoted (currently Southend who I believe is a lock, and Colchester, somewhat vulnerable). Now, spots 3-6 then play a playoff for the final promotion spot, right? Is that a single elimination playoff (3 vs 6, 4 vs 5, winners play) or is it something more complicated (I imagine something like 6 vs 5, winner vs 4, winner vs 3, winner promoted as not being out of the question). So what is the scoop here? (and be nice to the newb)

ISiddiqui

04-23-2006, 02:44 PM

Btw, sad to see how Shearer's career ended :(. At least he was a goalscorer in the game he got his injury in. The man will be missed.

Katon

04-23-2006, 02:47 PM

Cards4ever

04-23-2006, 03:30 PM

West Ham wins in the Semi's this morning and that gets them a Euro Cup place for next season because Liverpool has already qualified! :)

ISiddiqui

04-23-2006, 03:32 PM

Wow! Great job by West Ham, in the first season back in the Premiership! :D

Desnudo

04-23-2006, 05:29 PM

Now that West Ham is into Europe, what would happen if Arsenal and Middlesbrough both win in Europe? What would happen to Tottenham?

SirFozzie

04-23-2006, 05:35 PM

if Arsenal wins, Tottenham would get the first guaranteed UEFA Cup spot (first spot via standings). West Ham would get the guaranteed UEFA Cup spot (Cup).

any other UEFA Cup spopts would go by Standings.

Middlesborough would get an extra UEFA Cup spot for being the defending champion, even if they didn't qualify normally.. the Champions League Thing is only because no league can have 5 Champions League spots ever again, and England has 4 CL spots already

TazFTW

04-24-2006, 02:00 AM

So should Davids have kicked the ball out? Or was the commentator correct in saying if two players from the same team collide, play on.

Marc Vaughan

04-24-2006, 02:35 AM

the Champions League Thing is only because no league can have 5 Champions League spots ever again, and England has 4 CL spots already
Although just to add to the usual drama rumour has it that Spurs are already complaining to EUFA about the possibility of them missing out on a spot if Arsenal win the CL ... doubt they'll manage to get things changed, but it did work for Liverpool/Everton last season after all ... ;)

Desnudo

04-24-2006, 02:39 AM

So should Davids have kicked the ball out? Or was the commentator correct in saying if two players from the same team collide, play on.

The sporting play, as mentioned by the same commentator, would have been to kick it out. You can't know how hurt the guy is on the field, regardless of who was involved in the collision. I also didn't like what he said about how important the game was. Either you're sporting or you aren't. That said, the ref could have stopped the game and chose not to.

Marc Vaughan

04-24-2006, 02:48 AM

So should Davids have kicked the ball out? Or was the commentator correct in saying if two players from the same team collide, play on.

In the 'old' days people generally did kick the ball out - they often do today, but sometimes don't partially sometimes because they might believe the player in question is 'play acting' and attempting to waste time .. especially if it occurs when the team without the injured player has been applying a lot of pressure or retaining a lot of posession.

This is simply because a break in play for treatment/removing player from the pitch can often allow the other team to reorganise and regroup ..

ice4277

04-24-2006, 05:38 AM

Not to mention, it was two guys from the same team running into each other. Also, Spurs had already started the buildup to the goal. I think continuation of the play was warranted in that situation.

AlexB

04-24-2006, 05:46 AM

IMHO the norm would have been for the ball to be kicked out for the player to receive attention.

But the interesting thing is the criticism from Wenger - is he being hypocritical following his Arsenal side doing exactly the same against Sheffield Utd in the Cup a few years ago, or is he ebing consistent because he offered (and the FA agreed) to replay this tie because of this incident?

daedalus

04-24-2006, 03:29 PM

My two cents, although I have not seen the match or the incident, so, y'know, for what it's worth . . .

Given that it was 2 Arses that ran into each other, I don't think the Spuds could be blamed very much for continuing play. Especially given that Gilberto managed to get up fairly quickly (Manu was apparently the only one who took a knock in that collision).

Based on descriptions, the blame lies COMPLETELY with the Arses' defense (those who remained standing), in my opinion. Apparently they stopped playing, expecting the ball to be kicked out. If the whistle hasn't blown and the ball hasn't gone out of play, you keep playing. End of story.

If there was anything that I would find objectionable (and, in my opinion, probably what Le Professor may have found irritating), it would be Jol's stance that he did not see the play*. Arseblogger and a number of others (Arse fan, obviously) maintain that they can clearly see Jol screaming at Carrick to play on as he was trying to figure out if the fallen Arses were injured for real or not. I believe Arseblogger has a link to a video of this on his blog.

*Yes, given Wenger's tendency to "miss" poorly made plays by his players, I recognize and understand the possible irony here. On the other hand, I feel there is a difference. When Wenger claims that he misses bad plays /tackles by his players (which, as far as I can tell, has not happen in awhile), he is not generally up and screaming instructions to do so to said specific player. It is (very) possible that I am merely biased but I do feel that there is a difference.

daedalus

04-24-2006, 03:36 PM

MikeVick7

04-24-2006, 03:43 PM

Has the player's "acting" when injured always been in the game? Or is this something that has gotten worse over the years? If there's one turn-off to soccer, it's this.

Katon

04-24-2006, 03:51 PM

According to comments I've read on BigSoccer (in the Arsenal forum), the Arse have done something similar to Sunderland twice. On one of the occasions, Le Professor offered to replay the game. If this was truly the case (it'd be before my time following footie), then there is ZERO ground for complaints from the Arse.

Sheffield United, not Sunderland. It was an FA Cup game a few years back; Marc Overmars kept going when a United player went down and crossed for Kanu to score the winner. Arsenal won the replay, too.

I haven't seen the play, but I've seen some people say that Eboue seemed to be doing fine until he looked up and saw where the ball was. If that's true, I have no sympathy whatsoever for him - try to exploit a gentleman's agreement, you deserve to concede a goal. On the other hand, if he was genuinely hurt then Spurs probably should've put the ball out.

Critch

04-24-2006, 04:09 PM

1. Arsenal can start complaining about bad sportsmanship when Robert Pires and the rest stop hitting the deck at the slightest contact.

2. Arsene Wenger can start complaining about bad sportsmanship when he stops acting like a spoiled brat when things don't go his way. Shake hands with opposing managers at the end of the game.

3. Bye bye Thierry, enjoy Spain.

4. Arsenal suck. :)

Mac Howard

04-24-2006, 06:34 PM

Wenger's argument is that Carrick stopped and hesitated as if to decide whether to put the ball in touch or not. Thus the Arsenal defence switched off expecting him to do so. Then Carrick made his pass and caught the defence off guard.

But I've watched the incident several times now and Carrick's hesitation had nothing to do with the injured players. Following the collision he collects the ball and turns to make a pass. But there's no immediate pass on. He looks forward, looks across the pitch, adjusts the ball as he considers his different options and finally sees a pass and makes it. At no point does he even look in the direction of the injured players. His hesitation is purely about finding a free colleague.

Wenger's view of Carrick is only from the back. He cannot see what Carrick is looking at. He merely assumes that the hesitation is caused by the injured players. It isn't. The collision of the players was never sufficently severe to cause him to consider putting the ball out.

Wenger (and Mourinho is turning out to be the same) has always had a degree of paranoia about him. His behaviour here was unacceptable but merely a more extreme case of previous behaviour from him. Jol did not only "not see" Carrick deceive the Arsenal defence, there was simply no deception to see. The accusation that Jol was lieing was a disgrace.

SirFozzie

04-24-2006, 06:48 PM

The sporting play, as mentioned by the same commentator, would have been to kick it out. You can't know how hurt the guy is on the field, regardless of who was involved in the collision. I also didn't like what he said about how important the game was. Either you're sporting or you aren't. That said, the ref could have stopped the game and chose not to.

The ref went so far as to wave play to continue

daedalus

04-25-2006, 04:43 AM

Paddy, for all his size, dove and went to ground more easily than SuperBob. At least Pires has the excuse of having torn a knee. Which isn't to say I don't think Pires and Reyes goes to the ground far more easily and often than (I think) they should, for I do. But at least their claims are more legitimate (to me) than Paddy's was. Yes, I thought the same thing while he was an Arse.

It would suck if Titi leaves for Barça but they would be fun to watch. I love the formation that Rijkaard has them playing now and I'd wonder how they'll fit Titi into that. I would imagine one of the defensive midfielders would have to go, which could hurt their defense. The only negative I can see in that combination with be Titi's penchant to drift to the same (left side) channel as Ronaldinho. But, Hell, there are MUCH worse problems to have.

But, for all he has done for Arsenal, I would say thank you, have fun in the sun and good luck with his anti-racism quest. Unlike Paddy, he was always committed to the club and never had those ugly yearly flings. He was a Gooner through and through (unlike someone whose name rhymes with Ashley and Cole) and has scored some ridiculous video game-type goals (I need to find the century of goals of him and Dennis). Go, Titi!

daedalus

04-25-2006, 04:53 AM

Hey, Matthijs.

How do you think the injuries to Van der Vaart, De Jong and Maduro affects the Oranje? As talented as the Hamburg duo are (insert expletives here for the fact that De Jong ended up Hamburg instead of Arsenal and at such a price), Maduro seems to play a bigger part in Van Basten's plan. Will his absence be the bigger loss? Admittedly, of the three, he's the only one who is not going under the knife so he would seem to have a better chance to come back than the other two.

MIJB#19

04-25-2006, 05:10 AM

Hey, Matthijs.

How do you think the injuries to Van der Vaart, De Jong and Maduro affects the Oranje? As talented as the Hamburg duo are (insert expletives here for the fact that he went to Hamburg instead of coming to Arsenal at such a price), Maduro seems to play a bigger part in Van Basten's plan. Will his absence be the bigger loss? Admittedly, of the three, he's the only one who is not going under the knife so he would seem to have a better chance to come back than the other two.In a way, it's a lucky thing they're all midfielders. That's the only place on the team where we have serious depth. We can still field a midfield with Mark van Bommel or Denny Landzaat, Phillip Cocu and Edgar Davids. In the end, I think the four youngsters (incl. also injured Wesley Sneijder) will be fighting for one starting role at best anyway, although there's nothing wrong with a De Jong-Maduro-Van der Vaart line. Other options could be Giovanni van Bronckhorst as left midfielder, George Boateng (yeah right!), . Sure, they got playing time from Van Basten in the past year or two, but in his philosophy that's no guarantee to be playing in the World Cup. Even Ruud van Nistelrooij seems to be on the bubble these days. The only sure thing seems to be goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar.

TazFTW

04-25-2006, 02:52 PM

I always though that there was a rule not to show fans running onto the field. Arsenal/Villarreal, hey look its a fan running onto the field and he hands Henry a Barcelona jersey with Henry on it.

kingfc22

04-25-2006, 03:33 PM

PK given to Villarreal in the 89th minute:eek:

TazFTW

04-25-2006, 03:33 PM

Oh my.

[edit]More shots of the chick in the red, k ,thx.

cthomer5000

04-25-2006, 03:35 PM

I'm losing my mind watching gamecast + getting MIJB's additional commentary...

I'm pullling for Tottenham to make the Champions league, and obviously Arsenal advancing hurts those chances a great deal.

kingfc22

04-25-2006, 03:36 PM

Lehmann makes the save.

ice4277

04-25-2006, 08:17 PM

Crazy finish to an otherwise meh game. Arsenal did what they needed to do, but it was not a very authoritative performance. Also, the referee in the match was awful. There were probably 4 or 5 other fouls that he could have awarded penalties on in that match, and he let a ton of blatant stuff go.

Mac Howard

04-25-2006, 10:01 PM

I don't like to watch a team try to hold on to a one nil lead like that, particularly a team like Arsenal that can play such sweet football. A disappointing game epitomised by that finish: a soft penalty, a poor shot and a save from the 'keeper that confirmed his team's defensive effectiveness. :rolleyes:

I trust Barca and Milan will be more entertaining for the neutral fan tonight.

Katon

04-25-2006, 10:14 PM

It's all the more disappointing since they weren't even all that good at it - if Villareal could afford better strikers than Franco & Forlan, the clean sheet would've gone out the window. Compare that to the first leg, where they could've won by more than one, and it seems like Wenger should've been a bit less timid (another Wenger-Mourinho parallel?).

daedalus

04-26-2006, 01:50 AM

It was a disappointing game to watch as I think both side attacking would have been very entertaining football. I think Wenger's decision to pull everyone back to help the defense was hugely influenced by Senderos' (and, eventually, Flamini's) absence(s). Their insistance on simply booting the ball out to midfield was getting ridiculous after awhile. I think the fact that Titi had no support to attack and hardly got to touch the ball made Javi Venta significantly more effective (since he wasn't spending the whole day trying to clear the ball) and he nearly killed us. Villarreal really deserved the extra time with the way they played.

I thought it was funny that Derek Rae mentioned Jose Mari having a reputation for "free-kick and penalty hunting" (nice euphamism) and he showed it. Also, I would have felt much more sympathetic to their cause if Villarreal players were not spending the whole game writhing on the ground every few minutes while thugging Arsenal players the whole game.

daedalus

04-26-2006, 01:57 AM

I haven't seen the play, but I've seen some people say that Eboue seemed to be doing fine until he looked up and saw where the ball was. If that's true, I have no sympathy whatsoever for him - try to exploit a gentleman's agreement, you deserve to concede a goal. On the other hand, if he was genuinely hurt then Spurs probably should've put the ball out.Please excuse a momentary bit of racism and stereotyping, I can't see Manu doing that. I have not tended to see such play acting and lame tactics like that from African footballers that have played European football. Also, he's been carrying a groin injury from a few weeks ago (got hurt at the same time as Cesc, perhaps he's good now).

tanglewood

04-26-2006, 03:16 AM

Please excuse a momentary bit of racism and stereotyping, I can't see Manu doing that. I have not tended to see such play acting and lame tactics like that from African footballers that have played European football. Also, he's been carrying a groin injury from a few weeks ago (got hurt at the same time as Cesc, perhaps he's good now).

Drogba?

daedalus

04-26-2006, 03:41 AM

Drogba?Okay, you've got me on that one.

But, I mean, he plays for Chelsea, y'know? :)

ice4277

04-26-2006, 04:47 AM

I trust Barca and Milan will be more entertaining for the neutral fan tonight.

I think you're right, but here in the States, ESPN decided to show the Arse-Villareal semis, letting Setanta (a station that probably %.01 of the population has) pick up Barca-Milan. :mad:

Blade6119

04-26-2006, 05:40 AM

Though as ESPN you can assume arse has a higher fan base here then the others

MIJB#19

04-26-2006, 06:10 AM

Blade6119

04-26-2006, 06:16 AM

Are you kidding me? How can Arsenal-Villareal be more appealing? I honestly can't even see how those two teams together could have a bigger fanbase than Barcelona or AC Milan, other than a bias towards the English league. Granted, Arsenal has been a consistent top team in England for the past 10 years, but they're still far from being in the same realm as Barca and Milan for European standards.
Simply commercial appeal. Man UTD is quite well known, even to non-soccer fans...is barca or AC milan a worse team team then MAN UTD? no, but man and arse share our language and are televised on tv here FAR more often. EPL games play sometimes, were series A or spanish league never show. In my mind arse would have a far larger fan base here, but i might be mistaken

ice4277

04-26-2006, 06:38 AM

Simply commercial appeal. Man UTD is quite well known, even to non-soccer fans...is barca or AC milan a worse team team then MAN UTD? no, but man and arse share our language and are televised on tv here FAR more often. EPL games play sometimes, were series A or spanish league never show. In my mind arse would have a far larger fan base here, but i might be mistaken

Well, I would think it would be pretty close between Arsenal, Barca, and Milan in terms of fan base. But when you figure that Barca and Milan would be playing each other, and Villareal has about zero appeal here, I would have figured it would be a no-brainer.

Also, ESPN has not hesitated in the past to show games featuring teams from two non-English speaking countries, especially Spain and Italy.

Critch

04-26-2006, 07:51 AM

I think you're right, but here in the States, ESPN decided to show the Arse-Villareal semis, letting Setanta (a station that probably %.01 of the population has) pick up Barca-Milan. :mad:

It's not a case of ESPN having the pick of the two games and choosing to show Arsenal v Villarreal. ESPN does have both games, they've just decided to show the Barcelona v Milan game on ESPN Desportes. They've been trying to push that channel by shifting some exclusive stuff that appeals to the Hispanic market over to it.

Not that I care, I'm one of the .01% that has Setanta :)

ice4277

04-26-2006, 09:56 AM

It's not a case of ESPN having the pick of the two games and choosing to show Arsenal v Villarreal. ESPN does have both games, they've just decided to show the Barcelona v Milan game on ESPN Desportes. They've been trying to push that channel by shifting some exclusive stuff that appeals to the Hispanic market over to it.

Well, if that's true, it sucks for those of us in the Detroit area. I'm pretty sure it will be a while (if ever) before Deportes is offered. Hell, there isn't even a sports bar in this area that caters to soccer fans anymore :(

SirFozzie

04-26-2006, 10:34 AM

They have english language rights to one semifinal and the final

ISiddiqui

04-26-2006, 01:55 PM

Are you kidding me? How can Arsenal-Villareal be more appealing? I honestly can't even see how those two teams together could have a bigger fanbase than Barcelona or AC Milan, other than a bias towards the English league. Granted, Arsenal has been a consistent top team in England for the past 10 years, but they're still far from being in the same realm as Barca and Milan for European standards.

Arsenal is an English team, 'nuff said.

I mean really, I bet far more American soccer fans know who is on Arsenal currently than can tell who is one Barca (aside from Ronaldinho) and Milan (and I think far more Americans know Henry over Shevchenko).

For most European soccer fans here in the States, the EPL is the main league.

For example, look on BigSoccer, and see where the Americans are posting? If not the US forums (National Team and MLS), they are all over the England forums.

JonInMiddleGA

04-26-2006, 02:23 PM

I mean really, I bet far more American soccer fans know who is on Arsenal currently than can tell who is one Barca (aside from Ronaldinho) and Milan (and I think far more Americans know Henry over Shevchenko).

Good examples, IMO.

Take me as a case in point (an extremely casual soccer follower, but the kind that the networks need to pull to boost their ratings). I recognize the names of both Ronaldinho and Shevchenko but couldn't have guessed their teams in five tries. Henry, on the other hand, I knew.

Now, some of that probably connects the amount of coverage the EPL gets over other leagues (making it a self-fulfilling prophecy) but a lot of it goes beyond that. Bottom-line: I'll watch the EPL at length at times, and will watch English league teams in other competitions lately but I can count on one hand the number of matches I've watched more than five minutes of that didn't involve a U.S or English team (outside of the WC).

Critch

04-26-2006, 07:16 PM

tanglewood

04-26-2006, 07:22 PM

BBC is reporting that the English FA have offered the England job to Brazilian Luiz Felipe Scolari, the current manager of Portugal. "Big Phil" (as the English press will almost certainly call him) will take over after the World Cup.

I was hoping Steve McLaren would get the job. I wouldn't have to worry about England winning anything with Steve McLaren in the job.

Great news, he is by far the best qualified candidate. I don't care where the manger is from, he could be Martian for all I care as long as we win a World Cup or Euro Championship. Look at how many people are getting behind Arsenal as they are an 'English' team. The actual nationality of the people involved is irrelevant, only what they stand for and the collective conciousness they produce/represent.

Mac Howard

04-27-2006, 01:36 AM

I was hoping Steve McLaren would get the job. I wouldn't have to worry about England winning anything with Steve McLaren in the job.

:D :D

.

Critch

04-27-2006, 10:22 AM

I don't care where the manger is from, he could be Martian for all I care as long as we win a World Cup or Euro Championship.

Martian O'Neill?

AlexB

04-27-2006, 03:38 PM

Middlesbrough are winning me over - they are playing Steaua Bucharest in the UEFA semi.

They advanced through the QF by scoring 4 goals at home in the last hour of the second leg to come back from 3-0 down on aggregate - the winner came with pretty much the last kick!

They have found themselves in the same situation in the semi: needed 4 goals in the last hour of the 2nd leg to get to the final - they have 15 minutes to get the 4th - back to 3-3! As

AlexB

04-27-2006, 03:38 PM

AlexB

04-27-2006, 03:51 PM

OMFG :eek: !!!!! Same player as last time - 89 minutes on the clock! Unbe-fucking-lievable !!!!

AlexB

04-27-2006, 03:57 PM

And they're through! I have never seen a club have to score 4 goals in an hour in two successive ties to get to a final. Just wow.

Sidenote: this should disqualify once and for all Steve McLaren from getting the England job: getting into this situation twice in a row is not top class management. Neither is playing 2-4-4 for an hour and getting lucky twice. But it's fantastic to watch ;)

marshall881

04-27-2006, 04:01 PM

The 'Boro fans have to be mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausted. Congrats to them and the team!

SirFozzie

04-27-2006, 05:48 PM

Not just that, but making it to the FA Cup semis.. they MUST be knackered

Mac Howard

04-27-2006, 07:13 PM

The 'Boro fans have to be mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausted. Congrats to them and the team!

They also put four past Man Utd and three past Chelsea :eek:

Desnudo

04-27-2006, 08:10 PM

Not just that, but making it to the FA Cup semis.. they MUST be knackered

Don't forget holding up 13 other teams in the premiership. Exhausting.

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 03:38 AM

Sidenote: this should disqualify once and for all Steve McLaren from getting the England job: getting into this situation twice in a row is not top class management. Neither is playing 2-4-4 for an hour and getting lucky twice. But it's fantastic to watch ;)

I kind of agree - but then again, I have to admit its fantastic motivational management from him to get them to come back from that situation not once but twice ...

(personally I'd prefer Allardyce to get the job - I've been very impressed with his ability to work with large name signings at a mid-sized club and inspire their respect and also to knit a team from disparate individual each season regardless of how many personnel changes happen. However I'm realistic that he won't get the job because of his lack of European/International experience. My moneys on Scolari getting the job and an English coach getting the job next time around (probably Allardyce after he's taken the Newcastle job and done well at that ..)).

daedalus

04-28-2006, 06:26 AM

Nice. That almost deserves a "PING: Chief Rum" thread. :D

Crapshoot

04-28-2006, 08:56 AM

I kind of agree - but then again, I have to admit its fantastic motivational management from him to get them to come back from that situation not once but twice ...

(personally I'd prefer Allardyce to get the job - I've been very impressed with his ability to work with large name signings at a mid-sized club and inspire their respect and also to knit a team from disparate individual each season regardless of how many personnel changes happen. However I'm realistic that he won't get the job because of his lack of European/International experience. My moneys on Scolari getting the job and an English coach getting the job next time around (probably Allardyce after he's taken the Newcastle job and done well at that ..)).

Allardyce ? You want to watch 6 years of England playing a 4-5-1 with long balls kicked up to Kevin Davies ? :D

Besides, didn't the Graham Taylor experiment teach one anything ?

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 09:07 AM

Allardyce ? You want to watch 6 years of England playing a 4-5-1 with long balls kicked up to Kevin Davies ?

Besides, didn't the Graham Taylor experiment teach one anything ?

Allardyce is far from a simple long ball merchant imho, his teams are more direct than some others - but they aren't 'Wimbledon' by any stretch of the imagination.

Why do I like him as a potential England manager - a few reasons really:

* He's English and so understands the english football and our media and fans in a way which a manager who hasn't coached over here might not.
* He's proved that he can gel a team of disparate individuals together time and time again during his career at Bolton (where he's traditionally picked up biggish name foreign freebies and made shuffled them into a team competing in the Premiership).
* He's proven tactically sound by his sensible management of a relatively small squad and their consistent results.
* His signings show a good eye for talent and potential, something which is obviously important with an International manager.
* He is unswayed by other peoples opinions of what he should do in his job. This is imho vital for any England manager as I often feel at times that our team is picked by the tabloid papers rather than any sort of common sense.

(although to be honest I'd quite happily watch paint dry for six years if at the end of it England had picked up a major International trophy ;) )

Crapshoot

04-28-2006, 12:12 PM

Allardyce is far from a simple long ball merchant imho, his teams are more direct than some others - but they aren't 'Wimbledon' by any stretch of the imagination.

Why do I like him as a potential England manager - a few reasons really:

* He's English and so understands the english football and our media and fans in a way which a manager who hasn't coached over here might not.
* He's proved that he can gel a team of disparate individuals together time and time again during his career at Bolton (where he's traditionally picked up biggish name foreign freebies and made shuffled them into a team competing in the Premiership).
* He's proven tactically sound by his sensible management of a relatively small squad and their consistent results.
* His signings show a good eye for talent and potential, something which is obviously important with an International manager.
* He is unswayed by other peoples opinions of what he should do in his job. This is imho vital for any England manager as I often feel at times that our team is picked by the tabloid papers rather than any sort of common sense.

(although to be honest I'd quite happily watch paint dry for six years if at the end of it England had picked up a major International trophy ;) )

Eh - I really really dislike him, and I find the Xenophobic crap from the likes of him, Steve "I paid 7000 pounds for a coaching license" Bruce, Charlton and co pretty annoying. England needs the best manager for the job - and Allardyce hasn't done a damn thing in his career. And his style of play is meant primarily to stymie teams with greater skill - as opposed to playing good football.

Your points:

- I don't think this matters. the English cricket coaches are from Zimbabwe and Australia - that didn't stop them from winning the Ashes. Besides, Phil has experience at a level Sam never will.

- Right - but that's not what he'll get to do in England. He can't sign specific players in question.

- I don't think Bolton's squad is small per se, and they probably spend more on wages than the average Premiership team. As for tactically - eh, he's not awful, but I have visions of Sam not knowing how to meld top level talent - the non Kevin-Davies category (who's a decent player, but Sam has one, maybe 2 players who are top notch).

- See 2 - With the likes of England, spotting talent isn't exactly a big deal. For all the disagreement, if we polled 10 people here on the England starting 11 - I bet we'd all agree on 8-9 players.

- Yeah, but so is Big Phil - and the latter can command the respect of his players in a way I don't think Sam will. I'm with you on the tabloids to some extent, but isn't it a cultural thing ?

Hey, I'm rooting for England - they are my "adopted" national team. Nonetheless, I don't see Sam as the type who can take them above and beyond.

AlexB

04-28-2006, 12:30 PM

Not a Big Sam fan myself from his Bolton team's style, but is this because the best chance of Bolton being successful, given they will not get the top calibre players, rather than being his preferred tactics?

The most impressive thing about Allardyce is his scientific approach to fitness, diet, tactical analysis - he is an innovator in the EPL (not just amongst English managers, but across the board) in many areas.

However, his typically forthright attitude, and frequent thumbing of authority will count against him - the FA didn;t think too much of Ol' Big Head did they :)

AlexB

04-28-2006, 12:33 PM

Dola - just putting the case for Sam: I personally think Big Phil is the best man for the job of those who appear to be in the frame.

Personally I would have Martin O'Neill as #1 choice, Big Phil #2, and Sam #3 and the leading Englishman.

But then I am a Leicester fan, and Martin O'Neill and I haven't a bad word to say about him

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 12:48 PM

Eh - I really really dislike him, and I find the Xenophobic crap from the likes of him, Steve "I paid 7000 pounds for a coaching license" Bruce, Charlton and co pretty annoying. England needs the best manager for the job - and Allardyce hasn't done a damn thing in his career. And his style of play is meant primarily to stymie teams with greater skill - as opposed to playing good football.
Much as England would prefer not to admit it to win a major tournament we'll need to stifle at least one team with greater skill (Argentina, Brazil etc.) .... hence I think a manager who isn't used to having teams who have an abundance of flair would make sense.

- Right - but that's not what he'll get to do in England. He can't sign specific players in question.
Its a large part of being an international manager imho - you take a load of players who play different styles week in week out and attempt to gel them into a side who play well together. No they aren't being 'signed' in quite the same manner but the theory is the same imho.

- I don't think Bolton's squad is small per se, and they probably spend more on wages than the average Premiership team. As for tactically - eh, he's not awful, but I have visions of Sam not knowing how to meld top level talent - the non Kevin-Davies category (who's a decent player, but Sam has one, maybe 2 players who are top notch).
Again what you see as a disadvantage I see as an advantage, England only have a handful of truly 'world class' players so in my mind (regardless of what the English press might have you believe) they are the Bolton of the International level - they're competant and will be towards the top end of the spectrum ... however few people really expect them to win anything.

- See 2 - With the likes of England, spotting talent isn't exactly a big deal. For all the disagreement, if we polled 10 people here on the England starting 11 - I bet we'd all agree on 8-9 players.
Want to try that theory ..? ... also bear in mind it isn't just about selecting the 11 players who start, but about who goes onto the bench and which players fill out the squad for a specific tournament etc.

- Yeah, but so is Big Phil - and the latter can command the respect of his players in a way I don't think Sam will. I'm with you on the tabloids to some extent, but isn't it a cultural thing ?
With regards to commanding respect - I think Allardyce would be fine simply because of his attitude and personality.

With the tabloids it is a cultural thing, but is something which needs to be taken into account, obviously whoever is in charge will have advisors and so the impact can be minimised but that again can be said of most areas really.

Hey, I'm rooting for England - they are my "adopted" national team. Nonetheless, I don't see Sam as the type who can take them above and beyond.
Thats fair enough by all means, I haven't taken offence at all - to be honest thats part of the 'fun' of football and why FM does so well ... everyone 'knows' what their team/country should be doing and if only the board/FA would listen to them all would be well in the world ;)

Crapshoot

04-28-2006, 01:13 PM

Again what you see as a disadvantage I see as an advantage, England only have a handful of truly 'world class' players so in my mind (regardless of what the English press might have you believe) they are the Bolton of the International level - they're competant and will be towards the top end of the spectrum ... however few people really expect them to win anything.

Interesting - I think England's talent is admittedly overrated by the locals (I see all the mails suggesting they should be 2nd only behind Brazil amongst the favorites), but calling them Bolton does them disservice, IMO. You have 2 of the top 10 players in the world (Rooney, Gerrard), Top quality Center backs, a guy (when healthy) who's probably the world's best Left Back in Ashley Cole, and some top notch talent (Lampard, Beckham, Owen) to go along with that.

Want to try that theory ..? ... also bear in mind it isn't just about selecting the 11 players who start, but about who goes onto the bench and which players fill out the squad for a specific tournament etc.

I am curious now - in my mind, assuming a 4-4-2
you go (R to L)

Neville Terry Ferdinand/King Cole
Beckham Gerrard Carrick/Parker JoeCole
Owen Rooney

I should have expanded my general thought - how much difference do you think there will be between a 22 man squad than any 10 people will pick ? Everyone has their favorites (ie Parker, Carrick, the unnatural hatred for Jenas), but I'd be surprised if there's too much variety.

Thats fair enough by all means, I haven't taken offence at all - to be honest thats part of the 'fun' of football and why FM does so well ... everyone 'knows' what their team/country should be doing and if only the board/FA would listen to them all would be well in the world ;)

Ain't that the truth. :D

AlexB

04-28-2006, 01:38 PM

And Big Phil is out of the running...

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 01:55 PM

Interesting - I think England's talent is admittedly overrated by the locals (I see all the mails suggesting they should be 2nd only behind Brazil amongst the favorites), but calling them Bolton does them disservice, IMO. You have 2 of the top 10 players in the world (Rooney, Gerrard), Top quality Center backs, a guy (when healthy) who's probably the world's best Left Back in Ashley Cole, and some top notch talent (Lampard, Beckham, Owen) to go along with that.

I don't see comparing England to Bolton in the Premiership an insult, Bolton are a solid team who can on their day beat any other team in the division - however they've not really got the depth to handle injuries and win trophies consistently.

I agree that Gerrard is definitely one of the best players in the world, however personally I wouldn't rate Rooney in that manner - he has fantastic potential but when you compare him to other players in that position in the world today (ie. Henry, Ronaldinho etc.) I don't think he's quite there yet.

Cole I like as a player, however I'll be honest I wouldn't pick him if I was a manager - he's got fantastic ability, but is a little too quick to bomb forward for me .. I like defenders who put defending first.

If Cole was playing for Brazil then he'd fit in nicely, however England don't generally approach things in that manner and so for me while he might be 'world class' he isn't in the role England need him to play.

Lampard and Terry are to me our other world class players, Beckham is still a very good player (although not in his prime now imho) however the biggest problem we have is simply that our defense is notoriously injury prone and we don't have a goalkeeper who inspires confidence in the same way that we did with Seaman a few years back.

And don't ask me about our left wing position ;)

PS> With picking the squad take into account current injuries - that makes things much more difficult, if an England manager didn't have to shuffle things for injuries then the job would be much much easier - but as I've indicated England are 'Bolton' our first 11 is pretty competitive, its what you do as cover when they're injured thats a large part of the problem ...
I still remember how aimless England looked under Svein a while back when Rooney had to come off injured - he had no plan 'b' and the team stuttered to a half, Allardyce appears to me to be someone who is used to adapting to circumstances regardless of how unexpected they might be.

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 01:57 PM

And Big Phil is out of the running...
To be honest I'm kind of glad, if he couldn't handle the amount of pressure he recieved from the media over the job speculation then he definitely would have found it difficult once a major tournament had started ... as such I think its better for both England and Phil that he's put himself out of the running (and personally I respect the fact that he doesn't like media attention butting into his personal life, however that isn't something he could avoid as an England manager).

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 02:05 PM

GK: Paul Robinson
DL: Ashley Cole
DC: John Terry
DC: Jamie Carragher
DR: Gary Neville
ML: Joe Cole
MC: Steven Gerrard
MC: Frank Lampard
MR: David Beckham
SC: Micheal Owen
SC: Wayne Rooney

Which is a nearly identical team to you - however to me this shows the lack of depth that England have available, it also doesn't show what who we'd pick if we selected the squad and what our subs would be.

For instance if I was England manager I'd have been pushing Shaun Wright-Phillips to move clubs to somewhere he'd have been a first team regular .. if he'd done so he'd have gone in before David Beckham on my team sheet.

Similarly I'd have Dean Ashton on the bench instead of Peter Crouch, which is something I doubt many people would do .. but I'm convinced he'd work at that level ;)

Crapshoot

04-28-2006, 02:30 PM

Crapshoot

04-28-2006, 02:31 PM

Dola,
I'm definitely an Ashton fan as well. I wonder why premiership clubs don't give the Dean Ashton/ Darren Bent types more of a shot - usually, only the smaller clubs do it.

Marc Vaughan

04-28-2006, 03:07 PM

I love Carragher - I think he's extraordinary, and his performance in Istanbul is the stuff dreams are made of (I'm a Liverpool fan). But in terms of ability, Rio just dwarfs him - and I'd want some pace in my back line alongside Terry. :D

Carragher I'd pick for a couple of reasons, main one being that he never gives in and always gives 100%.

Second reason is simply that Rio still tries to dribble with the ball from the wrong areas at times (he has got much better at this in recent years, but its still a worry for me - Joe Cole is the same for me, although because we have next to no cover on the left he's safe on the team list), this is something that can be fatal at an International level and (as those of you who've seen me play FM know) I prefer the idea of a solid defense first and foremost .... if you never let in a goal then you never lose sort of approach ;)

I agree with you on the 'pace' side of things, but I'd prefer to risk that (which is offset by both Carragher and Terry's strong positional ability) rather than let Rio have a rush of blood to his feet and lose the ball in the wrong position ....

Mac Howard

04-28-2006, 08:58 PM

Sorry, Marc, the only way England resemble Bolton is in their lack of depth - the players themselves and their playing styles are as different as chalk and cheese. Your first eleven selection also confirms crapshoot's statement that a poll of players would lead to 8 or 9 of them appearing in almost everyone's selection.

England's additional problem is lack of balance. A midfield of Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard and Cole may well be as skillful a quartet as any team can put out in total but is woefully lacking in defensive qualities. Only Gerrard can make a good defensive tackle but even his inclination is to go forward at every opportunity. If England fail in this coming World Cup, and I think they will, then it will be because of their vulnerability to being dominated physically in midfield. I'm also not convinced about Cole out left - another imbalance there still.

I tend to be in the group that thinks managers should be of the same nationality as the team. Nothing to do with xenophobia but the insistance that the coach is a part of the team. It's a national team and the lack of a quality coach should no more be solved by using a non-national than we should solve England's lack of a defensive midfielder by playing Makelele. The whole point of national football is that it's a competition between the best that nations can put out and that, in my view, should include the manager.

However I would not force that on England unless it were applied by FIFA to all nations.

Allardice, I think, would be a big risk. He currently has no real credentials that qualify him as England coach. I'm not saying that he couldn't do it but it would be a risk. I would prefer McClaren though there's no short of risk there also. The truth is, no England coach can show significant experience of the international game but I guess that situation will continue if we now choose another foreigner.

Marc Vaughan

04-29-2006, 02:35 AM

rry, Marc, the only way England resemble Bolton is in their lack of depth - the players themselves and their playing styles are as different as chalk and cheese. Your first eleven selection also confirms crapshoot's statement that a poll of players would lead to 8 or 9 of them appearing in almost everyone's selection.

The comparison with Bolton was meant to be about the squad depth and their level of ability compared to the teams they're up against not a direct quality for quality comparison between the England and Bolton team.

(which I hope most people managed to realise)

As I indicated in my previous post the first elevens being similar isn't too much of a surprise simply because of that aforesaid lack of depth - the interesting part would be the subs and rest of the squad which are picked simply because England have a strong starting 11 (when they're all fit) but somewhat limited range in backup. Seeing as for nearly every major tournament at least one or two of the 'ideal' 11 is injured how adaptable the coach is to these situations is very important imho ..

Chief Rum

04-29-2006, 03:22 AM

Nice. That almost deserves a "PING: Chief Rum" thread. :D

lol...I was wondering if anyone would remember I'm a Boro fan. It's been a difficult year, between another bout of injuries (like last year) and maddeningly inconsistent play.

The poor league season, though, has been more than held up by this amazing run to the UEFA Final, and also their strong run to the semis for the FA Cup.

Hopefully we can build on this and get back into Europe through league play next year.

BTW, does the UEFA champ get a bid into the competition next year. I had never thought to find out. Of course, the CL did it for Pool last year, but this is not the CL, and this is not Pool.