Regarding looting - Katrina

[Crapshoot]

Dola,
found this on another board- probably nothing, but interesting. Here we have two people "looting" or "finding" - from the same place. Why is one "looting" while the other is "finding" ?

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ladm10208301530%3E

[Butter]

Considering the flood waters, perhaps they were just swimming around and happened to "find" the grocery store in a location that was unexpected.

I got nothin'.

[SackAttack]

It got mentioned here, too, I think. If I had to guess? The goods involved in the "finding" are essential to survival, while those involved in the "looting" aren't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dola,found this on another board-

Very likely because one is an AP photo/captioning, the other is AFP/Getty photo/captioning. I see where you're trying to go, but it doesn't really wash since different organizations have different rules/policies/standard form for this sort of thing.

And, since we're in a different thread, I don't feel nearly as much restraint about saying what I really think -- I think there's definitely a racial aspect to the coverage, if there wasn't, I believe it would be a getting MUCH more play in the national media. I believe it's consciously being downplayed in order to avoid exactly the insinuation you wanted to make.

[Crapshoot]

Very likely because one is an AP photo/captioning, the other is AFP/Getty photo/captioning. I see where you're trying to go, but it doesn't really wash since different organizations have different rules/policies/standard form for this sort of thing.

And, since we're in a different thread, I don't feel nearly as much restraint about saying what I really think -- I think there's definitely a racial aspect to the coverage, if there wasn't, I believe it would be a getting MUCH more play in the national media. I believe it's consciously being downplayed in order to avoid exactly the insinuation you wanted to make.

Interesting. I thought about that jon - didnt know if different people had captioned it, though I guess that's likely. Do you want to expound on what you mean regarding the racial aspect ? Do you think they're downplaying it because the pictures we've seen are black, or are you coming at it from the other side ?

[WSUCougar]

Virtually all of the media images I have seen that - in my mind - represent looting involve black people. In some cases, joyous-looking individuals hauling off stuff that has no bearing on their survival or basic needs.

[sachmo71]

Virtually all of the media images I have seen that - in my mind - represent looting involve black people. In some cases, joyous-looking individuals hauling off stuff that has no bearing on their survival or basic needs.


Interesting thing about one of the looting videos that I saw...it was a loop. They showed the same 20 second clip three times with no sound. then they showed about 5 smaller clips in a row, and repeated them 3 times. I wasn't sure why, unless they were still editing it, but I thought it interesting.

And the old white guy outside was funny.

[Masked]

The population of New Orleans is about 2/3 black, 1/3 white. The wealth distribution is skewed in the opposite direction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting. I thought about that jon - didnt know if different people had captioned it, though I guess that's likely. Do you want to expound on what you mean regarding the racial aspect ? Do you think they're downplaying it because the pictures we've seen are black, or are you coming at it from the other side ?

Yes, I think the story is being downplayed & we're getting fewer images of it because many of the pictures would be of black looters.

But this is a city that is 67% black (as of 2000 Census) so the numbers would tend to dictate a higher number of black faces in any sort of photo taken in New Orleans before or after the storm.

But I don't believe that's how the media powers-that-be think the images would be perceived nor, in at least some cases, do I think they want to have to acknowledge that there's actually some minorities involved in the looting.

[Joe Canadian]

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

[WSUCougar]

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.
Unfortunately, much of the footage I have seen has very little to do with "survival" and has everything to do with taking advantage of a tragic disaster to make off with loot.

[jbmagic]

what bothers me is seeing some people just getting candy only on the footage.


i think its best for the Miltary to handle the food and water situations in an organized fashion.

[sterlingice]

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.
I'm not sure you've read the other Katrina thread. It's been brought up there and basically it was what was talked about above. People stealing food and water- no one had any real problems with. It was the people stealing clothes (no, not dry clothes, dragging them through the water), electronics, jewelry, etc that people were having real problems with.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

Joe, the looting began less than 24 hours after the storm hit ... starvation doesn't start that quick. This is opportunism, plain & simple.

[Klinglerware]

Joe, the looting began less than 24 hours after the storm hit ... starvation doesn't start that quick. This is opportunism, plain & simple.

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...

[WSUCougar]

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...
Remember, a former president declared ketchup a vegetable, so don't exaggerate!

[JonInMiddleGA]

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...

Although I know you were shooting for humor (and my fridge is about the same), it's worth noting here that there's a difference between not having food on hand and "starving". That thread about the amputee mountain climber a couple of weeks ago caused me to run across something on survival that talked about (IIRC) the rule of three's: you can survive 3 hours without adequate temperature protection, 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food.

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.

[Klinglerware]

Although I know you were shooting for humor (and my fridge is about the same), it's worth noting here that there's a difference between not having food on hand and "starving". That thread about the amputee mountain climber a couple of weeks ago caused me to run across something on survival that talked about (IIRC) the rule of three's: you can survive 3 hours without adequate temperature protection, 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food.

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.

Fair enough, Jon...

[cartman]

What I don't understand are the carjackings in downtown New Orleans. Where the hell do they think they are going to be able to go?

[WSUCougar]

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.
I hear you.

But given the circumstances I still can understand somebody foraging for food/drink supplies. That's going into a preservation mode, and if I were in that situation I'd probably be doing the same thing. Shelter + food + water. Whether I theoretically could live without those or not, I'd be doing what I could to secure them.

[gstelmack]

But given the circumstances I still can understand somebody foraging for food/drink supplies. That's going into a preservation mode, and if I were in that situation I'd probably be doing the same thing. Shelter + food + water. Whether I theoretically could live without those or not, I'd be doing what I could to secure them.
Agreed. As was pointed out in the other thread, look the other way on people collecting food and water, but be harsh on those running off with luxury items.

[Ben E Lou]

Interesting thing about one of the looting videos that I saw...it was a loop. They showed the same 20 second clip three times with no sound. then they showed about 5 smaller clips in a row, and repeated them 3 times. I wasn't sure why, unless they were still editing it, but I thought it interestingYeah..I saw that one too. Very odd.

[sabotai]

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)

[Eaglesfan27]

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)
:mad: :mad:


I hope the Martial Law order and the order to stop looters via any means necessary applies to those two cops.


Edit: The above post assumes they weren't acting in the good of the public and acquiring items that they needed to do their job (which they have the power to do.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)

Looting? Or could it have been one of the "authorized to commandeer" (sp?) missions? Could you tell what they were taking/where it was being taken from?

I ask because there's a reference in some of the most recent articles to the New Orleans police chief having to personally shoo away would-be looters as a group of police were taking needed supplies for the rescue teams from an Office Depot.

That gives me the impression that the amount of stuff being taken for official use is more than we might expect/think of.

[sabotai]

Looting? Or could it have been one of the "authorized to commandeer" (sp?) missions? Could you tell what they were taking/where it was being taken from?
It was a Wal-Mart. They were taking shoes when the reporter found them, but they had a shopping cart of stuff. Here's basically how the conversation went with the cop (only one spoke back) and the reporter.

*Reporting walks up to 2 cops who are pushing a shopping cart*
Reporter: How's it going? What are you taking? Shoes?
*one cop stops and turns away, the other one stops taking something off of the shelf and starts to walk away. The second speaks.*
Cop: My job (as she's walking away)
Reporter: What is that?
Cop: Stopping looters.
Reporter: Well there's looters over there. Why not do something about them?
Cop: There's nothing I can do.

And that was the end of the cop segment of their looter footage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And that was the end of the cop segment of their looter footage.

Thanks Sab, I didn't see it, didn't have any idea what was actually shown.
FWIW, what you describe sounds a helluva lot more like "personal use" than
anything else.

[dawgfan]

The most recent CNN web report talks about some looters doing so in front of police - being allowed to take shoes, but only if they fit. I'm not sure why this would be considered OK by the police - I guess the justification is the looters may not have any non-soaked/ruined footware and so getting new shoes is OK as it makes it easier for them to get around as needed to evacuate?

I can completely understand looting for food, water and needed drugs and I can see arguments for looting clothes, rafts/boats and other general supplies for helping others. But those looting for items clearly not intended to help them survive this ordeal have crossed a big line. The question I have for them is, how much good will it do them? Everyone is supposed to evacuated anyway, most homes it sounds like are damaged and/or uninhabitable - do these people think they're going to camp out with their loot and hang on to it until things stabilize?

[Ben E Lou]

do these people think they're going to camp out with their loot and hang on to it until things stabilize?They probably do. They're in survival mode. I doubt that they've spent much time considering the long-term ramifications. They see a DVD player, and think, "this is worth something," when in reality, they probably won't be able to carry it with them when/if they're evacuated, and it'll likely be months before they can pawn it in New Orleans.

[Young Drachma]

It's annoying to see the looting and the racial aspect makes it worse, obviously. But I dunno that there is any real excuse for risking your life to go steal a DVD player from Wal-Mart. Retards.

[Loren]

yeah it all really sucks, the racial aspect i probably wouldnt have even considered, since i know there's a large african american population in NO..EXCEPT that since this is all being shown on the news, our kid saw it, she's almost 6 and yeah she noticed right off that everyone in that Walgreens was black and commented on it..so we had to address that, with the "bad ppl come in every color" speech :( me and her were just there beginning of the month soo we alked by that store and remembers it so its kinda freaky. She especially wasnt very happy seeing the kids looting:(
Course she's been yelling at the tv since she saw the ppl lined up at the superdome the other nite, smiling and waving at the cameras...something bout it being a DISASTER and they shouldnt BE HAPPY :D
I hadnt heard about the looting cops..i heard one who said he'd just assume shoot all the looters and stick a sticker on them saying looter and leave them there dead...and the kid who the female cop grabbed looting and he was swinging at her was pretty damn sad..

[Wolfpack]

I don't think the racial aspect will seriously take hold until something on the order of a crackdown on the lawlessness happens. If that does, I do expect someone somewhere to complain that there was some sort of racial motivation in any sort of heavy-handedness. Until that happens, it feels like the topic is the elephant in the room. Everyone sees it but no one wants to say anything about it because that would make things worse than they already are. I do think it partly explains the different reactions between Governor Barbour in Mississippi who has been virtually quoted as saying looters will be shot on sight, and Governor Blanco of Louisiana who hasn't been particularly adamant about the looting problem until just recently.

[Buccaneer]

Which is why the martial law will not have much teeth to it, despite all of the chest-pounding words coming from the mayor since Sunday. The black civil rights leaders will not allow martial law to really to take effect because they know who the targets will be. And the governor will not do anything more because you can't have whitey oppressing the blacks.

As someone said earlier, reputation (and perceptions) overrule integrity and common sense.

[Honolulu_Blue]

It's annoying to see the looting and the racial aspect makes it worse, obviously. But I dunno that there is any real excuse for risking your life to go steal a DVD player from Wal-Mart. Retards.
This is an interesting editorial from the NYT talking about the racial/political aspects following this, and prior, natural disasters.

The Storm After the Storm

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<NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0">By [url="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/davidbrooks/index.html?inline=nyt-per"]DAVID BROOKS (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01brooks.html?pagewanted=all)
</NYT_BYLINE>Published: September 1, 2005
<!--NYT_INLINE_IMAGE_POSITION1 --><NYT_TEXT>Hurricanes come in two waves. First comes the rainstorm, and then comes what the historian John Barry calls the "human storm" - the recriminations, the political conflict and the battle over compensation. Floods wash away the surface of society, the settled way things have been done. They expose the underlying power structures, the injustices, the patterns of corruption and the unacknowledged inequalities. When you look back over the meteorological turbulence in this nation's history, it's striking how often political turbulence followed.

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In 1889 in Pennsylvania, a great flood washed away much of Johnstown. The water's crushing destruction sounded to one person like a "lot of horses grinding oats." Witnesses watched hundreds of people trapped on a burning bridge, forced to choose between burning to death or throwing themselves into the churning waters to drown.

The flood was so abnormal that the country seemed to have trouble grasping what had happened. The national media were filled with wild exaggerations and fabrications: stories of rivers dammed with corpses, of children who died while playing ring-around-the-rosy and who were found with their hands still clasped and with smiles still on their faces.

Prejudices were let loose. Hungarians then were akin to today's illegal Mexican immigrants - hard-working people who took jobs no one else wanted. Newspapers carried accounts of gangs of Hungarian men cutting off dead women's fingers to steal their rings. "Drunken Hungarians, Dancing, Singing, Cursing and Fighting Amid the Ruins" a New York Herald headline blared.

Then, as David McCullough notes in "The Johnstown Flood," public fury turned on the Pittsburgh millionaires whose club's fishing pond had emptied on the town. The Chicago Herald depicted the millionaires as Roman aristocrats, seeking pleasure while the poor died like beasts in the Coliseum.

Even before the flood, public resentment was building against the newly rich industrialists. Protests were growing against the trusts, against industrialization and against the new concentrations of wealth. The Johnstown flood crystallized popular anger, for the fishing club was indeed partly to blame. Public reaction to the disaster helped set the stage for the progressive movement and the trust-busting that was to come.

In 1900, another great storm hit the U.S., killing over 6,000 people in Galveston, Tex. The storm exposed racial animosities, for this time stories (equally false) swept through the press accusing blacks of cutting off the fingers of corpses to steal wedding rings. The devastation ended Galveston's chance to beat out Houston as Texas' leading port.

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, "Rising Tide," the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played "Bye Bye Blackbird" as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water's pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long's success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.

We'd like to think that the stories of hurricanes and floods are always stories of people rallying together to give aid and comfort. And, indeed, each of America's great floods has prompted a popular response both generous and inspiring. But floods are also civic examinations. Amid all the stories that recur with every disaster - tales of sudden death and miraculous survival, the displacement and the disease - there is also the testing.

Civic arrangements work or they fail. Leaders are found worthy or wanting. What's happening in New Orleans and Mississippi today is a human tragedy. But take a close look at the people you see wandering, devastated, around New Orleans: they are predominantly black and poor. The political disturbances are still to come.

[JonInMiddleGA]

snippets are from http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050901/D8CBHQ7G0.html

At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry, desperate people who were tired of waiting broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.

Inadequate control on the part of those in charge of the supplies. It's food, so I'll stop short of shoot to kill as an initial reponse, but there is ZERO way this should have been able to happen. Whoever was in charge of those supplies (no idea if that's civilian, federal, state, local, whoever) fucked up.

An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

"I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "I buried my dog." He added: "You can do everything for other countries but you can't do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can't get them down here."

Okay, I'm running out of patience with the stupid. Hey, you fucking idiot -- where exactly do you propose they bury them? You can't generally bury people in New Orleans under normal conditions, how in the hell do you propose to do it now.

"They've been teasing us with buses for four days," Edwards said.

And you'd have a helluva lot better chance of being on one of those buses if your charming neighbors would quit starting fires & shooting at the people trying to help you.

"We need an effort of 9-11 proportions," former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, now president of the Urban League, said on NBC's "Today" show. "So many of the people who did not evacuate, could not evacuate for whatever reason. They are people who are African-American mostly but not completely, and people who were of little or limited economic means. They are the folks, we've got to get them out of there."

Will the next clueless dipshit with a sound bite please step forward. Hey Marc, guess what, NYC wasn't freakin' underwater. Y'think maybe it was a little easier to get the manpower & materials in there because of that?

Sorry, but the increased intensity of the complainers seems to have heightened my awareness of how many utterly clueless people are able to get camera time in situations like these.

edited: to fix a typo & a formatting error

[JonInMiddleGA]

Photo caption from the AJC right now

RENEGADE BUS: A man, driving a bus he acquired in New Orleans, delivers a group of refugees to the Astrodome today.

What the caption doesn't show is that the bus is that familiar orangey-yellow color & is clearly labeled "School Bus".

I can't help but wonder how he "acquired" it. IF it is indeed a school bus, then it appears likely that he stole it(since this was an unauthorized "mission") and taking government property during a disaster is generally frowned upon. Alas, I have little doubt that he'll get a free pass on that. I'm critical of that because that's a short step from taking a bus being used by those trying to get people out in an organized manner.

[Crapshoot]

JOn, given the apparent law and order breakdown, and given that these are probably the poorest people (who stayed in the city), can you blame them for trying to get out when everyone (actually, most everyone) has the means has done so already ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

JOn, given the apparent law and order breakdown, and given that these are probably the poorest people (who stayed in the city), can you blame them for trying to get out when everyone (actually, most everyone) has the means has done so already ?

I blame them for behaving in a criminal manner, and particuarly in a criminal manner that affects the very resources that are needed to save the largest number of people possible, yes sir, you're damned skippy I do.

[stevew]

When are they gonna break out the Blackhawks?

[JonInMiddleGA]

When are they gonna break out the Blackhawks?

Whenever it is, it's later than it should have been.

[Anthony]

i hope everyone is going off on the people who are looting non-essential items, like electronics. i fail to see the reason for this animosity if it's also being directed at people stealing items to survive, like food and clothing. there's a clear difference.

[albionmoonlight]

Leaving aside the important issue of how to best deal with the looters, does anyone have a sense of if we are going to. From what I can see, nothing is being done.

[sterlingice]

i hope everyone is going off on the people who are looting non-essential items, like electronics. i fail to see the reason for this animosity if it's also being directed at people stealing items to survive, like food and clothing. there's a clear difference.
Well, it's only been mentioned at least 4 times in this thread and a bunch more in the other thread. Glad you read before posting.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=883693&postcount=13
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=883775&postcount=20
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=883782&postcount=21
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=884273&postcount=28

SI

[Anthony]

ok, by Jon's comments it didn't seem like he was descriminating between thieves and those trying to survive.

[cartman]

Those of us on the outside have had the benefit of receiving regular news updates. From all accounts, the people left behind in New Orleans have almost no access to any kind of news or info. If I was there and wasn't told anything and had no way of getting info, I would start to think that I was abandoned and would have to fend for myself after three days of those conditions.

[Anthony]

I would start to think that I was abandoned and would have to fend for myself after three days of those conditions.

"abondoned"? isn't that a bit extreme?

if anything, one, without access to news and seeing a lack of prompt results, could start to think perhaps they fell on the lower end of the priority scale, sure - i can see the logic there. but to say "woe is us, all hope is lost forever!!" and to start dressing in animal skins and hunt prey with spears...

[Wolfpack]

I would also think they'd realize they aren't "abandoned" per se, simply because they have to be seeing all the helicopters, boats, cameramen, reporters, etc. Now, they may feel that it's taking entirely too long to get help and therefore they have to act, but I don't think they believe they're abandoned.

[Blackadar]

Seriously, the police have started looting too.

[cartman]

I guess abandoned wasn't quite the right word to use.

In the absence of info, people usually tend to assume the worst. We know that the helicopters are news helicopters, but how do the people on the ground know that? They might think they are relief copters, and wonder why they aren't stopping to help, or dropping anything to them. If you'd been stuck on your roof or in your attic for several days with no human contact, other than a copter flying by or a boat a few blocks away, and the water that isn't dropping in level at all, there would be hope starting to be lost.

[JonInMiddleGA]

ok, by Jon's comments it didn't seem like he was descriminating between thieves and those trying to survive.

I'm not nearly as discriminating in my beliefs about the best & most appropriate way to deal with looters as many who are posting in the thread.

[SackAttack]

This seemed like the place to post it, but...what the hell?

There are snipers taking shots at the National Guardsmen who are trying to rescue the stranded?

[JonInMiddleGA]

This seemed like the place to post it, but...what the hell?

There are snipers taking shots at the National Guardsmen who are trying to rescue the stranded?

Yep.
And at helicopters evacuating the patients from area hospitals.

[SackAttack]

Somebody let Beelzebub know to stoke the fires, because there's a front row seat in hell waiting for the jackass who came up with that bright idea.

[dawgfan]

Seriously, the police have started looting too.

Are they actually "looting"? I've heard they're commandeering things like food, water and prescription drugs to help the stranded, are siphoning gas from abandoned cars to fuel up their police cars and are taking ammunition from stores to keep it out of the hands of the looters, but do we really have confirmation that police are out and out looting, i.e. taking things for personal gain that can't be construed as part of a) keeping them alive and b) helping the relief efforts?

[Masked]

Are they actually "looting"? I've heard they're commandeering things like food, water and prescription drugs to help the stranded, are siphoning gas from abandoned cars to fuel up their police cars and are taking ammunition from stores to keep it out of the hands of the looters, but do we really have confirmation that police are out and out looting, i.e. taking things for personal gain that can't be construed as part of a) keeping them alive and b) helping the relief efforts?
Nothing large scale - there may be two that were caught in a Walmart though.

Several local reports suggests that the national media is exaggerating the looting and violence. Several of the reports of violent behavior that were publicized on Tuesday were debunked yesterday.

There are certainly many severe problems though.

[JeeberD]

Are they actually "looting"?


Looting: The police are looting. This has been confirmed by several independent sources. Some of the looting might be "legitimate" in as much as that word has any meaning in this context. They have broken into ATMs and safes: confirmed. We have eyewitnesses to this. They have taken dozens of SUVs from dealerships ostensibly for official use. They have also looted gun stores and pawn shops for all the small arms, supposedly to prevent "criminals" from doing so. But who knows their true intentions. We have an inside source in the NOPD who says that command and control is in chaos. He reports that command lapses more than 24 hours between check-ins, and that most of the force are "like deer in the headlights." NOPD already had a reputation for corruption, but I am telling you now that the people we've been talking to say they are not recognizing the NOPD as a legitimate authority anymore, since cops have been seen looting in Walmarts and forcing people out of stores so they could back up SUVs and loot them. Don't shoot the messenger....

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

[dawgfan]

There is a definite line that has been crossed when people there have started shooting at the police, the rescue workers and the hospitals.

I have no issue with those raiding stores for food and water and I can sympathize with those taking clothes, rafts/boats and other supplies to help rescue others or help them make it to shelters.

I think the people stealing money, jewelry and non-essential goods are morons at best and opportunistic scumbags at worst, but I have a hard time with anything greater than shoot to injure in those cases (and shots of warning should be enough).

But those that have armed themselves and have given up all pretense of an ordered society and started shooting at others, raping others and threatening innocents, these people have forsaken the basic social contracts and thus have earned the right to be shot at to kill. The social order has degenerated into total anarchy in much of the city if the reports are to be believed, and that justifies a reaction of "by any means necessary" in order to regain control.

[WSUCougar]

but I am telling you now that the people we've been talking to say they are not recognizing the NOPD as a legitimate authority anymore
If true, this is a REALLY bad sign.

[sterlingice]

Somebody let Beelzebub know to stoke the fires, because there's a front row seat in hell waiting for the jackass who came up with that bright idea.
Lovely imagery. I give it a 9. :)

SI

[WSUCougar]

Lovely imagery. I give it a 9.
I've always preferred the simpler: "They'll be shoveling shit in hell for that."

[dawgfan]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

And who is the "interdictor" and why should I trust his reports? Most of what was quoted sounds like legitimate action by the police to me - the commandeering of SUV's (you need big vehicles to get around in the flooded streets), the taking of small arms and ammunition to keep out of the hands of looters. Would I be shocked if a few are abusing the situation and actually looting valuables or breaking into ATM's? No, but I doubt it's anything like a majority.

Panic is the rule of the day, and I have no doubt that there are a lot of misinterpretations happening right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've seen several references to "shoot to wound" in the various threads, the latest one is here, so that's where I'll post this thought: Somebody has been watching too many old westerns. Even top flight snipers generally acknowledge the difficulties in that feat, under optimum firing conditions.

Under the conditions that these events would be taking place? Such a notion borders on the absurd.

[Wolfpack]

I believe that was me who said that and I agree it's tricky as hell to do it, but taking lives must not be the primary way of restoring order. At least try not to. Yes, wishy-washy and a little weak-kneed, but there's a long way between trying to wound someone and accidentally catching the head and intentionally going for the head. There's enough death going around right now without the authorities having to do it for petty looting. By all means gun down the asshats who are actually wielding weapons against authorities, but don't be indiscriminate, if possible, regarding the remaining populace.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I believe that was me who said that and I agree it's tricky as hell to do it, but taking lives must not be the primary way of restoring order. At least try not to.

You weren't alone in that comment Wolfpack, so I want to make sure you didn't think I was singling out yours or anything. But I have to emphasize here, it's not just "tricky as hell", it's much closer to "damned near impossible to do consistently". And you're likely to get some troops/police killed trying it.

I'm sorry, but if you're firing at a human target that has the slightest potential to kill you in the exchange or a subsequent exchange, only a fool or a prospective martyr fires with the intent to do anything other than kill. I wouldn't ask anyone to put themselves in that position & would probably be more critical of anyone who ordered that than anything you've ever seen me criticize.

[dawgfan]

I've seen several references to "shoot to wound" in the various threads, the latest one is here, so that's where I'll post this thought: Somebody has been watching too many old westerns. Even top flight snipers generally acknowledge the difficulties in that feat, under optimum firing conditions.

Under the conditions that these events would be taking place? Such a notion borders on the absurd.

I guess the only problem I see with the suggestion is if they do hit and injure someone in the feet or legs, given the rescue and health situation in the city it may be simply a more long and drawn out way of killing them than hitting them in the head or chest.

In general though I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that in certain situations if the police are going to shoot at people to aim low instead of high.

At this point, I'd say it's not worth trying to spend much effort going after the looters (aside from those going after guns) and focus instead on dealing with those that are armed and dangerous.

[dawgfan]

I'm sorry, but if you're firing at a human target that has the slightest potential to kill you in the exchange or a subsequent exchange, only a fool or a prospective martyr fires with the intent to do anything other than kill. I wouldn't ask anyone to put themselves in that position & would probably be more critical of anyone who ordered that than anything you've ever seen me criticize.

Don't get me wrong - if the police are facing armed response, by all means do whatever is necessary. For those obviously unarmed and taking a TV set, a different response is reasonable IMO.

[Wolfpack]

Fair enough. Everybody in the room has automatic weapons and chances are only the trained folks are trying to keep the shooting to a three-burst maximum for ammo conservation. I can see how that ends up a mess really quick no matter how hard you try. I guess I'm aiming to minimize casualties as much as possible since this isn't some lawless terrorist insurrection in Iraq. These are looters in New Orleans...Americans...you know...morons. :)

[WSUCougar]

I guess I'm aiming to minimize casualties as much as possible since this isn't some lawless terrorist insurrection in Iraq. These are looters in New Orleans...Americans...you know...morons. :)
I appreciate what you are driving at, but it's my impression that it's become lawlessness, American style. Notions that this is anything approaching a "normal" American city setting are long since gone. Looting is no longer even the right term for it. It's raging anarchy.

[stevew]

When all is said and done, this hurricane will probably have close to the most "urban legend" of any event in US history. Who knows what is fact or fiction, for certain, at this point.

[Anthony]

Don't get me wrong - if the police are facing armed response, by all means do whatever is necessary. For those obviously unarmed and taking a TV set, a different response is reasonable IMO.

watch it, you used the "r" word with Jon.

[sterlingice]

Seriously, the police have started looting too.
Not to thread dump, but yet again, this thread is the dumping ground of stuff that's already been talked about quite a bit in the other thread:

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?p=884242&highlight=police+looting#post884242

SI

[Masked]

When all is said and done, this hurricane will probably have close to the most "urban legend" of any event in US history. Who knows what is fact or fiction, for certain, at this point.
Agreed - CNN and other national netwroks are reading posts from message boards as if they were confirmed facts. Some of what they have read is incredibly absurd, but everyone believes they are true.

[Loren]

well crap i was right there going along agreeing with Jon about the ppl complaining..but you lost me on the "renegade bus"...dude, arent you one of the most conservative-Y, religious-Y people on this forum, i know ive just about always disagreed with you soo im thinking yes...and you wouldnt try to help as many ppl as you could because it wasnt done by the book? that bus was the first one that arrived at the astrodome, they werent ppl from the superdome but ppl who needed to be evacuated, and if you saw it, it was packed right up to the ppl squished up against the driver..i say good for him for helping everyone in there..school bus-govt property or not, in such a situation you take what you can get and if you're willing to help everyone around you at the same time, yay freakn yay.. they werent even allowed at the dome but were turned over to the another shelter.. im not sure why school busses werent all used in such a matter, everyone had to have "charter busses" :rolleyes:
the media's nuts with this though, one report says the hospital has no security then the dr's there are interviewed and say they have hosp security and guardsmen there, the one report i saw a bit ago that was kinda depressing was the one from the "convention center" guy there said everyone was trying to be as calm as possible even though they havent had water or food for days, and there were no signs of police or guardsmen around the center anymore..hopefully he was exaggerating:(
..there ya go, all nice and red..sorry i was typing in a hurried emotional state

[SackAttack]

well crap i was right there going along agreeing with Jon about the ppl complaining..but you lost me on the "renegade bus"...dude, arent you one of the most conservative-Y, religious-Y people on this forum, i know ive just about always disagreed with you soo im thinking yes...and you wouldnt try to help as many ppl as you could because it wasnt done by the book? that bus was the first one that arrived at the astrodome, they werent ppl from the superdome but ppl who needed to be evacuated, and if you saw it, it was packed right up to the ppl squished up against the driver..i say good for him for helping everyone in there..school bus-govt property or not, in such a situation you take what you can get and if you're willing to help everyone around you at the same time, yay freakn yay.. they werent even allowed at the dome but were turned over to the another shelter.. im not sure why school busses werent all used in such a matter, everyone had to have "charter busses" :rolleyes:
the media's nuts with this though, one report says the hospital has no security then the dr's there are interviewed and say they have hosp security and guardsmen there, the one report i saw a bit ago that was kinda depressing was the one from the "convention center" guy there said everyone was trying to be as calm as possible even though they havent had water or food for days, and there were no signs of police or guardsmen around the center anymore..hopefully he was exaggerating:(


Who are you and what have you done with red-text Loren?

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Joe, the looting began less than 24 hours after the storm hit ... starvation doesn't start that quick. This is opportunism, plain & simple.
DING DING DING.
Now comes report of gangs of horny bandits looking for women to rape. Hope they die under a hail of 50 cal rounds.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Loren -- like I said, I'd like to know more about how the bus was "acquired". Without knowing what that really means, it's hard to do much more than speculate & work in what-if scenarios.

It was the somewhat odd, IMO, word choice that actually made me wonder about that angle in the first place I think, because that part didn't cross my mind the first several times I heard about the whole renegade angle.

To answer what might be your question ultimately though -- yes, there are scenarios where I believe the driver might be deserving of prosecution.

[JonInMiddleGA]

DING DING DING.
Now comes report of gangs of horny bandits looking for women to rape.

Which I mentioned earlier today in one thread or another.

This is getting to the point that if you saw the original Earthquake movie (remember creepy ol' Marjoe Gartner as the Nat'l Guardsman?) & read a few doomsday novels in the 80's & 90's everything that's happening is predictable.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Which I mentioned earlier today in one thread or another.

This is getting to the point that if you saw the original Earthquake movie (remember creepy ol' Marjoe Gartner as the Nat'l Guardsman?) & read a few doomsday novels in the 80's & 90's everything that's happening is predictable.It's pretty sad but true. I guess it's time to say ''Art Bell was right.''

[Solecismic]

Ultimately, will we remember the hurricane that claimed thousands of lives, or the behavior afterward, which may claim just as many?

This will change forever how cities train for disaster recovery.

[Buccaneer]

Jim, aren't most wars and disasters the same way, where more lives were lost after the actual battle or event?

There is lawlessness going on in a city that always have been at the forefront of criminal and lawless behavior. But, I really do think the national media is magnifying this out of proportion to what else is going on.

[st.cronin]

DING DING DING.
Now comes report of gangs of horny bandits looking for women to rape. Hope they die under a hail of 50 cal rounds.

They should be publicly castrated with a plastic spoon by bitter rape victims.

[Ben E Lou]

This is getting to the point that if you saw the original Earthquake movie (remember creepy ol' Marjoe Gartner as the Nat'l Guardsman?) & read a few doomsday novels in the 80's & 90's everything that's happening is predictable.I was thinking The Day After.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was thinking The Day After.

Add to that elements of The Rift by Walter Jon Williams and maybe a few scattered images from Robert McCammon's Swan Song

[Loren]

They should be publicly castrated with a plastic spoon by bitter rape victims.

not a rape victim but i do have a whole lot of bitterness, anger, plus im pms'ing, and most importantly a pretty trusty spork...im sure thats enough to take at least a thousand losers out on my own

[cartman]

not a rape victim but i do have a whole lot of bitterness, anger, plus im pms'ing, and most importantly a pretty trusty spork...im sure thats enough to take at least a thousand losers out on my own

I hope Cringer is on the road right now...

:D

[Honolulu_Blue]

Robert McCammon's Swan Song
Man, I loved that book. Then I read "The Stand" and figured out it was pretty much a copy of that in most regards. But I still oved it. That scene in the K-Mart where the guy has his arms tied behind his back and has to make it from one end of the store to the other with all those psychos trying to kill him... Great stuff. I actually loved most of his books then he sorta fell off the map.

Sorry for the digression from looting, but I nailed the Post Apocalyptic nature of this in the other thread hours ago...

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?p=884759&highlight=humungus#post884759

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry for the digression from looting, but I nailed the Post Apocalyptic nature of this in the other thread hours ago...

I think I caught of glimpse of your mention earlier & then things started moving quickly & it slipped my mind.

At the risk of being chastised for a brief detour, here's a link you ought to check out if you haven't already. (helps explain why he sort of dropped off the map)
http://www.robertmccammon.com/faq.html#horror

[sterlingice]

I was thinking The Day After.
Yay! A local movie! (part of it was filmed in Lawrence)

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

I think I caught of glimpse of your mention earlier & then things started moving quickly & it slipped my mind.

At the risk of being chastised for a brief detour, here's a link you ought to check out if you haven't already. (helps explain why he sort of dropped off the map)
http://www.robertmccammon.com/faq.html#horror
Thanks for the link. It's a shame he retired. Always enjoyed his stuff. Granted I haven't read any of it since I graduated highschool, but he was my favorite author there for a while.

[SackAttack]

DING DING DING.
Now comes report of gangs of horny bandits looking for women to rape. Hope they die under a hail of 50 cal rounds.

I heard on KFWB that there are reports of rapes and beatings taking place in the NOCC, where 15,000 refugees are staying.

Tell me something, and yes, I know human nature can be a bitch sometimes.

But how the hell do you have 15,000 people and yet there aren't enough able-bodied individuals there who are able or willing to help protect the weak from dipshits?

Are they all that shell-shocked that in close quarters they can hear or see this stuff going on and they aren't going to step in and do anything about it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Are they all that shell-shocked that in close quarters they can hear or see this stuff going on and they aren't going to step in and do anything about it?

You want an honest answer?

I don't believe there's sufficient character in the 15,000 to care enough to put a stop to it.

[SackAttack]

You want an honest answer?

I don't believe there's sufficient character in the 15,000 to care enough to put a stop to it.

That's the part that scares me, that I don't really want to think about.

Because if there isn't sufficient character in the face of one of the worst storms of the last, let's say, century for people to come together and do what they can to protect one another, why should we expect anything better when circumstances aren't quite so severe?

[chinaski]

theres been a total of 3 reports of violence, none of which are confirmed. why dont you hold off your knee jerk reactions until 800,000 people are actually safe? What good does it do anyone right now to talk about looting or violence when there are 100's of thousands of people in the exact same position they were in 4 days ago?

[Buccaneer]

That's the part that scares me, that I don't really want to think about.

Because if there isn't sufficient character in the face of one of the worst storms of the last, let's say, century for people to come together and do what they can to protect one another, why should we expect anything better when circumstances aren't quite so severe?
You want an honest answer?

[sterlingice]

Again, can we just merge these threads already since there's a ton of crosstalking going on?

SI

[Buccaneer]

theres been a total of 3 reports of violence, none of which are confirmed. why dont you hold off your knee jerk reactions until 800,000 people are actually safe? What good does it do anyone right now to talk about looting or violence when there are 100's of thousands of people in the exact same position they were in 4 days ago?
Sort of the point I was trying to make. If there hadn't been this disaster, how many violent crimes would have been reported this week from NO in the national media?

I just don't understand why anyone would not have expected this esp. knowing who was left after the evacuations and that such population would grow more desperate given the conditions.

[Airhog]

All we hear about is the lawlessness of the sitution. I would imagine there is a very small number of crooks, and criminals that are doing 95% of this. Im sure every large city has a few wacko's that would just love to take pot shots at military helicopters, and stuff, so it doesnt surprise me that this is happening. As far as the looting goes, I think that there is far less people in N.O. stealing T.V.'s then the media would have you believe. Same goes for the violent crimes.

Every city has bad apples, although most of them are not put in a situation of none or very little police presence. I would imagine the same thing would happen in every large city in america if they were befallen by a similar tragedy.

[JeeberD]

I was thinking The Day After.

I always remembered watching that movie when I was a kid and for some reason it hit a nerve in me. Recently I decided to rent it and see if it was as good as I remembered...ugh. The movie didn't hold up well against the test of time...

[dawgfan]

I always remembered watching that movie when I was a kid and for some reason it hit a nerve in me. Recently I decided to rent it and see if it was as good as I remembered...ugh. The movie didn't hold up well against the test of time...

That was the nuclear war scenario, right?

I thought the better one of those two was the one that was the guy with the nuclear warhead on a ship in an East Coast harbor, with the movie taking the point of view of a local TV newscast coverage of it. I had chills from the final shot of that one...

[Radii]

That's the part that scares me, that I don't really want to think about.

Because if there isn't sufficient character in the face of one of the worst storms of the last, let's say, century for people to come together and do what they can to protect one another, why should we expect anything better when circumstances aren't quite so severe?

Another thought that has been briefly mentioned elsewhere is that in this situation, it seems fairly likely that the bad guys have guns, and the good guys don't, among those that are holed up in these places. I'm sure there many people in there would chase after a purse snatcher but won't put their own life on the line against a gang with weapons so openly committing violent crimes.

[Klinglerware]

That was the nuclear war scenario, right?

I thought the better one of those two was the one that was the guy with the nuclear warhead on a ship in an East Coast harbor, with the movie taking the point of view of a local TV newscast coverage of it. I had chills from the final shot of that one...

Yup, Charleston Harbor... "Special Bulletin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Bulletin


Lots of made for TV movies during the 80s red scare. I remember the one where the USS Nimitz was nuked in an exchange with the Soviet Navy in the Persian Gulf...

[stevew]

For some of these armed looters, this truly will be the most power they ever have in their lives. I dont know how peacefully some will be willing to give up their weapons and newly acquired possessions. I bet there will be a ton of "suicide by cop/army" when the police are finally able to go door to door and secure the city.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

I can't believe what I just read on espn.com
The Superdome was a shelter of last resort during Katrina and thousands of evacuees were stranded there for several days. Toilets backed up and overflowed, the Dome Cafe and some offices were looted and trash was left behind as evacuees abandoned property.
So if you're trapped in the Superdome with no food or water and you think "Hey... don't they have a cafe here that might have nourishment?" you are labeled a criminal. Sad...

[sterlingice]

I can't believe what I just read on espn.com

So if you're trapped in the Superdome with no food or water and you think "Hey... don't they have a cafe here that might have nourishment?" you are labeled a criminal. Sad...
Yeah, but this is like what was going on the first couple of days. The Cafe was "foraging" but the offices were "looting" and whatnot. However, since the PC police have mostly blown over and ESPN's intellectually lazy to begin with, they go thrown in the same sentence.

SI