Werewolf XVII: Return of the Wolves

[Neon_Chaos]

Simple game, no? :) Gauging interest. Just post below if you want in.

:Primary Roles: (Each player is guaranteed to one of these roles)
Werewolf - You belong to a pack of werewolves. You may choose to kill one person each night.
Villager - You are a villager, and your sole purpose is to survive.
Seer - You are the seer, and can view the true identity of a man or wolf. Each night you may choose to view the true identity of one player.
Herbalist - You possess a bag of wolfsbane, the deadliest herb known to all wolfkind. Each night, you may choose to protect someone by slipping wolfsbane upon him. You may not choose someone two nights in a row. You may, however, choose yourself.
Duke - You are the Duke, disguised as a petty farmer, as a one-time action you may choose to prevent one person from being lynched and instead have someone else be the target of the lynching.
Witness - As a one-time skill, you may choose to view the killing of an innocent during the night. If noone is killed, then you waste your view.

:Supplementary Roles, Villager/Seer/Herbalist/Duke/Witness: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Cursed - You are cursed, and have been so since birth. If bitten by a werewolf, you will join their ranks. Of course, you will not know that you are cursed until you are bitten by a wolf.
Blessed - You are blessed, and have been so since birth. If bitten by a werewolf, you will be granted a second chance at life. You do not know that you are blessed until bitten by a werewolf... note that this does not save you from lynching.
Cupid - In a previous life, you were Cupid. In the beginning of the game, you may assign two players to be "lovers". You may not choose yourself.

:Supplementaty Roles, Werewolves: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Brutal - You are a vicious wolf, and if lynched, you may choose to bring one person of your choice to the grave with you.
Cunning - You are a deceitful wolf, and if lynched, you will not reveal yourself as a werewolf upon death.

:Supplementary Roles, All: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Lover - You are fraternally and eternally bonded with your "lover", upon the death of your lover, you shall die as well. You know who your "lover" is, and vice versa. However, you may not PM each other.

Rules:

There will be two phases, a Day Phase and a Night Phase.

During the Day Phase, everyone votes to lynch one player. In case of a tie, the player who got his first vote last will be lynched.

During the Night Phase, all players with Night actions may choose to do their actions, or do nothing at all. Only one Werewolf will PM me the Werewolves' choice of slaughter, and that Werewolf will do the killing.

Note that a supplementary role may be mixed with a primary role, so we might have a "Seer/Blessed" in the game, or a "Duke/Cursed". The effect of being Cursed is that you lose your primary role and become a werewolf instead.

If a player is lynched, his Primary Role is revealed, if a Cunning wolf is killed, he will only be viewed as a Villager.

Deadlines are still tentative.

Werewolves win if they reach a 1:1 ratio with the villagers. Villagers win if all werewolves are dead.

Players: (If you're not in here and you signed up, tell me)
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49

[SackAttack]

Been a while. Count me in.

[st.cronin]

i'll give it a whirl

[McSweeny]

when is this going to be running? i've got a weird schedule for the next couple of days, if there are no major conflicts i'll be in

[Neon_Chaos]

The game will probably start next week.

[Mr. Wednesday]

If this won't run into Thanksgiving, in. If it will run into Thanksgiving, I'll be home over the holiday and unable to participate during that period.

[kingfc22]

Woot. I'm in

[Neon_Chaos]

We can all set a date, maybe a week or two weeks from now. When is Thanksgiving in the US?

[Blade6119]

Im in, though will be out of town friday-sunday....ideally a start of monday would be best for me, though i can make due if need be over the weekend

[Vince]

We can all set a date, maybe a week or two weeks from now. When is Thanksgiving in the US?
November 24th.

I'm too busy nowadays with Bartender training and looking for a house, otherwise I'd be all over this. Good luck all.

[Raiders Army]

Sign me up!

[Passacaglia]

Count me in.

[Barkeep49]

I would like to play but it depends on the timing of the deadline.

[hoopsguy]

In.

[Mr. Wednesday]

November 24th. That's on Thursday... I'll be gone (with limited time to read the board) from Wednesday afternoon through Sunday night.

[RPI-Fan]

I'm in!

[rkmsuf]

Cupid - In a previous life, you were Cupid. In the beginning of the game, you may assign two players to be "lovers". You may not choose yourself.


uh, yeah.

[Poli]

Inn.

[pennywisesb]

I'll play. Its been awhile.

[SnDvls]

in, with the same thanksgiving restrictions

[McSweeny]

We can all set a date, maybe a week or two weeks from now. When is Thanksgiving in the US?

sounds good to me, i'm in

[RPI-Fan]

I'd say the two start dates that would make sense are Thursday, Nov. 10 (tomorrow), or Monday, Nov. 28th (first regular day after Thanksgiving). Anything inbetween there will probably run over Thxsgiving... alternatively, we could start at an intermediate date and specify that Thurs. the 24th thru the Sun. the 27th will be off-days.

[Neon_Chaos]

Here's what I will do. We'll start things off Nov. 14 (Monday) and then declare Nov. 24-27 as off-days. How's that sound to everyone?

I was also thinking about the deadline times for each phase.

I'm thinking about an 8:00 PM Deadline for the Day Phase (votes), and a 12:00 Midnight Deadline for Night Phase. Or if you have any other suggestions, kindly inform me.

[Neon_Chaos]

Bump. I'd also like it if we got some fresh blood joining in.

[Schmidty]

I am in if there's room.

I've had enough of a break.

[SirFozzie]

I'm in too.. I figure people won't lynch me on sight now :D

[dubb93]

What the heck, I'll play.

[Barkeep49]

As I haven't confirmed I will play.

[Barkeep49]

DOLA -- I really hope this game goes well as sitting bored here at work I just went and visited a board that hosts werewolf games and finally got the missing piece for a concept that I came up with during Werewolf Spawn. It will be a lot simpler than that game (though it won’t be a traditional game like this one). Anyhow I’m all excited again and so I’m rooting for this game to go well so people would want to play in my game :).

[Raiders Army]

Here's what I will do. We'll start things off Nov. 14 (Monday) and then declare Nov. 24-27 as off-days. How's that sound to everyone?
Sounds good to me.

I was also thinking about the deadline times for each phase.

I'm thinking about an 8:00 PM Deadline for the Day Phase (votes), and a 12:00 Midnight Deadline for Night Phase. Or if you have any other suggestions, kindly inform me.
Anything is good for me, but you're talking about 8 PM EST?

[Neon_Chaos]

Sounds good to me.


Anything is good for me, but you're talking about 8 PM EST?
Yep. All times are in EST.

[Neon_Chaos]

Here is my list of Players: (If you're not in here and you signed up, tell me)
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49

If noone else is joining, then I'm going to give out roles on Tuesday Morning, we can start with Night (0) on Tuesday Night and Day (1) on Wednesday Morning. I edited the rules a bit, so please read and re-read them.

[Schmidty]

It doesn't look like any new blood like you wanted.

[st.cronin]

It doesn't look like any new blood like you wanted.

I have never played this game before.

[Schmidty]

I have never played this game before.

I stand corrected.

[Neon_Chaos]

Anyone have an under/over of the post count we're going to have? :)

[Blade6119]

Im in, though will be out of town friday-sunday....ideally a start of monday would be best for me, though i can make due if need be over the weekend

Here is my list of Players: (If you're not in here and you signed up, tell me)
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49

If noone else is joining, then I'm going to give out roles on Tuesday Morning, we can start with Night (0) on Tuesday Night and Day (1) on Wednesday Morning. I edited the rules a bit, so please read and re-read them.

Post #9

[Neon_Chaos]

Player List:
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49
Blade6119

Players are final. Roles will be sent out in a couple of hours.

[Neon_Chaos]

ROLES HAVE BEEN SENT OUT. Cupid, you pick two players who are "lovers". Seer, you may view a player in Night(0). There will be no kills in Night(0). Voting begins on Wednesday, deadline will be at 8:00 PM EST.

When voting, kindly do so in bold and all caps.:

VOTE NEON_CHAOS

to unvote, the same applies.

UNVOTE NEON_CHAOS

Happy Wolf-hunting.

[Blade6119]

For rule clarification, do lovers know each others roles, as in is it possible a villager and warewolf can be lovers and the villager not know?

[SirFozzie]

What, like Romeo and Wolfiet?

[Blade6119]

lol, no...i understand lovers know who their lover is, but can lovers not know the role of their lover...its an honest question that could heavily affect gameplay

[Neon_Chaos]

For rule clarification, do lovers know each others roles, as in is it possible a villager and warewolf can be lovers and the villager not know?

As soon as the lovers are informed of who they are lovers with, they will only know that the other person is their "lover". (yes, yes, lots of wonderful homosexual referrence for this game... muhahaha.) But they will not know that person's role.

Yes, a Villager and a Werewolf might be lovers, or two Werewolves. Depends on who Cupid chooses at the beginning.

[Raiders Army]

Peon Raiders Army checking in. Ready to work.

[hoopsguy]

Top of the morning, y'all.

[Poli]

Checking in. I'm a villager. I won't be on much, and I'm travelling back to Chicago this afternoon.

[Barkeep49]

Peon Raiders Army checking in. Ready to work.
Peon? There's no role that's a peon. A secret role perhaps :D?

Joking aside I'm looking forward to playing again.

[Passacaglia]

Villager checking in here before class.

[hoopsguy]

Just wanted to verify what is taking place today:
1.) No day action
2.) Night action (Night 0, no kill)

Is this accurate? No movement towards any kind of lynching until tomorrow?

[SnDvls]

villager checking in

[Raiders Army]

Just wanted to verify what is taking place today:
1.) No day action
2.) Night action (Night 0, no kill)

Is this accurate? No movement towards any kind of lynching until tomorrow?

Hmmmm, this is unlike you not reading carefully enough. A mistake or a wolf already trying to muddy the waters? :)

ROLES HAVE BEEN SENT OUT. Cupid, you pick two players who are "lovers". Seer, you may view a player in Night(0). There will be no kills in Night(0). Voting begins on Wednesday, deadline will be at 8:00 PM EST.

[hoopsguy]

I'm all for trying to put people on the defensive early, but conjecturing that I'm trying to muddy anything by asking the moderator to clarify seems a little od.

In fairness, perhaps I was guilty of not reading carefully enough. I posed the question after re-reading post #1 to make sure I understood all of the roles for this game and did not assimilate the information in Post #39 (which you quoted) at that time.

[hoopsguy]

Since we are on a no-lynch day, lets take the conversation in a different direction. Has anyone come up with new strategies over our werewolf hiatus that may work better for Day 1 activities? It is easily my least favorite day of werewolf games since we are basically flying blind.

[st.cronin]

This is my first game, so I don't know anything about strategy, or really even the rules. I would appreciate tips or primers.

[pennywisesb]

Villager checking in. Glad to be playing WW again, its been awhile.

[Raiders Army]

I'm all for trying to put people on the defensive early, but conjecturing that I'm trying to muddy anything by asking the moderator to clarify seems a little od.
Did you see the smiley after my comment? Just poking fun at you, that's all.

[Raiders Army]

This is my first game, so I don't know anything about strategy, or really even the rules. I would appreciate tips or primers.
Basically there are two phases:

We vote to lynch someone during the day phase based upon suspicions, etc.

The wolves attack at night and can kill one of us. The seer can also choose to "view" someone of his choosing to see if they are a wolf or villager. The problem with this is that once the seer determines who is a wolf and comes out and says it, it makes him a target that night.

This is basically like Survivor on the internet boards. People will lie and backstab in order to win. If we kill all of the wolves, we win. If the wolves come to a 1:1 ratio with us, then they win. There are certain variations of the game, like this man-love Cupid stuff. :)

[hoopsguy]

Jumping on what RA said, the fundamental premise for me in WW is that you are playing a game of incomplete information. Information comes from day/night actions and from the postings of the participants. Villagers try to use the info to get a clearer picture of how to act, while werewolves try to misdirect or dampen the flow of information.

The strategies for the game vary over the course of the game as more information becomes available. This is why the first day is tough, because there is so little information to act upon when making a decision to lynch. Ultimately, even lynching an innocent can provide some information because you can now review that person's posts knowing that he was working with you (if you are a villager, that is).

If you have a special role, then you should use your powers to ensure the survival of the villagers to the best of your ability. This is not as easy as it seems; there are instances of a Duke role saving a werewolf to kill a villager and seers getting invalid information depending on the nuances of the game.

As the game progresses a villager begins to compile his own list of who he trusts and who he does not trust. A villager does not have the ability to send PMs to other villagers (if they want to maintain the integrity of the game, that is) so they have to figure out how to work their strategy in a public forum. If they keep their information/suspicions close to the vest then they run the risk of being lynched themselves or devoured by the wolves before they are able to supply this information to the group. Nothing is worse for the villagers than losing their seer on Night 1 before he can reveal a wolf - unless it is losing the seer because his lover is lynched ...

The wolves have the ability to communicate with each other, so they can act in concert in terms of voting. However, they may wish to avoid doing so since the voting patterns are public knowledge. But situations arise where their hand may be forced (try to save one of their own vs letting him go to keep low profile?) or they may embrace a game-within-the-game concept (why would I do something so obvious?).

There is a litte bit of a "win the crowd" element in the game as well - if you get people to buy into you as someone with a plan then you are likely to avoid lynching. But this is a double-edged sword, since the best laid villager plans often result in a lynched villager and heightened suspicion of the former "leader".

Where I was heading initially with the Day 1 strategy was to see if people had strong thoughts on a good way to act with incomplete information. Below are some of the ideas that have been used in earlier games:
1.) Vote for the guy who hasn't posted - even if he is innocent, he wasn't around to help identify the guilty
2.) Spread votes across a small set of candidates, force them to defend themselves
3.) Random number generator

[SackAttack]

Yar.

[RPI-Fan]

Checking in (villager, of course).

[RPI-Fan]

What about the possibility of not lynching anyone on Day 1?

Haven't really let the consequences run through my mind, but I'm not seeing tons of negatives to it, necessarily.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Here is my list of Players: (If you're not in here and you signed up, tell me)
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49

If noone else is joining, then I'm going to give out roles on Tuesday Morning, we can start with Night (0) on Tuesday Night and Day (1) on Wednesday Morning. I edited the rules a bit, so please read and re-read them. If the 24th through 27th are off, I'm good -- add me.

[McSweeny]

What about the possibility of not lynching anyone on Day 1?

Haven't really let the consequences run through my mind, but I'm not seeing tons of negatives to it, necessarily.

it depends on how many werewolves there are in the game i think. If the odds are good enough it might be worth lynching someone at random. If we have something like a 1 in 10 shot, then we might be better off leaving everyone alive

[hoopsguy]

During the Day Phase, everyone votes to lynch one player. In case of a tie, the player who got his first vote last will be lynched.

I didn't include that in the list of common Day 1 concepts because it didn't apply to this one. There are some games that require a certain number of votes to lynch someone, but it sounds like this one would invoke a lynch even if there was a 1-1 tie with everyone else abstaining.

With that in mind, not voting is generally bad form. Those voting patterns are important information later in the game when running "villager or wolf" scenarios.

[st.cronin]

What is the ratio of wolves to villagers?

[RPI-Fan]

What is the ratio of wolves to villagers?

Unknown, but typically 1:4-ish (so, in this case probably around 3 wolves, 13 players).

[SackAttack]

What is the ratio of wolves to villagers?

anywhere from 1:15 to 7:9. :p

[st.cronin]

If a player is lynched, his Primary Role is revealed, if a Cunning wolf is killed, he will only be viewed as a Villager.


I take it from this that roles are supposed to be secret?

[SackAttack]

I take it from this that roles are supposed to be secret?

Yes, but if you're a wolf, feel free to share!

[Raiders Army]

What about the possibility of not lynching anyone on Day 1?

Haven't really let the consequences run through my mind, but I'm not seeing tons of negatives to it, necessarily.
A big negative is that on Day 2 we're still essentially at Day 1 and the wolves get an extra day to plan and kill someone.

[Schmidty]

I'm here.

[Blade6119]

A big negative is that on Day 2 we're still essentially at Day 1 and the wolves get an extra day to plan and kill someone.

I cant stress enough that a no-lynch is a horrible idea...all it will do is put us a man down and make the game harder(man down from night kill). Even if it is completely random i think we need to lynch someone(You miss 100% of the shots you dont take)

[SirFozzie]

Yo. I'm awake..

[dubb93]

Villager checking in. Hopefully the game goes well b/c I really want to see what Barkeep has up his sleeve for the next game.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Er, anyway, if I didn't make the list of players, I'd be willing to serve as an alternate.

[Barkeep49]

I agree that voting on the first day is essential. I just hope that whoever it is realizes that there is nothing personal involved in it. It sucks, but one shouldn't take offense at it.

[kingfc22]

Late villager checking in.

[Barkeep49]

Oh and lest rumors get started: My daytime availability has recently dropped down dramatically and so I will likely be a first thing in the morning and right before the deadline poster for much of this game.

[dubb93]

Since Barkeep is annoucing his availability. I'll remind everybody that I'm not usually online untill 2-3ish in the afternoon. I know it has gotten me voted off before, I'd like to avoid being voted off for that reason this time around :)

[SirFozzie]

Same here: I work 9 PM-7 AM now, and having oral surgery on Thursday Morning (getting all my wisdom teeth pulled).. so I may not be watching this thread 24/7 :)

[hoopsguy]

Good luck with that Fozzie, had it done a couple of years back and it was not a lot of fun.

I'll have limited availability tomorrow during the day but schedule goes back to normal Wednesday.

[RPI-Fan]

Just to get this on the table now (I was actually going to post this even if others didn't):

-Tied up 6am-9pm tomorrow, will check in tomorrow night.
-Work 6am-3pm Weds, will check in after that.

[SackAttack]

Amusing how paranoid everybody has gotten about first-day votes.

I wonder if that has anything to do with kingfc22 duking the investigator a while back? :p

[McSweeny]

i'll be on around noon-ish all week long, and i'll be on everyone now and then this weekend

[saldana]

shit...i was off the site for a couple days (playing civ4) and i missed the signups!! oh well, i would probably have gotten whacked on day one after what i did last time i played :) good luck everyone, i will be in next time

[Schmidty]

I'm going to be hit-and-miss the next few days, as I have a lot of things going on at home. Just to let everyone know (hoopsguy), I will probably leave my browser open to with this thread displayed, so don't think I'm necessarily there at the moment.

[Blade6119]

Simple game, no? :) Gauging interest. Just post below if you want in.

:Primary Roles: (Each player is guaranteed to one of these roles)
Werewolf - You belong to a pack of werewolves. You may choose to kill one person each night.
Villager - You are a villager, and your sole purpose is to survive.
Seer - You are the seer, and can view the true identity of a man or wolf. Each night you may choose to view the true identity of one player.
Herbalist - You possess a bag of wolfsbane, the deadliest herb known to all wolfkind. Each night, you may choose to protect someone by slipping wolfsbane upon him. You may not choose someone two nights in a row. You may, however, choose yourself.
Duke - You are the Duke, disguised as a petty farmer, as a one-time action you may choose to prevent one person from being lynched and instead have someone else be the target of the lynching.
Witness - As a one-time skill, you may choose to view the killing of an innocent during the night. If noone is killed, then you waste your view.

:Supplementary Roles, Villager/Seer/Herbalist/Duke/Witness: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Cursed - You are cursed, and have been so since birth. If bitten by a werewolf, you will join their ranks. Of course, you will not know that you are cursed until you are bitten by a wolf.
Blessed - You are blessed, and have been so since birth. If bitten by a werewolf, you will be granted a second chance at life. You do not know that you are blessed until bitten by a werewolf... note that this does not save you from lynching.
Cupid - In a previous life, you were Cupid. In the beginning of the game, you may assign two players to be "lovers". You may not choose yourself.

:Supplementaty Roles, Werewolves: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Brutal - You are a vicious wolf, and if lynched, you may choose to bring one person of your choice to the grave with you.
Cunning - You are a deceitful wolf, and if lynched, you will not reveal yourself as a werewolf upon death.

:Supplementary Roles, All: (You may or may not be given these roles, note that there could be one or more of these)
Lover - You are fraternally and eternally bonded with your "lover", upon the death of your lover, you shall die as well. You know who your "lover" is, and vice versa. However, you may not PM each other.

Rules:

There will be two phases, a Day Phase and a Night Phase.

During the Day Phase, everyone votes to lynch one player. In case of a tie, the player who got his first vote last will be lynched.

During the Night Phase, all players with Night actions may choose to do their actions, or do nothing at all. Only one Werewolf will PM me the Werewolves' choice of slaughter, and that Werewolf will do the killing.

Note that a supplementary role may be mixed with a primary role, so we might have a "Seer/Blessed" in the game, or a "Duke/Cursed". The effect of being Cursed is that you lose your primary role and become a werewolf instead.

If a player is lynched, his Primary Role is revealed, if a Cunning wolf is killed, he will only be viewed as a Villager.

Deadlines are still tentative.

Werewolves win if they reach a 1:1 ratio with the villagers. Villagers win if all werewolves are dead.

Players: (If you're not in here and you signed up, tell me)
SackAttack
st.cronin
kingfc22
Raiders Army
Passacaglia
hoopsguy
RPI-Fan
ardent enthusiast
pennywisesb
SnDvls
McSweeny
Schmidty
SirFozzie
dubb93
Barkeep49

Well, im pretty much around most of the time barring classes on monday and wednesday around the deadline might get me killed...

Anyway, anyone have any idea of where to go with the first day? Im a villager and dont have a lover, but i cant reccomend any lover reveal that they have one...from what neon said the only way a lover couple could be villager-warewolf is if the cupid picks them...that would imply the starting couples were all villager villager...thats like a jackpot for wolves, so if you have one dont hint at it or let on about it as the wolves will kill you in a heartbeat.

I think by far the most intersting new addition is the decieving trait for wolves, which means if and when we kill him we will think hes a villager...im deadly afraid of what they might cook up to mess with our minds by sacrificing this guy....

As for villagers, witness should wait a few days in my mind, herbalist needs to be guessing random(use your own discretion on who would be a good target for the wolves...like very active smart players)

Question for neon, if the herbalist sprinkles on a warewolf, does it have any negative effect?

[Neon_Chaos]

Blade: No, it won't.

[SirFozzie]

I think the Cupid picks randomly.. so he (I don't think we have any females) could pair up a villager and a werewolf, or if the person was REALLY lucky.. Werewolf-werewolf.

Go with whatever, just realize that anything over the top/stupid will mark you down the line.

[SackAttack]

That's why I figure there has to be four wolves, Foz.

Because in the event that two werewolves were paired as lovers and one was lynched, the other would die. With two wolves, that ends the game instantly, and with three, that leaves only one. It would be a significant setback for them.

So I gotta figure we're dealing with probably four. That way if the unexpected does happen, there's still two wolves for us to root out.

[kingfc22]

Anyone have a hunch yet?

[Raiders Army]

Anyone have a hunch yet?
I thought there were werewolves only in this game, not any additional monsters like hunchbacks.

[pennywisesb]

Sorry I haven't been around lately, it got crazy at work yesterday and then I didn't really get a chance to get online last night. I should, however, be on and off throughout the day today.

[hoopsguy]

I'm bummed to see that there hasn't been any real conversation up to this point. I realize that first day sucks, but if we don't get any kind of conversation going then we end up 100% random (instead of 80-90% random, maybe?) on our lynch selection. Which makes it easier to hide a vote - huge advantage to wolves.

I'm hoping to be back online later this afternoon for a decent block of time prior to the vote.

As a general note, I know that several of us (me included) posted about availability issues for today and onwards. I would be cautious as the game moves on if people continue to have last-minute issues preventing them from contributing to the conversation. There have been several cases of wolves trying to keep a low-profile by posting about their real life commitments keeping them from contributing as much as they might like. This isn't meant to try and weed out the people who have activities beyond our message board, but make sure to hold people accountable for their votes (or lack thereof) throughout the game. Villagers generally want to play an active role in their team winning, not let the other villagers figure it out for them.

[kingfc22]

Vote McSweeny

Maybe this will start up some conversation.

[hoopsguy]

Vote just to vote or some intuition/reason/unnatural hatred behind it?

[Schmidty]

Yeah, what was the basis of that vote?

[McSweeny]

don't we wait for someone to get eaten first? then lynch someone?

[kingfc22]

Yeah, what was the basis of that vote?
We have NOTHING to go on right now and nobody is going to start talking unless some people start throwing out votes. Maybe a wolf might slip up trying to protect somebody or we'll see some bandwagoning.

I figured a vote, albiet a random one, would start some conversation. That is all.

[Schmidty]

We have NOTHING to go on right now and nobody is going to start talking unless some people start throwing out votes. Maybe a wolf might slip up trying to protect somebody or we'll see some bandwagoning.

I figured a vote, albiet a random one, would start some conversation. That is all.

Well then, I guess you're a brave man. :D

[kingfc22]

Well then, I guess you're a brave man. :D
Or a dead villagerhttp://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raiders Army]

Hmmm...don't know what to make of this. I thought we weren't voting until Wednesday?

[McSweeny]

a werewolf ploy?

[Blade6119]

I doubt highly its a warewolf ploy...if anything its a villager move...it stimulated a lot of talk, so it can only help us. As for wednesdays comment, the deadline isnt until wednesday, but i say if we get going today its not a bad thing...if anything it will effect the night zero actions coming tonight, which could tell us something...

[Raiders Army]

I doubt highly its a warewolf ploy...if anything its a villager move...it stimulated a lot of talk, so it can only help us. As for wednesdays comment, the deadline isnt until wednesday, but i say if we get going today its not a bad thing...if anything it will effect the night zero actions coming tonight, which could tell us something...
Good call on affecting night actions, especially with Cupid making the move tonight.

I would tend to agree that it is not a werewolf ploy, but it would be a great ploy to have a werewolf do it so that when a villager is killed that person will still look somewhat innocent.

[Blade6119]

Ill put my neck on the line too, as i can change up until tomorrow after noon if anything drastic comes along

Vote Passacaglia

[Schmidty]

I tend to think that only a villager would put their neck on the line the first day, since they really have nothing to lose (in terms of game strategy).

[Raiders Army]

Do you guys (kingfc22 and Blade6119) have any particular reasons why you've voted for whom you voted?

[Blade6119]

Do you guys (kingfc22 and Blade6119) have any particular reasons why you've voted for whom you voted?

Two reasons really, not much behind either
1.Stimulate either conversation or night action
2.Pass usually is very quiet and doesnt tend to help too much in my mind...not the quiet rule of old of just who hsnt posted yet, but more of a whos generally quiet...if we have to kill someone randomly, id rather kill a quiet one then an active one. pass is around a lot, i just dont remember him posting all that often in past games. In general we have a pretty active group which should be fun.

[Blade6119]

dola, i honestly would have voted for mcsweeney on those grounds first, but im not going to start a bandwagon and give the wolves that out

[Raiders Army]

Gotcha. I don't remember mcsweeney playing before, but it may be that my memory isn't right.

[Blade6119]

Gotcha. I don't remember mcsweeney playing before, but it may be that my memory isn't right.

I cant say on him, but i do know when asked about new blood in this game only st. cronin said he was...hence why im assuming he has played at least one before. St. Cronin gets a bye in my book, as any new player does for the first round at least

[McSweeny]

i played in one of the early rounds... maybe the first or second?

[Blade6119]

thank you for the clarification mcsweeney...that would be why i dont remember you, as i missed the first few games...that makes me happier with pass for now

[dubb93]

OK, who the hell is Flounder and why is he viewing this thread?

[Blade6119]

OK, who the hell is Flounder and why is he viewing this thread?

LOL, priceless...its seems too early for wolves to already be using fake names to view the thread....more then likely just someone new to the board...or is dubb trying to trick us ;) LYNCH HIM!!!!! :mad: :mad:

[Raiders Army]

i played in one of the early rounds... maybe the first or second?
I think I missed the first couple of go-arounds so that's probably why I don't remember. :)

[dubb93]

LOL, priceless...its seems too early for wolves to already be using fake names to view the thread....more then likely just someone new to the board...or is dubb trying to trick us ;) LYNCH HIM!!!!! :mad: :mad:

I actually went though and tried to match up his birthdate on his profile with everyone else's in the game but didn't find a match.

[Blade6119]

I actually went though and tried to match up his birthdate on his profile with everyone else's in the game but didn't find a match.

wow, thats hardcore investigating...im now honestly afraid for my life and im a villager...i swear if some wolf has my birthday ill be pissed

[Raiders Army]

wow, thats hardcore investigating...im now honestly afraid for my life and im a villager...i swear if some wolf has my birthday ill be pissed
Or it would be simple enough to just switch that birthday to your birthday.

[Blade6119]

Or it would be simple enough to just switch that birthday to your birthday.

I need to shut up for awhile, dont i? Im like asking to be framed right now...

[SirFozzie]

Blade: It's not like we NEED a reason to hang you or anything.. ;)

Plenty of time to go till deadline..

Let's see.. as a starter vote..

VOTE SNDVLS

Haven't seen him post in here yet.. not good if you're trying to avoid attention.. maybe this will bring him out of the shell.

Plus.. never trust anyone who took a shortcut to their username by removing all the vowels from their name :P

[pennywisesb]

Plus.. never trust anyone who took a shortcut to their username by removing all the vowels from their name :P

LMAO. I hate first day votes because there is absolutely nothing to go on. I don't feel comfortable throwing a vote out yet, so I'm gonna hold off and see if anyone slips up....

[hoopsguy]

I'm very amused at Dubb going through the profiles of everyone here to match them up with our mystery guest Flounder.

As far as initial votes go, I'm mildly surprised that Blade has avoided both an initial vote and a bandwagon already. From the games I've observed, it would be an upset for him to survive three days of conversation prior to lynch #1.

I'll cast a vote for Ardent Enthusiast. I have very little reason for it. I don't think that I've got much history, positive or negative, with him from other games I've played and I'm trying to avoid letting those type of interactions guide my early actions. Like everyone else I'm very open to adopting a non-random vote if someone can present an argument.

[Barkeep49]

I'm not sure if I'm missed the deadline (went into work and ended up having to help with an emergency instead of being able to come here. What does this work think my priority is?), but I think that dubb's attempt to match-up Flounder is the sort of harmless attempt to appear on the villager's side while not actually helping. Reminds me of something I would do as a wolf.

Vote dubb

[Barkeep49]

Ok upon more careful reading I realized that I have not missed anything yet thankfully.

[flounder]

I just wanted to post to say that I'm not in the game. I'm just intrigued by the game and wanted to watch one before I tried to play in one.

If I messed things up by lurking I apologize.

[Barkeep49]

I just wanted to post to say that I'm not in the game. I'm just intrigued by the game and wanted to watch one before I tried to play in one.

If I messed things up by lurking I apologize.
Messing things up? Not at all! You've added to the game with-out posting! I hope to see you join us in a game in the future.

[SackAttack]

Vote Ned Colletti

*sob*

[kingfc22]

I hope flounder wins this WW game.

[RPI-Fan]

I think Blade's post asking Neon for clarifications is very suspicious, but I don't want to spread the votes around right now. Whether or not he's a wolf, I like his reasoning on his vote.

Vote Passacaglia

[st.cronin]

I think Blade's post asking Neon for clarifications is very suspicious, but I don't want to spread the votes around right now. Whether or not he's a wolf, I like his reasoning on his vote.

Vote Passacaglia

Thirded.

[RPI-Fan]

Thirded.

If you want to vote for Passacaglia, make sure you type it and bold it yourself (so there is no doubt).

If you're simply agreeing with my analysis, well then I agree too.;)

[st.cronin]

If you want to vote for Passacaglia, make sure you type it and bold it yourself (so there is no doubt).

If you're simply agreeing with my analysis, well then I agree too.;)


You mean like this?

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

I'm still not entirely sure what I'm doing, apparently.

[Barkeep49]

After triple checking the tread I haven't seen the reason for voting Passacaglia. Can one of you three fill me in?

(And St. Cronin your vote now is in the perfect form)

[Neon_Chaos]

All your lives of living in this small village, there has been a rumour that werewolves live among you. Of course, you choose to discard this folktale and continue on with your lives.

However, one fateful day, a weary traveler arrived into your little Italian village. He had the looks of a war-worn man, it seems that he has been through many battles... not of the physical side, but of the supernatural. You give him food and shelter... and he tells you of his exploits. Several bottles of wine later, you soon find out that he is a Werewolf Hunter, and that he has come here because he has heard of tales of Werewolves near your village. You shrug off his confession as nothing more but a tall tale.

The next morning, you find his mangled body, the flesh torn from the bone and blood everywhere. You all look at each other with fear. You know that the only way to resolve this is through the ancient tradition... of lynching! One man will die at the end of this day, you only pray that it is not you.

Neon Chaos has been killed by the Werewolves!
Night (0) is over, Day (1) has begun!

I would just like to remind everyone:

When voting, kindly do so in bold and all caps.:

VOTE NEON_CHAOS

to unvote, the same applies.

UNVOTE NEON_CHAOS

Votes that are not in this format will NOT be recognized.

That said... Day 1 begins NOW. Only the votes made after this post will be counted.

Happy Wolf-Hunting.

[SirFozzie]

Ok.. to make it official..

VOTE SNDVLS

[Schmidty]

I'm bummed to see that there hasn't been any real conversation up to this point. I realize that first day sucks, but if we don't get any kind of conversation going then we end up 100% random (instead of 80-90% random, maybe?) on our lynch selection. Which makes it easier to hide a vote - huge advantage to wolves.

I'm hoping to be back online later this afternoon for a decent block of time prior to the vote.

As a general note, I know that several of us (me included) posted about availability issues for today and onwards. I would be cautious as the game moves on if people continue to have last-minute issues preventing them from contributing to the conversation. There have been several cases of wolves trying to keep a low-profile by posting about their real life commitments keeping them from contributing as much as they might like. This isn't meant to try and weed out the people who have activities beyond our message board, but make sure to hold people accountable for their votes (or lack thereof) throughout the game. Villagers generally want to play an active role in their team winning, not let the other villagers figure it out for them.

I've never trusted you, and I don't trust you now. You talk a lot, and I think you're one of the smartest guys here, but this time I think there's something fishy.

If anyone knows me in these games, I ALWAYS try to blend in because I'm an automatic target it seems. This time, I feel absolutely sure that hoopsguy is acting strange. I'll probably regret this, but I don't care. He's probably one of the best, most subtle guys here, but I thinks he's rotten this time.

[Poli]

Vote Pennywiseb

No rhyme or reason. Not going to sit around, not going to do it. Wouldn't be prudent, not at this time, not at this juncture.

[dubb93]

BAH!, you can't even recognize someone trying to help on day 1 when it slaps you in the face Barkeep. I had never seen the name before and it kinda seemed like a joke name someone would create for exactly this kind of reason. Lurking without being discovered, since lurking in these threads has been known to get people voted out in the past. I was just hoping to hit something on day one and I didn't. No need to vote for me for just trying to help.

[st.cronin]

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

[Schmidty]

Crap. As much as I hate to do this, I'm going to have to leave the game (if there's a replacement), as my wife is going to have to leave tomorrow for the week. We have a 3 year-old daughter, and I just can't leave her alone. I'll be around, just not long enough to consistently be of use to this game.

Sorry guys. :(

[Neon_Chaos]

Sad to see Schmidty go. :( Mr. Wednesday has been brought in as Schmidty's replacement. Have fun.

[RPI-Fan]

Clearing my vote up...

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

Will certainly be checking in tomorrow afternoon to post further thoughts and possibly change my vote...

[RPI-Fan]

After triple checking the tread I haven't seen the reason for voting Passacaglia. Can one of you three fill me in?

(And St. Cronin your vote now is in the perfect form)

My reason is (like Blade said):

Pass has been quiet which might ever so slightly increase his chances of being a wolf. Moreover, he never really adds much to the games positive or negative, so I guess if we're taking a shot in the dark, I'd rather have it be someone like Passacaglia who wasn't going to be breaking down any doors anyways (based on past games, that is, of course).

[dubb93]

I'd don't see the reasoning on the Pass vote either. So instead of waiting around I'll throw my vote out there and see where this goes.

Vote Barkeep49

I tried to help out with the Flounder thing although it didn't go anywhere and explained myself and how silly it is to vote someone trying to help on day one and you haven't budged yet.

[kingfc22]

Vote McSweeny

Don't see any reason to hop on any bandwagon right now.

[McSweeny]

does a vote not count if the name is spelled incorrectly? :)

[kingfc22]

does a vote not count if the name is spelled incorrectly? :)
Heh. fixed.

[RPI-Fan]

Guys: I think N_C wanted the votes in ALL CAPS... just don't want a lot of whining or whatever tomorrow.

[hoopsguy]

Schmidty, sorry to see you have to bow out, even if you are blowing heat in my direction to start this game off.

I know we had squared off as villagers once in the past - this was the exact kind of thing that I had alluded to earlier when I voted for AE prior to votes counting.

I do talk a lot in these games. But while I try to be subtle at times I don't think that I'm particularly indirect once there is some material to dissect in later days. If I've earned anyone's distrust in my five or so posts up to this point then I hope I have the opportunity to address these concerns in the days to come.

Now, I have an out-of-game concern - my wife's grandmother passed last night. The services/funeral are Thursday. So I'll be basically MIA for a day. On the one hand I'm kind of amused that I'm finding myself in a position of posting about multiple out-of-game issues distracting me from playing - behavior I indicated could be a pointer to a wolf. But on the other hand I do need to take care of my wife and be available for her family so I'm going to do that without worrying too much about werewolf. I promise to be on especially paranoid behavior upon my return Friday if I'm not lynched or eaten by that time.

[dubb93]

since I'm not sure I'm allowed to edit posts with a vote in them

Unvote Barkeep49

VOTE BARKEEP49

[Blade6119]

to reiterate my vote from yesterday to make it count,

Vote Pass

[SackAttack]

Since our previous votes don't count ;)

VOTE HOOPSGUY

If the dude's a wolf laying cover, he needs to go.
If his wife's grandmother really did pass, he needs to be able to be there for his wife and her family without feeling obligated to a WW game.

Either way, it's a win/win vote from where I'm sitting. Either it helps him focus on more important things, or it outs a wolf!

[Mr. Wednesday]

Now that I'm officially in the game, I can offer my observation on the whole posting about distractions --

I think this idea about holding them against people as an indication of being a baddie is ridiculous. We have no reason to think that it's any more an indication of being a wolf or not being a wolf.

I don't necessarily have a problem with taking cracks at people who won't reliably participate solely on that basis, but I don't like making them as wolves.

[Mr. Wednesday]

As usual, the day 1 vote will be a crapshoot. We can blather about looking for patterns that suggest a wolf, but I doubt any such will be evident -- the best we can hope for is that we'll manage to do something today that trips someone up down the road.

I think that hoops has generally had something to offer in the past, so I'm not inclined to vote him, although I think SackAttack does make a reasonable argument. Similarly for barkeep, but I see why dubb is voting for him. I'm tired of gunning for ardent off the bat, so no go there. Pass plays Battrick, so that gets him a day one pass from me barring a surprising revelation. :)

Out of the remainder, I can't say that anybody really jumps out at me. Or rather, generally the ones that jump out are positive rather than negative.

VOTE PENNYWISESB

This is not from ardent's random number generator, but I wouldn't say it's particularly more firmly grounded. I may change my mind tomorrow.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, and dang, I missed ardent's vote. I'm not trying to start a bandwagon here. :o

UNVOTE PENNYWISESB

[Barkeep49]

I'm willing to get behind the vote for the quiet guy. The reasoning is this: even if he/she/it is a villager they're not adding anything to our efforts.

VOTE PASSACAGALIA

If Pass shows up before the vote deadline with a good reason this will be changed.

[hoopsguy]

VOTE HOOPSGUY

If his wife's grandmother really did pass, he needs to be able to be there for his wife and her family without feeling obligated to a WW game.


If I was going to be gone for more than a day then I work with Neon to find a replacement player for me at this stage out of consideration for everyone else participating in the game. Generally it is not good for the game when people aren't able to be active participants.

In terms of helping my wife to grieve, the grandmother has been afflicted with Alzheimers since before we started dating over eight years ago. She has been in a nursing home that entire time. There have been other close calls before this week. In short, everyone involved has had a long time to prepare for this and the vast majority of people involved think that this was for the best and that there was no quality of life remaining anymore. It is was her other grandmother, with whom she has maintained a close relationship, then I would also back out of the game to take care of Mrs. Hoopsguy because she would be a basket case.

Sorry for the semi-threadjack. I really don't want to have a number of posts on this topic and end up distracting from the game. But I'm not particularly enamored with the idea of ending up with votes because people want to help me focus on my personal life instead of participating in virtual lynchings :eek:

[Raiders Army]

Hmmm...a lot of activity happened while I was offline. I guess I'll go with the group.

VOTE PASSACAGALIA

[Blade6119]

As far as initial votes go, I'm mildly surprised that Blade has avoided both an initial vote and a bandwagon already. From the games I've observed, it would be an upset for him to survive three days of conversation prior to lynch #1.

Ironically, it has been just the opposite...so far my vote started a bandwagon to get someone else killed...sorry to dissapoint you at this point in the vote hoops :(

[hoopsguy]

Not upset about it at all, unless you are a wolf in which case I will be very upset about it at some later date. But you have been a lightning rod for discussion, if not votes, in just about every game you and I have played together. And some other games where I just read along instead of participating.

[Raiders Army]

From the things that he's said, I think he's probably on the side of angels this time (unless he's the cursed and gets converted). Just a feeling I have based upon his comments on the game, etc.

[SnDvls]

Haven't seen him post in here yet.. not good if you're trying to avoid attention.. maybe this will bring him out of the shell.

Plus.. never trust anyone who took a shortcut to their username by removing all the vowels from their name :P


you must have missed my post saying I was here (pg 2 or late on 1 don't recall which)

so to toss it back to you

Vote SirFozzie

[SnDvls]

VOTE SIRFOZZIE

per Neon's request to make it official

[Neon_Chaos]

Just to inform everyone. I live halfway around the world and I'll make it to work at about 10:30-11:00 AM +8 GMT, so expect me to count the votes at about 9:30-10:00 PM EST, therefore I am moving voting deadline to 9:00 PM EST.

[Mr. Wednesday]

As usual, this vote is basically founded on nothing, but I'm going to cast it anyway. McSweeny has been quieter than I'd like and he's not one of the ones that I'd prefer to leave alive for one day, at least, so,
VOTE MCSWEENY

[hoopsguy]

Very early to have any kind of circles of trust, but I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Mr. W is unlikely to be a wolf. I don't think I have seen a game yet where someone dropped from the game in the role of a bad guy - first time for everything but I'll start with this premise until I have a reason to think otherwise.

I'll stick with my vote from yesterday at this point - VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST for no good reason other than I think it makes sense to vote for someone at this point rather than to wait until end of day and bandwagon someone. It also gives him time to respond if he feels the need to do so. AE has been pretty quiet so far this game, which doesn't necessarily fit with my impressions of him from past games. Feels like a reach, but anything on Day 1 is a reach.

[McSweeny]

well i guess i'll have to jump on the bandwaggon in an effort to preserve my self

VOTE PASSACAGALIA

[Poli]

I'll stick with my vote from yesterday at this point - VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST for no good reason other than I think it makes sense to vote for someone at this point rather than to wait until end of day and bandwagon someone. It also gives him time to respond if he feels the need to do so. AE has been pretty quiet so far this game, which doesn't necessarily fit with my impressions of him from past games. Feels like a reach, but anything on Day 1 is a reach.
Well, I'm clean. I'm a good guy. I've been quiet because I'm in the process of moving from the barracks to an apartment. I don't exactly have the internet up and running in my room, but my roommate does.

I understand you have to vote someone, but I'm definitely a good guy.

[pennywisesb]

VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST

Right back at yah buddy.

Alot has happened since I was last online, but it seems as though everyone is bandwagoning on Pass which makes me alittle suspicious since he hasn't really done anything to deserve it. Now it seems the wolves have a perfect excuse to hide in the Pass vote.....Just a thought.

[Poli]

VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST

Right back at yah buddy.

Alot has happened since I was last online, but it seems as though everyone is bandwagoning on Pass which makes me alittle suspicious since he hasn't really done anything to deserve it. Now it seems the wolves have a perfect excuse to hide in the Pass vote.....Just a thought.Understandable...hope this doesn't come back on me, though.

[Raiders Army]

Vote count? I gotta finish this report.

[hoopsguy]

Here is what I have for votes so far:
SnDvls - SirFozzie
Pennywise - Ardent
Passacaglia - St Cronin, RPI-Fan, Blade6119, Barkeep, RaidersArmy, McSweeny
Barkeep - Dub
McSweeny - Kingfc, Mr Wednesday
Hoopsguy - SackAttack
SirFozzie - SnDvls
Ardent Enthusiast - Hoopsguy, Pennywise

I believe there are a couple of non-votes but I haven't tracked those at this time.

[dubb93]

Well, since barkeep appears to have removed the vote for me I'll return the favor.

UNVOTE BARKEEP49

Also, I hate 1 horse bandwagons so I'll try an make this a little close with my vote.

VOTE MCSWEENY

[Passacaglia]

Hey all, sorry I haven't been on. Been a bit busy lately.

To respond to "usually being quiet in games" -- I'm still pretty new to the whole werewolf thing, and that's the best explanation I can give!

As for this game, let's roll. I'm the herbalist. Saying this will probably get me a lynching, but at least it will do something to help us villagers.

[RPI-Fan]

Hey all, sorry I haven't been on. Been a bit busy lately.

To respond to "usually being quiet in games" -- I'm still pretty new to the whole werewolf thing, and that's the best explanation I can give!

As for this game, let's roll. I'm the herbalist. Saying this will probably get me a lynching, but at least it will do something to help us villagers.

Uh, saying that does us NO good.

There are three scenarios I see based on this post:

1) You actually are the herbalist, and instead of trying to make a smart play to avoid being lynched are trying to take the easy way out, and hurting the team majorly in the process.

2) You're a wolf, trying a desparation play as the herbalist. If so, just how dumb do you think we are? :rolleyes:

3) You're not a wolf, pretending to be the herbalist. This wouldn't be an awful play, but trying something so opaque early on is just not a good move.

You're very suspicious to me, and if you are the herbalist you are really hurting the team by coming out, anyways.

My vote stands.

[dubb93]

As for this game, let's roll. I'm the herbalist. Saying this will probably get me a lynching, but at least it will do something to help us villagers.

Well assuming you are telling the truth this helps you today, but doesn't help the villagers b/c you will be eaten b/f you can protect anyone important. You SHOULD have just posted since at least some of your voters said they may remove your vote if you posted. Then later if it still looked bad dropped this bombshell on us.

[hoopsguy]

Well this ups the ante for day one - if Pass is the herbalist then the cat-and-mouse game of who to protect begins tonight in earnest. Protect self tonight or tomorrow? What would the wolves think the herbalist will do?

My thoughts - expected move would be to protect yourself if there is not another high-profile role reveal tonight. But if they know that you are protecting yourself then everyone else is wide open. So I would declare that I'm not protecting myself, daring them to come and get me tonight. And then flip a coin to determine if you do self-protect or go with someone else.

I would think that if I was the herbalist and was fearing that I would be lynched that I would have tried to avoid revealing this information until a little later in the afternoon. And only after failing to convince people not to keep their Day 1 random votes on me. But I would rather have the herbalist out in the open rather than swinging from a rope at the end of the day.

[RPI-Fan]

Well this ups the ante for day one - if Pass is the herbalist then the cat-and-mouse game of who to protect begins tonight in earnest. Protect self tonight or tomorrow? What would the wolves think the herbalist will do?

My thoughts - expected move would be to protect yourself if there is not another high-profile role reveal tonight. But if they know that you are protecting yourself then everyone else is wide open. So I would declare that I'm not protecting myself, daring them to come and get me tonight. And then flip a coin to determine if you do self-protect or go with someone else.

I would think that if I was the herbalist and was fearing that I would be lynched that I would have tried to avoid revealing this information until a little later in the afternoon. And only after failing to convince people not to keep their Day 1 random votes on me. But I would rather have the herbalist out in the open rather than swinging from a rope at the end of the day.

Why assume he's telling the truth? I think you're too wise to take that kind of remark at face value.

[Raiders Army]

That is a very convenient reveal since you claim you are the herbalist. I'll echo the other guys' thoughts that you revealed yourself too early if it's true.

It's very convenient in the fact that if you are a wolf, you can arrange to kill someone else and just say you were protecting yourself. The chances are that you will not pick the wolfs' target anyhow (if you're human) plus there's the fact that you aren't their prime target....the seer is.

I just think it's a little too coincidental that you look like your head is in the noose and now you reveal you are the herbalist...about the only role that could save you.

[Blade6119]

I agree with hoops, but the question still comes down to whether he is the herbalist or not...its a convenient time for a role reveal...if he is, then we have to work to save him...if not i would lean towards wolf..though it could be a sick ploy by a villager

[Raiders Army]

Why assume he's telling the truth? I think you're too wise to take that kind of remark at face value.
Or unless they're in it together.

[McSweeny]

well now things are starting to get good aren't they?

[hoopsguy]

I don't take it 100% at face value. But I'm not going to switch my vote today to the guy who called herbalist. I don't like the risk/reward of hanging Pass on Day 1 at this moment.

Here is the next thought - if someone else is the herbalist should they come forward and condemn Pass directly or try to be subtle about it? I think a one-to-one trade is probably worth it, but it would be even better to succeed in guiding the group to hang the fake herbalist while maintaining their secrecy. I think this would be very hard to do but would stand up and applaud at the end of the game if someone does pull that off.

Anyways, the thoughts you quoted were based on Pass as the herbalist. At this point they were intended to make the best of a less-than-optimal situation.

[SnDvls]

wow what a bomb to drop. I don't really know what to add other than what's been said. We've seen this play out both ways in too many games.

[Blade6119]

well now things are starting to get good aren't they?

So my initial vote for pass i stated was to start some conversation worked?? :)

[SackAttack]

The other side of it, guys, is he says he's still pretty new to Werewolf.

It's possible that he didn't think through the negative ramifications of his reveal. I think it's too early, but if you're en route to getting railroaded for having been "quiet," why sit on the info and risk the team losing the herbalist on day one?

[SackAttack]

Dola,

Devil's advocate: we wouldn't even know if he WERE just a villager making a sick ploy, since the cunning wolf would show up as a villager. What kind of a play would that be, to be a wolf, know that you won't be revealed as such until all of your companions are dead, and make a play like this to try and keep yourself alive?

[RPI-Fan]

The other side of it, guys, is he says he's still pretty new to Werewolf.

It's possible that he didn't think through the negative ramifications of his reveal. I think it's too early, but if you're en route to getting railroaded for having been "quiet," why sit on the info and risk the team losing the herbalist on day one?

Even if he's telling the truth, his dumbass play does us no good now. He'll have to protect himself tonight, and then he'll die tomorrow having protected nobody.

[Passacaglia]

there's the fact that you aren't their prime target....the seer is.

So if that's the case, why is it such a big deal that I reveal it now? If I were the seer, I wouldn't reveal it now. But as the herbalist, all I can do is protect someone -- and since I don't even know who the villagers are, it's not even likely that I'll save anyone. The best thing, in my mind, that this position is good for, is to reveal it, and get things moving.

For those who don't believe me...well, if I'm not the herbalist, tell me who is.

[SnDvls]

wow 8 of 15 players on now, that's pretty good.

[SackAttack]

Even if he's telling the truth, his dumbass play does us no good now. He'll have to protect himself tonight, and then he'll die tomorrow having protected nobody.

That's true. I'm just saying the reveal isn't necessarily a wolf play, it could just be inexperience talking.

[RPI-Fan]

Dola,

Devil's advocate: we wouldn't even know if he WERE just a villager making a sick ploy, since the cunning wolf would show up as a villager. What kind of a play would that be, to be a wolf, know that you won't be revealed as such until all of your companions are dead, and make a play like this to try and keep yourself alive?

An ACTUAL villager making a fake herbalist play this early would be so monumentally stupid that I'm willing to rule it out at this point. Therefore, if he shows up as a regular villager I'm willing to call that equal to him being a wolf.

[Blade6119]

I don't take it 100% at face value. But I'm not going to switch my vote today to the guy who called herbalist. I don't like the risk/reward of hanging Pass on Day 1 at this moment.

Here is the next thought - if someone else is the herbalist should they come forward and condemn Pass directly or try to be subtle about it? I think a one-to-one trade is probably worth it, but it would be even better to succeed in guiding the group to hang the fake herbalist while maintaining their secrecy. I think this would be very hard to do but would stand up and applaud at the end of the game if someone does pull that off.

Anyways, the thoughts you quoted were based on Pass as the herbalist. At this point they were intended to make the best of a less-than-optimal situation.

What happens with your one on one trade if pass is a villager trying to save his own hide by claiming to be more then he is?? Then its 2-0

[RPI-Fan]

So if that's the case, why is it such a big deal that I reveal it now? If I were the seer, I wouldn't reveal it now. But as the herbalist, all I can do is protect someone -- and since I don't even know who the villagers are, it's not even likely that I'll save anyone. The best thing, in my mind, that this position is good for, is to reveal it, and get things moving.

For those who don't believe me...well, if I'm not the herbalist, tell me who is.

What the hell don't you get? If you managed to keep yourself alive for just a couple days you become EXTREMELY valuable!!!

edit: Assuming you're telling the truth, of course. (which I don't think you are)

[Passacaglia]

Yeah, I can't imagine myself being a villager, but not the herbalist. Whatever you may think if my play, please, for my self-respect, leave that one out! :P

[Blade6119]

The other side of it, guys, is he says he's still pretty new to Werewolf.

It's possible that he didn't think through the negative ramifications of his reveal. I think it's too early, but if you're en route to getting railroaded for having been "quiet," why sit on the info and risk the team losing the herbalist on day one?

Pass has played in at least 3 games with me if memory serves me....hes not new

[SackAttack]

An ACTUAL villager making a fake herbalist play this early would be so monumentally stupid that I'm willing to rule it out at this point. Therefore, if he shows up as a regular villager I'm willing to call that equal to him being a wolf.

If it weren't for the fact that a bandwagon is rolling, I might agree about its monumental stupidity.

How else can you really defend on a day one vote? Somebody has to get lynched, and there just isn't a body of evidence to shield yourself with.

On balance, though, unless he's a wolf I think it's just a clumsy attempt by a newcomer to find his feet.

[SackAttack]

Pass has played in at least 3 games with me if memory serves me....hes not new

I'm just goin' by what he said in his defense post.

[Passacaglia]

Pass has played in at least 3 games with me if memory serves me....hes not new

3 games is true. Although, they've been pretty crazy games. One involved time travel, and another one had some other loopy concept that I don't remember. For what it's worth.

[Blade6119]

I'm just goin' by what he said in his defense post.

Well take into consideration that that part of the defense post isnt true...whether or not the rest is i dont know

[McSweeny]

well let's see

if pass is a werewolf, lynching him is a great thing

if he is the herbalist he's now pretty much useless and will be picked off by the wolves pretty quickly

if he's a villager just trying to save himself... well i'm not sure what to think about that possibility


anyway, it seems lynching him at this point wouldn't be such a terrible thing

[SnDvls]

3 games is true. Although, they've been pretty crazy games. One involved time travel, and another one had some other loopy concept that I don't remember. For what it's worth.


ya, don't count my time travel game it was a little screwy anyhow with a massive set of rules. even the most experienced player was lost in that one. :) sorry for that guys.

[RPI-Fan]

3 games is true. Although, they've been pretty crazy games. One involved time travel, and another one had some other loopy concept that I don't remember. For what it's worth.

You were also involved late in a game, IIRC, where the doctor/herbalist basically won the villagers the game. I don't buy any of your story.

[Passacaglia]

3 games is true. Although, they've been pretty crazy games. One involved time travel, and another one had some other loopy concept that I don't remember. For what it's worth.

That said...I'm not saying you should treat me with kid gloves or anything! I think you should believe me, as long as no one else claims to be the herbalist! If someone does claim it, there's a decision to be made. But don't let the wolves get the herbalist without showing themselves!

[Passacaglia]

ya, don't count my time travel game it was a little screwy anyhow with a massive set of rules. even the most experienced player was lost in that one. :) sorry for that guys.

No apology necessary...it was a fun game, even if confusing!

[Passacaglia]

You were also involved late in a game, IIRC, where the doctor/herbalist basically won the villagers the game. I don't buy any of your story.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me. It was the spawn game.

[RPI-Fan]

well let's see

if pass is a werewolf, lynching him is a great thing

if he is the herbalist he's now pretty much useless and will be picked off by the wolves pretty quickly

if he's a villager just trying to save himself... well i'm not sure what to think about that possibility


anyway, it seems lynching him at this point wouldn't be such a terrible thing

Exactly. The positives he can offer (if he is the herbalist) at this point are negligible, so we'll say zero. The odds of this, we'll say, are 70% (VERY generous, I think).

If he's a regular villager, his value is pretty solid. We'll say the odds of this are 5%.

If he's a wolf, it's obviously a huge positive for us to kill him. We'll say the odds of this are 25% (intuitively).

A basic expected value calculation tells us it is by far the correct play to lynch Pass here, without ANY doubt it in my mind whatsoever.

Off the top of my head, it's about a 20 times better play to lynch him than anyone else.

[RPI-Fan]

Yeah, thanks for reminding me. It was the spawn game.

No, the one where the wolves forfeited (after the villagers had them cornered anyways).

[hoopsguy]

Blade, here is how I would see the trade scenario working:

1.) Pass is the herbalist, wolf decides to claim herbalist and see if he can remove herbalist from game.
- Hang Pass (herbalist), reveal indicates he is herbalist, and wolf is next
- Hang 2nd herbalist, reveal indicates he is herbalist, Pass is next
- There are two herbalists?
Assuming that there is only one herbalist (I think this is pretty safe assumption) then I don't think there is much reward in this play for the wolves. They are already short numbers at the start of a WW game, too early for them to swap even if it is a key role.

2.) Pass is herbalist, is unchallenged today
- We collectively believe him, lynch someone else. At some point we have to ultimately decide if we believe him or not ...
- Real herbalist tries to lead a movement against Pass without revealing he is herbalist, we hang Pass and he is revealed to be a wolf. The crowd goes wild.

3.) Pass is herbalist, another villager claims to be herbalist
- we hang both, are down 2-0
- we condemn 2nd person claiming to be herbalist even more than first person
- or one of them was the cunning wolf, although the cunning wolf trading himself at this point makes very little sense to me

Blade, let me know if I'm missing anything in terms of a 2-0 scenario. I just don't see where anyone who IS NOT THE HERBALIST challenges Passacaglia today. And this is not advocating that the unknown herbalist should challenge the wolf Passacaglia if they think they can keep the bandwagon on Pass without having to make the reveal. I don't see us being down 2-0 based on a 2nd herbalist reveal, but maybe I'm missing something.

[RPI-Fan]

That said...I'm not saying you should treat me with kid gloves or anything! I think you should believe me, as long as no one else claims to be the herbalist! If someone does claim it, there's a decision to be made. But don't let the wolves get the herbalist without showing themselves!

Guys, he's a wolf trying to get the herbalist to show himself.

Herbalist: Pleased don't hint to your identity today!!!

WOLF!

[Passacaglia]

For the record, when the lynch happens, I'd like someone to make a note that RPI-Fan was by far the most against me.

[RPI-Fan]

For the record, when the lynch happens, I'd like someone to make a note that RPI-Fan was by far the most against me.

I'm sure your wolf friends will take note of this when thinking about who to eat tonight.

[Blade6119]

Hoops, the only other scenario i think of, and the one i though of orgianally, is if pass is a villager, someone else claims to be herbalist, we kill pass and see he was a villager so the outlash gets the actual herbalist killed the next day thinking hes a wolf

[McSweeny]

Hoops, the only other scenario i think of, and the one i though of orgianally, is if pass is a villager, someone else claims to be herbalist, we kill pass and see he was a villager so the outlash gets the actual herbalist killed the next day thinking hes a wolf

which is why the real herbalist should keep his mouth firmly shut

[Passacaglia]

Seriously, I am not THAT stupid that I would claim to be the herbalist if I were a normal villager. That would be a pretty obvious loss of two villagers and no wolves. I'm either the herbalist trying to save myself or out a werewolf, or I'm a werewolf trying to out the herbalist. Keep it to that.

[hoopsguy]

Fair enough - I wasn't willing to assume that a villager would value self-preservation above team success. But you are correct in indicating that this may not be a universal set of ethics.

One more question: do people generally think we are better off without Passacaglia at this point even if he is the herbalist? The herbalist is a significant weapon against the wolves. Like or hate his play up to this point, if he is in fact the herbalist then he does have the ability to protect tonight if we don't lynch him. And repeat every night that he stays alive.

Another way of asking the same question - are people optimistic about our chances of rooting out three wolves without a herbalist and with three sets of lovers dying in tandem?

Finally, why do I have the feeling that I'm walking down the same path I did defending the wolf digamma a few games back (was that Village of the Damned?) and having to defend myself like crazy for the rest of the game?

If the group is satisfied with this course of action, and feels like the above points are not applicable/salient/whatever then I'll join in the bandwagon. AE is certainly not my leading suspect at this point.

[Blade6119]

Fair enough - I wasn't willing to assume that a villager would value self-preservation above team success. But you are correct in indicating that this may not be a universal set of ethics.

One more question: do people generally think we are better off without Passacaglia at this point even if he is the herbalist? The herbalist is a significant weapon against the wolves. Like or hate his play up to this point, if he is in fact the herbalist then he does have the ability to protect tonight if we don't lynch him. And repeat every night that he stays alive.

Another way of asking the same question - are people optimistic about our chances of rooting out three wolves without a herbalist and with three sets of lovers dying in tandem?

Finally, why do I have the feeling that I'm walking down the same path I did defending the wolf digamma a few games back (was that Village of the Damned?) and having to defend myself like crazy for the rest of the game?

If the group is satisfied with this course of action, and feels like the above points are not applicable/salient/whatever then I'll join in the bandwagon. AE is certainly not my leading suspect at this point.
We dont currently need your vote on the bandwagon, and for historical purposes later in the game stay where you are so it can be remembered...i think the group consensus is hes expedable...do i think so, maybe not...but i dont trust the fake role reveal...but if he turns out to be good i think the seer needs to look at RPI who has been pushing heavily to get the herbalist lynched

[McSweeny]

the thing is, Pass can protect himself tonight. The wolves will figure that's what he'll do and they'll pick someone else off. After that, Pass has to protect someone else and the wolves will take him out then.

in other words, pass as a herbalist is really of no value to us

[McSweeny]

We dont currently need your vote on the bandwagon, and for historical purposes later in the game stay where you are so it can be remembered...i think the group consensus is hes expedable...do i think so, maybe not...but i dont trust the fake role reveal...but if he turns out to be good i think the seer needs to look at RPI who has been pushing heavily to get the herbalist lynched

i pretty much agree with this

[Passacaglia]

the thing is, Pass can protect himself tonight. The wolves will figure that's what he'll do and they'll pick someone else off. After that, Pass has to protect someone else and the wolves will take him out then.

in other words, pass as a herbalist is really of no value to us

Except for that it means I'm a villager. If I'm fake, the real herbalist hasn't spoken up. That's because the plan of attack for the wolves in this case (RPI, McSweeny) is to tell the "real herbalist" not to speak up -- that way they don't have to.

There are a lot of arguments going on in this thread. There are also a lot of accusations with little argument.

[hoopsguy]

K, I'll refine - vote will stay on AE (for historical purposes) unless it looks like there is a need to switch.

On the seer looks at RPI scenario:
1.) We lynch Pass
2.) Pass was the herbalist

Think these assumptions are required for the RPI view

3.) Seer looks at RPI
4.) Seer verifies that RPI is a villager (and we had a villager vs villager day 1 clash)

This now puts us in a position where the seer needs to be fairly crafty in clearing RPI without giving away their position. Having the seer revealed at this point would be particularly brutal if we have already lost the herbalist.

4a.) Seer sees that RPI is a wolf

This is what the seer's reason for being, he has to make sure that we lynch the wolf. Hopefully without making it clear that they are the seer.

[Passacaglia]

Here's the way I look at it.

Option A -- I'm the herbalist. If that's the case, I'm trying to save my hide, or at least get one of the werewolves to speak up.

Option B -- I'm a wolf, trying to out the herbalist. Not a bad ploy, since I was already on the block before this, and I might as well try to get something out of it. And I went for a mild target -- I mean, I know the seer won't speak up if I claim I'm the seer.

I suppose it all depends on what you believe.

[Passacaglia]

K, I'll refine - vote will stay on AE (for historical purposes) unless it looks like there is a need to switch.

On the seer looks at RPI scenario:
1.) We lynch Pass
2.) Pass was the herbalist

Think these assumptions are required for the RPI view

3.) Seer looks at RPI
4.) Seer verifies that RPI is a villager (and we had a villager vs villager day 1 clash)

This now puts us in a position where the seer needs to be fairly crafty in clearing RPI without giving away their position. Having the seer revealed at this point would be particularly brutal if we have already lost the herbalist.

4a.) Seer sees that RPI is a wolf

This is what the seer's reason for being, he has to make sure that we lynch the wolf. Hopefully without making it clear that they are the seer.

Why let the seer out himself? It's obvious that if I'm the herbalist, RPI (and possibly McSweeny) is a wolf. Look at his posts.

[SnDvls]

This is what the seer's reason for being, he has to make sure that we lynch the wolf. Hopefully without making it clear that they are the seer.

this is my concern in it all too. Let's say Pass is telling the truth (don't know one way or the other) and now the seer has to clear/damn RPI without outting himself too. This is getting rather risky on day 1. Also, who's to say that this same thing doesn't play out again tomorrow with the "seer" ahead in the lynch votes and coming out saying they are the seer. I see Pass need to save himself, but we need to also be warry of others outting their role for self preservation in the future.

Did any of what I said make sense?

[Mr. Wednesday]

So my initial vote for pass i stated was to start some conversation worked?? :)Well, that depends on your view of "worked". If it outed the bodyguard, I would say, not so much. Unless, of course, you're a wolf.

[hoopsguy]

I'm guessing that if Pass is hung as the herbalist that the seer will not need to intervene to hang RPI, but might consider exerting influence to save him if it turns out he is a villager.

I think I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself on some of these "what if" scenarios. But I don't have the luxury of posting them tonight because I'm out of the mix for the next 24-30 hours. So I'm trying to put out my thoughts now and hope to come back to a good situation Thursday night.

[Mr. Wednesday]

well let's see

if pass is a werewolf, lynching him is a great thing

if he is the herbalist he's now pretty much useless and will be picked off by the wolves pretty quickly

if he's a villager just trying to save himself... well i'm not sure what to think about that possibility


anyway, it seems lynching him at this point wouldn't be such a terrible thingThere's still the opportunity for some mind games with the wolves that might possibly involve thwarting one kill (or even more, if he gets monumentally lucky). Maybe not a terrible thing, but certainly not a good idea.

[Coffee Warlord]

Why let the seer out himself? It's obvious that if I'm the herbalist, RPI (and possibly McSweeny) is a wolf. Look at his posts.

You should know better than to out yourself as a guard type. It ALWAYS gets that person lynched. :)

*mutters about his X-Com "comrades"*

[Mr. Wednesday]

Exactly. The positives he can offer (if he is the herbalist) at this point are negligible, so we'll say zero.Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There's at least an even chance that he costs the wolves a kill. It'll come down to mind games over the action tonight.

[Mr. Wednesday]

UNVOTE MCSWEENY

VOTE RPI-FAN - he's pushing this way too hard.

[McSweeny]

so if Pass does get lynched tonight and turns out to be the herbalist, that means that RPI will be following him to the gallows tomorrow. One of the two will turn out to be a wolf right?

[Passacaglia]

You should know better than to out yourself as a guard type. It ALWAYS gets that person lynched. :)

*mutters about his X-Com "comrades"*

That's cool. I have no problem with being lynched. I just want it noted who immediately jumped on my back, without much analysis. He even typed "WOLF!" in all caps, as if that would help his argument!

[Mr. Wednesday]

I don't know that I'd necessarily argue it that way, even though I am voting for him right now.

[Passacaglia]

UNVOTE MCSWEENY

VOTE RPI-FAN - he's pushing this way too hard.

Finally! Someone else acknowledges it.

[SackAttack]

UNVOTE MCSWEENY

VOTE RPI-FAN - he's pushing this way too hard.

He's done this before and ended up being a wolf, I think. Modus operandi?

UNVOTE HOOPSGUY

VOTE RPI-FAN

[Passacaglia]

From RPI's post, #177. The first port after my herbalist claim.

There are three scenarios I see based on this post:

1) You actually are the herbalist, and instead of trying to make a smart play to avoid being lynched are trying to take the easy way out, and hurting the team majorly in the process.

2) You're a wolf, trying a desparation play as the herbalist. If so, just how dumb do you think we are?

3) You're not a wolf, pretending to be the herbalist. This wouldn't be an awful play, but trying something so opaque early on is just not a good move.

Not very much thought here.
1. He calls my claim the easy way out, and says I will hurt the team majorly in the process. I don't see how he can claim this. He later says I will be EXTREMELy valuable. Again, no explanation there.

2. No real analysis here.

3. He thinks that if I'm a normal, villager, pretending to be the herbalist, this wouldn't be an awful play? It's so clearly awful that words don't describe it!

I'm just saying he jumped out immediately against me, and his arguments are too flimsy for such a lack of caution.

[Passacaglia]

Okay, guys. I'm out for a while -- should be back around 6:15 central. Oh, and in case anyone was curous....

VOTE RPI-FAN

[Raiders Army]

You guys are crazy. At this point, I strongly believe that Pass is a wolf. I'm not switching my vote. Why the hell would RPI push for a kill on Pass at this point if RPI is a wolf and Pass is a villager? It doesn't make any sense.

FWIW, I am a villager this time around (thankfully), but I have been a wolf many times before. There is no way a wolf would push this hard on day 1. No way at all.

[Blade6119]

You guys are crazy. At this point, I strongly believe that Pass is a wolf. I'm not switching my vote. Why the hell would RPI push for a kill on Pass at this point if RPI is a wolf and Pass is a villager? It doesn't make any sense.

FWIW, I am a villager this time around (thankfully), but I have been a wolf many times before. There is no way a wolf would push this hard on day 1. No way at all.

LOL, hes pulling a Blade!! Hes pushing wayy to hard, i do that every game!!! :D :D

[McSweeny]

well i just read through all the posts after pass claimed to be the herbalist. I'm starting to agree that RPI did come on waaay to strong. Notice the post where i just tossed out the various scenarios. Everyone seemed to be discussing what to do and RPI jumps on my post and starts hollering "Lynch him! Lynch him!"

so now that i've rationalized it a bit:

UNVOTE PASSACAGLIA

VOTE RPI-FAN

[Raiders Army]

LOL, hes pulling a Blade!! Hes pushing wayy to hard, i do that every game!!! :D :D
Well, I think everybody pushes, but wolves don't normally push hard on DAY 1.

[McSweeny]

Well, I think everybody pushes, but wolves don't normally push hard on DAY 1.

but isn't coming out and claiming to be the herbalist pushing hard on day one?

[Blade6119]

......without sounding like im defending rpi, as ive stated he needs to be checked tonight if he lives i think, but i think its wrong let pass off the hook here...like raiders said, a wolf wouldnt do this much in the eye of everyone on day bloody 1...hes pushing hard yes, too hard, yes...too hard for a wolf, yes....we have better odds on pass, who made a convenient role reveal after he was wayyy up in votes...im sticking with pass and think you all should too...

[Blade6119]

but isn't coming out and claiming to be the herbalist pushing hard on day one?

Not when he had like 4 more votes then anyone else...he only did this after barring a role reveal he was a dead man...all he did is try to save his own ass, which is why i highly doubt hes telling the truth...he never hinted at it to help the team, just came right out....seems way too easy and convenient

[McSweeny]

so we've got a handfull of guys trying to deflect votes from Pass and some guys trying to deflect votes from RPI.

i don't know what the hell is really going on

[McSweeny]

dola

i do know this though

UNVOTE RPI-FAN

[Raiders Army]

but isn't coming out and claiming to be the herbalist pushing hard on day one?
That's a self-defense move poorly played or a ploy.

[Blade6119]

so we've got a handfull of guys trying to deflect votes from Pass and some guys trying to deflect votes from RPI.

i don't know what the hell is really going on

Im not deflecting off rpi, hell vote him tomorrow...i just think we cant let pass off the hook today...it should also give us a route to go in the future with camps starting to develop...