Michael Vick Trade (Was it worth it?)

[Raiders Army]

2001 Draft, Chargers trade the first overall pick (Vick) for the fifth overall, the 67th, a 2nd round pick in 2002, and Tim Dwight.

[stevew]

Seemed like the falcons traded a ton for (basically) a kordell stewart clone.

[Ben E Lou]

Verdict's still out. I doubt we get to the playoffs twice and have a chance at back-to-back winning seasons for the first time ever if we don't make the trade, though.

[Grammaticus]

Tomlinson alone, makes that deal sour for the Falcons.

[the_meanstrosity]

What Grammaticus said.

[VPI97]

Tomlinson alone, makes that deal sour for the Falcons.But the Falcons would not have drafted Tomlinson...they would have likely picked David Terrell with the #5 pick. Vick > Terrell

[Raiders Army]

Verdict's still out. I doubt we get to the playoffs twice and have a chance at back-to-back winning seasons for the first time ever if we don't make the trade, though.
I think the verdict is also still out, due to the time it takes QBs to develop vs. the time it takes RBs to develop; however, a very strong case can be made for Tomlinson's health vs. Vick's health.

[Ben E Lou]

I think the verdict is also still out, due to the time it takes QBs to develop vs. the time it takes RBs to develop; however, a very strong case can be made for Tomlinson's health vs. Vick's health.Yeah, the health issue is a concern, but as VPI pointed out, I doubt we draft LT in the 5-hole anyway, considering Americus Boy's love affair with Jamal, who was coming off of a nice comeback year and was expected to be stronger in '01. VPI's probably right about Terrell. The only good that could have come from that pick is that we probably end up with Peppers and/or Palmer as a result. :p

[Draft Dodger]

and remember, a part of that deal is the extra pick, freeing San Diego to take Brees in the 2nd round.

I think for both teams, it was a franchise booster. I have a hard time picturing the Chargers doing as well as they are with Vick at the helm and no LT. And Vick is the franchise (and a marketing gold mine) in Atlanta. The important thing, to me, is that I don't think either franchise would be a succesful as they are today without having made that trade.

[VPI97]

I think for both teams, it was a franchise booster. I have a hard time picturing the Chargers doing as well as they are with Vick at the helm and no LT. And Vick is the franchise (and a marketing gold mine) in Atlanta. The important thing, to me, is that I don't think either franchise would be a succesful as they are today without having made that trade.Yup.

[Maple Leafs]

I would just like to take a moment to recognize Raider's Army for being perhaps the first person in the history of the internet to start this discussion without mistakingly including Drew Brees in the Chargers side of the trade.

[cthomer5000]

My opinion varies daily, but ultimately it was a win/win trade.

[Anthony]

Verdict's still out. I doubt we get to the playoffs twice and have a chance at back-to-back winning seasons for the first time ever if we don't make the trade, though.

JEEZUS CHRISTMAS CAN YOU STOP BEING A VICK APOLOGIST!

this is bordering on lunacy. just stop. STOP. :mad:

[MikeVick7]

JEEZUS CHRISTMAS CAN YOU STOP BEING A VICK APOLOGIST!

this is bordering on lunacy. just stop. STOP. :mad:
And would you stop wanting him to be a clone of a pocket QB.


Do the Falcs win with him in? - Yes.

Do they win with him out? - No.

[Draft Dodger]

JEEZUS CHRISTMAS CAN YOU STOP BEING A VICK APOLOGIST!

this is bordering on lunacy. just stop. STOP. :mad:

what kind of stupidity is this?

[sachmo71]

what kind of stupidity is this?


We hold these truths to be self-evident.

[Ben E Lou]

A strange little man, he is.

[kcchief19]

JEEZUS CHRISTMAS CAN YOU STOP BEING A VICK APOLOGIST!

this is bordering on lunacy. just stop. STOP. :mad:I would like to apologize on behalf of Michael Vick for having one of the three highest winning percentages among NLF quarterbacks since 2001, going to two pro-bowls in his first four seasons, making the playoffs twice in his first four seasons and taking a ragtag football team to the NFC Championship game.

[Bee]

When comparing the trade, I just look at who got the best player(s). Trying to figure out "what ifs" is all conjecture. Personally, I think the Chargers ended up much better off than the Falcons did.

Also, with Vick...I think comparing his development with a typical QB is wrong. Running QBs tend to have a much shorter career than the typical QB (or they change their ways). A running QB needs to develop and do his thing earlier than your typical QB if he's going to have a major impact IMO. Vick still has a chance to do something, but I feel his window is closing quick for him to live up to the hype when he came out.

[st.cronin]

Chargers have 'won' the trade, barely. Vick certainly could be one of those guys like Elway or Young who blossoms late in his career, but there's no guarantee of that.

[sachmo71]

Vick doesn't like the cold.

[Anthony]

Atlanta is no different than the Panthers. they're the exact same team: defensive-minded head coach, good defense, strong running games. the only difference is the Panthers were thisclose to wining a Super Bowl and the Falcons haven't been there yet. at this point in time i can't honestly say i'd take Vick over Delhomme - Delhomme hasn't been as injured, is a proven late game QB, and nearly single handedly won a championship. highlight clips mean nothing if you can't win.

Vick is a good running back. if the NFL allows the option then my money is on Atlanta. until then, Vick ain't good.

[Anthony]

Chargers got LT and Brees out of the deal, Falcons got a QB who has yet to play a 16 game season and who abandons the play to tuck the ball in so he can make another top 10 play on ESPN.

[kcchief19]

I think it was a good move for both teams. I don't think either team would have been as successful in the other's shoes. Thomlinson and Schottenheimer are a great fit, and Vick's a great fit for what Atlanta does. It's amazing what Vick has accomplished with no wide receives and retread running backs, and I think Drew Brees owes Thomlinson a commission on his next contract.

The judgement could certainly change over the years. Until one or both of the players can win a title or be consistent in the playoffs, than there really isn't anything to brag about.

[cthomer5000]

Vick is a good running back. if the NFL allows the option then my money is on Atlanta. until then, Vick ain't good.
The NFL does "allow" the option. It's just that no one runs it.

[kcchief19]

I would just like to take a moment to recognize Raider's Army for being perhaps the first person in the history of the internet to start this discussion without mistakingly including Drew Brees in the Chargers side of the trade.Chargers got LT and Brees out of the deal, Falcons got a QB who has yet to play a 16 game season and who abandons the play to tuck the ball in so he can make another top 10 play on ESPN.There you go, Leafs.

[rkmsuf]

I don't sense that Vick is much of a leader out there. He just kind of does his thing. Just a guess from way on the outside looking in though.

[rkmsuf]

The NFL does "allow" the option. It's just that no one runs it.

The option doesn't work in the NFL. Linebackers are way too fast.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Vick doesn't like the cold.

Ask Green Bay how much he likes the cold ;) 1st home playoff loss ever...

[Grammaticus]

Vick’s value to a team is equal to that of a running back. He is a good runner and a poor passer. The fear of his running is what makes passing options appear when they would not otherwise. Once the fear of him running is diminished, he will be an even poorer passer.

Most running backs production severely drops off after the age of 30 and many do not even make it that long. I know there are some notable exceptions, but the vast majority of runners are no longer worth the value after 30 (about a 7 or 8 year career). A decent quarterbacks shelf life is more like 15 years, with about 3 being lower production developmental years.

Based on this logic, Vick’s shelf life is that of a running back and not a quarterback. Unless he reinvents himself as a passer, he may have 5 years left. Although his injury record shows that he is not even a particularly durable runner.

Sure, the verdict is still out on Vick, but why engage in such a risky investment, when there are so many better options available. The Falcons are draining their resources into Vick, which is holding the team back. Yeah, they had some moderate success, but they had better success with Dan Reeves and Jamal Anderson.

It is a tough call to cut the cord on an investment that you have put so much into, but you have to make the call at some point. It’s even tougher when everyone is hyping the guy beyond the second coming. My guess is, you’ll still be awaiting that coming in 5 years.

[Fouts]

I liked the trade then, and I love it now. I wasn't sold on Vick, but I liked LT coming in. That draft sure helped me forget about Leaf.

[General Mike]

I thought the trade made alot of sense for both teams before it even happened. And I think both teams got what they wanted out of it. I do think the Chargers set themselves up better long term with Tomlinson and Brees tho.

[MalcPow]

Both teams had pretty good drafts in 2001 (Atlanta's 2nd was Crumpler), and I think you have to say it was a win-win for both teams. Put where both of these teams are today in the context of the teams that picked 2nd and 3rd in that draft, Arizona and Cleveland, and it's tough to say that either was a big loser. It's kind of hard to make a call on this as well because if I remember correctly Vick wasn't going to sign with the Chargers anyway ala Eli, so they had to make a deal, it wasn't that they somehow saw LT as a more valuable player and made a move accordingly. Vick may not be everything you want in a QB but I'd be very surprised if he didn't win a ring or two before he's done. Put a good team around him and one of these years he'll string some of that magic together for a couple games in the playoffs.

[stevew]

I can't watch a falcons game without thinking the team would be better off with Vick lined up as FL, and Schaub as the starting QB.

[GreenMonster]

I can't watch a falcons game without thinking the team would be better off with Vick lined up as FL, and Schaub as the starting QB.


The Falcons already can't get the ball to their WR's or protect their mobile QB. Enter Schaub unmobile QB, who can't even complete 50% of his passes either. Bad idea..

[VPI97]

I can't watch a falcons game without thinking the team would be better off with Vick lined up as FL, and Schaub as the starting QB.4-12 isn't better than having a chance at the postseason.

[rkmsuf]

The Falcons already can't get the ball to their WR's or protect their mobile QB. Enter Schaub unmobile QB, who can't even complete 50% of his passes either. Bad idea..

Problem with that logic is that Vick is not good at getting the ball to the WRs on the run.

[GreenMonster]

Problem with that logic is that Vick is not good at getting the ball to the WRs on the run.

Vick seems to get the ball fine to Crumpler on the run because Crumpler actually gets seperation. Jenkins and White are young, but can't get open. Teams like Carolina and the Bears play man on the outside, put a safety deep and 8 in the box with someone to watch Crumpler and the Falcons can move the ball without big runs. Its tough to throw the ball without a reciever who can get open which is why the Falcons try every year to find a guy that can. (Price(FA), Jenkins(1st), White(1st))

[VPI97]

Vick seems to get the ball fine to Crumpler on the run because Crumpler actually gets seperation. Jenkins and White are young, but can't get open. Teams like Carolina and the Bears play man on the outside, put a safety deep and 8 in the box with someone to watch Crumpler and the Falcons can move the ball without big runs. Its tough to throw the ball without a reciever who can get open which is why the Falcons try every year to find a guy that can. (Price(FA), Jenkins(1st), White(1st))Dude, but Michael Vick sucks. Didn't you get the memo?

[SFL Cat]

and remember, a part of that deal is the extra pick, freeing San Diego to take Brees in the 2nd round.

I think for both teams, it was a franchise booster. I have a hard time picturing the Chargers doing as well as they are with Vick at the helm and no LT. And Vick is the franchise (and a marketing gold mine) in Atlanta. The important thing, to me, is that I don't think either franchise would be a succesful as they are today without having made that trade.

Good point, and I agree.

However, on just ability alone, I think Vick is way overhyped. He's a great athlete, but he is no where close to being an elite QB.

[GreenMonster]

Dude, but Michael Vick sucks. Didn't you get the memo?

As a representative of the Dolphins we are willing to give up Frerotte and Rosensfels (on fire lately) for Vick.. Let us know..

[Richard Weed]

How about that trade?

[st.cronin]

JEEZUS CHRISTMAS CAN YOU STOP BEING A VICK APOLOGIST!

this is bordering on lunacy. just stop. STOP. :mad:

This is a good post.

[Noble_Platypus]

And would you stop wanting him to be a clone of a pocket QB.


Do the Falcs win with him in? - Yes.

Do they win with him out? - No.

I beg to differ with the first statement. They MAYBE win with him in. The Vick years: 7-9,8-8,11-5,5-11,9-6-1

I mean c'mon, are you people so blind as to look at the hard numbers? A career 53.8 comp %, a 75 QB rating. Is this "winning"?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Those likely may be his final career numbers. Unless you can add future AFL numbers.

[larrymcg421]

I beg to differ with the first statement. They MAYBE win with him in. The Vick years: 7-9,8-8,11-5,5-11,9-6-1

I mean c'mon, are you people so blind as to look at the hard numbers? A career 53.8 comp %, a 75 QB rating. Is this "winning"?

If you're gonna base your argument on stats, you lose some credit when you intentionally leave out certain stats that make him look better.

Not that I'm a Vick fan (anymore), or that it changes the answer to the above question.

[sterlingice]

I would just like to take a moment to recognize Raider's Army for being perhaps the first person in the history of the internet to start this discussion without mistakingly including Drew Brees in the Chargers side of the trade.


To be fair, they use the 2nd round pick to get a QB rather than using the 1st rounder so not being able to take Vick forced their hand. So, from the Chargers perspective, the trade was basically what everyone says. It's just not from that perspective if you say Chargers v Falcons.

Chargers got Tomlinson, Brees, Tay Cody, Reche Caldwell, and Tim Dwight
Or Chargets get Vick, early 2nd round pick

SI

[dj_morton]

Vick is the most overrated player in the NFL

[Dutch]

I bet Vick would've been a better QB if he didn't wear out his arm slamming injured dogs against the pavement.

Sick fuck.

[Chief Rum]

I don't see how anyone but Falcons fans, VTech fans and Vick aplogists could call this anything like a close to good trade for Atlanta. It might go down as one of the worst trades ever made.

And don't use the reasoning, "Well, the Falcons wouldn't have drafted LT and Brees, blah, blah..." The Falcons should get all the blame for being a poorly run franchise to that point of time in their history (fluke '98 year excepted).

[Chief Rum]

The Falcons already can't get the ball to their WR's or protect their mobile QB. Enter Schaub unmobile QB, who can't even complete 50% of his passes either. Bad idea..

Well at least the half of his passes he completes would get to a quick, running back styled wide receiver. If Vick's the one throwing th ball, who's catching it?

[Noble_Platypus]

If you're gonna base your argument on stats, you lose some credit when you intentionally leave out certain stats that make him look better.

Not that I'm a Vick fan (anymore), or that it changes the answer to the above question.

Stats that make him look better? WTF are you talking about? Who cares what other stats make him look better. Whats as important as win/loss, Completion % and QB rating? Those are bottom of the line stats, what counts. Even if you want to factor in his running ability, it doesnt seem to have halped them much in the W column.

[Chief Rum]

Stats that make him look better? WTF are you talking about? Who cares what other stats make him look better. Whats as important as win/loss, Completion % and QB rating? Those are bottom of the line stats, what counts. Even if you want to factor in his running ability, it doesnt seem to have halped them much in the W column.

Huh? Am I missing something? I made anti-Vick comments just before yours, but even I would acknowledge he has helped them in the W column. There's no arguing that they do win when he's in the lineup. So I'm not sure where you're getting that. Agreed completely, though, on QB-specific stats like pass completion % and rating.

Also, I think you have to factor in his running ability. You know it's not his passing that is winning games for them when he's in. Although I would argue it's a consistently strong defense the past five or six years that is the primary reason they have been better. Vick's presense only elevates the offense just enough to make those close, low-scoring losses into close, low-scoring wins.

[Noble_Platypus]

larrymcg421 said I left out stats that made Vick look better. Thats the problem here, people are ignoring the fact his completion% and QB rating suck, and other than an 11-5 season they are basically a .500 team every year. Who gives a shit about the other stats there are? Factor his running ability in, it still doesnt change the fact they arent an elite team, merely average. They are not a consistant winning program. Paint it whatever color you want, but Vick hasnt elevated the Falcons like he was supposed to.

[st.cronin]

I'm pretty sure I remember that coming out of college, Vick was as hyped for his passing as he was for his running. He was supposed to be like a super-charged version of Brett Favre, is the way I remember him described.

I think history will remember him as one of the most disappointing #1 picks of all time.

[bulletsponge]

Vick is the most overrated player in the NFL

+1

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Michael Vick is a coach-killer. But also a dog-killer. :)

[Anthony]

I'm pretty sure I remember that coming out of college, Vick was as hyped for his passing as he was for his running. He was supposed to be like a super-charged version of Brett Favre, is the way I remember him described.

I think history will remember him as one of the most disappointing #1 picks of all time.

no, i don't think he'll ever be labeled a bust. i don't like Vick, but i know a balla when i see one. he'll just be remembered as one in a long line of QBs who were able to go to x amount of Pro Bowls but as far as being a difference maker in terms of wins/losses he had no affect. to me, Mike Vick is the black Jake Plummer or the black Eli Manning. nice individual stats, but can you ever really say thse guys took their teams to the next level? but Vick is certainly not a bust. even if he can't take his teams to the Super Bowl - he brings in fans to the stadium and is/was great for merchandising. you can't make money off of busts. that's why they're busts - they are of no financial or competitive use to your team. Eli Manning is not a difference maker it seems so far, but he's the face of the franchise and sells jerseys. i'm sure the Giants feel 2 out of 3 ain't bad. same goes for the Falcons.

he still should be converted to a RB, though.

[larrymcg421]

Stats that make him look better? WTF are you talking about? Who cares what other stats make him look better. Whats as important as win/loss, Completion % and QB rating? Those are bottom of the line stats, what counts. Even if you want to factor in his running ability, it doesnt seem to have halped them much in the W column.

His running hasn't helped them in the win column? Huh? In what world is a first down or a TD less valuable because the QB runs for it rather than throws for it?

And your W-L numbers aren't telling the whole story either. Since he got the starting job in 2002, Vick has missed 14 games and the Falcons are 3-11 in those games.

QB Rating is one of the most overrated stats in all of sports. QB A who throws it out in the flat for a 1 yard TD is apparently so much better than QB B who runs it in from the 1, even though they provide the exact same value to the team. It can actually be argued that QB B's extra impact on the running game (not just for his own running but from opening holes for the RB since the LB's have to watch the QB now) makes him even more valuable.

Again, none of this changes the fact that he's a sick fuck or that the Chargers got the better end of this deal even if it was a straight up trade.

[Noble_Platypus]

His running hasn't helped them in the win column? Huh? In what world is a first down or a TD less valuable because the QB runs for it rather than throws for it?

And your W-L numbers aren't telling the whole story either. Since he got the starting job in 2002, Vick has missed 14 games and the Falcons are 3-11 in those games.

QB Rating is one of the most overrated stats in all of sports. QB A who throws it out in the flat for a 1 yard TD is apparently so much better than QB B who runs it in from the 1, even though they provide the exact same value to the team. It can actually be argued that QB B's extra impact on the running game (not just for his own running but from opening holes for the RB since the LB's have to watch the QB now) makes him even more valuable.

Again, none of this changes the fact that he's a sick fuck or that the Chargers got the better end of this deal even if it was a straight up trade.

Where are all of these wins you keep talking about that he gets running the ball? Everybody wants to talk about how he runs the ball and wins games, but the win/loss at the end of the day still shows 1 good season and the rest mediocre. What good is his running stats and TDs if they still lose? And as far as his missing all of those games that just leads to durability questions.
Theonly thing I totall agree with is that he is a sick fuck and the chargers won this trade hands down.

[Synovia]

no, i don't think he'll ever be labeled a bust. i don't like Vick, but i know a balla when i see one. he'll just be remembered as one in a long line of QBs who were able to go to x amount of Pro Bowls but as far as being a difference maker in terms of wins/losses he had no affect. to me, Mike Vick is the black Jake Plummer or the black Eli Manning. nice individual stats, but can you ever really say thse guys took their teams to the next level? but Vick is certainly not a bust. even if he can't take his teams to the Super Bowl - he brings in fans to the stadium and is/was great for merchandising. you can't make money off of busts. that's why they're busts - they are of no financial or competitive use to your team. Eli Manning is not a difference maker it seems so far, but he's the face of the franchise and sells jerseys. i'm sure the Giants feel 2 out of 3 ain't bad. same goes for the Falcons.

he still should be converted to a RB, though.


Eli Manning is pretty much a league average quarterback. Hes not exceptional, but hes decent. MV has never been better than BAD.


Good Quarterbacks win games. MV has never taken a team outside a standard deviation of 8-8.

Running for 14 yards on 3rd and 18 doesnt make up for the fact that you got sacked twice when you should have thrown the ball away.

[Chief Rum]

Where are all of these wins you keep talking about that he gets running the ball? Everybody wants to talk about how he runs the ball and wins games, but the win/loss at the end of the day still shows 1 good season and the rest mediocre. What good is his running stats and TDs if they still lose? And as far as his missing all of those games that just leads to durability questions.
Theonly thing I totall agree with is that he is a sick fuck and the chargers won this trade hands down.

How do you think the Falcons are getting what wins they get? I already mentioned the D, but after that, what is it? Or are you arguing it's all D and Vick did nothing? His legs were their offense. The issues of dealing with Vick as a runner opened things up for their other runners and made a bad passing game into just a slightly sub-medicore one.

The win loss records by themselves aren't indicative of Vick's value to the Falcons. The win loss record when he is in there versus when he is not is much more substantive. How bad do you think the Falcons would be without Vick? If you don't think he has made a difference for that team (and, please, it's choking me just saying it), then honestly, you're smoking something.

[Noble_Platypus]

How do you think the Falcons are getting what wins they get? I already mentioned the D, but after that, what is it? Or are you arguing it's all D and Vick did nothing? His legs were their offense. The issues of dealing with Vick as a runner opened things up for their other runners and made a bad passing game into just a slightly sub-medicore one.

The win loss records by themselves aren't indicative of Vick's value to the Falcons. The win loss record when he is in there versus when he is not is much more substantive. How bad do you think the Falcons would be without Vick? If you don't think he has made a difference for that team (and, please, it's choking me just saying it), then honestly, you're smoking something.

If you are arguing that they do better with Vick then say, Harrington, then yes, they win more games with him in there. But you talk as if in the last 6 years they wouldnt have had other options at QB. I honestly think they could win as many games if they had kept Shaub as they do with Vick. My main point isnt that they havent won games with Vick being there, but that for a guy touted as so talented and such a dangerous guy that they are essentially a .500 team. I agree he has won games for them but do you honestly think that they would be 1-15 every year without him, because with him they are mediocre. If he is so GD good then why are they so average?
This has turned into a "they win 2 more games a year with him than without him" thread. Fine, they win more with him. But for all the money and hype is it worth it? Is 1 good season in his career (11-5) worth it?

[Chief Rum]

If you are arguing that they do better with Vick then say, Harrington, then yes, they win more games with him in there. But you talk as if in the last 6 years they wouldnt have had other options at QB. I honestly think they could win as many games if they had kept Shaub as they do with Vick. My main point isnt that they havent won games with Vick being there, but that for a guy touted as so talented and such a dangerous guy that they are essentially a .500 team. I agree he has won games for them but do you honestly think that they would be 1-15 every year without him, because with him they are mediocre. If he is so GD good then why are they so average?
This has turned into a "they win 2 more games a year with him than without him" thread. Fine, they win more with him. But for all the money and hype is it worth it? Is 1 good season in his career (11-5) worth it?

I'm just pointing out the numbers, which you can't deny. As said, they are 37-28-1 with him and 3-11 without him since 2002.

[larrymcg421]

I honestly think they could win as many games if they had kept Shaub as they do with Vick.

Using the three stats you based your judgment of Vick on, Schaub has lower QB rating, lower completion %, and lower W/L record.

The whole point of my earlier post is that it's silly to isolate stats to make a player look bad, when everyone knows there's a nother stat that cancels out some of the badness. It'd be like saying Marino sucked in 1984 because he threw 17 INT's while ignoring all the other stats.

Now if you want to argue that the rushing stats don't do enough to make up for the other stuff, then that's certainly fair game, but there's no need to hide the stat that reflects the most successful aspect of his game.

[ISiddiqui]

After CR's first post to him (somewhat) defending Vick just shows there are crazies on both extremes. Chargers won the deal (though it is true that the Falcons would have found some way to fuck up having the 5th pick), but Vick was important for the Falcons success during the time he was the starting QB. Look at the rest of the offense and you'll note how deprived of talent it was/is. Dunn is a solid RB, true, and Crumpler is a good TE, but the rest of the offense just blows. Without Vick's legs, the Falcons never lead the league in rushing, even once, and with their recievers (the BEARS cut Dez White right before the Falcons picked up him) it wouldn't have been pretty for, say, Schaub.

And if you recall, Doug Johnson was being spoken of in the same terms of Schaub is today. Schaub may actually be the real deal, but he wouldn't have done all that well in Atlanta... at least he's got Andre Johnson in Houston.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I think NP makes the best point. Has ATL won games with Vick? Yes. But, would Atlanta have won more games with another QB that you could get with $130 million? Yes.

Not to mention you could argue that Vick's big contract (which he is clearly NOT worth) prevents the team from affording to get other guys who could bolster other parts of the team. So, one could in fact argue that with just a regular joe QB (but the addition of 2-3 $50 million guys at other positions), they would in fact win more games without Vick and his salary than with him. The problem with judging ATL's record without him does not take into account that it does not involve not having his salary either.

[Noble_Platypus]

Exactly. First, is Shaub had played some his #s would be better than Vicks, because I believe he is a better QB. Not a better runner, but a better QB. His #s reflect very little playing time. Second, Vinatieri is correct. For that amount of money they could have had another QB who barely completes 50% of his passes plus some other good players. Also, when you look at the other ATL offensive players and say "they arent that good" its because ATL is as bad at evaluating WRs as they are QBs.

[ISiddiqui]

If you think they are bad as evaluating QB's, then you conceed that Schaub sucks, because they did draft him in the 3rd round a few years back.

[Noble_Platypus]

Even ATL could have one fall in their lap. Besides, how do we know if he sucks, he has barely played. Lastly, I didnt say he DIDNT suck, I just said the Falcons could probably go 8-8 with him just as easily as they do Vick.

[ISiddiqui]

You said they are bad at evaluating QBs.. means you think Schaub sucks. It's not exactly what you said, but what the logical end is of that statement.

[Noble_Platypus]

WTF does that have to do with anything? Regardless of whether he sucks or not that has no bearing on the conversation. All I said was is the Falcons could do just as well with him sucking as they do Vick sucking.

[ISiddiqui]

It has to do with you saying the Falcons suck at evaluating QBs... and no I do not believe the Falcons would have done as good with Schaub. It wouldn't have been as bad as the Doug Johnson season, but it wouldn't have been that much better. Like I said, Doug Johnson was the Matt Schaub back then. Anti-Vick folk were clamoring for him to start and it was assumed he'd get a starting job when he became a FA. That changed once he was put in the role and the Falcons went south. Then again, I definately don't blame it all on him.

[Noble_Platypus]

This is fucking ridiculous. You are basically arguing that since tha Falcons didnt lose every Fucking game they played that Vick is a stud QB because without him they would have lost them all.

[Noble_Platypus]

#1 overall selected, supposed franchise QBs should deliver more than 1 decent season out of 6, especially when you give them the money they did. A few sportscenter highlight runs doesnt offset the fact he hasnt delivered what someone making his money taken in that spot is expected to.

[larrymcg421]

This is fucking ridiculous. You are basically arguing that since tha Falcons didnt lose every Fucking game they played that Vick is a stud QB because without him they would have lost them all.

Nobody is calling him a stud QB. Please try to pay attention.

[Noble_Platypus]

Nobody is calling him a stud QB. Please try to pay attention.

I thought you were still looking for stats that made Vick look good, I didnt think you would be back for awhile.

[Chief Rum]

I thought you were still looking for stats that made Vick look good, I didnt think you would be back for awhile.

And yet you still ignore the very relevant stat I put up regarding the win-loss record when he's in and when he's not. I guess no sense addressing anything that goes against your beliefs, huh?

[Noble_Platypus]

No, I saw them, and I stand by what I stated above:

#1 overall selected, supposed franchise QBs should deliver more than 1 decent season out of 6, especially when you give them the money they did. A few sportscenter highlight runs doesnt offset the fact he hasnt delivered what someone making his money taken in that spot is expected to

He still hasnt consistantly delivered wins or playoff appearances. Throw LT out, at this point they would lose this trade just factoring Brees vs Vick. He has proven to be a tremendous runner, but a below average QB.

[Chief Rum]

No, I saw them, and I stand by what I stated above:

#1 overall selected, supposed franchise QBs should deliver more than 1 decent season out of 6, especially when you give them the money they did. A few sportscenter highlight runs doesnt offset the fact he hasnt delivered what someone making his money taken in that spot is expected to

He still hasnt consistantly delivered wins or playoff appearances. Throw LT out, at this point they would lose this trade just factoring Brees vs Vick. He has proven to be a tremendous runner, but a below average QB.

You won't get an argument from me on any of that. If you look at my first two posts in this thread, you will see that is entirely my opinion as well. What you are arguing that is patently false is that Vick did not have a positive impact on the performance of this team. Actually, he did, and it was a very large one, based on the win-loss disparity.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Chief, while you claim NP is ignoring your comparison of the ATLwin-loss record with and without him, you are also choosing to ignore the point he made and I supported which is that your comparison is somewhat faulty because you should be comparing the ATL win-loss record without Vick (but without his salary) and with him (with his salary). Since it is of course physically impossible to do that comparison, one could assume at least at a minimum that ATL would have a better record that 3-12 (or whatever it was) without Vick if there were 2-3 additional quality players on the team in his absence.

With all that said, I do believe Vick is an above average QB because of everything he brings to the table. But he is not a QB that will get you to the SB. He had some early success because he did something new and surprising that took teams to get use to. Now that teams have seen him play and have adjusted their game plans, he is not going to do any better than he did in the past.

[Bee]

And yet you still ignore the very relevant stat I put up regarding the win-loss record when he's in and when he's not. I guess no sense addressing anything that goes against your beliefs, huh?

But does the difference in win-loss record show Vick was good or does it show the offense was built around him and his unique talent?

[Noble_Platypus]

Chief, while you claim NP is ignoring your comparison of the ATLwin-loss record with and without him, you are also choosing to ignore the point he made and I supported which is that your comparison is somewhat faulty because you should be comparing the ATL win-loss record without Vick (but without his salary) and with him (with his salary). Since it is of course physically impossible to do that comparison, one could assume at least at a minimum that ATL would have a better record that 3-12 (or whatever it was) without Vick if there were 2-3 additional quality players on the team in his absence.

With all that said, I do believe Vick is an above average QB because of everything he brings to the table. But he is not a QB that will get you to the SB. He had some early success because he did something new and surprising that took teams to get use to. Now that teams have seen him play and have adjusted their game plans, he is not going to do any better than he did in the past.


Yep. Vick has won more games than no Vick but still paying his salary. I just think that a less expensive option plus 2-4 more quality players with the extra money would make them a better team. Sure he has a positive impact on the team, but I look at it as being negative if I think they could have done better with that money spread out. The won loss record you point is valid, but at the end of the day I just dont think they are a contender with Vick and his salary, where they might be without.

[miked]

Yep. Vick has won more games than no Vick but still paying his salary. I just think that a less expensive option plus 2-4 more quality players with the extra money would make them a better team. Sure he has a positive impact on the team, but I look at it as being negative if I think they could have done better with that money spread out. The won loss record you point is valid, but at the end of the day I just dont think they are a contender with Vick and his salary, where they might be without.

I think this statement is misleading. Everyone talks about salary, but let's face, he could restructure, they could find money, etc, but when you think your biggest offseason move is to get Ashlie Lelie your team isn't trying very hard. Is he overrated, by his numbers, sure. Let's not even beging to talk about offensive play calling the last 2 seasons, especially in the red zone. He sells out a huge dome in a region where crappy college football teams have more backing. He's thrown 75 TDs and ran for 20 more in what is basically 4.5 seasons of play. He has 50 picks, but heck, even Marino had 75 picks or so in his first few seasons. The fact that he was a #1 overall pick isn't really all that relevant in terms of his success. He's won more than he's lost, he was rushed in to NFL action by a crappy team, he's been able to get the ball in the endzone more than he turns it over, and he sells a million tickets and merchandise...to be fair, let's compare him to other QBs taken in the 1st round in the past few years, then you tell me how he is for a first round pick...

2000: Pennington, solid QB
2001: Vick
2002: Carr, Harrington, Ramsey; yeah, great year
2003: Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman; Palmer's been out of this world, the rest mediocre
2004: Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Losman; good year, maybe if Vick had the Steelers running game, defense and WRs, he'd win big too.
2005: Smith, Rodgers, Campbell; jury is still out on Smith, others suck.
2006: Too early to tell really with Leinart, Young, Cutler

Point being, about 20% of 1st round QBs eventually become great, even if that high. To expect Vick to be able to win SuperBowls with receivers who can't run routes or catch balls is a bit unfair. He's not all world, but each week he puts his team in a position to win and has come out more often than not on top.

[ISiddiqui]

I agree with mike wrt to the salary. If they really wanted to, they could restructure the deal.. but it seemed like they didn't really try to really get all that much better on the offensive side. Sure, they drafted recievers, but never went after big free agent WRs. The play calling was against Vick's strengths (instead of playing to his big arm they tried to go West Coast) and they thought all was well with a small O-line, lack of talent in the wideouts, and above average RBs.

[Noble_Platypus]

I understand they point about play calling against his strength, whch is running. But do you want your starting QB, who makes a ton of money, running as a primary option all the time?
The fact that he was a #1 overall pick isn't really all that relevant in terms of his success, but it is relevant in terms of expectations. Is that fair? Hell no, but thats is the way it works in the NFL.

[ISiddiqui]

I understand they point about play calling against his strength, whch is running. But do you want your starting QB, who makes a ton of money, running as a primary option all the time?
The fact that he was a #1 overall pick isn't really all that relevant in terms of his success, but it is relevant in terms of expectations. Is that fair? Hell no, but thats is the way it works in the NFL.

Please don't let your biases influence you argument or anything. Vick's strengths were running AND throwing deep. He has a very good arm and while he isn't as accurate on the short and medium passing game, he can really launch a ball very well. Unfortunately he didn't get to show it under Mora.

Speaking of a #1 overall pick, I'd say he's been more successful than, say, Eli Manning. Has Eli been a bust?

[nilodor]

Vick doesn't like the cold.

Too bad because the way he's going he's going to be playing in the CFL.

[Noble_Platypus]

Please don't let your biases influence you argument or anything. Vick's strengths were running AND throwing deep. He has a very good arm and while he isn't as accurate on the short and medium passing game, he can really launch a ball very well. Unfortunately he didn't get to show it under Mora.

Speaking of a #1 overall pick, I'd say he's been more successful than, say, Eli Manning. Has Eli been a bust?

Is expressing my opinion letting my biases influence my argument? Yep, just like yours are. Thats why its what you think/believe.
Eli? SO far yes, he has been somewhat of a bust. Not Akili Smith bust, but not what was expected either.

[ISiddiqui]

Is expressing my opinion letting my biases influence my argument? Yep, just like yours are. Thats why its what you think/believe.
Eli? SO far yes, he has been somewhat of a bust. Not Akili Smith bust, but not what was expected either.

Your opinion is highly biased. It comes through in the basically "Vick is just a running back playing QB" type of statements you are making. I mean CR has had to defend Vick against some of your attacks... it shows me that you are too far to an extreme on this.

And I don't really think you can be "somewhat of a bust". It's one of those things that you either are or aren't.

[Synovia]

If you think they are bad as evaluating QB's, then you conceed that Schaub sucks, because they did draft him in the 3rd round a few years back.

This has got to be the most inane piece of nonsense I've ever seen.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. They made a bad pick with Vick, and then made a bigger mistake giving him that monster contract. That doesnt mean that they made a bad pick with Shaub or anyone else.

[Synovia]

I agree with mike wrt to the salary. If they really wanted to, they could restructure the deal.. but it seemed like they didn't really try to really get all that much better on the offensive side. Sure, they drafted recievers, but never went after big free agent WRs. The play calling was against Vick's strengths (instead of playing to his big arm they tried to go West Coast) and they thought all was well with a small O-line, lack of talent in the wideouts, and above average RBs.

They can only restructure the deal if Vick agrees to it. Generally, when you restructure, the player gets more money (total) to free up some cap space right now. Restructuring would have meant giving Vick EVEN MORE money.

Cut The "Vick's WRs dont have any talent" Crap. Theyre all first rounders, or guys who had success with other teams. The constant here is Vick, not WR talent.

[Noble_Platypus]

CR doesnt have to defend Vick, its just his choice, like you choose to. YOu are a fucking moron to come out and say my opinion is biased, of course it is , its biased by what I think, just like yours is. If they werent we would all think the same and agree. I do think Vick would have been a better RB than QB. Lots of guys have strong arms, doesnt make them good QBs. You yourself said he isnt good on short/medium routes. Hes a 100+ million dollar QB! Should he have been able to figure that out and improve in 6 years?

[Synovia]

Speaking of a #1 overall pick, I'd say he's been more successful than, say, Eli Manning. Has Eli been a bust?

And I'd say you're a fucking lunatic.

[ISiddiqui]

They can only restructure the deal if Vick agrees to it. Generally, when you restructure, the player gets more money (total) to free up some cap space right now. Restructuring would have meant giving Vick EVEN MORE money.

Cut The "Vick's WRs dont have any talent" Crap. Theyre all first rounders, or guys who had success with other teams. The constant here is Vick, not WR talent.

More money later on... that's how the game works. It's a constant shuffle.

And which talented WRs did Vick have, pray tell? Peerless Price? The guy who had one good year before hand and couldn't get on Dallas' top 4 recievers? The one who is having even worse numbers for Buffalo today? Ashley Lelie? The one Denver was willing to get rid of after having drafted him in the first round because he dropped balls left and right? Jenkins and White? Because they are first rounders and that, of course, mean they should be stars (ask J.J. Stokes, Reggie Williams and a score of others if that holds true).

And I'd say you're a fucking lunatic.

If you think Eli is a better QB than Vick then I'd have to say you aren't paying attention. I wouldn't call you a "fucking lunatic", but then again, I tend not to fly off the handle that quickly. Manning's QB rating was about the same as Vick's last season, and that's not counting the running ability.

my opinion is biased, of course it is , its biased by what I think, just like yours is.

Sorry, but unlike you, I'm not that far extreme. I can see weaknesses in Vick's game, but you can see no strengths... thinking he's basically a RB playing QB.

[Huckleberry]

Here are the results of a QB rating system I worked on. It de-emphasizes completion percentage a little in favor of yards per attempt and takes into account sacks and runs. Sacks are incompletions and the yards lost are subtracted from passing yardage. Rushes are completions and yards are added. Touchdowns and lost fumbles added to touchdowns and INTs, respectively.

Here are the NFL passer rating numbers:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 168pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=224 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 29pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1426" width=39><COL style="WIDTH: 81pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3949" width=108><COL style="WIDTH: 58pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2816" width=77><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 29pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=39 height=17>Rank</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 81pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=108>Name</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 58pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=77>NFL Rating</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Manning</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="100.95377019748653">100.95</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Huard</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="98.019125683060111">98.02</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Brees</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="96.231949458483754">96.23</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. McNabb</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="95.530063291139243">95.53</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Romo</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="95.097675568743824">95.10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Palmer</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="93.870192307692307">93.87</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Bulger</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="92.935090702947846">92.94</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Rivers</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="92.010869565217391">92.01</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Cutler</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="88.488442822384428">88.49</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Brady</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="87.911821705426348">87.91</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Brunell</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="86.522435897435898">86.52</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Losman</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="84.940753690753695">84.94</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Pennington</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="82.598797250859107">82.60</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Delhomme</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="82.564771848414537">82.56</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">S. McNair</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="82.478632478632477">82.48</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Carr</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="82.088989441930607">82.09</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Garrard</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="80.48928077455048">80.49</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Kitna</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="79.879753914988811">79.88</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Leftwich</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="79.018670309653913">79.02</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">E. Manning</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="76.987547892720315">76.99</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Hasselbeck</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="76.005166217430371">76.01</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Vick</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="75.687285223367709">75.69</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Roethlisberger</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="75.404228855721399">75.40</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Smith</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="74.76432880844645">74.76</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>25</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Leinart</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="73.999778956675513">74.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>26</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">R. Grossman</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="73.897569444444443">73.90</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Favre</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="72.671968461120173">72.67</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Johnson</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="72.033978739559601">72.03</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Frye</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="71.994274809160316">71.99</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>30</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Plummer</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="68.776288117770761">68.78</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>31</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Harrington</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="68.191580756013749">68.19</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>32</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">V. Young</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="66.730859010270791">66.73</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Gradkowski</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="65.86636178861788">65.87</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>34</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Jackson</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="62.525720164609055">62.53</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>35</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Walter</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="55.782004830917884">55.78</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here are the "QB rating" numbers:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 136pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=182 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 17pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 841" width=23><COL style="WIDTH: 81pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3949" width=108><COL style="WIDTH: 38pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1865" width=51><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 17pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=23 height=17>Rk</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 81pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=108>Name</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 38pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=51>QB Rat</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Manning</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="103.6938832772166">103.69</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. McNabb</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="97.365627822944901">97.37</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Brees</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="91.619163952225847">91.62</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Rivers</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="87.904205607476626">87.90</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Huard</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="86.9315365551425">86.93</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Romo</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="86.573129251700678">86.57</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Bulger</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="86.104961832061065">86.10</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Palmer</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="85.167525773195891">85.17</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Leftwich</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="83.700076804915511">83.70</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Brady</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="83.45530174844896">83.46</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Brunell</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="82.226608187134502">82.23</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">S. McNair</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="81.43975332068311">81.44</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Cutler</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="80.560699588477362">80.56</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Vick</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="80.39568345323741">80.40</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">V. Young</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="77.196236559139791">77.20</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Delhomme</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="76.986022646850671">76.99</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">E. Manning</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="76.436480186480196">76.44</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Garrard</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="75.795454545454561">75.80</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Pennington</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="74.819696969696963">74.82</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Losman</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="73.623540856031127">73.62</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Hasselbeck</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="73.196414499605993">73.20</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Leinart</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="72.821428571428569">72.82</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">R. Grossman</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="71.427777777777777">71.43</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Roethlisberger</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="70.744210847044471">70.74</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>25</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Favre</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="70.595509893455116">70.60</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>26</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Smith</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="70.581413947536788">70.58</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Carr</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="70.177238805970148">70.18</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Kitna</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="69.013347763347753">69.01</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Plummer</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="68.828616352201266">68.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>30</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Harrington</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="67.340047393364927">67.34</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>31</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Johnson</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="64.915325285043608">64.92</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>32</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Jackson</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="62.980769230769226">62.98</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Frye</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="62.203856749311285">62.20</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>34</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Gradkowski</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="60.869289340101517">60.87</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>35</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Walter</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="37.336309523809533">37.34</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here are the ratings for QB Running only:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 133pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=177 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 17pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 841" width=23><COL style="WIDTH: 81pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3949" width=108><COL style="WIDTH: 35pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1682" width=46><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 17pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=23 height=17>Rk</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 81pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=108>Name</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 35pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=46>Run</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">V. Young</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="94.845679012345684">94.85</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Manning</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="93.186936936936931">93.19</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Leftwich</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="90.612745098039227">90.61</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Vick</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="73.382936507936506">73.38</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. McNabb</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="70.369496855345901">70.37</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">S. McNair</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="65.00706214689265">65.01</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Jackson</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="64.221014492753625">64.22</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Garrard</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="52.070895522388064">52.07</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Plummer</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="49.83024691358024">49.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Leinart</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="44.118217054263575">44.12</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Roethlisberger</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="40.566239316239319">40.57</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">P. Rivers</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="40.361111111111114">40.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Smith</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="33.148734177215189">33.15</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Brees</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="31.361111111111107">31.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Harrington</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="30.808823529411768">30.81</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Frye</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="29.070512820512821">29.07</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Brady</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="28.56111111111111">28.56</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">T. Romo</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="28.401515151515156">28.40</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Carr</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="26.551418439716318">26.55</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Brunell</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>23.85</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">E. Manning</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="21.083333333333332">21.08</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Pennington</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="19.685897435897438">19.69</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Johnson</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="19.439655172413794">19.44</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Hasselbeck</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="18.814102564102566">18.81</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>25</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Gradkowski</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="12.43686868686869">12.44</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>26</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Losman</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="7.0539215686274526">7.05</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>27</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">M. Bulger</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="4.0360696517412888">4.04</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Cutler</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.3166666666666611">2.32</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>29</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Kitna</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="1.7998281786941572">1.80</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>30</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">B. Favre</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-0.37878787878787845">-0.38</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>31</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">R. Grossman</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-12.453703703703706">-12.45</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>32</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">J. Delhomme</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-12.916666666666664">-12.92</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">C. Palmer</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-18.266129032258071">-18.27</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>34</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">A. Walter</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-46.583333333333329">-46.58</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right height=17 x:num>35</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">D. Huard</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="-66.683333333333337">-66.68</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As the top 4 in the last set will prove, avoiding sacks can be very beneficial. Punching it in for TDs, too, of course.

[Noble_Platypus]

YOu said that he wasnt good at short/medium passes. Also that he raely gets to throw deep. What does that leave other than running as a strength?
You may say I have a stronger opinion on the matter, but your statement about being biased is stupid, your opinion is biased as well, just like everyones is.

This whole conversation started out as who won the trade but has boiled down to " sure he cant throw short/medium routes but he can launch it deep and can run"

[flere-imsaho]

I think there's a bunch of ways to answer this question.

Was it worth it, at the time?

Absolutely, in my opinion. Vick was hailed not only as a franchise QB, but as a player who would revolutionize the position. Atlanta had a dire need for someone who would revive interest in the Falcons organization, and saw an opportunity to take what a lot of people thought was a "once-in-a-lifetime" player. At the time, I think it was a slam dunk.

I suppose one can argue that it's a lot to give up for a potential franchise player, but the fact is that there are plenty of examples of teams rolling the dice in this way. It's a potential franchise player. Maybe you get lucky and he carries your team for 10 years, maybe you don't.

Was it worth it, in hindsight? (Version 1)

Yes. They got six pretty decent seasons out of him. They flirted (a bit) with being a playoff team. Vick put the national spotlight (mostly for good) on Atlanta. They were regularly featured in the media due to Vick (highlights, et. al.). They made a boatload on merchandising. Vick filled the stands.

Sure, maybe you now have to punt him, but maybe in a year this new kid is ready to step up and the fans won't be so far away as before to come back to the team. Plus, how much has the organization increased in value since 2001? I can't dig up the numbers, but I'd be a bit surprised if Vick's presence hasn't greatly helped Blank's bottom-line.

Was it worth it, in hindsight? (Version 2)

No. Sure, Vick got a lot of highlights, but over the course of 6 seasons he went from the perception of "wicked potential" to "laughingstock". It's been clear for at least the past season and a half that any good defense has little trouble either a) shutting him down or b) minimizing his effect. And yes, while the Falcons have maybe "flirted" with the playoffs, they've never really threatened to do much of anything (Green Bay game aside).

Plus, Vick's antics have left some really dirty PR stains on the franchise. Obviously the dog-fighting, but the Ron Mexico episode was really disgusting and turned off who knows how many female fans of the team. Vick's lack of judgment has also left the team in an exceptionally poor spot on the doorstep of a new season, and it's likely they'll have to view 2007-08 as a "lost" season. No franchise really wants to do this if they can avoid it. Lastly, how much was Vick's presence the reason for fan support? If it was a really big part, then Blank's no further now than when he made the original trade.


I guess the bottom-line, to me, is that I think trades like this are best judged in the context of the time period in which they happened. With each subsequent season so many variables are introduced that looking at outcomes 5/6 years down the road isn't really a fair judgment. Players in the draft are, to a certain extent, a gamble, and so each GM has to make an estimation of where they're going to place value, and then draft for it.

[ISiddiqui]

YOu said that he wasnt good at short/medium passes. Also that he raely gets to throw deep. What does that leave other than running as a strength?
You may say I have a stronger opinion on the matter, but your statement about being biased is stupid, your opinion is biased as well, just like everyones is.

This whole conversation started out as who won the trade but has boiled down to " sure he cant throw short/medium routes but he can launch it deep and can run"

Are you deliberately being dense? I ask that honestly. I said that his strengths was throwing deep and running. How in the world does the fact he rarely gets to throw deep under the Mora regime mean that throwing deep isn't a strength anymore? That's kind of exactly what I mean by the system did not play to his strengths.

And my opinion about your bias is not "stupid". You are extremely biased. It'd be like calling out Rush Limbaugh's bias for blasting Hillary Clinton. The bias, when it is that extreme has to be called out, because you are deliberately shortchanging the person because you despise him. Refusing to the look at the stats that put him a good light, insisting he's a RB not a QB, that kind of BS. Questions any credibility your argument may hold.

[miked]

They can only restructure the deal if Vick agrees to it. Generally, when you restructure, the player gets more money (total) to free up some cap space right now. Restructuring would have meant giving Vick EVEN MORE money.

Cut The "Vick's WRs dont have any talent" Crap. Theyre all first rounders, or guys who had success with other teams. The constant here is Vick, not WR talent.

Can I buy some room in the buble-world :)

I think you really need to go back and re-evaluate that statement. I think about 15% of first round WRs actually become stars. I'd like to see what stud QBs can do with Brian Finneran, Ashlie Lelie, Michael "drops" Jenkins, Roddy White, Peerless Price, Dez White, Shawn Jefferson, and more. These are the who's who is crappy WRs. I'm not guaranteeing Vick greatness with other WRs, but he's never had the chance. Put him in Indy, or Denver and he might light things up. Before this dog thing, I was actually looking forward to seeing if Petrino could do anything with Vick...then they went out and made sure to secure the big name WR...Joe Horn :rolleyes:

[Noble_Platypus]

Are you deliberately being dense? I ask that honestly. I said that his strengths was throwing deep and running. How in the world does the fact he rarely gets to throw deep under the Mora regime mean that throwing deep isn't a strength anymore? That's kind of exactly what I mean by the system did not play to his strengths.

And my opinion about your bias is not "stupid". You are extremely biased. It'd be like calling out Rush Limbaugh's bias for blasting Hillary Clinton. The bias, when it is that extreme has to be called out, because you are deliberately shortchanging the person because you despise him. Refusing to the look at the stats that put him a good light, insisting he's a RB not a QB, that kind of BS. Questions any credibility your argument may hold.

I did mention stats earlier in this thread if you look up. He has a 73 something QB rating and a sub 54% completion %, which I included as why I think he is a disappointment. My point earier waas bottom line for all of his rushing stats and whatever else you want to look at is that he doesnt consistantly win and can be counted on to make clutch throws. Then everyone started saying about looking beyond that stats and this and that. Which is it?



Do I like Vick? no, I dont. This dogfighting thing is terrible. But I didnt dislike him before this and still thought he isnt a good QB.
Would you want him as your QB?

[rkmsuf]

I enjoyed Keith Brooking's comment the other day on Vick about him before the dog stuff. Something to the affect of "yeah, Mike has really been working hard. He's even been to practice everyday." Brooking seemed geniunly impressed by this fact.

lol.

[ISiddiqui]

I did mention stats earlier in this thread if you look up. He has a 73 something QB rating and a sub 54% completion %, which I included as why I think he is a disappointment. My point earier waas bottom line for all of his rushing stats and whatever else you want to look at is that he doesnt consistantly win and can be counted on to make clutch throws. Then everyone started saying about looking beyond that stats and this and that. Which is it?



Do I like Vick? no, I dont. This dogfighting thing is terrible. But I didnt dislike him before this and still thought he isnt a good QB.
Would you want him as your QB?

"He doesn't consistantly win" - even after CR showed you the record with him in and with him out. Then you squirmed a bit, latched onto Vinateri's argument about salary and tried to run with that. As for clutch throws, for a while Vick was known for clutch runs... either way, if you get a first down, what does it matter?

"looking beyond that stats" - winning percentage with him in and him out, rushing yardage, etc.

"Would you want him as your QB" - if not for the dogfighting thing (and various other off the field antics), I wouldn't mind him as my QB. I think that Petrino's system would have done him good. Someone that takes advantage of that rocket arm can only be good for him. Getting some BIG o-linemen also will help (the Alex Gibbs crap was not working for protecting the QB... though to be fair, Vick's scrambling caused some of those sacks as well).

[flere-imsaho]

I don't buy the WR argument. Look at Tom Brady. Apart from maybe Deion Branch, has he ever had a really "stud" WR? The proof, to me, has been that when they've gone elsewhere, Brady's WRs have fizzled.

Vick, like Brett Favre, only knows one velocity for his throws: too hard. Green Bay achieved success in part by acquiring receivers who could catch that stuff. Atlanta, not so much. Brady and Manning (and really watch Manning for this - he's excellent at it) tailor their throws for their receivers, on the fly. It's an incredible talent.

So yeah, if you put Torry Holt and Roy Williams (to pick two WRs who are particularly adept at catching the ball) on the Falcons, and maybe Vick's a 60% or higher QB. But then so are probably about 3/4 of the QBs in the league.

[ISiddiqui]

No question that Brady is better than Vick... I didn't even think that was being argued ;). The best QBs will make due with poor WRs. Brady is one of the best. So I don't necessarily see that as an indictment on Vick... I've never claimed he was that good. Merely above average as a QB, when the offense takes advantage of that long ball, and doesn't try to make him into a West Coast QB, but also has great running ability.

[rkmsuf]

I don't buy the WR argument. Look at Tom Brady. Apart from maybe Deion Branch, has he ever had a really "stud" WR? The proof, to me, has been that when they've gone elsewhere, Brady's WRs have fizzled.

Vick, like Brett Favre, only knows one velocity for his throws: too hard. Green Bay achieved success in part by acquiring receivers who could catch that stuff. Atlanta, not so much. Brady and Manning (and really watch Manning for this - he's excellent at it) tailor their throws for their receivers, on the fly. It's an incredible talent.

So yeah, if you put Torry Holt and Roy Williams (to pick two WRs who are particularly adept at catching the ball) on the Falcons, and maybe Vick's a 60% or higher QB. But then so are probably about 3/4 of the QBs in the league.

somehow tom brady made david givens look good and made him a ton of money. it's safe to say david givens is not that good.

same with david patton. made him look like he could play at all. he cannot.

[Noble_Platypus]

Oh, because rushing yardage is way more important to a QB than completion % and rating. okay. Well, as long as we look pretty on paper I guess.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, because rushing yardage is way more important to a QB than completion % and rating. okay. Well, as long as we look pretty on paper I guess.

Well, his rating, in a West Coast system that really didn't fit his skill set, was about the same as Eli Manning's. And the rushing does change the game. The defense is a bit more confused because the rushing ability Vick possesses. I do think that that, more than anything, opened up lanes for Dunn/Duckett/Norwood that may not have otherwise been there.

[Noble_Platypus]

ISiddiqui, I am not going to argue with you about this anymore. We will have to agree to disagree I guess, but I stand by my BIASED opinion that for 130 million dollars I should get a guy who can do more than run and throw the long ball. Not being consistant on short/medium routes and not CONSISTANTLY putting your team in the playoffs is unacceptable. Its the same fucking standard by which all of the NFL QBs are held.

[larrymcg421]

Oh, because rushing yardage is way more important to a QB than completion % and rating. okay. Well, as long as we look pretty on paper I guess.

Except no one said anything close to that. Why can't you argue against what people actually say instead of just making up stuff?

[larrymcg421]

I don't buy the WR argument. Look at Tom Brady. Apart from maybe Deion Branch, has he ever had a really "stud" WR? The proof, to me, has been that when they've gone elsewhere, Brady's WRs have fizzled.

Michael Vick is not as good as Tom Brady. That is very insightful analysis in this thread.

I have another one for you. Michael Vick is not as good as Peyton Manning. Call the press.

[Synovia]

If you think Eli is a better QB than Vick then I'd have to say you aren't paying attention. I wouldn't call you a "fucking lunatic", but then again, I tend not to fly off the handle that quickly. Manning's QB rating was about the same as Vick's last season, and that's not counting the running ability.





Yeah, Vick and Eli had similar stats this year. Heres the difference: Vick is a 7 year veteran, Eli is in his 3rd year. One is still developing, the other isnt.

If you want to Bring in Vick's running numbers, take a look at his yards lost to sacks. I've never seen anyone get sacked 10+ yards behind the line of scrimmage so often.

There is absolutely no evidence that Vick is an "above average" quarterback. According to Football Outsiders, he has a -16.6% DVOA. -13% is considered "replacement level". There were only 2 starters worse than him, Charlie Frye, and Brad Gradowski.

[ISiddiqui]

ISiddiqui, I am not going to argue with you about this anymore. We will have to agree to disagree I guess, but I stand by my BIASED opinion that for 130 million dollars I should get a guy who can do more than run and throw the long ball. Not being consistant on short/medium routes and not CONSISTANTLY putting your team in the playoffs is unacceptable. Its the same fucking standard by which all of the NFL QBs are held.

As larry said, you arguing by putting up strawmen and then busting them down and thinking you've scored a point. The fact is that you cannot, in the slightest, see the other side of the argument. That makes you biased in the extreme.

Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware that pro football is a team sport. Putting a team into the playoffs is more than just a QB's play factor (not saying that Vick has nothing to do with it, before you bring up that strawmen). After all, even though they didn't score as well as they had in the past, the Falcons offense was 9th in the league in offensive yardage (better than their 11-5 NFC Championship year... when they were 18th in offensive yardage). After all, do you begrude Marc Bulger for not leading the Rams into the playoffs last season?

[flere-imsaho]

Oh come on guys, that wasn't my point. I was just trying to bury the "Vick has had no good WRs" argument. If that argument already got buried, then I'm sorry for being redundant.

[Synovia]

Well, his rating, in a West Coast system that really didn't fit his skill set, was about the same as Eli Manning's. And the rushing does change the game. The defense is a bit more confused because the rushing ability Vick possesses. I do think that that, more than anything, opened up lanes for Dunn/Duckett/Norwood that may not have otherwise been there.

If his running was such an issue with confusing defenses, it would mean more men in the box, which would lead to better passing numbers. If 51% Cmp% is "better passing numbers", I'd like to see what they'd be if he couldnt run.

We're not discounting Vick's running, or saying it doesnt matter. You say it brings Vick from below-average to above-average. I believe it brings him from "high school level" to "moderately below average".

Hes a great runner, it just doesnt come even close to making up for how abysmal of a passer he is. Hes one of the highest paid players in football, and hes a below average player at his position.

[Synovia]

As larry said, you arguing by putting up strawmen and then busting them down and thinking you've scored a point. The fact is that you cannot, in the slightest, see the other side of the argument. That makes you biased in the extreme.

Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware that pro football is a team sport. Putting a team into the playoffs is more than just a QB's play factor (not saying that Vick has nothing to do with it, before you bring up that strawmen). After all, even though they didn't score as well as they had in the past, the Falcons offense was 9th in the league in offensive yardage (better than their 11-5 NFC Championship year... when they were 18th in offensive yardage). After all, do you begrude Marc Bulger for not leading the Rams into the playoffs last season?

You're judging them by Total Yards? C'mon here. You know how teams put up lots of yards? By losing, and passing a lot in the second half.

[larrymcg421]

You're judging them by Total Yards? C'mon here. You know how teams put up lots of yards? By losing, and passing a lot in the second half.

Which is a good argument against a team that actually passes a lot, and not, you know, the Falcons.

[Synovia]

It also really pisses me off with the "Vick has no line" crap.

They seem to be able to run block pretty damn well to me, and whenever I watch Falcons games, there seems to be a pretty nice pocket for 4 or 5 seconds. The problem is, at the end of 4 - 5 seconds, Vick almost always STILL has the ball.

Remember how the Cowboy's line looked like they sucked with Bledsoe, and then looked great with Romo? Thats because Romo gets rid of the ball quickly. Vick holds onto the ball longer than anyone I've ever seen.... but running quarterbacks ALL hold onto the ball forever. They try to run when they should throw it away.

[ISiddiqui]

Which is a good argument against a team that actually passes a lot, and not, you know, the Falcons.

It must be because the other team expects them to pass and so leaves huge running holes... yeah, that's the ticket ;).

[Synovia]

Which is a good argument against a team that actually passes a lot, and not, you know, the Falcons.

The falcons DO pass a lot in the 4th quarter.

The reason they dont pass a lot early in games, is cus, you know, they suck at it.

And passing wins games. Not running.

[ISiddiqui]

Uh... they kind of have more rushing yards than passing yards... which goes against your argument that total yards are padded by teams which throw a lot when they are behind.

[Noble_Platypus]

Except no one said anything close to that. Why can't you argue against what people actually say instead of just making up stuff?

Isiddqui alluded to this point, but I gets its just me knocking down strawmen or whatever fucking retarded statement was made. I am getting blasted for ignoring Vicks strengths, but you two are ignoring his weaknesses. Is it acceptable for a 100+ million dollar, supposed franchise QB to be sub par in throwing the ball? His WRs are not without fault, but his accuracy is just plain bad for someone who makes their living playing QB.

If Vick is as big of a weapon and as good as you say he is why arent they in the playoffs consitantly? Why arent they winning 10-12 games every year?

[ISiddiqui]

I am getting blasted for ignoring Vicks strengths, but you two are ignoring his weaknesses.

I've constantly alluded to his weaknesses, you even tried to latch onto one of them.. but I see that doesn't count.

Or you are willfully ignoring that to make your point.

[Noble_Platypus]

You seem more intent on attacking people who disagree with you then anything else. Bottom line is that ATL is at best a mediocre team who isnt a consistant contender and Vick, just like any other QB on any other team, is a big part of that. We can spend all day looking at things he does well but if it doesnt translate into anything better than 7- or 8-8 what does it matter? Is that worth the money you pay him?
I just noticed yo uare from Ga, so I didnt notice the homer aspect until now.

[ISiddiqui]

*Yawn*

You run out of things to say so start going for the "homer aspect". Not unexpected, I guess. His record has already been discussed ad nauseum, with even CR showing you the numbers. But for some reason you think that it'd be the same with an unproven backup at the helm.

Look at the lack of talent in the Falcon offense... look at the type of system they were trying to foist. Look at the defensive production. You do know that the 7-9 or 8-8 record can ALSO be a function of the team as much as it can be a function of Vick. I think his record with the team compared to the team's record without him shows greatly the positive value he has.

[larrymcg421]

I'm also from Georgia, but I'm a Dolphins fan. You were really reaching with that argument, dude.

[Noble_Platypus]

Oh, I finally get it! the games they lost were because the team was bad,or they didnt play to Vick strengths but the ones they win are all Vick. I see now. well, I guess since you obviously know more than anyone else on here theres no reason to continue this any further. You ran out of anything valid to say long ago. You like to make smug comments or make light of other people, but you choose to ignore that the Falcons ROI is terrible because they are not a contender year in and year out.
Have fun sitting home during the playoffs again this year.

[Noble_Platypus]

Yes, I am sure his argument in favor of Vick is in no way biased like mine is against Vick. Yep, reeeaallly reaching there

[Synovia]

Uh... they kind of have more rushing yards than passing yards... which goes against your argument that total yards are padded by teams which throw a lot when they are behind.

No, it doesnt. Do they have more running yards than passing yards in the fourth quarter?

[Synovia]

*Yawn*

You run out of things to say so start going for the "homer aspect". Not unexpected, I guess. His record has already been discussed ad nauseum, with even CR showing you the numbers. But for some reason you think that it'd be the same with an unproven backup at the helm.

Look at the lack of talent in the Falcon offense... look at the type of system they were trying to foist. Look at the defensive production. You do know that the 7-9 or 8-8 record can ALSO be a function of the team as much as it can be a function of Vick. I think his record with the team compared to the team's record without him shows greatly the positive value he has.

LACK OF TALENT?

ALL of their WRs are first rounders. Dunn is a Stud. Norwood is a Stud. The line is great at run blocking, and only seems to have a problem with pass blocking when vick doesnt stay in the pocket.

Vick is working with more talent than most QBs.

Maybe he'd be a good QB if he actually watched some film. He admitted last year that he'd never reviewed film of himself playing.

[larrymcg421]

ALL of their WRs are first rounders.

Interesting argument in a thread where we're talking about a 1st rounder that hasn't lived up to expectations.

Either Vick is also good because he's a 1st rounder or you have to look beyond drafting position to make a judgment on a player's talent level. You can't have it both ways.

[Synovia]

Larry, drafting in the first round guarantees talent. It does not guarantee work ethic, etc. Either all 3 WRs, both RBs, etc, are busts, or Vick is a bust. I think its much more likely Vick is the bust. Especially considering they've brought in multiple FA WRs, and they've all failed.

[spleen1015]

Especially considering they've brought in multiple FA WRs, and they've all failed.

Please ignore the fact that their numbers have gotten worse with the Falcons.

[Synovia]

spleen, thats exactly my point. Look at the teams with "elite" QBs. When receivers walk, their stats always drop significantly. A good QB props up his receivers stats. Look at NE with Brady. Look at Givens, Branch, and Patten. Look at the huge dropoffs they had leaving. Look how much better Caldwell and Gaffney got.

Good QBs make their recievers look better than they are. Vick makes all his recievers look bad.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, I finally get it! the games they lost were because the team was bad,or they didnt play to Vick strengths but the ones they win are all Vick.

Speaking of creating strawmen...

ALL of their WRs are first rounders. Dunn is a Stud. Norwood is a Stud. The line is great at run blocking, and only seems to have a problem with pass blocking when vick doesnt stay in the pocket.

Vick is working with more talent than most QBs.

This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous thing you've ever said. The fact that their WRs are first rounders guarentees talent?! WTF? The amount of failed first round WRs puts that argument to bed. Dunn is an aging RB, who, it is somewhat of a streach to call a "stud". Good, RB, sure.

As for the line... look at their average weight for one. They have problems with him in the pocket, out of the pocket, etc.

[RedKingGold]

Larry, drafting in the first round guarantees talent.

It does? :confused:

[Fighter of Foo]

The poll is biased. The trade wasn't for those players that the Chargers ultimately picked. It was the #1 pick (Vick) for other picks and Tim Dwight.

What the Chargers did with their picks, for the point of this discussion, is irrelevant.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

And I don't really think you can be "somewhat of a bust". It's one of those things that you either are or aren't.

I disagree your contention. "Somewhat of a bust" is equivalent to "has played well below expectations." That is a fair criticism to make of a high pick.

[Noble_Platypus]

The poll is biased. The trade wasn't for those players that the Chargers ultimately picked. It was the #1 pick (Vick) for other picks and Tim Dwight.

What the Chargers did with their picks, for the point of this discussion, is irrelevant.

Was Vick locked into #1? Shouldnt you say it was the #1 pick for Dwight and a bunch of Picks? Regardless of whether you think Vick was consensus or not there was no rule by which Vick was the only pick at #1

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ok, I will be the arbiter and cast in stone the true comments of Michael Vick.

Michael Vick has a strong arm and dazzling run ability.

Michael Vick is not a good thrower of the ball (when you add in all components -- touch, anticipation, reading defense).

Michael Vick has had a positive impact on the Falcons (until last week) both in on field performance and marketing.

Michael Vick can win you some games, but not a lot of them.

Michael Vick, simply put, is not very smart nor has a good work ethic -- two characteristics that are very important to the QB position.

In sum, when looking around at what is often available on the QB market, Michael Vick is a good QB to have. Unfortunately, it shouldn't cost you $130 million over 10 years. It should cost you $25 million over 5 years.

These truths are self evident.

[Noble_Platypus]

Amen

[larrymcg421]

Michael Vick has had a positive impact on the Falcons (until last week) both in on field performance and marketing.

NP, you really said amen to this? Because thats what Chief, Isidiqqui, and I have been arguing all along.

I don't really disagree with anything else that Vinatieri said.

[Noble_Platypus]

i said Amen because I hoped this would put an end to everything

[Noble_Platypus]

Plus, I never argued with the marketing aspect of Vick, just his performance on the field. I also said this:
If you are arguing that they do better with Vick then say, Harrington, then yes, they win more games with him in there. But you talk as if in the last 6 years they wouldnt have had other options at QB

My point was, and still is, You could have got as much from a cheaper QB than Vick, on the field, for way less money. Therefore, although he has had some positives there, I consider it overall negative since i think that they would have done better as a team and been more successful had they had a better/cheaper QB

[Fighter of Foo]

Was Vick locked into #1? Shouldnt you say it was the #1 pick for Dwight and a bunch of Picks? Regardless of whether you think Vick was consensus or not there was no rule by which Vick was the only pick at #1

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070718/news_1s18canepa.html

“We were taking Michael Vick – unless we got the trade we wanted,” says Chargers GM A.J. Smith, then Butler's assistant and confidant. “We wanted Tim Dwight. If he wasn't included in the deal, Michael Vick was going to be the quarterback here.”

EDIT: It goes on to say...

“We were committed to taking him,” Smith says, “and I don't speak out of both sides of my mouth. That's a fact. John Butler was committed to Michael Vick – unless we got an attractive package. The only player interested was Atlanta. John said, 'No Tim Dwight, no Michael Vick.'


“They hedged on it four or five different times. I think it was the day before the draft when they said, 'Tim Dwight is yours.' We knew who we wanted, that first brick, like we had in Buffalo with Thurman Thomas. But there were no guarantees LT would be there with the fifth pick.”

[larrymcg421]

I love how different the football world could be and it all depended on Tim Dwight.

[Capital]

It's easy to look back now and say that trade was not worth it. However, I live in Atlanta and this franchise was all but dead prior to the Vick trade and Arthur Blank owning the team. The Vick trade and his excitement on the field (along with fan-friendly initiatives by Blank) changed the entire national outlook with the Falcons. Tomlinson is unbelievable, but he would not have done what Vick did for the Falcons during 2002-2006.

It's just sad that all of the goodwill gained will now be lost.

[Anthony]

Tomlinson is unbelievable, but he would not have done what Vick did for the Falcons during 2002-2006.



Falcons went to the Super Bowl largely because of Jamal Anderson, and no one would ever say Jamal Anderosn was in LT's league. i think the Falcons would have been better off with LT than Vick, and this isn't hindsight talking. they would've had the premier RB in the league right now and with even a decent stay-in-the-pocket QB they could have been to a super bowl by now. look at how LT turned around San Diego.

[Capital]

San Diego plays a style of football that is a complete running style, which is perfect for Tomlinson. Jamal Anderson was under Dan Reeves who tailored the offense to fit Jamal. Reeves was close to being shown the door at the time of the Vick/Tomlinson draft. It all would have depended upon how the coaching would have tailored the offense.

My standpoint was not from of football standpoint but from a marketing standpoint. Drafting Tomlinson would not have erased the 20K-30K empty seats in the Dome. A home Falcons game was rarely on tv in Atlanta due to the blackout rule. This is a town that likes celebrity and Michael Vick was the celebrity and gave the franchise spirit.

Unfortunately, all of that is down the drain.

Tomlinson is only now getting the recognition he rightly derserved - due to that unbelievable season. I played in 2 fantasy leagues last year where he was the 3rd pick behind LJ and Alexander. ESPN ran commercials touting Reggie Bush and LJ.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Seemed like the falcons traded a ton for (basically) a kordell stewart clone.

You're crazy man, Vick was pretty good when Dan Reeves was the coach. Well Kordell just didn't get it done and he was a better player as "slash" then a starting QB.

[Synovia]

You're crazy man, Vick was pretty good when Dan Reeves was the coach. Well Kordell just didn't get it done and he was a better player as "slash" then a starting QB.

Plenty of QBs have one good season. Should we pay Rich Gannon 130m because of 2004?

[cthomer5000]

What do we think about this trade now?

[Draft Dodger]

it's a dog

[Kodos]

The categories in this poll are bizarre.

[rkmsuf]

Hot or not. Michael Vick trade.

[Maple Leafs]

Well, keep in mind the Chargers don't have Brees any more, and he was part of the trade.

[flere-imsaho]

What do we think about this trade now?

I still stand by my analysis earlier in the thread:

I think there's a bunch of ways to answer this question.

Was it worth it, at the time?

Absolutely, in my opinion. Vick was hailed not only as a franchise QB, but as a player who would revolutionize the position. Atlanta had a dire need for someone who would revive interest in the Falcons organization, and saw an opportunity to take what a lot of people thought was a "once-in-a-lifetime" player. At the time, I think it was a slam dunk.

I suppose one can argue that it's a lot to give up for a potential franchise player, but the fact is that there are plenty of examples of teams rolling the dice in this way. It's a potential franchise player. Maybe you get lucky and he carries your team for 10 years, maybe you don't.

Was it worth it, in hindsight? (Version 1)

Yes. They got six pretty decent seasons out of him. They flirted (a bit) with being a playoff team. Vick put the national spotlight (mostly for good) on Atlanta. They were regularly featured in the media due to Vick (highlights, et. al.). They made a boatload on merchandising. Vick filled the stands.

Sure, maybe you now have to punt him, but maybe in a year this new kid is ready to step up and the fans won't be so far away as before to come back to the team. Plus, how much has the organization increased in value since 2001? I can't dig up the numbers, but I'd be a bit surprised if Vick's presence hasn't greatly helped Blank's bottom-line.

Was it worth it, in hindsight? (Version 2)

No. Sure, Vick got a lot of highlights, but over the course of 6 seasons he went from the perception of "wicked potential" to "laughingstock". It's been clear for at least the past season and a half that any good defense has little trouble either a) shutting him down or b) minimizing his effect. And yes, while the Falcons have maybe "flirted" with the playoffs, they've never really threatened to do much of anything (Green Bay game aside).

Plus, Vick's antics have left some really dirty PR stains on the franchise. Obviously the dog-fighting, but the Ron Mexico episode was really disgusting and turned off who knows how many female fans of the team. Vick's lack of judgment has also left the team in an exceptionally poor spot on the doorstep of a new season, and it's likely they'll have to view 2007-08 as a "lost" season. No franchise really wants to do this if they can avoid it. Lastly, how much was Vick's presence the reason for fan support? If it was a really big part, then Blank's no further now than when he made the original trade.


I guess the bottom-line, to me, is that I think trades like this are best judged in the context of the time period in which they happened. With each subsequent season so many variables are introduced that looking at outcomes 5/6 years down the road isn't really a fair judgment. Players in the draft are, to a certain extent, a gamble, and so each GM has to make an estimation of where they're going to place value, and then draft for it.

[MikeVic]

I haven't voted yet...