FOFC Draft: The Four Sport Challenge - Best Athletes in History

[Schmidty]

Here is the draft order:

1. Raiders Army
1.1 Michael Jordan - Basketball
2.12 Joe Montana - Football
3.1 Nolan Ryan - Baseball
4.12 Pete Sampras - Other
5.1 Ronnie Lott - Football
6.12 Doug Harvey - Hockey
7.1 Jaromir Jagr - Hockey
8.12 Tom Seaver - Baseball
9.1 George "Meadowlark" Lemon - Basketball
10.12 John Wooden - Wildcard

2. ThunderingHERD
1.2 Wayne Gretzky - Hockey
2.11 Mario Lemieux - Hockey
3.2 Ted Williams - Baseball
4.11 Stan Musial - Baseball
5.2 Dick Butkus - Football
6.11 Sugar Ray Robinson - Other
7.2 George Mikan - Basketball
8.11 Charles Barkley - Basketball
9.2 O.J. Simpson - Football
10.11 Diego Maradona - Wildcard

3. General Mike
1.3 Babe Ruth - Baseball
2.10 Gordie Howe - Hockey
3.3 Magic Johnson - Basketball
4.10 Reggie White- Football
5.3 Rocky Marciano - Other
6.10 Honus Wagner - Baseball
7.3 Deacon Jones - Football
8.10 Hakeem Olajuwon - Basketball
9.3 Mike Bossy - Hockey
10.10 Mike Schmidt - Wildcard

4. TazFTW
1.4 Jim Brown - Football
2.9 Patrick Roy - Hockey
3.4 Joe Louis - Other
4.9 Roger Clemens - Baseball
5.4 Barry Bonds - Baseball
6.9 Shaquille O'neal - Basketball
7.4 Elgin Baylor - Basketball
8.9 Ray Bourque - Hockey
9.4 Deion Sanders - Football
10.9 Bob Gibson - Wildcard

5. Maple Leafs
1.5 Muhammad Ali - Other
2.8 Jackie Robinson - Baseball
3.5 Bill Russell - Basketball
3.10 Walter Payton - Football
5.5 Mickey Mantle - Baseball
7.5 Jean Beliveau - Hockey
8.3 Arnold Palmer - Wildcard
8.8 Don Hutson - Football
9.5 Eddie Shore - Hockey
10.8 Karl Malone - Basketball

6. Schmidty
1.6 Tiger Woods - Other
2.7 Ty Cobb - Baseball
3.6 Larry Bird - Basketball
4.7 Johnny Unitas - Football
5.6 Pete Rose - Baseball
6.7 Steve Yzerman - Hockey
7.6 Rogers Hornsby - Wildcard
8.7 John Elway - Football
9.6 Pete Maravich - Basketball
10.7 Brett Hull - Hockey

7. kcchief19
1.7 Jim Thorpe - Other
2.6 Lance Armstrong - Wildcard
3.7 Mark Messier - hockey
4.6 Lou Gehrig - Baseball
5.7 Julius Erving - Basketball
6.6 Terry Sawchuck - Hockey
7.7 Gayle Sayers - Football
8.6 Brett Favre - Football
9.7 Dominique Wilkins - Basketball
10.6 Roberto Clemente - Baseball

8. vexroid
1.8 Bo Jackson - Wildcard
2.5 Carl Lewis - Other
3.8 Oscar Robertson - Basketball
4.5 Joe DiMaggio - Baseball
5.8 Sammy Baugh - Football
6.5 Isiah Thomas - Basketball
7.8 Red Grange - Football
8.5 Brooks Robinson - Baseball
9.8 Guy Lafleur - Hockey
10.5 Phil Esposito - Hockey

9. Travis
1.9 Jesse Owen - Other
2.4 Jerry Rice - Football
3.9 Babe Didrikson Zaharias - Wildcard
4.4 Hank Aaron - Baseball
5.9 Jerry West - Basketball
6.4 Vladislav Tretiak - Hockey
7.9 Bob Cousy - Basketball
8.4 Walter Johnson - Baseball
9.9 Paul Coffey - Hockey
10.4 Warren Moon - Football

10. vtbub
1.10 Jack Nicklaus - Other
2.3 Willie Mays - Baseball
4.3 Emmitt Smith - Football
4.8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Basketball
5.10 Maurice Richard- Hockey
6.3 Sandy Koufax - Baseball
6.8 Mike Singletary - Football
7.10 Walt Frazie r- Basketball
9.10 Ken Dryden - Hockey
10.3 Steffi Graf- Wildcard

11. DeToxRoxDVHStyle/RadioFriendlyUnitShifter
1.11 Bobby Orr - Hockey
2.2 Barry Sanders - Football
3.11 Lawerence Taylor - Football
4.2 Cal Ripken Jr. - Baseball
5.11 - Kurt Angle - Wildcard
6.2 LeBron James - Basketball
7.11 Mark Spitz - Other
8.2 Rickey Henderson - Baseball
9.11 Jacques Plante - Hockey
10.2 George Gervin - Basketball

12. DaddyTorgo
1.12 Wilt Chamberlain - Basketball
2.1 Pele - Other
3.12 Eddy Merckx - Wildcard
4.1 Bobby Hull - Hockey
5.12 John Havlicek - Basketball
6.1 Cy Young - Baseball
7.12 Steve Young - Football
8.1 Dan Marino - Football
9.12 Marcel Dionne - Hockey
10.1 Josh "The Black Babe Ruth" Gibson - Baseball

After having so much fun in Maple Leaf's comedy draft, I've decided to run one myself. This one is going to run along the same line as the comedy draft (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=45945), but this one will be sports-themed.

Since I'm kind of lazy, I've ask Maple Leafs if I could copy and paste a portion of the rules from the comedy draft:

How to play:
If you want to play, PM me. If there's a lot of interest, I'll randomly select 10-12 players. If there's not much interest, we'll just go with the first ten.

The draft will be conducted via the foum, in this thread. When it's your turn to draft, you post, ideally with a brief note about the reason for your choice. If you won't be around, you PM someone else your picks in advance to keep things moving.

The draft is a serpentine draft, which is a fancy way of saying that the order reverses each round. Draft order will be determined randomly before we start.

How to win:
The fun here comes more from the draft itself than from actually winning, but just in case it matters: Once the draft is done, we'll hold a vote and let FOFC choose the winner.

The teams:

The idea is to pick 2 great players in each of the major north american sports, 1 in an "other sports" category, and 1 in a "wildcard" category. The wildcard pick can be from any sport you choose. The player needn't have ever even played pro. They can be great college players or "amateurs" from days gone by. I am debating whether or not to include one female pick, but I'd like to hear more feedback from participants of the draft. As of right now, your team must have:

Football - 2 players

Baseball - 2 players

Basketball - 2 players

Hockey - 2 players

Other Sports - 1 player

Wildcard - 1 player

A note on multi-sport athletes: You may choose to put an athlete in an other category than the sport they were most known for, but that players must have obviously played competitvely in that sport at some point. This strategy could be good if you want to squeeze a well-known player in after you've run out of room in their main sport; however, be aware that such a move might look silly or bad to the voters.

One last thing that I ask (as in the other game), please don't discuss a player unless that player has already been chosen. This obviously goes for onlookers as well.

Well, I think that's it. I hope we get a lot of interest in this one, because I think it'll be a lot of fun.

[Maple Leafs]

I'm in.

[Schmidty]

I'm in.

Thanks man.

We've got 3 so far. Looks like we might have to stick with 10 total, unless a lot of other people get interested.

[Raiders Army]

I'll do this puppy if accepted.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'll do it if the draft is at a time when i can be around

[Schmidty]

i'll do it if the draft is at a time when i can be around

It's not live. You just post your picks in whatever place you are in the order. If you aren't going to be around for a while, just send your pick to someone who won't be picking before you, or after you at the end of the serpantine order.

Well, this is encouraging. We now have 9. Others can feel free to sign up, as I think we can do 12 participants, maybe even more, unless you guys think that'd be a bad idea. The more people in the draft, the slower it'll go, and there could be a chance of people losing interest.

[General Mike]

I'm in.

[Schmidty]

Actually, I'm wrong: There are 10 people, including me.

[Schmidty]

Ok, we have 12 people now. I guess I'll stop at 14, although that's kind of a large amount of people.

[DaddyTorgo]

and the people just keep on pourin in!

[Schmidty]

actually, if no one else signs up by 5 p.m. PST, I'm going to call it at 12. Seems like a good number.

[Schmidty]

This is who I have right now:

1. Schmidty
2. ThunderingHERD
3. vtbub
4. Maple Leafs
5. Travis
6. TazFTW
7. DeToxRoxDVHStyle
8. vexroid
9. Raiders Army
10. DaddyTorgo
11. General Mike
12. kcchief19

[Schmidty]

Ok, we're cutting it off at 12. I think 14 would be too much.

[Schmidty]

I need someone, preferrably a non-participant, to generate the order based up people entry number posted above. http://random.org/sform.html

[MIJB#19]

9
2
11
6
4
1
12
8
5
3
7
10

[Schmidty]

9
2
11
6
4
1
12
8
5
3
7
10

Thanks. :)

[General Mike]

~!

[Schmidty]

Ok, here's the draft order:

1. Raiders Army
2. ThunderingHERD
3. General Mike
4. TazFTW
5. Maple Leafs
6. Schmidty
7. kcchief19
8. vexroid
9. Travis
10. vtbub
11. DeToxRoxDVHStyle
12. DaddyTorgo

[MIJB#19]

You're welcome. :)

Suggestion on the female part: There are maybe only few that warrant good value. I mean, I doubt drafting [top female tennis player] over one of the 100 best male tennis players of any year makes any sense at all. I mean, most likely the male player will win 9 out of 10 times. In some sports it might actually help to get votes, though, but I have no idea which ones at the moment.

[Schmidty]

You're welcome. :)

Suggestion on the female part: There are maybe only few that warrant good value. I mean, I doubt drafting Steffi Graf or Venus Williams over one of the 100 best male tennis players of any year makes any sense at all. I mean, most likely the male player will win 9 out of 10 times. In some sports it might actually help to get votes, though, but I have no idea which ones at the moment.

Good point. I've been thinking it would be bad idea anyway, so I think I'll just kill that idea.

[Schmidty]

Ok, the first day is likely to be slow as everyone gets their bearings, so I'm not worried about people PMing their pick until sometime tomorrow.

With the first pick in the draft, Raiders Army is on the clock.

[DeToxRox]

My team will be full of bad asses who chew tobacco.

[Schmidty]

My team will be full of bad asses who chew tobacco.

I just hope I'm able to get at least one male Ice Dancer.

[Raiders Army]

Aaaargh. Being first is a doozy here. This also means I pick last next round. After thinking about it, I pick

Peyton Manning

even though I don't like him as a person, he is probably the most dominant player in the NFL right now. I had a guy in mind for MLB and the NBA, but I'm going with him...

[Raiders Army]

Also, I vote for no female players. I don't know the WNBA that well. :)

[SnDvls]

are you doing only active ones or retired too?

I'll be following

[Schmidty]

are you doing only active ones or retired too?

I'll be following

People can pick anyone in history. I just sent him a PM confirming.

I thought I had made that clear in the "Teams" section of the rules, but I guess I should have said something more definitive. Sorry :(

[Schmidty]

Ok, since RA is gone from the draft, I'm going to pause it, as I doubt anyone would pick Peyton (as great as he is) over a lot of other athletes.

This was a crappy way to start. :(

[General Mike]

This was a crappy way to start. :(

Damn straight.

[Schmidty]

Damn straight.

I just don't know what else to do. Do you guys think I should just move on and say that he should have realized it, or should we be patient since I wasn't all that clear (other than the "teams" section)?

[Raven]

People can pick anyone in history. I just sent him a PM confirming.

I thought I had made that clear in the "Teams" section of the rules, but I guess I should have said something more definitive. Sorry :(


From a non-participants perspective, I think the title "Best Athletes in History" should have been definitive enough. I'd say RA's pick should stand, and noone else should be asked to wait for him to repick.

[Schmidty]

From a non-participants perspective, I think the title "Best Athletes in History" should have been definitive enough. I'd say RA's pick should stand, and noone else should be asked to wait for him to repick.

Unfortunately, I added that AFTER he made his pick to make it more clear. I PMed him immediately after his pick, but it appears that he was already gone. :(

[DaddyTorgo]

ouch. i get bitched with the 1 (12) / 2 (1) selection? That's going to hurt.

[Ramzavail]

Aaaargh. Being first is a doozy here. This also means I pick last next round. After thinking about it, I pick

Peyton Manning

even though I don't like him as a person, he is probably the most dominant player in the NFL right now. I had a guy in mind for MLB and the NBA, but I'm going with him...

I am shocked that this is the first overall pick. When he's clearly not the best quarterback of all time, at least, not yet.

[General Mike]

I just don't know what else to do. Do you guys think I should just move on and say that he should have realized it, or should we be patient since I wasn't all that clear (other than the "teams" section)?

yeah, I guess just wait til he comes back, and hopefully he doesnt take my guy.

[SnDvls]

as an outsider, just from the rules that were up when I asked my question it was pretty vague. I say let him repick. It's not like his pick was like #8 and 6 more people have picked.

[Schmidty]

as an outsider, just from the rules that were up when I asked my question it was pretty vague. I say let him repick. It's not like his pick was like #8 and 6 more people have picked.

I agree.

My bad, guys.

[vtbub]

I wouldn't worry about it. Not a biggie

[vex]

I thought it was pretty clear myself.

[saldana]

sorry i missed this game, looks like it is going to be alot of fun...schmidty, after this one, you should run one for the crappiest players of all times...that would be quite amusing...i draft cecil fielder.

[Raiders Army]

Sorry guys. My fault to a bad start. I'll edit and take

Michael Jordan

He was absolutely the most dominant basketball player of any time, including any present day guys. Right now everyone from Vince Carter to LeBron James has been dubbed the "Next Michael Jordan".

Edit--And I feel like a total dumbass. I apologize to all involved who had to wait and let me re-pick.

[kcchief19]

Edit--And I feel like a total dumbass. I apologize to all involved who had to wait and let me re-pick.No apologies necessary ... you're a Raiders fan. We understand. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Raiders Army]

Must be Al Davis' senility rubbing off on me.

[Schmidty]

Edit--And I feel like a total dumbass. I apologize to all involved who had to wait and let me re-pick.

No sweat. It was mostly my fault for not being as clear as I could have been. :)

[General Mike]

Schmidty, I have to step out for a few hours, can I send you my shortlist of 2 names?

[Schmidty]

Schmidty, I have to step out for a few hours, can I send you my shortlist of 2 names?

Yeah, that would be great. Thanks. :)

[Schmidty]

I think I'm going to give ThunderHERD until midnight EST. If he hasn't posted, I'm going to replace him, since I think the draft needs to get going after all the delays.

[Raiders Army]

Sounds good to me, but I feel like I'm to blame since he logged on about 4 AM EST this morning, just about two hours before I corrected my mistake.

Edit--Thanks for putting Michael Jordan under basketball instead of baseball. :)

[General Mike]

I'm back.

[vex]

I'm back.
Didn't miss much:p

[Huckleberry]

I feel Michael Jordan was a poor pick in the #1 overall position. Of course, based on the request not to discuss players until they're picked, it's not like I can fully explain why I feel that way at this point. :D

But there it is.

[DaddyTorgo]

think he's bad. wait till you see my team. drafting at #12+#13 overall I think I have very little idea of who will be taken/who will be available so I've got to sorta wait and see who gets picked before I can even go after it. I have some GENERAL thoughts, but that's about it.

[Raiders Army]

Well, I picked him not only for his on-the-court skill, but for everything else as well. (blank) wasn't in a movie and (blank) didn't have his own cologne. Now that I picked him, I think of two others that I probably would've picked over him, but oh well. At least he's better than Peyton Manning. ;)

[Huckleberry]

Well, I picked him not only for his on-the-court skill, but for everything else as well. (blank) wasn't in a movie and (blank) didn't have his own cologne. Now that I picked him, I think of two others that I probably would've picked over him, but oh well. At least he's better than Peyton Manning. ;)
I agree, a better pick than Manning. :D

However, I feel that it is indeed arguable as to whether he is the most dominant basketball player of all time. In fact, I tend to think (other guy) is. Meanwhile, I think (other other guy) in (other sport) is inarguably the greatest ever. At least I haven't seen a complete argument for anyone else that even makes me consider for a second that he isn't the greatest ever.

[vex]

Jordan would have been my top pick as well, fwiw.

[Raven Hawk]

I would have taken Sam Bowie ahead of Micheal Jordan. :D

[Alan T]

Are the Vikings still on the clock? :)

[Buccaneer]

Sorry guys. My fault to a bad start. I'll edit and take

Michael Jordan

He was absolutely the most dominant basketball player of any time, including any present day guys. Right now everyone from Vince Carter to LeBron James has been dubbed the "Next Michael Jordan".

Edit--And I feel like a total dumbass. I apologize to all involved who had to wait and let me re-pick.That probably is true but it's not saying very much. No one was ended being called the "pre-Michael Jordan" or the Michael Jordan of his era because while he was the best of his era and since,
ps. I had this written yesterday waiting for RA to re-pick since we all knew he would pick Jordan.

[DaddyTorgo]

so would a "theme" team work for this game? "Best goons" or "best players who went before their time" or something? what does the voting public think? or am i barking up the wrong tree?

[Schmidty]

so would a "theme" team work for this game? "Best goons" or "best players who went before their time" or something? what does the voting public think? or am i barking up the wrong tree?

I think that having a strong team from one general era could get votes from some different group, such as '70's stars would draw in the guys in their upper 30's/low 40's. It's kind of like certain TV shows draw in certain age groups. I'm not sure if that technique is better than just taking overall value though. Of course, it might be more fun to draft guys that you like from specific eras.

[SnDvls]

so would a "theme" team work for this game? "Best goons" or "best players who went before their time" or something? what does the voting public think? or am i barking up the wrong tree?


I'd say no on my end since it does now say "best athletes in history"
but that's just my opinion. Go for it I guess if that's what you want as it's all in fun anyhow.

[Maple Leafs]

No one was ended being called the "pre-Michael Jordan" or the Michael Jordan of his era because while he was the best of his era and since,
What school go you?

[Buccaneer]

What school go you?
old.

[Buccaneer]

But to answer your question literally, I did go to UNC and tutored Jordan in the summer before he "got" his degree. But while he was an extraordinary athlete and a gifted player, I have rejected what he turned the game into (one player, one ball in 24 seconds).

[Schmidty]

But to answer your question literally, I did go to UNC and tutored Jordan in the summer before he "got" his degree. But while he was an extraordinary athlete and a gifted player, I have rejected what he turned the game into (one player, one ball in 24 seconds).

Watch the Detroit Pistons sometime.

[Raiders Army]

But to answer your question literally, I did go to UNC and tutored Jordan in the summer before he "got" his degree. But while he was an extraordinary athlete and a gifted player, I have rejected what he turned the game into (one player, one ball in 24 seconds).
So you schooled MJ? :eek:

[Buccaneer]

So you schooled MJ? :eek:
Yeah, the two days he showed up all summer. On the first day and just before the last day of the summer session. Guess what grade he got?

Schmidty, I have been told about the exception that are the Pistons. Such style of play is not universal but I see it way, way too much in college and pro.

[Schmidty]

Schmidty, I have been told about the exception that are the Pistons. Such style of play is not universal but I see it way, way too much in college and pro.

I agree. That's why I love that team so much. The other team like that is the Spurs. Guess who the two best teams in the NBA are?

[Karlifornia]

Yeah, the two days he showed up all summer. On the first day and just before the last day of the summer session. Guess what grade he got?

Schmidty, I have been told about the exception that are the Pistons. Such style of play is not universal but I see it way, way too much in college and pro.


Or the Spurs.or the Suns..or the Mavs....or the Heat...

Just because SportsCenter is obsessed with Kobe, Iverson, etc., doesn't mean every team plays that way. The best teams are the teams that play a team game, and eventually every team will pick up on it again.

[ThunderingHERD]

<b>Wayne Gretsky</b>

[kcchief19]

But while he was an extraordinary athlete and a gifted player, I have rejected what he turned the game into (one player, one ball in 24 seconds).Not an unreasonable view, but I've always view Jordan as the last of the previous era, not the first of the current era. If anybody is an example of that adage not working it's Jordan, since when he was scoring 40 points a game he lost all the time and got blow out in the playoffs, but once he had some teammates and a system he thrived. And he played defense, unlike some of today's stars.

Regardless, I'd put him down easily as one of the five best basketball players of all time and certainly the most athletic.

[Buccaneer]

Or the Spurs.or the Suns..or the Mavs....or the Heat...

Just because SportsCenter is obsessed with Kobe, Iverson, etc., doesn't mean every team plays that way. The best teams are the teams that play a team game, and eventually every team will pick up on it again.
Do you see a trend towards a more team game and away from the "Be Like Mike" syndrome?

[Buccaneer]

Regardless, I'd put him down easily as one of the five best basketball players of all time and certainly the most athletic.
I would agree with this (in the top 5). Too many have said he is by far and away the best all time.

But your view that he was the last of an era is interesting. Something happened and I don't know what exactly except that it happened during his time. Did he pave the way for the thugs/urban asphalt type players to dominate the game (or at least the highlights)? I don't know but holding the ball for 20 seconds and then dunking from the FT throw line while everyone just stand around (I exaggerate) makes great highlights but probably started to turn off many fans when others try to do that and couldn't very well. We saw that with a certain Nuggets players last season and even though he has matured some this season, he still has a tendency to look very, very foolish at times (like many others I have seen since 1995). Not all, though.

[General Mike]

<b>Wayne Gretsky</b>

sonuvabitch.

With the 3rd pick the General Mike All-Stars select Babe Ruth.

[TazFTW]

sonuvabitch.

x2!

I was hoping that the top 3 would be from baseball, football, basketball, and then I could grab The Great One.

[Buccaneer]

sonuvabitch.

With the 3rd pick the General Mike All-Stars select Babe Ruth.
If this was an ESPN game, that pick would have been disqualified. They don't believe sports existing before 25 years ago.

[DaddyTorgo]

ruth and gretzkey down already?? I shudder to think who will be left to me at #12/13!!

[Maple Leafs]

I see where this is going.

Anyone want to trade up to the #5 pick?

[Raiders Army]

I was thinking Gretzsky because I don't know much hockey...but then again, that's probably why I didn't pick him in the first place.

[Raiders Army]

ruth and gretzkey down already?? I shudder to think who will be left to me at #12/13!!
I'm with you man. I gotta wait till #24/25. I'm hoping the guy I want is still available (and should be).

[path12]

ruth and gretzkey down already?? I shudder to think who will be left to me at #12/13!!

There'll be plenty. Last time I had 12/13 in fantasy league I cleaned up.

[TazFTW]

I was thinking about going the other sports route because I feel I can still get fan appreciated picks in the big 4. Here's to hoping that one of my other sports picks last.

With the Fourth Pick, Team Taz selects

Jim Brown, Football

He was a man amongst boys.

[Schmidty]

Glad to see things finally get going. :)

[Maple Leafs]

Not too tough a call here.

1.5 Muhammad Ali, other

[Karlifornia]

Do you see a trend towards a more team game and away from the "Be Like Mike" syndrome?


I think so. I mean, the Spurs and Pistons aren't just competitive teams, but dominant teams. This sort of success means their assistants will probably get coaching jobs around the league, and this mantra will spread. I mean, look at the 49ers back the 80's, and all of the assistants that became head coaches and offensive coordinators, and how the West Coast offense spread because of it. I could be completely wrong, though..

[TazFTW]

Not too tough a call here.

1.5 Muhammad Ali, other
One of the others I was considering.

[Schmidty]

Ok, this was a tough choice, but I'll pick one of the most dominant athletes of any era:

Tiger Woods - Other

[tanglewood]

Ok, this was a tough choice, but I'll pick one of the most dominant athletes of any era:

Tiger Woods - Other

Sorry guy, I think you may be mistaken, but this is an athlete draft.

[Schmidty]

Sorry guy, I think you may be mistaken, but this is an athlete draft.

Have you ever played golf? Muscle memory, constant physical practice, constant walking. Golfers are easily athletes and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves or jealous.

[Buccaneer]

Oh great, wait until we get a race car driver.

[Schmidty]

Oh great, wait until we get a race car driver.

They're definitely not athletes in my opinion, but that's the beauty of this competition. :D

[tanglewood]

Have you ever played golf? Muscle memory, constant physical practice, constant walking. Golfers are easily athletes and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves or jealous.

Sarcasm.

As for race car drivers, depends. F1 drivers are more athletes than golfers for sure.

[Schmidty]

Sarcasm.

As for race car drivers, depends. F1 drivers are more athletes than golfers for sure.

I don't agree, but that's cool.

[kcchief19]

Jim Thorpe - Other

Do you know what King Gustav said to him? He said, "Sir, you are the greatest athlete in the world."

So I got that going for my team.

[Maple Leafs]

Excellent pick, cheif.

[vex]

Gah, that was my pick.

[kcchief19]

But your view that he was the last of an era is interesting. Something happened and I don't know what exactly except that it happened during his time. Did he pave the way for the thugs/urban asphalt type players to dominate the game (or at least the highlights)? I don't know but holding the ball for 20 seconds and then dunking from the FT throw line while everyone just stand around (I exaggerate) makes great highlights but probably started to turn off many fans when others try to do that and couldn't very well. We saw that with a certain Nuggets players last season and even though he has matured some this season, he still has a tendency to look very, very foolish at times (like many others I have seen since 1995). Not all, though.You're helping me flesh out my thoughts a bit. I think it's certainly possible that Jordan had a negative influence on players who followed him because people tried to imitate him but failed because none of them have his talent and none of them work as hard as he did to be that good.

I think NBA players going to the Olympics has been a fascinating barometer for the sport. The 1992 was so dominant that many people including myself though that the rest of the world would take a few more generations to catch up. It actuality, it took about 10 years. The Mavs and Spurs were referenced as two teams doing things right -- I don't think it's a mistake those teams have key players from other countries. Whereas American players try to be Michael Jordan, European players try to be Larry Bird. Larry Bird's a much better model because Larry Bird was not terribly athletic. You can be Larry Bird with hardwork, but unless you're born with the athleticism Jordan had, no amount of hardwork will help.

[Schmidty]

Sounds good to me, but I feel like I'm to blame since he logged on about 4 AM EST this morning, just about two hours before I corrected my mistake.

Edit--Thanks for putting Michael Jordan under basketball instead of baseball. :)

I was tempted. ;)

[Buccaneer]

You're helping me flesh out my thoughts a bit. I think it's certainly possible that Jordan had a negative influence on players who followed him because people tried to imitate him but failed because none of them have his talent and none of them work as hard as he did to be that good.

I think NBA players going to the Olympics has been a fascinating barometer for the sport. The 1992 was so dominant that many people including myself though that the rest of the world would take a few more generations to catch up. It actuality, it took about 10 years. The Mavs and Spurs were referenced as two teams doing things right -- I don't think it's a mistake those teams have key players from other countries. Whereas American players try to be Michael Jordan, European players try to be Larry Bird. Larry Bird's a much better model because Larry Bird was not terribly athletic. You can be Larry Bird with hardwork, but unless you're born with the athleticism Jordan had, no amount of hardwork will help.
I agree with all of your thoughts.

[vex]

With the 1.8 selection in the 2006 Best Athletes in History, the vex's select:

Bo Jackson - Wildcard(Football & Baseball)


At McAdory High School in McCalla, Ala., Jackson claimed two state decathlon championships.

Was Originally drafted by the New York Yankees in the 1982 draft in the 2nd round, but turned down their contract offer to accept a football scholarship at Auburn where he would win the Heisman.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers made Jackson the first selection of the 1986 NFL draft. But Jackson declined because he wanted to play major league baseball.

Jackson was the first athlete named to play in the All-Star Game of two major sports.

And who could forget, Tecmo Bowl.

[Schmidty]

With the 1.8 selection in the 2006 Best Athletes in History, the vex's select:

Bo Jackson - Wildcard(Football & Baseball)


At McAdory High School in McCalla, Ala., Jackson claimed two state decathlon championships.

Was Originally drafted by the New York Yankees in the 1982 draft in the 2nd round, but turned down their contract offer to accept a football scholarship at Auburn where he would win the Heisman.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers made Jackson the first selection of the 1986 NFL draft. But Jackson declined because he wanted to play major league baseball.

Jackson was the first athlete named to play in the All-Star Game of two major sports.

And who could forget, Tecmo Bowl.

Ok, so which sport are you choosing him in?

[vex]

Both, that's why he's in as a wildcard.

Or will that not work? Just figured it really didn't matter, but if one has to be chosen, football.

[ThunderingHERD]

Both, that's why he's in as a wildcard.

Or will that not work? Just figured it really didn't matter, but if one has to be chosen, football.

Forget Baseball or Football. Wild card him for Tecmo Bowl.

[Schmidty]

Both, that's why he's in as a wildcard.

Or will that not work? Just figured it really didn't matter, but if one has to be chosen, football.

No that works, we just need to specify what exact category we want to put them into.

[Travis]

Figures, I was really hoping Bo would fall to me, nice pick.

With 1 (9) I'll select Jesse Owens (Other)

[Schmidty]

Figures, I was really hoping Bo would fall to me, nice pick.

With 1 (9) I'll select Jesse Owens (Other)

Ok, thanks.

Please remember to put your selection in bold next time. :)

[oykib]

Figures, I was really hoping Bo would fall to me, nice pick.

With 1 (9) I'll select Jesse Owens (Other)

Fall to you at 1(9)?!

I thought Bo was a bit of a reach myself. Jesse's a great pick. I probably would have sat on him 'til the second round. There aren't too many top tier guys in the big four. So I'd have probably tried to sneak Owens in later.

[Raiders Army]

Being a part of the Raider Nation, I'd go with Bo too, but I thought it was a reach. I would've picked another guy instead of him. Can't say who according to the rules and don't want to drop any hints.

[vtbub]

<b>Jack Nicklaus</b>

[Schmidty]

I'd like to remind people that if you know you won't be around for quite awhile, please PM someone far away from your picking position so that we can keep this moving.

[RPI-Fan]

If I were in the draft and had the #1, I would have taken Bo Jackson there.

[General Mike]

If I were in the draft and had the #1, I would have taken Bo Jackson there.

You must be smokin crack. :D

[Schmidty]

If I were in the draft and had the #1, I would have taken Bo Jackson there.

Why? This is a draft of the best athletes in history, not the most athletic.

[General Mike]

I see that you changed the rules again, but at one time it stated that people would vote for who they thought was best based on their own criteria.

relax.

[DeToxRox]

1.11 - Bobby Orr (Hockey)

[DaddyTorgo]

1-12 Wilt Chamberlain (basketball)
2-1 Pele (other - soccer)

[Raiders Army]

Nice pick. I was hoping Pele was going to go to me in the 2nd round, but no dice.

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah i agonized over who to take with that second pick. for obvious reasons i can't go over any of my other thoughts, but i was thinking of the other sports and then my eyes lit on the FM CD-case on my desk and i thought soccer...and i went PELE!

[Raiders Army]

Pele would've been my pick, but I have some other people in mind...and I have my last pick ready as well. :)

[vex]

Nice pick. I was hoping Pele was going to go to me in the 2nd round, but no dice.
ditto

[Schmidty]

Yeah, Pele was one of the guys I thought about when I got the idea for an "other" category.

[DeToxRox]

2.2 - Barry Sanders (Football)

[DaddyTorgo]

2.2 - Barry Sanders (Football)that was one of the names i was thinking about as my 2nd pick. LOL. great career, if he'd broken the rushing record i would have snagged him in a heartbeat.

you might want to bold that too detox, lest schmidty scold you

[DeToxRox]

that was one of the names i was thinking about as my 2nd pick. LOL. great career, if he'd broken the rushing record i would have snagged him in a heartbeat.

you might want to bold that too detox, lest schmidty scold you

Ha, touche.

As a Lions fan, and NFL fan in general, I don't know of anyone I'd rather watch play every game then Barry.

[Schmidty]

2.2 - Barry Sanders (Football)

DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Schmidty]

you might want to bold that too detox, lest schmidty scold you

I'm a fucking hard-ass. ;)

[DeToxRox]

DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!

I knew that was coming. :)

[Schmidty]

I knew that was coming. :)

He's all us Lions fans have to be proud about. :(

[Schmidty]

It's interesting how many people have already used their "other" pick. I wonder if there'll be a mad rush for a certain sport next.

[Raiders Army]

I was going to use the 2nd round for my other, but maybe not now.

[vtbub]

<b>Willie Mays</b>-Baseball

[Karlifornia]

<b>Willie Mays</b>-Baseball


Nice.

[DaddyTorgo]

Willie Mays-Baseballsolid choice. has every tool. bet you're going for the image of him making "the catch" as a visual to the voters hmmm?

[ThunderingHERD]

In Bo Jackson's best season in the NFL he had 950 yards and 4 TDs. His best season in MLB he batted .256 with 32 HRs.

[vtbub]

solid choice. has every tool. bet you're going for the image of him making "the catch" as a visual to the voters hmmm?
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[kcchief19]

In Bo Jackson's best season in the NFL he had 950 yards and 4 TDs. His best season in MLB he batted .256 with 32 HRs.Is the implication that the implication that he wasn't all that in either sport? those 32 homers were in 135 games and this was before the ball and everybody else was juiced when 32 homers in 135 games meant something.

He came back to baseball after not playing for a while and was in the majors 10 months after winning the Heisman. The only thing he struggled with was making contact at times, which was certainly due in part to his rush to the majors. He never played more than 11 games of football because he always missed the first month of the season playing baseball.

That said, Bo did things in both sports that few if any other players could do. The 99-yard touchdown run, throwing a pefect strike on the fly from the warning track to nail a runner tagging at third, running UP the outfield wall to catch a ball on the warning track on the dead run, hitting the longest home run in Royals Stadium history, winning a Heisman ... the list goes on. That doesn't even include the home run he hit one-handed when the ump didn't give him timeout.

One of my favorite Bo accomplishments is indicative of his injury marred career. Royals were playing in Yankee Stadium, and Bo stunned the crowd by hitting moon shot home runs his first three times up, the last two on consecutive pitches. Before he could bat a fourth time, he injured his shoulder making an unbelieveable diving catch in center field where he went parallel to the ground and held on to the ball. Jim Edmonds wishes he could make a catch like that. He misses a month or so and in his first game back he crushes the first pitch he sees for another home run.

Tecmo Bowl undersold this guy in my book.

[Raiders Army]

In professional sports, Bo was a highlight reel.

[Travis]

2.4 - Jerry Rice - Football

[vex]

2.5 - Carl Lewis - Other


-------------------------

Olympic Athlete of the Century


World Athlete of the Year:
(3) 1982, 1983, 1984
US Athlete of the Year:
(7) 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1988, 1991
World Athlete of the Decade:
1980's
Sullivan Award Winner (USA Amateur Athlete of the Year - awarded by the AAU):
1981
U. S. Olympic Team member:
1980, 1984, 1988, 1992 and 1996
Olympic Medals:
10 - 9 Gold (1984-100, 200, 4x100, Long Jump; 1988-100, Long Jump;
1992-Long Jump, 4x100; 1996-Long Jump); 1 Silver (1988-200)
U. S. World Championships Team member:
1983, 1987, 1991, 1993 and 1995 (did not compete-injured)
World Championship Medals:
10 - 8 Gold (1983-100, 4x100, Long Jump; 1987-100, Long Jump, 4x100;
1991-100,4x100); 1 Silver (1991-Long Jump); 1 Bronze (1993- 200)
World Cup Gold Medals:
1 (1981-Long Jump)
Pan American Games Medals:
3 - 2 Gold (1987-Long Jump, 4x100); 1 Bronze (1979-Long Jump)
US Olympic Trials Championships:
5 (1984-100, 200, Long Jump; 1988- 100, Long Jump)
US Outdoor Championships:
13 (100-5, 200-2, Long Jump-6)
US Indoor Championships:
4 (60y-1, Long Jump-3)
World Records:
11 (4x100-37.86 in 1983, 4x100-37.83 in 1984, 100-9.92 in 1988,
4x200-1:19.38 in 1989, =4x100-37.79 in 1991, 4x100-37.67 in 1991,
100-9.86 in 1991; 4x100-37.50 in 1991; 4x200-1:19.11 in 1992;
4x100-37.40 in 1992; 4x200-1:18.68 in 1994)
American Records:
16 (200-19.75 in 1983, 4x100-37.86 in 1983, 4x100-37.83 in 1984,
=100-9.93 in 1987, =100-9.93 in 1988, 100-9.92 in 1988,
4x200-1:19.38 in 1989, 4x100 [non-national teams]-37.93 in 1990,
4x100-37.79 in 1991, 4x100-37.67 in 1991; 100-9.86 in 1991,
4x100-37.50 in 1991; 4x200-1:19.11 in 1992; 4x100-37.40 in 1992;
4x100 (non-national teams)-37.79 in 1994; 4x200-1:18.68 in 1994)
World, American Indoor Records:
4 (LJ-8.49/27-101/4 in 1981,
LJ-8.56/28-1 in 1982, 60y-6.02 in 1983, LJ-8.79/28-101/4 in 1984)



In addition:

Though he didn't play college football, Lewis was drafted in the 12th round by the Dallas Cowboys as a wide receiver in 1984.

Two months later, the Chicago Bulls drafted him in the 10th round.

[ThunderingHERD]

Bo may have been a highlight reel. Michael Vick is a highlight reel--that doesn't make him one of the top 10 quarterbacks playing today, much less one of the greatest athletes of all time. The fact is that Bo never put together a single season that would come anywhere close to "top 100 greatest seasons" in either professional sport that he played. If you want to play the "what could have been game" you might as well play it with dozens of other guys as well--and it could certainly be more relevant with dozens of other guys, seeing as how Bo was already 28 years old when his hip brought him down.

[Raiders Army]

2.4 - Jerry Rice - Football

Dammit

[Raiders Army]

2.5 - Carl Lewis - Other
Dammit

[kcchief19]

Carl Lewis was next on my board. Looks like I'm fitting into the kind of guy that is looking beyond the Big 4 for the best athletes. With that in mind, my next selection is:

Lance Armstrong-Wildcard

[Raiders Army]

Carl Lewis was next on my board. Looks like I'm fitting into the kind of guy that is looking beyond the Big 4 for the best athletes. With that in mind, my next selection is:

Lance Armstrong-Wildcard
Dammit.

[Maple Leafs]

Schmidty, if I'm not around after you pick, please hold off on using my list for a little bit. I sent a pick to another participant to use this round.

[Schmidty]

Sorry for the 2 hour delay guys. Just woke up.

Sean - That's not a problem.

My pick will be coming up shortly.

[Schmidty]

Another tough choice, but I'll go with my favorite "historical" player:

2.7 Ty Cobb - Baseball

[vtbub]

ML up?

[Schmidty]

ML up?

Yep. He sent a list, but he said someone else had a more updated list for him.

[Maple Leafs]

2.8 Jackie Robinson, baseball

[kcchief19]

2.8 Jackie Robinson, baseballInteresting pick. Certainly a person who ranks high on a lot of greatest athletes lists.

To me it also raises a question as to what do we look for in a great athlete. Jackie Robinson was an athlete, no doubt. He had speed and he was a great baseball player. Probably could have been successful in football too. But almost everyone agrees that he was not the best player in the Negro Leagues at the time he broke the color barrier, and while he put up solid numbers, the fact that he entered the majors at 28 kept him from having a long career. And as good as he was in those 10 years in the majors, like in the Negro Leagues, there were guys better than him.

But he accomplished something that transcended sports and paved the way for minority athletes across the board -- and probably outside athletics as well. So do you consider social achievements part of athletic greatness?

I suppose I'm in that category, in that I strongly consider Jackie Robinson and drafted Lance Armstrong not merely for his athletic accomplishments but for the obstacle he overcame to achieve them.

[Maple Leafs]

I think my cards are on the table... with Ali and now Robinson, I'm looking for more than just "really good player" with my early picks. This may help or hurt me in the voting, we'll see.

[Schmidty]

I think my cards are on the table... with Ali and now Robinson, I'm looking for more than just "really good player" with my early picks. This may help or hurt me in the voting, we'll see.

So yor next pick will be Michelle Wie?

[Maple Leafs]

So yor next pick will be Michelle Wie?
Guy, shut up, no discussing future picks.

[TazFTW]

With the 9th pick in the 2nd round, Team Taz selects

Patrick Roy, Hockey

[kcchief19]

With the 9th pick in the 2nd round, Team Taz selects

Patrick Roy, HockeyYou must like the hockey. Nothing wrong with that.

[Karlifornia]

Even liking hockey..I could think of at least one other hockey player I would have taken over him. I suppose he may be the greatest goaltender of all time, though.

[vtbub]

Roy's a good value pick.

[TazFTW]

Even liking hockey..I could think of at least one other hockey player I would have taken over him. I suppose he may be the greatest goaltender of all time, though.
I know who you're thinking of and I decided to take Roy over him because Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time. Most important position on the ice.

[kcchief19]

I know who you're thinking of and I decided to take Roy over him because Roy is the greatest goaltender of all time. Most important position on the ice.In that regard, it is certainly a good selection. I'm an old school guy, so if I had to pick the greatest goalied of all-time I'd go with somebody like <name to be revealed later> but then again no one would know who the hell he was.

[Raiders Army]

My turn's coming up again! Can't wait!

Edit--And I get two picks...bam, bam.

[General Mike]

My turn's coming up again! Can't wait!

Not before I steal your guy. The you steal the guy I want in the 3rd round. :(

[Raiders Army]

Not before I steal your guy. The you steal the guy I want in the 3rd round. :(
I have three guys in mind right now in two different sports...steal away. :cool:

[DaddyTorgo]

my turn isn't coming up again FOREVER. I feel like it'll be Tuesday night before I pick again. Jeezus.

edit:

and i think we need to do a "summary" sort of thing for people to post at the bottom of their picks, because having to scroll through and see who was picked/keep up with it on a pick-by-pick basis has gotta be killing others and will kill me i'm sure

[Raiders Army]

Post #1 seems to be updated pretty well, thanks to Schmidty. I just scroll until I see when I'm supposed to pick. Just me, I guess. *shrug*

Edit-And I see General Mike and Herd are both in the thread, so I may be passing it back to them here in a few minutes. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

Post #1 seems to be updated pretty well, thanks to Schmidty. I just scroll until I see when I'm supposed to pick. Just me, I guess. *shrug*

Edit-And I see General Mike and Herd are both in the thread, so I may be passing it back to them here in a few minutes. :)oh. i wasn't seeing that post #1 is updated. probably because i have my default settings setup so that it starts with "last post first"

[MIJB#19]

Why? This is a draft of the best athletes in history, not the most athletic.I see only two of them taken so far. ;) Owens was a good value pick at 1.9, but Lewis in the 2nd round was kind of a reach, I think.

Pele in the second round? Steal of the draft if this wasn't on a US sports centered board. In that regard, it's even more interesting that Lance Armstrong goes as the first cyclist. From a historical point of view, it's pretty hard to even argue that he belongs in the all-time top5 of his sport. It's pretending like cycling didn't start until the mid 1990's. But in this crowd, I think Armstrong in the second round is a pretty good value pick and worth a lot more than Pele taken half a round earlier.

Gretzky #2 overall? I wouldn't expect an ice hockey player to go that high, but then, it's Gretzky, he's got the legend going of being the best all time and he's from a recent history. He should be the second best valued player behind Michael Jordan.

[Schmidty]

In that regard, it's even more interesting that Lance Armstrong goes as the first cyclist. From a historical point of view, it's pretty hard to even argue that he belongs in the all-time top5 of his sport. It's pretending like cycling didn't start until the mid 1990's.

Please explain further, because as a non-cycling fan, I don't understand the history.

[Raiders Army]

Pele in the second round? Steal of the draft if this wasn't on a US sports centered board.
I thought he would definitely go earlier. He was arguably the best player in his sport that was worldwide.

Edit--I'll be back in a little while to see if Mike and Herd have picked.

[DaddyTorgo]

i debated Pele at 2 (1) but then I realized that there are many intelligent sports fans on this board and hopefully they will outweigh those who do not realize the greatness of Pele.

[Schmidty]

Just for people that have missed it, you can easily find who has been picked and who has the next pick, by looking at the 1st post on th page.

[General Mike]

am I on the clock? I thought I wasn't but Now I think I am. help?

[TazFTW]

am I on the clock? I thought I wasn't but Now I think I am. help?
Yes you are on the clock.

[General Mike]

sorry for the delay ladies and gentlemen.

2.10 Gordie Howe (Hockey)

[ThunderingHERD]

2.11 <b>Mario Lemieux</b> (Hockey)

[oykib]

I don't think Carl Lewis was a reach. I think he's third behind Owens and Thorpe as a track and field athlete. And when you get down to it, Track and Field is athletics. Well, that and combat sports, which makes Ali a great pick,as well.

With the second round being almost over, I have to say that with the exception of Jordan, Ruth, and Gretsky I'd have stayed away from the big four in the first few rounds. There is too much value in those because everyone knows who those players are. The 'other' area has large dropoffs because no one knows any soccer players besides Pele. This is a popularity contest after all.

[DaddyTorgo]

grrrr...i have so long to go before i pick again!!!

[Raiders Army]

My turn (and DaddyT, know how you feel). I'm going against what okyib is saying and going with my gut on these picks.

Round 2.12: Joe Montana, Football.

Unlike RBs, the QB touches the ball every down (well, maybe not 4th). The Catch was thrown by Montana. Won a national title at Notre Dame as well as Superbowls (beating another QB who had thrown for a league-high 48 TDs in the regular season).

Round 3.1: Nolan Ryan, Baseball.

Hall of Fame plaque states: A fierce competitor and one of baseball's most intimidating figures on the pitching mound for four decades. His overpowering fastball and unparalleled longevity produced 324 victories and a host of major league records. Lifetime benchmarks include 5,714 strikeouts, seven no-hitters and a12 one-hitters in 27 seasons pitched. Led league in strikeouts 11 times and fanned 300 batters in a season on six occasions, including a record 383 in 1973. Strikeout victims totaled 1,176 different players. A Texas legend whose widespread popularity extended far beyond his native state.

[ThunderingHERD]

3.2 <b>Wilt Chamberlain</b>

[Raiders Army]

3.2 <b>Wilt Chamberlain</b>
Daddy took Wilt with pick 1.12

[DaddyTorgo]

wilt is way past gone. round one baby! how can you not pick earlier a guy who was a track star early in life and then became the greatest NBA player of all time, revolutionized the way the game was played, went to the All-Star game nearly every year (16 or 17 times?).

[ThunderingHERD]

whoops, sorry. I'm an idiot. 1 sec and i'll pick

[ThunderingHERD]

Lets try this again:

<b>Ted Williams</b>.

[General Mike]

3.3 Magic Johnson (basketball)

[oykib]

My turn (and DaddyT, know how you feel). I'm going against what okyib is saying and going with my gut on these picks.

Round 2.12: Joe Montana, Football.

Unlike RBs, the QB touches the ball every down (well, maybe not 4th). The Catch was thrown by Montana. Won a national title at Notre Dame as well as Superbowls (beating another QB who had thrown for a league-high 48 TDs in the regular season).

Good Pick. I'd probably have waited as there are other QBs that give you about as much value-- as well as there being players left in Football that are clear #1s at their respective positions. But you can't really argue with Montana.


Round 3.1: Nolan Ryan, Baseball.

Hall of Fame plaque states: A fierce competitor and one of baseball's most intimidating figures on the pitching mound for four decades. His overpowering fastball and unparalleled longevity produced 324 victories and a host of major league records. Lifetime benchmarks include 5,714 strikeouts, seven no-hitters and a12 one-hitters in 27 seasons pitched. Led league in strikeouts 11 times and fanned 300 batters in a season on six occasions, including a record 383 in 1973. Strikeout victims totaled 1,176 different players. A Texas legend whose widespread popularity extended far beyond his native state.

Can't go with you here, though. There are at least ten pitchers that were so far ahead of Ryan that he isn't even in the same argument with them. That's not to mention the tens of pitchers where it's arguable, but are still better than Ryan.

[TazFTW]

3.3 Magic Johnson (basketball)
:mad:

[TazFTW]

dola

With the fourth pick of the third round, Team Taz selects

Joe Louis, Other/Boxing

[Raiders Army]

Can't go with you here, though. There are at least ten pitchers that were so far ahead of Ryan that he isn't even in the same argument with them. That's not to mention the tens of pitchers where it's arguable, but are still better than Ryan.
Not that it's a good barometer, but Nolan Ryan was voted into the Hall of Fame with 98.79% of the ballots. There has only been one player in the history of baseball with a greater percentage. Some others who were picked in this draft's percentages:

Ty Cobb 98.2%
Babe Ruth 95.1%
Willie Mays 94.7%
Ted Williams 93.4%

[Maple Leafs]

I'm badly out of my element when it comes to basketball -- I just don't follow it. I think that means I need to make some picks there early, when I've actually heard of the guy, rather than try to wait until the end.

3.5 Bill Russell, basketball

[MIJB#19]

Please explain further, because as a non-cycling fan, I don't understand the history.I won't go into names, although for the voting purpose of this draft, I doubt those names would even make a difference.

There are a handful to a dozen cyclists who have won a lot more than Armstrong has done over his 12, 12 1/2 years, shown a lot more dominance than he did. It's widely accepted that the general idea behind Armstrong's plan to win Le Tour and hide the rest of the season makes his record tainted, compared to pre mid 1990's, when the top riders raced-to-win in more than just one race. The seven wins are spectacular, but not so spectacular compared to riders who manage(d) to win everwhere and in every month (from March through October).

The cycling season basically consists over several great races and sorts of races. Le Tour is one race, but the tour of Spain and tour of Italy are generally regarded almost equally important. Then there's the annual World Championship race and there are a dozen of important one-day races (until 2004 combined into the World Cup calendar), of which I believe Paris- Roubaix (the kobble(?) stone race) is best known in the USA. Throughout the history of cycling, riders showed up everywhere and the best riders in the end won the most races.

The past 15 years the 'game' changed. By the hand of Lance Armstrong, riders have more and more started to pick out one or two big races to 'peak' and win those. Armstrong and a few other top riders focused on Le Tour, some focused on the tour of Italy (because they ride for an Italian team, it's more important to the sponsors) or the tour of Spain (same reasons as the Italian teams argument). Others focus on the one-day events, where now-a-days you won't even see the top10-15 tour riders ride-to-win. In effect, at the end of the season, the top10 in the three big tours and in the disbanded World Cup could all be different.

On a historical base, Armstrong did very little to prove he's the all-time best cyclist, but in the end it's tough to even argue against him being the best ever to focus on the biggest of all races and manage to win it seven years in a row. The previous rider to win 'Le Tour' five times in a row did show up in the other great races and a couple of times won the tours of Italy and France in the same season. There are others who won the tour of France five times and also managed to win the tours of Italy and/or Spain a couple of times and also win a dozen or more one-day 'classics' and several World Championship races. I suppose it's some sort of 'era' argument and in the end Armstrong did show he was the very best in the 'modern era'.

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm badly out of my element when it comes to basketball -- I just don't follow it. I think that means I need to make some picks there early, when I've actually heard of the guy, rather than try to wait until the end.

3.5 Bill Russell, basketball
Good pick. Easily one fo the best in NBA history. He's got what? 11 rings in 12 seasons?

[vex]

Good pick. Easily one fo the best in NBA history. He's got what? 11 rings in 12 seasons?
11 out of 13, but close.

However, he only averaged 15.1 PPG.

[SnDvls]

after 2 1/2 rounds I think the wildcard & other categories might determine who "wins" IMO.

I think everyone will get a good player in the other areas to even things out. I'm still reserving judgement until the end though.

[vtbub]

11 out of 13, but close.

However, he only averaged 15.1 PPG.
He found offense boring and loved defense. I'm paraprasing here, but he said any one can shhot, but not any one can rebound. Russell was a great pick.

[Schmidty]

I couldn't stand this guy when he was playing, but at this point I think he's a great value pick:

3.6 Larry Bird - Basketball

[Schmidty]

11 out of 13, but close.

However, he only averaged 15.1 PPG.

Ben Wallace only averages 8 ppg, but he's one of the best players in the NBA. Ppg definitely aren't everything. In fact, I'd put them below rebounds and assists in importance. Rebounds gives your team more possessions, so you have more opportunities to score throughout the game. Even if you shoot a lower %, but pound your opponent off the glass, you will likely win. Assists are important because it shows how unselfish your team is, and how many high % shots you are getting.

[kcchief19]

Eh ... since the pool in one sport is getting a bit thin, I'll go for another character guy:

Mark Messier - hockey

Wayne Gretzky doesn't have his name on the Cup with Messier next to it, and Messier did him one better by breaking The Curse. At the top of most career leaderboards. This guy bled hockey.

[Maple Leafs]

Crap... if this keeps up, by the time my next pick comes around there will only be Leafs left.

[kcchief19]

He found offense boring and loved defense. I'm paraprasing here, but he said any one can shhot, but not any one can rebound. Russell was a great pick.When Red Auerbach drafted him, the first thing he told Russell is, "I don't want you to shoot. We've got shooters. I want you to rebound. I'm going to count rebounds as baskets for you."

That in a nutshell is why made Russell a premier rebounder and made the Celtics almost unbeatable in the '60s. Wilt had the points, Russell had the rings.

[kcchief19]

Crap... if this keeps up, by the time my next pick comes around there will only be Leafs left.Or, almost as bad, Blackhawks.

<shudder>

[vex]

3.8 - Oscar Robertson - Basketball

Averaged 25.7 PPG, 9.5 APG, and 7.5 RPG, over his career.

Not to mention the feat of averaging a triple-double over an entire season, his second season at that.

[Travis]

3.9 - Babe Didrikson Zaharias - Wildcard

I'm assuming that even though it isn't a requirement, that we are still eligible to select a female athlete. If not, let me know and I'll repick.

Story 1 (http://www.e-sports.com/articles/214/1/The-20th-Century's-greatest-athlete)

Story 2 (http://www.famoustexans.com/babedidrikson.htm)

Story 3 (http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/people_of_century/sports/didrikson.html)

A few quotes about the lesser known Babe:

"She stunned the athletic world on July 16, 1932, with her performance at the national amateur track meet for women in Evanston, Illinois. Didrikson entered the meet as the sole member of the Golden Cyclone team and by herself won the national women's team championship by scoring 30 points.

The Illinois Women's Athletic Club, which had more than 20 members, scored a total of 22 points to place second. In all, Didrikson won six gold medals and broke four world records in a single afternoon.

Her performance was the most amazing feat by any individual, male or female, in the annals of track-and-field history. Victories in the javelin throw, hurdles, and high jump qualified her to enter the 1932 Olympic Games in Los Angeles.

At Los Angeles, Didrikson won two gold medals and a silver medal, set a world's record, and was the co-holder of two others. She won the javelin event and the 80-meter hurdles and came in second in the high-jump event amid a controversy that saw two rulings of the judges go against her because she went over the bar head first, a foul at that time.

Due to her performances in track and field, she was voted Woman Athlete of the Year in 1932 by the Associated Press. During her illustrious track and field career she would be entered in 634 events and win all but 12."

---------------------------

"In 1934, Didrikson went to Florida and appeared in major league exhibition baseball games during spring training. In one game she pitched to and struck out the famous Joe DiMaggio. "

---------------------------

"During the 1946-1947 seasons, Zaharias won 17 straight tournaments, including the British Women's Amateur in which she became the first American to win it since it's inception. This string of consecutive tournament victories is a record that has never been equaled by man or woman.

In the summer of 1947, Zaharias turned professional once again and in 1948, she helped organize the Ladies Professional Golfer's Association (LPGA) in order to help popularize women's golf and increase tournament prize money. During the next several years, the LPGA grew in stature and Zaharias became the leading money winner on the women's professional circuit."

---------------------------

"In the spring of 1953, doctors discovered that Zaharias had cancer. She underwent a colostomy to remove cancerous tissue.

Zaharius played in a golf tournament only 14 weeks after the surgery. She played well enough the remainder of the year to win the Ben Hogan Comeback of the Year Award.

In 1954, Zaharias won five tournaments, including the United States Women's Open, and earned her sixth Woman Athlete of the Year Award. "

---------------------------

Sorry for the relatively lengthy backup arguements, but I know this'll probably be a pick that a lot of people won't necessarily be familiar with so figured I'd better give a lot of info up front to help myself out ;)

[Schmidty]

3.9 - Babe Didrikson Zaharias - Wildcard

I'm assuming that even though it isn't a requirement, that we are still eligible to select a female athlete. If not, let me know and I'll repick.

Story 1 (http://www.e-sports.com/articles/214/1/The-20th-Century's-greatest-athlete)

Story 2 (http://www.famoustexans.com/babedidrikson.htm)

Story 3 (http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/people_of_century/sports/didrikson.html)

A few quotes about the lesser known Babe:

"She stunned the athletic world on July 16, 1932, with her performance at the national amateur track meet for women in Evanston, Illinois. Didrikson entered the meet as the sole member of the Golden Cyclone team and by herself won the national women's team championship by scoring 30 points.

The Illinois Women's Athletic Club, which had more than 20 members, scored a total of 22 points to place second. In all, Didrikson won six gold medals and broke four world records in a single afternoon.

Her performance was the most amazing feat by any individual, male or female, in the annals of track-and-field history. Victories in the javelin throw, hurdles, and high jump qualified her to enter the 1932 Olympic Games in Los Angeles.

At Los Angeles, Didrikson won two gold medals and a silver medal, set a world's record, and was the co-holder of two others. She won the javelin event and the 80-meter hurdles and came in second in the high-jump event amid a controversy that saw two rulings of the judges go against her because she went over the bar head first, a foul at that time.

Due to her performances in track and field, she was voted Woman Athlete of the Year in 1932 by the Associated Press. During her illustrious track and field career she would be entered in 634 events and win all but 12."

---------------------------

"In 1934, Didrikson went to Florida and appeared in major league exhibition baseball games during spring training. In one game she pitched to and struck out the famous Joe DiMaggio. "

---------------------------

"During the 1946-1947 seasons, Zaharias won 17 straight tournaments, including the British Women's Amateur in which she became the first American to win it since it's inception. This string of consecutive tournament victories is a record that has never been equaled by man or woman.

In the summer of 1947, Zaharias turned professional once again and in 1948, she helped organize the Ladies Professional Golfer's Association (LPGA) in order to help popularize women's golf and increase tournament prize money. During the next several years, the LPGA grew in stature and Zaharias became the leading money winner on the women's professional circuit."

---------------------------

"In the spring of 1953, doctors discovered that Zaharias had cancer. She underwent a colostomy to remove cancerous tissue.

Zaharius played in a golf tournament only 14 weeks after the surgery. She played well enough the remainder of the year to win the Ben Hogan Comeback of the Year Award.

In 1954, Zaharias won five tournaments, including the United States Women's Open, and earned her sixth Woman Athlete of the Year Award. "

---------------------------

Sorry for the relatively lengthy backup arguements, but I know this'll probably be a pick that a lot of people won't necessarily be familiar with so figured I'd better give a lot of info up front to help myself out ;)

And she was she was #10 on ESPN's Top Athletes of the Century List. ;)

[Huckleberry]

And she was a Texan. You've got my vote. :D

[Maple Leafs]

The Maple Leafs trade their fourth and sixth round picks to vtbub for his third and eighth round picks.

The Maple Leafs use pick 3.10 to draft Walter Payton, football.

[vtbub]

Confirmed

[Raiders Army]

Eh ... since the pool in one sport is getting a bit thin, I'll go for another character guy:

Mark Messier - hockey

Wayne Gretzky doesn't have his name on the Cup with Messier next to it, and Messier did him one better by breaking The Curse. At the top of most career leaderboards. This guy bled hockey.
Nice pick. Right now, other than my own team (which I'm prejudiced towards), I like your team the best so far.

[Raiders Army]

The Maple Leafs trade their fourth and sixth round picks to vtbub for his third and eighth round picks.

The Maple Leafs use pick 3.10 to draft Walter Payton, football.
Strange strategy to trade picks at this point when there are so many players left on the board, but nice pick. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

okay i'm ready for my snaked picks. as soon as 3 (11) goes I'll have mine up!

[DeToxRox]

3.11 - Lawerence Taylor (football)

[Raiders Army]

3.11 - Lawerence Taylor (football)
Damn. Was going to take him with my next pick. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

3 (12) - Eddy Merckx (wildcard...cycling)

4 (1) - Bobby Hull (Hockey)



Career Info for Merckx

Baron Eddy Merckx is considered by many to be the greatest cyclist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclist) of all-time, and an icon of his sport equal to the likes of Muhammad Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali), Michael Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan) or Pelé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9). He is five-time champion of the two most important races in professional cycling, the Tour de France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_France) and the Giro d'Italia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_d%27Italia), is one of only four cyclists to have won all three of the Grand Tours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_%28cycling%29) (Tour, Giro and Vuelta a España (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a)), and one of only two men to have won the Triple Crown of Cycling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Crown_of_Cycling) (Tour, Giro, and the World Cycling Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cycling_Championship)) in the same year. In addition, he is one of only three riders (all Belgian) to have won all five classic cycle races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_cycle_races) at least once during his career, and won the season-long Super Prestige Pernod International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_World_Cup) competition a record seven consecutive times. Overall, Merckx entered 1582 road races in his 13 year professional career, and won 525—an astonishing winning rate of 35.5%. He dominated both single-day and stage races during his career, a rarity in recent cycling.

Significant victories by race



5x Tour de France, 34 stage wins
5x Giro d'Italia, 24 stage wins
1x Vuelta a España, 6 stage wins


Other tours



1x Tour de Suisse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Suisse)
2x Ronde van België/Tour de Belgique




Classic cycle races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_cycle_races)



7x Milan-San Remo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan-San_Remo)
5x Liège-Bastogne-Liège (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li%C3%A8ge-Bastogne-Li%C3%A8ge)
3x Paris-Roubaix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Roubaix)
2x Giro di Lombardia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_di_Lombardia)
2x Tour of Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_of_Flanders)




World titles



3x World Championships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cycling_Championship)
1x Amateur World Championships


Track races



17 six-day races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-day_racing)

Bobby Hull

Let's not forget to add in Hull's WHL career stats to the package, which leaves him with 913 goals, 895 assists in 1474 games (1808 pts). And the fact that he was the marquee draw for the WHL in its infancy.

[DeToxRox]

4.2 - Cal Ripken Jr (Baseball)

[vtbub]

<b>Emmitt Smith-Football</b>

[Raiders Army]

<b>Emmitt Smith-Football</b>
Nice pick, but does it include his offensive line? Just kidding. :D

[DaddyTorgo]

Emmitt Smith-Footballdrat. gotta cross him off my list of people i would have picked

[oykib]

4.2 - Cal Ripken Jr (Baseball)

That's almost as much of a reach as Nolan Ryan, maybe more. The problem with both of these guys is that, when they were in their primes, had you asked who the best player in baseball was, nobody would likely have named either of them.

Regarding other picks made since my last snipe from the peanut gallery...

Loved the Zaharias and Robertson picks. They'd have been players i'd have picked around this spot.

Howe was a great pick. With him you're getting a clear #1. At least for his era of hockey. There's no way Gretzky would've been as good as him in his era. Of course I'd probably have to say that the reverse is also true.

Messier was good. But I'm a Rangers fan and may be a bit biased. There was probably another NHLer that was better than Mess still on the board.

Can't argue with LT, as he revolutionized the sport. But what is Payton, like the third or fourth NFL RB taken? Not that he's the fourth best, but I'd have gone for a clear #1 at a position first. The same goes for Smith-- only more emphatically.

Russell was a great pick as well.

[DeToxRox]

I understand about Ripken .. but as far as athlete .. what he did with his streak is just unreal.

It takes a true athlete to be able to do that, and I think no one will ever break that one.

[Maple Leafs]

But what is Payton, like the third or fourth NFL RB taken? Not that he's the fourth best, but I'd have gone for a clear #1 at a position first.
But who? Remember, this is a popular vote. QB is the glamor position, but there's no clear #1 guy there. Rice is already taken. Taylor is a good pick. Beyond that, who can you take that's #1 at a position and meant more to his team (and will get more votes) than the #3 RB? You could make an argument for some DEs, but I don't think even the clearcut best ever OL, DB, DT or kicker (if there was one) is a good value pick at this stage.

[Travis]

4.4 - Hank Aaron - Baseball

[vex]

4.5 - Joe DiMaggio - Baseball

[ThunderingHERD]

4.5 - Joe DiMaggio - Baseball

:rolleyes:
most overrated baseball player ever.

[vex]

:rolleyes:
most overrated baseball player ever.
Yeah, you're right.

Lifetime .325 average, .978 fielding %, 3 time MVP, 13 time allstar, hit 361 HRs while only striking out 369 times in his career.

Oh, yeah, some 56 game hitting streak.

Overrated?

Hardly.

[Raiders Army]

4.4 - Hank Aaron - Baseball



Crap. Nice pick.

[oykib]

But who? Remember, this is a popular vote. QB is the glamor position, but there's no clear #1 guy there. Rice is already taken. Taylor is a good pick. Beyond that, who can you take that's #1 at a position and meant more to his team (and will get more votes) than the #3 RB? You could make an argument for some DEs, but I don't think even the clearcut best ever OL, DB, DT or kicker (if there was one) is a good value pick at this stage.

Well... I'm not supposed to say who. But there is a QB with unparalleled credentials still on the board. But that's not where I'm going.

If you're taking a RB, why not wait until near the end of the draft? There's not much to seperate the guys that are left. There's no value in RBs this early in the draft. I think Brown's your clear #1, with maybe Barry at #2. But after that, there are a lot of guys that are bunched together.

If you're going big four-- especially big three-- early, you've got to get a clear #1 for value. It's where we are all knowledgeable. The value picks later should be pretty close. But can you really greatly seperate Smith and Payton?

LT is a great pick because there's no other outside linebacker in the same league as him. No one even close as a matter of fact.

Staying with the football theme, I read an article that the four highest paid positions in the NFL are QB, DL, OL, and CB. Of those positions, only QB has been taken so far. That means that the best player at three of the four most important positions are still on the board while five players have already been taken at a less important position.

[Maple Leafs]

If you're going big four-- especially big three-- early, you've got to get a clear #1 for value. It's where we are all knowledgeable.
And yet you like the Messier pick, when he's light years behind Lemieux and Gretzky at the position at a sport with a much smaller following? At least with the RBs there's some debate. You wouldn't find a hockey fan alive who'd take Messier over Gretzky. (Well, OK, Stan Fishler, but he doesn't count).

[oykib]

And yet you like the Messier pick, when he's light years behind Lemieux and Gretzky at the position at a sport with a much smaller following? At least with the RBs there's some debate. You wouldn't find a hockey fan alive who'd take Messier over Gretzky. (Well, OK, Stan Fishler, but he doesn't count).

I admitted my bias toward Mess. But if you ask who was the greatest captain in Hockey, the answer is Messier. The stats put him behind Gretsky,
Lemieux, and Howe. He also went behind all of those guys. But most people give him a bonus for his leadership skills.

I'm also going on the assumption that many people's Hockey knowledge only goes three to six players deep. Considering that you need two of them, it's not nearly as much of a reach if you get a guy who everyone nows and respects.

[kcchief19]

In keeping with my current trend ...

Lou Gehrig - Baseball

The original Ironman, only better. A career .340 with 493 homeruns who was forced out of baseball at just 35. Here's the thing I always considered remarkable about Gehrig: The average ALS victim lives 2-5 years, and Gehrig died just over two years of his official diagnosis. Given his youthfullness and strength, it's likely that Gehrig at least was suffering the effects of the disease in 1938 when he hit .295 and completed his 13th straight season of 100 runs scored and 100 RBI. But there are accounts that Gehrig was reporting symptoms indicative of ALS in 1937 when he hit .351 with 37 homers and 159 RBI. That means he was playing at an all-star, even a near MVP caliber, level all the while his muscles were being shredded.

[vtbub]

<b>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar</b>-Basketball

[Maple Leafs]

In keeping with my current trend ...
White people?

[kcchief19]

I'm also going on the assumption that many people's Hockey knowledge only goes three to six players deep. Considering that you need two of them, it's not nearly as much of a reach if you get a guy who everyone nows and respects.That was EXACTLY my reasoning in taking Messier when I did. I felt there was much more value in taking someone like Messier who may be distant behind Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux but is still arguably one of the top five hockey players in terms of achievement, name recognition and popularity. I got Messier as the 7th hockey player taken, and I think that even the 24th football or baseball player taken will be on par or better in value.

Cal Ripken may prove to be a more popular pick than Gehrig given their eras, but to me it's crazy to rate Ripken ahead of him. They were both know for exactly the same thing in terms of playing streaks, but Gehrig was simply significantly better. Had he not been stricken with ALS, I think Gehrig easily clears 600 homers and probably gets close to 3,500 hits.

[kcchief19]

White people?Not exactly the trend I was noting. Great. Now I'll look like a fool when I take <black hockey="" goal="" name="" deleted="" because="" grant="" fuhr="" has="" been="" selected="" yet=""> [Grant Fuhr's name deleted because he hasn't been selected yet] with my next pick.</black>

[Maple Leafs]

Not exactly the trend I was noting. Great. Now I'll look like a fool when I take <black hockey="" goal="" name="" deleted="" because="" grant="" fuhr="" has="" been="" selected="" yet=""> [Grant Fuhr's name deleted because he hasn't been selected yet] with my next pick.</black>
Oh, I see... so you can welcome a black man into your clubhouse only if he covers his face with a mask? Is that how it is?

[Schmidty]

<b>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar</b>-Basketball

Bub, it's my pick first. This puts me in a bad postion as that was my pick.

[Schmidty]

Now I don't know what the hell to do. I look bad if I take my first choice (Jabbar), but it's really not my fault. Give me a few minutes. I guess I'll pick someone else. :(

[Johnny93g]

People, there is no s Gretzky, that is all, continue with this entertaining draft

[oykib]

<b>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar</b>-Basketball

And the last great basketball player goes off the board.

[Schmidty]

And the last great basketball player goes off the board.

And it pisses me off since it was my pick and the pick I was about to make. :mad:

I feel like waiting to pick until I get more feedback on what I should do.

[vtbub]

My mistake, your pick.

[vtbub]

Schmidty, take him, no big whoop

[Maple Leafs]

I think Schmidty should take the basketball player, but give vtbub the former Dolphin's running back.

[Schmidty]

My mistake, your pick.

Bah, it was an honest mistake. Even though it's not really fair, I look bad now if I take Jabbar.

Well, I guess I'll pick one of the greatest QBs ever:

4.7 Johnny Unitas - Football

[Schmidty]

Go ahead and repost your pick Bubster.

[vtbub]

U have a pm.

[vtbub]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-Basketball
Deja Vu.

[MIJB#19]

Maybe Vtbub should be forced to trade up one pick for picking ahead of time. ;)

[kcchief19]

Oh, I see... so you can welcome a black man into your clubhouse only if he covers his face with a mask? Is that how it is?Only if he also carries a first basemen's mitt.

[TazFTW]

With the 9th pick in the fourth round, Team Taz selects

Roger Clemens, baseball

[MIJB#19]

3 (12) - Eddy Merckx (wildcard...cycling)

[Resume]

That's what I ment when I said Lance Armstrong is clearly not the best ever.
There are a few more who can be claimed to be better all-time than Armstrong, but it's widely unaccepted to even question whether Eddy Merckx was the best ever.

I hope I didn't trigger that one though.

[General Mike]

4.10 Reggie White, football

Take that MotherFers.