Patriots message board

[tucker rocky]

hxxp://boards.boston.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=bc-patriots

Good and bad reads.

[Tekneek]

I *love* the one about the refs. I wonder if they make the same rants when the Patriots get the benefit of bad officials, which has happened in the playoffs as well. At least there were some people in there trying to put it in the proper perspective.

I still don't understand why Pats fans (at least the ones making all the noise) portray Peyton Manning as "the golden boy" and try to act as if Brady gets no love. The man gets all kinds of respect all over the league and on every NFL show. They are not even trying to look at the world objectively. They are intent on portraying their team as having to fight against the entire world and never getting any respect. It made sense when they got that first one, but it is nowhere close to reality today.

[tucker rocky]

The Pats were good at first, but when the team is pushed at you week in and out, it gets old.
Hearing the same tired comments about Brady and the rest of team is old hat.

Next.

[Cuckoo]

Did anyone read Gene Wojciechowski's article on ESPN? I don't know a lot about his allegiances, but he sounded really bitter. Is he pro-Pats, anti-Denver or did he just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

[Tekneek]

I don't know if he has a history of Patriot-love, but it comes off as bitter to me. He is trying to say New England lost rather than Denver won. Sour grapes.

[stevew]

You guys should have seen some of the Bengals boards last week. A lot of the cats went off the deep end.

[tucker rocky]

You guys should have seen some of the Bengals boards last week. A lot of the cats went off the deep end.

I can imagine it went something like: "goodbye cruel world".

[tucker rocky]

In the thread "REFS", blaming the refs and nfl not wanting the Pats in the SB.

[tucker rocky]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2006/0115/20060115_022926_sp15bronxphotos3.jpg

Any opinions on where the ball is?
GL, or 1 yrd line.

[Arles]

That was a tough call, but it's one of those I don't think you can reverse what was called on the field (either way). Phil Simms geometry aside, there really wasn't much anyone could do after the play to get a definitive result. Still, you gotta love the hustle by Watson - that guy could play for my team anyday with that kind of determination.

The PI call was rough (I'm sure Raiders fans won't be all that upset), but Brady just never seemed to click last night. The Pats really can't run the ball, so if Brady can't get in a groove, they struggle to score points. Still, I think the special teams turnovers were devastating. The NE D was playing well, but it kills you to make a stop or have a kickoff to your guys only to see a turnover that forces you back on the field.

[clintl]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2006/0115/20060115_022926_sp15bronxphotos3.jpg

Any opinions on where the ball is?
GL, or 1 yrd line.

I'd say 1 yard line, although that shot lacks the depth perception to tell exactly where the ball is relative to the players.

[Logan]

Did anyone read Gene Wojciechowski's article on ESPN? I don't know a lot about his allegiances, but he sounded really bitter. Is he pro-Pats, anti-Denver or did he just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

No, he's just a prick.

[TroyF]

Did anyone read Gene Wojciechowski's article on ESPN? I don't know a lot about his allegiances, but he sounded really bitter. Is he pro-Pats, anti-Denver or did he just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

That was garbage. I couldn't believe what I was reading. It sounded like a bitter Patriots fan crying about how the Pats gave teh game away and how Denver should be ashamed of getting the win.

What a dirtbag.

[kingfc22]

I'd say 1 yard line, although that shot lacks the depth perception to tell exactly where the ball is relative to the players.
When I was watching the play on Tivo, the shadow of the ball went right inside the pylon and then out of bounds. Of course that doesn't mean that is where the ball was, but it was that close.

[sabotai]

They are intent on portraying their team as having to fight against the entire world and never getting any respect.
I find this is true for fans of just about any team.

[Oilers9911]

I'm not anti-Pats or anti-Pats fans but being a Denver fan I am SO tired of hearing about the team that LOST. On all the telecasts so far it has been about New England playing like champions and the dynasty and on and on....what about the team that won the game?

[Tekneek]

I find this is true for fans of just about any team.

Really? The fans of any team that wins 3 out of the last 4 Super Bowls are still going to continue carrying on like their team gets no respect? While their team, coach, and best players are hyped on all the NFL TV shows, and their QB (who they act like gets no respect) is in national TV commercials and on the cover of magazines? It just seems way too contrived now. Almost as if they need to light that fire to motivate themselves to support their team.

[GrantDawg]

Really? The fans of any team that wins 3 out of the last 4 Super Bowls are still going to continue carrying on like their team gets no respect? While their team, coach, and best players are hyped on all the NFL TV shows, and their QB (who they act like gets no respect) is in national TV commercials and on the cover of magazines? It just seems way too contrived now. Almost as if they need to light that fire to motivate themselves to support their team.

Yup. Does get old.

[Desnudo]

Well you all will have a new team to be annoyed with next season. And what exactly did you expect to see on a Boston message board tucker? People talking about how great Denver was?

[MJ4H]

It would be nice to see some sportsmanship. Of course what would be nice and what is expected isn't the same thing.

[sabotai]

Really? The fans of any team that wins 3 out of the last 4 Super Bowls are still going to continue carrying on like their team gets no respect? While their team, coach, and best players are hyped on all the NFL TV shows, and their QB (who they act like gets no respect) is in national TV commercials and on the cover of magazines? It just seems way too contrived now. Almost as if they need to light that fire to motivate themselves to support their team.
Yes. No matter how successful a team is, fans can't help to paint their team as Rocky and all other teams as Apollo Creed. A lot of fans interpret anything that isn't "OMFG! This team is the greatest team EVER" and a sign of no respect.

A few experts pick the opposing team "OMG, our team gets no repsect". The pre game shows talk about the opposing team for 5 more seconds than their team, "OMG, we get no respect."

[Glengoyne]

Did anyone read Gene Wojciechowski's article on ESPN? I don't know a lot about his allegiances, but he sounded really bitter. Is he pro-Pats, anti-Denver or did he just wake up on the wrong side of the bed?He's just pretty much an Ass-Hat most of the time.

[Desnudo]

It would be nice to see some sportsmanship. Of course what would be nice and what is expected isn't the same thing.

I wouldn't look on internet NFL team message boards for that.

[MJ4H]

Well, right. Just saying it would be nice. Sometimes I wish I lived on another planet.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm still annoyed by that terrible pass interference call, but Tekneek is right - the Pats have gotten many of those in their favor. The Broncos won because they played good football and capitalized on New England's mistakes, mistakes they don't normally make. It would have been a nice run, and, with the way today shaped out, I would have liked the Pats chances againt the Steelers much more so than against Indy. But you can't turnover the ball like that and expect to win and NO team knows that more than NE.

and yes, Ben Watson could play on my favorite team for as long as he likes. that was an incredible play...almost saved the game for them.

[Desnudo]

Well, right. Just saying it would be nice. Sometimes I wish I lived on another planet.

I agree with the sentiment.

[stevew]

I can imagine it went something like: "goodbye cruel world".


More like guys getting ready to get dressed up in camo, and going out to hunt some von Ohlehoffen.

[AlexB]

I'm still annoyed by that terrible pass interference call, but Tekneek is right - the Pats have gotten many of those in their favor. The Broncos won because they played good football and capitalized on New England's mistakes, mistakes they don't normally make. It would have been a nice run, and, with the way today shaped out, I would have liked the Pats chances againt the Steelers much more so than against Indy. But you can't turnover the ball like that and expect to win and NO team knows that more than NE.

and yes, Ben Watson could play on my favorite team for as long as he likes. that was an incredible play...almost saved the game for them.

And remember the Broncos forced turnovers (apart from the Triy Brown muff) - the Pats didn;t give the ball away, Denver took it. The only way in which NE have an argument is the horrible PI call which definitely was a major part in the game.

Even as a Miami fan, I have a grudging respect for the Pats, but I think you have to say the Broncos deserved it because they took better advantage of their opportunities.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't remember ANY Cowboys fan during the early 90s saying their team got no respect. All the "no body thinks we can do it" crap was uber-annoying. How many other #4 seeds were getting so many people predicting they'd get into the Super Bowl before the playoffs?

[jeff061]

That goal line play was to close, that was handled fine in game.

As far as no respect, the Patriots didn't get any until after their second super bowl. However, even though they weren't favored, the fact that most "experts" picked the Patriots to win in Denver against a good Denver team kind of wipes away that whole lack of respect thing.

I think it may be hard to understand just how much the Pats were shit on the first few years of this run without having been a part of it. I think a lot of fans are having trouble letting it go.

[Desnudo]

Of course now everyone is writing "Pats Dynasty Over" articles, so get ready for round 2 next season.

[TroyF]

Of course now everyone is writing "Pats Dynasty Over" articles, so get ready for round 2 next season.

Who is writing them?

I'm not challenging here, I'm honestly curious. I haven't seen a single thing in the national media saying the Pats are finished. If anything, I hear the media falling over themselves to say the Patriots gave Denver the win and that the better team lost the football game. (Sean Salisbury is a notable exception to that rule)

[jeff061]

Note the Patriots said the better team won :), well at least McGinest. I haven't been able to bring myself to read the post game stuff. I don't mind the losing, it was going to happen sooner or later, but that was painful.

[Desnudo]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cc-afcpoints011406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[jeff061]

They had a great run, and I think this defeat will put an end to New England's status as a championship contendeHehe. Nice. Carter I believe never really jumped on the bandwagon though.

[TroyF]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cc-afcpoints011406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Interesting. But Chris Carter has the brains of a fruit fly.

My favorite, favorite quote from any Patriots player last night:

’You can’t say we did it to ourselves,” All-Pro defensive end Richard Seymour said. ‘’When you say we beat ourselves you’re not giving the other team enough credit. We did make a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes, but in a way they forced them. As a competitive player and as a man you have to accept it. They did it to us. I’m disappointed. Very disappointed. But if you can’t accept a loss, what kind of person are you?”

Classy, admitted the failure the Patriots made as a team without trying to take away anything Denver did. Props to you Mr. Seymour.

[Desnudo]

I think you give Carter too much credit. My point was that stories like that are filtering out and will inevitably lead to more no respect chest thumping next season. I find the whole no respect card annoying, but I know it'll happen.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Who is writing them?

I'm not challenging here, I'm honestly curious. I haven't seen a single thing in the national media saying the Pats are finished.

Here's a couple more for you.

Tim Dahlberg, national sports columnist for AP
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9166058/1

Dr. Z, from SI
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/dr_z/01/15/divisional.round.reax/index.html

And virtually every story I've read makes some reference to "end of the dynasty". Nobody is saying that the Patriots are going to go 4-12 next year, just that the "dynasty" ends with the loss yesterday. The former is not required for the latter to be true.

[Galaril]

That was a tough call, but it's one of those I don't think you can reverse what was called on the field (either way). Phil Simms geometry aside, there really wasn't much anyone could do after the play to get a definitive result. Still, you gotta love the hustle by Watson - that guy could play for my team anyday with that kind of determination.

The PI call was rough (I'm sure Raiders fans won't be all that upset), but Brady just never seemed to click last night. The Pats really can't run the ball, so if Brady can't get in a groove, they struggle to score points. Still, I think the special teams turnovers were devastating. The NE D was playing well, but it kills you to make a stop or have a kickoff to your guys only to see a turnover that forces you back on the field.


I am a Pats fan and got a couple of things to say. The better team won that game. The interception and subsequent fumble out of bounds was the correct call. If Brady hadn't thrown the int in the first place it wouldn't of happened. The Pats didn't lose the game but they were up 3-0 with 3:00 minutes left and the ball at the Broncos 28 yard line and driving when Faulk fumbled . That along with the Kickoff fumble were HUGE mistakes for the Pats.
I am not going to say the Broncos didn't out play the Pats ,especially n the second half..............5 turnovers producing 24 points is not going to win you many playoff games in the NFL. Both Plummer and Mike Anderson were neutralized by the Pats D for the most part and better play ALOT better against the Steelers or they will be watching the SB at home. The Pats offense weren't world beaters either but without the turnovers in their own territory it probably would have been adifferent game. I thought both teams in fact played recklessly and rather careless. I think this was a good thing for my fellow, particular local Pats fans who become really cocky and too disrespectaful of other teams and fans. That is a generalization but a pretty accurate one overall. Good luck to the four teams left see you next season.

[molson]

I don't remember ANY Cowboys fan during the early 90s saying their team got no respect. All the "no body thinks we can do it" crap was uber-annoying. How many other #4 seeds were getting so many people predicting they'd get into the Super Bowl before the playoffs?

I'm sure if the Internet was in wide use in the early 90s, the obnoxious Cowboys fans who felt they weren't getting enough respect would have had more of a voice.

This perception of annoying and arrogant Pats fans after all, is only based on the the small amount that post on message boards, or maybe one annoying co-worker (who probably became a Pats fan within the last 3 years.)

[cuervo72]

Yes. No matter how successful a team is, fans can't help to paint their team as Rocky and all other teams as Apollo Creed. A lot of fans interpret anything that isn't "OMFG! This team is the greatest team EVER" and a sign of no respect.

A few experts pick the opposing team "OMG, our team gets no repsect". The pre game shows talk about the opposing team for 5 more seconds than their team, "OMG, we get no respect."

I really can't imagine Cowboys fans in the early 90's fashioning the Cowboys as Rocky. That team was Apollo all the way.

(I don't remember the Niners SB teams being that way either, and I can't imagine the Steelers or Cowboys of the 70s being that way. Cross-sport, I never hear the Yankees fans spouting this angle either. Seems to be a bit of a Boston complex.)

[cuervo72]

Heh. Looks like Imran beat me to it by a few hours there. :)

[jamesUMD]

That Ben Watson play was ridiculous. I am really rooting for the Steelers next week. God I hate the Broncos. My buddy called and asked who #84 was and I said I'm pretty sure it's Ben Watson. He was like no it couldn't be a TE that caught up with him lol.

[TroyF]

I am a Pats fan and got a couple of things to say. The better team won that game. The interception and subsequent fumble out of bounds was the correct call. If Brady hadn't thrown the int in the first place it wouldn't of happened. The Pats didn't lose the game but they were up 3-0 with 3:00 minutes left and the ball at the Broncos 28 yard line and driving when Faulk fumbled . That along with the Kickoff fumble were HUGE mistakes for the Pats.
I am not going to say the Broncos didn't out play the Pats ,especially n the second half..............5 turnovers producing 24 points is not going to win you many playoff games in the NFL. Both Plummer and Mike Anderson were neutralized by the Pats D for the most part and better play ALOT better against the Steelers or they will be watching the SB at home. The Pats offense weren't world beaters either but without the turnovers in their own territory it probably would have been adifferent game. I thought both teams in fact played recklessly and rather careless. I think this was a good thing for my fellow, particular local Pats fans who become really cocky and too disrespectaful of other teams and fans. That is a generalization but a pretty accurate one overall. Good luck to the four teams left see you next season.


Faulk didn't fumble the ball on the Denver 28 yard line. He fumbled it on the NE 40.

It was the play right before the PI call. Agree with most fo the other things, but not all.

[Desnudo]

Faulk didn't fumble the ball on the Denver 28 yard line. He fumbled it on the NE 40.

It was the play right before the PI call. Agree with most fo the other things, but not all.

IMO, that was the game changing sequence, not the PI call. Pick off pass, immediately fumble it back on the next possession.

[sabotai]

I really can't imagine Cowboys fans in the early 90's fashioning the Cowboys as Rocky. That team was Apollo all the way.

(I don't remember the Niners SB teams being that way either, and I can't imagine the Steelers or Cowboys of the 70s being that way. Cross-sport, I never hear the Yankees fans spouting this angle either. Seems to be a bit of a Boston complex.)
Unfortunatly, the interent really wasn't around from the early 90's and back, so I can't say how fans of a city, other than Philly, acted. And I can assure you the "no respect" angle gets tossed around in Philly all the time. I highly doubt it's just a Boston thing.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, I don't think the 'no respect' angle is just because of a few message board guys. Tom Brady basically said it a few weeks ago!

[TroyF]

IMO, that was the game changing sequence, not the PI call. Pick off pass, immediately fumble it back on the next possession.


I still think it was the Bailey INT. Simms was busy talking about how the Patriots just fought longer than other teams, how they persevered longer. About twenty seconds after he says that, Brady throws the duck to Bailey. Much has been made of Watson (and what an incredible play that was) and Champ showboating/running out of gas. . . but Denver was ready to be had right then, right there. Jump on em, take the lead and let the defense which had dominated Denver for most of the night get to work.

I think that single play decided the football game.

[Desnudo]

I still think it was the Bailey INT. Simms was busy talking about how the Patriots just fought longer than other teams, how they persevered longer. About twenty seconds after he says that, Brady throws the duck to Bailey. Much has been made of Watson (and what an incredible play that was) and Champ showboating/running out of gas. . . but Denver was ready to be had right then, right there. Jump on em, take the lead and let the defense which had dominated Denver for most of the night get to work.

I think that single play decided the football game.

But I don't think they are in that position if they don't fumble that ball. That fumble creates two problems, one it kills morale on the defense who just worked to get a turnover, and two, it puts Denver in great field position. I think the Bailey INT was the nail in the coffin, but the tone of the game was changed by that turnover sequence.

[McSweeny]

But I don't think they are in that position if they don't fumble that ball. That fumble creates two problems, one it kills morale on the defense who just worked to get a turnover, and two, it puts Denver in great field position. I think the Bailey INT was the nail in the coffin, but the tone of the game was changed by that turnover sequence.exactly

after the field goal and the interception i felt we were in complete control of the game. the fumble totally killed that feeling.

[rkmsuf]

I think it's safe to say NE gave the game away. Total inexpicable but Denver did nothing most of the night except fall on fumbles and go 10 yards for a score. Belichick and the coaches had the correct gameplan(especially coming out of halftime) but they didn't execute. A rare occurance.

[TroyF]

I think it's safe to say NE gave the game away. Total inexpicable but Denver did nothing most of the night except fall on fumbles and go 10 yards for a score. Belichick and the coaches had the correct gameplan(especially coming out of halftime) but they didn't execute. A rare occurance.


And yet again, this doesn't give Denver nearly the credit they deserve. If you talk like that, then you have to say the Patriots were given a lot of their wins the last few years. How many times did teams have fumbles or INT's inside the 20, dominate the game and still find ways to lose it? (can we even count the number of critical turnovers the Patriots forced inside the twenty these last few years?)

The Patriots fans response to that has always been to say great players make great plays and great teams make their own luck.

Then when the switch is flipped, it's "The Patriots gave the football game away"

I have no problems if people were consistent, but you can't have it both ways. Denver forced a lot of the bad NE play with aggressive defense and not being afraid to smack Brady in the mouth. To say otherwise is foolish IMHO.

edit: One final thing. For those who keep saying the Denver offense did nothing the second half. You are only partially right. When NE needed to make stops in the second half, they didn't. After the muffed punt, they gave up a TD. After NE scored to cut it to 24-13, Denver ate up 4:41 of the game clock with a 61 yard drive. Denver touched the ball two times in the fourth quarter with the game on the line. They ate up over 8 minutes of the clock and scored 10 points. Did NE "give" them those 8 minutes?

[jeff061]

If you talk like that, then you have to say the Patriots were given a lot of their wins the last few years.And that's exactly what those teams and their fans said :D. I'm assuming the Pats had those statements in mind when they gave all the credit to the Broncos.

In any case, the credit does go to Denever for not turning the ball over and for owning the field position all night, both of which were huge.

[gstelmack]

But I don't think they are in that position if they don't fumble that ball. That fumble creates two problems, one it kills morale on the defense who just worked to get a turnover, and two, it puts Denver in great field position. I think the Bailey INT was the nail in the coffin, but the tone of the game was changed by that turnover sequence.
The tone may have been, but the Pats were still in good shape. I agree with Troy: Brady doesn't throw that pick, Pats are likely going up 13-10 instead of going down 17-6. HUGE difference at that point.

Sure, without the fumble they may have already been up at that point, but the game was still well within reach. The pick put it back at a 2-score game and deflated the offense.

[Castlerock]

I think it's safe to say NE gave the game away. Total inexpicable but Denver did nothing most of the night except fall on fumbles and go 10 yards for a score. Belichick and the coaches had the correct gameplan(especially coming out of halftime) but they didn't execute. A rare occurance.

And yet again, this doesn't give Denver nearly the credit they deserve.

Gotta agree with TroyF on this one. Denver deserved to win that game. Football is about a lot of things but making oponents pay for their mistakes one of the marks of a good football team. Denver did that they deserve congratulations.

I remember early in the Patriots run, teams would get beat by the Patriots (the Steelers comes to mind but there are other examples) but refuse to accept that the better team one. It is infuriating (and wrong). We lost. Give Denver the credit they deserve.

[Desnudo]

Gotta agree with TroyF on this one. Denver deserved to win that game. Football is about a lot of things but making oponents pay for their mistakes one of the marks of a good football team. Denver did that they deserve congratulations.

I remember early in the Patriots run, teams would get beat by the Patriots (the Steelers comes to mind but there are other examples) but refuse to accept that the better team one. It is infuriating (and wrong). We lost. Give Denver the credit they deserve.

Ditto. Brady is as tough as they come, but he was getting levelled play after play. I think what Denver did, and does, is remove that extra split second that a QB needs to really comfortably throw. It was almost imperceptable, but you could see Brady rushing throws just a little bit all night.

[ISiddiqui]

Definately agree with Troy on this one. It is a shame that some Pats fans can't admit the better team won. Especially knowing the history of the Pats, where some in St. Louis still think the better team lost in the Pats' first SB win.

[Crim]

...Especially knowing the history of the Pats, where some in St. Louis still think the better team lost in the Pats' first SB win.

Exactly. I sat down to watch that Superbowl fully expecting, and relishing the prospect of, New England getting pasted. I'm a Broncos fan, but the Patriots definately earned my respect that day, from the way they imposed their will and outplayed the more talented team from St Louis.

Then, after the game, comments from the Rams and the genius analysts all seemed to be trying to convince me that what I saw was not what I saw... the Patriots didn't win; the Rams just failed to execute, blah blah bullshit.

This year's version of the Patriots weren't enough to get it done. If it hadn't been the Broncos, it would have been the Steelers knocking them off next weekend. Either way, their season is deservedly over, better luck next year, see ya later bye.

And, go Broncos!


Crim