Dan Marino

[Grammaticus]

On Fox and Friends this morning, Marino confirmed he was in a group of people that are working a deal to buy the Pittsburg Penguins.

Oh, he also threw some good passes across time square. Dan is still the man!

[rkmsuf]

I loathe Dan Marino.

[rowech]

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.

[Chubby]

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.

Did Peyton retire?

[rkmsuf]

Did Peyton retire?


might as well and save himself the aggravation

[Pumpy Tudors]

might as well and save himself the aggravation
gg

[Grammaticus]

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.
Must really aggravate you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

[muns]

On Fox and Friends this morning, Marino confirmed he was in a group of people that are working a deal to buy the Pittsburg Penguins.

Oh, he also threw some good passes across time square. Dan is still the man!


Mark Cuban is in that group too i believe

[st.cronin]

Must really amuse you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

I think that's closer to the sentiment.

[Grammaticus]

probably

[Franklinnoble]

Got any more of that gum, Ace?

[rowech]

Must really aggravate you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, James never ran for over 1500 yards... OH WAIT!

[Deattribution]

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.


Huh?

Is Edgerrin James suppose to be running for 2500 yards per year before he's in a 'balanced' offense? Because he already averages (injured seasons aside) about 1500 yards 10 touches on 330 or so carries a year.

Using that example really shows how little you know.

[st.cronin]

oops, reading comprehension error

more coffee please

[larrymcg421]

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

That is all absolute crap. You obviously know nothing about Marino.

Marino did want to sacrifice his numbers. He wanted to win a title more than anything else. He was more than happy to hand it off to a running back. During the time the Dolphins were 8-8 every year, Marino asked Shula to be traded to a team with a better running game, but Shula talked him out of it.

There were times when the Dolphins started to get a ground game going with people like Mark Higgs and Bernie Parmalee. But it never lasted. These guys got injured or couldn't do it in the playoffs and Marino was forced back into all pass mode. When Jimmy Johnson became coach, The Dolphins tried a running game with Jabbar, but it never worked and Jimmy himself would revert back to having Marino throw 50 times a game because nothing else was working.

Why do people have this hatred of Marino? It's pretty bizaare. He was a standup guy who was heavily involved in the community and an idol to many younger fans. But people feel the need to treat him like he's Jeff George or something.

[ISiddiqui]

It's because we all hate Isotoner gloves :mad:

[larrymcg421]

Let me also ask you:

If Elway had retired two years earlier, would that change how good of a player he was? If the Broncos never drafted Terrell Davis, is Elway any better or any worse as a QB?

[larrymcg421]

BTW, for the non-Marino haters, enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvzE__vAClo

[Deattribution]

Marino also played on some really good teams though, I'm not saying he 'didn't want to sacrifice his numbers' or anything stupid like that, but he simply just never could win a big game.

He had a career 86.4 QB rating in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was 77.1, that's a significant drop off. He also threw an interception in 13 of all 18 of his playoff games, 2 or more in 10 of the games... those 10 games they were 1 in 9. For whatever reason, he's certainly one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but that only counts for the regular season.

[hoopsguy]

Marino had just a terrible collection of RBs, and a pretty weak collection of defenses, for the teams he dragged into the playoffs. I think it is wildly inaccurate to point to him as some kind of "me first" numbers guy on the Dolphin teams.

If it is all about the rings, would you take Bradshaw over Marino? If so, think about the question again and come back when you have the right anwer.

[rkmsuf]

I've argued this successfully so many times I'll just summarize by saying Marino is a donkey.

[larrymcg421]

Marino also played on some really good teams though, I'm not saying he 'didn't want to sacrifice his numbers' or anything stupid like that, but he simply just never could win a big game.

He had a career 86.4 QB rating in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was 77.1, that's a significant drop off. He also threw an interception in 13 of all 18 of his playoff games, 2 or more in 10 of the games... those 10 games they were 1 in 9. For whatever reason, he's certainly one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but that only counts for the regular season.

What really good teams, though? Only a couple times did they even have good defenses, in 1990 and 1992, and both times the defenses failed in the playoffs. In 90, 92, and 94, three of his best chances, the defense and running game let him down each time. 94 was especially bad, as we blew a 21-6 lead because we couldn't run down the clock and our tired defense allowed the Chargers to come back. Even then, Marino rallied the Dolphins to set up a FG for the win and Stoyo missed it.

[larrymcg421]

I've argued this successfully so many times I'll just summarize by saying Marino is a donkey.

Fuck you.

[rowech]

Huh?

Is Edgerrin James suppose to be running for 2500 yards per year before he's in a 'balanced' offense? Because he already averages (injured seasons aside) about 1500 yards 10 touches on 330 or so carries a year.

Using that example really shows how little you know.


It doesn't count when he runs up 200 yards on crappy defensive teams after they're up 28-0. Every time Edge gets somewhat stopped, Manning takes it upon himself to abandon the running game and try and win the game himself. He does this WAY too early. He'll do it in the second quarter and never come back to Edge. If you want to abandon the run late in the 3rd or in the 4th, fine but he's way too quick to give up the run game. That's how he gets in trouble.

[Deattribution]

If it is all about the rings, would you take Bradshaw over Marino? If so, think about the question again and come back when you have the right anwer.

I would.

Pittsburg had some good defense, but honestly nobody gives Bradshaw any credit despite the fact out of all 4 of their titles, they were only #1 in scoring defense on 1 of those 4 the teams.

Marino played on the #1 scoring defense 3 times in his career, 83, 84 and 98 (they were also #4 allowing only 15.5 in 90 which is pretty nice) and never could do anything with it.

Someone mentioned Elway, well Elway stomped the #1 defense in 98 with Marino on it (who was terrible coughing up 2 picks and managing a 65.5 rating).

Again, a great QB but he just couldn't win... Some have it, some don't.

[rkmsuf]

Fuck you.

Manlove

[rowech]

Let me also ask you:

If Elway had retired two years earlier, would that change how good of a player he was? If the Broncos never drafted Terrell Davis, is Elway any better or any worse as a QB?

Good question and I'm not sure of the answer to be honest. I do believe a super bowl win adds legacy to a QB. Take a look at Ken Anderson's numbers somtimes. Very comparable to most "great" QBs yet he's not even in the Hall nor mentione as a great one. He wins that super bowl in '82 his legacy is forever changed.

I would say Elway's legacy is definitely helped more by his two super bowls. He'd still be a great one and I'd still probably put him #2 behind Montana for QBs I've actually seen play.

[Deattribution]

It doesn't count when he runs up 200 yards on crappy defensive teams after they're up 28-0. Every time Edge gets somewhat stopped, Manning takes it upon himself to abandon the running game and try and win the game himself. He does this WAY too early. He'll do it in the second quarter and never come back to Edge. If you want to abandon the run late in the 3rd or in the 4th, fine but he's way too quick to give up the run game. That's how he gets in trouble.


Crazy talk again, Manning's game has always been reliant on the fact that defenses know they can also hand it off (and DID hand it off) to Edge.

Playoffs? sure, but it has nothing to do with him wanting to pad his stats. Regular season? I'm not sure what 'trouble' you're talking about but okay...

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, can you list all of the Hall of Famers that Marino played with over his career?

[rowech]

That is all absolute crap. You obviously know nothing about Marino.

Marino did want to sacrifice his numbers. He wanted to win a title more than anything else. He was more than happy to hand it off to a running back. During the time the Dolphins were 8-8 every year, Marino asked Shula to be traded to a team with a better running game, but Shula talked him out of it.

There were times when the Dolphins started to get a ground game going with people like Mark Higgs and Bernie Parmalee. But it never lasted. These guys got injured or couldn't do it in the playoffs and Marino was forced back into all pass mode. When Jimmy Johnson became coach, The Dolphins tried a running game with Jabbar, but it never worked and Jimmy himself would revert back to having Marino throw 50 times a game because nothing else was working.

Why do people have this hatred of Marino? It's pretty bizaare. He was a standup guy who was heavily involved in the community and an idol to many younger fans. But people feel the need to treat him like he's Jeff George or something.

He's definitely not Jeff George. He's probably in the top 10-15 QBs all time but I would not put him at the top.

[larrymcg421]

I would.

Pittsburg had some good defense, but honestly nobody gives Bradshaw any credit despite the fact out of all 4 of their titles, they were only #1 in scoring defense on 1 of those 4 the teams.

Marino played on the #1 scoring defense 3 times in his career, 83, 84 and 98 (they were also #4 allowing only 15.5 in 90 which is pretty nice) and never could do anything with it.

Someone mentioned Elway, well Elway stomped the #1 defense in 98 with Marino on it (who was terrible coughing up 2 picks and managing a 65.5 rating).

Again, a great QB but he just couldn't win... Some have it, some don't.

Elway didn't stop the #1 defense. Terrel Davis did, and that was because a key player of that #1 defense (Tim Bowens) was injured in the playoffs. We had stopped Davis just a few weeks earlier. But I think it's funny about your double standard. Marino is at fault in 1998 because he had a terrible game, but the #1 defense giving up 38 points is no problem. In 1990, that #4 defense gave up 44 pt.s in the playoff loss to the Bills. In 1984 that #1 defense gave up 38 pts. to the Niners. It's pretty stupid to say Marino was only a regular season qB and point out how good his defenses were when those same defenses were even worse in the playoffs than Marino.

[Desnudo]

I'll forever be grateful for the Shannon Sharpe-Marino comedy team on NFL Today. Watching Marino akwardly try and crack jokes that no but him laughed at was a real treat.

No need to reiterate how much of a donkey Marino was. That's shown by his choice of commercial endorsements.

[Deattribution]

Deattribution, can you list all of the Hall of Famers that Marino played with over his career?


If he had won them a few superbowls without playing like Jeff George in the playoffs I'm sure the list would be a little bigger :)

[rkmsuf]

I'll forever be grateful for the Shannon Sharpe-Marino comedy team on NFL Today. Watching Marino akwardly try and crack jokes that no but him laughed at was a real treat.

No need to reiterate how much of a donkey Marino was. That's shown by his choice of commercial endorsements.

you complete me

[rowech]

Crazy talk again, Manning's game has always been reliant on the fact that defenses know they can also hand it off (and DID hand it off) to Edge.

Playoffs? sure, but it has nothing to do with him wanting to pad his stats. Regular season? I'm not sure what 'trouble' you're talking about but okay...


The playoffs are what I'm talking about. How can I argue with Manning's regular season stats/record? When the playoffs come though...he chokes...plain and simple. There's no way they should have lost before the super bowl last year.

I'll also throw out the fact that UT won the title the year AFTER Manning left and then I'll also throw out Marino's Pitt teams always coming up short as well.

[Deattribution]

Elway didn't stop the #1 defense. Terrel Davis did, and that was because a key player of that #1 defense (Tim Bowens) was injured in the playoffs. We had stopped Davis just a few weeks earlier. But I think it's funny about your double standard. Marino is at fault in 1998 because he had a terrible game, but the #1 defense giving up 38 points is no problem. In 1990, that #4 defense gave up 44 pt.s in the playoff loss to the Bills. In 1984 that #1 defense gave up 38 pts. to the Niners. It's pretty stupid to say Marino was only a regular season qB and point out how good his defenses were when those same defenses were even worse in the playoffs than Marino.

The fact that he couldn't keep his defenses off the field for longer then 2 minutes in the playoffs has nothing to do with his defenses mysteriously coming up short, right?

[rowech]

Guys, I'm not saying Manning and Marino suck nor am I saying they're not in the top 10-15 QBs all-time. I am saying there are a lot of other guys I'd take ahead of them.

[larrymcg421]

It is ridiculous to make a judgement about an individual player on how a team performed. Are you saying Manning held UT back? So when they lost 62-37 to the Gators, it was Manning's fault they gave up 62 or that he couldn't score 63?

[Deattribution]

The playoffs are what I'm talking about. How can I argue with Manning's regular season stats/record? When the playoffs come though...he chokes...plain and simple. There's no way they should have lost before the super bowl last year.

I'll also throw out the fact that UT won the title the year AFTER Manning left and then I'll also throw out Marino's Pitt teams always coming up short as well.


Yeah but the argument that he does it for his numbers holds no weight in the playoffs, If anything he does it because he thinks he can win the game - and he hasn't been able to. Not to mention, much like Marino he has that 'can't win' stigma over him which is a death grip on his team.

[larrymcg421]

The fact that he couldn't keep his defenses off the field for longer then 2 minutes in the playoffs has nothing to do with his defenses mysteriously coming up short, right?
He's supposed to keep them off, how? By handing it to Sammie Smith, Mark Higgs, Abdul-Jabbar or Bernie Parmalee? Well they tried that against San Diego and Parmalee not only could not run the clock down but was stopped for a safety, which allowed the Chargers to win 22-21.

But it wasn't time of possession in those games. That's a pretty hollow argument because the defenses were getting beat silly from the start.

[Desnudo]

you complete me

Show me the money

[rkmsuf]

1998 was the greatest. Dolphins gave up the least points in the NFL and got pasted 38-3 in Denver after beating Denver in the regular season.

[Deattribution]

Meh, this could go on forever.

He played with the winningest coach ever... nada, a guy who had up til then taken 2 teams to 5 superbowls in 15 years. In 13 succeeding years with Marino... 1 superbowl, which they lost.... again, nada. empty handed.

He played with 55 players named to the pro-bowl over his career, 64 including the 9 times he made it, that averages out to 4 per year, both New England Patriot teams had a combined 5 in their first two SB wins.

He joined a team that had just played in the SB the year before...

Again, he was a playoff 77.1 passer. Multiple interception games (10 out of 18 games he had 2 or more, which they were 1 in 9 in), which puts those good defenses in shitty spots.

Playing 17 years in a league, you're definitely going to play on a few shit teams, these are generally the only teams mentioned when it comes to why Marino didn't win arguments. Again, he played on some really good defenses and in his record breaking year, they amassed nearly 2000 yards team rushing.

Facts are facts, I'll leave this to whoever's judgement.

I won't dispute how amazingly good he was in the regular season, but beyond that he wasn't very good.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Wow, you people take this shit seriously.

Obviously, the greatest quarterback in NFL history is Doug Nussmeier. Do not argue with me on this.

[larrymcg421]

And in that record breaking year, he took them to the Superbowl. And that supposedly great defense and running game were non-existent when they got there (Not to mention how bad the defense was in the AFC title game, giving up 28 pts. to the Steelers).

Againm, you create a double standard for Marino. You say MArino was a great regular season player, but bad in the playoffs. PArt of your evidence is how good his defenses or running game might have been in certain years. But thenm you want to ignore how bad those defenses and running games were in the postseason. Much, much worse than Marino was in fact. A 77.1 QB rating is not good, but it's not this disaster that you're making it out to be. However, the defenses constantly giving up 38 and 44 pts. in the playoffs is a disaster.

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, you looked up the number of Pro Bowlers who played with Marino, but dodged the question about HoF guys. I would think the 2nd one would be a lot easier.

Or did you avoid answering that one because it didn't fit your argument?

[Deattribution]

Deattribution, you looked up the number of Pro Bowlers who played with Marino, but dodged the question about HoF guys. I would think the 2nd one would be a lot easier.

Or did you avoid answering that one because it didn't fit your argument?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it - mostly in jest but a touch of seriousness.

Most of all my facts are all from one single article/site, so it's not like I'm furiously looking up information. If it was readily availiable, I'd of said it... go look it up yourself if you want but..

HoF players are great to have on your team, but there are too many players who never make it to the HoF but were great to make it apart of an argument. Not to mention the fact that some players get in for the wrong reasons (Namath for instance). It only takes 1 really good year to help your team win a SB, not a career.

Terrel Davis undoubtly helped Elway, but he's not in the hall, does that mean he wasn't really important to Elway?

[larrymcg421]

I didn't avoid it, I answered it - mostly in jest but a touch of seriousness.

Most of all my facts are all from one single article/site, so it's not like I'm furiously looking up information. If it was readily availiable, I'd of said it... go look it up yourself if you want but..

HoF players are great to have on your team, but there are too many players who never make it to the HoF but were great to make it apart of an argument. Not to mention the fact that some players get in for the wrong reasons (Namath for instance). It only takes 1 really good year to help your team win a SB, not a career.

Terrel Davis undoubtly helped Elway, but he's not in the hall, does that mean he wasn't really important to Elway?

Is Terrell even eligible yet? If so, it hasn't been that many years. There are debates on whether or not he should be in. But your argument is flawed. Davis is a special case. Without injuries he would be an automatic HOFer. If you can give an example of a Dolphins player that had a similar circumstance, please share it with us.

[rkmsuf]

Miami only has 9 HOFers total including Donkino.

Not sure what the point is. He played with DWIGHT STEPHENSON though.

[spleen1015]

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

LOL!

[rowech]

Is Terrell even eligible yet? If so, it hasn't been that many years. There are debates on whether or not he should be in. But your argument is flawed. Davis is a special case. Without injuries he would be an automatic HOFer. If you can give an example of a Dolphins player that had a similar circumstance, please share it with us.

Longevity has to mean something to get into the Hall of Fame. Terrell really didn't even get in five good years. Had he got in maybe eight or so then you could think about it.

[Franklinnoble]

BTW, for the non-Marino haters, enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvzE__vAClo

Nice.

[larrymcg421]

Longevity has to mean something to get into the Hall of Fame. Terrell really didn't even get in five good years. Had he got in maybe eight or so then you could think about it.

My point was that the fact that people even talk about him being in the HOF despite limited playing time shows how good he was. And it's clear he would have got in without the injuries. Thus, he is not a good example of a guy that helped his team despite not making the HOF.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the biggest travesty in this thread is that someone actually watches "Fox and Friends" :eek: (or as I like to call it "Fox and Fascists"... and I generally don't say that about the rest of Fox News' lineup).

[Grammaticus]

I think the biggest travesty in this thread is that someone actually watches "Fox and Friends" :eek: (or as I like to call it "Fox and Fascists"... and I generally don't say that about the rest of Fox News' lineup).
That’s why I posted it. I knew that you would never know what kind of great things happen on the show, if I didn’t tell you about it.

Fox and Friends also has Tiki Barber as a guest host fairly often. At least in the past NFL off season. My prediction is Tiki will be a highly recruited NFL or News show host, when he leaves the NFL.

Another good reason to watch the show is, look at the alternatives. Katie Couric (guess she is gone or on her way out), Diane Sawyer, blah. Wouldn’t you rather see E.D. Hill, Lauren Greene, Megan Kendall, Kiran Chetry, Harris Faulkner, Juliet Huddy, Paige Hopkins, Laurie Duhe. Now those Fox chicks are smokin HOT.

[wheels]

And in that record breaking year, he took them to the Superbowl. And that supposedly great defense and running game were non-existent when they got there.
C'mon, now. Marino's record-setting Super Bowl year came when he had the 16th ranked rushing offense (1918 total yards). This clearly contributed to his production that year.

Who can ever forget a backfield of Woody Bennett, Joe Carter, Andra Franklin, Eddie Hill, Pete Johnson and Tony Nathan? They loosened up the field for him to operate. ;)

Actually, I think that was Marino's best rushing support in any season.

[ISiddiqui]

Another good reason to watch the show is, look at the alternatives. Katie Couric (guess she is gone or on her way out), Diane Sawyer, blah. Wouldn’t you rather see E.D. Hill, Lauren Greene, Megan Kendall, Kiran Chetry, Harris Faulkner, Juliet Huddy, Paige Hopkins, Laurie Duhe. Now those Fox chicks are smokin HOT.
I'd rather watch ESPNNews or CNN in the morning ;). I don't care how hot they are, when they smile and do the 'dumb blond trick' (you know what I'm talking about) when talking about crazy ass quasi-fascist shit, I'm changing the channel!

[Rizon]

I'm surprised Marino put up the numbers he did. I mean, seriously. You line up against the Dolphin's offense back in those days and what do you expect to see? A hand off to Hampton? Stradford? ( I could go on).

I would have just dropped all 11 defenders back in coverage and completely ignored the run. It's not like Smith wasn't going to fumble it away if he runs against 11 DBs.

[Raiders Army]

Deattribution, you looked up the number of Pro Bowlers who played with Marino, but dodged the question about HoF guys. I would think the 2nd one would be a lot easier.

Or did you avoid answering that one because it didn't fit your argument?
That's not a fair question. Whereas the number of Pro Bowlers he played with isn't a good quantifier of the teams he played with (see Patriots' Superbowl Teams and how many Pro Bowlers they had or see how people get voted to the Pro Bowl), neither is the number of HOFers. Some of those guys could still be inducted.

[Raiders Army]

Also, no one can refute the fact that Manning and Marino's teams choked in the playoffs. Those QBs could not carry their teams. Simple fact of life.

[larrymcg421]

The only guys that could really be inducted are Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor. And they only played with him at the very very end. Who else is going to get inducted?

[larrymcg421]

Also, no one can refute the fact that Manning and Marino's teams choked in the playoffs. Those QBs could not carry their teams. Simple fact of life.

That was also a simple fact of life about John Elway. If he retired two years earlier, he would not have been any worse a QB than he is now. He just happened to have the two best teams of his career in those last two seasons, with a running back that nobody could stop.

[Raiders Army]

The only guys that could really be inducted are Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor. And they only played with him at the very very end. Who else is going to get inducted?
Still doesn't matter. There were a bunch of guys that played with Marino that were really good...maybe not good enough for the HOF, but good in their primes.

[Raiders Army]

That was also a simple fact of life about John Elway. If he retired two years earlier, he would not have been any worse a QB than he is now. He just happened to have the two best teams of his career in those last two seasons, with a running back that nobody could stop.
Just a disclaimer: I think Elway is also in that category, but he got lucky with a decent defense and great line (running back, I don't know). Do you not recognize that neither Marino nor Manning could carry their teams?

[larrymcg421]

But Marino and Manning did carry their teams. If you replace Marino with the average or even above average QB over those 17 years, then the Dolphins are MUCH worse. Some of those years where they were 8-8 were ABYSMAL teams. The fact they won 8 games is a miracle.

However, if you replace Montana with the average or above average QB, then yes the Niners still win a Superbowl. Maybe not 4, but they'd still win. Not unlike how the Redskins (Rypein), Giants (Hostettler), Ravens (Dilfer) won with abover average QB's (that's being generous, really).

[Chubby]

Marino = donkey.


He played for Dolphins, that's all you need to know :)

[Franklinnoble]

But Marino and Manning did carry their teams. If you replace Marino with the average or even above average QB over those 17 years, then the Dolphins are MUCH worse. Some of those years where they were 8-8 were ABYSMAL teams. The fact they won 8 games is a miracle.

However, if you replace Montana with the average or above average QB, then yes the Niners still win a Superbowl. Maybe not 4, but they'd still win. Not unlike how the Redskins (Rypein), Giants (Hostettler), Ravens (Dilfer) won with abover average QB's (that's being generous, really).

The Rypien comparison isn't really fair... dude won the MVP that year. Yeah, he was a flash in the pan (a la Kurt Warner), but I think he was a better QB that season that Dilfer or Hostetler in their title runs.

[RendeR]

Just a disclaimer: I think Elway is also in that category, but he got lucky with a decent defense and great line (running back, I don't know). Do you not recognize that neither Marino nor Manning could carry their teams?

You and everyone else dissing Marino seem to be forgetting that Elway LOST what 3? 4? super bowl before he finally won those 2? and tell us all why?

Don't know?


LOUSY RUNNING GAMES. Yeah they had Winder and umm....yeah, thats how good they were....

You'd all be schmucking up Elway just as badly if he hadn't had a fantastic line and running game to balance his QB play. Let's not forget a nice smothering defense.

If marino had the entire package in ANY of his seasons, the Dolpins walk to a title. Not one single season did the Dolphins have the full blown package that played to their ability in the same seaon and playoffs.

Marino is the #2 or 3 QB of all time. Who's number 1? I honestly don't know, but I'd put Fouts, Montana and Elway all up there with a shot. Staubach was superior as well. Manning? maybe in another few years with similar stats and production.

If you're dissing Marino as A QB you know little or nothing about the game, so please save your Dolphin-hate for your beer chugging cheeba-monkey friends and stop wasting our reading time with it.


EDIT: to add that marino would have gotten his Super bowl win VS the Niners if Shula hadn't gotten his coaching ASS handed to him by Bill Walsh. The Dolphins controlled the first half but as usualy Shula couldn't adjust his team at halftime while Walsh was a miracle worker at adjustments and gameplanning.

[RendeR]

Marino = donkey.


He played for Dolphins, that's all you need to know :)


I rest my case. You got nothin.

[Deattribution]

So the Marino apologist seem to be saying that if he had a hall of fame calibre defense , a hall of fame calibre running back and a hall of fame calibre coach (which he did), he'd of won a title.....

okay....

[Franklinnoble]

All you really need is a good coach.

Quick... somebody (who's not a Redskins fan) name a hall-of-famer from any of the Redskins SB teams (besides Darrell Green).

[Crapshoot]

So the Marino apologist seem to be saying that if he had a hall of fame calibre defense , a hall of fame calibre running back and a hall of fame calibre coach (which he did), he'd of won a title.....

okay....

This line of arguement is so frigging absurd - if Terrell Davis doesn't put 3 of the best seasons in football history, Elway's not a "Winner" ? Ridiculous.

[Warhammer]

All you really need is a good coach.

Quick... somebody (who's not a Redskins fan) name a hall-of-famer from any of the Redskins SB teams (besides Darrell Green).

Riggo
Russ Grimm

[larrymcg421]

Someone please tell me which Marino supporting cast was better than any of the ones Montana had when he won his Superbowls, or Elway when he won his, or Bradshaw when he won his, etc.

Please let me know.

[mckerney]

This line of arguement is so frigging absurd - if Terrell Davis doesn't put 3 of the best seasons in football history, Elway's not a "Winner" ? Ridiculous.

I agree that QBs often get too much of the blame when their teams don't win a championship. While Manning hasn't won a championship, but he's been better in the playoffs than some QBs who have been labeled "winners" in the playoffs like Brad Johnson, Brett Favre, and Trent Dilfer who were carried by a #1 defense to titles.

[miami_fan]

Could you guys stop discussing the Dolphin running backs from mid 80's til they got Rickey Williams?:mad:

[larrymcg421]

Do you want us to talk about some of the Defensive draft picks?

Jackie Shipp
Jay Brophy
George Little
TJ Turner
John Bosa
Rick Graf
Eric Kumerow

No?

We did get Offerdahl in 1986. We basically played a 0-1-0 defense when he was there.

[miami_fan]

Do you want us to talk about some of the Defensive draft picks?

Jackie Shipp
Jay Brophy
George Little
TJ Turner
John Bosa
Rick Graf
Eric Kumerow

No?

We did get Offerdahl in 1986. We basically played a 0-1-0 defense when he was there.

I hate you like poison now!

[Vince]

Did someone honestly say that Marino was in the top 10-15? I'd like to hear 5 or 6 QBs you'd take over Marino. I have trouble naming 4 that I could even argue for. I mean, honestly...

1. Montana
2. Unitas
3. Graham
4. Baugh
5. Elway

Who else? Bradshaw? Starr? Staubach? Young? They all have their warts...and I don't know that I could put Marino even lower than 3rd on this list. In what universe has there been 9-14 QBs better than Marino? I think I'm taking this way out of proportion...but "top 10-15" part at the end just seems hugely unnecessary.

[Franklinnoble]

Riggo
Russ Grimm

Ok.. Grimm was on all three teams, so I'll concede that. But Riggo was only on the first one. The running backs for the other two were mediocre, at best.

[larrymcg421]

Earnest Byner was pretty good. Certainly better than every running back Marino had. And then there's Timmy Smith. Would've been nice for one of the Dolphins bums to have a postseason game like that, but I guess Sammie Smith would've fumbled at the 1 yard line everytime anyways.

[Franklinnoble]

Well, truthfully, the Redskins had a hall-of-fame offensive line (although most of them are not in the HOF) that made those guys look good. Byner was decent. Timmy Smith had one good game (it just happened to be the Super Bowl).

[Raiders Army]

You and everyone else dissing Marino seem to be forgetting that Elway LOST what 3? 4? super bowl before he finally won those 2? and tell us all why?

Don't know?


LOUSY RUNNING GAMES. Yeah they had Winder and umm....yeah, thats how good they were....

You'd all be schmucking up Elway just as badly if he hadn't had a fantastic line and running game to balance his QB play. Let's not forget a nice smothering defense.
Um, please show me where I, a self-admitted fan of the Silver and Black, would ever build Elway up. I think he's just as much of a loser.

[stevew]

Donkey.

Marino flubs a line and acts like the girl we all knew he was.
hxxp://thatvideosite.com/video/3727

[rkmsuf]

told you he's an asswhite

I bet he's mean to old people and kids too.

[Fonzie]

told you he's an asswhite

I bet he's mean to old people and kids too.

We certainly know that he hates desks.

[rkmsuf]

We certainly know that he hates desks.

He should look on the bright side. His flubs are on par with Shannon Sharpe's normal speech.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Donkey.

Marino flubs a line and acts like the girl we all knew he was.
hxxp://thatvideosite.com/video/3727
Wow, what a donkey he is. That clip is great.

I know that the clip is several years old, but I've got to say that I can't believe "Inside the NFL" still airs. Is anybody watching that show anymore? Anybody?

[Pumpy Tudors]

hi franklinnoble

[Samdari]

So the Marino apologist seem to be saying that if he had a hall of fame calibre defense , a hall of fame calibre running back and a hall of fame calibre coach (which he did), he'd of won a title.....

okay....

You do realize that a great running game and a ggreat scoring defense are common to most super bowl winning QBs, don't you?

[Ksyrup]

That wasn't so bad. He was clearly pissed at himself. I thought this was going to show him yelling at someone or something like that. Who knows how many times he might have screwed that line up before this particular clip?

You can tell that's an old clip because Dawson refers to Brian Griese as the #1 rated passer...

[stevew]

hi franklinnoble

Are you trying to smoke him out? i hear if you say something bad about his wife, he's like Candyman, and will appear out of thin air.

[Subby]

FRANKLINNOBLE = DONKEY

[Aardvark]

Marino also played on some really good teams though, I'm not saying he 'didn't want to sacrifice his numbers' or anything stupid like that, but he simply just never could win a big game.

He had a career 86.4 QB rating in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was 77.1, that's a significant drop off. He also threw an interception in 13 of all 18 of his playoff games, 2 or more in 10 of the games... those 10 games they were 1 in 9. For whatever reason, he's certainly one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but that only counts for the regular season.

Aside from this being a sample size equivelent to only a little over a regular season, this totally lacks context. What is the average QB rating in a playoff game compared to the average QB rating overall? I would imagine nearly all stats to be worse, overall, in playoff games since, by their nature, playoff games are against winning teams.

For example, Lary Csonka had a career 4.5 yards per carry average, but only 4.0 in the playoffs.

[Desnudo]

told you he's an asswhite

I bet he's mean to old people and kids too.

This is like a POL thread, Marino apologists vs. Marino detractors. No middle ground. It's also a subject that can change your opinion about a man.

[st.cronin]

Dan Marino is the worst QB I have ever seen. He wasn't half the QB that Mark Rypien or John Friesz was.

[rkmsuf]

This is like a POL thread, Marino apologists vs. Marino detractors. No middle ground. It's also a subject that can change your opinion about a man.

It's the Marino butt boys you have to watch out for.

[Kodos]

Yep. Getting frustrated by his own goof cancels out all his charitable work and other contributions. Good catch.

[rkmsuf]

Yep. Getting frustrated by his own goof cancels out all his charitable work and other contributions. Good catch.

Good thing he never threw a bad pass. Ole Dan might have gotten a wee bit frustrated on the field.

[Kodos]

Like whiny little Tom Brady last weekend?

[rkmsuf]

Like whiny little Tom Brady last weekend?

Seeing how the game was in Miami, it was his personal tribute to Marino.

[bulletsponge]

You can tell that's an old clip because Dawson refers to Brian Griese as the #1 rated passer...

hmm. i suspect this clip is from an alternative universe if Brian Griese is the #1 rated QB. and whats so bad about him getting mad with himself for screwing up a line? better than him not respecting the time and effort the other guys put in and not taking it seriously.

ps im not a DM fanboy

[Izulde]

The Marino-hating is fucking bullshit. He never had a running game worth mentioning. EVER.

As for defense, outside of Offerdahl, there was jack shit there.

Then Jimmy Johnson comes in and fucking takes away all of Marino's receivers. I hope to God somebody snipes that overrated fat fuck some day.

Put Marino on any team that had a good, not even great, but GOOD running back and a good defense and he wins at least one Super Bowl title.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dan Marino is the worst QB I have ever seen. He wasn't half the QB that Mark Rypien or John Friesz was.
He couldn't hold Casey Weldon's jock.

[Kodos]

The Marino-hating is fucking bullshit. He never had a running game worth mentioning. EVER.

As for defense, outside of Offerdahl, there was jack shit there.

Then Jimmy Johnson comes in and fucking takes away all of Marino's receivers. I hope to God somebody snipes that overrated fat fuck some day.

Put Marino on any team that had a good, not even great, but GOOD running back and a good defense and he wins at least one Super Bowl title.

I <3 Izulde. :)

[WVUFAN]

Seeing how the game was in Miami, it was his personal tribute to Marino.

I'm a big New England fan, so it pains me to say this, but take away the Super Bowls, and Brady's an average QB. It says something that Marino can be considered by many to be a top 3 QB of all time and he doesn't have a ring to pad his record.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Damn it, I've had enough of this bullshit! If you can't win a damned Super Bowl with motherfucking Irving Spikes in your backfield, you shouldn't even be in the NFL. And defense? Defense? What? Louis Oliver isn't good enough for you? Aubrey Beavers? This is world-class motherfucking bullshit right here, and I'm sick and tired of the Marino buttwipers trying to convince us that he's worth a fucking shit.

Dan Marino had top-flight punters like Dale Hatcher and John Kidd. I don't want to hear any more of this garbage about how he didn't have players around him. He played with Bobby Humphrey. That's right. The Bobby Humphrey. Don't give me any more of this crap. He had everything in the world and more to work with, and he couldn't even win more than one AFC championship. Fucking bullshit. Dan Marino could only beat two things: a motherfucking desk and himself.

Fuck Dan Marino.

[rkmsuf]

I'm a big New England fan, so it pains me to say this, but take away the Super Bowls, and Brady's an average QB. It says something that Marino can be considered by many to be a top 3 QB of all time and he doesn't have a ring to pad his record.

you are excused from further comment

[gottimd]

I'm a big New England fan, so it pains me to say this, but take away the Super Bowls, and Brady's an average QB. It says something that Marino can be considered by many to be a top 3 QB of all time and he doesn't have a ring to pad his record.

I think I just heard ST. CRONIN yell at you from here.

[Pumpy Tudors]

DOUG NUSSMEIER 4 LYFE

[rkmsuf]

I think I just heard St. Cronin yell at you from here.

would you people please stop capitalizing his name

[st.cronin]

I'm a big New England fan, so it pains me to say this, but take away the Super Bowls, and Brady's an average QB. It says something that Marino can be considered by many to be a top 3 QB of all time and he doesn't have a ring to pad his record.

Yes, exactly!

Also ... take away Roger Clemens fastball, and he's at best an average pitcher ... take away all of Patton's victories, and he's just another general ... take away Einstein's theory of relativity, and he's just another patent clerk ... take away the Resurrection, and Jesus is just another nutty rabbi ... etc.

[Kodos]

Yes, exactly!

Also ... take away Roger Clemens fastball, and he's at best an average pitcher ... take away all of Patton's victories, and he's just another general ... take away Einstein's theory of relativity, and he's just another patent clerk ... take away the Resurrection, and Jesus is just another nutty rabbi ... take away the Supreme Court and George Bush is just another draft dodger... etc.

:)

[st.cronin]

not bad, Kodos

[Surtt]

... take away Einstein's theory of relativity, and he's just another patent clerk ...

What is with the Einstein hating?

Einstein won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1921 for his discovery of the photoelectric effect. It had nothing to do with his more famous theory of relativity. So take it away and he is still a world class physicist. And its not like he ever had a running game or a defense.


If Marino had a running game and a defense, he might have a ring, but I doubt he would own all the records he does.

[MalcPow]

Damn it, I've had enough of this bullshit! If you can't win a damned Super Bowl with motherfucking Irving Spikes in your backfield, you shouldn't even be in the NFL. And defense? Defense? What? Louis Oliver isn't good enough for you? Aubrey Beavers? This is world-class motherfucking bullshit right here, and I'm sick and tired of the Marino buttwipers trying to convince us that he's worth a fucking shit.

Dan Marino had top-flight punters like Dale Hatcher and John Kidd. I don't want to hear any more of this garbage about how he didn't have players around him. He played with Bobby Humphrey. That's right. The Bobby Humphrey. Don't give me any more of this crap. He had everything in the world and more to work with, and he couldn't even win more than one AFC championship. Fucking bullshit. Dan Marino could only beat two things: a motherfucking desk and himself.

Fuck Dan Marino.

Amen :)

[KWhit]

Donkey.

Marino flubs a line and acts like the girl we all knew he was.
hxxp://thatvideosite.com/video/3727

Sportdigs had that video 2 weeks ago.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Sportdigs had that video 2 weeks ago.
what is sportdigs

[Passacaglia]

Didn't Reggie Roby make it into the hall of fame?

[Desnudo]

Damn it, I've had enough of this bullshit! If you can't win a damned Super Bowl with motherfucking Irving Spikes in your backfield, you shouldn't even be in the NFL. And defense? Defense? What? Louis Oliver isn't good enough for you? Aubrey Beavers? This is world-class motherfucking bullshit right here, and I'm sick and tired of the Marino buttwipers trying to convince us that he's worth a fucking shit.

Dan Marino had top-flight punters like Dale Hatcher and John Kidd. I don't want to hear any more of this garbage about how he didn't have players around him. He played with Bobby Humphrey. That's right. The Bobby Humphrey. Don't give me any more of this crap. He had everything in the world and more to work with, and he couldn't even win more than one AFC championship. Fucking bullshit. Dan Marino could only beat two things: a motherfucking desk and himself.

Fuck Dan Marino.

Damn right. Preach it brother!

[WVUFAN]

Yes, exactly!

Also ... take away Roger Clemens fastball, and he's at best an average pitcher ... take away all of Patton's victories, and he's just another general ... take away Einstein's theory of relativity, and he's just another patent clerk ... take away the Resurrection, and Jesus is just another nutty rabbi ... etc.

You can be a bad QB and win Super Bowls ... ask Trent Dilfer.

My point is that Marino is considered one of the best QB's in history even without the Super Bowl victories. He did so without the teams that Brady had. If the ONLY thing you have going for you is the Super Bowl victories, it does not mean you're a good QB.

I consider Tedy Bruschi more of a value to the Super Bowls wins that Brady was. Two of the three wins were done by defense, not Brady. The rest of the Patriots outside of Brady do not get the credit they deserve.

Brady's good, but he's not the end-all.

[Alan T]

What is with the Einstein hating?

Einstein won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1921 for his discovery of the photoelectric effect. It had nothing to do with his more famous theory of relativity. So take it away and he is still a world class physicist. And its not like he ever had a running game or a defense.


If Marino had a running game and a defense, he might have a ring, but I doubt he would own all the records he does.

I think this is a very underrated post :)

[Pumpy Tudors]

man why you all gotta be hating on brady up in here too

tuck off :mad:

[Passacaglia]

What's with all the Brady hating? Take away his success with the Patriots, and he's still a guy who couldn't win the starting job as a senior in college. Uh, never mind.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Take away the University of Michigan and there are no good football teams in that entire state!

I got nothing.

[Rizon]

Put Marino on any team that had a good, not even great, but GOOD running back and a good defense and he wins at least one Super Bowl title.

Dude would have won the SP at least 10 times, probably 15.