FOF2K4: Sharin' A Little 4-1-1 For The Preseason

[Ben E Lou]

This is pretty logical, but I'd never thought of it before late last preseason.

ASSUMPTION: Playing-time based player development appears to be based on number of plays on the field, not number of games.

Based on the assumption above, the logic flows as follows:

1. To maximize player development, one would want to maximize number of plays on the field. Obviously, setting depth charts and playing times is one way to do this. However, it hit me during last preseason that another way to increase number of plays on the field is to, well, increase the number of plays.

2. The best way to increase the number of plays is to stop the clock a maximum number of times.

3. To stop the clock a maximum number of times, turnovers and incompletions should be maximized.

4. To maximize the number of turnovers and incompletions, throw as deep as possible on every single play.

I've tested this in SP. The number of plays increases by around 10-15% when one team throws deep on every single down. Over the course of four preseason games (and five test runs), my test team consistently averaged more points of growth in current value than when I did five test runs with default game plans.

What's more noticeable is that the effect is increased in multiplayer, in all likelihood due to less switching to run-heavy late in wins. I was just looking at the boxscore of Tucker's last preseason game of 2011. 157 total plays were run in that one, because we played pass-oriented Chesapeake.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/games/boxscore.php?gameid=2373

By comparison, over the course of the 2011 regular season, Tucker averaged 125.4 plays per game. The high? That ugly game against Chesapeake where both of our passing games stunk but we still threw a lot. We combined for 140 plays in that one.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/games/boxscore.php?gameid=2579

As I said, when ONE team does this, the total plays increase by 10-15%. That number was based on AI teams running their stock gameplans. As you can see by the box score when both of us threw a bunch in the preseason, the number of plays increased by more like 25%. Note that Quik ran a decent bit in that one. Taking this to its logical conclusion, testing two allpass multiplayer teams versus one another we get the following:

Box Score: Maassluis at Tucker
Tucker, GA.

Exhibition Week 2, 2004

Attendance: 66,200 (75,300).


Weather: 81 degrees, fair.

1Q: 13:18 MAA - Bob Manns 23 pass from Adrian Aschenbrenner.
1Q: 13:18 MAA - Lester LaChapelle extra point.
1Q: 05:49 MAA - Lester LaChapelle 48 field goal.
1Q: 00:33 MAA - Lester LaChapelle 45 field goal.
2Q: 03:46 MAA - Bob Manns 9 pass from Norbert Ferraro.
2Q: 03:46 MAA - Lester LaChapelle extra point.
2Q: 00:20 MAA - Marvin Fears 60 punt return.
2Q: 00:20 MAA - Lester LaChapelle extra point.
3Q: 11:52 MAA - Bob Manns 1 pass from Norbert Ferraro.
3Q: 11:52 MAA - Lester LaChapelle extra point.
4Q: 10:35 MAA - Lester LaChapelle 25 field goal.
4Q: 03:53 TUC - Andy Schalk 24 field goal.

Game MVP: MAA 44 Buddy Choisser

Maassluis 13 14 7 3 - 37
Tucker 0 0 0 3 - 3

Team Statistics MAA TUC

First Downs 14 14

Total Rushes 7 11
Rushing Yards 16 27
Yards Per Carry 2.2 2.4
Pass Attempts 75 80
Completions 12 7
Passing Yards 267 178
Yards Per Attempt 3.5 2.2
Sacked 8 5
Yards Lost 57 40
Interceptions 4 6
Fumbles/Lost 1/0 1/0

Total Plays 90 96
Total Yards 226 165
Yards Per Play 2.5 1.7

3rd Down Plays 6/25 5/26
Avg. YTG on 3rd 10.4 10.7
4th Down Plays 0/0 0/1

Penalties 14 6
Penalty Yards 106 101

Avg. Drive Start OWN 36 OWN 27
Time Of Possession 30:26 29:34

Maassluis Individual Statistics

Rushing Att Yards Avg Long TD
26 Wannamaker 3 3 1.0 2 0
15 Klingbiel 2 7 3.5 4 0
13 Aschenbrenner 1 4 4.0 4 0
27 Surry 1 2 2.0 2 0

Passing Att Comp Yards Yd/Att Long TD Int Sckd
13 Aschenbrenner 34 6 178 5.2 59 1 0 3
15 Klingbiel 24 1 14 0.5 14 0 2 3
10 Ferraro 17 5 75 4.4 46 2 2 2

Receiving Catch Yards Avg YAC Long TD
82 Peterson 6 151 25.1 19 59 0
88 Manns 4 47 11.7 0 23 3
26 Wannamaker 2 69 34.5 1 55 0

Punt Returns Att Yards Avg TD
85 Fears 6 65 10.8 1
38 Sulfsted 2 -2 -1.0 0

Kick Returns Att Yards Avg TD

Punting Punts Yards Avg Long In20
1 Donaldson 13 555 42.6 58 3

Kicking FG FGA Long PAT Att
9 LaChapelle 3 4 48 4 4

Defense Tackle Assist Sack Int IntYds IntTD
38 Sulfsted 4 0 0.0 0 0 0
45 Corwin 3 2 0.0 2 49 0
44 Choisser 3 1 0.0 2 20 0
42 Callis 3 1 0.0 1 45 0
26 Wannamaker 3 0 0.0 0 0 0
78 Stevison 2 0 1.0 0 0 0
43 Barkley 2 0 0.0 1 0 0
88 Manns 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
72 Brady 1 1 1.0 0 0 0
74 Bulluck 1 1 1.0 0 0 0
21 Bradley 1 0 1.0 0 0 0
73 Kolberg 1 0 0.5 0 0 0
55 Devine 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
99 Jammer 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
47 Hansen 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
86 Hanson 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
82 Peterson 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
70 Shula 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
27 Surry 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
49 Starks 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
92 Douglas 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
54 Wayne 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
97 McGregor 0 1 0.5 0 0 0
95 Callahan 0 1 0.0 0 0 0

Miscellaneous Fumb FForc Recov MiscTD KeyRBlk SckAlwd
28 Peterson 0 0 0 0 0 1
64 Byers 0 0 0 0 0 3
50 Ramsey 0 0 0 0 0 1
70 Shula 0 1 0 0 0 1
63 Owens 0 0 0 0 0 1
55 Devine 0 0 0 0 0 1
85 Fears 1 0 0 0 0 0
90 Machado 0 0 1 0 0 0

Tucker Individual Statistics

Rushing Att Yards Avg Long TD
4 Southrey 4 17 4.2 8 0
47 Rodgers 2 -2 -1.0 -1 0
32 Brentley 2 -2 -1.0 -1 0
17 Hurtado 1 3 3.0 3 0
35 Stanberry 1 4 4.0 4 0
21 Tribble 1 7 7.0 7 0

Passing Att Comp Yards Yd/Att Long TD Int Sckd
4 Southrey 46 4 102 2.2 60 0 3 2
17 Hurtado 21 1 15 0.7 15 0 2 3
6 Carman 13 2 61 4.6 47 0 1 0

Receiving Catch Yards Avg YAC Long TD
83 McGregor 3 120 40.0 6 60 0
81 Milts 2 29 14.5 1 15 0
82 Cochrane 1 15 15.0 0 15 0
89 Robinson 1 14 14.0 0 14 0

Punt Returns Att Yards Avg TD
85 Zimmerman 3 28 9.3 0
82 Cochrane 2 0 0.0 0

Kick Returns Att Yards Avg TD
41 Withrow 2 33 16.5 0
82 Cochrane 1 19 19.0 0
86 Davidson 1 16 16.0 0

Punting Punts Yards Avg Long In20
8 Rodriguez 17 724 42.5 52 1

Kicking FG FGA Long PAT Att
14 Schalk 1 1 24 0 0

Defense Tackle Assist Sack Int IntYds IntTD
45 Lyon 4 2 0.0 1 0 0
79 Regalado 3 0 2.0 0 0 0
41 Withrow 3 2 0.0 2 0 0
22 Raag 3 0 0.0 0 0 0
96 Bailey 2 0 2.0 0 0 0
73 Traylor 2 0 2.0 0 0 0
91 Davis 2 0 0.5 0 0 0
17 Hurtado 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
60 Francis 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
42 Krause 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
33 Kus 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
97 Lasica 1 0 1.0 0 0 0
38 Melnik 1 1 0.0 0 0 0
27 Drake 1 0 0.0 1 0 0
83 McGregor 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
29 Miller 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
89 Robinson 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
65 Dawson 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
67 Endsley 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
6 Carman 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
81 Milts 1 0 0.0 0 0 0
72 Kemp 0 1 0.5 0 0 0
95 Escamilla 0 1 0.0 0 0 0
90 Hampton 0 1 0.0 0 0 0

Miscellaneous Fumb FForc Recov MiscTD KeyRBlk SckAlwd
65 Dawson 0 0 0 0 0 1
52 Cooper 0 0 0 0 0 1
60 Francis 0 0 0 0 0 3
29 Miller 0 1 0 0 0 0
82 Cochrane 1 0 0 0 0 0
79 Regalado 0 0 1 0 0 0

Maassluis Drive Chart
Quar Began Poss From Plays Yards Result
1 15:00 1:42 OWN 20 3 80 Touchdown
1 12:10 1:24 OWN 41 6 15 Punt
1 8:48 2:59 OWN 39 9 30 Field Goal
1 4:08 0:33 OWN 22 3 0 Punt
1 2:28 1:55 OWN 19 5 53 Field Goal
2 11:54 1:19 OPP 43 6 7 Punt
2 10:01 0:39 OWN 45 3 0 Punt
2 8:45 1:34 OWN 20 3 -13 Punt
2 5:12 0:45 OWN 20 3 0 Punt
2 3:53 0:07 OPP 9 1 9 Touchdown
2 2:33 1:37 OWN 33 4 14 Interception
3 14:48 0:36 OWN 42 3 0 Punt
3 13:08 1:16 OWN 48 4 52 Touchdown
3 10:14 1:08 OWN 18 6 15 Punt
3 7:14 1:00 OPP 48 2 0 Interception
3 5:36 0:36 OPP 38 3 -5 Punt
3 2:36 0:34 OWN 34 3 0 Interception
3 0:20 0:28 OWN 27 3 0 Interception
4 13:46 1:12 OWN 20 3 49 Missed FG
4 11:03 0:28 OPP 8 3 0 Field Goal
4 9:17 1:08 OWN 25 3 -16 Punt
4 8:00 1:22 OWN 20 3 -10 Punt
4 5:43 0:38 OWN 20 3 0 Punt
4 3:53 2:09 OWN 20 6 18 Punt
4 0:18 0:18 OWN 25 1 -6 Game

Tucker Drive Chart
Quar Began Poss From Plays Yards Result
1 13:18 1:08 OWN 14 3 0 Punt
1 10:46 1:58 OWN 20 4 15 Interception
1 5:49 1:41 OWN 30 3 7 Punt
1 3:35 1:07 OWN 36 3 4 Punt
1 0:33 3:39 OWN 7 10 36 Downs
2 10:35 0:34 OWN 3 3 0 Punt
2 9:22 0:37 OWN 37 3 0 Punt
2 7:11 1:59 OPP 46 8 4 Punt
2 4:27 0:34 OWN 40 3 0 Interception
2 3:46 1:13 OWN 14 3 0 Punt
2 0:56 0:36 OWN 9 3 0 Punt
2 0:20 0:20 OWN 10 1 60 Half
3 15:00 0:12 OWN 20 1 0 Interception
3 14:12 1:04 OWN 20 3 0 Punt
3 11:52 1:38 OWN 18 3 8 Punt
3 9:06 1:52 OWN 27 4 -2 Punt
3 6:14 0:38 OWN 4 3 0 Punt
3 5:00 2:24 OWN 20 8 19 Punt
3 2:02 1:42 OPP 48 3 -23 Punt
4 14:52 1:06 OPP 41 3 3 Punt
4 12:34 1:31 OWN 38 3 -2 Interception
4 10:35 1:18 OWN 28 3 0 Punt
4 8:09 0:09 OWN 48 1 0 Interception
4 6:38 0:55 50 3 10 Interception
4 5:05 1:12 OWN 41 6 52 Field Goal
4 1:44 1:26 OWN 14 6 14 Punt

Maassluis Red Zone Profile
Visits TDs FGs
2 1 1

Tucker Red Zone Profile
Visits TDs FGs
1 0 1

Maassluis Rushing Breakdown

Direction Rush Yards Ave
Left 1 2 2.0
Middle 6 14 2.3
Right 0 0 0.0
None 0 0 0.0

Run Blocking KeyBlks BlkOpps RunPlays
64 Byers 0 2 4
55 Devine 0 1 7
63 Owens 0 1 6
26 Wannamaker 0 0 7
82 Peterson 0 0 7
88 Manns 0 0 7
70 Shula 0 0 6
61 Mundy 0 0 6
87 Erickson 0 0 4
28 Peterson 0 0 4
50 Ramsey 0 0 3
71 Whitted 0 0 2
66 Herttna 0 0 1

Maassluis Passing Breakdown

Distance Pass Comp Yards Ave
Screen 0 0 0 0.0
Short (0-8 Yds) 3 2 6 2.0
Medium (9-18 Yds) 23 6 78 3.3
Long (19+ Yds) 49 4 183 3.7

Passing Attempt Comp BdThrw Dropd Defnsd Blockd Hurried Intrcpt
13 Aschenbrenner 34 6 3 8 8 1 7 0
15 Klingbiel 24 1 3 2 9 1 5 2
10 Ferraro 17 5 5 2 0 1 2 2

Receiving Target Caught Dropd Yards PassPlay
82 Peterson 31 6 5 151 82
88 Manns 23 4 4 47 82
85 Fears 12 0 2 0 37
26 Wannamaker 9 2 1 69 80

Pass Block SckAlwd PassPlay
70 Shula 1 82
26 Wannamaker 0 80
55 Devine 1 78
28 Peterson 1 67
63 Owens 1 62
50 Ramsey 1 56
61 Mundy 0 56
64 Byers 3 50
71 Whitted 0 30
66 Herttna 0 1

Pass Rush Sacks PsBlks Hurries PassPlay
78 Stevison 1.0 1 1 39
72 Brady 1.0 0 3 73
21 Bradley 1.0 0 2 43
74 Bulluck 1.0 0 0 47
73 Kolberg 0.5 1 2 65
97 McGregor 0.5 0 4 46
38 Sulfsted 0.0 0 1 68
44 Choisser 0.0 0 0 67
43 Barkley 0.0 0 0 62
42 Callis 0.0 0 0 62
95 Callahan 0.0 0 1 50
45 Corwin 0.0 0 0 58
46 Wilson 0.0 0 0 49
90 Machado 0.0 0 0 47
49 Starks 0.0 0 0 46
98 Langlois 0.0 0 0 32
91 Halvorson 0.0 0 0 21
92 Douglas 0.0 0 0 20
54 Wayne 0.0 0 0 18
99 Jammer 0.0 0 0 16
59 Reilly 0.0 0 0 6

Pass Defense Caught Defnsd Intrcpt PassPlay
38 Sulfsted 3 1 0 68
42 Callis 1 4 1 62
43 Barkley 1 2 1 62
45 Corwin 1 1 2 58
49 Starks 1 1 0 46
44 Choisser 0 9 2 67
46 Wilson 0 3 0 49
21 Bradley 0 2 0 43
72 Brady 0 1 0 73
91 Halvorson 0 1 0 21
73 Kolberg 0 0 0 65
95 Callahan 0 0 0 50
90 Machado 0 0 0 47
74 Bulluck 0 0 0 47
97 McGregor 0 0 0 46
78 Stevison 0 0 0 39
98 Langlois 0 0 0 32
92 Douglas 0 0 0 20
54 Wayne 0 0 0 18
99 Jammer 0 0 0 16
59 Reilly 0 0 0 6

Defense Tackles Assists RunPlay PassPlay
38 Sulfsted 4 0 11 68
45 Corwin 3 2 7 58
44 Choisser 3 1 9 67
42 Callis 3 1 8 62
43 Barkley 2 0 6 62
78 Stevison 2 0 3 39
72 Brady 1 1 7 73
74 Bulluck 1 1 7 47
73 Kolberg 1 0 8 65
49 Starks 1 0 7 46
21 Bradley 1 0 6 43
92 Douglas 1 0 4 20
99 Jammer 1 0 3 16
54 Wayne 1 0 1 18
95 Callahan 0 1 7 50
97 McGregor 0 1 8 46
46 Wilson 0 0 7 49
90 Machado 0 0 8 47
98 Langlois 0 0 2 32
91 Halvorson 0 0 2 21
59 Reilly 0 0 0 6

Tucker Rushing Breakdown

Direction Rush Yards Ave
Left 1 -1 -1.0
Middle 8 17 2.1
Right 2 11 5.5
None 0 0 0.0

Run Blocking KeyBlks BlkOpps RunPlays
81 Milts 0 1 11
35 Stanberry 0 1 9
52 Cooper 0 1 9
76 Vosicky 0 1 8
42 Krause 0 1 4
68 Ozols 0 1 4
83 McGregor 0 0 11
75 Bridges 0 0 10
60 Francis 0 0 9
89 Robinson 0 0 9
65 Dawson 0 0 7
67 Endsley 0 0 6
54 Lofton 0 0 2

Tucker Passing Breakdown

Distance Pass Comp Yards Ave
Screen 0 0 0 0.0
Short (0-8 Yds) 1 0 0 0.0
Medium (9-18 Yds) 21 5 71 3.3
Long (19+ Yds) 58 2 107 1.8

Passing Attempt Comp BdThrw Dropd Defnsd Blockd Hurried Intrcpt
4 Southrey 46 4 11 3 15 2 7 3
17 Hurtado 21 1 1 6 6 0 5 2
6 Carman 13 2 2 2 4 0 2 1

Receiving Target Caught Dropd Yards PassPlay
83 McGregor 32 3 5 120 85
81 Milts 25 2 3 29 85
82 Cochrane 10 1 1 15 17
89 Robinson 9 1 2 14 68
32 Brentley 2 0 0 0 19
35 Stanberry 1 0 0 0 76
21 Tribble 1 0 0 0 34

Pass Block SckAlwd PassPlay
60 Francis 3 78
75 Bridges 0 78
35 Stanberry 0 76
52 Cooper 1 70
65 Dawson 1 64
76 Vosicky 0 56
42 Krause 0 39
68 Ozols 0 38
67 Endsley 0 27
54 Lofton 0 14

Pass Rush Sacks PsBlks Hurries PassPlay
79 Regalado 2.0 2 1 70
73 Traylor 2.0 0 2 39
96 Bailey 2.0 0 0 39
97 Lasica 1.0 1 3 39
72 Kemp 0.5 0 5 72
91 Davis 0.5 0 1 63
45 Lyon 0.0 0 1 74
27 Drake 0.0 0 0 74
22 Raag 0.0 0 0 60
41 Withrow 0.0 0 0 59
59 Bradford 0.0 0 1 48
38 Melnik 0.0 0 0 54
33 Kus 0.0 0 0 47
90 Hampton 0.0 0 0 38
29 Miller 0.0 0 0 34
95 Escamilla 0.0 0 0 33
30 Johannsen 0.0 0 0 25
53 Delgado 0.0 0 0 21
51 Fogg 0.0 0 0 11
92 Ridley 0.0 0 0 10
94 Sunderland 0.0 0 0 3

Pass Defense Caught Defnsd Intrcpt PassPlay
45 Lyon 5 2 1 74
33 Kus 2 3 0 47
22 Raag 1 4 0 60
38 Melnik 1 4 0 54
41 Withrow 1 1 2 59
79 Regalado 1 0 0 70
51 Fogg 1 0 0 11
27 Drake 0 1 1 74
30 Johannsen 0 1 0 25
53 Delgado 0 1 0 21
72 Kemp 0 0 0 72
91 Davis 0 0 0 63
59 Bradford 0 0 0 48
96 Bailey 0 0 0 39
73 Traylor 0 0 0 39
97 Lasica 0 0 0 39
90 Hampton 0 0 0 38
29 Miller 0 0 0 34
95 Escamilla 0 0 0 33
92 Ridley 0 0 0 10
94 Sunderland 0 0 0 3

Defense Tackles Assists RunPlay PassPlay
45 Lyon 4 2 6 74
41 Withrow 3 2 6 59
79 Regalado 3 0 5 70
22 Raag 3 0 7 60
91 Davis 2 0 6 63
33 Kus 2 0 2 47
73 Traylor 2 0 4 39
96 Bailey 2 0 3 39
38 Melnik 1 1 3 54
27 Drake 1 0 6 74
97 Lasica 1 0 2 39
29 Miller 1 0 4 34
72 Kemp 0 1 7 72
90 Hampton 0 1 3 38
95 Escamilla 0 1 3 33
59 Bradford 0 0 4 48
30 Johannsen 0 0 2 25
53 Delgado 0 0 1 21
51 Fogg 0 0 1 11
92 Ridley 0 0 1 10
94 Sunderland 0 0 1 3

So, by passing a ton on both sides, expecting the pass, etc., 186 total plays were run in one game, or nearly 50% more than the number that Tucker ran during the 2011 regular season--a significant boost to preseason player development, roughly the equivalent of adding two extra preseason games, actually.

[yabanci]

seems like a desperate way to pick up an extra point or two... /shrug

[gottimd]

So what about if you want those extra points of development for a RB?

[Ben E Lou]

So what about if you want those extra points of development for a RB?You're making the assumption that development is based on carries. I haven't 100% verified it yet through isolated testing, but it appears to be more based on plays for which he's on the field. One thing is certain: more overall team development happens when more plays are run.

[Ben E Lou]

seems like a desperate way to pick up an extra point or two... /shrugWhat else is the preseason good for?

[Grammaticus]

It still seems like taking advantage of the AI.

[Ben E Lou]

It still seems like taking advantage of the AI.Not in a multiplayer league.

[flere-imsaho]

You might as well link up the CFL thread, SkyDog.

[Ben E Lou]

You might as well link up the CFL thread, SkyDog.That has nothing to do with my intentions for posting this.

[Subby]

Nice work!

[flere-imsaho]

That has nothing to do with my intentions for posting this.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I think there may be some valid concerns about doing this in a MP league, and some of those concerns have been voiced in the CFL. Perhaps FOFC as a whole may want to discuss/debunk those concerns.

[Grammaticus]

:lipsrsealed: Not in a multiplayer league.
True and it is probably better to let it happen in multi player rather than make some cumbersome rule regarding gameplans.

[Ben E Lou]

Flare, but how do you legislate against it? Is 10% running too little? 20%? Force people to use the AI-suggested gameplans in the preseasons???

[VPI97]

Hopefully, this relevation will lead to a revamp of the pre-season in FOF.

[flere-imsaho]

As was pointed out in the CFL, we'd rather not legislate against it. What we would prefer is for each GM is to practice some common courtesy and common sense towards their other GMs.

Your preseason gameplans have the unintended consequence of getting parts of your opponents' teams on the field a lot more. Therefore, it's very likely some of those GM's starters will see the field a lot more than they intended, and thus be more susceptible to an injury happening. That's an unintended consequence.

Since the #1 goal of preseason is to not have your most important players get injured, it seems to me that the common courtesy and common sense thing to do would be to give your preseason opponents a heads-up, and, even better, see if the two of you can work out gameplans for that game that will benefit the both of you.

I don't want to legislate against it, but I'm not quite comfortable with you "springing" it on a MP league like this. And I think Raven Hawk has a right to be upset, given that your wildly-skewed preseason gameplan put two of his key offensive linemen at considerably more risk of injury than he had planned.

[Subby]

Turn off injuries in pre-season...

[VPI97]

Turn off injuries in pre-season...
Yep...if the primary goal of MP pre-season has turned into a battle to not get starters injured, it makes no sense to keep injuries on for those games. People want to argue the realism factor, but is benching & inactivating starters right and left any more realistic than having no injuries? Neither are realistic, but somehow the former is accepted while the latter is not.

[Ben E Lou]

Hopefully, this relevation will lead to a revamp of the pre-season in FOF.Well, I certainly didn't post this just to be nice. ;)

[Celeval]

CFL thread?

[cuervo72]

Well, I don't think preseason is going to be all that realistic anyway. Injuries or not, there's still no real reason to play anybody who is completely filled out, only guys who you're trying to develop. If he's already 77/77, I'm still sitting Jackie Percy, as there's no real growth potential (apparent, anyway).

[Subby]

CFL thread?I am guessing this one (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

[Ben E Lou]

I don't want to legislate against it, but I'm not quite comfortable with you "springing" it on a MP league like this.Maybe I'm the first person in CFL to go all-pass or all-run in a preseason game, but I'm certainly not the first in multiplayer to do it. I don't think it was "sprung" on anyone.

And I think Raven Hawk has a right to be upset, given that your wildly-skewed preseason gameplan put two of his key offensive linemen at considerably more risk of injury than he had planned.With the ability to keep over 2/3 of your starters from playing in the preseason, I'd say it is his own fault if he left TWO key offensive linemen starting and they got hurt.

[jbmagic]

Won't more plays with bad stats performance decrease a player development too right?

More plays can also lead to more injuries.

[Solecismic]

Difficult problem here. The easy answer is that NFL teams are courteous to each other and to the fans. The league has a vested interest in teams at least pretending to be competitive during the pre-season.

So, if a coach did what Ben did, it's likely the league office would take action to prevent it from happening again.

Young players would develop more if games were extended in this manner, but fans would become irate if games were treated as an extended practice session.

The pre-season is an extended practice session, however. That's the pretense we're asked to go along with when we buy our NFL season tickets. The NFL just won't admit it, while baseball teams openly admit it and don't require their fans to travel to Florida and purchase tickets to those games.

As far as FOF is concerned, one change that's on the list (usual evasive verbiage about which game is next, and when) is that players will need to get in a certain amount of playing time to remove the "rust" each season. The second change is that my research suggests young players aren't quite developing fast enough in FOF. So that will change a little.

I'm not going into the details of how all this works in FOF, but given the injury risks and the peer pressure, I would suspect that MP leagues should act as the NFL would, and adopt an "I don't like what I see, please stop it" policy for this type of behavior. Because it would be fairly difficult, and include extremely little reward for the gamer, to create an economic disincentive and/or a nagging commissioner's role in the game.

[jbmagic]

One way is to have the FOF gameplans % for runs and pass have a minimum and maximum % you can set it too.

This way we won't have these extreme gameplans being made.

[Subby]

One way is to have the FOF gameplans % for runs and pass have a minimum and maximum % you can set it too.

This way we won't have these extreme gameplans being made.I think each league should have a gameplan czar that goes in and inspects the gameplan settings of each and every team before each game. Not only would that make the game more fun for everyone, it would close the gap between the cheaters and those folks whoare JUST TRYING TO KEEP IT REAZZY!!!

[QuikSand]

I just can't imagine any MP league thinking about trying to ban this practice having such a proposal pass the common sense "juice worth the squeeze" test. The exhibition games in FOF are demonstrably pointless in most respects -- who on earth would a league invest meaningful resources into setting rules on how "realistically" they are being played?

Nice thread, SkyDog, good idea, and I see no problem with it.

[cthomer5000]

I just can't imagine any MP league thinking about trying to ban this practice having such a proposal pass the common sense "juice worth the squeeze" test. The exhibition games in FOF are demonstrably pointless in most respects -- who on earth would a league invest meaningful resources into setting rules on how "realistically" they are being played?

Nice thread, SkyDog, good idea, and I see no problem with it. Agreed on all counts.

[jbmagic]

One way is to have the FOF gameplans % for runs and pass have a minimum and maximum % you can set it too.

This way we won't have these extreme gameplans being made.


Hopefully Jim will add this on the next version of FOF.

[Ben E Lou]

As far as FOF is concerned, one change that's on the list (usual evasive verbiage about which game is next, and when) is that players will need to get in a certain amount of playing time to remove the "rust" each season.That's great news! My hope would be that this will vary from player to player in accordance with overall experience, experience on the current team, and other factors, to the point that none of us can ever come up with a formula to find out EXACTLY how much playing time a player of X years experience and Y years on the team needs to remove the "rust."

[Ben E Lou]

Hopefully Jim will add this on the next version of FOF.Hopefully he'll add Subby's gameplan czar idea as required for all multiplayer leagues, too.

[Celeval]

One way is to have the FOF gameplans % for runs and pass have a minimum and maximum % you can set it too.

This way we won't have these extreme gameplans being made.

This I don't like. There are plenty of situations where extreme gameplans are warranted.

[Solecismic]

I just can't imagine any MP league thinking about trying to ban this practice having such a proposal pass the common sense "juice worth the squeeze" test. The exhibition games in FOF are demonstrably pointless in most respects -- who on earth would a league invest meaningful resources into setting rules on how "realistically" they are being played?

Nice thread, SkyDog, good idea, and I see no problem with it.

Pre-season games are similarly demonstrably pointless in the NFL, as well. What Ben has done is illustrate a scenario that could just as easily apply to the NFL, but doesn't, exactly because teams adhere to an informal "realism" policy..

It's a very good argument against turning off the injury sliders for the pre-season, as well.

If you read what many NFL people say about the pre-season (and there's a new push to expand the season to 18 games and reduce the pre-season to two games), it becomes clear that this exact sort of discussion has gone on at the NFL level. I think there's a good chance we'll see that change in the next ten years.

I see no need to limit game plan percentages. That doesn't address the issue.

[cthomer5000]

Hopefully Jim will add this on the next version of FOF. worst idea ever.

[Solecismic]

That's great news! My hope would be that this will vary from player to player in accordance with overall experience, experience on the current team, and other factors, to the point that none of us can ever come up with a formula to find out EXACTLY how much playing time a player of X years experience and Y years on the team needs to remove the "rust."

I have an interface planned (and this is subject to change), where you have to choose how many donuts to feed each player every week and how much time he's allowed to spend with his family.

It's a bit cumbersome, but after a couple of new versions, I'll be sure to add a new screen allowing you to set those donut feedings globally, based on position.

[MIJB#19]

So, how to counter this to avoid injuries in MP then? Let the team pass and hope every play results in a completion?

[Riggins44]

I have an interface planned (and this is subject to change), where you have to choose how many donuts to feed each player every week and how much time he's allowed to spend with his family.

It's a bit cumbersome, but after a couple of new versions, I'll be sure to add a new screen allowing you to set those donut feedings globally, based on position.

Ah, the homer simpson feature... I like it. :)

[flere-imsaho]

Jim's post (#24) sums up how I feel about it better than I can (or have). Perhaps the best decision for the MP preseason is to turn off injuries and just sim all 5 weeks at once. Get it done with, at no risk of injuries.

[Ben E Lou]

Perhaps the best decision for the MP preseason is to turn off injuries and just sim all 5 weeks at once. Get it done with, at no risk of injuries.Well done, sir. :D

[Subby]

In FOFL and GEFL we turn off injuries and sim pre-season games 1-3, allow a day in-between for gameplan/roster tweaking, then sim games 4-5. Taking this approach allows us to shave 5-6 days off of the worst part of the off-season...

[Celeval]

Hopefully he'll add Subby's gameplan czar idea as required for all multiplayer leagues, too.

I'm not familiar with this one.

[MIJB#19]

37-3? Boo-yah, SD, we kicked your butt badly! :p

[Subby]

Gameplan Czar checks each every gameplan setting for each and every team before each and every game to ensure they are not cheating.

It geometrically increases the fun quotient.

[Celeval]

Gameplan Czar checks each every gameplan setting for each and every team before each and every game to ensure they are not cheating.

It geometrically increases the fun quotient.

Cheating in what fashion? How can you cheat with your gameplan?

[Subby]

Cheating in what fashion? How can you cheat with your gameplan?Ummm...

[Celeval]

Ummm...

PM me then. :-P

[cthomer5000]

PM me then. :-P Your vision OK today?

[Celeval]

Your vision OK today?

Depends. If we're talking about "extreme" gameplans, then I don't see how that's cheating, especially since the game itself will smack you down if you're trying to seriously run it. If we're not, then I'm obviously having another blind day. :-D

[Ben E Lou]

Depends. If we're talking about "extreme" gameplans, then I don't see how that's cheating, especially since the game itself will smack you down if you're trying to seriously run it. If we're not, then I'm obviously having another blind day. :-DKevin:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1217593&postcount=26

--Ben

[Celeval]

Nevermind, I'm being an idiot. Having missed Subby's czar post before, I thought there was actually an utility out there that did this, similar to the one talked about a while back about policing contract offers.

Nothing new, nothing to see here. Move along. :)

Re: Ben - yeah.. yeah... yeah...

[sovereignstar]

Give it up for the GM of the Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles everyone!

[Pumpy Tudors]

omg fof multiplayer dramabomb

[Ben E Lou]

Let the team pass and hope every play results in a completion?I seriously doubt that would work.

[rkmsuf]

Gameplan Czar checks each every gameplan setting for each and every team before each and every game to ensure they are not cheating.

It geometrically increases the fun quotient.

Gameplan Czar has never heard of girls.

[MIJB#19]

Give it up for the GM of the Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles everyone!
Don't you mean the Bloodthirsty Bengals?

[sovereignstar]

Don't you mean the Bloodthirsty Bengals?

:confused:

[Samdari]

Pre-season games are similarly demonstrably pointless in the NFL, as well.

Well, obviously it is not quite as pointless in the NFL, as most coaches seem to think there is a cohesion benefit to playing stars in the preseason, otherwise, they would NEVER play (like in FOF). It is probably more accurate to say that there is (at least percieved by NFL head coaches) a huge cohesion penalty to not playing starters together in the NFL.

[Celeval]

Well, obviously it is not quite as pointless in the NFL, as most coaches seem to think there is a cohesion benefit to playing stars in the preseason, otherwise, they would NEVER play (like in FOF). It is probably more accurate to say that there is (at least percieved by NFL head coaches) a huge cohesion penalty to not playing starters together in the NFL.

and/or "rust factor".

[Raven Hawk]

Okay, I figured that I should post here, mostly because it was my panties that got in a bunch over at FOFC. Here is my argument regarding the preseason not being pointless.

#1. I don't bench my starters for every game in the preseason because I'm actually using the preseason to hone my offensive and defensive game plans for any new starters who would have joined my team in the offseason. I tend to do this in Game 1 and Game 2. I don't so much mind when other people bench their starters all preseason, because it really doesn't affect anything that I'm doing.

#2. I like preseason because I do actually evaluate talent and have multiple spreadsheets setup to evaluate talent during the preseason. Players have played their way onto my team during the preseason and players have played themselves out of a job during preseason. Most notably is SE Bert Ford that walked into camp three seasons ago and actually ended up being my leading receiver in the 2009 CFL Bowl. If I didn't use the preseason to evaluate talent, he would have never made my team. I tend to bench my starters for Game 3 and Game 4, so I can look at more young talent.

I like playing the game because Jim makes a great game that is very close to managing a real team. If was only about "playing a game" I'd go play Madden and run 50 offensive plays in a game where the quarters are only 5 minutes long. FOF is not perfect, but it is damn close.

I'm much more pissed off about this due to the fact that Skydog's actions put my veterans at risk, whilst only putting his scrubs at risk. While I understand that it is not Skydog's job to protect my players, I would appreciate a little sportsmanship and integrity. To me, this type of game planning feels like an exploit of the game engine.

Just because the preseason means nothing to you doesn't mean that it means nothing to the rest of the owners in your league. I'm not in multiple MP leagues because I'd rather spend extra time developing one team instead of going through the motions on several teams. That makes me very attached to my one team and very serious when I feel that I've been wronged. I'm not calling this cheating, I'm just calling it poor form.

And finally thank you, Jim, for having a true understanding of what your game means to people. I'm glad to hear that there's a "rust" element coming into the game. I can't wait . . . release date around December? ;)

Skydog - per your remark about me "having known better" than to play my veteran starters, once again I tell you to piss off. I'm sick of your elitist smugness. The Pride is going to kick your Beagle ass all over Honolulu in week 16. Additionally, if I've locked my playoff spot (or lack thereof) I may even use my "injure the opposition's" quarterback game plan that I've tested and found to achieve its purpose. It should be just in time for your playoff run. That wouldn't be poor sportsmanship, now would it? :rolleyes:

[cuervo72]

Skydog - per your remark about me "having known better" than to play my veteran starters, once again I tell you to piss off. I'm sick of your elitist smugness.

Then I'll say it: you should have known better.

[Raven Hawk]

Then I'll say it: you should have known better.

Thank you, cuervo. Coming from you it all now makes sense.

[cuervo72]

Sure, anything to help.

[Subby]

Raven Hawk - this is a serious question. Why would you expose your starters to unnecessary injury risk in the pre-season, particulary when there isn't any in-game benefit to doing so?

[Raven Hawk]

Raven Hawk - this is a serious question. Why would you expose your starters to unnecessary injury risk in the pre-season, particulary when there isn't any in-game benefit to doing so?

1. This is a bullshit answer and won't stand up to much - but for a little more realism to the game.

2. A better answer - to dial in my game plans with my new starters.

3. The worst answer (but probably the most true) - Superstition. Seasons where I've started my starters in the preseason for a couple of games, my team has done well and made the playoffs/super bowl. Seasons where I've sat them for all 4, my team has played like crap and missed the playoffs.

Note that I am not the only person in the CFL to do this. I'm pretty sure Aylmar does it with his Seattle Thunderbirds - He made the Conf Championship game last year (and has had a string of winning seasons). Additionally, prior to Skydog taking over Honolulu, MrBug used to let his scouts run his team (not condoning that) but he'd end up playing all his starters in preseason - Won 2 bowls. Sure it's all circumstantial, but it seems to be working for me.

[cuervo72]

Sure it's all circumstantial, but it seems to be working for me.

Likewise, sitting my starters in preseason seems to be working for me.

[cthomer5000]

Stevie Wonder would not approve.

[Ben E Lou]

Note that I am not the only person in the CFL to do this. I'm pretty sure Aylmar does it with his Seattle Thunderbirds - He made the Conf Championship game last year (and has had a string of winning seasons). Additionally, prior to Skydog taking over Honolulu, MrBug used to let his scouts run his team (not condoning that) but he'd end up playing all his starters in preseason - Won 2 bowls. Sure it's all circumstantial, but it seems to be working for me.Considering that Jim practically TOLD us in this very thread (and by making all of his best players inactive during the preseason in IHOF) that there's little/no reason to play starters in the current version, then we're talking pure luck there.

[Raven Hawk]

Likewise, sitting my starters in preseason seems to be working for me.

My point being that if I played a game against you, you sitting your starters would have no/minimal effect on my team. If you changed your game plan to continually give me the ball, it drastically affects my team by creating an unrealistic game, putting any of my players (not necessarily my starters, but key backups as well) at risk of injury without my knowledge or consent.

I'm not going to argue my right to play my starters and your right to sit yours. That argument is done. I accept the fact that people sit their starters all 4 games and I'm fine with that. At the same time, I would ask that you respect my right to play my starters in preseason for whatever reason it is that I deem that I want to start them.

[gottimd]

So how much would punting the ball on first down piss you off?:D

[cuervo72]

My point being that if I played a game against you, you sitting your starters would have no/minimal effect on my team. If you changed your game plan to continually give me the ball, it drastically affects my team by creating an unrealistic game, putting any of my players (not necessarily my starters, but key backups as well) at risk of injury without my knowledge or consent.

I'm not going to argue my right to play my starters and your right to sit yours. That argument is done. I accept the fact that people sit their starters all 4 games and I'm fine with that. At the same time, I would ask that you respect my right to play my starters in preseason for whatever reason it is that I deem that I want to start them.

Well, my point being that if you want to start your regulars and risk injury, have a ball -- just don't blame anyone else when *gasp*, that's what happens.

[Raven Hawk]

Considering that Jim practically TOLD us in this very thread (and by making all of his best players inactive during the preseason in IHOF) that there's little/no reason to play starters in the current version, then we're talking pure luck there.

That's fine, but I reserve my right to use whatever lucky rabbit's foot I deem proper. Luck isn't a manipulation of the game engine used solely to gain an advantage for your team.

[Raven Hawk]

Well, my point being that if you want to start your regulars and risk injury, have a ball -- just don't blame anyone else when *gasp*, that's what happens.

I fully accept the responsibility for my starters getting injured in a realistic game. I'm just saying that what he is doing with his game plan DOES affect the team that he's playing against. What he is doing is not so victimless that we should all just lay down and say "dur dee dur dee dur, Oh, that Skydog, him so smart. Him figure out great way to improve team, while stealing even more reality from the game, dur dee dur dee dur." Yes it was a very clever find, Skydog, kudos to you. Just because its clever doesn't make it right. I believe Mr. Shipman found a clever way to use the Commish settings to negotiate rookie contracts (although I seriously doubt that he was clever enough to come up with that himself, given the examples of his excuses).

Here is my argument down to the bare bones:

What Skydog has discovered, though not technically cheating, is not a fair nor realistic way to play the game.

[TurfToe]

Seeing as though the CFL has poured over to the FOFC board I feel it is my duty, nay, my birthright to come over and post completely off topic.

After going 4-0 in the preseason last year, followed by the actual physical collapse of my entire team, and then waiting until Week 17 for my first regular season win (Arizona - SkyDog was the only other team who couldn't beat me = Loser!) my 2-0 start in the preseason this year is making me nervous.

BTW, did I mention Fonzie is a putz? I didn't? Ok, Fonzie is a putz.

Seems to me the CFL's Ring of Fire division is full of putzes these days.

Ok, maybe a little on topic - I think I will start all of my studs and employ SkyDog's gameplan to see if I can at least get one loss this preseason.

[Samdari]

I would ask that you respect my right to play my starters in preseason for whatever reason it is that I deem that I want to start them.

Your request, on its face, is unreasonable.

You are asking your opponents to allow you to do what you feel is best for your team.

Yet, you are specifically asking your opponents to give up something that would benefit their team in order to do so. Can you not see that?

Is the entire league supposed to run their teams for the benefit of yours? Why stop at limiting their game plans, why not ask them to play their starters, so you can accurately see how these youngsters you are looking at face against realistic competition (surely you must see their performance vs camp fodder is meaningless).

[kcchief19]

I just can't imagine any MP league thinking about trying to ban this practice having such a proposal pass the common sense "juice worth the squeeze" test. The exhibition games in FOF are demonstrably pointless in most respects -- who on earth would a league invest meaningful resources into setting rules on how "realistically" they are being played?
I'm not sure I agree with the idea of "demonstrably pointless." The point largely is to avoid injuries and develop players -- pretty much the same as in the NFL. If the solution is to eliminate the preseason in FOF, I'd be against that because then it's not a football sim.

I agree with Jim that this wouldn't happen in real life, but for many different reasons. One, in real-life development is not merely based on repitition but success. If you go 6-53 with 6 interceptions, you're not going to develop. Two, any team who employed the strategy would end up with their quarterback getting a helmet to the knee until somebody blows out an ACL. And three, fans wouldn't show up for these debacles -- and the third and most important reason to have preseason games is to make money.

Is it worth it? If I were in a league that wanted to ban the practice I'd vote for it in a heartbeat. It's a gimmick -- it's not a strategy designed to take take advantage of the opposing team, it's a strategy designed to exploit a vulnerability in the AI.

What I would want to do is test a gameplan to counteract this -- if SkyDog is playing pass happy and 100 percent look for the run, can you be effective by playing 100 percent look for the pass, blitz his ass off (maybe his QB going down the season will fix things) and then maybe run a ball-control pass offense -- lots of short passes designed to keep the clock running and hold the ball while minimizing his time of possession. Even designing a defense to stop his offense dead might be worthwhile, since then he's forced to determine whether gaining development on defense while losing development on offense would work. If you can force him into that decision, maybe he abandons it.

Nothing personal -- it's a well-thought out and obviously well-tested trick. I give Ben credit for creativity. But it's not something I would feel good about doing in a multiplayer league.

[flere-imsaho]

One more comment.

SkyDog is a recent addition to the CFL, having taken over Honolulu last season. He's been involved for a much longer time in the IHOF.

The two leagues have, in a way, very different cultures. In my opinion, the IHOF is filled with a lot of min/maxers, people who take a lot of time to research the game and get every last ounce of performance out of their teams. The CFL is not. It's considerably more laid back.

I say this because I see a number of IHOFers here casting aspersions on the way the game is played in the CFL, and I don't think you can really do that without taking into consideration the context of the league.

[Raven Hawk]

Your request, on its face, is unreasonable.

You are asking your opponents to allow you to do what you feel is best for your team.

Yet, you are specifically asking your opponents to give up something that would benefit their team in order to do so. Can you not see that?

Is the entire league supposed to run their teams for the benefit of yours? Why stop at limiting their game plans, why not ask them to play their starters, so you can accurately see how these youngsters you are looking at face against realistic competition (surely you must see their performance vs camp fodder is meaningless).

I understand where you are coming from, but that is not what I am requesting. The point was made to show that the strategy is not victimless. I am requesting that people don't manipulate the game engine. I am asking that people keep a little bit of integrity in the game and keep it as realistic as possible. In fact, I'm not even requesting that people do this in every league. I could care less about what other leagues do. I just want to keep the CFL as realistic as possible. This strategy is a strong deviation from reality. If you don't want adhere to realism in your leagues that's fine, I don't care.

At what point is FOF no longer a game but a competition to see who can better manipulate the software?

I'll now take my arguments back to the CFL.

[VPI97]

What Skydog has discovered, though not technically cheating, is not a fair nor realistic way to play the game.
It's not realistic for a team to sign a replacement at QB in the middle of the season and then get good results in the next game without "dumbing down" a gameplan...but that's what happens in FOF since there's no learning curve for new players on your team.

Bottom line is that this is a game which models pro football very well in a lot of respects...but at the same time, it doesn't (and can't) do everything to make playing the game a 100% realistic simulation of professional football. You gotta take the non-realistic stuff to enjoy the realistic stuff.

[Subby]

Again, just a suggestion - but why not just turn injuries off? Then both sides can use their favorite strategies with little to no effect on the other team...

[VPI97]

In my opinion, the IHOF is filled with a lot of min/maxers, people who take a lot of time to research the game and get every last ounce of performance out of their teams.
I wouldn't agree with that statement at all. There's a few guys who may go over the top with researching the game, but I don't think it's the norm. No more than any other league.

[Samdari]

At what point is FOF no longer a game but a competition to see who can better manipulate the software?

These are the same thing. P

You don't want to play FOF, you want to play NFL GM. FOF is an imperfect simulation of the NFL, you can either accept its limitations and play within that framework, or attempt to legislate more realism into an MP league. This is difficult in and of itself due to the differing nature of any randomly selected 32 FOF players' idea of what would realistically model the NFL. What you are doing is asking others to conform to your view of what is realistic.

As for this being a way to "exploit the AI" I could not disagree more. First of all, it is at worst maximizing a (non AI) game system - specifically the player development system. But, really, if players want to be successful in FOF MP, they try to figure out what settings give them the maximum chance of success from the game engine. Trying to figure out what information points out good players at draft time is the same thing - you are trying to figure out how that system works to maximize your return. It is the nature of computer gaming - you try to find out what inputs you need to give the software in order to get it to give you the results you want.

[sovereignstar]

Gary, do you have a moment?

You've gone from backup to starter to backup and now back to starter. Has it been difficult to develop any sort of consistency having to bounce back and forth between roles?

[Subby]

I wouldn't agree with that statement at all. There's a few guys who may go over the top with researching the game, but I don't think it's the norm. No more than any other league.
If anything, I see IHOF as an anti-exploit league. See: Backloading, Chubby Shows Us How to Cheat At.

That set the tenor for a lot of owner interactions in that league...

[VPI97]

If anything, I see IHOF as an anti-exploit league. See: Backloading, Chubby Shows Us How to Cheat At.

That set the tenor for a lot of owner interactions in that league...
I've got them all so trained that they ask me for permission before going to the bathroom.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_dance.gif

[Aylmar]

It's true....it's true. I play my starters in the preseason (with playing time set to 1). I don't do it because I think it makes a difference in the regular season, I do it because of immersion. I don't care if anyone else does, or if it's stupid to do that because it risks injuring my studs. It makes the experience more real, at least for me, and so therefore I will continue...

In my second season in the CFL, my stud QB went down in the second preseason game with a season-ending injury (Achilles tear, I think). A few people questioned why he was playing at all...I mean, he had super ratings. But his actual QB rating was hovering just over 70 in two seasons of work. The real question there is, why wouldn't that guy be playing in the preseason? Does Carr get this preseason off because of his supposed potential? Anyway, that's a different topic (and one that has been hashed to death). Carry on...

[yabanci]

So what about if you want those extra points of development for a RB?

sorry, but I don't see throwing "as deep as possible on every single play" in the preseason to artificially inflate player ratings as a groundbreaking strategical innovation in the FOF world. I see it as petty gimmick. /shrug

the best post in this thread:

...MP leagues should act as the NFL would, and adopt an "I don't like what I see, please stop it" policy for this type of behavior...

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Raven, I understand your frustration somewhat, but why not play your starters at playing time of 2 instead of 4, e.g. when playing SD in the preseason. That should counteract the number of plays somewhat.

I used to be with you in playing starters in preseason in terms of an imaginary rust factor issue. Even though Jim sat his starters in preseason, I thought perhaps he just valued injury avoidance over rust avoidance. Now with this thread, it is clear there is no rust factor in the current version of FOF. For me then, it is time to stop playing starters as much as I can in preseason. Of course last season in USFL when I could only fit 47 players on my roster (even in the preseason) that was very difficult.

I also try to value realism as much as possible in the game mechanics, but at some point you cannot force every player to value it the same. For instance, in the USFL, there used to be only one team airing it out (with the all pass gameplan) and setting all the passing records (Boston) and now this season there were at least 4 or 5 teams doing it (thankfully, none of those teams won or even made it to the championship game). Actually, so far the all-pass strategy has turned out to be only a regular season strategy since against the very good defenses and gameplans in postseason, it tends to fall apart. Back to my point however is that FOF is not the NFL. It is close but there are some peculiar differences -- with the preseason being one of them (although soon to get more realistic with the next FOF version).

Now, Jim, I ask again: PLEASE MAKE THE NEW FOF COMPATIBLE WITH CURRENT MP LEAGUES (even if some features will not transfer).

[TurfToe]

I agree with aylmar and that is why P-Dub is now trash. He blew up in the final pre-season game last year, PT set to 1, and now he is a shadow of his former self. Am I upset? Sure. Was it my fault? Nobeody else's. Does it happen in the NFL? Sure does, even to the point of star's blowing knees in non-contact situations.

What do you do about it? Play FOF like Neo from the Matrix and see it for the numbers it really is or sit back fat, dumb, and happy and pretend like you're a GM. Ignorance is bliss I say!

Or not. I'm kind of a dufus to begin with so that's my angle and I'm leaning towards it...

No really, Fonz is teh suck.:p

[Grammaticus]

Okay, I figured that I should post here, mostly because it was my panties that got in a bunch over at FOFC.

You wear panties?

[Raven Hawk]

You wear panties?

That's not normal?

[Yoda]

Realism of training camp? pre-season games? Go play Head Coach.

Is this method of improving players cheesy? Yeah.

Is there something wrong with it? No (but your point of view might be different)

Each person that plays the game, has their own reasons for playing. Some people just want competition, reguardless if they win or loose. Some play to win.

Just because you don't like what someone else is doing, doesn't make it wrong.

There are rules in each FoF league. These rules are there to make the league more fun for the players.

Expecting someone else to live up to your expectations as to what's right and wrong? Well.....you are going to live one disappionted life.

If someone is playing to win, they are going to do what they can to maximize their efforts. And there is nothing wrong with that.

If the various leagues have issue with this, then they can inact a rule against it.

[stevew]

Even if you set to pass every time, in some limited tests I ran, I still was getting around 60-90 running plays per season. 30 of which were likely QB scrambles. For some reason the AI still calls FB runs. Doubt they are screens also, as i turned that off.

[JonInMiddleGA]

At what point is FOF no longer a game but a competition to see who can better manipulate the software?

Samdari pretty much covered this answer already but to reiterate:
that's pretty much what it was from the day you bought it.

[Ben E Lou]

I like preseason because I do actually evaluate talent and have multiple spreadsheets setup to evaluate talent during the preseason. Players have played their way onto my team during the preseason and players have played themselves out of a job during preseason. Most notably is SE Bert Ford that walked into camp three seasons ago and actually ended up being my leading receiver in the 2009 CFL Bowl. If I didn't use the preseason to evaluate talent, he would have never made my team. I tend to bench my starters for Game 3 and Game 4, so I can look at more young talent.I understand your success story, but I think you just got lucky there. The sample size is simply not large enough in the preseason to adequately evaluate talent, given the varying levels of competition, starters coming out early, some teams inactivating all of their best players completely, etc.


Skydog - per your remark about me "having known better" than to play my veteran starters, once again I tell you to piss off. I'm sick of your elitist smugness. The Pride is going to kick your Beagle ass all over Honolulu in week 16. Additionally, if I've locked my playoff spot (or lack thereof) I may even use my "injure the opposition's" quarterback game plan that I've tested and found to achieve its purpose. It should be just in time for your playoff run. That wouldn't be poor sportsmanship, now would it? :rolleyes:Who cares? I have two franchise QB's. By then, I might even have a favorite, rather than the two-QB version of the Run 'N' Stunhttp://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/trademark.gif system y'all are about to see unleashed when the regular season starts. Bring it on, beeyatch.http://66.29.116.228/fof-ihof/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif (javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')) <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100"><tbody><tr align="center" valign="middle"><td>
(javascript:emoticon(':evil:'))</td> <td>
</td> <td>
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[Subby]

We should definitely also make a rule that teams have to play all their starters during pre-season because sitting them and avoiding injury is a totally unrealistic loophole cheat.

Right?

[cuervo72]

I've got them all so trained that they ask me for permission before going to the bathroom.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_dance.gif

Bah, I'll piss whenever and on whomever I want to.

[cuervo72]

Realism of training camp? pre-season games? Go play Head Coach

HARDCORE!!!

/wipes Cowher spittle off screen

[Vegas Vic]

Again, just a suggestion - but why not just turn injuries off? Then both sides can use their favorite strategies with little to no effect on the other team...

I've always been opposed to turning off injuries during the preseason, and I would be even more opposed to it if Jim adds in the "rust factor" in a future version.

Decisions should matter, and they should have consequences. If you choose to pay a lot of money to your top players and don't have any depth and/or a 60 player roster, then you're going to have to risk exposing some of your better players during preseason. If the "rust factor" is added, and you don't want your key players to get rusty, then you're going to have to give them some PT during preseason. If you do play them, there's a chance they could get injured. Your decisions will have consequences. IMO, that's much better than just turning the injuries off and giving everyone a free pass.

[Ben E Lou]

What I would want to do is test a gameplan to counteract this -- if SkyDog is playing pass happy and 100 percent look for the run, can you be effective by playing 100 percent look for the pass, blitz his ass off (maybe his QB going down the season will fix things) and then maybe run a ball-control pass offense -- lots of short passes designed to keep the clock running and hold the ball while minimizing his time of possession. Even designing a defense to stop his offense dead might be worthwhile, since then he's forced to determine whether gaining development on defense while losing development on offense would work. If you can force him into that decision, maybe he abandons it.1. The injury thing wouldn't work. I have five QB's on the roster for the preseason. #1 and #2 should never have to see the field.

2. You might be able to lower the total number of plays run a bit, but not by that much.

3. Designing a defense to stop the offense dead is not a problem at all. When you're lining up and throwing 40+ yard passes, the defense can start looking very familiar with that play as early as midway through the 1st quarter.

4. Raven Hawk's assertation that I sprung this on him is bunk. I did the same thing in the first week of the preseason. 43 passing plays, 4 running plays, and nobody said a word, other than someone commenting about it not working very well.

[Fonzie]

No really, Fonz is teh suck.:p

I cannot refute this assertion.

[Ben E Lou]

Bizarre turn of events in the CFL:

<table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr height="26"><td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25009#25009)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:19 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25009) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Taco</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">CFL Commissioner</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/161634232e12f0faf5.gif</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 03 Apr 2004</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 1910</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Durham Bulldogs</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">Here are my thoughts on the issue...

As Raven Hawk posted, the official object of the CFL according to our constitution is "To have fun (and win the CFL Bowl while doing so)." As I've discovered while serving as commissioner: everyone's definition of "fun" is different. For Raven Hawk, this event has reduced his "fun" for the understandable reasons he has stated. For SkyDog, this has increased his "fun" (I'm guessing because it can be fun to discover a new strategy and get "success" using it).

So.....since we can't please everyone, I think we need to do what's best for the league. I think if a considerable number of owners followed SkyDog's example then it would hurt the overall "fun" level of the league. Therefore, I am asking SkyDog (and everyone else as well), to not use such unrealistic gameplans during the preseason. I am aware that it is impossible to quantity what "unrealistic" means.

As usual, if the majority of owners disagree with my decision then we will go with the majority rule.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
http://www.thecfl.net/images/banners/bulldogsbanner.jpg</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=24) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=24) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=30096) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=SeifChristian&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) </td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25010#25010)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:30 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25010) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=25010) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">SkyDog</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/17207444aaaba6adf4.jpg</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 17 Mar 2006</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 111</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Hanahan, SC Owner of Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Taco wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Here are my thoughts on the issue...

As Raven Hawk posted, the official object of the CFL according to our constitution is "To have fun (and win the CFL Bowl while doing so)." As I've discovered while serving as commissioner: everyone's definition of "fun" is different. For Raven Hawk, this event has reduced his "fun" for the understandable reasons he has stated. For SkyDog, this has increased his "fun" (I'm guessing because it can be fun to discover a new strategy and get "success" using it).

So.....since we can't please everyone, I think we need to do what's best for the league. I think if a considerable number of owners followed SkyDog's example then it would hurt the overall "fun" level of the league. Therefore, I am asking SkyDog (and everyone else as well), to not use such unrealistic gameplans during the preseason. I am aware that it is impossible to quantity what "unrealistic" means.

As usual, if the majority of owners disagree with my decision then we will go with the majority rule.</td> </tr></tbody></table>This is crap. How do you define "unrealistic?" I've got a young QB. He needs to work on his passing. Is 10% enough running? 20%? 30%? If you say 20%, and I set my gameplan to run 20% of the time, but then my coach passes a little more and I don't make it, then do I get punished for that??? Come on, you've GOT to give SOME kind of guideline for this. Otherwise, you're just leaving me flying blind.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
The media don't understand the problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://www.benelou.com/) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=benelou&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_msnm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101)</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25011#25011)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:45 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25011) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Fonzie</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/62824233bf785e5ca.gif</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 03 Apr 2004</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 1331</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Tucson Toros</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>SkyDog wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Otherwise, you're just leaving me flying blind.</td> </tr></tbody></table>

I hope you stored a parachute on your Sopwith Camel.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ekeithburton/torosbanner.jpg
Ring of Fire Division Champions 2009</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=20) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=20) </td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25012#25012)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:50 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25012) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=25012) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">SkyDog</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/17207444aaaba6adf4.jpg</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 17 Mar 2006</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 111</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Hanahan, SC Owner of Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Fonzie wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>SkyDog wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Otherwise, you're just leaving me flying blind.</td> </tr></tbody></table>

I hope you stored a parachute on your Sopwith Camel.</td> </tr></tbody></table>http://thecfl.net/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, I want to improve my team as much as possible in my next two preseason games. Therefore, I want to run as many plays as possible in my next two preseason games, while staying within the rules. There either needs to be a defined rule about this, or anything goes.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
The media don't understand the problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://www.benelou.com/) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=benelou&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_msnm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101)</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25013#25013)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:01 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25013) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Doug5984</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">CFL Commissioner</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/1118642391d6faaa6a.gif</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 02 Apr 2004</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 858</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Tulsa Talons</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">I think one thing that has made this league great, and fun for me is the lack of "strict" rules. If we say 10%, 20%, 15% whatever- it just gives people a number they can use- I like Taco's decision to simply use the rule of "unrealistic" and to judge this rule I think we have just done so. If something seems unrealistic there is a discussion and if the majority find it unrealistic, we will go with that...

that is just my 2 cents.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
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Talons = playoffs!!!
Butch Fulton- What a shame...
Marvin Raffo- He's the man!</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=8) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_email.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=email&u=8) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=Doug5984&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_yim.gif (http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=doug5984&.src=pg) </td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25014#25014)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:03 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25014) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=25014) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">SkyDog</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/17207444aaaba6adf4.jpg</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 17 Mar 2006</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 111</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Hanahan, SC Owner of Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Doug5984 wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I think one thing that has made this league great, and fun for me is the lack of "strict" rules. If we say 10%, 20%, 15% whatever- it just gives people a number they can use- I like Taco's decision to simply use the rule of "unrealistic" and to judge this rule I think we have just done so. If something seems unrealistic there is a discussion and if the majority find it unrealistic, we will go with that...

that is just my 2 cents.</td> </tr></tbody></table>So then, you have an owner saying, "I want to abide by the rules." Instead of making the rules clear, you are saying, "No, you have to GUESS what the rule is. If you guess wrong, you get punished."

You can NOT be serious.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
The media don't understand the problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://www.benelou.com/) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=benelou&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_msnm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101)</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25015#25015)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:17 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25015) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joe</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://www.joenitedstatesofamerica.com/dragons/dragonshelmet.gif</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 03 Apr 2004</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 926</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Sacramento Dragons</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">I am very against limiting what people can do with their gameplans, whether those limits are implictly or explicitly listed.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
http://thecfl.net/images/banners/dragonsbanner.jpg
Dallas Dragons: Coming to a CFL near you in 2014

San Andreas Division Champions: 2008, 2009, 2010</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=19) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://www.joenitedstatesofamerica.com/) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=mnvkngs11&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_msnm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19)</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr height="26"> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25018#25018)Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:44 pm</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25018) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=25018) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_delete.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=delete&p=25018&sid=120c7b254dc3c81b5d7b5397e4f76735) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">SkyDog</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/17207444aaaba6adf4.jpg</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 17 Mar 2006</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 111</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Hanahan, SC Owner of Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Joe wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I am very against limiting what people can do with their gameplans, whether those limits are implictly or explicitly listed.</td> </tr></tbody></table>Well, I am very against it, too. However, I'm willing to abide by the rules, if Taco will give me a rule to abide by. I'm going to bed soon, but will get up at 5:30am, in time to create a new export. However, I need SOME kind of guidline besides, "Guess what the limit is" before I can do that.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
The media don't understand the problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!</td> </tr> <!-- right bottom row end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" height="28" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="120">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_profile.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_pm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=101) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_www.gif (http://www.benelou.com/) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_aim.gif (aim:goim?screenname=benelou&message=Hello+Are+you+there?) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/icon_msnm.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101)</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"><!-- if ( navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf('mozilla') != -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('5.') == -1 && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('6.') == -1 ) document.write(' '); else document.write('


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Seriously, what in the WORLD am I supposed to do now??? I've posted publicly, and also PMed the commish asking for clarification. I guess he has already gone to bed. The next sim is at 6am. I want to do everything I can to maximize my players' development, but remain within the rules. This "ruling" gives me no clue what "the rules" are, though. Thoughts??? :confused:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seriously, what in the WORLD am I supposed to do now???


My suggestion would be to find a league that isn't commished by somebody who is influencing by candyassed whining.

In the more short-term, if it's pre-season, set everything to 50-50 & just forget about it. Any league being run that way ain't worth investing 10 seconds of worry about anyhow IMO.

[Celeval]

Seriously, what in the WORLD am I supposed to do now??? I've posted publicly, and also PMed the commish asking for clarification. I guess he has already gone to bed. The next sim is at 6am. I want to do everything I can to maximize my players' development, but remain within the rules. This "ruling" gives me no clue what "the rules" are, though. Thoughts??? :confused:

Recommend.

[duckman]

Thoughts??? :confused:

Cowboy up?

[Buccaneer]

SD, do whatever is best for your team. Most everyone else sounds like a bunch of whiny Frenchies.

[yabanci]

Thoughts??? :confused:

rename your team the "Drama Queens"?

[Raven Hawk]

My suggestion would be to find a league that isn't commished by somebody who is influencing by candyassed whining.

Nor one that is influenced by the Programmer/Developer's recommendations:

I'm not going into the details of how all this works in FOF, but given the injury risks and the peer pressure, I would suspect that MP leagues should act as the NFL would, and adopt an "I don't like what I see, please stop it" policy for this type of behavior. Because it would be fairly difficult, and include extremely little reward for the gamer, to create an economic disincentive and/or a nagging commissioner's role in the game.

:rolleyes:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nor one that is influenced by the Programmer/Developer's recommendations:

I don't think I'd want Jim to commish a league either, so I don't know that's exactly a ringing endorsement.

You whined, you got your way, at least have the dignity not to gloat about it.

[VPI97]

I understand Taco's intent, but I think that having a policy to police gameplans may just be setting the CFL up for a huge fiasco in the future. What happens when a team gets beat in the playoffs by a running back who gets 50 carries in the game? ...or if a playoff birth is decided by a quarterback who throws for the game winning touchdown on his 55th attempt? ...or any number of possibilities. If you think the guy on the losing end isn't going to complain, you may be right...the first time. Maybe even the second/third times...but eventually someone is going to reference that rule and demand something be done in a game that actually means something. It'll be a nightmare trying to fix that mess.

[Ben E Lou]

Update:

I scaled back my offense, and went with recommend on defense. We still managed to combine for 144 plays, 62 offensive, and 82 defensive, meaning that our offense stayed on the field for a normal number of plays, but our defensive plays increased by roughly 30%. Not optimal, but not bad. As expected, another team used this tactic this week. They threw deep MUCH more than we did, percentage-wise, but only managed 141 total plays.

More bizarre-ness, though, from right before the sim, and my response:

<table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="th" align="center" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr height="26"><td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:55 am</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=25029) http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif (http://thecfl.net/forum/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=25029) </td> </tr></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- main table start --> <tbody><tr> <td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="150"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- left row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" background="templates/Eos/images/post_bg.gif" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">SkyDog</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">
</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">http://thecfl.net/forum/images/avatars/17207444aaaba6adf4.jpg</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Joined: 17 Mar 2006</td></tr> <tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Posts: 121</td></tr> <tr><td>Location: Hanahan, SC Owner of Honolulu Bloodthirsty Beagles</td></tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>

</td> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_right.gif" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="templates/Eos/images/post_bottom.gif" height="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/spacer.gif</td> <td height="10" width="10">http://thecfl.net/forum/templates/Eos/images/post_corner.gif</td> </tr> <!-- left row table end --></tbody></table>

</td> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right top row table start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Taco wrote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">- Try to construct a gameplan that would be beneficial to real players in real life. For example, throwing deep on every play would not really help anyone get better. The distribution for the type of pass plays should not be so extreme.</td> </tr></tbody></table>If I'm under that constraint, then I'd expect the rest of the league to be, too. It's only fair. If we're trying to be "beneficial to real players in real life," then I'd suggest that to be fair, every team should have to play their starters at least SOME during each preseason game. After all, leaving them inactive for the entire preseason isn't in any way "beneficial to real players in real life."

<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr> <td>Quote:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">- You've got to mix in some run plays...I hate to throw out a percentage since this isn't a hard rule...but let's say 20%.

- There won't be a punishment for breaking these "rules" during today's preseason game.</td> </tr></tbody></table>So...no punishment, but it is a "rule." OK...

I guess I'll go with 20% in normal situations, but I intend to do what I do in a normal regular season gameplan when I'm behind and in longer yardage situations, and that is pass a good bit more than 80% of the time. Going to set my gameplan now, but I still find this very bizarre and unfair that I'm being asked to abide by a standard "beneficial to real players in real life") that the rest of the league will not have to abide by for this sim. I'm on IM right now. I'd like to chat a bit more before submitting this export if at all possible.</td> </tr> <!-- right top row table end --></tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom"><table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><!-- right bottom row start --> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">
_________________
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[Ben E Lou]

Nor one that is influenced by the Programmer/Developer's recommendations:



:rolleyes:That's all well and good, and I understand and appreciate Jim's comments, and agree that what he suggest is the most "realistic." That being said, it is impossible to fairly enforce such a rule in a league setting. You've got to have definitive lines drawn, and this one is waaaayyyyy too fuzzy.

[Toddzilla]

From the peanut gallery (as I have no skin in this game whatsoever):

Taking the lead from Jim's original comment - let's say this happened in the NFL, and the Colts decided to throw deep on every play. Forget the backlash from the fans and viewers, the opposing teams go to the league and say "Jeez, how are we supposed to get our practive reps in on defense when these lunatics are chucking the ball 60 yards down the field on every play?"

In this case, I imagine the commissioner would ask the Colts, "Please don't do that." They wouldn't say "Run the ball X times" or "You can only pass the ball X% of the time." The directive would be intentionally esoteric, and then it would again be up to the league to determine if the Colts were making a good faith effort to comply.

For the Colts to throw their arms up and cry "Well how much do we need to run the ball? What poercentage of passing plays is too much?" would be - in addition to immature and whiny - a disingenuous attempt to skew ther arguement.

I think "Hey Colts, knock it off." means just that, and any reasonably intelligent GM/coach knows what that means.

[Ben E Lou]

From the peanut gallery (as I have no skin in this game whatsoever):

Taking the lead from Jim's original comment - let's say this happened in the NFL, and the Colts decided to throw deep on every play. Forget the backlash from the fans and viewers, the opposing teams go to the league and say "Jeez, how are we supposed to get our practive reps in on defense when these lunatics are chucking the ball 60 yards down the field on every play?"

In this case, I imagine the commissioner would ask the Colts, "Please don't do that." They wouldn't say "Run the ball X times" or "You can only pass the ball X% of the time." The directive would be intentionally esoteric, and then it would again be up to the league to determine if the Colts were making a good faith effort to comply.

For the Colts to throw their arms up and cry "Well how much do we need to run the ball? What poercentage of passing plays is too much?" would be - in addition to immature and whiny - a disingenuous attempt to skew ther arguement.

I think "Hey Colts, knock it off." means just that, and any reasonably intelligent GM/coach knows what that means.You're comparing apples to oranges. The difference here is that there is a tangible benefit to throwing it deep down the field every play. You're right. Doing so in real life would be a stupid thing to do. There isn't a benefit in the NFL. There IS a benefit here, one I've tested and confirmed. If there existed an explainable benefit in the NFL, you and I both know that the Colts would be protesting the ruling, and at the very least asking for guidelines. I'm trying to maximize my development. The league is asking me not to maximize my development. It is therefore very reasonable, indeed, my DUTY as a responsible team owner, to do the best I can do for my team. That's why I'm asking for a defined limit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm trying to maximize my development. The league is asking me not to maximize my development.

And I'm surprised that you aren't more concerned about the latter statement.

Maybe your commish is a long-lost relative of NASCAR's France family (well known for making up sometimes vague rules to cover situations they hadn't anticipated/weren't controlling).

Just another example of why I'd rather go to the dentist (which I'm about to do) instead of play MP.

[Passacaglia]

I guess I look at this using the Prisoner's Dilemma. Would the league be fun if everyone threw deep passes every preseason play? No, it would be really lame -- coaches would get no ability to judge anything about their players, and all the development gains would balance out. I can't believe people actually want to see leagues be like this.

[cthomer5000]

I guess I look at this using the Prisoner's Dilemma. Would the league be fun if everyone threw deep passes every preseason play? No, it would be really lame -- coaches would get no ability to judge anything about their players, and all the development gains would balance out. I can't believe people actually want to see leagues be like this. Is the preseason fun now? Can it ever be? It's a waste of time in real life and in the game. I wouldn't enjoy it any more or less regardless of result.

[stevewed]

More plays makes sense. I don't see why anyone would think this is cracking the game or doing anything sneaky.

Also, if, when the lion roars a third time, if you press UP, UP, DOWN, DOWN, LEFT, LEFT, RIGHT, RIGHT, then all your players get big heads and unlimited ammo.

[Buccaneer]

Try to construct a gameplan that would be beneficial to real players in real life. For example, throwing deep on every play would not really help anyone get better. The distribution for the type of pass plays should not be so extreme.

Aww gee, don't some of you nerds realize that you are playing a game and not GM/coaching a real life team?? Where in the world would you think this is a role-playing game instead of a mathematical simulation?

By the way, didn't Oakland have a pass-all-the-time gameplan against the Broncos a few years back?

[KWhit]

I don't see this as any different than making your starters inactive for the whole preseason.

Realistic? No.
The best decision for a team? Yes.

The real issue here is that the preseason in FOF doesn't work like it does in the NFL, so you'll either have to make a butt-load of rules to try to turn the FOF preseason more like the NFL or you have to accept that it is flawed and allow GMs to do what they want.

[Subby]

I don't see this as any different than making your starters inactive for the whole preseason.

Realistic? No.
The best decision for a team? Yes.

The real issue here is that the preseason in FOF doesn't work like it does in the NFL, so you'll either have to make a butt-load of rules to try to turn the FOF preseason more like the NFL or you have to accept that it is flawed and allow GMs to do what they want.KWhizzle is right on, yo!

[BrianD]

Aww gee, don't some of you nerds realize that you are playing a game and not GM/coaching a real life team?? Where in the world would you think this is a role-playing game instead of a mathematical simulation?

By the way, didn't Oakland have a pass-all-the-time gameplan against the Broncos a few years back?

Isn't this the same board where everyone bitches that NFL Head Coach didn't give realistic stats, and bitches about Madden giving unrealistic stats? It would seem to me that people around here are generally looking for as close to an NFL simulation as they can find.

Having said that, it seems like most games have a few areas where you are forced to play in a certain way if you don't want everyone else to have an advantage. It is too bad those situations exist, but they probably weren't expected during development. Do what everyone else does, consider it a minor flaw in the game and move on. If it really bothers you that people gameplan to throw deep every play, blitz 11 men. You'll either knock the QB around a lot, or you'll constantly give up quick scores and make sure the other team's offense doesn't develop well.

[flere-imsaho]

My suggestion would be to find a league that isn't commished by somebody who is influencing by candyassed whining.

SD, do whatever is best for your team. Most everyone else sounds like a bunch of whiny Frenchies.

Oh, nice. :rolleyes:

Aww gee, don't some of you nerds realize that you are playing a game and not GM/coaching a real life team?? Where in the world would you think this is a role-playing game instead of a mathematical simulation?

Without intending to, you've actually made a pretty astute comment here. In my opinion, the majority of the GMs in the CFL are more interested in the "role-playing" aspect of an online MP FOF league than the mathematical simulation part, to be honest.

In this context, what SkyDog's done flies in the face of the overall league culture. To whit:

I understand Taco's intent, but I think that having a policy to police gameplans may just be setting the CFL up for a huge fiasco in the future. What happens when a team gets beat in the playoffs by a running back who gets 50 carries in the game? ...or if a playoff birth is decided by a quarterback who throws for the game winning touchdown on his 55th attempt? ...or any number of possibilities. If you think the guy on the losing end isn't going to complain, you may be right...the first time. Maybe even the second/third times...but eventually someone is going to reference that rule and demand something be done in a game that actually means something. It'll be a nightmare trying to fix that mess.

Without intending to, you're misrepresenting the situation. I don't believe there's anyone in the CFL who has a problem with a pass-happy or a run-happy offense. We've had the scenarios described above, and we've not had a problem with it.

But that's not what SkyDog is doing.

SkyDog is (was) using a gameplan that is not only pass-happy, but is long-pass happy. Not only this, but his defense is deliberately designed to maximize the chance that his defense will stay on the field as long as possible.

This is not simply a matter of someone changing every "Run %" on the gameplan screens to "0" and letting the team air it out. This is far above and beyond that. There is a gradation here, and I'm surprised some of you can't see the difference.

[stevewed]

If it really bothers you that people gameplan to throw deep every play, blitz 11 men. You'll either knock the QB around a lot, or you'll constantly give up quick scores and make sure the other team's offense doesn't develop well.

Ooooooooooo. Sneaky. I like this guy.

[VPI97]

This is not simply a matter of someone changing every "Run %" on the gameplan screens to "0" and letting the team air it out. This is far above and beyond that. There is a gradation here, and I'm surprised some of you can't see the difference.
Let me get this straight...you guys have no problem with someone who would use a 0% run gameplan in a regular season game, but that guy goes off his rocker when SD puts out a wacky gameplan in a meaningless pre-season game? That really seems weird to me.

[QuikSand]

Would the league be fun if everyone threw deep passes every preseason play?

Fascinating question. Maybe your response to this really determines the obvious big split on this whole matter.

To me, and I presume many others, the manner and content of preseason games contributes absolutely zero to the amount of fun I get from a league. I get the sense that others disagree, and that they place some sort of weight in what happens in those games, which i guess is fine.

But if there's a "never the twain shall meet" situation here - it's probably on this issue most of all.

[flere-imsaho]

Let me get this straight...you guys have no problem with someone who would use a 0% run gameplan in a regular season game, but that guy goes off his rocker when SD puts out a wacky gameplan in a meaningless pre-season game? That really seems weird to me.

They're not the same thing. Choosing to pass on every down is different from concocting an offensive and defensive gameplan that specifically seeks to keep one's defense on the field for the maximum amount of time possible.

One is a legitimate (though risky) offensive strategy. One is a potential method to take an advantage of the mechanics of FOF to develop one's defensive players as much as possible.

[flere-imsaho]

To me, and I presume many others, the manner and content of preseason games contributes absolutely zero to the amount of fun I get from a league. I get the sense that others disagree, and that they place some sort of weight in what happens in those games, which i guess is fine.

But if there's a "never the twain shall meet" situation here - it's probably on this issue most of all.

I couldn't have said this better.

[VPI97]

They're not the same thing. Choosing to pass on every down is different from concocting an offensive and defensive gameplan that specifically seeks to keep one's defense on the field for the maximum amount of time possible.

One is a legitimate (though risky) offensive strategy. One is a potential method to take an advantage of the mechanics of FOF to develop one's defensive players as much as possible.
Despite the fact that you're categorizing one as legit and one as a method to take advantage of the game, the only difference between the actual offensive gameplans is that SD needs to vary the length of his throws. If SD does that and mixes up his defense a little, he should be in compliance with what is an accepted strategy, correct?

Edit - Never mind...I would assume that the 'legit' 0% run strategy would now apparently be outlawed in the league due to Taco's post this morning on the CFL board.

[BrianD]

Edit - Never mind...I would assume that the 'legit' 0% run strategy would now apparently be outlawed in the league due to Taco's post this morning on the CFL board.

I think the argument being made was that people should gameplan for their opponent rather than just gameplanning for the maximum number of plays.

[VPI97]

I think the argument being made was that people should gameplan for their opponent rather than just gameplanning for the maximum number of plays.
I think SD should argue that that wouldn't be realistic for pre-season games. No NFL team gameplans for their opponents in the preseason...they gameplan to maximize the development of their players.

[Grammaticus]

If it really bothers you that people gameplan to throw deep every play, blitz 11 men. You'll either knock the QB around a lot, or you'll constantly give up quick scores and make sure the other team's offense doesn't develop well.
Yes, that is what people should be doing, trying to figure out how to screw up the strategy.

[gottimd]

Why not just both teams gameplan to punt on first down, have a tie, no one gets developed besides the punters and we'll call it a day, ok?

This thread is starting to smell like diarrhea.

[cuervo72]

Heck, I didn't think gameplanning for the opponent was a requirement anyway. I don't think *everyone* goes through and completely reconstructs their gameplan based on who they're playing...

[BrianD]

Heck, I didn't think gameplanning for the opponent was a requirement anyway. I don't think *everyone* goes through and completely reconstructs their gameplan based on who they're playing...

It always surprises me in a thread like this how many people intentionally try to misunderstand comments made by others so they can attack specific words rather than try to understand ideas being presented. Do you really think your statements address anything I said? Did I comment anywhere that *everyone* completely reconstructs their gameplan based on the opponent? People set gameplans to exploit weaknesses in their opponents or they set gameplans to highlight their own strengths. People may use one gameplan all season believing that their strenghts are better that those of others and they don't need specific gameplans.

I don't have a horse in this race since I don't play MP FOF, I was just trying to get people to understand how much they aren't listening to each other. I should know better than try to mediate for people that arean't really looking to find a solution.

[BrianD]

I think SD should argue that that wouldn't be realistic for pre-season games. No NFL team gameplans for their opponents in the preseason...they gameplan to maximize the development of their players.

I disagree that they gameplan to maximize the development of their players. The gameplans are more general since they never know who will be on the field, but they still generally gameplan for different situations and get experience for different players to see how they perform in the situations. They still play real football with real strategies, they just don't always play their best players.

Again, I don't really care about the MP outcome of this discussion, it just seems like it would be helpful for people to try to understand why the arguments are being made and not just run straight to the "How will I know how to legally gameplan in the regular season?" argument since that completely misses the point.

[Raven Hawk]

Let me get this straight...you guys have no problem with someone who would use a 0% run gameplan in a regular season game, but that guy goes off his rocker when SD puts out a wacky gameplan in a meaningless pre-season game? That really seems weird to me.

Just one comment on this. The difference here is that there is a punishment for doing this in the regular season - your team loses and it counts. If this type of game planning was employed during the regular season by a team that was 0-14 (where a loss really is a reward to a higher draft pick rather than a punishment), just so that they could develop their players, it would be considered "throwing the game," which many, if not most, leagues don't allow.

[TurfToe]

As a CFL owner, I'm bothered by the drama generated by this situation more than the situation itself.

SkyDog seems concerned with rules, punishments, rules without punishments, and the like. The CFL already has a vague, catch-all rule that wraps itself around sportsmanship. Some have called this gameplanning method unethical and in poor form (reads: integrity) and that is their right to do so.

While the sportsmanship rule is vague, sportsmanship in this specific context appears to be subjective at best. I saw the gameplan as working the system and thought it was very un-CFL. However, my litmus test is usually: does it break a specific CFL rule and does the game allow you to do it? The result to my litmus test is, no it does not break a rule and yes the game allows you to do it. So, objectively, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what SD did. Period. End of discussion. However, (I love 'howevers') the subjectivity involved with this is that some people think it is just uncool. I also see why they think it is uncool, but it's just not illegal. A rule to curb this behavior is not only an impossibility but the thought is utterly rediculous.

I must now go back to what has been suggested a few times and that is that the league has asked SD to "knock it off". So SD, knock it off. I believe if similar results were achieved with a slightly less extreme game plan, the issue would not have come up. Also, if SD didn't feel the need to gloat about what he did or why he did it, many would have thought him weird (what Honolulu owner isn't?) and nothing more. Instead, SD felt the need to respond to comments being made in the forum and that's what started the whole mess. Note to everyone, if you're doing something that helps your team and others make comments, simply ignore them and go about your business.

The CFL is obviously different from other MP leagues. We tend to do things different and play the game for different reasons. It comes up all the time how the CFL does X but the IHOF does Y. I still don't get the point of these discussions. I also don't get the point of dragging the overplayed drama from the CFL to the FOFC. Does it matter how many non-CFL owners agree with SkyDog when it comes to CFL drama? No, it doesn't. So let's drop this already and move on with our lives. I don't see common ground anywhere on this topic (there's two sides and the grey area is non-existent) nor do I see any rule changes in the CFL's future. No rule was broken and no rule should be enacted, it's simply a matter of culture. But like I always say, fuck 'em and do what you want.

SD, out of curiosity, what's the net gain from this gameplan method? I'm assuming you have numbers since it has been tested and proven. Please tell me it's more than a couple points as I will truly laugh myself into a shitting-in-my-pants coniption fit if the time and webspace wasted on this topic isn't justified by like 10-20 points across the team.

[Samdari]

We should definitely also make a rule that teams have to play all their starters during pre-season because sitting them and avoiding injury is a totally unrealistic loophole cheat.

Right?

I find this the most amusing aspect of this whole discussion. Not risking star players to injury in preseason is, IMO, a much bigger benefit than the relatively small development from the relatively small number of extra plays gained by extreme game plans, as well as a bigger distortion of NFL-like reality. Yet there seems to be no movement to force owners to play their best players in preseason.

[Raven Hawk]

And I do appreciate another revelation that I have had provided by both Flere and Bucc. That is that there are two different kinds of players that play this game:

1. People who are "role-playing" a GM position
2. People who are playing a text sim game

I would categorize myself as the first and probably categorize Skydog as the second. I think that there is a rift between intentions and that this is what is causing the problem. We both see the game in a different light and for a different purpose.

[Samdari]

I guess I look at this using the Prisoner's Dilemma. Would the league be fun if everyone threw deep passes every preseason play? No, it would be really lame -- coaches would get no ability to judge anything about their players, and all the development gains would balance out. I can't believe people actually want to see leagues be like this.

I think you could not possibly reduce the fun factor in FOF's preseason. I am stunned to hear that anyone gets anything out of it at all. I think you'll find those people are in a small minority.

Besides, I think it gives you a chance to evaluate pass rushers.

[cuervo72]

Maybe the CFL just isn't the league for SkyDog.

[BrianD]

Maybe the CFL just isn't the league for SkyDog.

There does seem to be a culture mis-match. Of course now that this has gotten so much publicity, I'd bet that other owners will slowly start shifting toward this strategy.

[TurfToe]

There does seem to be a culture mis-match. Of course now that this has gotten so much publicity, I'd bet that other owners will slowly start shifting toward this strategy.

The #2's might but I doubt the #1's will. But I think the answer lies in what the net gain is. If it's a handful of points, I don't think many will shift.

There's definitely a culture mis-match and the two sides just need to agree to disagree.

[Ben E Lou]

As a CFL owner, I'm bothered by the drama generated by this situation more than the situation itself.

SkyDog seems concerned with rules, punishments, rules without punishments, and the like. The CFL already has a vague, catch-all rule that wraps itself around sportsmanship. Some have called this gameplanning method unethical and in poor form (reads: integrity) and that is their right to do so.

While the sportsmanship rule is vague, sportsmanship in this specific context appears to be subjective at best. I saw the gameplan as working the system and thought it was very un-CFL. However, my litmus test is usually: does it break a specific CFL rule and does the game allow you to do it? The result to my litmus test is, no it does not break a rule and yes the game allows you to do it. So, objectively, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what SD did. Period. End of discussion. However, (I love 'howevers') the subjectivity involved with this is that some people think it is just uncool. I also see why they think it is uncool, but it's just not illegal. A rule to curb this behavior is not only an impossibility but the thought is utterly rediculous.

I must now go back to what has been suggested a few times and that is that the league has asked SD to "knock it off". So SD, knock it off. I believe if similar results were achieved with a slightly less extreme game plan, the issue would not have come up. Also, if SD didn't feel the need to gloat about what he did or why he did it, many would have thought him weird (what Honolulu owner isn't?) and nothing more. Instead, SD felt the need to respond to comments being made in the forum and that's what started the whole mess. Note to everyone, if you're doing something that helps your team and others make comments, simply ignore them and go about your business.

The CFL is obviously different from other MP leagues. We tend to do things different and play the game for different reasons. It comes up all the time how the CFL does X but the IHOF does Y. I still don't get the point of these discussions. I also don't get the point of dragging the overplayed drama from the CFL to the FOFC. Does it matter how many non-CFL owners agree with SkyDog when it comes to CFL drama? No, it doesn't. So let's drop this already and move on with our lives. I don't see common ground anywhere on this topic (there's two sides and the grey area is non-existent) nor do I see any rule changes in the CFL's future. No rule was broken and no rule should be enacted, it's simply a matter of culture. But like I always say, fuck 'em and do what you want.

SD, out of curiosity, what's the net gain from this gameplan method? I'm assuming you have numbers since it has been tested and proven. Please tell me it's more than a couple points as I will truly laugh myself into a shitting-in-my-pants coniption fit if the time and webspace wasted on this topic isn't justified by like 10-20 points across the team.

TT: I didn't bring this here to "drag the overplayed drama from the CFL to the FOFC," nor to "gloat about what I did and why I did it." In fact, the reason I posted has very little directly to do with the CFL's response. VPI and flere have come very close to nailing my reasons for posting this hear.

I'll have to re-look at the net gains possible, as I ran some more tests last night that pushed total plays well over 200. (The biggest change was that goal-line offense on every play gets the defense looking very familiar with that play extremely early in the game.) My guess is that the net gain will be in the 10-20 points per team range, but I'll have to look again. I probably won't have time tonight, but probably will this weekend. If someone has the time and the inclination to run further tests before then, feel free to use and tweak the gameplan I've maximized plays with the best (when both teams use it). It is {here} (http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/preseasondevelopment.fgp). (Note: that gameplan won't work as well in a SP environment against an AI team, because it involves being ready for the pass on every single play. The AI will have great success running the ball, therefore taking up more time. It was designed for a test MP league with both teams using it.)

[TurfToe]

TT: I didn't bring this here to "drag the overplayed drama from the CFL to the FOFC," nor to "gloat about what I did and why I did it." In fact, the reason I posted has very little directly to do with the CFL's response. VPI and flere have come very close to nailing my reasons for posting this hear.


I just think that copying and pasting most of the thread was "dragging the drama". BTW, The Rounders will unveil our new passing play 'Dragging the Drama' this week in San Antonio. It involves a 3-TE set and 2 FB's in the backfield.

I really didn't understand what you were trying to accomplish until you felt the need to respond to comments. After other GM's were discussing their player's performance, you told them exactly what your game plan was set to in order to take the wind out of their sails. Then when GM's wondered in prose about why your settings were like that and what you were experimenting with, you felt it necesary to explain that it wasn't an experiment, it was tested, it was proven, and that you knew how to make the most out of the system. Ooopsies! That's where the can of worms was opened. Yes? Or did I post a revisionist version of what happened? I'd copy and paste the thread but that is teh sux0rs.

If the gain is significant, it would be hard to not employ the gameplan.

[Fonzie]

Maybe the CFL just isn't the league for SkyDog.

That SkyDog adopts a somewhat different approach than most CFL owners couldn't be more clear. It may be that this was a poor pairing.

[Grammaticus]

Whats up, is he kicking everyone's Azz in season?

[Pyser]

Personally, I think if this was anyone but Skydog, people would be yelling "cheater!" at the top of their lungs.

I think this is very clearly exploiting the game in a way that wasnt intended by its designer...and as such, should be labeled a bug (one which Jim seems to already be taking steps to correct....another red flag saying this shouldnt be done by anyone running a team in MP).

[Subby]

I like this TurfToe guy... :D

[TurfToe]

I like this TurfToe guy... :D

I don't like him, he is teh ghey.

Speaking of teh ghey, Fonzie suddenly appears to be immmune to my prodding.

Fonzie seems to have caught a case of Life. He is sorely missed and our feelings are hurt when our chiding falls on deaf ears. We will be vigilant and our resolve will remain strong.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h145/newb2000gt/ttiwwp.gif

Just say no to Toro.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h145/newb2000gt/lvs-avatar.jpg

[Celeval]

I don't think *everyone* goes through and completely reconstructs their gameplan based on who they're playing...

I prefer it this way. :)

[Fonzie]

I don't like him, he is teh ghey.

Speaking of teh ghey, Fonzie suddenly appears to be immmune to my prodding.

Fonzie seems to have caught a case of Life. He is sorely missed and our feelings are hurt when our chiding falls on deaf ears. We will be vigilant and our resolve will remain strong.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h145/newb2000gt/ttiwwp.gif

Just say no to Toro.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h145/newb2000gt/lvs-avatar.jpg

My apologies. I did put a little something for you into a recent CFL post, though.

But to tide you over until you get to read it, here's a little chiding back at you: TurfToe is a poopy head.

[Fonzie]

Speaking of teh ghey, Fonzie suddenly appears to be immmune to my prodding.

Fonzie seems to have caught a case of Life. He is sorely missed and our feelings are hurt when our chiding falls on deaf ears. We will be vigilant and our resolve will remain strong.

Dola-

Must you always complain to our friends when you think I'm neglecting our relationship? I wish you felt more secure - I mean, I think we've got a good thing going here.

Tell you what, though, you're right. I've been neglecting "us" lately. How about dinner and a movie to make up for it?

[Subby]

I can't believe you dragged the drama between you and Fonzie to this message board.

[TurfToe]

Whats up, is he kicking everyone's Azz in season?

Not necesarily, as even the lowly Rounders have managed to make it to the playoffs and lose. :)

I don't think it's a poor pairing as I seem to learn something quite often from SD. He's even managed to earn his way out of the lame nickname that I always assign to GM's. However, I think that when there's a significant difference in culture, it is best to respect those differences. SD's methods of making the most out of his team may not be a widely-accepted practice but you cannot deny him something that is not illegal. As I stated before, a low profile would have kept this from becoming anything at all.

Respect, subtleness, and flexibility go a long way towards keeping 31 other losers who need a life happy. When those qualities cease to work, fuck 'em. Bastards.

On that note...

Ping: Bastard (Fonzie, where are you?)

[duckman]

rename your team the "Drama Queens"?

Or the "Sandy Vaginas."

[TurfToe]

Dola-

Must you always complain to our friends when you think I'm neglecting our relationship? I wish you felt more secure - I mean, I think we've got a good thing going here.

Tell you what, though, you're right. I've been neglecting "us" lately. How about dinner and a movie to make up for it?

Like I tell my other bitches, if there's hand release in it for me we're all good.

[TurfToe]

I can't believe you dragged the drama between you and Fonzie to this message board.

No need in dragging it, it seems to follow Fonzie like the long lost syphiletic offspring of a Mongolian gang-banged French Labradoodle looking for a good scratch behind its mangy ears.

But really, there's not that much drama...is there?

[Daimyo]

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that SkyDog is whining about a lack of clearly posted rules? Wasn't that Hornsmaniac's big request for FOFC?

[Buccaneer]

I think SD should argue that that wouldn't be realistic for pre-season games. No NFL team gameplans for their opponents in the preseason...they gameplan to maximize the development of their players.

Without reading any further, this is a great comment. Think about it, this is all SD trying to do - people are getting hung up on the mechanics of how to do it. In the end, however one maximizes the development of their players in pre-season, that is a realism argument.

What I was alluding to earlier was nature of the game we are playing and the way one plays in it. There are many things in the game that are not "true to real life". Do you think that way we draft is like in real life? Or how about the way we negotiate a contract? Or the type of contracts we can give? Think about gameplanning? Is that how it's done in real life? No, it is primarily head-to-head playcalling. Look at Training Camp, is that like in real life?

The point is that it is not the fault of the developer or the user but simply the nature of a sitting down on a PC and running a compiled computer program. If you are willing to accept compromises in many aspects of the game, why be hypocritical on one small, insignificant phase when in actuality, the end results are probably more realistic that the alternative.

The quip about "role-playing" was intended. We see that in IHOF, as well as seeing just about every other kind of owner (and what constitutes "fun").

[Taco]

Today I'm thankful that FOFC is blocked from my work.

My concern is that 3/4 of our owners will start using SkyDog's gameplan and it will hurt the league. SkyDog used this gameplan to exploit a flaw in the AI. That feels wrong to me.

Yes, it is impossible to create a set of rules that specify what a legal gameplan is. And I'm not going to even try to do that.

It's my job as commissioner to do what I think is best for the CFL. Some people may disagree, and it may not be the best decision for other leagues since we do have different cultures, and that's okay. But I really don't want to see a large percentage of our owners adopt a similar strategy during the preseason. I agree that the preseason is not the best part of the game, but I don't want to allow something that just makes it worse.

[yabanci]

Today I'm thankful that FOFC is blocked from my work.

My concern is that 3/4 of our owners will start using SkyDog's gameplan and it will hurt the league. SkyDog used this gameplan to exploit a flaw in the AI. That feels wrong to me.

Yes, it is impossible to create a set of rules that specify what a legal gameplan is. And I'm not going to even try to do that.

It's my job as commissioner to do what I think is best for the CFL. Some people may disagree, and it may not be the best decision for other leagues since we do have different cultures, and that's okay. But I really don't want to see a large percentage of our owners adopt a similar strategy during the preseason. I agree that the preseason is not the best part of the game, but I don't want to allow something that just makes it worse.

Good call. You made the right decision to protect your league from these ridiculous gimmicks.

[Ben E Lou]

SkyDog used this gameplan to exploit a flaw in the AI.For what seems like the hundredth time, no, I did not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But I really don't want to see a large percentage of our owners have to admit they got outsmarted by someone who understands the workings of the game better than they do.

Fixed that for you.

[Ben E Lou]

Stayed up later than I thought, so for those who asked...

Baseline development, four preseason games, injuries off, all teams set to use AI gameplans.

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height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Stanberry, Martin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">72</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">49 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">72 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">McGregor, Levon</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">29</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">47</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">29 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Milts, Riddick</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">46</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">19 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">46 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Robinson, J.C.</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">45</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">74</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">74 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Barker, Carl</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">30</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">19 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">30 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Davidson, Eddie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">27</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">48</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">28 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Howard, J.T.</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Olsavsky, Johnnie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">27</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">55</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">27 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">55 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 38.25pt;" height="51"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 38.25pt; width: 48pt;" height="51" width="64">Zimmerman, Dennis</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">13 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Cochrane, Herb</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">26</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">48</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">27 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Cooper, Jose</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">85</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">85 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lofton, Donovan</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">15</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Sherman, Rex</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">16</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Endsley, Marc</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">14</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">35</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">14 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">35 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="page-break-before: always; height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Francis, Edgar</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">94</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">52 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">94 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Arbuckley, Dustin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">12</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">12 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Dawson, Andre</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">81</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">81 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Price, Desmond</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">29</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">13 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">29 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Vosicky, Shane</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">44</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">78</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">78 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bridges, Darnell</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">33</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">82</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (4)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">82 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">4</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Ozols, Ernie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">22</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Rhodes, Darrin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">7</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">26</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">7 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">26 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Schalk, Andy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">K</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">70</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">90</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">72 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">90 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Rodriguez, Lenny</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">P</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">67</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">67</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">67 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">67 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Givens, Clyde</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">16</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">46</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">46 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lasica, Lance</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Traylor, Glenn</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">33</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">72</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">35 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">72 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Kemp, Marty</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">52</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">39 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">52 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Davis, Billy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Joe</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Giove, Lincoln</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">10</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">10 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bailey, Jamie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">NT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">21</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">47</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">21 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Regalado, Henry</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">17</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">17 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Ridley, Burt</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">51</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">51 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bradford, Bernie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">41</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">78</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">44 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">78 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Escamilla, Deron</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">19 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bruce, Kenyon</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WILB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">10</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">10 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Delgado, Tito</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">MLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">15</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Hampton, Alvin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">MLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">57</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">46 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">57 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Fogg, Billy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Joe</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">37</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">73</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">39 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">73 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Sunderland, Nate</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Tanner, Derek</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">17</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">42</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">17 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">42 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Drake, Quinn</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">19 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">49 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Flynn, Wade</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">12</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">12 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">39 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Johannsen, Nick</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">8</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">8 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Melnik, Darryl</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">70</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">39 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">70 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Kus, Timothy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">28</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">59</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">30 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">59 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Withrow, Corwin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Miller, Tyrell</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">22</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Raag, Josh</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">41</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">73</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">73 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Caldwell, Wayne</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">11</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">11 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lyon, Benjamin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">65</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">42 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">65 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

total current change: 54 points.


Here's the development over 4 games using the extreme gameplan above.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 432pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="576"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="9" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 38.25pt;" height="51"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 38.25pt; width: 48pt;" height="51" width="64">Name</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Pos</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Team</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">testtuckera Current</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">testtuckera Future</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">testtuckerb Current</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">testtuckerb Future</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Overall Current Change</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Overall Future Change</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Andersen, Norbert</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">QB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">11</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">37</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">11 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Carman, Albert</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">QB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">41</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">13 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">41 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Hurtado, Leroy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">QB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">29</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">66</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (5)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">66 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">5</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Southrey, Jeff</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">QB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">32</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">67</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">33 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">67 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Armagost, Ike</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">12</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">12 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Brentley, Ted</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Rodgers, Jim</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">48</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">49 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Tribble, J.J.</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">15</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">25</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">25 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Krause, Cary</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">40</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">55</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">55 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Stanberry, Martin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">72</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">51 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">72 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">McGregor, Levon</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">29</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">47</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Milts, Riddick</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">46</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">21 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">46 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Robinson, J.C.</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">TE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">45</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">74</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">50 (5)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">74 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">5</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Barker, Carl</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">30</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">19 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">30 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Davidson, Eddie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">27</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">48</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">27 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Howard, J.T.</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Olsavsky, Johnnie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">27</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">55</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">27 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">55 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 38.25pt;" height="51"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 38.25pt; width: 48pt;" height="51" width="64">Zimmerman, Dennis</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FL</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">13 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Cochrane, Herb</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">26</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">48</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">27 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">48 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Cooper, Jose</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">85</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">33 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">85 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lofton, Donovan</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">15</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Sherman, Rex</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">C</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">16</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Endsley, Marc</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">14</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">35</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">35 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Francis, Edgar</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">94</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">55 (6)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">94 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">6</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Arbuckley, Dustin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">12</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">12 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Dawson, Andre</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RG</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">81</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (4)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">81 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">4</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Price, Desmond</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">29</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">13 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">29 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Vosicky, Shane</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">44</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">78</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">78 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bridges, Darnell</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">33</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">82</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (4)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">82 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">4</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Ozols, Ernie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">22</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">24 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Rhodes, Darrin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">7</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">26</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">7 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">26 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Schalk, Andy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">K</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">70</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">90</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">75 (5)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">90 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">5</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Rodriguez, Lenny</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">P</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">67</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">67</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">67 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">67 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Givens, Clyde</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">16</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">46</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">46 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lasica, Lance</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Traylor, Glenn</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">33</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">72</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">33 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">72 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Kemp, Marty</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">52</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">52 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Davis, Billy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Joe</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Giove, Lincoln</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">10</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">10 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bailey, Jamie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">NT</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">21</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">47</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">22 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">47 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Regalado, Henry</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">17</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">17 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Ridley, Burt</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RDE</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">51</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">51 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bradford, Bernie</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">41</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">78</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">42 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">78 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Escamilla, Deron</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">19</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">20 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Bruce, Kenyon</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WILB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">10</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">10 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Delgado, Tito</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">MLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">15</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">16 (1)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">1</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Hampton, Alvin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">MLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">57</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">45 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">57 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Fogg, Billy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Joe</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">37</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">73</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">37 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">73 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Sunderland, Nate</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">34</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">18 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">34 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Tanner, Derek</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">WLB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">17</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">42</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">17 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">42 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Drake, Quinn</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">18</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">49</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">21 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">49 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Flynn, Wade</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">12</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">12 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">39 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Johannsen, Nick</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">8</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">23</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">8 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">23 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Melnik, Darryl</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">LCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">36</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">70</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">40 (4)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">70 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">4</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Kus, Timothy</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">28</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">59</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">59 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Withrow, Corwin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">RCB</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">13</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">38</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">15 (2)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">38 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">2</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Miller, Tyrell</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">22</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">43</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">22 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">43 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Raag, Josh</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">SS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">41</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">73</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">44 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">73 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Caldwell, Wayne</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">11</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">31</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">11 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">31 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 25.5pt;" height="34"> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; height: 25.5pt; width: 48pt;" height="34" width="64">Lyon, Benjamin</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">FS</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">Tucker</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">39</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">65</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">42 (3)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" width="64">65 (0)</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">3</td> <td class="xl22" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none; width: 48pt;" x:num="" align="right" width="64">0</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Total development: 78 points

[VPI97]

SkyDog used this gameplan to exploit a flaw in the AI.
What flaw?

Edit - I'm serious. I've seen multiple people in this thread and on CFL that say this is either exploiting a "flaw" or a bug in the game. I've read the threads twice and have yet to see anyone explain that claim. If it's a bug, I wouldn't allow it in my leagues...but there's nothing that points to it being anything other than gameplanning for development.

[Ben E Lou]

Changes of note:

QB Hurtado gained 1 point normal, 5 points extreme.
FB Krause gained 0 points normal, 3 points extreme.
Backup FB's and TE's gained 0 points normal, 2 points extreme.
FL Davidson gained 1 point normal, 0 points extreme. :confused:
LG Frances gained 3 points normal, 6 points extreme.
K Schalk gained 2 points normal, 5 points extreme. :confused:
Overall, the difference in development between using default gameplans and extreme gameplns was 44%. This matches up pretty closely with the increase in number of plays.

[Joe]

What flaw?

Edit - I'm serious. I've seen multiple people in this thread and on CFL that say this is either exploiting a "flaw" or a bug in the game. I've read the threads twice and have yet to see anyone explain that claim. If it's a bug, I wouldn't allow it in my leagues...but there's nothing that points to it being anything other than gameplanning for development.

complainers just call it a flaw when something doesn't go their way. like when everyone screams bug when someone signs a good player to a 1-year contract.

[sovereignstar]

Don't you mean the Bloodthirsty Bengals?

I finally got this one. Way to go, dummy.

[Ben E Lou]

Overall, the difference in development between using default gameplans and extreme gameplns {sic} was 44%. This matches up pretty closely with the increase in number of plays.I got in bed last night after posting this, and realized there was at least one flaw in putting a percentage gain out there, but didn't feel like getting back up just to post it. :p Saying "44% more development is possible" is actually understating the significance, simply because not every player HAD the opportunity to develop, as in these test runs I didn't mess with the depth charts to put the guys with development opportunities at the top of the list with max playing time. For example, RB Jim Rodgers (48/49) was set at "6" playing time for both, and gained zero points in both cases. He has no points that he CAN gain, it would appear, no matter how much playing time he gets in any situation.



K Schalk gained 2 points normal, 5 points extreme. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/confused.gifThis one still has me puzzled, as total number of PUNTS of course skyrocketed (39 per game average), but the total number of kicks was certainly lower than average, considering the team averaged only 14.5 ppg. My best guess is that P/K development is based on total kicks (or maybe even total plays), and not broken out. Of course, the punter gained nothing in these runs because he was fully developed.

What's also odd is that while QB, FB, TE and OL roughly doubled their development, the WR's went from 2 total points to 1 total point. It could be that this particular set of WR's are all busts who wouldn't have gained much anyway, that WR development is based on something else, or a few other things. Note that in this run, the offensive players realized bigger gains than the defense, despite being on the field for roughly the same number of plays. That is probably explained by the o-coordinator being "Excellent" in young talent, while the d-coordinator is only "Fair."

Oh, in the "extended" preseason, there were 213.5 plays per game. I didn't save the box scores for the normative preseason, but I did glance at each one. There were no overtime games, and all of them were in the 120-130 range, making me quite comfortable that my team's 125.4 average in IHOF last season is an acceptable baseline for this, so it is possible to run roughly 70% more plays in the preseason this way.

[Taco]

What flaw?

Edit - I'm serious. I've seen multiple people in this thread and on CFL that say this is either exploiting a "flaw" or a bug in the game. I've read the threads twice and have yet to see anyone explain that claim. If it's a bug, I wouldn't allow it in my leagues...but there's nothing that points to it being anything other than gameplanning for development.

The flaw is that SkyDog couldn't force overtime in any of his preseason games and get an extra quarter of development for his players. No wait, that's not what I meant to say...

The flaw is that running plays that would not help real players develop faster in real life helps them develop faster in the game. It's an imperfect simulation, and this is one way to take advantage of that.

Yes, there are other unrealistic tactics that we allow such as sitting your starters throughout the entire preseason. I am okay with exploiting that "flaw" because it doesn't hurt the league. No one likes to see starters get injured in the preseason and therefore the "fun" level stays up. But some of us don't like to see a team get blown out 100-7 in two weeks of preseason and benefit from it.

[Ben E Lou]

But some of us don't like to see a team get blown out 100-7 in two weeks of preseason and benefit from it.1. An argument COULD be made, based on Jim's post in this thread, that this tactic provides more realistic development for young players.

2. FWIW, the scores of the latest tests posted in the last few games were much more reasonable:

W, 30-14
L, 6-13
L, 9-21
L, 13-25

[Ben E Lou]

The flaw is that SkyDog couldn't force overtime in any of his preseason games and get an extra quarter of development for his players.:D

Yes, I did hope that throwing deep out of the goal line offense against 4-deep zones on both sides of the ball would force a 0-0 tie and push the game to five full quarters. Unfortunately, no matter how familiar the defense is with that play, sometimes it still works.

[cuervo72]

Note that in this run, the offensive players realized bigger gains than the defense, despite being on the field for roughly the same number of plays. That is probably explained by the o-coordinator being "Excellent" in young talent, while the d-coordinator is only "Fair."

Which also indicates that for certain teams with great coaches, you get even more of a boost. Imagine if you were Ex in both coordinators?

Also, one thing I've never been sure about is the coordinators' positional skills. Is this additive (like possibly with scouts), where in years 1-3 a coordinator will improve based on YT and the position, or is it that from 1-3 only the YT has a bearing on development, but then from 4+ it is handled by the position rating?

[Daimyo]

What flaw?

Edit - I'm serious. I've seen multiple people in this thread and on CFL that say this is either exploiting a "flaw" or a bug in the game. I've read the threads twice and have yet to see anyone explain that claim. If it's a bug, I wouldn't allow it in my leagues...but there's nothing that points to it being anything other than gameplanning for development.

I would argue that the flaw is that the game bases development on the number of plays a player spends on the field and not the players involvement in the play or success of the play. In this situation you can pass 80 times only completing 10 of them and instead of ruining your QB's confidence he'll actually develop more than if he had run a conventional gameplan successfully. The same goes for all the other positions... your OL who never runblocked will improve their run blocking... your RB who carried 4 times will improve his rushing skills, etc, etc.

If its not a flaw it is at the very least a poor design decision (although perhaps justifiable as a tradeoff between complexity vs features). I assume Jim made this design decision under the assumption that no one would explot the flaw by running such extreme passing gameplans in the preseason.

Having said all that i still fall into the camp that says its better to just let this happen then try to come up with rules to stop it. I also don't think SkyDog or anyone else should feel guilty about using it.

[Eaglesfan27]

1. An argument COULD be made, based on Jim's post in this thread, that this tactic provides more realistic development for young players.

Could you elucidate that argument? To me, this appears a cheap tactic that takes advantage of a flawed development system in the game.

[Solecismic]

From what I've read about NFL player development, I'd disagree with that assessment. It's all about repetitions. NFL coaches might do exactly this, and develop their players a little faster, if they felt the league and their fans would allow it.

If you want to be a successful quarterback, you learn to shrug off bad results. You need to be mature enough to understand that if your coach tells you to throw 60 long balls even when the defense is cheating from the second the ball is snapped, you might be doing a fine job to complete only 6 of them.

I'm astonished this issue has had legs at all. It really can and should be handled by a commissioner saying "don't do that." Just like a commissioner should handle tanking or collusive trading.

[Ben E Lou]

Could you elucidate that argument? To me, this appears a cheap tactic that takes advantage of a flawed development system in the game.Oh, it's just that he commented that development is a little too slow. This speeds it up. No biggie.

[Flasch186]

yup this could have pretty substantial long term effects for an MP league. A team using this could become a warehouse of good players, or developed ones, wherein he could then trade them around for picks, rinse repeat while creating a pseudo-dynasty (super bowls or not).

This has to be a "no go" in leagues, I think.

[cuervo72]

I'm astonished this issue has had legs at all. It really can and should be handled by a commissioner saying "don't do that." Just like a commissioner should handle tanking or collusive trading.

Yeah VPI, why aren't you onboard here? Developer says so.

[cthomer5000]

yup this could have pretty substantial long term effects for an MP league. A team using this could become a warehouse of good players, or developed ones, wherein he could then trade them around for picks, rinse repeat while creating a pseudo-dynasty (super bowls or not).

This has to be a "no go" in leagues, I think. I would say this is a pretty gross exaggeration.

[Daimyo]

From what I've read about NFL player development, I'd disagree with that assessment. It's all about repetitions. NFL coaches might do exactly this, and develop their players a little faster, if they felt the league and their fans would allow it.
If that were true wouldn't you think at least one coach in the history of the league would have had the balls to try it? These guys spend millions of dollars to find even the smallest edge and a lot of the owners have shown they don't really give a damn about the rest of the league. I have to think if it were as easy as passing 80 times in a preseason game one of them would have tried it and risked the repercussions.

Besides, if that's true why do coaches always talk about putting young players in positions where they can succeed? Why do so many teams handle their young players with kid gloves (McNair, Culpepper, etc) instead of starting them from day 1 to develop faster?

[Ben E Lou]

Yeah VPI, why aren't you onboard here? Developer says so.My best guess is that now that we know that more plays=more development, in IHOF in particular, people are going to push to the very edge of getting as many plays as they can while staying whatever rules he would try to draw up, and drawing said line would be extremely difficult. No, he won't allow deep passes on every play out of the goal line offense, but what about both teams using an all-out passing attack that leads to 150-170 plays per game?

[Flasch186]

I would say this is a pretty gross exaggeration.

I disagree and find that the longer one franchise uses this, it becomes exponentially more dramatic to the chasm between those using it and those not. If SD's team uses this over 10 seasons and gets players on the average that are 25-30 points better than the average across the rest of the league then that the team using it, would have a virtual warehouse full of good players that are only restricted to that team by Salary cap reasons. Therefore the offending team would be forced to continually run a revolving door of trading to get picks, basically turning the SkyDog Rovers into that warehouse of much better players.

[Ben E Lou]

I disagree and find that the longer one franchise uses this, it becomes exponentially more dramatic to the chasm between those using it and those not. If SD's team uses this over 10 seasons and gets players on the average that are 25-30 points better than the average across the rest of the league then that the team using it, would have a virtual warehouse full of good players that are only restricted to that team by Salary cap reasons. Therefore the offending team would be forced to continually run a revolving door of trading to get picks, basically turning the SkyDog Rovers into that warehouse of much better players.1. Do you seriously think Tucker or Honolulu would be the ONLY team in their respective leagues to do this, if it were legal?
2. Most players seem to have a caps on their development, no matter how much playing time they get.

[Flasch186]

1. Do you seriously think Tucker or Honolulu would be the ONLY team in their respective leagues to do this, if it were legal?
2. Most players seem to have a caps on their development, no matter how much playing time they get.

1. do you think ALL the teams would use it? or WANT to have to use it to stay competitive?

2. whew, thank god Jim built in this cap to keep people from exploiting the system.

[cuervo72]

My best guess is that now that we know that more plays=more development, in IHOF in particular, people are going to push to the very edge of getting as many plays as they can while staying whatever rules he would try to draw up, and drawing said line would be extremely difficult. No, he won't allow deep passes on every play out of the goal line offense, but what about both teams using an all-out passing attack that leads to 150-170 plays per game?

Yep. No reason not to take it to whatever limit. But, I think trying to institute/enforce any rule is more of a headache than the problem is (which seems to be where you are too, in which case the preseason is just rediculous and we should scrap it anyway).

[Solecismic]

If that were true wouldn't you think at least one coach in the history of the league would have had the balls to try it? These guys spend millions of dollars to find even the smallest edge and a lot of the owners have shown they don't really give a damn about the rest of the league. I have to think if it were as easy as passing 80 times in a preseason game one of them would have tried it and risked the repercussions.

Besides, if that's true why do coaches always talk about putting young players in positions where they can succeed? Why do so many teams handle their young players with kid gloves (McNair, Culpepper, etc) instead of starting them from day 1 to develop faster?

One thing the NFL has is an I instead of an AI. The NFL can react immediately to new situations.

If a coach started treating an exhibition game as a practice, there would be an immediate reaction. The fans would become angry, perhaps there'd even be a phone call from the commissioner by the end of the first quarter.

Coaches don't handle young quarterbacks with kid gloves, they handle the media with kid gloves. Coaches understand football. Most members of the media (apologies if any are present here) can barely figure out how to turn on a laptop computer. I know. I used to be a sportswriter.

Young quarterbacks are often brought on slowly because coaches need to win games. The best and most polished young quarterbacks (Mannings) are thrown in pretty much as soon as they know the offense.

When you play a sim, like FOF, you can simulate several seasons in a day. So there's naturally a lot of emphasis on long-term development. In the NFL, there's always pressure to have a good season. So some decisions are made (like benching your promising young quarterback) because your Mark Brunell-type veteran gives you a better chance of winning today.

To make the media happy (and that's important, because the media filters what you say for the consumption of your fan base), you use tried-and-true sports cliches. Keep it simple, and the media will smile and nod.

[tanglewood]

From what I've read about NFL player development, I'd disagree with that assessment. It's all about repetitions. NFL coaches might do exactly this, and develop their players a little faster, if they felt the league and their fans would allow it.

If you want to be a successful quarterback, you learn to shrug off bad results. You need to be mature enough to understand that if your coach tells you to throw 60 long balls even when the defense is cheating from the second the ball is snapped, you might be doing a fine job to complete only 6 of them.

I'm astonished this issue has had legs at all. It really can and should be handled by a commissioner saying "don't do that." Just like a commissioner should handle tanking or collusive trading.

I don't think this is correct at all. If it was all about repetition then why even bother to play preaseason games? It would just be taking time away from valuable reps on the practice field. Coaches blood their rookies in preseason games to get them the closest thing possible to real game experience. They want to see how a QB manages his team, makes the right reads, how the RB picks his holes, picks up the blitz, how the LBs read the offense and so on under pressure, as opposed to in the sterile enviroment of training camp. If you then turn that into a farcical exercise it loses all value.

[cthomer5000]

I don't think this is correct at all. If it was all about repetition then why even bother to play preaseason games? http://fermentation.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/handshake.jpg

[Daimyo]

Perhaps the real flaw here is that the game doesn't track percent developed seperately for individual skill ratings so there is no way for a offensive linemen to develop his pass blocking without also developing his run blocking (develop defined in terms of percentage of potential realized). In real life I imagine the number of times your LT pass blocks doesn't help him develop his run blocking skill much because they're very different skills. For that reason a real life gameplan of 90% passing wouldn't be nearly as effective as a balanced one that allowed players to get repititions in ways that utilized their full skill set.

In other words, how would a RB get the repititions needed to develop his rushing skills when all he gets to do is stay back and block or run routes?

[Ben E Lou]

http://fermentation.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/handshake.jpgYou are correct, sir.

[tanglewood]

Teams have been playing preseason games much longer than they have been shown on TV.

[cthomer5000]

Teams have been playing preseason games much longer than they have been shown on TV. I think scrimmages would be a better term to use here, if that's the point you are going to make. Preseason games as they currently stand are nothing but money generators, you're forced to by them as part of the season ticket package at full value... and that's a load of crap.

[Ben E Lou]

Perhaps the real flaw here is that the game doesn't track percent developed seperately for individual skill ratings so there is no way for a offensive linemen to develop his pass blocking without also developing his run blocking (develop defined in terms of percentage of potential realized). In real life I imagine the number of times your LT pass blocks doesn't help him develop his run blocking skill much because they're very different skills. For that reason a real life gameplan of 90% passing wouldn't be nearly as effective as a balanced one that allowed players to get repititions in ways that utilized their full skill set.

In other words, how would a RB get the repititions needed to develop his rushing skills when all he gets to do is stay back and block or run routes?The results in this thread don't necessarily say that the development is happening this way. I was just tracking total development, not development for particular skills. It MAY be that all that extra development in the o-line was exclusive to pass blocking, for example. My HUNCH (and it is purely a hunch) is that it isn't confined to a particular skill, but I'd have to set up another MP test league to check that.

[Daimyo]

BTW, thanks Jim for taking the time to discuss this issue here. I hope my comments don't sound too harsh. On the grand scale of things this is a pretty small issue that probably 99% of your customers will never even encounter and is a total non-issue in SP.

[jbmagic]

Whats not going to make a owner not use the long pass on every play during the regular season too.

IF an owner has a very young team, I can see an owner now trying to do the long pass on every play to get more plays for the whole season. This way the young players will develop way faster too.

Teams that are out the playoff run early, I can see them doing this too. They will get something usefull out of the season to develop their players.

I think this development flaw needs to be fix Jim. Beside more plays=development, it should also be base on stats too.

[Daimyo]

The results in this thread don't necessarily say that the development is happening this way. I was just tracking total development, not development for particular skills. It MAY be that all that extra development in the o-line was exclusive to pass blocking, for example. My HUNCH (and it is purely a hunch) is that it isn't confined to a particular skill, but I'd have to set up another MP test league to check that.
From what I know of the file structure and the way player info is stored I don't think it would be possible for it to only affect a single skill unless it affected the potential of that skill. I could, of course, be totally wrong on that.

[cthomer5000]

please stop causing problems.

[QuikSand]

I disagree and find that the longer one franchise uses this, it becomes exponentially more dramatic to the chasm between those using it and those not. If SD's team uses this over 10 seasons and gets players on the average that are 25-30 points better than the average across the rest of the league then that the team using it, would have a virtual warehouse full of good players that are only restricted to that team by Salary cap reasons. Therefore the offending team would be forced to continually run a revolving door of trading to get picks, basically turning the SkyDog Rovers into that warehouse of much better players.

I think it's important to undertand that all we're talking about is the young players' development toward their potential. It's not like training this way turns your 10/30 player into 15/35 and then 25/40... you're not developing an army of super warriors this way, as the quoted posts suggests.

All we're talking about is whether your 10/30 guy bumps up to 12/30 instead of 11/30 as a result of a different gameplan in preseason. Let's not get carried away with the "virtual warehouse" stuff. These guys are, by and large, going to reach the same endpoint -- just slightly faster.

[Solecismic]

Perhaps the real flaw here is that the game doesn't track percent developed seperately for individual skill ratings so there is no way for a offensive linemen to develop his pass blocking without also developing his run blocking (develop defined in terms of percentage of potential realized). In real life I imagine the number of times your LT pass blocks doesn't help him develop his run blocking skill much because they're very different skills. For that reason a real life gameplan of 90% passing wouldn't be nearly as effective as a balanced one that allowed players to get repititions in ways that utilized their full skill set.

In other words, how would a RB get the repititions needed to develop his rushing skills when all he gets to do is stay back and block or run routes?

That's a good point. And now it's in the notebook, which is no guarantee of anything. But at least it stays in the notebook until it's used.

[Ben E Lou]

1. do you think ALL the teams would use it? or WANT to have to use it to stay competitive?No, not all teams would use it. Some might feel forced to use it because their guys lag behind in development a bit. Others, primarily those who believe that there's a large enough sample size to make effective personnel decisions, probably wouldn't use it.

2. whew, thank god Jim built in this cap to keep people from exploiting the system.That's an interesting assessment, to be sure.

[Ben E Lou]

That's a good point. And now it's in the notebook, which is no guarantee of anything. But at least it stays in the notebook until it's used.Sounds like my hunch was just confirmed. Won't be running that test now.

[Flasch186]

I think it's important to undertand that all we're talking about is the young players' development toward their potential. It's not like training this way turns your 10/30 player into 15/35 and then 25/40... you're not developing an army of super warriors this way, as the quoted posts suggests.

All we're talking about is whether your 10/30 guy bumps up to 12/30 instead of 11/30 as a result of a different gameplan in preseason. Let's not get carried away with the "virtual warehouse" stuff. These guys are, by and large, going to reach the same endpoint -- just slightly faster.

however its not vanilla. In comparison to the competition on the same field one teams players after x amount of seasons will always be substantially better than those on other teams. This is magnified by the fact that the offending teams players reach their potential faster on the curve thus reducing the chances of an injury occuring to effect the end result AND being able to be whorded on a team because they are still under contracts that dont reflect their abilities thus allowing the whording or virtual warehouse effect. This is all magnified by the MP universe where GMs will feel that they have to trade with the offending team in order to get their hands on these mutant players (or use these "extreme" gameplans themselves), who have gotten bigger, and badder faster in their careers. I DO think that this could have very bad effects on MP leagues, their future historys (the same argument you use....we get to an end point [honolulu wins the Super Bowl] just faster and more repeatedly than they would have had they not used this exploit), the player movements, trades, parity, etc. You act as though 5 - 10 points of gain faster, while the same players in that draft class lag behind is not a big deal....I totally disagree.

How is this different then steroid use?

[QuikSand]

however its not vanilla. In comparison to the competition on the same field one teams players after x amount of seasons will always be substantially better than those on other teams. This is magnified by the fact that the offending teams players reach their potential faster on the curve thus reducing the chances of an injury occuring to effect the end result AND being able to be whorded on a team because they are still under contracts that dont reflect their abilities thus allowing the whording or virtual warehouse effect. This is all magnified by the MP universe where GMs will feel that they have to trade with the offending team in order to get their hands on these mutant players (or use these "extreme" gameplans themselves), who have gotten bigger, and badder faster in their careers. I DO think that this could have very bad effects on MP leagues, their future historys (the same argument you use....we get to an end point [honolulu wins the Super Bowl] just faster and more repeatedly than they would have had they not used this exploit), the player movements, trades, parity, etc. You act as though 5 - 10 points of gain faster, while the same players in that draft class lag behind is not a big deal....I totally disagree.

How is this different then steroid use?

Without trying to be unfair in concluding who has it right, I'll simply observe than your understanding of the effects of this tactic and mine are vastly, vastly different.

[Ben E Lou]

"C:\Program Files\Solecismic Software\Universe\steroids.fgp"
sounds much better than "C:\Program Files\Solecismic Software\Universe\preseasondevelopment.fgp".

[cthomer5000]

whording, eh?

[Ben E Lou]

whording, eh?I wasn't going to go there. :D

[jbmagic]

This development thing sucks for MP.

Teams in the regular season are going to use it too when they are out of the playoffs early or have a very young team.

[cthomer5000]

This development thing sucks for MP.

Teams in the regular season are going to use it too when they are out of the playoffs early or have a very young team. Not in any league worth being in.

[Ben E Lou]

This development thing sucks for MP.

Teams in the regular season are going to use it too when they are out of the playoffs early or have a very young team.At some point, tanking rules would kick in during the regular season.

[sovereignstar]

At some point, tanking rules would kick in during the regular season.

Exactly how would using extreme gameplans fall under "tanking"? Throwing long passes 99% of the time, 73% of the time, 59.3% of the time.. maybe 30% of the time...

[Flasch186]

Exactly how would using extreme gameplans fall under "tanking"? Throwing long passes 99% of the time, 73% of the time, 59.3% of the time.. maybe 30% of the time...


...and then how could the "blurry" tanking rules stop it more so than the "blurry - dont do that" rules you are against, SD?

[Solecismic]

...and then how could the "blurry" tanking rules stop it more so than the "blurry - dont do that" rules you are against, SD?

Issue, meet crux.

If you treat the regular season like a practice session, you can gain quite a bit, too, with the additional benefit of higher draft picks.

[Flasch186]

so the only solution, for the health of the MPs is to outlaw these extreme gameplans. How to do this? Have people report it...give one warning and then send them packing.

[QuikSand]

Seems to me that a person could simultaneously argue, without any inconsistency:

-this is fine for the preseason, since there's no material loss to anything of value by any distortion there, and there is no meaningful or detrimental effect on other teams

-this would be a problem for regular season, since it could/would mess up the league's actual results (just like anything that anti-tanking rules might address)

[Ben E Lou]

Seems to me that a person could simultaneously argue, without any inconsistency:

-this is fine for the preseason, since there's no material loss to anything of value by any distortion there, and there is no meaningful or detrimental effect on other teams

-this would be a problem for regular season, since it could/would mess up the league's actual results (just like anything that anti-tanking rules might address)Word.

[sovereignstar]

Still, where's the line? I thought if you couldn't define the line there shouldn't be a line.

[Flasch186]

detrimental effect on other teams




but there is, ALL the teams of a league relate to eachother. The reason Dean Houston is so good is because he is playing against XYZ, but if Dean Houston developed, due to this exploit, "faster" and XY developed normally, Dean houston would be a "mutant" (Z got hurt in year 4 - just before he wouldve boomed [Deans boom occurred much earlier than anticipated])....what this exploit does is allow the Apples to get much better, much faster, with far less risk of injury destroying their career, to play against oranges. Honolulu, after 10 seaosns of this will dominate forever, unless ALL the other teams use it too.

Mutant = someone who is playing far better, far faster, ESPECIALLY compared to the stats of the rest of the league due to this exploit.

[jbmagic]

Issue, meet crux.

If you treat the regular season like a practice session, you can gain quite a bit, too, with the additional benefit of higher draft picks.


Wow

Bad news for MP league to keep this under control.

I really hope this is fix for the next version of FOF. So this kind of things won't happen.

[cthomer5000]

Wow

Bad news for MP league to keep this under control.

I really hope this is fix for the next version of FOF. So this kind of things won't happen. Please say this 5-6 more times. We haven't quite gotten your point yet.

[Ben E Lou]

Please say this 5-6 more times. We haven't quite gotten your point yet.Thank you for not making me have to say it, sir.

[BrianD]

Even if SD manages to develop young players faster than everyone else, he won't be able to afford them by the time they become usable. All he will end up doing is developing players which will end up on other teams.

[Solecismic]

what this exploit does is allow the Apples to get much better, much faster, with far less risk of injury destroying their career, to play against oranges. Honolulu, after 10 seaosns of this will dominate forever, unless ALL the other teams use it too.


Injury risks occur on every play (including false starts). Extending the game increases those risks for both teams.

This is an issue that should be handled by league commissioners, as it would in real life. Now, let's say you manage to fully develop your rookies in 3 1/2 seasons, rather than 4, because you're tanking your exhibition games. I guarantee you one career-ending injury to a prized rookie will take all the wind out of your sails.

Where's the line? A strong commissioner has the power to say "I'll know it when I see it. It's a good bet that if you have to ask me that question, you're over the line."

The trade value of a 30/45 3rd-year player is about equivalent to the trade value of a 20/45 3rd-year player. I.E., pretty much nothing, and if he's playing during the regular season, you're probably eother tanking or reeling from injuries caused by extending the pre-season.

[QuikSand]

but there is, ALL the teams of a league relate to eachother. [obscenities snipped here]....what this exploit does is allow the Apples to get much better, much faster, with far less risk of injury destroying their career, to play against oranges. Honolulu, after 10 seaosns of this will dominate forever, unless ALL the other teams use it too.

Mutant = someone who is playing far better, far faster, ESPECIALLY compared to the stats of the rest of the league due to this exploit.

It's not that I am unable to understand your argument, it's just that I don't agree with it. Re-phrasing the same thing doesn't change that.

I refer you to my previous comment. You apparently think this is going to create mutant players, and massive shifts in balance of power. I think this is going to create pretty modest differences between teams that would show up in some incremental differences in the development of teams' still-undeveloped players, and that's really about it. Even after years and years of doing this, I don't think it would amount to all that much.

Instead of your "get much better, much faster" above, I'd just substitute "get no better, but slightly faster."

*shurg*

[QuikSand]

The trade value of a 30/45 3rd-year player is about equivalent to the trade value of a 20/45 3rd-year player.

A lovely illustration of what I generally expect to be the multi-year differences being discussed here, for such players.

[Ben E Lou]

A lovely illustration of what I generally expect to be the multi-year differences being discussed here, for such players.I would have estimated 3 and a quarter vs. four, but I'd agree in principle.

You mean the sky isn't falling???

[Ben E Lou]

This is an issue that should be handled by league commissioners, as it would in real life. Now, let's say you manage to fully develop your rookies in 3 1/2 seasons, rather than 4, because you're tanking your exhibition games. I guarantee you one career-ending injury to a prized rookie will take all the wind out of your sails.I'm wondering if because you'd get extra playing time for guys who'd get little/no playing time in the regular season, and then, because they're a little better than they should have been, they'd get a hair more playing time during the regular season, giving them another few extra points...

Maybe 2.5-3.0 seasons vs. 4?

[flere-imsaho]

Injury risks occur on every play (including false starts).

Don't I know it.... :(

Where's the line? A strong commissioner has the power to say "I'll know it when I see it. It's a good bet that if you have to ask me that question, you're over the line."

I believe this is the route we're going to take in the CFL. Each league (and commissioner) is going to have a different take on this, though, which is fine. It's part of what makes each league different.

[Icy]

One thing the NFL has is an I instead of an AI. The NFL can react immediately to new situations.

If a coach started treating an exhibition game as a practice, there would be an immediate reaction. The fans would become angry, perhaps there'd even be a phone call from the commissioner by the end of the first quarter.

Coaches don't handle young quarterbacks with kid gloves, they handle the media with kid gloves. Coaches understand football. Most members of the media (apologies if any are present here) can barely figure out how to turn on a laptop computer. I know. I used to be a sportswriter.

Young quarterbacks are often brought on slowly because coaches need to win games. The best and most polished young quarterbacks (Mannings) are thrown in pretty much as soon as they know the offense.

When you play a sim, like FOF, you can simulate several seasons in a day. So there's naturally a lot of emphasis on long-term development. In the NFL, there's always pressure to have a good season. So some decisions are made (like benching your promising young quarterback) because your Mark Brunell-type veteran gives you a better chance of winning today.

To make the media happy (and that's important, because the media filters what you say for the consumption of your fan base), you use tried-and-true sports cliches. Keep it simple, and the media will smile and nod.

This is why i hope one day you will include more media, team owners and fans interaction in the game. If you lose your 4 preseason games, your owner and fans should be unhappy, that would mean putting your job in risk etc etc. I want my fans happy when i win, i want my team owner mad when i lose or when i expend too much on signing players, i want the media critizising me for my bad decissions, etc. That would help a lot the inmersion factor while removing some ways of cheating.

Of course i'm one of the guys who enjoy playing text sims as role games, i want to feel i'm a real GM and not just a stats geek trying to find loopholes or extreme settings in a game engine to win other owners in mp leagues (not poiting to anybody here, there are lots of samples).

[Flasch186]

I would have estimated 3 and a quarter vs. four, but I'd agree in principle.

You mean the sky isn't falling???

then why are we even having this discussion? because you decided to (well at least promote the fact) that you "can" use a gameplan to push things "to the extreme". In an MP league, it shouldnt be about that sort of thing....

like Jim said: "just dont do it"

because its not the right thing to do.


the USFL will also outlaw this type of "exploit".

[Ben E Lou]

then why are we even having this discussion? because you decided to (well at least promote the fact) that you "can" use a gameplan to push things "to the extreme". In an MP league, it shouldnt be about that sort of thing....

like Jim said: "just dont do it"

because its not the right thing to do.


the USFL will also outlaw this type of "exploit"....and if both teams use a 10-15% game plan and end up getting 160 plays?

[Flasch186]

...and if both teams use a 10-15% game plan and end up getting 160 plays?

10 - 15% running plays? meaning 90-85% long passes?

[VPI97]

Seems to me that a person could simultaneously argue, without any inconsistency:

-this is fine for the preseason, since there's no material loss to anything of value by any distortion there, and there is no meaningful or detrimental effect on other teams

-this would be a problem for regular season, since it could/would mess up the league's actual results (just like anything that anti-tanking rules might address)
Those are my feelings on the subject...I'm cool with anyone who puts their preseason focus on development as opposed to not giving a crap at all.

[Flasch186]

Those are my feelings on the subject...I'm cool with anyone who puts their preseason focus on development as opposed to not giving a crap at all.

see now thats a decent argument. What is the alternative to SD's desire to "use" the preseason for something vs. how I feel about the preseason which is "please none of my starters get hurt." hmmmmmm

[Ben E Lou]

10 - 15% running plays? meaning 90-85% long passes?No, I'm saying more subtle. Say, 15% running plays, and 30% long passes. I'd have to test it for exact numbers, but I'm quite certain such a game plan by both teams would result in an elevated number of plays. It isn't a question of whether or not it will work; it is a question of how much. Point being, my assessment is that the smart move would be to elevate plays as high as possible while remaining within the rules.

[Flasch186]

i guess, like Jim said, Ill know it when I see it.

[Ben E Lou]

i guess, like Jim said, Ill know it when I see it.Is it really that simple? I'm saying it right now: I AM GOING TO TRY TO MAXIMIZE THE NUMBER OF PLAYS MY YOUNGSTERS ARE ON THE FIELD DURING THE PRESEASON. You're seeing it. I'm doing it. That's my only goal in my next preseason game in CFL, and in all four in IHOF. I suspect that there will be others who have this same goal. You've got to say, "Well, SkyDog threw deep 40% of the time. I guess that's ok. However, cthomer threw deep 45% of the time. We need to punish cthomer." Or, if cthomer's 45% is deemed to be ok in Week 2, then you dadgum well better be sure that Ol' SkyDog is comin' with 50% in Week 3. You've got to draw a line somewhere, and it is unfair to owners not to do so in advance.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Daimyo:

Perhaps the real flaw here is that the game doesn't track percent developed seperately for individual skill ratings so there is no way for a offensive linemen to develop his pass blocking without also developing his run blocking (develop defined in terms of percentage of potential realized). In real life I imagine the number of times your LT pass blocks doesn't help him develop his run blocking skill much because they're very different skills. For that reason a real life gameplan of 90% passing wouldn't be nearly as effective as a balanced one that allowed players to get repititions in ways that utilized their full skill set.

In other words, how would a RB get the repititions needed to develop his rushing skills when all he gets to do is stay back and block or run routes?

That's a good point. And now it's in the notebook, which is no guarantee of anything. But at least it stays in the notebook until it's used.

Yeah, Jim, this modification and the rust factor addition would pretty much end this issue.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You've got to draw a line somewhere, and it is unfair to owners not to do so in advance.

Only if you assume that there's a legitimate goal to a rule (any rule) as opposed to "oh shit, we got outsmarted and that upsets us so we have to do something other than admit than somebody else figured out how to utilize the pre-season for something other than a reverse-lottery for injuries."

I swear, this is some of the funniest shit I've seen on the forum in quite a while.
There are some seriously silly bitches playing MP FOF.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

While I don't consider this cheating, I do believe that it is a serious exploit of the game design. However, the point of playing FOF is to exploit the game design (or other players in MP). Some leagues allow certain types of exploits while others do not. I think it's up to each league to decide for themselves on this issue. Some leagues will prefer more realism while others will prefer maximum development.

The USFL has decided to ban it, and I agree. I am in the more realism camp on this one. I also have no problem with a fuzzy rule on it. The "I know it when I see it" rule works quite well I think. As it does on other things like MP trades. That's my only disagreement with SD here: the complaint about not being able to work under a no bright line test. We do it all the time in FOF on other things and in real life.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I swear, this is some of the funniest shit I've seen on the forum in quite a while.
There are some seriously silly bitches playing MP FOF.

Actually, there as some seriously silly bitches posting just before my last post.

[TurfToe]

Muddled meanderings from a madman...

No one ever called it cheating, just poor form.

The CFL apparently has more people who enjoy playing the game instead of 'playing the game'.

Congrats to SkyDog for finding a way to maximize development. If I stumbled across a little gem like that I probably wouldn't have shared it. It's called competitive advantage. Oh wait, the damned ego always gets in the way, eh SkyDog?

The more I read through this crap the more I realized that I, and many other GM's in the CFL, were right in that the 2010 Drama - "Bye, Bye, Mr. Bug" was a little hasty, both in the terms of the removal and replacement. Maybe some more due diligence should have been applied to make sure there was a good cultural fit in the exchange. (Then again, I happen to enjoy the competition in the division and hate GM turnover so SkyDog's not going anywhere.)

Note to SkyDog: Fuck 'em, do what you want. At some point stuff will come to a head (like this or maybe bigger) and you can deal with it then. Most CFL'ers are role players and no amount of debate will change that. It's the culture, but respect and flexibility for it will be worth more in the long run than the ego boost you will gain from changing or trying to change it.

If this results in a change in injury settings and a quicker sim for preseason it will be worth all of the drama.

I planned on spending 2¢ but only manged the above. My bad...

[Flasch186]

Is it really that simple? I'm saying it right now: I AM GOING TO TRY TO MAXIMIZE THE NUMBER OF PLAYS MY YOUNGSTERS ARE ON THE FIELD DURING THE PRESEASON. You're seeing it. I'm doing it. That's my only goal in my next preseason game in CFL, and in all four in IHOF. I suspect that there will be others who have this same goal. You've got to say, "Well, SkyDog threw deep 40% of the time. I guess that's ok. However, cthomer threw deep 45% of the time. We need to punish cthomer." Or, if cthomer's 45% is deemed to be ok in Week 2, then you dadgum well better be sure that Ol' SkyDog is comin' with 50% in Week 3. You've got to draw a line somewhere, and it is unfair to owners not to do so in advance.

which i in turn, as commish, would say "thanks for the warning. I too, will give you one warning, field a 'realistic' gameplan or Ill find a 'realistic' GM." Then you would do it, I would likely warn you a second time. you would do it again, and I would regrettably have to give you the boot.

[Cotton]

I think it's cool to experiment and whatnot, and I've already told SD that it was an interesting idea or innovation or what have you. But it is tanking.

I've said this in another forum but I think it bears repeat here:

Any game plan in which your own team's intercepted passes, punts, and lost fumbles are considered GOOD and a desired outcome is TANKING, or throwing a game.

How many other ways do you need to say it? It's pretty simple. Now, either your league permits it (pre-season, season, or post-season) or it doesn't. You can say, well, isn't resting your best players tanking, too?

No. It's not necessarily tanking. There are plenty of reasons for playing lower rated players, but the bottom line with that is this: In the FOF universe your third string quarterback is playing to win as much as your starter is. The players always play to win, regardless of who you play.

That's much different than this:

Any game plan in which your own team's intercepted passes, punts, and lost fumbles are considered GOOD and a desired outcome is TANKING, or throwing a game.

[Cotton]

Having said all that, a dola. I still think it's kind of cool. But I won't do it, because of that bold lettering I just typed. I don't like tanking... and I also LIKE PRESEASON!!!

It's game, not a science experiment. ;)

[Fonzie]

Is it really that simple? I'm saying it right now: I AM GOING TO TRY TO MAXIMIZE THE NUMBER OF PLAYS MY YOUNGSTERS ARE ON THE FIELD DURING THE PRESEASON. You're seeing it. I'm doing it. That's my only goal in my next preseason game in CFL, and in all four in IHOF. I suspect that there will be others who have this same goal. You've got to say, "Well, SkyDog threw deep 40% of the time. I guess that's ok. However, cthomer threw deep 45% of the time. We need to punish cthomer." Or, if cthomer's 45% is deemed to be ok in Week 2, then you dadgum well better be sure that Ol' SkyDog is comin' with 50% in Week 3. You've got to draw a line somewhere, and it is unfair to owners not to do so in advance.
Is this a rhetorical statement made for the purpose of your discussion with flasch, or are you actually declaring your intention to use this strategy in the CFL again? If the latter you might want to make that clear to the powers that be over there.

Edit: nevermind, rereading your post makes it clear that you truly intend to use it over there again. I would advise you to make sure that's OK before proceeding.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I have nowhere near enough paitience at this point to actually try to figure it out, I wonder what the correllation of views on this subject & the Little League baseball subject would be. Off-hand, I'd guess there'd be quite a bit of same battle lines between the two.

[Cotton]

And besides, I'm still not convinced this is any kind of panacea or secret potion. Any time you do something extreme to reach a potential goal, you sacrifice other areas... and some you haven't even considered or seen yet. And I hate rules and generally like innovation. So... we'll just see about that dynasty and make a judgement then about it's effectiveness in the overall picture.

But in the meantime... it is tanking. And if you do it just because someone else does it before you've even seen the end result (A TITLE), you're a lemming.

Reminds me of New Math. It was supposed to make all our kids smarter. No... it just made them all SEEM smarter.

Huge difference.

[Ben E Lou]

Edit: nevermind, rereading your post makes it clear that you truly intend to use it over there again. I would advise you to make sure that's OK before proceeding.Another guy threw deep a good bit more than I did, and no one got on him about it. I'll throw deep at precisely the same percentages he did in tomorrow's sim. Exactly what is wrong with that???