and for todays installment of coaches that should be bannished...

[saldana]

i heard about this on the Dan Patrick Show today...at first i didnt think it was a really big deal, because the part about them being 9 years old wasnt immediatly mentioned ( i came into the story in the middle)

[email protected][/email]]
If you’d like to coach 9- to 10-year- old Little League baseball next season you’ll have to submit to the following quiz

Question: If your team is winning by one run in the bottom half of the championship game with the tying run on base, and the other team’s best hitter at the plate, with a surviving cancer victim on deck - do you -

A) Challenge the hitter, because you’re trying to teach 9-year- olds how to overcome challenges and learn how to play baseball.

B) Take a walk to the pitcher’s mound and advise that your hurler be very careful with the next hitter and that a walk wouldn’t be the end of the world.

C) Scream across the diamond to intentionally walk the hitter because the cancer victim is too weak and frail to hit the ball. That way your team can get the easy win, and everyone will commend you for what a brilliant coach you are.

If you chose C, not only are you not allowed to coach, but you will now be forced to wear a dunce cap and suffer the wrath of the firehouse we have set up out back.

Unfortunately, the unbridled desire to win and live vicariously through kids playing games reared its ugly head in the 9- to 10 -year-old little league championship game at Mueller Park Friday night.

This story is a microcosm of the way our society places victory above all else, regardless of who gets hurt along the way.

It seems fitting that the two constituents would be the Red Sox and Yankees. Someone’s trying to teach us all a lesson.

The Yankees were the only undefeated team in the league, and had worked their tails off during the season. They were one out away from capping off a great year, and their coaches made a big mistake, openly pitching around the Sox’ best hitter to exploit the weaker Romney Oaks, who struck out to end the game. We’ll get to the Yanks coaches, but first we’ll take a look at Oaks.

Romney Oaks still believes he’s going to play in NBA, even though treatment for a malignant tumor doctors found on his head at the age of four stunted his growth and left him with a shunt in his head prohibiting him from playing contact sports.

While most children who have been through similar procedures have lost their gross motor skills, Romney can not only walk, but can run and play at a level comparable to his peers.

Over the past four years of chemotherapy, and radiation, while living in two different states, Romney has never been openly picked on by his peers. That’s because kids wouldn’t do that to each other. They know better. Too bad the same can’t be said of their parents.

“I defy anyone to say they wouldn’t have done the same thing,” says Yankees coach Bob Farley, who took the instruction of assistant coach Shaun Farr to intentionally walk a player to get to Oaks.

I defy Farley to come back to the real world, where winning a 9-year-old baseball tournament where most of the kids are more concerned with what treats they’ll have after the game isn’t life and death.

Air Heads might have been an appropriate treat by the way.

The incident left a bad taste in the mouth of many who were involved in a great season at Mueller Park.

Farley claims that he didn’t know anything was wrong with Oaks. Guess it was hard for him to notice the protective helmet Oaks wears in centerfield and that his swing looks more like a drag bunt. Farr can’t even claim that as an alibi. Not only does he know Oaks, he was his basketball coach in the fall.

Boy, it’s a good thing those Yankees had some advanced scouting so that they would know how to exploit the other kiddies’ weaknesses.

While Farley and Farr put in countless hours helping their kids develop this season, in one heated moment they were swept up in their own ambition and lost sight of what is truly important — that we teach our children proper principles.

Intentional walks are part of the game, yes, but was it right to magnify the weakness of one struggling youngster so that you could win a recreation little league? If you follow these men’s attitude of win at all costs, I guess it is.

What makes me sick is that there are apologists for these men’s actions. It’s a sad day if we as a community have become conditioned to the point where we’d rather win than teach our kids integrity and to lend a helping hand to those who are less fortunate.

Hopefully these coaches enjoy the trophy on their mantle, right next to their dunce caps.



futher note...the pitcher that was in the game at the time was upset enough that he had to pitch to Oaks that he refused to try out for the all star team the next day

[sovereignstar]

Some guy's article I found online? Perhaps if you find his viewpoint important enough to quote you should provide a link or some citation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.

[rowech]

If this is in fact what happened...just more and more shows how ahead of the curve Bad News Bears (the original) was.

Why in the world are kids being intentionally walked at 9 years of age? I'm sports obsessed like many of us are and it's getting sick how young we have these kids traveling, on select, teams, etc.

[rowech]

Sorry Jon...usually you and I see eye to ey but you don't do that in a non-select league at the age of 9. Select league? Okay. Kids are 12? Probably okay. Rec league 9 year olds? Those kids are 3rd and 4th graders.

[saldana]

Some guy's article I found online? Perhaps if you find his viewpoint important enough to quote you should provide a link or some citation.

there sov, i fixed it just for you....nice to see the only thing you found of interest was the way i quoted the article....i didnt think it mattered since i was using it as a reference to the event, not a support of Bens opinions.

[saldana]

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.


it was an under 10, non-competitive, developmental leauge...the coaches arent even supposed to set lineups because they dont want to stigmatize the players...everyone plays, everyone hits....it was supposed to be about learning the game, not about winning at all costs...they are 9 years old for christs sake!

[sovereignstar]

there sov, i fixed it just for you....nice to see the only thing you found of interest was the way i quoted the article....i didnt think it mattered since i was using it as a reference to the event, not a support of Bens opinions.

Don't get all pissy at me for wanting to know something about the person whose article/blog you just quoted.

[Ben E Lou]

Why in the world are kids being intentionally walked at 9 years of age?I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

[rowech]

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.

You're not talking pro athletes here. If that kid ends up dying for some reason, that 9 year old kid is going to live with the rest of his life replaying that strikeout of that kid over and over. (I wish the kid would have thought enough to walk him)

[saldana]

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.
in my under 10 league, there were no such things as walks...if you took 4 balls, the ball got put on a tee and you got a free swing at it, but it was still a ball in play...once we got to actual Little League games, at 10-12, that was different, but if the league is supposed to teach people how to PLAY, not necessarily to WIN, i think this is abhorrent....not to mention the fact that in this particular case, it taught the Yankees that it is ok to take advantage of a disabled kid that will most likely not be able to play at a more competitive leve.

[JeeberD]

it was supposed to be about learning the game, not about winning at all costs...they are 9 years old for christs sake!

If that's the case then why were they holding a championship game?

[saldana]

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.

You're not talking pro athletes here. If that kid ends up dying for some reason, that 9 year old kid is going to live with the rest of his life replaying that strikeout of that kid over and over. (I wish the kid would have thought enough to walk him)

when the count got to 2 strikes on him, he was standing at the plate crying...i would call that a psychological scar for both of those kids

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry Jon...usually you and I see eye to ey but you don't do that in a non-select league at the age of 9. Select league? Okay. Kids are 12? Probably okay. Rec league 9 year olds? Those kids are 3rd and 4th graders.

I don't give a shit if they're 6 y/o, the game is baseball & that's how it's played. Hell, I've seen a couple of kids I would have pitched around in T-Ball if there had been a way.

Again, let me make it clear that I find the yelling across the diamond that's described crass beyond description under the circumstances & pretty well indefensible (assuming the article is accurate, like I said, I only caught the tail end of the interview with the kid's dad today).

But to have not walked the opponent's best hitter in the scenario as I understand it would have been incredibly unfair to your own players and infinitely more unacceptable than the common baseball strategy employed here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

Same thing here, standard baseball strategy was employed (as well as it could be executed at least) in my first year of playing which would have been either 4 or 5 years old. I never played in any league that did otherwise, never coached in any league that did otherwise, and would be highly reluctant to have my kid within miles of a league that did otherwise.

[rowech]

And we wonder why our nation's kids are so messed up.

[saldana]

If that's the case then why were they holding a championship game?
dan patrick brought this up as well, but none of the people he was talking to really had an answer (rick reilly and michael wilbon)...i dont know either, i know we didnt have one in my under 10 and no one cared, we played because we wanted to learn how to play...there were no tryouts, everyone got to play, everyone got to hit, and no one cared that there wasnt a champion at the end...we worried about that when we were 11

[Ben E Lou]

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.OK. It said "Little League" at least twice in the article. Granted, it has been 25 years, so I don't know how it is done today, but I know that there were tryouts for Little League when I played. At age 8, you were put on a team. Tryouts started at age 9.

[Logan]

[Going straight to hell comment]

And Barry Bonds claims to have no protection in the lineup...

[/Going straight to hell comment]

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and I'm not defending or attacking the coach's actions at all. If he truly yelled that across the diamond, then that's very bad. I'm merely saying that intentional walks at age 9 aren't surprising to me at all.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and I'm not defending or attacking the coach's actions at all. If he truly yelled that across the diamond, then that's very bad. I'm merely saying that intentional walks at age 9 aren't surprising to me at all.

[saldana]

Same thing here, standard baseball strategy was employed (as well as it could be executed at least) in my first year of playing which would have been either 4 or 5 years old. I never played in any league that did otherwise, never coached in any league that did otherwise, and would be highly reluctant to have my kid within miles of a league that did otherwise.

if that is the way the league is structured, and you know that when you put your kid in it, that is different IMO, but this was supposed to be a learning league....the coaches arent even allowed to structure their batting orders, which i guess is why the worst player followed the best player in this instance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun...

Not anywhere I've ever lived it wasn't.

"Rec league" was simply shorthand for a league administered by the local governmental recreation department, as opposed to a private Little League/Dizzy Dean/Babe Ruth/etc league.

The only "non-competitive" (i.e. not keeping score) league I've ever run across was one that the YMCA director proposed in the league where I coached a couple of summers ago ... and it was ultimately a scored league because they couldn't even come up with enough players interested to field two teams otherwise.

I know that they exist in some places, my minor quibble here is just with the distinction of "rec league" not always meaning the same thing in different places.

[sovereignstar]

And we wonder why our nation's kids are so messed up.

This has nothing to do with Marilyn Manson.

[saldana]

But to have not walked the opponent's best hitter in the scenario as I understand it would have been incredibly unfair to your own players and infinitely more unacceptable than the common baseball strategy employed here.
so it is unacceptable to teach your 9 year old players that to be the best, you have to beat the best, but it is acceptable to win at any cost, including taking advantage of a handicapped kid

[JonInMiddleGA]

... but this was supposed to be a learning league....the coaches arent even allowed to structure their batting orders, which i guess is why the worst player followed the best player in this instance.

Apparently like the follow-up discussion that I missed on the show, color me likewise confused about how an unstructured league ends up with a championship game.

Maybe it wasn't a "championship game" per se, but rather just the last game of a potentially undefeated season? Or maybe the league wasn't as unstructured as it has been described after all? Or any of a host of possibilities, but something about this story just doesn't add up to me at all at this point.

[illinifan999]

I support the intentional walking 100%.

[JonInMiddleGA]

so it is unacceptable to teach your 9 year old players that to be the best, you have to beat the best, but it is acceptable to win at any cost, including taking advantage of a handicapped kid

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

[saldana]

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.
remind me not to play in your family reunion wiffleball game:)

[vtbub]

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

May I have your autograph, Mr. Clemens?;)

[molson]

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

I remember the one championship team I was on in youth sports. It was one of the geatest moments of my childhood, and it would never have happened, or had the same feeling of excitement if that particular league embraced the non-competitive nonsense that goes on in too many leagues today.

[RedKingGold]

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance.

Love,

The Human Race

[JonInMiddleGA]

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance.
Love,
The Human Race

Too late.

But if you're ever in the neighborhood, be sure to drop by, I'd love to chat in person.

[RedKingGold]

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance. Also, don't adopt and keep all children away from you by at least a 10-foot radius

Love,

The Human Race

;)

[saldana]

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

I remember the one championship team I was on in youth sports. It was one of the geatest moments of my childhood, and it would never have happened, or had the same feeling of excitement if that particular league embraced the non-competitive nonsense that goes on in too many leagues today.

i'm not saying competitive sports are a bad thing...i started playing soccer when i was 6 years old, baseball when i was 8, so i grew up in competitive sports.

my problem with this is that it was supposed to be a non competitive league, and the strategy involved here doesnt seem to gel with that mode of thinking.

let the competitiveness wait for a league that you have to try out for, where all the players arent equal, but they at least all meet a certain level of ability. if this were a year later, and these kids were playing full fledged little league, i wouldnt feel close to the same way i do about it now. i still wouldnt like it, but i could see some rationale to it...i have coached soccer youth teams, and no matter what my teams record was, or what the score of the game was, every player on my team got a chance to play, and if we were up, i pulled my scorers back to d-backs, not because i didnt want my team to win, but because sportsmanship is just as valuable as competitiveness.....sportsmanship has been overrun by competitiveness in youth sports, and this is the penultimate example

[RedKingGold]

Dola, sorry meant to add the wink face for sarcasm

[saldana]

dola, and if one of my kids were on a team and the coach did something like this, i would take my kid out of the game that second and never let them play for that guy again.

[kcchief19]

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.
When I was eight, I came to the plate in the bottom of the last inning of a game with the bases loaded and two outs. I was quite the hitter then -- peaked a bit too early -- and I had raked a couple of balls hard against them already. The opposing coach goes out and calls his entire team out to a meeting. When the meeting breaks up, the entire infield is playing on the edge of the outfield grass and the outfielders were basically brought in to fill the gaps in the infield. I was eight, so it didn't occur to me to bunt to try and tie the game, I just tried to hit the ball as hard as I could as always. I ended up grounding out to first to end the game. Afterwards, the opposing team's coach came over and explained why he did what he did. I recovered -- although I still regret not bunting. :)

Point is, I'm not critical of the strategy, just the way that the adults acted. The could have handled it much better.

[oykib]

Why the hell is the cancer survivor the protection for the team's best hitter?

Yelling across the diamond is bad. But you absolutely pitch around the team's best hitter. I think you are teaching a poor lesson if you don't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:dSxICKlI3X0J:sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/+Romney+Oaks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

According to Rick Reilly's column, this doesn't appear to be a non-competitive league, although it is one with modified rules.

This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate.

That last one has been pretty common for years now at this age level, because catcher's arms simply can't make the throw consistently, but even with max run rules, I'm not getting a sense that they aren't keeping score.

[saldana]

Why the hell is the cancer survivor the protection for the team's best hitter?

Yelling across the diamond is bad. But you absolutely pitch around the team's best hitter. I think you are teaching a poor lesson if you don't.
please see post 22

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was eight, so it didn't occur to me to bunt to try and tie the game, I just tried to hit the ball as hard as I could as always.

Not your fault, good coaching would have pointed out the option to you.

[saldana]

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:dSxICKlI3X0J:sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/+Romney+Oaks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

According to Rick Reilly's column, this doesn't appear to be a non-competitive league, although it is one with modified rules.

This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate.

That last one has been pretty common for years now at this age level, because catcher's arms simply can't make the throw consistently, but even with max run rules, I'm not getting a sense that they aren't keeping score.

no one said they werent keeping score, but what about this line leaves any doubt about what kind of league this is.
This is: Everybody bats, one-hour games. That means it's about fun. Period

thanks for posting that btw, i couldnt get to SI.com from work

[heybrad]

Just curious how far those who approve of the walk would go... If you all want to win the 9 year old rec title that bad, wouldn't you all have just cut him from your team to begin with? You want a title, right?

[Chief Rum]

I woulda beaned both hitters to save my pitcher's arm, and go after the last batter.

[molson]

let the competitiveness wait for a league that you have to try out for, where all the players arent equal, but they at least all meet a certain level of ability. if this were a year later, and these kids were playing full fledged little league, i wouldnt feel close to the same way i do about it now.

Fair enough. I guess it wasn't entirely clear that this was a "non-competitve" league. But there's certaintly a mixed message when you have a championship game. I don't believe for a second that a typical 9 year old doesn't care about winning, as these kinds of stories always suggest. Throwing a physically challenged cancer survivor into that kind of environment, where his performance determines the outcome of the game, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

no one said they werent keeping score, but what about this line leaves any doubt about what kind of league this is.

I read that as Reilly's personal take, not neccessarily the league's structure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just curious how far those who approve of the walk would go... If you all want to win the 9 year old rec title that bad, wouldn't you all have just cut him from your team to begin with? You want a title, right?

In the majority of league's that I'm familiar with, cuts aren't an option at this age level, so it seems unlikely to have been an available choice.

[heybrad]

In the majority of league's that I'm familiar with, cuts aren't an option at this age level, so it seems unlikely to have been an available choice.
Maybe that's because it's about developing kids and not winning. How are you developing your pitcher if you don't let him pitch to the top hitters. You're not helping him by giving him the easy way out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe that's because it's about developing kids and not winning.

Again, that wasn't the sole goal of any league I ever played in or coached in.

How are you developing your pitcher if you don't let hiim pitch to the top hitters.

I don't see anything that suggested they pitched around the best hitter for the entire game, it was situational. And based on the known facts the situation absolutely positively calls for the guy to be walked, anybody who knows the slightest thing at all about baseball knows that.

[saldana]

Again, that wasn't the sole goal of any league I ever played in or coached in.



I don't see anything that suggested they pitched around the best hitter for the entire game, it was situational. And based on the known facts the situation absolutely positively calls for the guy to be walked, anybody who knows the slightest thing at all about baseball knows that.


they didnt pitch around him...the DP show said he had already homered and i think doubled earlier in the game.

that doesnt change anything for me though...i am just trying to be fair with information.

[JonInMiddleGA]

they didnt pitch around him...the DP show said he had already homered and i think doubled earlier in the game.

Thanks for the info.

I'm now 110% certain that I would have walked him.

[heybrad]

I'm sorry dude, I really don't mean to sound like a dick,but I have this picture in my head of Jon, 15-20 years in the future, looking at his Rec League Championship Trophy - 9 Year Old Division, smoking a cigar and telling the story... "I knew the gimp was coming up next, so I had to put the big kid on."

[TroyF]

The coach did the 100% correct thing. It's a CHAMPIONSHIP game. If it's non competitive, then you don't have a championship game.

If the goal is to have fun and not worry about the score, I'm good with that. Then you don't have playoffs, championships. . . you hand out trophies to every kid who played and you don't even bother keeping score. What's the point in scores afterall, it's all for fun anyway?

I don't believe the coach yelled across the field. (this would be an add on that I haven't seen in any published reports about the story)

Would the intentional walk have been brought up if the kid had slammed a double down the line? Would the kid who nailed all those threes in the basketball game have been such a special story if the opposing team had simply let him fire up shots without playing any defense?

Or how about this question:

If it was just your average uncoordinated, pathetic baseball player standing in the on deck circle, are we having this discussion? Or if it was an "average" kid standing in the on deck circle? Is it any less humiliating for you to strike out to end the championship game if you are just a pathetic athlete vs. you having a condition that prevents you from being good?

And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such? Or was he on the field because he loved the game and they were trying to give the kid as normal of an existence as possible?

I find it sad that the kid struck out. I find it even sadder that he's probably went through more in his 9 years than most of us will ever have to endure in our lives. I'm completely 100% awed by the fact this kid even set foot on the field.

But I'm not saddened that in a competitive, championship game, a coach made a decision to try to win the baseball game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such?

In the bit of the interview with Dan Patrick I caught today, I think that's far from the case.

The dad even made a couple of comments to the effect that this has been a bigger deal to other people than it was to their son or to them. He said they talked about the situation, how minor it was compared to what he had already faced, and about how (with the kid being a big NBA fan) stars like Kobe & Jordan had missed shots at the end of games and lost. While the strikeout still hurt, the dad indicated that, with some perspective added, he understood it was part of the game. Best of all, the kid's comment that was quoted in the SI article, the part about working to get better so that next time it would be him they were walking to pitch to somebody else.

With that attitude, I'd say this kid is going to be just fine.

[TroyF]

In the bit of the interview with Dan Patrick I caught today, I think that's far from the case.

The dad even made a couple of comments to the effect that this has been a bigger deal to other people than it was to their son or to them. He said they talked about the situation, how minor it was compared to what he had already faced, and about how (with the kid being a big NBA fan) stars like Kobe & Jordan had missed shots at the end of games and lost. While the strikeout still hurt, the dad indicated that, with some perspective added, he understood it was part of the game. Best of all, the kid's comment that was quoted in the SI article, the part about working to get better so that next time it would be him they were walking to pitch to somebody else.

With that attitude, I'd say this kid is going to be just fine.

So in other words the media and a bunch of people are screaming bloody murder about something the actual people involved with don't really care that much about?

What a shock.

[SuperGrover]

Wow. This thread is sad in so many ways.

Let me say that I played competitive baseball from the time I was 7 (I always played up). My father coached me for about 50% of that time. Never, ever would he have done something like that at that age. He would've told the team point blank: "Guys, this is their best hitter. If we can't get him out in this situation we don't deserve to be champions." That's how you teach the game at that age.

[SuperGrover]

One more thing-THEY WERE 9 FUCKING YEARS OLD! When I played, intentional walks were forbidden at 9. I guess they could've done went the "unintentional-intentional" route, but that's pretty shitty if you ask me.

Baseball at 9 isn't baseball. It's an entirely different game. Hell, why don't we start retaliating for hit-batsmen in little league while were at it. I mean, it IS part of the game and all.

[SuperGrover]

The only "non-competitive" (i.e. not keeping score) league I've ever run across was one that the YMCA director proposed in the league where I coached a couple of summers ago ... and it was ultimately a scored league because they couldn't even come up with enough players interested to field two teams otherwise.

Dude, there are many, many different levels of competition for youngsters. "Rec" is anything that a) doesn't involve try outs and b) have teams assigned-not selected. This accounts for 90% of the leagues in America. Rec leagues are suppossed to be fun and a great learning experience. Yes, some kids will be better, but the goal of those leagues is not to dominate but to foster team spirit and teach the kids how to play the game.

They have competitive leagues at 9-I played on one. Those involved try outs and traveling and were an entirely different atmosphere. Even in those leagues, an intentional walk is kinda bush, but I could see it there. Not in a rec league.

[illinifan999]

T Rec leagues are suppossed to be fun

Winning is fun.
Losing isn't.

[caspanky]

Having been the kid that the opposing team walked a batter to get to, I wish I would have reacted the way this kid did when he got out. I always felt horrible, like I let the team down, and just really down about the whole thing, even though my teammates never blamed me. This kids reply to the situation was great. He's going to work on his hitting so he's better next time.

I think that's the key point here. It's not the family making a big deal about it, it's not the kid either. It's other people who feel that because he's "different" he should be treated differently. Where as his family just wants him to be treated the same as everone else.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm assuming that y'all are getting this "non-competitive" thing from somewhere besides the article that is posted. Correct? I don't see that anywhere. I see "Little League" a couple of times. Last I checked, "Little League" teams are the ones that play post-season tournaments that end in Williamsburg, PA. Has that changed?

[WVUFAN]

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Tell that the cancer survivor, who's just trying to play with other kids, and gets LITERALLY picked on to be the one who loses the game because the other coach wants to win more than anything else.

The coach in question should not be coaching children. Bottom line.


Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

Age 9 and a cancer survivor with an obvious handicap isn't the one you use as the guinea pig to teach that lesson.

[Subby]

Winning is fun.
Losing isn't.
I actually tend to agree with Jon and SkyDog on most of this, but your comments are kind of ridiculous. The point of youth sports is for the kids to have fun playing. You learn how to play hard, play right, and be good sports. Sure, you play to win - but the results aren't nearly as important as the learning and the experience.

We get so results-oriented with youth sports that it drives huge numbers of kids out prematurely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I actually tend to agree with Jon and SkyDog on most of this, but your comments are kind of ridiculous. The point of youth sports is for the kids to have fun playing. [quote]

But I think what he was saying was that the fun is largely encompassed in the winning, a statement I'd pretty strongly agree with. There are occasional exceptions, such as those super close games where the intensity of the moment provides some enjoyment but on the whole, I can't say I ever "had fun" while losing.

[quote]We get so results-oriented with youth sports that it drives huge numbers of kids out prematurely.

And this I really have to disagree with, having seen just the opposite happen a couple of years ago. Remember, I watched as a "non-competitive" league that couldn't draw enough kids to form teams but more than doubled their registrants once a switch to more standard competition was made.

[Toddzilla]

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

[TroyF]

I think that's the key point here. It's not the family making a big deal about it, it's not the kid either. It's other people who feel that because he's "different" he should be treated differently. Where as his family just wants him to be treated the same as everone else.


I wish all the people who are so pissed of about this and think the end of western civilization is near would read this last line.

1) Nine year olds care about winning (as my hapless video game controllers found out when I was that age)
2) Nine year olds are a crapload stronger mentally than what we give them credit for. (and this kid is probably stronger than 98% of the adult population in how he deals with things)
3) This kid has went through so much in his life, he's not and doesn't want to be the helpless victim everyone here is making him out to be. He wants to be a normal kid, treated like all the other kids.

To do that HE and I stress HE realizes that the good comes with the bad. Being treated like everyone else isn't going to be great in some instances. He understands it and his reaction is that he wants to work harder so they walk him next time.

Good for him. Good for the nine year old who has it figured out when many adults can't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Good for him. Good for the nine year old who has it figured out when many adults can't.

That was pretty much what I took away from the interview, a positive feeling about the kid's reaction. Well, that and a reminder of why I'm not real gung-ho about my own son playing what is passed off for organized sports these days.
Bottom line, I'd be happy to have him play for the eventual winning coach, not because he won but because he teaches it as it was meant to be played. On the other hand, I wouldn't want him within a hundred yards of the whining coach for any purpose other than providing an example of what a real loser looks like.

[cthomer5000]

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually set the lineup that way figuring "no way the other team would have the balls to pitch around him and pitch to the kid recovering from cancer." It's a championship game, you play to win it. If this were truly a non-competitive league there would be no sort of playoff system.

[TroyF]

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

I'd be interested to see if the whining coach had intentionally walked any other kid that year. Also how many times the big hitter had been walked during the season and if this was a typical batting order or if this were different because the whining coach was doing this as a setup. (ie: the team in question had walked the best hitter earlier in the season and he thought putting the kid with cancer behind him in the order would prevent it)

There is so much more information that is needed about this story for it to have any legs to stand on. One of those things would be a statement from the kid in question talking about how humilitated he was instead of a bunch of 30+ year olds telling him he should have been.

[Buccaneer]

So sports competition is the only/best way to develop character in kids?

[Subby]

And this I really have to disagree with, having seen just the opposite happen a couple of years ago. Remember, I watched as a "non-competitive" league that couldn't draw enough kids to form teams but more than doubled their registrants once a switch to more standard competition was made.
I am not arguing against competition. I am not arguing against playing to win. I am just saying that as a coach at this level (in my experience) it is more helpful to the development of these kids to stress the fun of competition rather than being overly results-oriented.

[BrianD]

I want to disagree with everything JimG is saying, but I'm not sure I can. One of the problems I have with the way things work in this country is the belief that everyone should be exactly equal. Job requirements are relaxed for some jobs to allow more women in, and classrooms are made mediocre so that no kid falls behind. By making sure nobody fails or gets their feelings hurt, we are also preventing people from really succeeding. In trying to make everyone special, we end up with nobody being special.

This kid's story is sad, but if he can't play ball, he is going to end up in this situation eventually. Not everybody is meant to be a good baseball player. Maybe the parents should have found an activity for him that he was better at. Maybe they should have had him take the year off to better recover and become stronger. These people need to find out where his strengths are and encourage him to succeed in those areas.

[Warhammer]

First, let me ask this question:

If this kid was not a cancer survivor, is this even an issue?

At 9 years old, given that the star hitter hit a triple and a HR in the game, the pitcher on my Little League team would have walked the guy himself.

Second, if the kid gets a hit, is this an issue?

Third, if this was a non-competitive league, why have playoffs or a championship?

Fourth, how is this any different from a child that is small for his age, or just a bad athelete?

I don't worry about the kid that was a cancer survivor. He's been through more than this, and he has already shown his willingness to overcome obstacles. He wants to lead a normal life. That means having the chance to hit the home run, or strike out.

There are people that are wagging their tongues that this kid had tears in his eyes after the second strike, that he was feeling pressure. Oh that poor child that overcame cancer, how dare the big, bad, mean other team make him feel that. Where's the pub about how this kid overcame the odds to even be in that position. Most kids that suffered through his ordeal never get to be in the batter's box and experience that.

If the child wants to be normal, he needs to be willing to suffer through what the other kids do in the same situation. Just because he is a cancer survivor is not reason to take it easy on him.

I have watched kids at 5 years old in leagues where scores were not being kept, keep score and let their parents know who was winning.

The kids I worry about are the ones on the winning team.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I can't help but wonder, what if the kid gets a hit there? Reilly, Patrick, etc might still be talking about the story, but in terms of how wonderful, heartfelt, tear-jerking it was. Nobody would have cared that the intentional walk was issued then, but it wouldn't have changed the fact the coach bypassed a stronger hitter for a weaker hitter.

[rowech]

There are people that are wagging their tongues that this kid had tears in his eyes after the second strike, that he was feeling pressure. Oh that poor child that overcame cancer, how dare the big, bad, mean other team make him feel that. Where's the pub about how this kid overcame the odds to even be in that position. Most kids that suffered through his ordeal never get to be in the batter's box and experience that.



If I'm not mistaken, the kid that was crying was the pitcher...not the hitter. He's the one that's taking the brunt of everything. He's the one that is messed up. The batter will be cool about it because as people have said, he has developed that attitude through treatment. His parents seem to be alright with it as well. The pitcher is the one I feel bad for. Guess he couldn't play for Guillen.

[Warhammer]

On the DP show yesterday they said the hitter had tears in his eyes, and that was what all the national news was talking about. The kid's father mentioned that the hitter did cry after he struck out. That was when the father talked to his son about the situation, he was still upset later that night, but in the morning showed his new resolve.

[Tigercat]

Doing the right coaching move means nothing for kids in a developmental league. A kid can learn the right strategy anytime, including watching baseball on TV.

The best move in the spirit of the game was to pitch to the tougher hitter. Not to mention it would have been more beneficial baseball-experience wise to all kids involved.

[Oilers9911]

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.

Jesus, talk about a black and white reponse. Tactically, yes you walk the good hitter but this isn't a black and white issue. These kids are playing for fun, not in the major leagues, or college or even high school. So great, you have your little trophy and you can brag about it until the following year but there is no dignity in this kind of victory, making a very sick little boy cry himself to sleep? Congratulations on that victory.

[TroyF]

Jesus, talk about a black and white reponse. Tactically, yes you walk the good hitter but this isn't a black and white issue. These kids are playing for fun, not in the major leagues, or college or even high school. So great, you have your little trophy and you can brag about it until the following year but there is no dignity in this kind of victory, making a very sick little boy cry himself to sleep? Congratulations on that victory.

I want to make sure I have this straight. . .

It's OK for the pitcher who gives up the HR to the great hitter to lose the game to cry himself to sleep? Or maybe for the second baseman who makes a throwing error to lose a game? It's ok for him right, because he didn't have cancer?

Kids cry themselves to sleep over losing no matter how talented or awkward they are. The league has a setup. There is a championship game. There is 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning. With that setup, there will be heros and there will be losers. And the losers aren't going to be happy. Whoever the key "loser" is, he's going to take it hard. It could be ANY of those kids and the reaction is the same.

It still amazes me that the little boy who cried himself to sleep is handling this and has a better understanding of what happened than people who are trying to "protect" him. I'll just move on now and let the people who think me, jon, sky and others are just mean spirited people have their say.

[BrianD]

It is easy to take outrage in a situation like this which is so extreme, but it is much harder to draw the line on what is and isn't appropriate.

[illinifan999]

What about the catchers with weak arms who has to watch kids steal on him everytime they get on base? Where's the story on those horrible coaches with the audacity to give steal signs on that poor catcher with the weak arm?

[Gary Gorski]

As someone who is involved in coaching youth sports I have to say I find the coach's actions to be appaling. First off, if he yelled that across the field he should have no business coaching kids. Period. Second, these kids are 9 freakin years old. I don't care if the "right" move according to baseball strategy is to intentionally walk the kid - wasn't that the right move the time the kid was up and belted his HR and double or triple or whatever it was or was it only the right move when they had the possibility of losing their undefeated championship season? This was a bush league move by the coach with 9 year olds playing. He basically told his pitcher you can't get their good kid out but I think you can strike out a disabled kid who has cancer and we'll win the championship.

Aside from the move of going for the championship by facing a disabled kid that was a sweet piece of coaching for his own player. Nothing like telling a 9 year old that you're pretty sure that if he pitches to their best player that he'll blow the game for you so how about you just pitch to a kid who is a disabled cancer survivor instead. Gee coach, thanks for the encouragement and the vote of confidence. So what if you pitch to the kid and he smacks another homer - at least you can talk to your pitcher and tell him that he did his best and that's all you can ask of him. I'm not saying to tell the kid to just lay a fat one in there to get belted - he can try to make him swing at bad pitches - but to tell him to not even try to pitch because there is a handicapped kid up next REGARDLESS if it is the proper baseball strategy or not is just poor sportsmanship and a poor way of coaching his own pitcher. Look at the reaction of the kid doing the pitching - do you think he wanted to strike out the cancer kid to win the game knowing that he was told to avoid their best player in order to do it?

If you're playing high school sports or above then fine - I think once kids get to that level there should be an emphasis on winning and doing what it takes while playing fairly to win. I'm also 100% against the sissification of sports where nobody makes an out and nobody wins or loses. Kids need to be taught that they don't always win but you can teach those lessons and still be a good sport. The problem is coaches who think they're Joe Torre and sit in the dugout thinking "wow, everyone will say what a brilliant coaching move walking that kid was to ensure we win the championship" when the batter and his own pitcher end up crying about being put in that situation, half the kids out there are wondering what they're going to order from McDonalds after the game and most of the rest of the people are going to look at him as a jackass for doing it. For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship?

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's OK for the pitcher who gives up the HR to the great hitter to lose the game to cry himself to sleep? Or maybe for the second baseman who makes a throwing error to lose a game? It's ok for him right, because he didn't have cancer?

Actually, I think the evil must be inherent to the competition, that's what's really to blame here. No sense in kids finding out how the world actually works or anything.

Kids cry themselves to sleep over losing no matter how talented or awkward they are.

While I'm pretty much disgusted enough with the handwringing crowd to just drop the conversation at this point (and thank God that none of them are anywhere near my kid), you hit on one thing that I can't believe so many people have apparently overlooked -- kids crying after losses is about as common as kids picking their noses while playing in the field. I can't recall a loss that I didn't cry after to be honest, and when you're on .500'ish teams that's quite a bit of crying. I've cried after going 0-for-4 and cried after going 6-for-6, a loss was a loss to me. But it was because I cared about what I was doing, because that was the whole point of the exercise. I didn't sweat through practices because I enjoyed the fresh air or some other non-competitive bullshit, I sweated through them because I wanted to be good enough to beat whoever was in the other dugout. Minus that, you might as well be running around in circles or something, and damned if I was gonna be outside in 90+ degrees for no good reason. I had better sense than that when I was like five.

But somewhere along the way, we seem to have become terrified of having our kids find out that there are winners & losers in life, and we're apparently so societally afraid of them being on the losing end that we'd rather try to deny it even exists.

Tell you what folks, as long as you don't infect mine with that Pollyanna bullshit approach, you do what you want with yours. It'll make his path to the top a whole lot easier, and I'll do my best to make him a good boss for your non-acheivers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to THE NEXT BATTER?

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

[Crapshoot]

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

I've thought about it a lot, and I think this last line really makes Jon's point. I don't want to be condescended to - and that was especially true as a kid. He's shown the guts to get up there and play despite everything - respect him enough to treat him as a ballplayer there.

[TroyF]

For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship?

I would want the coach to do, within the confines of the rules, to make the decisions he felt would win the game. If I chose to have my chile in a non competitive enviornment, I'd put him there. If he's in the middle of a championship game, I want the coach to make sound baseball decisions to win the game.

Were I the parent of the cancer surviver, I'd want my child to be treated like everyone else. I wouldn't want a coach telling me he had to play RF, had to hit off a tee or wasn't allowed to play more than 2 innings at a time because he was disabled. Nor would I want it to flip the other way to where he got special treatment because of his situation.

And that's where the more information part of the story comes in. How predominant is intentionally walking hitters in this league? Is it a common strategy or was this the only situation all year it happened? Did the coach whining ever IW an opposing batter? Did he put this kid in the lineup and put him in the spot he did because this hitter was walked a lot during the season and he wanted to find a way to prevent it? Was this a typical batting lineup?

Everyone here keeps making ridiculous assumptions about the league when none of us know what standards the league played under all year.

And again, I don't ever remember seeing a single story about the incident where the coach hollered across the field. If he did, he should be gone. Period. But that has nothing to do with the cancer victim either. Were he to have yelled across the field that the little awkward kid coming up to the plate, it's every bit as bad as screaming about the cancer victim who can't hit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Were he to have yelled across the field that the little awkward kid coming up to the plate, it's every bit as bad as screaming about the cancer victim who can't hit.

Hmm , I'm not sure I totally agree with you on that point, mostly because "just throw strikes, he can't hit you, you da man" stuff seems like a pretty common encouragement from the dugout to the mound.

And, depending upon the specific rules of the league (again, one of the many parts of the story that are missing), the coach may not have been allowed to visit the mound to have the conversation more discreetly. I know that's the case in some leagues I've seen over the years, although darned if I ever understood exactly the purpose of it.

[Subby]

Tell you what folks, as long as you don't infect mine with that Pollyanna bullshit approach, you do what you want with yours. It'll make his path to the top a whole lot easier, and I'll do my best to make him a good boss for your non-acheivers.
Did you steal this line from Marv Marinovich? :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Did you steal this line from Marv Marinovich? :D

Interesting sidebar about him. I mentioned that whole situation to a guy in his early 20's the other day, big football fan, wants to be a coach and/or trainer someday ... had no idea who or what I was talking about.

Not really all that surprising considering how fast time flies, but it really made me feel even older.

[Gary Gorski]

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

No, I never said that the pitcher should lob one in for the cancer kid to hit or walk him as well so that he didn't have to make the last out. I'm glad the kid pitched to him and that the other coach didn't stoop to the level of telling the kid to just try to get a walk or lean into a pitch or attempt to pinch hit for him. I said the coach is an ass for setting up that situation in a game with kids who are NINE.

You really want a coach to tell your son that he has no faith in his ability to get a good player out so lets just skip him and try to get a lesser player out? Cancer kid or not I'm not intentionally walking ANYONE in a game of nine year olds. Would you be encouraging your nine year old to play hack-a-shaq with some kid who has trouble getting the ball up to the rim? Within the rules? Sure. Is it a strategy the pros use? Yup. Does it make it right for a sporting contest with kids who are nine? Not in my book. It's not about pitying the kid who has cancer - its about saying I want to win the championship of the nine year olds so badly that I'm willing to do whatever it takes when the kids themselves don't want to win it that way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You really want a coach to tell your son that he has no faith in his ability to get a good player out so lets just skip him and try to get a lesser player out?

When the guy is already 2-for-2 against him, both for extra bases? And with THE game of the season on the line, and a double at least ties the game? You're damned skippy I do.

Would you be encouraging your nine year old to play hack-a-shaq with some kid who has trouble getting the ball up to the rim?

If the kid is killing you from the inside the lane but can't shoot FT's? Damned straight. And they better foul his ass to the floor too, no excuse for allowing an old-fashioned three point play.

And if they've got a gimpy QB who is killing me throwing the ball but can't escape the rush, I'm going to come after him with every rusher the rules allow for.

There is nothing unsporting about being smart enough to know how to win. It's why I've worked to teach kids who couldn't hit a beachball with a tennis racket how to bunt (in a league where bunting was legal). That worked out well enough to make a mini-hero of the smallest kid on our 8-9 y/o team that year, hitting under .200 for the season with ... but with two strikes & the infield playing back stupidly, he got it down against the best pitcher in the league and kept a rally going when otherwise there was little chance of him doing anything other than striking out.

It's why a chubby kid who wasn't very coordinated and was quite slow to boot had the highest BA & OBP on his team, and led the league in steals for three straight seasons at age 7, 8, and 9... he knew how to bunt, he got hit by more than a few pitches & he knew which catchers could throw & which ones couldn't. By playing within the rules, being situationally smart, that kid contributed beyond what his natural talent would have dictated. Yeah, I didn't hit for power but by God I could get on base and score some runs.

[heybrad]

It's why a chubby kid who wasn't very coordinated and was quite slow to boot had the highest BA & OBP on his team, and led the league in steals for three straight seasons at age 7, 8, and 9... he knew how to bunt, he got hit by more than a few pitches & he knew which catchers could throw & which ones couldn't. By playing within the rules, being situationally smart, that kid contributed beyond what his natural talent would have dictated. Yeah, I didn't hit for power but by God I could get on base and score some runs.
I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

[Gary Gorski]

If the kid is killing you from the inside the lane but can't shoot FT's? Damned straight. And they better foul his ass to the floor too, no excuse for allowing an old-fashioned three point play.

You sir are what is wrong with youth sports today. You would tell a nine year old to "foul his ass to the floor"? That's just sick and pathetic. Let me guess, you would have never let that kid hit the second extra base hit off your pitcher in the game because you would have told your pitcher to throw at his head for hitting a home run, right? How can you sit there and say that you're going to tell nine year olds they should be intentionally trying to take down players? And you have children? So if one of your children turns out to be a good basketball player you will understand if the other team decides to just start knocking him down and possibly injure him since they can't defend him any other way? I just hope you never have to face situation that to see how messed up that is.

[Warhammer]

I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

I don't think you read his entire post. He specifically mentioned that he had the kid that had two strikes bunt instead of swing. I agree with his premise. In situations you do what you are good at. You practice what you are weak at doing, but in the big game you stick to your strengths.

When I played basketball, I was a deadly three point shooter. I couldn't count on that all the time as the defense would come out on me. So I practiced faking the three point shot and driving. That was enough to keep the defense honest, but I was not as effective finishing that way. When the game was on the line, I would stick to my strength as the defense would have to play honest because they knew I could drive.

What JiMG described is the risky play. The defense was playing honest, and the kid stuck to his strength and got the desired result. Who else bunts with two strikes, you're out if you put the ball on the wrong side of the line! What the heck is wrong with that?

[Warhammer]

You sir are what is wrong with youth sports today. You would tell a nine year old to "foul his ass to the floor"? That's just sick and pathetic. Let me guess, you would have never let that kid hit the second extra base hit off your pitcher in the game because you would have told your pitcher to throw at his head for hitting a home run, right? How can you sit there and say that you're going to tell nine year olds they should be intentionally trying to take down players? And you have children? So if one of your children turns out to be a good basketball player you will understand if the other team decides to just start knocking him down and possibly injure him since they can't defend him any other way? I just hope you never have to face situation that to see how messed up that is.

There are ways to foul to ensure that the shot is not going in that can be done without injuring the kid. I've seen it done as early as 10, ok that's not 9, but that was when I started playing.

What JiMG is saying is that you do everything allowed within the rules short of injuring players to get the win.

I'm beginning to think the only way to win this argument is to say that the cancer survivor should not have been allowed to play because of the ramifications of his playing would have on the normal kids. Imagine the ridicule this poor pitcher would have suffered had the kid gotten a base hit!

Ridiculous statement? Based upon the line of reasoning some are taking here its not.

[heybrad]

I don't think you read his entire post.
It's a flaw of mine. I get going a little too fast.

I think the point I'm making is that at the age of 9, maybe the point of the season is try and make your kids better players/people. Correct me if I'm wrong Jon, but what I'm getting out of your posts, is even at 9, win at all costs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

Uh, uh. That wasn't my kid, that was ME, a very long time ago. And if the infield did manage to remember to play in, then I'd swing away and get the occasional bloop double right over 'em (because the OF's were never smart enough to play shallow no matter what the infield did).

Having played since I was 4, by 9 years old I didn't need anybody to tell me what I could/couldn't do. Not everybody can hit .400 swinging away, I didn't really even had gap power, but I knew I could contribute by being a high OBP guy. I think in some degree that's something that has changed the nature of at least youth baseball today versus when I was playing, more kids had a better understanding of the game then than I see now. As SD (or somebody) mentioned up the thread, we wouldn't have needed anyone to tell us to pitch around or even IBB the guy in this situation, most of us would have known to do it anyway.

Meanwhile, the kid I later taught to bunt was a tough case. He was a rookie in a league where every other kid had been playing for several years. He was significantly undersized having been born prematurely & had several health issues along the way that basically stunted his growth. He also had about the worst eyesight imaginable, well beyond "coke bottle" glasses, and you can't hit what you can't see. But I had known his family pretty much my whole life, remembered when the kid was born, all the crap he had been through, etc.

We had three coaches & we pretty much devoted at least one to working with him for at least half a practice every day through the year but there just wasn't a lot of ability there. Not his fault, it happens. He was frustrated to tears more than once, he wasn't not hitting for lack of trying nor for lack of coaching (one of the other coaches was actually quite good at instruction), he was just so far behind that catching up with the league was pretty well impossible over just one summer. His mother let me know that he was talking about just quitting altogether, but she really hoped he wouldn't because it was the first time he had ever tried any group sport, she felt like it was important that he at least see it through to the end of the season.

Remembering what I had done way back when, I figured it was worth a try.

Over a couple of weeks, I worked on bunting with him in addition to his normal BP. Lo & behold, he kind of got it. He was at least making contact. So, up against the team we were battling for first place (killer pitching is hard to beat at that age & they had more of it than we did), down by a run late & him due up again on a O-fer day with nothing but strikeouts so far, we decided to give him the best chance to succeed available -- and he dropped it down the 3B line, caught the defense completely off-guard, no chance to throw him out. If you had seen the smile on his face standing down at first, littlest guy on the field feeling like he had just outsmarted the bullies of the league, seen his mother absolutely losing her mind with delight, I think you would understand why I've never regretted that move for a second. It was one of two bunt hits he got that season, afterwards most of the teams played in for it so we couldn't use it effectively but I think he even got a kick out of making them pay extra attention to him at the plate. Infinitely better than having infielders sit/squat/relax when you come up.

We ended up losing that game in extra innings, ended up finishing second in the league to that same team when the season was over, but it wasn't for lack of effort by players or coaches. We got the most out of those kids they had to offer, and we gave them everything we knew how to give them, including a chance to win.

That kid played one more season after that, his mother telling me later that he said it just wasn't as much fun without the same coaches he had the first year.

[BrianD]

If the coach hadn't instructed the pitcher to walk the kid, many pitchers at that age would have known to pitch very carefully to the big hitter and probably would have walked him. You may want to yell at the coach for teaching questionable sportsmanship, but most kids would know it without being taught.

I remember playing on the championship t-ball team at the age of 6 (random draw team that ended up being completely stacked). I played the pitcher spot and could tell where a batter would hit based on the way they lined up. I would set myself up at the same distance as the pitcher's mound, but right were the batter was going to hit. It really wasn't in the spirit of the game, but it was damn effective. The league even had to initiate a rule to make the pitcher stay on the mound until the ball was hit. The bottom line is that kids are very competitive even before the age of 9, and pitching around a big kid is not a difficult strategy to come up with.

[Karlifornia]

What kind of crap is that? Pitching around a 9 year old? What kind of grown man ever looks at a 9 year old and says, "I think we better not mess with this kid."?

It's not like this is the MLB. The 9 year old kid that doesn't get to hit loses 50% of the reason that they're there. Getting to hit is the ultimate part of playing baseball when you're in 4th grade. All eyes are on you, and you want knock em dead. No 9 year old gets excited about walking. Not to mention that this was the last time the kid would even get a chance to swing the bat all season and you rob him of that chance because you're afraid of him? STOP BEING AFRAID OF NINE YEAR OLDS, JACKASS.

Adam Morrison would have pitched to him. :)

[Gary Gorski]

There are ways to foul to ensure that the shot is not going in that can be done without injuring the kid. I've seen it done as early as 10, ok that's not 9, but that was when I started playing.

What JiMG is saying is that you do everything allowed within the rules short of injuring players to get the win.

I'm beginning to think the only way to win this argument is to say that the cancer survivor should not have been allowed to play because of the ramifications of his playing would have on the normal kids. Imagine the ridicule this poor pitcher would have suffered had the kid gotten a base hit!

Ridiculous statement? Based upon the line of reasoning some are taking here its not.

No what is ridiculous is trying to spin his statement about intentionally knocking players down. My point has nothing to do with the cancer survivor - it doesn't matter who is in that spot - I don't see any reason to intentionally walk ANYONE playing 9 year old baseball and there's no way in hell you can justify telling kids they should be trying to knock down other kids to prevent them from scoring in basketball.

Why not just let the kids play the game? They're KIDS! Teach them to do their best, try their hardest and that if they win, they win and if they lose, they lose but at least they lost giving their best effort. Would you advocate scoring a basket and then stalling for the rest of the quarter simply because its a "legal" strategy to win? Would you send a kid who is not very good into a game to be a "goon" in hockey or basketball to try and rough up the other team's good players? The sick thing is some adults (and I use adults simply in the sense of their age) think thats ok and JiMG seems to be right along those lines saying he would tell kids to knock down opposing players in his version of nine-year-old-hack-a-shaq.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You sir are what is wrong with youth sports today. You would tell a nine year old to "foul his ass to the floor"?

No sir, YOU are what's wrong with youth today. You're apparently afraid to give them a chance to succeed, instead you'd rather they all just tie or something. Guess what, life doesn't work that way.

I expected you to know enough about basketball that you don't have to hurt anybody to prevent a made basket on a shooting foul. Tie up the shooters arm, follow through on the foul, don't touch foul a shooter, you hack enough to prevent him from completing the shot.

"Foul all the way to the floor" was the phrase one of our HS coaches used for it, and demonstrated what he meant, basically emphasizing that if you're going to foul down in the paint then you follow through the foul "all the way to the floor". It has nothing to do with trying to injure anybody. Same thing as "drive the ball up through his damned nose", that coaches description of making a forceful offensive move from the low post, point being that you can't be timid inside & that your job down low is to get the shot off even if you're being fouled. He didn't necessarily mean that the goal each time was to break somebody's nose.


Let me guess, you would have never let that kid hit the second extra base hit off your pitcher in the game because you would have told your pitcher to throw at his head for hitting a home run, right?

I don't know, was he crowding the plate? I'm not much for headhunting, but we taught & were consistently taught to protect the plate & not be afraid to back somebody up. I've also suggested to a few very hard throwers that they not be too concerned about their control during warm up pitches, and have maybe suggested there might be benefits to having one of those rattle off the backstop at top velocity.

So if one of your children turns out to be a good basketball player you will understand if the other team decides to just start knocking him down and possibly injure him since they can't defend him any other way?

Again, you're reading intent to injure, which isn't what I said or meant. But getting fouled, occasionally fouled hard but clean? That's a realistic & legitimate part of the game.

[Tigercat]

We have parents here who would want the coach to win the game before giving their young son, if their son was the pitcher or any of the members of the winning team really, a chance to improve his game by facing the tougher batter?

To me thats messed up prorities, especially in a league/team meant for development. But we all have our own different priorities I guess.

[JonInMiddleGA]

On a side note (having now read Gary's second pussified rant) -- I consider the phrase "Hack-A-Shaq" to mean a strategy of putting him on the line as often as possible. Granted, with players that size, there's a good bit of force involved in the fouls at times, but I don't associate it at all with any organized attempt to hurt the big fella (although quite a few players would have liked to I imagine).

Does "Hack-A-Shaq" not mean what I think it means?

[Tigercat]

No sir, YOU are what's wrong with youth today. You're apparently afraid to give them a chance to succeed, instead you'd rather they all just tie or something. Guess what, life doesn't work that way.


A win as a little kid is a success? Instead of valuable experience he can build on later? Winning isn't experience, its an outcome of success. And hes not going to get success when you pass up opporitunities for challenge and growth.

[BrianD]

We have parents here who would want the coach to win the game before giving their young son, if their son was the pitcher or any of the members of the winning team really, a chance to improve his game by facing the tougher batter?

To me thats messed up prorities, especially in a league/team meant for development. But we all have our own different priorities I guess.

I think many parents would not view a championship game as a place to improve your game. That is usually what practices are for.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... when you pass up opporitunities for challenge and growth.

As a wisened old graybeard once said:
You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when youre sittin at the table.
Therell be time enough for countin when the dealins done.

[Gary Gorski]

No sir, YOU are what's wrong with youth today. You're apparently afraid to give them a chance to succeed, instead you'd rather they all just tie or something. Guess what, life doesn't work that way.

Wrong - read my earlier post. I'm 100% for winning and losing - I just prefer that when it comes to kids that young you just let them play it out and decide it for themselves without resorting to things like intentional walks or hack-a-shaq.

I expected you to know enough about basketball that you don't have to hurt anybody to prevent a made basket on a shooting foul. Tie up the shooters arm, follow through on the foul, don't touch foul a shooter, you hack enough to prevent him from completing the shot.

"Foul all the way to the floor" was the phrase one of our HS coaches used for it, and demonstrated what he meant, basically emphasizing that if you're going to foul down in the paint then you follow through the foul "all the way to the floor". It has nothing to do with trying to injure anybody.

I'm well aware of what it means and its a bit different when you are instructing high schoolers with a demonstration and explanation of what you are trying to accomplish than telling a nine year old to "foul their ass to the floor"

I'm not much for headhunting, but we taught & were consistently taught to protect the plate & not be afraid to back somebody up.

The fact that you would consider telling a kid to throw at someone to back them off the plate is disturbing enough.

Again, you're reading intent to injure, which isn't what I said or meant. But getting fouled, occasionally fouled hard but clean? That's a realistic & legitimate part of the game.

First off, how many times do you think you're going to knock a kid down or brush him off the plate without injuring someone? Soon enough its going to happen and a kid is going to get a concussion because you are telling kids that hard fouls and brush backs are part of the game. It might even be on accident that someone gets seriously hurt but why are you even putting kids in that position? Those things might be part of the game in the major leagues but those things have no place in youth sports.

Answer me this - As a parent, can you honestly sit there and tell me you are ok if someone throws at your kid if he crowds the plate? See, I'm not ok with that. I could never tell a kid to throw at someone because he crowds the plate. Steroids are "part of the game" now in pro, collegiate and sadly even some high school sports. Are you going to tell your kids to shoot themselves up because that's what it takes to compete at the highest level and win? Are you willing to tell your children to do even that if thats what it takes to win?

[Warhammer]

No what is ridiculous is trying to spin his statement about intentionally knocking players down. My point has nothing to do with the cancer survivor - it doesn't matter who is in that spot - I don't see any reason to intentionally walk ANYONE playing 9 year old baseball and there's no way in hell you can justify telling kids they should be trying to knock down other kids to prevent them from scoring in basketball.

Why not just let the kids play the game? They're KIDS! Teach them to do their best, try their hardest and that if they win, they win and if they lose, they lose but at least they lost giving their best effort. Would you advocate scoring a basket and then stalling for the rest of the quarter simply because its a "legal" strategy to win? Would you send a kid who is not very good into a game to be a "goon" in hockey or basketball to try and rough up the other team's good players? The sick thing is some adults (and I use adults simply in the sense of their age) think thats ok and JiMG seems to be right along those lines saying he would tell kids to knock down opposing players in his version of nine-year-old-hack-a-shaq.

I think you are going overboard with what people here are talking about. I have been the victim of plenty of hard fouls in basketball. Did any of them injure me? No, but I was sure not to drive the lane as much, which effectively limited my game, when it happened (happened after position switch). That was part of the reason why I was moved from the 4 spot to the outside positions (I wasn't much for the physical contact early in my career) (1,2, and 3 spots).

At age 11, I was slowing down basketball games on my own accord (first year I played PG) to force other teams to come out of their zone. This opened up the middle for our very good, but poor ball catching center (he doubled caught every ball which was bad for a defense packing it in).

Very few fouls in basketball are considered flagrant or intentional fouls. However, many fouls in basketball ARE intentional fouls. Are we supposed to declare that every foul made by a guy on a fast break is an intentional? Most of the time those fouls are intentional in intent, but not by the rulebook.

For the record, in basketball, I would tell the kid to get a body on the guy he is defending if down in the post. That is good solid play. Everytime the ball goes up, you make sure you get the guy on your butt, and start working him back. That is excellent form, but many players dislike the contact (and this does not need to be a hard jarring force either to be effective, just slow and steady). In hockey, I would never tell someone to go out and injure a guy.

You can play physical and not have any intent to injure.

[Gary Gorski]

I consider the phrase "Hack-A-Shaq" to mean a strategy of putting him on the line as often as possible.

Yes, I'm referring to this and why do you need to do this in youth sports? Seriously, your feeling is if we can't win the game the way its normally played is there something we can do that's still within the rules to win it another way. You're the kind of guy that would have your catcher dress really slowly and have your pitcher make lots of pickoff attempts in a tight game that you're leading in order to get the game stopped because of darkness or stall the last 3 minutes of a quarter to preserve that all important victory for your nine year old. Parents like you wreck sports for kids - what's wrong with just letting the kids play it out?

I don't believe in sports where nobody makes an out and nobody wins and loses - I just think that with kids under high school age that winning and losing is simply a result of the game and that there's no need to resort to things like intentionally walking a good hitter or fouling a bad free throw shooter. They have plenty of time to play on ultra-competitive travel teams and once they hit high school winning and losing becomes so important that often times nothing else matters - why else are high school kids shooting their bodies full of steroids? They're freaking nine years old - let them have a few years of their life being able to play in games where it really doesn't matter if they win or lose since for the rest of their life it does.

[Gary Gorski]

You can play physical and not have any intent to injure.

I totally agree - sports are physical and there is contact and that contact progresses the older you get and further up the ladder you go and hard fouls are "part of the game" - but they don't need to be part of the game when you're nine. What do you get if you win when you're nine? Who cares? When you're 18 and playing for the state championship and possibly a college scholarship - well then you play the game a little differently but when kids are nine, most of them are there because their friends are there and they care more about going for ice cream after a game than winning because you intentionally fouled a kid twelve times who couldn't make a free throw if his life depended on it. Let them win, let them lose but can't we just let them play?

[BrianD]

Out of curiosity Gary, are you just against coaches coaching these strategies, or would you be against the players doing them on their own?

[Gary Gorski]

Out of curiosity Gary, are you just against coaches coaching these strategies, or would you be against the players doing them on their own?

I'm against coaches - at that age level - instructing their kids to do those things. If the kid pitching wants to throw four to the backstop because he doesn't want to face that kid again then so be it but I'm not telling him to do it. At that age I say just let the kids play it out how they want to. If we're talking high school age ball then I have no problem with coaches getting more involved with things like intentional walks and other strategies. I'm not saying that youth coaches shouldn't set their kids up to succeed - put them at the best spot in the field and batting order to try and win - but then let them win or lose on their own.

[Warhammer]

I totally agree - sports are physical and there is contact and that contact progresses the older you get and further up the ladder you go and hard fouls are "part of the game" - but they don't need to be part of the game when you're nine. What do you get if you win when you're nine? Who cares? When you're 18 and playing for the state championship and possibly a college scholarship - well then you play the game a little differently but when kids are nine, most of them are there because their friends are there and they care more about going for ice cream after a game than winning because you intentionally fouled a kid twelve times who couldn't make a free throw if his life depended on it. Let them win, let them lose but can't we just let them play?

Hard fouls were part of the game when I was 9. I didn't see anything wrong then, and don't now, as long as there is no intent to injure. That is important because some kids do intend to injure and I agree that is wrong.

Also, you're right about what you get at 9 not meaning all that much. However, for the kids it does mean a lot. I have a 4 year old at home that only wants to win. When he was out at soccer practice he was concerned with whether or not he scored more goals than the other kids.

When I play games with him, I let him win some times, and make sure he loses sometimes so he has an even keel. He ALWAYS wants to win. I think it is important to learn how to lose as well as win, and always point out what I did to win, etc. As a result, we don't play Candyland or games of that ilk at home, because there is nothing you can do to ensure a win at those games.

For the record, I am a very competitive person. But, as people have mentioned you have to keep everything in perspective. If I win a game of Power Grid, who cares, outside of the group I was playing with? If I win the league championship game in the Imperial FL or the IHOF, who cares outside of that league? Plus, it isn't healthy to be so wrapped up in winning that if you lose you don't derive any fun out of the activity, etc.

[Gary Gorski]

That is important because some kids do intend to injure and I agree that is wrong.

Which is why I say why even give a nine year old that option since you know that some of them are going to try to hurt the other kid and some of them even though they aren't trying to hurt them are not coordinated enough to "properly" give a hard foul and will end up injuring someone.

Also, you're right about what you get at 9 not meaning all that much. However, for the kids it does mean a lot. I have a 4 year old at home that only wants to win. When he was out at soccer practice he was concerned with whether or not he scored more goals than the other kids.

Trust me, I know kids want to win which is why I don't understand the sports leagues that don't keep score. The kids keep the score whether the coaches do or not and they know if they won or lost and I think that's good. My point is why do adults feel the need to interject themselves into it by doing things like calling for intentional walks in a game with nine year olds? If the kid thinks he needs to walk him to win then he's going to do it himself.

When I play games with him, I let him win some times, and make sure he loses sometimes so he has an even keel.

I think that's good - it doesn't do kids any favors if you let them win or let them think they won every time because eventually they meet someone who tells them they lost and they don't know how to handle it.

Plus, it isn't healthy to be so wrapped up in winning that if you lose you don't derive any fun out of the activity, etc.

I'll take it further - it isn't healthy to be so wrapped up in winning that if you WIN you don't derive any fun out of the activity. The pitcher crying and not trying out for the all-star game the next day because he didn't like what the coach made him do is the perfect example of this.

[heybrad]

Uh, uh. That wasn't my kid, that was ME...
Good story Jon. I appreciate the response.

[DanGarion]

My question, if this is not a competitive league then why are they having a championship game? If they are keeping score, keeping records, and holding playoffs, it's competitive, regardless of the age of the children. If the coach whos team was batting was concerned he should have not have had a weak batter hitting behind his best hitter.

[Abe Sargent]

The coach did the 100% correct thing. It's a CHAMPIONSHIP game. If it's non competitive, then you don't have a championship game.

If the goal is to have fun and not worry about the score, I'm good with that. Then you don't have playoffs, championships. . . you hand out trophies to every kid who played and you don't even bother keeping score. What's the point in scores afterall, it's all for fun anyway?

I don't believe the coach yelled across the field. (this would be an add on that I haven't seen in any published reports about the story)

Would the intentional walk have been brought up if the kid had slammed a double down the line? Would the kid who nailed all those threes in the basketball game have been such a special story if the opposing team had simply let him fire up shots without playing any defense?

Or how about this question:

If it was just your average uncoordinated, pathetic baseball player standing in the on deck circle, are we having this discussion? Or if it was an "average" kid standing in the on deck circle? Is it any less humiliating for you to strike out to end the championship game if you are just a pathetic athlete vs. you having a condition that prevents you from being good?

And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such? Or was he on the field because he loved the game and they were trying to give the kid as normal of an existence as possible?

I find it sad that the kid struck out. I find it even sadder that he's probably went through more in his 9 years than most of us will ever have to endure in our lives. I'm completely 100% awed by the fact this kid even set foot on the field.

But I'm not saddened that in a competitive, championship game, a coach made a decision to try to win the baseball game.



A very well written and argued post. I agree!

[BrianD]

I'll take it further - it isn't healthy to be so wrapped up in winning that if you WIN you don't derive any fun out of the activity. The pitcher crying and not trying out for the all-star game the next day because he didn't like what the coach made him do is the perfect example of this.

There is no way to know this, but I'd be curious to find out if the kid was crying because he had to pitch around the big kid, or if he was crying because he was arranging to pitch to the cancer-kid.

I can understand your desire to let the kids play the game out on their own. There is a fine line between preparing the kids to give them a chance to win, and taking it too seriously and taking all the fun away...

[DanGarion]

Did you steal this line from Marv Marinovich? :D
Gah, he's a moron, ruined his son...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Parents like you wreck sports for kids - what's wrong with just letting the kids play it out?

Because those things are part of "letting it play out". If you don't want them to happen, then keep your kids off the court/field and out of the fucking way. Or find a league that operates in a way that suits you. But to deny a team the use of legitimate strategies, which are pretty much the things that are being discussed at this point, is IMO a completely horseshit candyass way of watering down a sport past the point of being fun. And at the risk of repeating something that has already been mentioned, damned if I've ever seen anything competitive that wasn't more fun winning than losing.

And if you want to be really bluntly personal about it, based on the attitudes you express on this subject, I'd say it's more like parents like you that are wrecking kids period. I'd be more than happy to compare the outcomes of your kid(s) and mine 20 years down the road & see which approach produced better results.

They're freaking nine years old - let them have a few years of their life being able to play in games where it really doesn't matter if they win or lose since for the rest of their life it does.

They have those now -- they're called playground games, although typically the kids are just as competitive in those on their own, no adult involvement required. That's human nature. Meanwhile, to deny the importance of winning and losing in a competitive sport is just that: denial. And it borders on the absurd on the very face of it.

[BrianD]

There is a difference, though, between giving kids the tools to win and pushing them too hard to win. Helping kids learn strategy is good, but making the game too tactical and removing the fun flow might not do them any favors. Walking a single batter in a championship game isn't going to destroy the flow, but there is a line to eventually be crossed.

[Logan]

My question, if this is not a competitive league then why are they having a championship game? If they are keeping score, keeping records, and holding playoffs, it's competitive, regardless of the age of the children. If the coach whos team was batting was concerned he should have not have had a weak batter hitting behind his best hitter.

Hi, welcome to page 1 of this thread. :)

[Logan]

When I first read that article, I was split on how I felt. I understood the baseball strategy, but at the same time, felt bad for the kid.

Then I read about how this kid and his parents don't think it was a big deal.

Then I also realized that when I was picturing this championship game of 9 year olds, I had visions of kids wearing oversized jerseys down to their knees, hats pulled over their eyes, and occassionally hitting the ball and running to 3rd instead of 1st. That's when it popped into my head what my baseball games were actually like when I was 9. To say they were competitive is an understatement. And this was a normal, everybody plays Little League.

Also, when I was a camp counselor back in high school, we would play baseball with kids ranging anywhere from 6-10, and you can be damn sure all of them wanted to win every single day.

[Gary Gorski]

Because those things are part of "letting it play out". If you don't want them to happen, then keep your kids off the court/field and out of the fucking way.

I like how you talk about this but still refuse to answer my questions about putting yourself in that situation. Lets say your kid gets thrown at in a baseball game because he got a big hit or is crowding the plate. Are you going to walk over to the opposing coach and pitcher's father and congratulate them on teaching him how to brush a player back? My guess is that you'll be too wrapped up in a tirade of curse words to do that.

But to deny a team the use of legitimate strategies, which are pretty much the things that are being discussed at this point, is IMO a completely horseshit candyass way of watering down a sport past the point of being fun.

Doesn't sound like the winning pitcher had much fun if he didn't even want to tryout for the all-star team and like other posters said, getting walked on purpose isn't fun when kids at that age want to do nothing but get to bat.

And if you want to be really bluntly personal about it, based on the attitudes you express on this subject, I'd say it's more like parents like you that are wrecking kids period. I'd be more than happy to compare the outcomes of your kid(s) and mine 20 years down the road & see which approach produced better results.

Maybe you and I can just run a race instead? My kids will turn out fine and I hope yours do as well despite your way of looking at things in the world. I'd also say that based on your postings here and in other threads that more people would rather have me coach their children than you. Then again some people care more about their kids actually enjoying the things they do than whether or not they get a trophy that will collect dust for the rest of their life. All you care about is winning - you don't care how you get there just so long as you do. At the end of the day you want to go home and look in the mirror and imagine yourself as some important person - on the scale of the great baseball minds because you won a little league game.

I realize that its just not that important and what is important is that the kids enjoy playing the game and that they learn things about working hard, learning the fundamentals, being good teammates and doing the best they can. I want to win every game I coach but I would be embarrased to intentionally walk a nine year old. I would walk Albert Pujols if I was managing in the bigs and its the world series but I'm not going to walk a nine year old. Then again, I have the ability to look at the real world and realize its a nine year old at the plate and not Pujols.

Meanwhile, to deny the importance of winning and losing in a competitive sport is just that: denial. And it borders on the absurd on the very face of it.

Call it absurd if you want but I just don't think its that important if a nine year old wins a baseball game. Maybe your sons will have to deal with you going off on them when they step into the mini van after a t-ball defeat but mine won't. I'll teach my son the same things I teach my high school freshmen now - play hard, play your best and winning takes care of itself. Until its paying for your life whether that be to get a scholarship or to get to the pros or to stay in the pros winning doesn't really matter that much. It's always nicer to win but the world doesn't end when you don't - at least it hasn't so far. To deny young children the opportunity to play the game the way THEY want to play it is what is absurd. You need to step back and realize that your little league days are over. Coaching some nine year olds to a championship doesn't make you a great man or a great coach - it doesn't make you anything nor does going 0-20 make you a bad coach. It's not about you anymore - try to remember that if your son wants to play ball.

[TroyF]

Just curious. . . at what point did Jon ever insinuate his kid would have to be worried about getting in the minivan because he lost a game?

Do you honestly equate tyring to win a game anyway you can within the rules is the same as being a jack ass who berates your child when it doesn't work out and the kid actually loses?

Good lord.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I like how you talk about this but still refuse to answer my questions about putting yourself in that situation. Lets say your kid gets thrown at in a baseball game because he got a big hit or is crowding the plate. Are you going to walk over to the opposing coach and pitcher's father and congratulate them on teaching him how to brush a player back? My guess is that you'll be too wrapped up in a tirade of curse words to do that.

In most of the scenarios that have been in play in this discussion, you'd be dead fucking wrong. What part of "it's part of the game" do you have trouble understanding?

From age 4 to 13, I got knocked down, beaned, spiked, got cartwheeled & knocked out cold by our (eventual) starting FB because I was in the first base line. I also brushed back a few people (but only a few because I wasn't fully confident in my aim), took out quite a few middle infielders and at least two catchers. Guess what, we all lived, not even a hospital visit for any of us.
Guess what else? We all knew those things were part of the game we were playing. Apparently we were smarter as little kids than a lot of adults are today.

Now, onto some other more serious stuff.

Maybe your sons will have to deal with you going off on them when they step into the mini van after a t-ball defeat but mine won't.

Y'know, I've had about all the santicmonious bullshit from you I'm in the mood for.

Come walk behind me & watch me with my son motherfucker, then you talk about what I do or don't do. I've spent my time emphasizing that "if you did your best then that's all you can do." I've dried those tears, and I've sweated the sweat that goes with trying to help him improve, at HIS insistence, not mine. Frankly, I'd prefer he not play any team sports at all, given the state of corruption that runs rampant in a lot of them. And if you're any indication of the sort of candyasses hanging around ball fields today, either afraid to win or unwilling to make a full effort to do so, well I'm just thankful we've managed to avoid more of these so-called leagues than not.

The difference seems to be that I understand that "doing your best" isn't just showing up, it includes some elements of actually understanding the game you're playing. And the goal of any competitive game is winning. Period.
Anything else & you're just passing time as well as denying actual competitors who are stuck with your lackadasical approach a chance to compete without the handicap you present.

You need to step back and realize that your little league days are over. Coaching some nine year olds to a championship doesn't make you a great man or a great coach - it doesn't make you anything nor does going 0-20 make you a bad coach. It's not about you anymore - try to remember that if your son wants to play ball.

Gary, you're so far off base on this that it's hard to even get mad at you about it. Seriously, if you had any idea how far off you really are, it's comical. Still, your are most certainly sincerely invited, nay, even urged, to go fuck yourself.

But thanks for providing another great example of why the majority of game designers should stay the hell off the internet. It seems the primary ability of some is to drive customers away from the damned product.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just curious. . . at what point did Jon ever insinuate his kid would have to be worried about getting in the minivan because he lost a game?


Well, at least somebody else noticed some of the horseshit coming out of that motherfuckers keyboard.

[illinifan999]

Call it absurd if you want but I just don't think its that important if a nine year old wins a baseball game..

I was 9 years old a lot more recently than most people here and I can tell you that it is important to win a game at that age. I can recall every championship game I played in when I was younger. When I was 9 years old playing in our "rec league" they didn't keep scores, but at the end of the game each and every player on each team knew what the score was and who had won the game. Winning is very important at that age.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And on a more serious note, thanks a whole fucking lot Gary for being such a complete & utter idiot in this thread that you've managed to ruin one of the few games I even played on the PC anymore.

Thanks just fucking loads for that little "gift".

[Gary Gorski]

But thanks for providing another great example of why the majority of game designers should stay the hell off the internet. It seems the primary ability of some is to drive customers away from the damned product.

I was wondering how long it would be before you got around to that line. I forgot, I'm a game developer so that means I have no right to have an opinion on anything. If you think that you telling me that you won't buy my games because of my opinions is going to stop me from participating in discussions then you're dead wrong.

Y'know, I've had about all the santicmonious bullshit from you I'm in the mood for.

Wait, you tell me that basically your kids will be better than mine, tell me its people like me who wreck kids and drop a truckload of swear words at me and you say I'm the one giving you santicmonious bullshit? Okay

And on a more serious note, thanks a whole fucking lot Gary for being such a complete & utter idiot in this thread that you've managed to ruin one of the few games I even played on the PC anymore.

Thanks just fucking loads for that little "gift".

That's your choice. My opinions of what is important in youth sports or anything else have nothing to do with you playing any of my games unless you allow it to. I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong. That's life.

[Gary Gorski]

I was 9 years old a lot more recently than most people here and I can tell you that it is important to win a game at that age. I can recall every championship game I played in when I was younger. When I was 9 years old playing in our "rec league" they didn't keep scores, but at the end of the game each and every player on each team knew what the score was and who had won the game. Winning is very important at that age.

You need to reread my posts - I know how kids are and I said basically the same thing. Even when the adults don't keep score the kids do. I know that and I know that the kids want to win and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm 100% opposed to playing sports and NOT keeping score. There are winners and losers when you play a competitive sport and kids are never to young to learn to win or lose.

What I said was that I don't think its necessary for parents/coaches at that age level to get involved using "big league" strategies in an attempt to win games. To me, I'd never walk a 9 year old. If my pitcher decided on his own to do it because that's how he wants to win that's fine but if he wants to pitch and try to get the kid out that's fine too. I would put my best pitcher in and play players in the best positions to win the game and tell them to get every kid out they can but I don't think you need to do more than that at that age. If you think that makes me a bad person to manage little league then so be it. Winning is important but at 9 years old its not the only thing.

[WSUCougar]

Let's keep it civil from here on out or the thread gets locked.

[Scoobz0202]

Wow. This thread is sad in so many ways.

Let me say that I played competitive baseball from the time I was 7 (I always played up). My father coached me for about 50% of that time. Never, ever would he have done something like that at that age. He would've told the team point blank: "Guys, this is their best hitter. If we can't get him out in this situation we don't deserve to be champions." That's how you teach the game at that age.

I agree with this. I played Rec Little league 9 years ago ( 18 now ) and I can still remember that every year through Rec baseball there were a few kids that we always wondered what team they were on and when we faced them. And never once in my two years of Rec Little League do I ever remember seeing an Intentional Walk. Never. I know when I played baseball then, that was the best part. I pitched a little bit and I would have LOVED to have faced the best player on the other team. Smart baseball, no. I later learned to play smart baseball when I got in Junior High and High School and played for the school.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was wondering how long it would be before you got around to that line. I forgot, I'm a game developer so that means I have no right to have an opinion on anything. If you think that you telling me that you won't buy my games because of my opinions is going to stop me from participating in discussions then you're dead wrong.

Actually Gary, you've already got my money on the previous purchase, so I was pretty sure it matters naught to you at this point. And you're certainly free to have any wrongheaded opinion you desire, one purchase more or less doesn't matter.

The only reason I mentioned it was because I was sincerely disappointed to find out what an utter & complete jackass you are. Because now there's no way in hell I could play the game in the future without being reminded of that, and of being disgusted by your comments in this thread, and damned if I need any further aggravation generated by playing a freakin' game.

To be honest, I've ended up more pissed at you for fucking that up for me than what pissed me off originally. And the original was fairly far up the pissed off scale to begin with.

[Gary Gorski]

Actually Gary, you've already got my money on the previous purchase, so I was pretty sure it matters naught to you at this point.

Well when people do purchase games from me it is important to me that they are satisfied with the game. But if you're expecting me to blindly agree with anything you say or to not have an opinion at all because you might buy another game you're looking at the wrong guy. I just hope you and Jim, Arlie, Markus, Shaun and everyone else sees eye to eye with you or else you won't have many sports games left to play unless you're willing to play what EA passes off as a sports sim.

As for the rest of your post that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm not going to resort to returning a curse filled tirade at you or calling you names. I'm the kind of person who can have a disagreement with someone on an issue and realize at the end of the day everyone has their own take whether I agree with it or not. You obviously can't accept that and take it to the point that you can't play a game because of it - that's your hangup, not mine so don't try and pin that on me.

[Easy Mac]

I agree with this. I played Rec Little league 9 years ago ( 18 now ) and I can still remember that every year through Rec baseball there were a few kids that we always wondered what team they were on and when we faced them. And never once in my two years of Rec Little League do I ever remember seeing an Intentional Walk. Never. I know when I played baseball then, that was the best part. I pitched a little bit and I would have LOVED to have faced the best player on the other team. Smart baseball, no. I later learned to play smart baseball when I got in Junior High and High School and played for the school.

and other people learned to play smart baseball before you... what's your point? That you should be a certain age before you learn strategy. The point of most rec leagues (and I use rec in the terms of, only league in town, as the only league in town was the rec league for me) is for the kids to learn the game and have fun doing it, and for me the most fun was winning, not losing. Hell, I know when I was 9 years old, I used to hit the best player on purpose if I knew I wasn't getting him out. Hell, I used to hit my friends for the hell of it. And I also had the best hit home runs off me. And I had fun either way, cutting up with them after the game and at school. But I also knew that if I needed to walk a guy to win or let him hit me and lose, I'd walk him as much as possible.

I remember I struck out the best player in the league 3 times in 1 game. The 2nd best player was also on the team. He hit a home run in his first at bat, but they called it foul. He got on and didn't score, but coming off the field he said he'd hit one on the next pitch. I said sure he would. And so he comes up again, and he does. The last time up, I sure as hell walked him, no second thoughts. And we won the game. I think that was the only game that team lost all season. And the next season, with almost all the same players, we won the championship, and it was a hell of a lot more fun than the previous losing season. Would we have won without the walk, maybe, would we have won the next season without that confidence from the win? Maybe. But sometimes the stories aren't written until long after the talking heads stop writing about them.

[illinifan999]

What I said was that I don't think its necessary for parents/coaches at that age level to get involved using "big league" strategies in an attempt to win games. .

I do. When I was 10 or 11 it was pretty much a given if a faster kid got on base he'd be stealing 2nd on the first pitch and 3rd on the third pitch. The pitchers never figured out the slide step, and the catchers were never accurate enough to nail a kid. Then I got moved to catcher and one of those faster kids hit a double. Our coaches called timeout and told the pitcher to throw a pitch-out. Now at this point in time I had never heard of this strategy. The pitcher threw it and we nailed the kid at third. To me this is a "big league" strategy just as much as an intentional walk. Should the coaches not show kids legitimate ways to win games just because someone's feeling might be hurt?

[saldana]

I do. When I was 10 or 11 it was pretty much a given if a faster kid got on base he'd be stealing 2nd on the first pitch and 3rd on the third pitch. The pitchers never figured out the slide step, and the catchers were never accurate enough to nail a kid. Then I got moved to catcher and one of those faster kids hit a double. Our coaches called timeout and told the pitcher to throw a pitch-out. Now at this point in time I had never heard of this strategy. The pitcher threw it and we nailed the kid at third. To me this is a "big league" strategy just as much as an intentional walk. Should the coaches not show kids legitimate ways to win games just because someone's feeling might be hurt?


i dont feel like arguing about this any more, but here again is the same point that i started making about 100 posts ago and people keep ignoring....at 10 or 11, it is actually little league...trips to williamsport are one the line and all that..you have to try out for the team and get selected...its not an everyone gets to play league like this situation was...in league like this one, i just think it sportmanship and fun have a bigger place than winning at all cost. of course i liked winning more than losing, everyone does, but that shouldnt be the only thing at this level of play.

[WVUFAN]

Actually Gary, you've already got my money on the previous purchase, so I was pretty sure it matters naught to you at this point. And you're certainly free to have any wrongheaded opinion you desire, one purchase more or less doesn't matter.

The only reason I mentioned it was because I was sincerely disappointed to find out what an utter & complete jackass you are. Because now there's no way in hell I could play the game in the future without being reminded of that, and of being disgusted by your comments in this thread, and damned if I need any further aggravation generated by playing a freakin' game.

To be honest, I've ended up more pissed at you for fucking that up for me than what pissed me off originally. And the original was fairly far up the pissed off scale to begin with.
I usually agree with a great majority of what you say, Jon, but I have to say this is one of the more childish rants I've read in quite a while.

(shakes head)

[illinifan999]

i dont feel like arguing about this any more, but here again is the same point that i started making about 100 posts ago and people keep ignoring....at 10 or 11, it is actually little league...trips to williamsport are one the line and all that..you have to try out for the team and get selected...its not an everyone gets to play league like this situation was...in league like this one, i just think it sportmanship and fun have a bigger place than winning at all cost. of course i liked winning more than losing, everyone does, but that shouldnt be the only thing at this level of play.

It's 1 year difference. And this league was a "rec league". There was no shot at williamsport, there was no county tournament. This was a league for kids between 2 schools. But that doesn't really matter. What does matter is that this coach taught a kid a legitimate baseball strategy much like the coaches taught me one when I was at most 2 years older. I still don't get how intentionally walking someone is unsportsmanlike unless the coach did in fact yell across the diamond which I haven't heard from any other stories other than this blog. The kid has a disability so what. He joined the league, the coach put him behind the best hitter, why should he be treated any different than any other kid that is a weaker hitter following the best hitter? And winning isn't the only thing at this level of play. Coaches teach kids how to play the game. With instruction of how to hit, field, steal comes instruction of baseball strategy. To teach one part of the game and ignore the other is well dumb.

[SuperGrover]

Again, if this is a rec league-meaning no tryouts, everyone plays, that sort of deal-intentionally walking ANYONE at ANYTIME is total bullshit. I'm willing to bet 95% of my life savings that this was indeed a rec league by my definition (if not, how did a cancer survivor with very little strength make it on the team).

Again, the goal of rec is not to win, but to foster team spirit and teach the kids how to play. that's why everyone gets to play and generally everyone gets to bat-they're trying to teach fundamentals. If you win, great! If you lose, so what? I guarantee you that kids won't get down about it unless the coaches and parents foster that kind of attitude.

I'm not saying that we should rule out competition at a young age. Far from it. I feel most of my perserverence was learned through athletics. However, there is a time and a place for competition, and a 9 y.o. rec baseball league ain't it.

I really can't believe how many of you don't see the logic here. I guess you are the kind of people who got balls out in co-ed rec softball, breaking up double plays and plowing over females and such. You now, winning is "fun."

Maybe it's because I played sports at a fairly high level that I understand the difference between rec and competitive. I like winning and all, but I don't get too worked up when I lose in a co-ed rec league. If I really cared, I would practice and work on my skills. However, I don't, because that's not what the leage is for-is for having fun and hitting on the cute girls on either squad.

Whatever. I'm done with this argument. You guys are nuts.

[illinifan999]

I guarantee you that kids won't get down about it unless the coaches and parents foster that kind of attitude.


sorry, your gurantee is wrong. i was down about every loss even when we didn't keep score. and it wasn't because of pressure from my parents or coaches.

[SuperGrover]

OK. So, I'm not done.

The following are legitimate sports strategies:

Spiking an infielder
Taking out a double play
Purposesly throwing at the opposition
Tagging baserunners in the face
Talking smack to the batter as a catcher
Chop blocks
Going after injured players
Hack-a-shaq
Intentional Break Away fouls
"Taking out" the best scorer in hockey
Flops in soccer

This is a short list of "tactics" that are an integral part of all sports. Some are technically against the rules but considered part of the game (e.g., throwing at the opposition and flops in soccer). All of these are crucial parts of successful competitive teams. I was taught each and every one of these tactics related to football and baseball and some that crossed the line (my 7th grade football coach bought me a soda once for punching a player in a game). While all display poor sportsmanship, they are part of winning and something that all athletes have to deal with once they reach a certain level.

How many of you would want your 9 year-old being coached on these tactics? You can say that all of these are "dirty," but they are part of the game and happen every day at the high school and college level. So, if the coach is trying to win, would you want him teaching these strategies?

I'm just trying to decide where we draw the line for a 9 year-old rec league (again, no I'm assuming no try outs and everyone gets to play). Please enlighten me as to which of these I can use if I ever happen to coach kids who have yet to hit double digits in years on this Earth.

[SuperGrover]

sorry, your gurantee is wrong. i was down about every loss even when we didn't keep score. and it wasn't because of pressure from my parents or coaches.

Bullshit. That's all I'm saying. I've been witness to the reactions of a lot of kids (when I played and as the nephew of three who played traveling sports), and I RARELY see kids upset for more than 5 minutes unless the parents/coaches create an environment that fosters those kinds of feelings.

EDIT: I'm not saying YOUR experience is bullshit, just that it is common amongst 9 y.o.

[SuperGrover]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/index.html

Here's a link from S.I. Here is the pertinet info:

"This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate. On the other hand, the stands are packed and it is the title game."

So, this is definitely a rec league that parents are making out to be competitive. That, in itself, is the problem. If it's rec, then it's rec. If it's competitive, the have tryouts, get rid of the run rule, etc.

Also, there is a lot more info in the column (Dad certainly a little more pissed than initiall thought, sister crying, Yanks coach comparing him to a retarded child) so I encourage everyone to read. But please, for the love of God, do not use Rick Reily to bolster their argument. That's all I ask. Thanks.

[illinifan999]

It's a rec league with a championship game. That's plain and simple. If there's a championship game it's competitive. You cannot argue against that. Sure there are rules to get everyone in the game but the point is to win.

Read the kids quote in the last line of that article. Seems he's the only one that has it figured out while all the adults freak out over a non-story.

Again, where's the story about coaches giving steal signs on a catcher with a weaker arm? Why don't we hear about those assholes who make the catcher feel like a loser? I'm sure that Red Sox coach said at one point in that season, "ok this catcher has a weaker arm so we're gonna try to steal on him a little more."

And all the things you listed are dirty tactics. Sure I'd like the coach to tell my kid about them that way my kid would know when you turn a double play there are possible dangers. Comparing an intentional walk to spiking and infielder is absurd.

[TroyF]

One of the more idiotic posts I've ever seen, but lets play the game:

Spiking an infielder - Illegal to go up with spikes high and intentionally spike an infielder. Not only should it not be taught, it should be taught how bad it is to do it.

Taking out a double play - Perfectly legal and nothing wrong with a slide into 2B so long as it's a clean slide.

Purposesly throwing at the opposition - Illegal at any level of the game. Guys who do it get fined, suspended. Purposely throwing a brush back? I don't like it, but I don't have a problem if the pitcher is told to pitch inside even if a guy is crowding the plate. Being able to throw the inside pitch is critical at almost all levels. If the hitter has his elbow hanging over the inside portion of the plate, I'm certainly not going to tell my pitcher to pretend that portion of the plate doesn't exist.

Tagging baserunners in the face - Again, depending on how it's done, this is an illegal play. I'm going to teach the kids how to tag the right way and how to protect the baseball when doing it. Any "pro" who intentionally tags the face is a moron. I'm not sure I've seen a specific example on television at the college or pro level in a long, long time.

Talking smack to the batter as a catcher - Kids do indeed talk already. If you think nine year olds don't talk trash, you are a fool. Kids can in fact be some of the meanest little SOB's on the earth and can be downright cruel.

Chop blocks - If you are talking about the chop block from behind, it's illegal at every level. If you are talking the kind the Broncos, Falcons and Niners used to use, the blocks are done for short passes and because the size of the lines are smaller. If I had an offensive line that was really small, I'd certainly teach the cut block. (which is what the term is for the "legal" type of block those teams use. Chop block is the illegal block below the waist from behind.

Going after injured players - Going after how? If you are trying to insinuate you run after them to hurt the more, I think that's one we can leave for the older players. If you are talking about having my quickest basketball player drive on a kid who sprained his ankle, I'm going to do it everytime.

Hack-a-shaq - Been discussed. So long as you aren't talking about hurting the kid, there is nothing wrong with it. I can promise you the real Shaq dealt with the hack a shaq strategy from the second he laced up his sneakers.

Intentional Break Away fouls - Illegal, they now result in 2 shots + the ball. And if it is not only intentional, but flagrent, you are kicked out of the game and can be suspended.

"Taking out" the best scorer in hockey - If you are talking about trying to injure, illegal. If you are talking about making the best scorers life a living hell by giving him clean hits and having a ton of guys around him all the time? Damn straight they should learn that.

Flops in soccer - Sadly it goes on to much, but the flop is an illegal play. It's just an illegal play that doesn't get caught as much as it should.


I understand taht in all of your examples, the line between legal and illegal can be skewed at a pro level. You should certainly never teach a kid at a young level to break the rules. Comaparing your strategies to an intentional walk, which is a normal part of the game is asinine.

[TroyF]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/index.html

Here's a link from S.I. Here is the pertinet info:

"This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate. On the other hand, the stands are packed and it is the title game."

So, this is definitely a rec league that parents are making out to be competitive. That, in itself, is the problem. If it's rec, then it's rec. If it's competitive, the have tryouts, get rid of the run rule, etc.

Also, there is a lot more info in the column (Dad certainly a little more pissed than initiall thought, sister crying, Yanks coach comparing him to a retarded child) so I encourage everyone to read. But please, for the love of God, do not use Rick Reily to bolster their argument. That's all I ask. Thanks.

1) We've discussed this before. The rules may say "rec league" the game is still defined as a championship game. That's competitive. Period.

2) Rick Reily is a garbage reporter who makes stories out to be bigger than what they are. He also doesn't bother with facts half the time. The fact you say "don't use him to bolster your arguement" means you clearly understand this fact. He's an idiot.

[watravaler]

My teammates all wanted to win more than anything at age 10. We had fun because our team played baseball the right way and thus we would win. Losing isn't fun. The coach should have told the catcher to move a foot outside, but then again, the coach didn't have to tell us to pitch around Babe Ruth to face Ozzie Guillen.

[Scarecrow]

...This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate...

Just to toss out something not worthwhile or contraversial, but I believe these are that standard ABA rules for a 10 & Under league. I have a daughter that plays 10 & Under Softball, and the ASA rules are about the same - only their's is a 5 run per inning max.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just to toss out something not worthwhile or contraversial, but I believe these are that standard ABA rules for a 10 & Under league. I have a daughter that plays 10 & Under Softball, and the ASA rules are about the same - only their's is a 5 run per inning max.

I thought those sounded familiar, I suspect the ASA similarity is why I thought I had seen them before. Interesting to know that this is/is close to the ABA rules, because I've never actually been involved with/followed a league that used this particular set of rules, meaning that they're all either not following the ABA rules or work from a totally different base altogether.

[saldana]

Just to toss out something not worthwhile or contraversial, but I believe these are that standard ABA rules for a 10 & Under league. I have a daughter that plays 10 & Under Softball, and the ASA rules are about the same - only their's is a 5 run per inning max.


serious question, what does that ruleset provide for setting a batting order...can the coaches do it how they please for strategic/protective purposes, is it supposed to be different everytime, or is it not addressed at all?

[Scarecrow]

serious question, what does that ruleset provide for setting a batting order...can the coaches do it how they please for strategic/protective purposes, is it supposed to be different everytime, or is it not addressed at all?

Again, I'm not sure exactly the ABA rules - I know they differ from the ASA in regards to # of innings a pitcher can pitch per game/week, so they may have rules I don't know about. But in general there are no specific rules; you just submit a lineup with all players on it in a specific batting order. For instance, if your team has 12 players for a game, you list all 12 players in a batting order and that's how they bat throughout the game. My daughter's team used the same batting order each and every game.

[saldana]

video story from the front page of cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/video/sports/2006/08/11/little.league.controversy.affl/content.html#

the father is not nearly as OK with this as has been portrayed, at least that was my opinion based on his statements.

[Eaglesfan27]

Why the hell is the cancer survivor the protection for the team's best hitter?

Yelling across the diamond is bad. But you absolutely pitch around the team's best hitter. I think you are teaching a poor lesson if you don't.

I'm very late to this discussion, but this was the first question I had as well.

Maybe as I go through the rest of the thread, these questions will be cleared up, but:

Is the league a competitive league or not? Do they keep score? Do they have a championship game? If the answer is yes to both of those last questions, then I think it is a competitive league and you have to pitch around the best hitter. Of course, in that case the best hitter shouldn't be protected by presumably the weakest hitter (from the description of his swing.) You certainly don't need to yell across the diamond and embarass the other young kid. However, if there is no championship game, then I think that line is a bit more fuzzy.

[Eaglesfan27]

if that is the way the league is structured, and you know that when you put your kid in it, that is different IMO, but this was supposed to be a learning league....the coaches arent even allowed to structure their batting orders, which i guess is why the worst player followed the best player in this instance.

Ahh, if that is true, this is a wierd quasi competitive league. If the coach had no say over his own batting order, I agree that it was very poor form for the opposing coach to walk the best hitter to get to the worst hitter. Also, (maybe this will be answered as I continue to read) but how many runs was the winning team up by?

[saldana]

1, the tying run was on 3rd

[SuperGrover]

I understand taht in all of your examples, the line between legal and illegal can be skewed at a pro level. You should certainly never teach a kid at a young level to break the rules. Comaparing your strategies to an intentional walk, which is a normal part of the game is asinine.

I was going to reply to eah of your responses, but I lost the post and don't feel like re-typing. Let me say the following:

1. Everything I mentioned above ar enormal parts of the game. The may be outside the rulebook, but a ton of things are outside the rulebook but still part of the game.
2. IBBs at 9 year-old level are not part of the game. I've read on other sites that the umpoires doing the game had never seen one all season. So, they did something special for this one time. That is the entireity of my argument.
3. Why shouldn't you teach a young player to break the rules? They need to learn strategy. They need to learn how to win. Everything I listed is part of winning sports, although some are cheap and dirty. However, some of the best players in history (Bob Gibson, Karl Malone, Dick Butkus) were cheap and dirty. That's part of what made them so successful.

[BrianD]

I was going to reply to eah of your responses, but I lost the post and don't feel like re-typing. Let me say the following:

1. Everything I mentioned above ar enormal parts of the game. The may be outside the rulebook, but a ton of things are outside the rulebook but still part of the game.

Nobody is advocating teaching everything that is a normal part of the game. people are advocating teaching everything that is within the rules. Big difference.


2. IBBs at 9 year-old level are not part of the game. I've read on other sites that the umpoires doing the game had never seen one all season. So, they did something special for this one time. That is the entireity of my argument.


A championship game is special. The kids had a season's worth of practices and games. Why not put a little more into the championship?


3. Why shouldn't you teach a young player to break the rules? They need to learn strategy. They need to learn how to win. Everything I listed is part of winning sports, although some are cheap and dirty. However, some of the best players in history (Bob Gibson, Karl Malone, Dick Butkus) were cheap and dirty. That's part of what made them so successful.

Teaching to break the rules and teaching strategy are two completely different things. To argue that by doing one you'd have to be willing to do the other is just silly.

[TroyF]

I understand taht in all of your examples, the line between legal and illegal can be skewed at a pro level. You should certainly never teach a kid at a young level to break the rules. Comaparing your strategies to an intentional walk, which is a normal part of the game is asinine.

I was going to reply to eah of your responses, but I lost the post and don't feel like re-typing. Let me say the following:

1. Everything I mentioned above ar enormal parts of the game. The may be outside the rulebook, but a ton of things are outside the rulebook but still part of the game.
2. IBBs at 9 year-old level are not part of the game. I've read on other sites that the umpoires doing the game had never seen one all season. So, they did something special for this one time. That is the entireity of my argument.
3. Why shouldn't you teach a young player to break the rules? They need to learn strategy. They need to learn how to win. Everything I listed is part of winning sports, although some are cheap and dirty. However, some of the best players in history (Bob Gibson, Karl Malone, Dick Butkus) were cheap and dirty. That's part of what made them so successful.

1) BS. 100% BS. Not everything you mentioned is normal strategy. A chop block is NOT a normal strategy for any team. Just an example, an intentional breakaway foul is not something that's taught by any team. Are there psychos who do comit flagrant fouls? Hell yes. But the rules make it incredibly painful for your team to do it. Instead of giving up 2 points, you give up two foul shots + the basketball + you can get ejected from the game. That isn't normal strategy. There are SOME of the things you mentioned that are normal strategy. Some of those things (flopping in soccer) are done frequently. Others (tagging guys in the face) are done so infrequently they aren't even worth mentioning.

2) I'm fairly certain those umps didn't ump every game in the league. Unless there is a credible source that says there were none, I don't buy it. Intentional walks were certainly part of the game when I was 9. From the sounds of the posts here, I don't think I'm alone.

3) If you can't undertand the difference between trying to win within the rules and teaching gets how to be cheap shot artists, I think you need mental help. I'm not kidding. You are seriously trying to equate an intentional walk with teaching a kid how to injure another player? You are doing on another level what Gary did earlier in the thread.

You are trying to show how those of us who had no issues with the walk are mean spirited bastards who don't care about the kids or their welfare. Because we feel the walk is ok, we also mentally abuse our children when they get in the car after a loss and we'll teach the kid that winning at all costs is the right thing to do. Hell, we'll roid the 9 year olds up if it means a title.

The point is so asinine and idiotic I don't know why I responded to be honest. I guess there is an asinine and idiotic side to me as well.

[saldana]

TAKE THE FALL!
ACT HURT!
GET INDIGNANT!

TAKE THE FALL!
ACT HURT!
GET INDIGNANT!

(part of the game, so is this ok?)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I've learned a few things in this thread but probably the most important is that while I could never agree with JIMG on anything (especially political), I at least thought he had some intelligence. I wasn't aware he is a complete jackass who has to resort to profanity (and refusing to buy a computer sim in the midst of a debate on a completely unrelated issue) to make a point.

I fully expect his response to my post will be "go f^%ck yourself."

[lynchjm24]

and led the league in steals for three straight seasons at age 7, 8, and 9...

Now there has been a lot of nonsense in this thread, but who the fuck would keep track of leaguewide stolen bases in a 7 year old league. How the fuck would a 7 year old catcher ever throw out a basestealer anyway?

[lynchjm24]

The whole thing is bush. If it's me, even if the next kid is healthy and just can't hit I'm not ordering an intentional walk. If the pitcher does it on his own, that's his business - but I'd probably go out there and tell him to challenge the hitter - because pussies intentionally walk 9 year old hitters.

I mean who acts like this as an adult. If you play golf or hoops with a group of friends do you cry if someone beats you still or did you outgrow that? If you get beat on a 30 foot putt for $20, do you have sob and pout the entire day?

Reading this thread has caused me to dread the upcoming football season. The pyschopaths that run midget football leagues make my stomach churn and spending most of my Sundays with them almost makes me long for Monday, where at least we adults compete without so much whining and can handle winning or losing.

[saldana]

The pyschopaths that run midget football leagues make my stomach churn

#1 reason i am glad i have girls.

[TroyF]

The whole thing is bush. If it's me, even if the next kid is healthy and just can't hit I'm not ordering an intentional walk. If the pitcher does it on his own, that's his business - but I'd probably go out there and tell him to challenge the hitter - because pussies intentionally walk 9 year old hitters.

I mean who acts like this as an adult. If you play golf or hoops with a group of friends do you cry if someone beats you still or did you outgrow that? If you get beat on a 30 foot putt for $20, do you have sob and pout the entire day?

Reading this thread has caused me to dread the upcoming football season. The pyschopaths that run midget football leagues make my stomach churn and spending most of my Sundays with them almost makes me long for Monday, where at least we adults compete without so much whining and can handle winning or losing.

I love how on one hand, you talk about the fragile mental makeup of youth and how "phycho" football midget coaches are horrible.

And yet at the start you make the statement that you'd tell the kid to pitch to a nine year old because anyone who doesn't do that is a pussy.

Yeah, you're the guy I want coaching my kids.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Now there has been a lot of nonsense in this thread, but who the fuck would keep track of leaguewide stolen bases in a 7 year old league. How the fuck would a 7 year old catcher ever throw out a basestealer anyway?

If I knew where the box was that had all the info, I could give you my entire statistical record from every season I ever played, including several years worth of stats for my entire team and an assortment of stats from the entire 4 to 6 team league. I learned to keep a baseball scorebook around age 4, starting a lifelong love of statistics of all sorts.

As for CS, it wasn't a frequent occurence, largely because a lot of kids were either too lazy or too stupid to advance on anything other than a passed ball, whereas the league rules specifically allowed a runner to advance once the ball had crossed home plate (which is what I took advantage of). But there were occasional runners thrown out, most often from getting a really lousy jump. Only time I ever got caught was on the only pitchout I recall seeing under 12 years old... best team in the league, with the only catcher who had a decent arm in the whole league, and after two years of seeing me go from 1st to 3rd they were smart enough to call it.

[lynchjm24]

I love how on one hand, you talk about the fragile mental makeup of youth and how "phycho" football midget coaches are horrible.

And yet at the start you make the statement that you'd tell the kid to pitch to a nine year old because anyone who doesn't do that is a pussy.

Yeah, you're the guy I want coaching my kids.

I was talking about the coach being a pussy, not the pitcher. I would encourage a young pitcher to challenge the good hitter. That is what coaches taught me, and that is what I would try to teach a 9 year old that played for me.

[lynchjm24]

I love how on one hand, you talk about the fragile mental makeup of youth and how "phycho" football midget coaches are horrible.

Yeah, you're the guy I want coaching my kids.

Well you might want to reread my post, I didn't say anything about the fragile mental makeup of the players in midget football. I just said that a good number of the people who coach are psychopaths. Since I broke up a fight last season at midfield between coaching staffs in a game between 2 teams from the most affulent suburb of Hartford, I think it's safe to say that these men aren't in any mental shape to be working with children. I'm sure I could tell the story both ways and plenty of people on this board would agree with both sides:

Side A: Doesn't matter that we were up 40-0, we've got to keep running our offense, if that includes throwing downfield with 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter so be it.

Side B: You are running up the score against us even after we have put in our second defense, by throwing downfield up 40-0 with 2 minutes left. We are going to voice our displeasure after the game in the handshake line because that's the wrong thing to do and we are going to let you know.

I don't think this damages the kids in anyway, I just think it makes it not fun to play and discourages some kids from playing. These kids all go to the same schools and are friends with the other team, it's no fun to be on either end of that situation. I think it's good for 10-11 year old kids to get that experience, and certainly encouraging kids to be active is important even if they aren't helping you win games.

I'm not stupid, I remember being 10 or 11 and treating each game as life or death. I think it's fine for kids to do that; one of my best childhood memories is an opening day 1 hit shutout where I struck out 15 of 18, walked none and didn't allow a ball hit out of the infield. I like telling stories about playing Little League with someone who won a World Series ring and I like talking about snapping the football to a guy who spent time as a QB in the NFL. I knew my OBP/SLG when I was 14 and playing freshman baseball. I have no problem with kids playing for blood in any league, I just think it's stupid for the parents/coaches to give a shit who wins, to have that emotional desire is a little pathetic - they should really be trying to achieve something different then a high winning percentage.

Clearly, for a coach you'd rather have Jon. At this point most of his posts are his bragging about his stealing prowess at age 7. You'll have to excuse me if I question the mental well-being of both of you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just think it's stupid for the parents/coaches to give a shit who wins, ... You'll have to excuse me if I question the mental well-being of both of you.

Since I find your attitude about it virtually incomprehensible, that latter bit seems reasonably fair to me.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

For what it's worth, the unscientific poll at si.com has it running 60/40 in favor of pitching to the slugger. What is shocking is that 40% actually thought the coach's actions were correct. Apparently, JIMG has his supporters.

Thinking back to when I was 9 (very difficult admittedly) after winning the game, I think I would be walking in from the field not thinking about winning the game, but instead thinking about what a dick my coach was; which was probably exactly what the pitcher was thinking. Now that truly was robbing the kids of the chance of winning in incredible fashion -- with the slugger going down at the plate. Now that truly would have been a great lesson to learn. I stand by the adage that at least at AGE 9 IN A REC LEAGUE, it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

For what it's worth, the unscientific poll at si.com has it running 60/40 in favor of pitching to the slugger. What is shocking is that 40% actually thought the coach's actions were correct. Apparently, JIMG has his supporters.

Consider this: That's 40% of just those geeky enough to answer a poll at si.com

Take that poll out in the real world at large, at the ball fields across America lets say, and I guarantee you'd see over 50% support for my position.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

So, I was doing the laundry tonight when this thought occurred to me. And I think it pretty much shoots a hole in the JIMG's position (and those who share it with him) that you ought to teach proper baseball even to 9 year olds (even though you would never have a cancer survivor who can't hit playing in a competitive league). In "competitive" baseball, you would be allowed to put in a pinch hitter. Thus, you have it within the rules of the game to counter the intentional walk strategy (admittedly if forced to do this in a non competitive league, you would certainly not help the psyche of the cancer survivor by pinch hitting for him). However, since this rec league requires everyone to bat (and thus no pinch hitting), I would say the decision to walk the slugger was essentially cheating (if not a violation of the rules, then certainly the spirit of the rules). For me, if the incorrectness of JIMG's position was clear before, it certainly is now after I did the laundry.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well crap, I had a long post with a bunch of links & somehow managed to lose it without posting it. Grr. Lemme try this again.

1) Found a column from Salt Lake City (http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_4154850) on this subject, noticed several interesting things in it.
First, this snippet
Yankees coaches huddled and decided to do something they hadn't done all season: They told their pitcher to intentionally walk a hitter. An absolute anomaly in a low-key recreational league in which regular-season games were governed by competitive limitations, such as a maximum of four runs allowed in an inning. Those limits had been suspended for the championship game.

Also interesting was how this writer referred to the game as "Mustang League". Now I have absolutely no idea whether this is more accurate any of the various "little league", "rec league", "rec little league", "Little League" references that have been used by other columnists, but "Mustang League" is the name used by the 9-10 division of the PONY League organization.

Although it is not uncommon for local rules to be added to the "official" rules, I thought it would be interesting to see what the Pony/Mustang rule book (http://www.pony.org/files/home/52977%20Boys%20R&R%20book.pdf) says on some of this.

Interesting reading in Section 9, which governs the rules of play.
You can get the specifics if you want to read them for yourself, but here's the basics that relate to this story --
Standard Major League Baseball rules apply except as noted for each age group. ... There is no participation requirement at all at the 9-10 year old level, only a "recommendation" that everyone play at least two innings. ... No restrictions concerning batting orders or anything of that nature ... fairly typical for this age level, a "can leave & re-enter one time" rules governing their substitutions. (in other words, pinch-hitters definitely exist & are accounted for) ... 10 run mercy rule after 4 innings, I saw no mention of any per-inning scoring limit.

Again, let me be the first to say I have no idea whether this was really a Mustang League or not, nor what local adjustments (such as the run limits)
had been made. But if the SLC writer got the league affiliation correct, this brings up some things that don't really gibe with the various accounts.

Meanwhile, I thought a closer look at the local newspaper (http://www.clippertoday.com) where the first column appeared might be interesting. And indeed it was. Among other things:
-- does it strike anyone else a little odd that there doesn't seem to be any mention of this league or tournament except an article about the opening round (http://www.clippertoday.com/link.asp?smenu=4&twindow=Default&sdetail=15455&mad=No&wpage=2&skeyword=baseball&sidate=), full of praise for the Red Sox (aka the eventual losers) and their growth throughout the season. An article that mentions the unbeaten league favorites much like an afterthought. A straight sports section article written, coincidentally, by the columnist who then ends up with almost certainly more readers than he's ever had in his life with his controversy sparking column (a column that has been given its own special link on the main page of the website, presumably to make sure that no one could possibly miss it)

Now maybe I've just been in too many small towns, and around too many small town newspapers, but reading that pre-controversy article, it's not hard to get the impression that he might possibly have some connection to the Red Sox (player, coach, something). Why else make the #3 seed the focus of an article and relegate the unbeaten team to an oh-by-the-way mention at the end? Oh, and it's kind of interesting that the only players mentioned by name in the entire article are the one that would eventually get the fatefull IBB, and the kid who he plunked in the head while pitching in the opening round game. (They actually managed to get a snapshot of the ball bouncing off the batter's helmet, which is kind of amazing if you think about it, given the number of pitches in a game)

-- Also interesting that 2 of the first 3 responses from readers to the column when it ran initially some six weeks ago praised the winning coaches for playing the game properly while criticizing the losing coach for his tantrum after the game. The third response, btw, was written by a kid who described himself as a friend of the guy who got the IBB. The more critical letters don't seem to start coming in until this story had been poked & prodded for a while.

-- Meanwhile, here's the article from February (http://www.clippertoday.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=4&twindow=Default&mad=No&sdetail=13160&wpage=1&skeyword=Romney&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1005&hn=clippertoday&he=.com) detailing Romney Oaks trip to meet President Bush, courtesy of the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

-- An interesting line in that article by the way, mentioning that "While Romney still has to take medication and be careful while playing, he does the same things most boys do.". Very similar to a phrase that I can't believe I initially overlooked in the original article but that now seem rather out of place given the way the writer chose to spin the rest of his diatribe:
" Romney can not only walk, but can run and play at a level comparable to his peers.

[lynchjm24]

Well crap, I had a long post with a bunch of links & somehow managed to lose it without posting it. Grr. Lemme try this again.

1) Found a column from Salt Lake City (http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_4154850) on this subject, noticed several interesting things in it.
First, this snippet
Yankees coaches huddled and decided to do something they hadn't done all season: They told their pitcher to intentionally walk a hitter. An absolute anomaly in a low-key recreational league in which regular-season games were governed by competitive limitations, such as a maximum of four runs allowed in an inning. Those limits had been suspended for the championship game.
[/B][/I]

It really doesn't matter what the rules are. An adult calling for an intentional walk against a 9 year old is faggoty. I know you think that you were mentally superior to your peers at age 7 because you stole a bushel of bases, most likely you were the only one who gave a shit how many bases were stolen; that is why it ended as soon as everyone else's competitive nature caught up to yours.

You left out the funniest part of this whole thing. The coach who called for the IBB tried to claim he didn't know the kid had cancer - even after he coached him in basketball. If that doesn't tell you what an assclown this guy is, nothing does.

[Joe]

why was the worst hitter in the line-up directly behind the best hitter? that is not good strategy.

[Arctus]

The coach who called for the IBB tried to claim he didn't know the kid had cancer - even after he coached him in basketball. If that doesn't tell you what an assclown this guy is, nothing does.

I think this quote speaks volumes about this man's character

Still, Farley says had he known Romney's health history, he would have rearranged his strategy at game's end.
"I would have told our pitcher to go ahead and pitch to their best hitter, but to give every pitch everything he had, and not worry about walking him," the says. "I would have tried to save Romney's feelings."

So I'm supposed to believe the following about Bob Farley, Coaching Genius:

1. He had no clue that the kid had cancer. Not only did he coach the kid in basketball, the kid had a shunt installed in his head.

2. That if only someone clued him in about the kid with cancer on the on deck circle, he would have made sure to give his pitcher specific verbal instruction to not walk he other team's best hitter (and none of this would have ever happened, because win or lose Bob Farley, Coaching Genius, is a really good guy who would never take advantage of a kid that had cancer).

I don't know what type of coaching behavior is appropriate for a rec league (or Mustang League, or whatever).

I do know that Bob Farley, Coaching Genius is a lying shitbag.

[TroyF]

Clearly, for a coach you'd rather have Jon. At this point most of his posts are his bragging about his stealing prowess at age 7. You'll have to excuse me if I question the mental well-being of both of you.


Yeah, please include the youth counselor on this board, the parent who had a kid with downs syndrome who I heard call in to a talk show yesterday, and countless others who think the walk was ok. Clearly, we have large mental defects and we are mean spirited, evil individuals who shouldn't be allowed within two thousand miles of children.

We are cold hearted, mentally challenged people. I get it. That's how it gets spun. Because we are for the walk, we need mental help and are just flat out evil. Gary tried to do that with the yelling at the kids in the minivan after a loss thing.

In this day and age, I'm never surprised when people can't/don't even bother reading the other sides reasoning. I'm not surprised when people use their reasoning for painting how they are as people because of the mischaracterization off of the first point. But you and Gary are doing a better job than I've seen in awhile. You side over here at point A, I side over here at point B, so clearly I'm the second coming of Adolph Hitler and you should be Pope.

You, Gary and the guy who talked about how injuring another player should be taught because we were OK with the walk have all done it. I think that tactic is pathetic and shows just how weak your position is.

Oh, and of course all youth football coaches get into fights at midfield, right?

[TroyF]

Arctus,

Clearly, he's lying and that's a shame.

I have no doubt he knew the kid had cancer. Then again, I also have no doubt that the reporters are making the kid with cancer to be far worse of a condition than what he really had.

The article mentions him being able to do what other boys his age do and he was playing CF. If he was in as bad of shape the papers were making it out, he'd have either been in RF or DH'ing. Clearly he could run well (which is where maybe Jon's bunt teaching technique may have come in handy).

Still, it's pathetic the coach is making statements like that. Make your decisions, back up your reasons, apologize if you hurt anyones feelings and move one. There is no need to try to lie to justify what you've done.

[lynchjm24]

Yeah, please include the youth counselor on this board, the parent who had a kid with downs syndrome who I heard call in to a talk show yesterday, and countless others who think the walk was ok. Clearly, we have large mental defects and we are mean spirited, evil individuals who shouldn't be allowed within two thousand miles of children.

We are cold hearted, mentally challenged people. I get it. That's how it gets spun. Because we are for the walk, we need mental help and are just flat out evil. Gary tried to do that with the yelling at the kids in the minivan after a loss thing.

In this day and age, I'm never surprised when people can't/don't even bother reading the other sides reasoning. I'm not surprised when people use their reasoning for painting how they are as people because of the mischaracterization off of the first point. But you and Gary are doing a better job than I've seen in awhile. You side over here at point A, I side over here at point B, so clearly I'm the second coming of Adolph Hitler and you should be Pope.

You, Gary and the guy who talked about how injuring another player should be taught because we were OK with the walk have all done it. I think that tactic is pathetic and shows just how weak your position is.

Oh, and of course all youth football coaches get into fights at midfield, right?

Yes, I've certainly compared you to Adolph Hitler and myself to the Pope. I'm the one misrepresenting people's opinions.

I also said that all youth football coaches get into fights. I think I must have put that in bold when I related one of the myriad of reasons why the midget football leagues I officiate are run by morons. I could tie up plenty of bandwidth with dozens of stories about those fools.

Certainly youth sports are very healthy right now. States aren't considering legistlation to increase the penalties against parents and coaches that assault officials and referees. Some towns and leagues haven't moved towards banning parents from even watching the games. None of that has happened.

If you guys think the right lesson for 9 year olds is that they should avoid the good hitter to pitch to a weaker hitter when in reality nothing is on the line then that is fine. I think the right lesson is to teach the pitcher to go after the hitter and regardless of the outcome there will be something to learn. The fact that the pitcher doesn't want to play anymore tells me something, it doesn't seem to enter into the equation for you and Jon. I'm sure it's just another kid that Jon's kids will be ahead of someday.

The guy who was willing to do this has proven himself to be a complete scumbag, so I'm glad that I don't share some values with him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The fact that the pitcher doesn't want to play anymore tells me something,

Well, at least we agree on something.

It tells me this pitcher isn't the sort I would have wanted on my team anyway. Apparently he lacked the mental & emotional requirements for competition,so I'm not really planning to do much worrying over whether he plays again tomorrow, next month, or the twelveth of never.

[TroyF]

If you guys think the right lesson for 9 year olds is that they should avoid the good hitter to pitch to a weaker hitter when in reality nothing is on the line then that is fine. I think the right lesson is to teach the pitcher to go after the hitter and regardless of the outcome there will be something to learn. The fact that the pitcher doesn't want to play anymore tells me something, it doesn't seem to enter into the equation for you and Jon. I'm sure it's just another kid that Jon's kids will be ahead of someday.

For the first part of your quote, that's all you ever had to say. Difference of opinion, that's fine. I can live with that. Telling me I have mental issues because I don't side with YOUR version of it? Or Gary insinuating that Jon's kids would have to endure mental abuse because of a loss? Or the insinuation that because I'd have the kid walk I'd also teach my kids how to injure others? That's pathetic. Period.

As for the last quote. . . this is what drives me insane about the media and about how people react to things.

Have you talked to this kid? Do you KNOW this kid? What was he like before this incident? Did he like baseball or was basketball his first love? Would the All-Star league have meant he would miss out on a camping trip with his friends at the end of the year?

Or did he quite simply because of this one incident?

Or did he quit at all? I've seen people say he quit, but nothing in the Reilly story, nothing from Jon's articles above, nothing from my local paper has that tidbit in there. Not a one that I've searched for.

For others out there, if you have a link, please PM it to me. This one if for lynch. Do you have a link with the story? Or are you going by what someone in this thread said?

If the kid truly decided he didn't want to try out for the all star team because of that one incident, it sucks. But I think he'll get over it. I don't think this one incident is going to push the kid away from sports, or even baseball his entire life. Hell, I really don't believe this incident was the thing that did it anyway. But if someone can show me an article of how wrong I am, I'll look at it.

[lynchjm24]

If you guys think the right lesson for 9 year olds is that they should avoid the good hitter to pitch to a weaker hitter when in reality nothing is on the line then that is fine. I think the right lesson is to teach the pitcher to go after the hitter and regardless of the outcome there will be something to learn. The fact that the pitcher doesn't want to play anymore tells me something, it doesn't seem to enter into the equation for you and Jon. I'm sure it's just another kid that Jon's kids will be ahead of someday.

Telling me I have mental issues because I don't side with YOUR version of it? Or Gary insinuating that Jon's kids would have to endure mental abuse because of a loss? Or the insinuation that because I'd have the kid walk I'd also teach my kids how to injure others? That's pathetic. Period.

Have you talked to this kid? Do you KNOW this kid? What was he like before this incident? Did he like baseball or was basketball his first love? Would the All-Star league have meant he would miss out on a camping trip with his friends at the end of the year?

Or did he quite simply because of this one incident?

Or did he quit at all? I've seen people say he quit, but nothing in the Reilly story, nothing from Jon's articles above, nothing from my local paper has that tidbit in there. Not a one that I've searched for.

For others out there, if you have a link, please PM it to me. This one if for lynch. Do you have a link with the story? Or are you going by what someone in this thread said?

If the kid truly decided he didn't want to try out for the all star team because of that one incident, it sucks. But I think he'll get over it. I don't think this one incident is going to push the kid away from sports, or even baseball his entire life. Hell, I really don't believe this incident was the thing that did it anyway. But if someone can show me an article of how wrong I am, I'll look at it.

Of course I don't have any inside information and I am formulating my opinion on only what I've read here. Even if the kid didn't quit, I still think it's bush and faggoty for an adult.

I also never said you had mental issues because you didn't side with me. I said that if you'd rather have Jon coach your team after the hundreds of crazy posts he's made on this board and on this subject then I question it. I don't care if you side with me or not, I'm not even trying to change your mind. I just can't see how a reasonable person could take the sum of Jon's points of view and then think they would want him to coach their kid.

I've never been involved with any of the nonsensical basketball conversation in this thread, and since you've spent so much time misrepresenting what I've said I guess I don't understand why you are upset that you feel others have misrepresented what you said.

[TroyF]

Of course I don't have any inside information and I am formulating my opinion on only what I've read here. Even if the kid didn't quit, I still think it's bush and faggoty for an adult.

I also never said you had mental issues because you didn't side with me. I said that if you'd rather have Jon coach your team after the hundreds of crazy posts he's made on this board and on this subject then I question it. I don't care if you side with me or not, I'm not even trying to change your mind. I just can't see how a reasonable person could take the sum of Jon's points of view and then think they would want him to coach their kid.

I've never been involved with any of the nonsensical basketball conversation in this thread, and since you've spent so much time misrepresenting what I've said I guess I don't understand why you are upset that you feel others have misrepresented what you said.


Ummm, yeah. Unless you've been reading another thread, you realize that I AGREE with what jon has said in this. Not only that, his story of coaching youth sports (with the example of the bunt given, the time he spent individually with the kid, etc.) is something I think is not only fine for a kid, but needed.

I'm not sure what craziness Jon has stated in this thread. (outside of the profanity laced tirade at the game developer who essentially told jon he was being mentally abusive to his kids, that set me off too, I just didn't react the same way) He's stated he believes you try to win in a competition. I agree with that.

But I love the fact that you used what you read here, without any truly factual information to make the statement that says "the fact the kid who pitched didn't try out for the all-star team tells me something, it doesn't seem to come into play for you and Jon"

Well, yes, you are 100% correct it doesn't come into play. Why should it? Because someone said he did?

I'll say it one more time: The nine year old in this story gets it. He understands it. He understands it far better than the "adults" who are defending his honor.

[mgadfly]

I didn't read every response in this thread. I understand that there might be a place for non-competitive leagues for kids ages 9 and 10 (not my kids, but someone's kids who won't be prepared to handle losing sporting events, the death of their pets, or the many other horrible things that will undoubtedly happen during their life time). There are no intentional walks in T-Ball, and if that is as far as you want your children to develop, you can pull them out of sports at age 7 or 8.

My best friend is partially paralized on the right side of his body. He had almost zero use of his right arm, and had to have many surgeries on his left leg to keep it close to the same length as his underdeveloped right leg. He was ALWAYS the smallest player in the league and many people laughed at the fact that his best friend was ALWAYS the biggest player in the league. In stark contrast to him, I matured early and by the time I was in little league I was a head taller than the next biggest kid, and probably 50 lbs bigger. I was the heaviest kid to ever go through the 7th grade at my school (6'2" 222 lbs) and was often times intentionally walked.

I played pitcher, catcher and first base while my best friend played second base or right field. I batted clean-up in every baseball game I ever played in. He batted 8th or 9th. He never made a team or a roster spot that he didn't earn. He asked for no special treatment and worked on his game for countless hours. The most horrible experiences of my childhood was when other teams would "take it easy" on him. He absolutely hated it and wanted to be treated like a ball player, not as a handicapped ball player.

I can't help but think that in the long run treating this kid like the other team would have treated any other weaker batter is going to be better for him than treating him as if he has a handicap. I might be wrong, but my friend despite having to work a lot harder than most of us played 2 years of varsity baseball and 2 years of varsity basketball. I don't think that happens if we would have given him special treatment. Instead, we treated him like everyone else and forced him to work harder and elevate his game if he wanted to keep playing sports.

I'm not sure what I would do as that coach, but the fact that the next kid survived cancer would not have entered the equation at all.

[watravaler]

The parents of the child with cancer need to get a clue. Little Ramney needs to be strong.

[lynchjm24]

Not totally related, but the town I currently live in played for th New England championship today to go to Williamsport. They lost 3-0 to Portsmouth NH, but the interesting thing about the league - is that it's equal play during the season. Every player on the team must have x-1 at bats where x is the highest amount of at bats any player on the team had.

I wouldn't say that I agree with this setup, I just thought it was interesting that even with this setup that I'm sure most would admit is not the most competitive structure in the world they came within 3 runs of winning a regional championship and going to the LLWS.

[Ksyrup]

I immediately thought of this thread (and other discussions we've had here from time to time) when I read this article:


Japan baseball team hits 66 runs in two innings <!-- END HEADLINE -->
<!-- BEGIN STORY BODY -->Thu Apr 17, 10:46 AM ET

A Japanese high school pleaded for a regional game to be abandoned after surrendering 66 runs in less than two innings, local media reported on Thursday.

The coach of Kawamoto technical high school threw in the towel to spare his pitcher's arm with his team losing 66-0 with just one batter out in the bottom of the second.

The hapless hurler had already sent down over 250 pitches, allowing 26 runs in the first inning and 40 in the second before Kawamoto asked for mercy.

"At that pace the pitcher would have thrown around 500 pitches in four innings," Kawamoto's coach was quoted as saying. "There was a danger he could get injured."

Opponents Shunshukan were officially credited with a 9-0 victory, giving the scoreline a tinge of respectability for the luckless Kawamoto school.

(Writing by Alastair Himmer; Editing by Justin Palmer)



No explanation from the Cincinnati Reds concerning the whereabouts of Dusty Baker during this game, although people around the dugouts heard repeated cursing and references to "clogging the bases."

[rkmsuf]

tough second inning

[gstelmack]

I love how the coach decides to save the pitcher's arm AFTER 66 runs. Don't you think pulling him after maybe 10 in the first would have been a good idea?

[Oilers9911]

Chrissakes, you'll never get em out drinking Dr. Pepper.
Should've smoked em inside.

/End baseball book reference

[Logan]

I call bullshit.

[MikeVic]

The guy threw all those pitches?

[Eaglesfan27]

Obviously, he wasn't throwing very hard ;)

[Pumpy Tudors]

should baseball force japanese to throw 250 pitches a game

[Passacaglia]

should baseball force japaneses to throw 250 pitches a game

Fixed.