OT: Treason?

[Fritz]

ANKARA (Reuters) - A group of around 50 Western anti-war activists received visas Tuesday to enter Iraq where they plan to form "human shields" in an effort to deter a possible U.S.-led attack on the Arab state.

The volunteers said at an impromptu news conference in the Turkish capital they hoped their presence and the possibility of Western casualties would encourage U.S. political leaders and military planners to re-think any plans to bomb Baghdad for its alleged development of weapons of mass destruction.

"I am an American human shield on this trip to Baghdad to try and stop this war," said volunteer John Rosse.

"I ask American troops headed here...not to come, they have no business being here. They do not make good ambassadors. They are here to kill, murder, devastate the civilian population of Iraq. That is not an American thing to do."

The group is traveling across Turkey in a convoy, including a red double-decker bus, that is expected to cross into Syria on Wednesday before entering Iraq. The volunteers left London late last month and headed overland across Europe.
Iraq Grants Anti-War 'Human Shields' Entry Visas

Reuters
Tuesday, February 11, 2003; 8:50 AM

On arriving in Iraq, they plan to disperse to populated areas of Baghdad and other parts of the country and teach their women the art of the bikini wax. Critics have said they are naively playing into Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's hands.

Turkey last week deported Ken Nichols, a former U.S. marine who helped organize the "human shields" campaign, after he tried to enter the country using documents describing himself as a "citizen of the world."

Edward Cranswick, a seismologist who works for the U.S. government, said he wanted to raise awareness among Americans.

"I believe I am doing a small bit to raise attention, particularly (among) the American public...I want to be a human being alongside the Iraqis and that will get the attention of Americans," he said.

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55857-2003Feb11.html

[Drake]

Nah, just stupid.

[Craptacular]

Good, 50 less idiots amongst us.

[heybrad]

They are here to kill, murder, devastate the civilian population of Iraq.
Thats just stupid.

[GrantDawg]

Sad.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Good, 50 less idiots amongst us.

Your use of "idiots" infringes on my "stupid" designation. Please select another option.

Originally posted by heybrad
That is just stupid.

You only get a pass because I know you. Next time, I want you to at least offer royalties, though.

[Craptacular]

Good. 50 less asshats amongst us.

Is that better? :)

[ACStrider]

Treason...not yet. Now, if they actually took up arms against incoming planes and armed forces, I would hope they would be hung upon reentry to the country. Go ahead...be a human shield. I just don't want to hear anyone complaining if war does break out and they happen to be on the casulty list. They had the choice of staying at home and peacefully protesting. That's their right. They also have a right to make themselves an easy target if they so wish. I have the right to drive my car off a cliff, but that doesn't make it someone else's fault if I get killed.

[vtbub]

Stupid, yes. Treason, no.

They have every right to to do as they please, in this case extreme civil disobiedence. It would be treason, IMHO, if they were harboring Iraqi officials in their homes, or if it could be proven that they were giving secrets of how our technology works or what our battle plans are.

It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant the anti-war movement really is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Treasonous filth to be more precise.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Craptacular
Good. 50 less asshats amongst us.

Is that better? :)

Fabulous!

[Bee]

As an engineer, I don't think their bodies will be very effective as a shield. I wonder at what point will they realize this?

[Drake]

Right before the BOOM! hopefully. :)

[Bee]

I can see it now...

The protestor standing there with a hundred soldiers cowering behind them.

"Don't worry, I'm a human shield. You'll be safe behind me!"

cruise missile comes whistling in.

"Oh Sh......"

KaBOOOOM

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by Bee
As an engineer, I don't think their bodies will be very effective as a shield. I wonder at what point will they realize this?

As an engineer, I do think their bodies will make nice pothole filling though.

[Fritz]

Would this be rendering aid or comfort to the enemy?

[scooper]

hey brad!

[Bee]

Originally posted by Craptacular
As an engineer, I do think their bodies will make nice pothole filling though.

I wouldn't want to be the guy having to scrape up the pieces to put in the mix though. ;)

[Qwikshot]

I cannot believe they would do this, so they save one area, so what...I just hope they stay safe, of course, now the press can tagalong with them after the U.S. forces begin to censor reports...
Is what they are doing right? It's a futile attempt to garner support.

[Drake]

Maybe it isn't really true. Maybe it is pro-war propaganda designed to whip those of us on the fence into a patriotic frenzy of outrage that some Americans would be such poor citizens that we will jump--nay, leap--headlong into the teeth of total war.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Just sort of curious.

[Drake]

We should have stkelly52 check this out. He's in Turkey, isn't he?

[Fritz]

jebus drake, could you be a bigger doof?

[Noop]

A guys I think Fritz is a genius.

noop

[Anrhydeddu]

I wonder where the human shield was when Saddam had 1.5 million Kurds killed?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I wonder where the human shield was when Saddam had 1.5 million Kurds killed?

dude, the kurds were the shield. Saddam was just aiming at some chickens.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Fritz
dude, the kurds were the shield. Saddam was just aiming at some chickens.

That is one sad-assed reason to make yourself a human shield. I think wiping out such stupid people as that should garner him awards for cleansing the gene pool rather than international villification. Maybe I've had it wrong all along with my warmongering ways...

[Fritz]

I feel for the chickens. Poor little cluckers.

I blame Chik-Fil-A and those cows.

[dacman]

Originally posted by Drake
We should have stkelly52 check this out. He's in Turkey, isn't he?

Nope -- Malaysia. You're thinking of Dutch.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Fritz
dude, the kurds were the shield. Saddam was just aiming at some chickens.

That was the coffee spitter of the day.

[rkmsuf]

let's get this straight. They have 50 people organized into this movement? 50? What are they hoping to shield?

The only conclusion to draw is these people are insane and should they survive should be denied reentry into the USA since they would be nothing but a drain to welfare. I'd instruct the soldiers to aim at these folks first.

[Drake]

Originally posted by dacman
Nope -- Malaysia. You're thinking of Dutch.

Righty-o! Dutch it is.

Someone get Dutch on the super-secret FOFC emergency line and have him look into this.

There is never a mod around when you need them.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
let's get this straight. They have 50 people organized into this movement? 50? What are they hoping to shield?


It sure aint the chickens. they are all dead now.

I guess they could have imported more chickens from france.

I know, I know, there was the chicken ban, but those French have no ethics.

[BishopMVP]

Originally posted by Fritz
Would this be rendering aid or comfort to the enemy?

Aid no, I don't really see how they are helping the enemy. Comfort probably if you wanted to argue it. IMO no need to hang these people, just revoke their citizenship.

Besides, didn't the "leader" of this motley crew already leave and go back to Britain?

[Drake]

French chickens...isn't that redundant?

(Sorry, Darkiller. Had to be said. Fritz set it up. Blame him.)

[Drake]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
IMO no need to hang these people, just revoke their citizenship.

Let's do this to the liberals while we're at it.

And the Christians.

And the political dissidents.

And the women's libbers.

Oh, and everyone else who gets on my nerves.

Don't be a doof.

[Kodos]

I think this topic would have made for a nice poll.

[DataKing]

Originally posted by Drake
Righty-o! Dutch it is.

Someone get Dutch on the super-secret FOFC emergency line and have him look into this.

There is never a mod around when you need them.

Somewhere in Turkey, a bright red telephone rings...

[Fritz]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
Aid no, I don't really see how they are helping the enemy. Comfort probably if you wanted to argue it.

What would you define as aid or comfort?

[Drake]

What would you define as aid or comfort?

1. Tootsie Rolls
2. Vespa Scooters
3. Letting them host the Midget Olympics
4. Donkey Basketball tournaments
5. Donations of old Atari game systems
6. Teaching their women the art of the bikini wax

I did not see in the article where they intended to do any of these things, though.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Drake
1. Tootsie Rolls
2. Vespa Scooters
3. Letting them host the Midget Olympics
4. Donkey Basketball tournaments
5. Donations of old Atari game systems
6. Teaching their women the art of the bikini wax

I did not see in the article where they intended to do any of these things, though.

I think you missed something

[Drake]

Are you talking about sex again

[Drake]

Originally posted by Drake
5. Donations of old Atari game systems

Nevermind, I see it.

5. Donations of old Atari game systems and Atari game cartridges -- most notably: Pitfall (tm) and Frogger (tm), where available

Better?

[Fritz]

did you <i>read</i> the article? It is pretty shitty for you to run your doofy doofass doofyap when you obviously have not read the article.

[Drake]

I read it. I no longer consider teaching women the art of bikini wax to be aid and comfort. Bikini waxes are a hygiene issue.

[BishopMVP]

Originally posted by Drake
Let's do this to the liberals while we're at it.

And the Christians.

And the political dissidents.

And the women's libbers.

Oh, and everyone else who gets on my nerves.

Don't be a doof.

Notice how I did not say revoke the citizenship of the liberals, Christians, political dissidents, women's libbers and everyone who gets on my nerves. I support revoking the citizenship of anyone who wishes to go to a country like Iraq that is currently under sanctions from the UN/US and help that country against ours. Saying you are against the war, fine, protesting against the war, fine, trying to go to the country itself and help our opponent, fine, just don't come back. There are thousands of people who pay their life savings for the right to float on a raft or crawl across a desert who I would rather you give your citizenship too.

Originally posted by Fritz
What would you define as aid or comfort?

I would define aid as actually helping the other country we are fighting against. I do not think this applies since I don't think these people are actually helping Iraq at all. Comfort is harder to define, and is something much more open to individual interpretation. With a narrow interpretation, it could just mean actually healing soldiers from the other side or it could mean anyone saying anything "comforting" to the other side. I definitely prefer the narrower definition, since it could otherwise be used to infringe on the 1st Amendment.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Drake
I read it. I no longer consider teaching women the art of bikini wax to be aid and comfort. Bikini waxes are a hygiene issue.

revisionist.

Another article says the protestors are bringing Iraq betamax technology and Ronco Stud-O-Matic.

So there

[Drake]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
I would define aid as actually helping the other country we are fighting against.

By your definition, I would still keep liberals and women's libbers on that list. I'd also add individuals convicted of murders against young men of military eligible age. I mean, if you kill someone before we can make him a soldier, theoretically you've done the enemy's job for him/her. That should be factored into murder trials, imho.

I would also like to add the Cincinnati Bengals to this list, just on general principle.

[BishopMVP]

I said helping the other country, not hurting ours. Those are two seperate things. I'll agree on Mike Brown, but not the entire Bengals team. Corey Dillon is pretty good and Carl Pickens' famous "f---ing cracker" rant was great.

[Drake]

We'll agree to exclude Corey Dillon and Carl Pickens, but only if you give me Mike Holmgren in trade.

[ACStrider]

Originally posted by Drake
That is one sad-assed reason to make yourself a human shield. I think wiping out such stupid people as that should garner him awards for cleansing the gene pool rather than international villification. Maybe I've had it wrong all along with my warmongering ways...

Maybe they could win a collective Darwin award. :D

[Drake]

yes, yes

[Drake]

dola...

Dang it. I hate it when a "yes, yes" gets caught on the top of a new page. Bah!

[Bonegavel]

Having a differing opinion is one of the things that makes us amercian. I applaud anyone who can debate pro/con on "should we go to war" or whatever, in a rational manner. However, once our decision is made to go to war, the dissension must stop and we must get behind our troops; not in front of them.

I cannot wait to see in the coming years when the truth about all these "protesters" comes out and we find that they were all funded by al-queda-friendly organizations.

[Drake]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
However, once our decision is made to go to war, the dissension must stop and we must get behind our troops; not in front of them.

Actually, once the decision is made to go to war, then we really should be asking questions. Once it stops being rhetoric and becomes American lives, I definitely don't want the leaders of my government blowing shit for their own political gain.

I cannot wait to see in the coming years when the truth about all these "protesters" comes out and we find that they were all funded by al-queda-friendly organizations.

You know that people can disagree with you, with me, and with most everybody else without being card carrying members of The Enemy, right? Seriously, if this is how al Quaeda has decided to "attack" us next, we may as well go back to threatening North Korea or something, because these guys are out of ammo.

[John Galt]

I admire the people acting as shields. They are willing to sacrifice their lives in an attempt to stop a war that they believe unjust. They hope to decrease bloodshed and killing and are willing to pay the highest price possible. There is no treason and no evil - I think these people are amazing. I oppose this horrible, inevitable war, but am not willing to make the same sacrifice. I respect those that are more brave than I.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Drake
Actually, once the decision is made to go to war, then we really should be asking questions. Once it stops being rhetoric and becomes American lives, I definitely don't want the leaders of my government blowing shit for their own political gain.



You know that people can disagree with you, with me, and with most everybody else without being card carrying members of The Enemy, right? Seriously, if this is how al Quaeda has decided to "attack" us next, we may as well go back to threatening North Korea or something, because these guys are out of ammo.


How does Bush gain any political advantage from this? He isn't Bill "which way are the political winds blowing " Clinton. The information that he and his ilk have backs up his assertions, and if the facts don't, then he is done no matter what the outcome.

I understand that both parties have their problems, but I trust Bush 4 billion times as much as the nearest Democrat (I guess that isn't saying much, being that I have 0 trust in any of them). He has integrity.

As far as the al-queda thing, there is a story floating around that they are pouring money into the protests. Look it up for yourself. They know that the libs hold a lot of emotional sway, and are desperate for any advantage they might gain.

[BishopMVP]

I admire the people acting as [suicide bombers]. They are willing to sacrifice their lives in an attempt to stop a [government] that they believe unjust. They hope to [win] and are willing to pay the highest price possible. There is no treason and no evil - I think these people are amazing. I oppose this horrible [government], but am not willing to make the same sacrifice. I respect those that are more brave than I.


Being brave does not make you a good person worthy of my respect. It makes you a brave person. I respect these protestors bravery if they follow through with their plan, but I also think they are stupid, anti-american and undeserving of their citizenship.

[BishopMVP]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
As far as the al-queda thing, there is a story floating around that they are pouring money into the protests. Look it up for yourself. They know that the libs hold a lot of emotional sway, and are desperate for any advantage they might gain.

I haven't seen anything saying Al-Qu'aida is involved in funneling money to protestors, but I have seen things saying Iraq and Saudi Arabia are. Also, ANSWER, the group that is organizing all the anti-war protests, is a front for the Workers World Party, which is even more hardcore Communist than the Communist Party now.

[Fritz]

it seems to that protesting at home is dissent, going to our enemy and providing defense is treason. A shield is a defensive barrier. I don't see how this could be more clear.

--------

In reading up on Treason Law it appear that Treason requires three things:

1.) an overt act
2.) sufficiency of evidence
3.) wrongful intent

It is only on number 3 where a serious objection could be raised.

[ACStrider]

Originally posted by Drake
dola...

Dang it. I hate it when a "yes, yes" gets caught on the top of a new page. Bah!

I was wondering who you were responding to. Never thought it would be me. :D I had to switch to the other page and scroll down to find that one out.

Dang it. I hate it when a "yes, yes" response to my post is posted on the top of a new page. Bah!

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by ACStrider
I was wondering who you were responding to. Never thought it would be me. :D I had to switch to the other page and scroll down to find that one out.

There's always http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/yellow/quote.gif

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Fritz
In reading up on Treason Law it appear that Treason requires three things:

1.) an overt act
2.) sufficiency of evidence
3.) wrongful intent

It is only on number 3 where a serious objection could be raised.

Indeed. That is a very very subjective concept. What exactly does "wrongful intent" mean is what it appears to come down to. They would say their intent was to stop the needless murder of civilians. Hawks would counter and say that their intent was to interfere with the legitimate United States military operation to disarm a dangerous dictator. Which one is correct?

[Drake]

Originally posted by Craptacular
There's always http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/yellow/quote.gif

I could have done that, sure. But using the quick reply box is so much easier. What can I say? I'm a lazy bastard.

[Drake]

dola...

Bishop, you still haven't told me whether or not you're going to give me Mike Holmgren or not. In the meantime, I'm stuck holding Dillon and Pickens possibly without cause, and they fucking eat like a bunch of recently-liberated Afghanis, let me tell you.

[Craptacular]

Drake, I use the fast reply quite a bit. It's so nice!

[PilotMan]

Originally posted by John Galt
I admire the people acting as shields. They are willing to sacrifice their lives in an attempt to stop a war that they believe unjust. They hope to decrease bloodshed and killing and are willing to pay the highest price possible. There is no treason and no evil - I think these people are amazing. I oppose this horrible, inevitable war, but am not willing to make the same sacrifice. I respect those that are more brave than I.


Holy Shit!

Its too bad you don't feel this way about the military.

The very same thing could be said for them.

And they are serving YOUR COUNTRY...for YOU...so YOU don't have to.

Amen!!

[John Galt]

Its too bad you don't feel this way about the military.

That's a little presumptuous to say I don't. I do not take "sides" in this conflict - that people will die in Iraq, be they American or Iraqi, is not a good thing. I do, however, probably have a little more respect for those going to Iraq as human shields because they do so with no weapons, little hope of survival, and against a very strong public opinion.

[JeeberD]

Found this link (http://www.ktok.com/script/headline_newsmanager.php?id=125019&pagecontent=opinion) on Cam's station's website. I hadn't heard about them returning, I wonder how accurate this is?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Webb's World: Human Shields?


Tedd Webb - Clear Channel, Tampa


Heard Wed. mornings at 6:40 AM on Newsradio 970 WFLA-Tampa. Also available on www.teddwebb.com, www.viodaily.com, www.glennbeck.com, www.nrewsradio970wfla.com & 441 Clear Channel radio station web pages across America.



What a shocker to hear the ‘Human Shields’ who departed ‘jolly ole England’ to assure the United States would not bomb Iraqi hospitals and schools, did an about face and headed back home. “They lied to us” proclaimed a former American Marine among the group. “We were told we could be shields at hospitals and schools, they took us to power plants and refineries, and locked us down for the night in our hotel rooms, they are liars, they are scary”.

What did you expect, you useful idiot? Now let us see how these protestors view Saddam Hussein and his merry henchmen?

Human shields not willing to die for ‘the cause’ are not human shields at all, these naïve jerks are victims of themselves. The shields discovered it was not a human rights group that funded the trip to Baghdad, it was Saddam himself who bought the tickets. Remember me telling you to investigate who was behind the anti war protest? Surprise, surprise !

I think it is very plain to the even moderately informed American, Saddam Hussein is a manipulator in the first degree. Saddam is using the UN, and in fact may well go down in history as the one person who destroyed the international body. I guess everyone has some good traits.

Saddam Hussein, beware the Ides of March!

That’s how I see it!

[CamEdwards]

Jeeber,

Yes, the story is correct. The guy organizing the human shields, Christian something or other, came out early last week or late the week before that and said that Iraq wasn't letting them go where they wanted to go (surprise surprise) and that the number of human shields weren't enough to stop the war... so most people had decided to go home.

How brave of them.

[JPhillips]

I can't think of anything dumber than offering to be a human shield for Iraq. It reminds me a lot of Don Quixote jousting at windmills. That being said, I am really appauled at those of you who seem thrilled that these people will be killed. Just becauseyou don't agree with someone doesn't mean they should be killed. It really scares me how easily many Americans throw around death wishes.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by JPhillips
That being said, I am really appauled at those of you who seem thrilled that these people will be killed. Just becauseyou don't agree with someone doesn't mean they should be killed. It really scares me how easily many Americans throw around death wishes.

I think this is a little more than a disagreement.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
...Iraq wasn't letting them go where they wanted to go... so most people had decided to go home.

How brave of them.

Well, I realize that many people find fault with their decision to be there in the first place. Fine.

But, given that you're there for that purpsose... if it becomes evident that your effort will not bring about the change you sought in the first place (you won't be able to "protect" hospotals and such) - then what should you do at that point? Should you stay and help "protect" a refinery, or a munitions plant?

How is that connected to bravery?

[JPhillips]

Fritz: But we should all be happy if/when they are killed?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Fritz: But we should all be happy if/when they are killed?

I am not saying what we should all be. Personally, I do not care what happens to them.

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Fritz
I am not saying what we should all be. Personally, I do not care what happens to them.

I agree with Fritz and what Quiksand said above. There's no point for them to be there, they won't change a thing. The U.S. will not look at them as brave martyrs, we're going to look at them as idiots.

Yes, the story is correct. The guy organizing the human shields, Christian something or other, came out early last week or late the week before that and said that Iraq wasn't letting them go where they wanted to go (surprise surprise) and that the number of human shields weren't enough to stop the war... so most people had decided to go home.

That's hilarious! That mean nasty Saddam Hussein! How dare he not allow them to choose freely in a dictatorship! :mad: :p

[Craptacular]

How shocking!! Whouda thunkit?

Can we send them back involuntarily?