Holy crap! Vick-to-the-Raiders Rumor

[WSUCougar]

from SI.com's "Truth & Rumors" department:

Oakland is preparing to make a run at Michael Vick. The package would include WRs Randy Moss and Jerry Porter plus the No.1 overall pick in the 2007 draft for Vick and Atlanta's first-round pick.:eek:

I'm speechless...

[Subby]

I wonder what kind of cap hit would result from ATL trading Vick and OAK trading Moss...seems like it would be too high to make that kind of deal workable.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm streaming Atlanta sports radio (http://www.790thezone.com) at the moment. Makes for great talk, but I'm not sure it makes sense to get two aging wide receivers and stick 'em with a young QB. By the time Jamarcus is ready, I'd worry that Moss and Porter would be over the hill, and have no confidence whatsoever in the current crop of wide receivers. If we're gonna make a deal, then let's figure out a way to get Calvin.

...and then there's the cap hit.

[VPI97]

No possible way that happens. There would be so much of a backlash from the Atlanta fans that it would kill all momentum the franchise has gained in ticket sales. Say hello to a half-empty dome if Vick is traded.

[Ben E Lou]

I wonder what kind of cap hit would result from ATL trading Vick and OAK trading Moss...seems like it would be too high to make that kind of deal workable.
Heh. I started typing my response before yours went up, then walked away for a bit. Exactly.

[Ben E Lou]

No possible way that happens. There would be so much of a backlash from the Atlanta fans that it would kill all momentum the franchise has gained in ticket sales. Say hello to a half-empty dome if Vick is traded.You'd have virtual race riots on talk radio if the Birds were to draft Quinn, but I'll bet the combination of Russell and Moss would tone down that angle, at least. The two of them could fill the dome, but if the Falcons were to start Schaub, it would be a huge mistake. It would take about three games for the anti-Vick people to find out that Matt Schaub isn't who they thought he was. ;) After that, you're looking at a half-empty dome, and a city full of pissed-off bruthas. ;)

[RedKingGold]

I wonder what kind of cap hit would result from ATL trading Vick and OAK trading Moss...seems like it would be too high to make that kind of deal workable.

According to this website (hxxp://www.falcfans.com/players/michael_vick.html) that seems to have a pretty good realistc breakdown of his numbers, Vick's cap hit would be 11.778 million dollars. To wit, the Falcons have a projected $10 million under the cap to spend. It would be pretty hard for the Falcons to pull the trigger as they would have to find a way to pay the first overall draft pick, plus the base salaries of Moss and Porter. It could work if the Falcons decide to rebuild, but then why would they want two aging receivers?

[RedKingGold]

No possible way that happens. There would be so much of a backlash from the Atlanta fans that it would kill all momentum the franchise has gained in ticket sales. Say hello to a half-empty dome if Vick is traded.

Agreed. I see sort of like an Allen Iverson-Philadelphia type divorce in the future. But not this year (probably in two to three more years).

[RedKingGold]

Although, Vick to the Raiders (if they keep Moss) would be pretty freaking cool to watch.

[Ben E Lou]

This also doesn't make sense from the new coach angle (unless that first meeting went so horribly that they feel like they can't work together). Vick has always been at his best when stretching the field

[Ben E Lou]

Although, Vick to the Raiders (if they keep Moss) would be pretty freaking cool to watch.True dat.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, it'd be awesome until the third play of the season, when Vick scrambles to Moss' side of the field and gets his shoulder separated by a hit from the guy Moss was supposed to be blocking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No possible way that happens. There would be so much of a backlash from the Atlanta fans that it would kill all momentum the franchise has gained in ticket sales. Say hello to a half-empty dome if Vick is traded.

Y'know, I've consistently made the same argument & still think it has a good bit of validity, but at this point I am starting to wonder at least a little bit.

The finger incident didn't go over very well. And even if the Miami PD gave Vick a clear endorsement & made him an honorary member of their drug task force the taint of the airport incident doesn't seem likely to fade IMO.

All of that, plus the losing, plus the wait-and-see (at best) mood about the coaching choice, plus the steadily decreasing faith that ownership has a clue about what it's doing ... well, I'm starting to wonder if we may not be looking at a half-empty Dome by the middle of next season regardless of who is playing QB.

[Ksyrup]

Wise or not, the idea of a "fresh start" under a new coach mandates that they give him at least one more year, if not two. The only thing I could see changing that would be another, more serious off-field issue. If he under-performs next year, I think they have to seriously consider a move, regardless of the cap implications.

[Raiders Army]

I'm not sure Vick is what we need right now. The Raiders are such a shambles adding Vick would be like adding fuel to the fire.

[Subby]

The Raiders have a great defense - seems to me that if you add *any* offense you'll, at the very least, be looking great in preseason.

[bulletsponge]

The Raiders have a great defense - seems to me that if you add *any* offense you'll, at the very least, be looking great in preseason.

Dude this deal need to be done for this reason alone!

[Ksyrup]

The Raiders have a great defense - seems to me that if you add *any* offense you'll, at the very least, be looking great in preseason.

Very true (unfortunate to admit). On the flipside, the "what could have been" for last year with a mediocre/bad defense was off the charts. So if they turn things around on offense this year and get a favorable schedule and some luck, they could be respectable in a hurry.

[wade moore]

I agree with the folks saying this will never happen...

However... this makes me wonder... what if the Falcons tried to get Moss or Porter for Schaub?

[ISiddiqui]

Y'know, I've consistently made the same argument & still think it has a good bit of validity, but at this point I am starting to wonder at least a little bit.

The finger incident didn't go over very well. And even if the Miami PD gave Vick a clear endorsement & made him an honorary member of their drug task force the taint of the airport incident doesn't seem likely to fade IMO.

All of that, plus the losing, plus the wait-and-see (at best) mood about the coaching choice, plus the steadily decreasing faith that ownership has a clue about what it's doing ... well, I'm starting to wonder if we may not be looking at a half-empty Dome by the middle of next season regardless of who is playing QB.

I don't agree with this. No matter what Vick has done outside the field, there is always the chance that you see an absolutely amazing play made by him on the field. For that reason alone, Mr. Excitement will pack in the Dome, no matter what he does off the field.

[KWhit]

No way Randy Moss plays a down as a Falcon. There are other reasons that this trade won't happen, but the Falcons don't want Moss and his issues.

If by wild chance this trade did happen, the Falcons would trade Moss before the season started.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Yeah, it'd be awesome until the third play of the season, when Vick scrambles to Moss' side of the field and gets his shoulder separated by a hit from the guy Moss was supposed to be blocking.

Come on... that's not fair. Some WR's can block, some can't. Moss is very talented in many areas other than blocking, like half-assing it when running routes...

[Young Drachma]

I think if Moss was on a contender, he might still be a jackass, but he's show up on Sunday more than TO ever did.

[Young Drachma]

Dola

Especially now that he's spent time in purgatory. He can appreciate the earlier part of his career a lot more than before.

[rkmsuf]

I think if Moss was on a contender, he might still be a jackass, but he's show up on Sunday more than TO ever did.

Wouldn't showing up on Sunday and trying further the cause of becoming a contender? Especially with a decent defense they have over there.

Moss is a loser plain and simple.

[Synovia]

Wouldn't showing up on Sunday and trying further the cause of becoming a contender? Especially with a decent defense they have over there.

Moss is a loser plain and simple.

Moss isnt the problem in Oakland. The problem is a completely incompetent owner and coach. It wasnt just Moss, it was the entire offense that was misbehaving. The oakland Raiders problems: 1. Bad Ownership/GM (Al Davis) 2. Bad offensive coaching 3. The subway turnstiles they call an offensive line: especially Gallery, at the $8m a year theyre paying him. Randy Moss is probably about problem 20.

Last I calculated it, the cap hit for trading Vick would be about $20m. Hes not going anywhere.

[rkmsuf]

Moss isnt the problem in Oakland. The problem is a completely incompetent owner and coach. It wasnt just Moss, it was the entire offense that was misbehaving. The oakland Raiders problems: 1. Bad Ownership/GM (Al Davis) 2. Bad offensive coaching 3. The subway turnstiles they call an offensive line: especially Gallery, at the $8m a year theyre paying him. Randy Moss is probably about problem 20.

Last I calculated it, the cap hit for trading Vick would be about $20m. Hes not going anywhere.

All I said was that Moss was a loser. That's it. Whether he's problem 1 or 20 he's a problem. If you excuse his lack of effort by the situation you are basically saying Moss is a small, small man and is in fact a loser.

[Ksyrup]

I think if Moss was on a contender, he might still be a jackass, but he's show up on Sunday more than TO ever did.

Actually, until late in this year, many people were quick to defend TO's hustle and his willingness to go all out on every play. It was always Moss who took plays off, even when he played for a contender. Until this year, TO never had that reputation.

[Young Drachma]

Actually, until late in this year, many people were quick to defend TO's hustle and his willingness to go all out on every play. It was always Moss who took plays off, even when he played for a contender. Until this year, TO never had that reputation.

Hmm..that's true.

[ctmason]

I don't forsee this coming to pass either, simply because fans are filling the Dome to see Michael Vick.

Those that believe this latest incident will have fans leaving the stands are giving sports fans way too much credit.

[digamma]

This is classic Unsubstantiated Internet Rumor-mongoring. This was posted on Benmaller.com, with no source attributed.

The trade makes no sense for the Falcons. Absolutely none.

I do have a question regarding the cap hit. Don't the Falcons get hit with a second year hit as well? It's not just the 11-12M for 2007, or do I have that mixed up?

[Synovia]

All I said was that Moss was a loser. That's it. Whether he's problem 1 or 20 he's a problem. If you excuse his lack of effort by the situation you are basically saying Moss is a small, small man and is in fact a loser.

The problem is, if you say that, then you have to say that Porter is a loser, and Curry, and about 12 other players on the offense. I'm more inclined to think that its the OC, and Coach that are the losers, and not the players. I think it was still preseason when players (including defensive ones) started making comments about how it was a really bad atmosphere.

[Desnudo]

So would you rather have the #1 pick or Vick today? I'd take the #1 pick personally.

[miami_fan]

This does not make sense for either team. Why would the Falcons subject a brand new coach to Porter and Moss? Especially while trying to break in a rookie QB. And why would the Raiders take on Vick without their most talented (but troubled) receivers? I don't think either side would be happy after the deal.

[Bee]

This does not make sense for either team. Why would the Falcons subject a brand new coach to Porter and Moss? Especially while trying to break in a rookie QB. And why would the Raiders take on Vick without their most talented (but troubled) receivers? I don't think either side would be happy after the deal.

Why would Vick need receivers? Just stick an extra Guard out there to block for him.

[Logan]

So would you rather have the #1 pick or Vick today? I'd take the #1 pick personally.

I'd take the #1, simply because I'd rather roll the dice with another QB with a big contract than a guy with a huge contract who definitely isn't the answer.

[General Mike]

According to this website (hxxp://www.falcfans.com/players/michael_vick.html) that seems to have a pretty good realistc breakdown of his numbers, Vick's cap hit would be 11.778 million dollars. To wit, the Falcons have a projected $10 million under the cap to spend. It would be pretty hard for the Falcons to pull the trigger as they would have to find a way to pay the first overall draft pick, plus the base salaries of Moss and Porter. It could work if the Falcons decide to rebuild, but then why would they want two aging receivers?

11.778 million is his cap hit if he is on the Falcons in 2007. If they trade him, all the bonus money accelerates into this year and the cap hit is in the 22 million dollar range.

[Synovia]

Why would Vick need receivers? Just stick an extra Guard out there to block for him.

Vick has had 3 1st round WRs, and 2 free agent WRs who were good with their last teams. I dont think getting him Santana Moss and Steve Smith would make him work.... However.... getting him 3 big TEs and running heavy sets all the time might...

[Icy]

So would you rather have the #1 pick or Vick today? I'd take the #1 pick personally.

I would take the #1 for future but also I would get Vick to get a full stadium and a huge popularity boost, so hard choice.

[Ksyrup]

So would you rather have the #1 pick or Vick today? I'd take the #1 pick personally.


I'd rather have LT and Brees.

[Ksyrup]

I don't forsee his learning how to pass either.

Exactly

[RedKingGold]

11.778 million is his cap hit if he is on the Falcons in 2007. If they trade him, all the bonus money accelerates into this year and the cap hit is in the 22 million dollar range.

Ahh, you're right. That's what I couldn't find and I assumed it was just piled up in the "cap hit".

So, it'd be a damn near impossibility to trade Vick.

[Ksyrup]

Randy Moss is far more valuable (to me) than $22 million if he remains a Raider.

[EagleFan]

If the Falcons were smart they may want to jump on that offer. That is WAY too much to pay for that pretender of a quarterback. As always, the Raiders would be making yet another stupid move and still not have an answer at quarterback.

[digamma]

One more thing to think about.

Since the loss to the Cowboys in the 1980 play-offs, the Falcons have had six seasons where they finished better than 7-9.

Vick has been the starting quarterback for three of those seasons, and during his tenure as a starter, Atlanta has never finished worse than 7-9 (not counting the year he was injured for the first 13 games of the season).

[Synovia]

If the Falcons were smart they may want to jump on that offer. That is WAY too much to pay for that pretender of a quarterback. As always, the Raiders would be making yet another stupid move and still not have an answer at quarterback.

If the Falcons take that offer, they take the 20m cap hit, not the raiders. They still owe him (cap-wise) $20m+ of his signing bonus. Oakland would get Vick for about $6m a year, and Atlanta would get $20m of dead cap. Although, if you were goign to do it, this is the year to, with that huge cap jump and all.

[Thomkal]

Can't possibly believe the Falcons would even consider this deal. Trading one problem child for two more makes no sense, especially with a new coach.

[Mateo]

I think many people have the real Michael Vick confused with his Madden doppleganger.

Michael Vick may be fun to watch, but he'll never win the big game, regardless of where he plays.

[VPI97]

Since the loss to the Cowboys in the 1980 play-offs, the Falcons have had six seasons where they finished better than 7-9.

Vick has been the starting quarterback for three of those seasons, and during his tenure as a starter, Atlanta has never finished worse than 7-9 (not counting the year he was injured for the first 13 games of the season).
You must not be paying attention...haven't you heard that Vick is a corn row wearin', pot smokin', herpes givin' running back who doesn't grasp the fundamentals of throwing a football, yet still gets lined up at quarterback despite having an IQ that rivals the mentally challenged. Who cares about how good the team has done with him at quarterback...that was obviously the work of Jim Mora and Dan Reeves.

Jeez...you'd think that you don't read message boards, for goodness sakes.

[Synovia]

You must not be paying attention...haven't you heard that Vick is a corn row wearin', pot smokin', herpes givin' running back who doesn't grasp the fundamentals of throwing a football, yet still gets lined up at quarterback despite having an IQ that rivals the mentally challenged. Who cares about how good the team has done with him at quarterback...that was obviously the work of Jim Mora and Dan Reeves.

Jeez...you'd think that you don't read message boards, for goodness sakes.

Since Mike Vick became QB, the falcons are a remarkable 47-48-1. That includes the only 2 seasons above .500. I'm sorry, when you have the highest paid quarterback in the league, and continually have a bottom 5 in the league passing game, theres a severe misuse of cap space going on.

[stevew]

What if Mike Vick agrees to cut the Falcons a check of 10-12 million in order to leave? How does that work against the cap? Cause if he "buys/gives back" some of his bonus money, and gets a brand new contract with the Raiders, it makes a bit more sense.

[wade moore]

You must not be paying attention...haven't you heard that Vick is a corn row wearin', pot smokin', herpes givin' running back who doesn't grasp the fundamentals of throwing a football, yet still gets lined up at quarterback despite having an IQ that rivals the mentally challenged. Who cares about how good the team has done with him at quarterback...that was obviously the work of Jim Mora and Dan Reeves.

Jeez...you'd think that you don't read message boards, for goodness sakes.

Don't forgot that he got a minor drunk and had sex with her, stomped on an opposing player, and held up someone at a McDonald's in Hampton.

[timmynausea]

Since Mike Vick became QB, the falcons are a remarkable 47-48-1. That includes the only 2 seasons above .500. I'm sorry, when you have the highest paid quarterback in the league, and continually have a bottom 5 in the league passing game, theres a severe misuse of cap space going on.

In fairness, that tie could've easily been a win and they'd be .500 under Vick.

[VPI97]

Since Mike Vick became QB, the falcons are a remarkable 47-48-1. That includes the only 2 seasons above .500. I'm sorry, when you have the highest paid quarterback in the league, and continually have a bottom 5 in the league passing game, theres a severe misuse of cap space going on.

Considering that he's only played in 78 NFL games (incl post-season) and you have 96 in your win-loss record, I'm guessing there's a flaw in your calculations somewhere.

[VPI97]

Don't forgot that he got a minor drunk and had sex with her, stomped on an opposing player, and held up someone at a McDonald's in Hampton.
Damn...forgot about that. Plus, I think he's the one who murdered Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.

[wade moore]

Damn...forgot about that. Plus, I think he's the one who murdered Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.No, but he wrote a book about it.

[stevew]

All that shit happened after Vick hit that lady with a chair outside of that bowling alley. If it weren't for Doug Wilder, he'd still be in jail.

[wade moore]

All that shit happened after Vick hit that lady with a chair outside of that bowling alley. If it weren't for Doug Wilder, he'd still be in jail.

And after he made the short trip to Baltimore to participate in a drug-related video.

[Synovia]

In fairness, that tie could've easily been a win and they'd be .500 under Vick.

Is .500 under a QB who gets paid more than Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Donovan Mcnabb, etc, something to be proud of? Counting rushing, the two biggest years of Mike Vick's career have been aroudn 3400-3600 yards from scrimmage, and 24 TDs/11 fumbles, and 13 picks. To put that in perspective, Rex Grossman threw for 3200 yards, 24 TDs, and turned the ball over 25 times this year. The best year of Michael Vick (who makes $16m a year)'s career, is pretty much equivalent to Rex Grossman this year: IE, below NFL starter level.

[stevew]

And after he made the short trip to Baltimore to participate in a drug-related video.

Stop Snitchin'

[ISiddiqui]

Since Mike Vick became QB, the falcons are a remarkable 47-48-1. That includes the only 2 seasons above .500. I'm sorry, when you have the highest paid quarterback in the league, and continually have a bottom 5 in the league passing game, theres a severe misuse of cap space going on.

Let's see, did you count the games he was injured for in that total? Very judicious use of wording "since Mike Vick became QB", not "Mike Vick's record".

Shameful... you'd think that some Vick haters would have better things to do than deliberately mislead.

[wade moore]

Stop Snitchin'

That reminds me, you remember when he put out the music video for 2 Legit 2 Quit. Man, that was a hoot!

[DanGarion]

what better vick or pepsi machine?

[VPI97]

Counting rushing, the two biggest years of Mike Vick's career have been aroudn 3400-3600 yards from scrimmage, and 24 TDs/11 fumbles, and 13 picks.
Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?



you'd think that some Vick haters would have better things to do than deliberately mislead.
lol. That's a good one.

[wade moore]

Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?

In his best season, Vick dropped 10 passes.

Pathetic.

[rkmsuf]

Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?




lol. That's a good one.

he's good at fumbling and having his team recover?

[VPI97]

In his best season, Vick dropped 10 passes.

Pathetic.
He also missed three game winning field goals.


He's nothing but a loser....a loser with corn rows, to boot.

[wade moore]

FWIW - I think that given the chance, all but say 5-10 teams (guesstimating without looking and counting starting QB's) in the league would love to have Vick as their starting QB. This hatorade is from fans, not football experts IMO.

[wade moore]

He also missed three game winning field goals.


He's nothing but a loser....a loser with corn rows, to boot.

Did you know that Michael Vick has lost every coin toss? How can your team win when you're so dumb?!

[Bee]

Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?




lol. That's a good one.

well nfl.com doesn't agree with either of you.

[rkmsuf]

well nfl.com doesn't agree with either of you.

lol, a Vick-like arguement.

[wade moore]

well nfl.com doesn't agree with either of you.

Outside of the who's right, NFL.COM is pretty stupid... some great math...

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>Year</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>Fum</td><td>Lost</td><td>Fum Forced</td><td>Own Rec</td><td>Opp Rec</td><td>Yds</td><td>Tot Rec</td><td>TD</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2001</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>8</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2002</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>15</td><td>9</td><td>6</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2003</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>5</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2004</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>15</td><td>16</td><td>7</td><td>0</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>4</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2005</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>15</td><td>11</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2006</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>16</td><td>9</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>3</td><td>0</td></tr><tr id="total_CAREER_fumbles" class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td class="bg4" align="left">TOTAL</td><td class="bg4" align="left"> </td><td class="bg4">74</td><td class="bg4">55</td><td class="bg4">6</td><td class="bg4">0</td><td class="bg4">8</td><td class="bg4">1</td><td class="bg4">4</td><td class="bg4">9</td><td class="bg4">0</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Bee]

What...when you add 5, 6, 1, 7, 5 and 3 together you don't get 6?

:D

[wade moore]

What...when you add 5, 6, 1, 7, 5 and 3 together you don't get 6?

:D

Well *I* do, but this broken-ass calculator of mine doesn't agree.

[VPI97]

well nfl.com doesn't agree with either of you.
That's what I get for going with espn.com.

Looks like they separate fumbles while rushing from fumbles while being sacked.

The true numbers may be:
While sacked: 36 fumbles, 18 lost
While rushing: 19 fumbles, 9 lost

Either way, I don't see those numbers being out of line with the NFL norms when you view them as separate totals (which I think is appropriate since no one else is going to put stats out that factor in his rushing value when they complain about his passer rating)

[Bee]

Well, nfl.com might be using that fancy math they teach at VPI. ;)

[Deattribution]

Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?



He's lost 9 fumbles while rushing. This post is funny since it was followed with a quote about 'Vick haters' trying to mislead, while every one of these discussions has the same 4 Vick supports doing more misleading than the 'haters'.

[VPI97]

while every one of these discussions has the same 4 Vick supports doing more misleading than the 'haters'.
Really? Care to point out any instance where I've deliberately posted misleading numbers, chief?

[wade moore]

That's what I get for going with espn.com.

Looks like they separate fumbles while rushing from fumbles while being sacked.

The true numbers may be:
While sacked: 39 fumbles, 18 lost
While rushing: 19 fumbles, 9 lost

Either way, I don't see those numbers being out of line with the NFL norms when you view them as separate total (which I think is appropriate since no one else is going to put stats out that factor in his rushing value)

By comparison...

From 2001-2006 (According to NFL.COM):

Vick - 55 Fumbles, 27 Lost
Brady - 59 Fumbles, 25 Lost
Manning - 31 Fumbles, 10 Lost
Favre - 53 Fumbles, 25 Lost
McNair - 45 Fumbles, 19 Lost


So, I'd say Vick is pretty on-par... yeah, he missed some games, but let's face it - the number of times he runs with it more than balances that out.

Edit: Man my boy Manning's numbers are impressive here. I figure this is probably largely a factor of # sacks, but still.

[larrymcg421]

Judging individual players by the win/loss record of a team that contains 52 other players is one of the most idiotic thing that people do in modern sports discussions.

Seriously, is Tom Brady any worse a QB if Viniateri had missed all those clutch kicks? If his defense gave up an extra 10-20 pts. a game?

[Brillig]

Outside of the who's right, NFL.COM is pretty stupid... some great math...


I take it all back. Daivd Winter is a genius.

[Deattribution]

;1367407]Really? Care to point out any instance where I've deliberately posted misleading numbers, chief?

You're getting your stats from the same place as anyone else accused of misleading, so youre just as responsible when theyre incorrect as anyone else, chief.

Either way, I don't see those numbers being out of line with the NFL norms when you view them as separate totals

The guy fumbles the ball every 27 carries - that's just when he rushes. He averages about 7 rushes a game, so he fumbles the ball atleast every 4 games. This isn't including the other 39 fumbles, some which are guaranteed to be behind the scrimmage. Some which could be attributed to his 'Vick-like' ability, and if you factor in those - he averages nearly a fumble a game (every 9 carries).

[EagleFan]

A barely over 50 percenbt comnpletion percentage, a laughable quarterback rating for someone that's supposed to be a star, has the highest sacks per 16 game season total among active quarterbacks, averages almost 12 fumbles per 16 games (and that's based off his entire games played and not just starts), and one of those rare quarterbacks who opposing teams would love to see stand in the pocket all game long.

Yeah, I can see that whole formula for greatness.....

[albionmoonlight]

83 posts in the thread and 23 members viewing.

Love Vick or hate Vick, you have to admit that he peaks our interest in a way that few athletes do.

Call me crazy, but I don't think that a "Holy crap! Kitna-to-the-Texans Rumor" thread would reach 2 pages of replies.

[Ksyrup]

That's because it is beyond argument that Jon Kitna represents the future of the Detroit Lions.

[wade moore]

You're getting your stats from the same place as anyone else accused of misleading, so youre just as responsible when theyre incorrect as anyone else, chief.



The guy fumbles the ball every 27 carries - that's just when he rushes. He averages about 7 rushes a game, so he fumbles the ball atleast every 4 games. This isn't including the other 39 fumbles, some which are guaranteed to be behind the scrimmage. Some which could be attributed to his 'Vick-like' ability, and if you factor in those - he averages nearly a fumble a game (every 9 carries).

A barely over 50 percenbt comnpletion percentage, a laughable quarterback rating for someone that's supposed to be a star, has the highest sacks per 16 game season total among active quarterbacks, averages almost 12 fumbles per 16 games (and that's based off his entire games played and not just starts), and one of those rare quarterbacks who opposing teams would love to see stand in the pocket all game long.

Yeah, I can see that whole formula for greatness.....

All of these stats about fumbles you're throwing out do sound so terrible.

However, let's really frame them correctly as I have done above. His stats are clearly NOT out of line with other NFL QB's. If you have some stats that tell differently, please present them. I'm by no means a major Vick fan, I just don't like seeing people throwing out misleading/deceptive information.

[EagleFan]

By comparison...

From 2001-2006 (According to NFL.COM):

Vick - 55 Fumbles, 27 Lost 67 starts
Brady - 59 Fumbles, 25 Lost 94 starts
Manning - 31 Fumbles, 10 Lost 96 starts
Favre - 53 Fumbles, 25 Lost 96 starts
McNair - 45 Fumbles, 19 Lost 83 starts


So, I'd say Vick is pretty on-par... yeah, he missed some games, but let's face it - the number of times he runs with it more than balances that out.

Edit: Man my boy Manning's numbers are impressive here. I figure this is probably largely a factor of # sacks, but still.

Doesn't really look on par to me. Last I knew a fumble was a fumble whether you were behind the line of scrimmage or past it. His fumble rate while running is worse that Tiki Barber's was when he had the reputation of being a fumbler (before his style change).

[Deattribution]

83 posts in the thread and 23 members viewing.

Love Vick or hate Vick, you have to admit that he peaks our interest in a way that few athletes do.

Call me crazy, but I don't think that a "Holy crap! Kitna-to-the-Texans Rumor" thread would reach 2 pages of replies.

That's sort of like saying Love Hornsmaniac or hate Hornsmaniac, you have to admit that he peaks our interest in a way that few idiots do.

Vick just happens to be an easy discussion and there are always atleast 5-10 members from the Virginia/Atlanta area that are heavily supporting him in the discussion despite everyone else knowing the truth.

[wade moore]

Doesn't really look on par to me. Last I knew a fumble was a fumble whether you were behind the line of scrimmage or past it. His fumble rate while running is worse that Tiki Barber's was when he had the reputation of being a fumbler (before his style change).

Not that it changes that much, but NFL.com shows 74 games over that time, and I'm unaware of any games Vick played but didn't start.

So, I do see your point there a bit. However, I would argue that if you compared times hit->fumbles it would be about equal. In addition, it appears to me like he had a really bad year in 2004 and has improved.

Anyway.. if a few extra fumbles is your key argument against Vick, well, I feel for you.

[EagleFan]

All of these stats about fumbles you're throwing out do sound so terrible.

However, let's really frame them correctly as I have done above. His stats are clearly NOT out of line with other NFL QB's. If you have some stats that tell differently, please present them. I'm by no means a major Vick fan, I just don't like seeing people throwing out misleading/deceptive information.

All ths stats about fumbles? In the post you quoted I had one stat about fumbles, the rest were sacks, rating and completion percentage.

[Deattribution]

All of these stats about fumbles you're throwing out do sound so terrible.

However, let's really frame them correctly as I have done above. His stats are clearly NOT out of line with other NFL QB's. If you have some stats that tell differently, please present them. I'm by no means a major Vick fan, I just don't like seeing people throwing out misleading/deceptive information.

His numbers in comparison would be even better than some of those you listed if it weren't for his inability to read defenses, react quickly and pass the ball. He does alot of nice plays, but he also creates alot of problems for himself by thinking he can turn something into nothing everytime.

Also all of the QBs you listed played in more games than Vick (Favre and Manning played in EVERY game).

[rkmsuf]

never seen so much talk about an average nfl starter for an average nfl team

[EagleFan]

Vick is probably the most overrated athlete in the NFL (yesterday, today and tomorrow).

[EagleFan]

never seen so much talk about an average nfl starter for an average nfl team

average NFL team? that's being nice for a team that has never had back to back winning seasons.

[VPI97]

You're getting your stats from the same place as anyone else accused of misleading, so youre just as responsible when theyre incorrect as anyone else, chief.
So you're not going to try and backup your accusation that I've deliberately attempted to mislead people with actual links?


The guy fumbles the ball every 27 carries - that's just when he rushes.
Brady fumbles once every 17 rushes.

This isn't including the other 39 fumbles, some which are guaranteed to be behind the scrimmage. Some which could be attributed to his 'Vick-like' ability, and if you factor in those - he averages nearly a fumble a game (every 9 carries).
Vick fumbles once out of every 5.19 sacks, Brady fumbles once out of every 4.04 sacks.

[wade moore]

That's sort of like saying Love Hornsmaniac or hate Hornsmaniac, you have to admit that he peaks our interest in a way that few idiots do.

Vick just happens to be an easy discussion and there are always atleast 5-10 members from the Virginia/Atlanta area that are heavily supporting him in the discussion despite everyone else knowing the truth.

This seems to point to me.

Like I said, I really don't care one way or another about Vick. I personally feel that there is a group that gives him way too much slack and a group that gives him way too much hatred.

When it comes down to it, I think he is a guy that like I said, all but around 10 teams would love to have as their starting QB in the NFL. Combining his pluses and his minuses, I think he is a guy that many, many teams would love to have over the starting QB they have now - including the Bears (someone mentioned Grossman above).

[Synovia]

Vick has only lost nine fumbles....in his career. What else you gonna come up with?




lol. That's a good one.

What the hell you talking about? He LOST 5 in 2001, 6 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 7 in 2004, 6 in 2005, and 3 in 2006. That being said, fumble recoveries are random. Fumbles are not.

[EagleFan]

Of course the per sack number will be better when you get sacked so many more times in a season, and for someone who is supposed to be such a great runner...

[wade moore]

All ths stats about fumbles? In the post you quoted I had one stat about fumbles, the rest were sacks, rating and completion percentage.

Yeah, probably my fault.

I don't feel like digging up the Sack numbers, but it seems hard to believe that he is the worst out there. Although if he is, I think it speaks more to his line than to him.

[VPI97]

I think he is a guy that like I said, all but around 10 teams would love to have as their starting QB in the NFL.

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here (http://www.wagesofwins.com/QBScore2006.html). That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

[EagleFan]

What the hell you talking about? He LOST 5 in 2001, 6 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 7 in 2004, 6 in 2005, and 3 in 2006. That being said, [b]fumble recoveries are random. Fumbles are not.[b]

Hey now!!! Let's not try to introduce logic into the equation or the pro-Vick group will never have a chance.

[wade moore]

Of course the per sack number will be better when you get sacked so many more times in a season, and for someone who is supposed to be such a great runner...

Umm.. of course?

Do you understand how rates work?

[wade moore]

Hey now!!! Let's not try to introduce logic into the equation or the pro-Vick group will never have a chance.

VPI conceded that the numbers he were looking at were inaccurate (He believes because ESPN only posts rushing fumbles)... Deattribution, however, has not conceded that he posted completely false stats.

[wade moore]

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here (http://www.wagesofwins.com/QBScore2006.html). That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

And that list relatively closely approximates the list of teams I would come up with.

[Synovia]

However, let's really frame them correctly as I have done above. His stats are clearly NOT out of line with other NFL QB's. If you have some stats that tell differently, please present them. I'm by no means a major Vick fan, I just don't like seeing people throwing out misleading/deceptive information.

He averages a 53% completion percentage. Thats 10% below nearly every top level NFL quarterback.

[EagleFan]

Umm.. of course?

Do you understand how rates work?

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....

[EagleFan]

dola: lol, that's like someone arguing that because player A hit a homerun on his first at bat of his career he is better than Hank Aaron, hey his per at bat rate is better....

[rkmsuf]

Part of the problem for Vick continues to be that he never has to take the blame fully for the team's failing. Sure he takes individual criticism and his answer? Point to his personal stats as to backing up his competance.

Coaches have come and gone and the team continues to hover around .500. I can't believe that Atlanta fans can be happy with staking your claim with this guy only to come to realize that he's not the answer you'd think a franchise guy would be. He's not McNabb, not Manning, not Brady, not Brees, not Rivers, not Palmer, not even Vince Young. How can you be surprised when the guy is put under immense pressure when this is regime #3.

I'd love to really see how the guy prepares and tries to make himself a better player. If he's going full bore then I give him a pass in terms of making to most of his skills. I have a hard time believing from the outside he's a commited leader and someone who lives to win games as the QB of the team.

[Deattribution]

VPI conceded that the numbers he were looking at were inaccurate (He believes because ESPN only posts rushing fumbles)... Deattribution, however, has not conceded that he posted completely false stats.

What completely false stats did I post?

What I said was VPI seems to think is by getting incorrect information off the internet somehow makes his post less misleading than someone else getting incorrect information off the internet. Unfortunately, It's the same. Just because he's trying to do it in Vick's favor doesn't make it any less misleading.

I couldn't be bothered to go through all the garbage that has been posted, but anyone is welcome to go into the last discussion over this (I can't remember the exact thread now, I think it was about some other QB) and see the same garbage spewed out by the same 2 or 3 people supporting Vick.

edit to add - I remember now rkmsuf's post reminded me. The last argument over this was in the thread over Vick talking about his numbers and how he had a good season.

[Synovia]

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here (http://www.wagesofwins.com/QBScore2006.html). That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

Now consider this: This was Vick's best year as a player, and he didnt crack the top 10.

and he takes up more cap than every single player above him. For Vick to be worth his cap hit, he has to be in the top 3, not sitting down there with the likes of David Garrard.

[larrymcg421]

John Elway through 6 seasons..

QB Rating: 73.6 (Vick 75.7)
Completion%: 54.3 (Vick 53.8)
Yards Per Attempt: 6.8 (Vick 6.7)
Attempts per TD: 26.01 (Vick 24.36)
Attempts per Int: 27.65 (Vick 33.26)
Rushing Yards: 1431 (Vick 3859)
Rushing TD: 8 (Vick 21)

Clearly Vick has absolutely no chance to improve and become a Hall of Fame QB. The city of Atlanta should dump him just like the Broncos should have done to Elway.

[VPI97]

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....
You seem to be blaming Vick for getting sacked. You put no fault onto the Atlanta offensive line for those numbers?

[Synovia]

I'd love to really see how the guy prepares and tries to make himself a better player. If he's going full bore then I give him a pass in terms of making to most of his skills. I have a hard time believing from the outside he's a commited leader and someone who lives to win games as the QB of the team.

HE DOESNT. And thats the whole goddamn problem. He admitted this year that he had NEVER watched tape of himself. He admitted he usually doesnt watch other teams game tapes. Whatever physical skills he has, he just doesnt have the desire/understanding/brainpower to be an NFL quarterback.

[wade moore]

He averages a 53% completion percentage. Thats 10% below nearly every top level NFL quarterback.

Yes, this is a problem. Unfortunately you cannot quantify drops and bad receivers. I would argue that he has one of the bottom 5 receiving corps in the NFL and probably one of the bottom 10 Pass-Blocking lines. But unfortunately, I cannot quantify that. That being said - I do believe that with better WR's and coaching, that this will improve.

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....

High Apple, meet Orange.

Your statement was that "of course" the fumble rate goes down if he gets sacked more. There is absolutely no guaranteed relationship between the two. If he's a "fumbler" his rate should stay the same as he gets sacked more. If he's not, it won't.

If you want to argue that he gets sacked too much, fine, but it has nothing to do with his fumble rate.

[rkmsuf]

HE DOESNT. And thats the whole goddamn problem. He admitted this year that he had NEVER watched tape of himself. He admitted he usually doesnt watch other teams game tapes. Whatever physical skills he has, he just doesnt have the desire/understanding/brainpower to be an NFL quarterback.

Well, that's a problem then.

[Synovia]

You seem to be blaming Vick for getting sacked. You put no fault onto the Atlanta offensive line for those numbers?

Rushing QBs get sacked more than pocket passers because they hold onto the ball longer. I've watched a lot of Vick, and generally, when he gets sacked, its 6 seconds + into the play. He absolutely REFUSES to throw the ball away when he should.... That was the whole problem with Culpepper this year: He was holding onto the ball like a rushing QB but couldnt get out of the way because of the knee.

[wade moore]

What completely false stats did I post?

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

[Synovia]

Yes, this is a problem. Unfortunately you cannot quantify drops and bad receivers. I would argue that he has one of the bottom 5 receiving corps in the NFL and probably one of the bottom 10 Pass-Blocking lines. But unfortunately, I cannot quantify that. That being said - I do believe that with better WR's and coaching, that this will improve.
Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

[Deattribution]

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

No problem, I thought you had us confused :)

[Synovia]

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

NO, I said he had fumbled 11 times. Fumbles are non predictive. Its completely luck as to which way the ball bounces. A fumble is no better a play on your part if your lineman recovers it, or the other team's lineman recovers it. Its luck.

[larrymcg421]

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

Who gives a shit that the receivers were first rounders? That doesn't mean they're any good. See the Detroit Lions. Are you seriously arguing that the Falcons have a good receiving corps?

[stevew]

If we merged all of the Vick threads, we'd have a thread that would probably be the 2nd largest thread on the board behind maxFB.

[ISiddiqui]

Been through three coaching regimes? What, are you making up shit again? They've been through Dan Reeves and Jim Mora. Where's the third?

And Reeves was canned because Vick got injured. Vick's best year was under Reeves, then he got hurt, Doug Johnson showed that he and the talent around him was crap and they went 5-11.

And 'highly ranked free agents'? Maybe Peerless Price, though he turned out to be another Alvin Harper (pray tell me what Price has done since he left the Falcons). But who else? Ashley Lelie? Highly ranked? Are you shitting me?

And yeah, first rounders always end up being superstar recievers. I'm sure J.J. Stokes and Freddie Mitchell would agree with that statement.

[rkmsuf]

Who gives a shit that the receivers were first rounders? That doesn't mean they're any good. See the Detroit Lions. Are you seriously arguing that the Falcons have a good receiving corps?

as good as reche caldwell and jabar gaffney

[PackerFanatic]

Reche Caldwell's eyes scare me.

And evidently, footballs scare him.

[larrymcg421]

as good as reche caldwell and jabar gaffney

And the adjusted QB ranking link that was given above puts Brady at 11th this year. One spot ahead of Vick.

[rkmsuf]

And the adjusted QB ranking link that was given above puts Brady at 11th this year. One spot ahead of Vick.


so?

[MalcPow]

John Elway through 6 seasons..

QB Rating: 73.6 (Vick 75.7)
Completion%: 54.3 (Vick 53.8)
Yards Per Attempt: 6.8 (Vick 6.7)
Attempts per TD: 26.01 (Vick 24.36)
Attempts per Int: 27.65 (Vick 33.26)
Rushing Yards: 1431 (Vick 3859)
Rushing TD: 8 (Vick 21)

Clearly Vick has absolutely no chance to improve and become a Hall of Fame QB. The city of Atlanta should dump him just like the Broncos should have done to Elway.

Not to cloud the issue, it's a good debate, but Elway took the Broncos to the Super Bowl in years 4, 5, and 7. Trade discussions for Vick probably wouldn't be happening if he had done the same.

[wade moore]

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

Yeah, they've done all of this. But were any of the receivers GOOD? Umm... no. They brought in Price who was obviously just not that talented of a receiver anymore - proven by the fact that he became roster filler after leaving the Falcons. No 1st round WR has proven themselves for the Falcons. The WR's that have had decent performance have gotten hurt. Name me 1 WR that the Falcons have had over Vick's tenure that you would want as one of your top 2 or 3 WR's on your team.

NO, I said he had fumbled 11 times. Fumbles are non predictive. Its completely luck as to which way the ball bounces. A fumble is no better a play on your part if your lineman recovers it, or the other team's lineman recovers it. Its luck.

No one counts Fumbles vs. Fumbles Lost as the key stats.

But, let's be fair about this then. You're throwing out that he had 11 fumbles in his best seasons. Brady has had 11 or more 4 times in his career. Favre 4 times in his career... I could keep going, but you see my point. And these guys don't get hit while holding the ball (b/w sacks and runs) nearly as much as Vick does.

[Synovia]

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here (http://www.wagesofwins.com/QBScore2006.html). That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

[BishopMVP]

Rushing QBs get sacked more than pocket passers because they hold onto the ball longer. I've watched a lot of Vick, and generally, when he gets sacked, its 6 seconds + into the play. He absolutely REFUSES to throw the ball away when he should.... That was the whole problem with Culpepper this year: He was holding onto the ball like a rushing QB but couldnt get out of the way because of the knee.That's not exactly a new phenomenon for Culpepper. The man has the highest fumble rate in NFL history.Vick - 55 Fumbles, 27 Lost 67 starts
Brady - 59 Fumbles, 25 Lost 94 starts
Manning - 31 Fumbles, 10 Lost 96 starts
Favre - 53 Fumbles, 25 Lost 96 starts
McNair - 45 Fumbles, 19 Lost 83 starts

Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts
Vick has had 3 1st round WRs, and 2 free agent WRs who were good with their last teams. I dont think getting him Santana Moss and Steve Smith would make him work.... However.... getting him 3 big TEs and running heavy sets all the time might...
Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents.The receivers suck, as amply pointed out above by others. They drop more catchable balls than Reche Caldwell does against Indy. And that's after only watching 2 or 3 Falcons games this year.

[Synovia]

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap becaues most of them you can't seperate from VIck. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. THeres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. THeyre dependant.Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. Hes the common denominator. And yeah, I've seen Detroit. Roy Williams is a top 10 in the league.

[BishopMVP]

Name me 1 WR that the Falcons have had over Vick's tenure that you would want as one of your top 2 or 3 WR's on your team.A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

[Synovia]

"Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts" Extrapolate Vick's 27 in 67, and you get 34.2 fumbles lost. Here's the difference: Culpepper can actually pass.

[larrymcg421]

Not to cloud the issue, it's a good debate, but Elway took the Broncos to the Super Bowl in years 4, 5, and 7. Trade discussions for Vick probably wouldn't be happening if he had done the same.

Well I'm benot trying to argue that Vick is as good as Elway or will be better than Elway. I'm just pointing out that the numbers being presented against him don't really support the conclusion that he has been a bust and should be traded.

To be fair, Elway did an amazing job in the 86 postseason, working with an average defense. But in 87 and 89, he was working with top 10 defenses (the #1 defense in 89). Vick only had one top 10 defense, in 2002 (although it was 23rd if you use yards as the measure), and that was the year he led the Falcons to the only postseason road victory at Lambeau in league history. The other years his defenses were ranked 30th, 14th (conference championship year), 18th, and 16th.

[ISiddiqui]

Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick.

And after Atlanta? Gets cut by Dallas after being a 4th reciever and puts up crap numbers in Buffalo currently. He's Alvin Harper. He's no one special. He had Eric Moulds on the other side, and a pass heavy offense, and it was all good for him.

Lelie had a great year last year

Uh... 42 receptions for 770 yards is great now? You are thinking of 2004. In '05 he went back to his old ways.

The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down?

You are lying again. In 2004, his completion percentage was 56.4%. In 2005, it was 55.3%.

A healthy Brian Finneran?

I'm sure Vick wished for that as well this year. He was by far the reciever he was most comfortable with.

[wade moore]

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap becaues most of them you can't seperate from VIck. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. THeres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. THeyre dependant.Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. Hes the common denominator. And yeah, I've seen Detroit. Roy Williams is a top 10 in the league.

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>Year</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>GS</td><td>Rec</td><td>Yds</td><td>Avg</td><td>Lg</td><td>TD</td><td>20+</td><td>40+</td><td>1st</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2002</td><td align="left">Denver Broncos</td><td>16</td><td>1</td><td>35</td><td>525</td><td>15.0</td><td>48</td><td>2</td><td>9</td><td>3</td><td>24</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2003</td><td align="left">Denver Broncos</td><td>16</td><td>10</td><td>37</td><td>628</td><td>17.0</td><td>60</td><td>2</td><td>11</td><td>5</td><td>25</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2004</td><td align="left">Denver Broncos</td><td>16</td><td>16</td><td>54</td><td>1084</td><td>20.1</td><td>58</td><td>7</td><td>21</td><td>5</td><td>40</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2005</td><td align="left">Denver Broncos</td><td>16</td><td>13</td><td>42</td><td>770</td><td>18.3</td><td>56</td><td>1</td><td>12</td><td>5</td><td>30</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2006</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>15</td><td>10</td><td>28</td><td>430</td><td>15.4</td><td>51</td><td>1</td><td>6</td><td>2</td><td>21</td></tr></tbody></table>
2006 doesn't seem dramatically off of 2005 imo. Looks to me like he had one good year, the rest mediocre.

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>Year</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>GS</td><td>Rec</td><td>Yds</td><td>Avg</td><td>Lg</td><td>TD</td><td>20+</td><td>40+</td><td>1st</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">1999</td><td align="left">Buffalo Bills</td><td>16</td><td>4</td><td>31</td><td>393</td><td>12.7</td><td>45</td><td>3</td><td>8</td><td>1</td><td>19</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2000</td><td align="left">Buffalo Bills</td><td>16</td><td>16</td><td>52</td><td>762</td><td>14.7</td><td>42</td><td>3</td><td>11</td><td>2</td><td>34</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2001</td><td align="left">Buffalo Bills</td><td>16</td><td>16</td><td>55</td><td>895</td><td>16.3</td><td>70</td><td>7</td><td>16</td><td>4</td><td>37</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2002</td><td align="left">Buffalo Bills</td><td>16</td><td>16</td><td>94</td><td>1252</td><td>13.3</td><td>73</td><td>9</td><td>16</td><td>6</td><td>57</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2003</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>64</td><td>838</td><td>13.1</td><td>49</td><td>3</td><td>9</td><td>5</td><td>40</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2004</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>45</td><td>575</td><td>12.8</td><td>50</td><td>3</td><td>8</td><td>2</td><td>28</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2005</td><td align="left">Dallas Cowboys</td><td>7</td><td>1</td><td>6</td><td>96</td><td>16.0</td><td>58</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>4</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2006</td><td align="left">Buffalo Bills</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>49</td><td>402</td><td>8.2</td><td>25</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>20</td></tr></tbody></table>
He had 3 very solid seasons in Buffalo. Then a pretty decent season (as good as all but one of his seasons in Buffalo) in 2003. Then you see a precipitous drop in his play. not so good in 2004, couldn't even breakthrough in the Cowboys roster, and then starts all year for Buffalo and can't even match his 2004 numbers.

Keep in mind, i WANT Peerless to be good.. I bleed Tennessee Orange, but let's face it, the guy has just gone down hill in ability.

[rkmsuf]

A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

Reche Caldwell is not that good a good player. Scheme and accurate throws helped him accumulate the best stats of his career. On talent alone he's marginally above a street guy who by the way Gaffney is.

Both players could be Falcons at this point. I'd argue as Falcons they are regarded on the same level as current Falcon wideouts.

Put another way, trade receiving corps with the Pats and I'd suspect similar numbers from both teams. In fact Caldwell and Gaffney would be hard pressed to do much of anything on the Falcons team.

[VPI97]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing.
Those numbers don't combine rushing and passing...they're separate listings...that's why I prefer the one I linked.


Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.
Actually, Vick earned 55 first downs on his 121 rushes last season and made a first down on 36% of his third down throws (75% of his third down completions went for a first).

For comparison's sake, Brady made a first down on 40% of his third down throws and 77.5% of his third down completions went for a first.

[wade moore]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

Interesting analysis. I'm going to have to dig into the details of this formula more. In general I think Football Outsiders have good stats, so I don't doubt this stat has value. Especially since it has Manning far ahead of all other QB's ;)... But, before I can understand what it means to Vick, i need to read up on it more.

A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

FWIW, I would argue that the Pats are another member of the bottom 5. I think what you're saying is you'd rather Finneran than what you have, but on most NFL teams Finneran would not be a 1/2. That being said, he's not healthy, so Vick doesn't even have that.

[BishopMVP]

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap because most of them you can't seperate from Vick. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. Theres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. They're dependant. Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The receivers haven't changed a thing. Finneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. He's the common denominator.Price was a #2 and always has been. The only reason he got 1252 yards in 2002 was because Eric Moulds was getting the focus and teams were single covering Price. This year, back on Buffalo, he put up 402 yards. Lelie had 42 catches and 1 TD last year in Denver and is a one-dimensional deep threat who drops way too many balls. Taking away 2003's 5 game sample size, Vick has had Comp % of 54.9% (2002) 56.4% (2004) 55.3% (2005) and 52.6% (2006)

Go ahead and pretend his receivers are good or actually watch a Falcons game. They're not.

[wade moore]

Those numbers don't combine rushing and passing...they're separate listings...that's why I prefer the one I linked.

I knew something looked funny. I see down below it has rushing numbers and Vick's DPAR is far better than any of the other QB's. Funny to see Manning as #6 though, wouldn't expect that.

I knew I needed to understand these a bit better.

[wade moore]

Price was a #2 and always has been. The only reason he got 1252 yards in 2002 was because Eric Moulds was getting the focus and teams were single covering Price. This year, back on Buffalo, he put up 402 yards. Lelie had 42 catches and 1 TD last year in Denver and is a one-dimensional deep threat who drops way too many balls. Taking away 2003's 5 game sample size, Vick has had Comp % of 54.9% (2002) 56.4% (2004) 55.3% (2005) and 52.6% (2006)

Go ahead and pretend his receivers are good or actually watch a Falcons game. They're not.


You're just one of those typical Massachusetts Vick defenders.

;)

[larrymcg421]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

[Synovia]

Keep in mind, i WANT Peerless to be good.. I bleed Tennessee Orange, but let's face it, the guy has just gone down hill in ability.

And that started with him playing with Vick.

[wade moore]

And that started with him playing with Vick.

I see. Vick broke Price.

That's an interesting theory.

[wade moore]

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

Synovia = pwned.

[rkmsuf]

2006: the year vick puts it all together

2007: the year vick puts it all together

2008: the year vick puts it all together - after all, year 2 of the new staff

2009: the year vick puts it all together

I love how the reported lack of preparation is just brushed aside and we are reduced to arguing about fumble rates and wide receivers.

[larrymcg421]

And that started with him playing with Vick.

I love it when people deliberately ignore other evidence already posted in a thread, such as the FACT that Price had already started to drop in productiont he year BEFORE he came to Atlanta. I also love that you're trying to make the argument that Vick is so bad that in one season he ruined Peerless Price for life.

[larrymcg421]

I coulda played in the NFL, but this one time I met Michael Vick and he threw me a pass. I was never the same again.

[wade moore]

I love it when people deliberately ignore other evidence already posted in a thread, such as the FACT that Price had already started to drop in productiont he year BEFORE he came to Atlanta. I also love that you're trying to make the argument that Vick is so bad that in one season he ruined Peerless Price for life.

Nah, he picked Price and not Lelie on purpose. Lelie is the one that started to drop in production before coming to the Falcons, not Price. Price is the one that had one stellar year and then came back to earth in his first year with the Falcons.

[Synovia]

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

Where are you getting those numbers? Also, Look at DPAR. His rushing, while a plus, clearly does not overweight the fact that hes a worse passer than Kyle Orton, or Joey Harrington.

[BishopMVP]

"Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts" Extrapolate Vick's 27 in 67, and you get 34.2 fumbles lost. Here's the difference: Culpepper can actually pass.He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.Reche Caldwell is not that good a good player. Scheme and accurate throws helped him accumulate the best stats of his career. On talent alone he's marginally above a street guy who by the way Gaffney is.

Both players could be Falcons at this point. I'd argue as Falcons they are regarded on the same level as current Falcon wideouts.

Put another way, trade receiving corps with the Pats and I'd suspect similar numbers from both teams. In fact Caldwell and Gaffney would be hard pressed to do much of anything on the Falcons team.Yeah, and who on the Falcons would succeed on the Pats; Ashley Lelie or Roddy White? Like you say, in the NFL, scheme plays a much more important role in how good a player is for a team than sheer talent, and Reche Caldwell, basically a street FA like Gaffney, looks ideally suited to be a #2/3 in the Troy Brown mold now that Brady has coached him up and he understands the offense. Gaffney had 21 catches in the postseason; maybe he's starting to get it somewhat too. I'm pretty sure Lelie, White, Doug Gabriel and Chad Jackson are much more talented receivers, but clearly they didn't fit our offense that well (hopefully Jackson will with a full offseason and injury-free training camp.)

[Synovia]

I knew something looked funny. I see down below it has rushing numbers and Vick's DPAR is far better than any of the other QB's. Funny to see Manning as #6 though, wouldn't expect that.

I knew I needed to understand these a bit better.

And if you add his Rushing Dpar, and his Passing DPAR... you get... Mark Brunell.

[Synovia]

He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.

As Bad as culpepper was in Miami, he was STILL better as a passer than Vick has ever been. He had a 60% competion percentage, , and a 6.9 YPA, both higher than Vick's career highs. In Culpepper's worst year, hes STILL better than vick, An FWIW, chambers is much worse than any of Vick's WRers. He caught less than 30% of the passes thrown at him this year IIRC.

[timmynausea]

In my opinon, Vick is right around the middle of the pack in terms of starting NFL QBs. He doesn't crack the top ten but might be in the top 15. He seemed to have the potential to be a lot better than that, but for whatever number of reasons hasn't really developed as a passer.

So I guess I'm in between the two poles on this one. I think he is definitely way overpaid, but I also think the Falcons could be successful with Vick at QB if they built a good team around him and used a scheme that fit his skills.

[rkmsuf]

He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.Yeah, and who on the Falcons would succeed on the Pats; Ashley Lelie or Roddy White? Like you say, in the NFL, scheme plays a much more important role in how good a player is for a team than sheer talent, and Reche Caldwell, basically a street FA like Gaffney, looks ideally suited to be a #2/3 in the Troy Brown mold now that Brady has coached him up and he understands the offense. Gaffney had 21 catches in the postseason; maybe he's starting to get it somewhat too. I'm pretty sure Lelie, White, Doug Gabriel and Chad Jackson are much more talented receivers, but clearly they didn't fit our offense that well (hopefully Jackson will with a full offseason and injury-free training camp.)

but the falcons guys COULD fit the NE offense and there is the rub. Caldwell, Jackson, Gaffney, Brown could not fit the Falcon offense. I'd submit no receiver but the inside TE type fits the Falcon offense and I also submit that's a reflection of the scheme or qb overall.

[BishopMVP]

2006: the year vick puts it all together

2007: the year vick puts it all together

2008: the year vick puts it all together - after all, year 2 of the new staff

2009: the year vick puts it all together

I love how the reported lack of preparation is just brushed aside and we are reduced to arguing about fumble rates and wide receivers.Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't. But a question like whether his WR's have been any good is completely independent of that.

[Synovia]

Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't. But a question like whether his WR's have been any good is completely independent of that.

Right, and there never will be any way to tell. THe thing is, I see this as a case of Okham's razor: Either Atlanta has blown multiple first round Pick's on WR, picked up numerous overrated free agent Wide recievers, and failed to develope any project recievers, OR, vick is a poor passer. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

[wade moore]

And if you add his Rushing Dpar, and his Passing DPAR... you get... Mark Brunell.

I don't fully understand these numbers. So, I don't know if you can just add them together. However, if you can, Mark Brunell, according to these numbers that you are supporting, is a top 15 QB. Which basically supports what I'm saying - especially when you add the "butts in the seat" and "merchandise" factor.

[wade moore]

Right, and there never will be any way to tell. THe thing is, I see this as a case of Okham's razor: Either Atlanta has blown multiple first round Pick's on WR, picked up numerous overrated free agent Wide recievers, and failed to develope any project recievers, OR, vick is a poor passer. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

Or, is this a case of Okham's razor:

Doug Johnson:

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>Year</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>GS</td><td>Att</td><td>Comp</td><td>Pct</td><td>Yds</td><td>YPA</td><td>Lg</td><td>TD</td><td>Int</td><td>Tkld</td><td>20+</td><td>40+</td><td>Rate</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2000</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>67</td><td>36</td><td>53.7</td><td>406</td><td>6.06</td><td>26</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>13/75</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>63.4</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2001</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>60.0</td><td>23</td><td>4.60</td><td>14</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>2/13</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>110.8</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2002</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>57</td><td>37</td><td>64.9</td><td>448</td><td>7.86</td><td>63</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>3/11</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>78.7</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2003</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>10</td><td>8</td><td>243</td><td>136</td><td>56.0</td><td>1655</td><td>6.81</td><td>86</td><td>8</td><td>12</td><td>19/121</td><td>22</td><td>7</td><td>67.5</td></tr></tbody></table>
Matt Schaub:
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>ear</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>GS</td><td>Att</td><td>Comp</td><td>Pct</td><td>Yds</td><td>YPA</td><td>Lg</td><td>TD</td><td>Int</td><td>Tkld</td><td>20+</td><td>40+</td><td>Rate</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2004</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>70</td><td>33</td><td>47.1</td><td>330</td><td>4.71</td><td>59</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>4/14</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>42.0</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2005</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>16</td><td>1</td><td>64</td><td>33</td><td>51.6</td><td>495</td><td>7.73</td><td>53</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>6/27</td><td>6</td><td>2</td><td>98.1</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2006</td><td align="left">Atlanta Falcons</td><td>16</td><td>0</td><td>27</td><td>18</td><td>66.7</td><td>208</td><td>7.70</td><td>47</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2/8</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>71.2</td></tr><tr id="total_CAREER_qb_passing" class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td class="bg4" align="left">TOTAL</td><td class="bg4" align="left"> </td><td class="bg4">38</td><td class="bg4">2</td><td class="bg4">161</td><td class="bg4">84</td><td class="bg4">52.2</td><td class="bg4">1033</td><td class="bg4">6.42</td><td class="bg4">59</td><td class="bg4">6</td><td class="bg4">6</td><td class="bg4">12/49</td><td class="bg4">11</td><td class="bg4">4</td><td class="bg4">69.2</td></tr></tbody></table>

Neither guy could manage much more in comp % than Vick without some of the other pluses.

[st.cronin]

I really don't understand why posts in this thread count.

[Synovia]

I don't fully understand these numbers. So, I don't know if you can just add them together. However, if you can, Mark Brunell, according to these numbers that you are supporting, is a top 15 QB. Which basically supports what I'm saying - especially when you add the "butts in the seat" and "merchandise" factor.

Basically, you can add them together. Theyre supposed to be Points Above Replacement. Basically, Mike Vick was worth -6.3 points this year as a passer, and 32.4 as a rusher. Basically, if you took some random scrub from college, he'd get you 6 more points worth of field position in the passing game, and lose you 32 points in the rushing game. Its a cumulative stat, so frequency is rewarded. Mcnabb is ranked #7 having played only what? 6 games. He'd be up near Manning if he played 16. Charlie Batch played 3 games and had half the DPAR that Vick accumulated over a whole season. Don't forget:This was one of Vick's better seasons. In this season, he's been mediocre at best, but he makes Elite money. He's awfully similar to Eli Manning, in the fact that hes a workable NFL quarterback, but that he makes so much money that he ends up hurting the team. I think most of the Teams would love to have Mike Vick.... At $2M a year. At $16 M, most wouldnt touch him if they had the choice.

[BishopMVP]

As Bad as culpepper was in Miami, he was STILL better as a passer than Vick has ever been. He had a 60% competion percentage, , and a 6.9 YPA, both higher than Vick's career highs. In Culpepper's worst year, hes STILL better than vick, An FWIW, chambers is much worse than any of Vick's WRers. He caught less than 30% of the passes thrown at him this year IIRC.It was 39%, but whatever happened to Chris Chambers this year was one of the weirdest things I've seen in the NFL. Guy went from being criminally underrated to by far the worst WR in the NFL. Maybe the Culpepper/Joey Harrington/Cleo Lemon carousel messed him up. I'd still take him for next year over any of the Falcons WR's.

Once again, you're misrepresenting Vick's #'s. His career high YPA is 7.2. He also had a different year with 7.0 YPA. And I could point out how Culpepper had more INT's than TD's (or mislead and say he had almost double :eek: as many INT's as TD's) and over 5 sacks a game, or we can agree that 4 games is too small a sample size to compare to a full season.but the falcons guys COULD fit the NE offense and there is the rub. Caldwell, Jackson, Gaffney, Brown could not fit the Falcon offense. I'd submit no receiver but the inside TE type fits the Falcon offense and I also submit that's a reflection of the scheme or qb overall.No, they couldn't. If Doug Gabriel couldn't make it in NE's offense, Ashley Lelie, Roddy White and Michael Jenkins wouldn't either. Maybe Jenkins, but the other two have the exact skillset that it valued by the rest of the NFL (size, speed) without that which is valued by the Patriots scheme (hands, intelligence to make the right breaks and reads.)

I don't feel qualified to comment on the Falcons offense, but I figure Petrino is pretty smart and should be able to figure out a decent enough scheme. (My idea would be scrap all but one WR, add another TE and wingback in there and run some sort of the single-wing? that Arkansas ran with McFadden, slash misdirection type plays Wake Forest uses so successfully. It's not the option, so hopefully that alleviates the concern about Vick being hurt too much.)

[Synovia]

Or, is this a case of Okham's razor:

Doug Johnson:


Matt Schaub:


Neither guy could manage much more in comp % than Vick without some of the other pluses.

Both those quarterbacks display the typical developement of an NFL quarterback. Rough first year, little better 2nd year, and breaking 60% in the third year. Mike Vick has shown no such improvement. Hes basically the same passer, in the 6th year of his career, as Shaub and Johnson were coming off their rookie years, getting almost no playing time. Thats pretty damning to me.

[wade moore]

Basically, you can add them together. Theyre supposed to be Points Above Replacement. Basically, Mike Vick was worth -6.3 points this year as a passer, and 32.4 as a rusher. Basically, if you took some random scrub from college, he'd get you 6 more points worth of field position in the passing game, and lose you 32 points in the rushing game. Its a cumulative stat, so frequency is rewarded. Mcnabb is ranked #7 having played only what? 6 games. He'd be up near Manning if he played 16. Charlie Batch played 3 games and had half the DPAR that Vick accumulated over a whole season. Don't forget:This was one of Vick's better seasons. In this season, he's been mediocre at best, but he makes Elite money. He's awfully similar to Eli Manning, in the fact that hes a workable NFL quarterback, but that he makes so much money that he ends up hurting the team. I think most of the Teams would love to have Mike Vick.... At $2M a year. At $16 M, most wouldnt touch him if they had the choice.

I think you are greatly underestimating the ticket sales/merchandising factor here.

[st.cronin]

omg STOP

[wade moore]

Both those quarterbacks display the typical developement of an NFL quarterback. Rough first year, little better 2nd year, and breaking 60% in the third year. Mike Vick has shown no such improvement. Hes basically the same passer, in the 6th year of his career, as Shaub and Johnson were coming off their rookie years, getting almost no playing time. Thats pretty damning to me.

Um, when Johnson actually got PT in his 4th year with the Falcons, he went down to 56%. The high numbers, imo, are a product of small sample size. When you look at the bigger sample sizes, they're closer to 55%.

And, let's take this another way.

According to your Football outsider stats:

Doug Johnson:
2000 - -9.9
2001 - DNQ
2002 - 13.8
2003 - -3.4

Matt Schaub:
2004 - -18.0
2005 - 12.2
2006 - 4.8

I'm not going to dig up their rushing numbers, but I'm sure when you add in Vick's rushing numbers he's far better than these two.

[Synovia]

It was 39%, but whatever happened to Chris Chambers this year was one of the weirdest things I've seen in the NFL. Guy went from being criminally underrated to by far the worst WR in the NFL. Maybe the Culpepper/Joey Harrington/Cleo Lemon carousel messed him up. I'd still take him for next year over any of the Falcons WR's.

Once again, you're misrepresenting Vick's #'s. His career high YPA is 7.2. He also had a different year with 7.0 YPA.

Vick had one year at 7.21, and then his next highest was 6.97. Culpeppers's worst year was 6.93 and 7.02. So his two worst years were similar to vick's two best. He's also had multiple years over 8 ypa. Chambers had a DPAR of -19.8 this year. He was at 4.2 last year. 5.0 the year before. Chambers has hovered aroudn 50% completion percentage his whole career, while the guys around him sit much higher.

[wade moore]

omg STOP

Sorry if you don't like a football discussion on a football message board.

[Desnudo]

Well at least he's a good role model. You can overcome smoking pot and herpes to become a passable NFL QB.

[BishopMVP]

omg STOPI'm pretty sure we could make a longer thread out of nothing but your posts about Tom Brady.

[Synovia]

Um, when Johnson actually got PT in his 4th year with the Falcons, he went down to 56%. The high numbers, imo, are a product of small sample size. When you look at the bigger sample sizes, they're closer to 55%.

And, let's take this another way.

According to your Football outsider stats:

Doug Johnson:
2000 - -9.9
2001 - DNQ
2002 - 13.8
2003 - -3.4

Matt Schaub:
2004 - -18.0
2005 - 12.2
2006 - 4.8

I'm not going to dig up their rushing numbers, but I'm sure when you add in Vick's rushing numbers he's far better than these two.

DPAR is a cumulative stat, so you can't use it in this case. IE a guy who gets .1 point over average and gets 100 plays is worth 10DPAR, while a guy who gets .5 over average and only gets 10 plays is worth 5 DPAR. Vick plays 16 games,so he should have magnitudes higher DPAR.

If you want to compare players with unequal play time, use DVOA.

Schaub this year: 31% Vick: -16.6%

That means, if its 3rd and 12, and the league average is 10 yards, Vick will get you 8.4. Shaub will get you 13.1 yards.

2005 Schaub:28.9 Vick:-5.9

2004 Schaub:-70.7 (rookie year...rookies ALWAYS suck...except Roethlisburger) Vick:-24.9 Vick has continued to suck as a passer, and doesnt show any signs of getting any better. He's past the point where QBs typically learn, and hes not that good.

[st.cronin]

I'm pretty sure we could make a longer thread out of nothing but your posts about Tom Brady.

I support this idea.

[VPI97]

Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't.
I have no idea where Synovia saw something that said Vick doesn't watch tape, since the only thing I could find via google was this article (http://airtranmagazine.com/contents/2005/04/michael-vick/) in which he says he watches 'a lot' of tape. I'd be shocked if he didn't since I don't think it would matter even if Vick doesn't want to watch tape...no coach would stand for that.

[BishopMVP]

Vick had one year at 7.21, and then his next highest was 6.97. Culpeppers's worst year was 6.93 and 7.02. So his two worst years were similar to vick's two best. He's also had multiple years over 8 ypa.True, and if you had said that, I wouldn't have argued. Although it would be interesting to see what Vick could do in a downfield passing offense with the equivalent of a semi-interested Randy Moss and Cris Carter, then Nate Burleson and Marcus Robinson.Chambers had a DPAR of -19.8 this year. He was at 4.2 last year. 5.0 the year before. Chambers has hovered around 50% completion percentage his whole career, while the guys around him sit much higher.As much as I love FO and DPAR, it's pretty flawed when it comes to WR's. A guy like Plaxico Burress has around 50% catches on balls thrown at him, but I would submit that's in large part due to Eli's shitty accuracy and tendency to throw jump balls in Plaxico's direction. Roy Williams, one of your Top 10 WR's, is consistently around 50%. Ashley Lelie, one of your "good" WR's Atlanta acquired was 46%-53%-48% before Atlanta. Chambers, Burress and Williams all had/have terrible QB's throwing them the ball, and this brings them down. Chambers, Burress and Lelie are all also involved in a lot of deep passing plays, hence the lower completion %. Meanwhile guys like Wayne and Houshmandzadeh are up in the Top 4 because they have great QB's and a #1 on the other side drawing double coverage. Heck, Reche Caldwell is up above Burress, Torry Holt, Laveranues Coles, Donald Driver, Deion Branch, Braylon Edwards and Randy Moss.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.

[BishopMVP]

DPAR is a cumulative stat, so you can't use it in this case. IE a guy who gets .1 point over average and gets 100 plays is worth 10DPAR, while a guy who gets .5 over average and only gets 10 plays is worth 5 DPAR. Vick plays 16 games,so he should have magnitudes higher DPAR.

If you want to compare players with unequal play time, use DVOA.

Schaub this year: 31% Vick: -16.6%

That means, if its 3rd and 12, and the league average is 10 yards, Vick will get you 8.4. Shaub will get you 13.1 yards.No, that's not what DPAR means.2005 Schaub:28.9 Vick:-5.9

2004 Schaub:-70.7 (rookie year...rookies ALWAYS suck...except Roethlisburger) Vick:-24.9Sample size my friend, sample size. Otherwise Tim Rattay is the 3rd best QB in the league, and AJ Feeley, Sage Rosenfels, Brooks Bollinger and Q.Gray from Jacksonville are all better QB's than Schaub. If you really want to argue that Matt Schaub was half as good as AJ Feeley this year, 1/3 as good as Jay Fiedler the year before and negative 6 times as bad as Quincy Carter 3 years ago, I think I can twist these statistics as much as you.

The only time a backup QB in Atlanta got significant enough PT to compare legitimately with Vick was Doug Johnson in 2003, and he got a -16 DVOA.

[Synovia]

If you think VIck is a slightly above average passer, you're seeing something different than I am. I'm seeing an abysmal passer who's running ability helps make up for it somewhat. Whether hes decent or average, or even good, remember that he cost his team multiple first round picks, and about the same amount of cap space as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.

[Synovia]

The only time a backup QB in Atlanta got significant enough PT to compare legitimately with Vick was Doug Johnson in 2003, and he got a -16 DVOA.

Which was still higher than Vick's -19.3 for that year.

[VPI97]

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.
IMO it goes back to people not being able to quantify the value he has as a runner. Passing wise, he's bottom third of the league...rushing wise, he's the #1 QB and there's no one close. What weight should you put on each of those? How important are ten points in completion percentage when he averages 8.4 YPC on over 120 carries? Do the first downs that result from his legs out weight the lost first downs from missing a receiver? How much of a boon is it to the Atlanta running backs when a DE can't crash to the middle on an inside run when he's been told to contain a bootleg? How much of a detriment is it to the defense when a couple of incompletions turn into a three and out?

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.

[BishopMVP]

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.On-field, that's pretty much how I see it too, except I'd like to see him under a good OC and with decent personnel around him before rendering judgment. In terms of bringing fickle Atlanta fans to the Georgia Dome, he might not be overpaid, but that's a seperate argument that I'm sure the ATL'ers could have (again).

[Synovia]

IMO it goes back to people not being able to quantify the value he has as a runner. Passing wise, he's bottom third of the league...rushing wise, he's the #1 QB and there's no one close. What weight should you put on each of those? How important are ten points in completion percentage when he averages 8.4 YPC on over 120 carries? Do the first downs that result from his legs out weight the lost first downs from missing a receiver? How much of a boon is it to the Atlanta running backs when a DE can't crash to the middle on an inside run when he's been told to contain a bootleg? How much of a detriment is it to the defense when a couple of incompletions turn into a three and out?


But you CAN quantify it. There are average expectancies about how many points an offense scores from certain positions of the field. Moving from the 20 to the 40 has an expected increase in the amount of points you're likely to score on average on the drive, and it is very consistent, and very measureable. So yes, you CAN measure the amount that Mike Vick's running offset's his poor passing. Hes the best running quarterback in the league.

He was worth 32.4 points of field position over your average replacement QB running the ball. He was worth -6 points throwing the ball. So that puts him 26 points above the average replacement scrub for the season. Which is 3 points below Mark Brunell, 2 points below Eli Manning, and almost the same as Jeff Garcia. Thats right, Jeff Garcia was worth 27 points above average in only what, 7 games? And it took Vick 16 games to accumulate the same amount of points? JPLosman was worth 22 for god sakes.

[Warhammer]

Which one would you prefer right now, Vick or V. Young?

[lordscarlet]

Man there's a lot of crap.

Bring on Matt Schaub*, Atlanta's savior!

* For those that are going to bring up the "backups always do well", I'm just trying to be a homer and troll, let it be. :)

[Anthony]

i hope the Giants try to aquire Vick to make him their RB (the position he really should be playing) now that Tiki Barber is gone.

[Ben E Lou]

On-field, that's pretty much how I see it too, except I'd like to see him under a good OC and with decent personnel around him before rendering judgment. In terms of bringing fickle Atlanta fans to the Georgia Dome, he might not be overpaid, but that's a seperate argument that I'm sure the ATL'ers could have (again).The Falcons couldn't fill the Dome when they went 14-2, but they've filled it up year after year with Vick. There's really no argument in terms of energizing a fanbase. Someone mentioned Vince Young. He's the only young player that I could see filling the Dome like Vick has. Keeping him in Atlanta is a business decision that extends wayyyyyyy beyond stats. I've followed this team for over 30 years and there's never been a time when back-to-back 8-8 and 7-9 have been unacceptable. It's sad to say, but 9-6-1, 11-5, 8-8, and 7-9 (the four seasons with Vick as starting QB) are all in the upper tier of seasons in Falcon history. I'm fairly certain that 11-5 is the third-best Falcon record ever, behind 14-2 in '98 and 12-4 in '80. It's difficult to overstate what Vick has meant in terms of attendance and interest in this franchise.

[Ben E Lou]

Someone mentioned Vince Young. He's the only young player that I could see filling the Dome like Vick has.Dola/Correction:

Well, D.J. would fill it for a few weeks.

[Buccaneer]

I don't agree with this. No matter what Vick has done outside the field, there is always the chance that you see an absolutely amazing play made by him on the field. For that reason alone, Mr. Excitement will pack in the Dome, no matter what he does off the field.

And very nearby, MLK is rolling over in his grave.

[Ben E Lou]

And very nearby, MLK is rolling over in his grave.
Yes, because of course MLK was all about running quarterbacks. :rolleyes:

[Synovia]

Which one would you prefer right now, Vick or V. Young?


Young.
He's a much better passer, and hes much bigger, so much less likely to get hurt. He's also a rookie, which means he's most likely going to get better, as opposed to Vick, who is who we thought he was.

[Buccaneer]

Yes, because of course MLK was all about running quarterbacks. :rolleyes:

He was about something more important that that and it applies to everyone, including QBs, European soccer thugs, NHL and NBA players, et al. It seems like as long as a player is "exciting" and marketable, character doesn't matter - as Imran said is the unfortunate and inconvenient truth. Maybe that's why I like Tony Gwynn and LT so much. I want to grow up to be like them and not like certain others.

[Ben E Lou]

He was about something more important that that and it applies to everyone, including QBs, European soccer thugs, NHL and NBA players, et al. It seems like as long as a player is "exciting" and marketable, character doesn't matter - as Imran said is the unfortunate and inconvenient truth. Maybe that's why I like Tony Gwynn and LT so much. I want to grow up to be like them and not like certain others.Is you a old man or is you a old woman? I forget.

Apparently, your emotions won't allow you to see that sports are ENTERTAINMENT, and nothing else. Do you watch movies where there's violence? Where the proganist has flaws? TV or movies in which the actors have made horrid real-life lifestyle choices? Do you listen to music made by people with questionable lifestyles? It's no different. I am entertained by guys who can do impressive things on the field or court, period, not to get some silly morality play or something. Your attitude reminds me of that of a female (of course) friend of mine once who used to always whine about my dislike of Greg McMichael as the closer for the Braves. "You should like him! He's a Christian!" My response was simple: "Great! If I ever need a guest speaker for Sunday School, I'll be sure to keep him in mind." His eternal destination has nothing to do with how effective he was, or how much I enjoyed watching him. Give me Wohlers or Rocker or Alejandro at their best any day of the week, and twice on Sundays, over that boring, soft-throwing, ineffective McMichael.

[Buccaneer]

Is you a old man or is you a old woman? I forget.



Neither, just someone with a different opinion.

[Karlifornia]

Actually, I think MLK would be quite happy with the state of NFL football right now. Black QB's are playing at a record level, and two black head coaches are meeting in the super bowl. There are always going to be a few players with less than pristine off the field records. If the worst anyone did in their lives was smoke a few joints, I think the world would be a fantastic place.

[wade moore]

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.

This sums up Vick very nicely imo.

[Eaglesfan27]

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.


You forgot McNabb in the list of Manning, Brees, and Brady ;)

[Kodos]

The Falcons need to go back to their old uniforms. The new ones are horrid.

I like Vick, but wish he would show a little more as a passer.

[Greyroofoo]

I just like how Peyton Manning has more rushing TDs this year than Vick.

[ISiddiqui]

You forgot McNabb in the list of Manning, Brees, and Brady ;)

Only if McNabb stays healthy ;). Maybe he needs more Chunky Soup?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The Falcons couldn't fill the Dome when they went 14-2, but they've filled it up year after year with Vick. There's really no argument in terms of energizing a fanbase. Someone mentioned Vince Young. He's the only young player that I could see filling the Dome like Vick has. Keeping him in Atlanta is a business decision that extends wayyyyyyy beyond stats. I've followed this team for over 30 years and there's never been a time when back-to-back 8-8 and 7-9 have been unacceptable. It's sad to say, but 9-6-1, 11-5, 8-8, and 7-9 (the four seasons with Vick as starting QB) are all in the upper tier of seasons in Falcon history. I'm fairly certain that 11-5 is the third-best Falcon record ever, behind 14-2 in '98 and 12-4 in '80. It's difficult to overstate what Vick has meant in terms of attendance and interest in this franchise.

This is a good point. And a factor to take into account with respect to accepting for now his average/slightly better than average QB skillset. Of course, the owner has to eventually make a decision as to whether he wants to just put butts in the seat or wants to win. That will be his decision.

[wade moore]

This is a good point. And a factor to take into account with respect to accepting for now his average/slightly better than average QB skillset. Of course, the owner has to eventually make a decision as to whether he wants to just put butts in the seat or wants to win. That will be his decision.

I bet I know the answer.

[Ben E Lou]

I bet I know the answer.My best guess is that Vick has two seasons to show signs that the team can make a deep playoff run with him at the helm.

[RedKingGold]

The one thing I'm surprised no one has brought up yet (or maybe I missed it) is how Mora refused to build a system around Vick and tried to make him conform to a system. TO is an idiot but the one thing he was right about was that Greg Knapp was a bad offensive coordinator.

While I in no way am attempting to compare Tom Brady to Michael Vick, is there anyone here (besides st.cronin) who thinks that Brady doesn't have weaknesses? There's a reason he fell to the sixth round of the draft. Again, I'm not saying that Brady has no talent, but I believe the system in New England maximzes Brady's talent and minimizes his short comings. When Reeves was coach, he built the offense around Vick, and when Vick started those games the team was pretty successful.

I'm also not saying that Mora trying to employ the "West Coast Offense" did not have its merits. In fact, its value could be seen when Vick was "out" with injury (as other quarterbacks who did not have Vick's skill set could be as or even more successful with Vick).

I like Mike Vick's plight to FOF (as I try to relate most things in life). A quarterback with Vick's skills in FOF would probably have high potential in long and deep passes, and scrambling ability. He'd probably also have mediocre (think low 50's) accuracy and next to nothing in ratings for screen passes, touch passes, timing, etc. Do you try to run a throw short offense with him in FOF? Heck, no! You would try to get receivers that maximize Vick's abilities and offensive tackles with high pass blocking abilities to let Vick get out of the pocket. Had Mora played more FOF, he probably would have been more succesful. :)

The moral of the story? With Vick's cap number, the Falcons know they are going to be stuck with him for at least two more years. So, why not give him the best opportunity to succeed? He proved with Dan Reeves he could. That's why the hire of Bobby Petrino was a good selection (as would have Ken Whisenhunt). Both have had success using their great playcalling abilities to get the most out of their players (see Whisenhunt with Big Ben).

I say in two years, Petrino will make Vick a winning quarterback again.

[st.cronin]

I believe the main reason Brady fell to the 6th round was his size. He was really, really skinny in college.

[Ksyrup]

So you're saying Brady might be linked to steroids in some manner?

[st.cronin]

So you're saying Brady might be linked to steroids in some manner?

He is a professional football player.

[rkmsuf]

He is a professional football player.

I thought you were going to say "only his cock is".

[st.cronin]

I thought you were going to say "only his cock is".

That thought says a lot about you.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Tom Brady has a cock?

[rkmsuf]

That thought says a lot about you.

I could have sworn you were the guy in one thread supporting the fact that tom brady was the greatest fornicator on the planet.