Alright Boyz, Here We Go!!!! (OOTP 2007 release thoughts!!!)

[Senator]

Muddy Ruel is always a player I watch in historical replays.....must be the name. He was definitely slow as molasses, but a pretty good hitter and a decent enough Catcher....

Is the Big Train still with you?

Walter is going strong, obviously the core of my pitching staff. Bucky Harris and especially Joe Judge have made me competitive. I thought about going and getting Babe Ruth, by I rightly understand it would not be very realistic.

[Galaril]

The AI doesn't really value the MRs very well either in the draft. You can get pitchers who are borderline starters with great talents into the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds. Since everything else by then is garbage, it's pointless to pass up these MRs.

I think alot of the MRs are often starters in disguise with pretty high endurance ratings or closers with very good stuff,control and/or movement but very low endurance. I haven't done any extensive research on this in the game but I seem to be noticing it as I play and have been chnging alot of the MRs to starters and sometimes closers.

[EagleFan]

Which screen are you talking about - their history screen on the in-game screen? The in-game screen has different buttons to click at the top where you can view pitching/hitting/fielding stats separately. I find those to be a pain because they default to hitting, even for pitchers. On the player's history "card," I've found that it only shows Babe Ruth's hitting stats. I assume that once he switched from pitcher to hitter, the game recognizes him solely as a hitter and nothing more. I'd like the pitching stats to be there, too, but he's so rare that it probably doesn't make sense to spend too much time trying to get that to work correctly. If you're having that same issue with other players, maybe they also switched from pitcher to hitter in their careers? Who are they (assuming this is an historical league)?

The history screen is what I speak of. Al Orth is one of these pitchers, I will have to load up the game to see the other. He played a handful of games at other positions over the years (including in real life) but 90% (in total games played, more than that in time played at a position) at pitcher but it shows his batting and fielding stats only and not what he was actually elected for which is his pitching numbers. In a bit I'll be loading up the game and I'll get the actual numbers.

[EagleFan]

Dola: Al Orth was one. It looks like the last games he played as a position player but the percentage is so lopsided toward him being apitcher that it shouldn't consider him anything other.

The other was Jesse Tannehill. HE has other positions in he history prior to the 1901 league starting date but did not play any other positions from 1901 until the end of his career during the sim so that blows out the last position played before retirement idea. Even the positions he played before 1901 in his stats not once did he start elsewhere and the numbers are minimal at best.

[lynchjm24]

I think alot of the MRs are often starters in disguise with pretty high endurance ratings or closers with very good stuff,control and/or movement but very low endurance. I haven't done any extensive research on this in the game but I seem to be noticing it as I play and have been chnging alot of the MRs to starters and sometimes closers.

Exactly, which is why the AI needs to draft them.

[Ksyrup]

There should be no pitcher categories, just ratings and endurance levels to determine how they should be used.

[Young Drachma]

There should be no pitcher categories, just ratings and endurance levels to determine how they should be used.

I know we've been saying that for a while. I hope they start to listen. I don't mind converting pitchers when I see them, but the AI misuses entirely too many.

[Eaglesfan27]

How do I scout the draft class? I've gone to the draft page with a list of all of the prospects, but I can't find the option there to scout the draft class.

Nevermind, I was looking at the wrong draft class page.

[Ksyrup]

I've decided to take over one of the 1977 expansion teams as my first real in-game experience. Right now, I'm up to 1971 auto-simming. Ed Kranepool is a Phillie and only Willie McCovey stands in his way of a triple crown. Yep, recalc is off. :)

[Buccaneer]

I've read that most do this (sim up to your year). I find that interesting for I wouldn't do it that way. I have no problem with starting in a particular year, picking up from real life and playing it forward. Of course, I use "Remaining Career" since I would always want a declining player to continue to decline till retirement. As much as I want to forego any type of "historical replay" when playing my career, I want my history up to my starting point to be as is or at least, irrelevant. Go figure.

[Buccaneer]

Chris, what did you decide on viewing ratings?

[lynchjm24]

Why do I always get my hopes up with this game?

Mid 2009 I decide to check out the free agent pool.

19 year old FA potentials of 12con, 13 gap, 10 power, 9 eye, 14 avoid K
can play all 4 infield positions including an 8 rating at SS

Was drafted in the fifth round in 2008 by Tampa, then released the day of the 2009 draft. So I bring up Visalia the team this player was released from. Would easily by the 2nd best position player at that level for the Rays.

So the problem is 2 fold
A. Why release him?
B. Why has no one else signed him - he'll take a minor league deal?

He's not the only one, there are a bunch of other examples just like this.

[EagleFan]

One complaint that I have about this, and other current baseball sims is the need to classify pitchers (as has already been mentioned). Classify them as a pitcher and have their ratings reflect things such as endurance and how they can pitch in the clutch and leave it up to the manager to figure out where they should be played. FBPro did this and I loved that feature. Granted a draft report would print Starters and Relievers but that would be a "soft report" based on their endurance and more of a suggestion and not a hard position.

[Ksyrup]

I've read that most do this (sim up to your year). I find that interesting for I wouldn't do it that way. I have no problem with starting in a particular year, picking up from real life and playing it forward. Of course, I use "Remaining Career" since I would always want a declining player to continue to decline till retirement. As much as I want to forego any type of "historical replay" when playing my career, I want my history up to my starting point to be as is or at least, irrelevant. Go figure.

So if you chose to start in 1977, you'd just import for that year (or maybe the year before so that you could do the expansion draft)?

I can see that...I guess I don't have much problem with how the history has played out (simmed or real), since I'm about to mess up history anyway. BTW, I don't use anything but remaining career as well.

I'm starting in 1977 for two reasons - one, I can take over an expansion team, and two, I pick up right before I first got into baseball, so I'll be knee-deep in the players and teams I watched and grew up with from around 7-8 years old and forward.

I decided to turn off all ratings except the secondary ratings like baserunning, etc. I couldn't figure how I'd be able to tell from stats who was a good versus bad baserunner. SBs, maybe, but a couple of the categories seem a bit amorphous.

[Ksyrup]

Why do I always get my hopes up with this game?

Mid 2009 I decide to check out the free agent pool.

19 year old FA potentials of 12con, 13 gap, 10 power, 9 eye, 14 avoid K
can play all 4 infield positions including an 8 rating at SS

Was drafted in the fifth round in 2008 by Tampa, then released the day of the 2009 draft. So I bring up Visalia the team this player was released from. Would easily by the 2nd best position player at that level for the Rays.

So the problem is 2 fold
A. Why release him?
B. Why has no one else signed him - he'll take a minor league deal?

He's not the only one, there are a bunch of other examples just like this.

In the context of historical sims, I've seen the AI not be aggressive enough with FAs. And also, not do a good job filling need positions. Also, I've seen some of the same historical players released early in their careers and bounce from team to team before they stck. Lou Gehrig was released 3 times before sticking with Pittsburgh' Hank greenberg seems to get dumps often, as does Willie Stargell. And this is across multiple sims and different setups. I'm not sure what their ratings look like at the time they are released, but they certainly go on to have productive careers.

[Young Drachma]

Why do I always get my hopes up with this game?

Mid 2009 I decide to check out the free agent pool.

19 year old FA potentials of 12con, 13 gap, 10 power, 9 eye, 14 avoid K
can play all 4 infield positions including an 8 rating at SS

Was drafted in the fifth round in 2008 by Tampa, then released the day of the 2009 draft. So I bring up Visalia the team this player was released from. Would easily by the 2nd best position player at that level for the Rays.

So the problem is 2 fold
A. Why release him?
B. Why has no one else signed him - he'll take a minor league deal?

He's not the only one, there are a bunch of other examples just like this.

Make sure that minor league clubs have ample roster sizes. I noticed a ton of sign and release draft picks earlier in my universe. But when I made minor league clubs able to hold more teams, I didn't see it as much anymore.

But I agree that it's a dizzying problem that makes no sense with this game and never really went away.

[twothree]

So the problem is 2 fold
A. Why release him?
B. Why has no one else signed him - he'll take a minor league deal?

He's not the only one, there are a bunch of other examples just like this.

Do you have your AI evaluation ratings (under game setup/AI options) set at default (30/50/15/5)? Or did you change them? You might want to set the ratings weight higher that the default 30%.

Granted, I don't know whether that is a weight for current ratings or a weight for a combined current/potential ratings. If it is just for current ratings then it won't fix your problem.

[MJ4H]

A full college team league file might get me to buy this game. With correct rosters and jerseys. SirFozzie was working one last I saw. Is that where that mod is headed?

[DaddyTorgo]

okay here's a question.

While watching the game in the SION Webcast (kickass feature btw), you can see a pitch-by-pitch breakdown. Only problem is if the AB is over 6 pitches long you end up with a little scrollbar to scroll down to see the other pitches. But clicking any button or mouse key continues to the next batter and you lose the pitches.

Kinda frustrating. solution?? anyone?

[lynchjm24]

Do you have your AI evaluation ratings (under game setup/AI options) set at default (30/50/15/5)? Or did you change them? You might want to set the ratings weight higher that the default 30%.

Granted, I don't know whether that is a weight for current ratings or a weight for a combined current/potential ratings. If it is just for current ratings then it won't fix your problem.

I moved ratings to 50%. I have it at 50/30/15/5.

[lynchjm24]

A full college team league file might get me to buy this game. With correct rosters and jerseys. SirFozzie was working one last I saw. Is that where that mod is headed?

The feeder leagues are a work in progress. I believe that there is a college league with the uniforms and colors, but I haven't seen anything that would have real life college players.

[MJ4H]

I don't care about players, just like 100+ college teams in their correct conferences with logos and colors correct. Is this already done?

[lynchjm24]

I don't care about players, just like 100+ college teams in their correct conferences with logos and colors correct. Is this already done?

Well then why did you say correct rosters?

I think there is a template for a feeder league with 112 college teams with the right logos and colors.

[Ksyrup]

I moved ratings to 50%. I have it at 50/30/15/5.

This is probably a catch-22, because one of the issue we've seen is the AI dumping good pitchers for what appears to be a slight drop in ratings. A guy will pitch effectively one year, sometimes even winning the Cy Young, then end up in the minors, or released, or traded, before the next season, based on maybe a 2 point drop in stuff. I've actually put the rating weight down to 0 and still see the problem, which leads me to believe the game is not properly evaluating players based on stats, if at all.

[lighthousekeeper]

Why do I always get my hopes up with this game?

Mid 2009 I decide to check out the free agent pool.

19 year old FA potentials of 12con, 13 gap, 10 power, 9 eye, 14 avoid K
can play all 4 infield positions including an 8 rating at SS

Was drafted in the fifth round in 2008 by Tampa, then released the day of the 2009 draft. So I bring up Visalia the team this player was released from. Would easily by the 2nd best position player at that level for the Rays.

So the problem is 2 fold
A. Why release him?
B. Why has no one else signed him - he'll take a minor league deal?

He's not the only one, there are a bunch of other examples just like this.

do you have scouting turned off so you can see his real ratings, and not those of your scout? also, make sure the stats-based AI is turned off, otherwise the AI will be evaluating the player based partially on his stats, and you seem to want the evaluation to be based entirely on ratings.

[Ksyrup]

OK, here's a question - how am I supposed to evaluate the expansion draft? Is there no report that I can generate? Do I have to do a player-by-player evaluation myself? There's like 54 pages of players!

[lynchjm24]

do you have scouting turned off so you can see his real ratings, and not those of your scout? also, make sure the stats-based AI is turned off, otherwise the AI will be evaluating the player based partially on his stats, and you seem to want the evaluation to be based entirely on ratings.

Scouting is off. Scouting still sucks.

[Buccaneer]

OK, here's a question - how am I supposed to evaluate the expansion draft? Is there no report that I can generate? Do I have to do a player-by-player evaluation myself? There's like 54 pages of players!

There's got to be a "Generate ____ Report" button somewhere, right? Maybe it's in the same place where they put my "Roster Report" button that I loved so much.

[MizzouRah]

I would REALLY like that screen that is displayed when simming to stay up after the sim is complete.

[Ksyrup]

I would REALLY like that screen that is displayed when simming to stay up after the sim is complete.

Yep. Most useful screen in the game, and you can only see it when the game is simming.

I'm trying to play with the regular ratings off, so that I only have stats to work with, but one of the ratings that isn't shown now is endurance. Huh? I just wanted stuff/control/movement to be blanked out, not endurance. That makes no sense. Am I the only one who thinks "stuff" is a bit different than endurance?

Looks like I'll be using limited ratings...

I still don't see any way to scout the expansion draft other than player by player. Unbelievable.

[MJ4H]

Well then why did you say correct rosters?

I think there is a template for a feeder league with 112 college teams with the right logos and colors.

habit I guess. Didn't mean it. Sorry.

edit: no I just meant to say logos. Didn't realize I left that out so it was just a substitution error.

[MizzouRah]

Yep. Most useful screen in the game, and you can only see it when the game is simming.

I'm trying to play with the regular ratings off, so that I only have stats to work with, but one of the ratings that isn't shown now is endurance. Huh? I just wanted stuff/control/movement to be blanked out, not endurance. That makes no sense. Am I the only one who thinks "stuff" is a bit different than endurance?

Looks like I'll be using limited ratings...

I still don't see any way to scout the expansion draft other than player by player. Unbelievable.

You should probably post these issues you have over at the ootp forums. Maybe a search over there will turn up some help?

[SirFozzie]

A full college team league file might get me to buy this game. With correct rosters and jerseys. SirFozzie was working one last I saw. Is that where that mod is headed?

I did two versions,

Version one is a 294 team monster, with all the conferences.. but unfortunately, since you can't attach it to a league later, it's not a feeder league.

Version two has 112 teams, attached to Icy's Major League template, and there is a logo pack out for it now :)

[Buccaneer]

Yep. Most useful screen in the game, and you can only see it when the game is simming.

I'm trying to play with the regular ratings off, so that I only have stats to work with, but one of the ratings that isn't shown now is endurance. Huh? I just wanted stuff/control/movement to be blanked out, not endurance. That makes no sense. Am I the only one who thinks "stuff" is a bit different than endurance?

Looks like I'll be using limited ratings...

I still don't see any way to scout the expansion draft other than player by player. Unbelievable.

1. Is there a way to make the sim go "slower" so you can watch that screen more closely?

2. What do limited ratings give you?

The reason I like the various "reports" we got in earlier versions because they can tell a story simply. I am reminded of this in reading Balldog's latest FBCB dynasty. Go take a look at those reports - clear, concise and very readable when printed out or pasted in a thread. Baseball can have many, many more stats but when playing this game, only a handful can be used to make decisions off of as well as tell your story.

[EagleFan]

Has anyone had any blue screen of death crashes? That has happened a couple times when running the game now and the message is something about a new driver or software. The only thing installed recently has been OOTP (which is also what is running at the time of the crash).

[DaddyTorgo]

Has anyone had any blue screen of death crashes? That has happened a couple times when running the game now and the message is something about a new driver or software. The only thing installed recently has been OOTP (which is also what is running at the time of the crash).

nope. I havn't seen it crash at all honestly.

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

dammit. I just had my young slugger finish 6 RBI's shy of the triple crown. might be because with pujols/howard/dunn behind him he was batting in the #2 spot...grrrrr. no more!

[Ksyrup]

The only crashes I've had are when trying to add a league to an existing universe. Each time, it crashed the first timewhen trying to add the league, then when I did it the second time, it worked perfectly. I've had that happen 5 times, so each time I add a league, I don't even bother with the correct settings, I just let it crash as if it was a dry run, then add the league for real the second time around. It's bizarre.

[Ksyrup]

1. Is there a way to make the sim go "slower" so you can watch that screen more closely?

2. What do limited ratings give you?

The reason I like the various "reports" we got in earlier versions because they can tell a story simply. I am reminded of this in reading Balldog's latest FBCB dynasty. Go take a look at those reports - clear, concise and very readable when printed out or pasted in a thread. Baseball can have many, many more stats but when playing this game, only a handful can be used to make decisions off of as well as tell your story.

There's no speed setting. I have no problem watching it while the sim is going, it's just that when it reaches the end of the sim, or you stop it, it defaults to the schedule screen and the screen that comes up when the games are being simmed doesn't exist as its own page to be viewed.

The limited ratings are just the ratings for the various player attributes, and you can choose to have them hidden totally, or in 1-5, 2-8, 1-10, 1-20, 20-80, or 1-100 increments. I really wanted to go with no ratings, but not having a clue about a pitcher's endurance seems silly to me, so I'm going with the 2-8 ratings.

However, that still doesn't change the fact that I can't find a report to print out in order to prepare for the expansion draft.

[Honolulu Blue]

However, that still doesn't change the fact that I can't find a report to print out in order to prepare for the expansion draft.

You have to wait until the day of the draft. Well, in theory, the protection lists come out the day before the draft and you can research everyone that's NOT on that list, but that's just too tedious. Much easier to wait 'til the day of the draft and save the game there.

Go to the Expansion Draft and Protection Lists menu option for your league. Select the "Continue Draft" tab. Pick your scout (if you have those turned on). Pick your sorting option. Pick the filter. Pick the view. Write report to disk. Print. Make coffee. Repeat as necessary, using different filters/sorts/views. Save game. Study list(s) over coffee. Done.

[Ksyrup]

Thanks. That's the screen I was looking at, but I think you lost me at write report to disk. I don't think I even knew that option existed. I would never have thought to go through that many steps to get what I was looking for, but I'm glad to know it can be done.

In any event, I decided to scrap that league and just import to 1977 to play with the actual expansion teams. Problem is, my laptop, which sims games much, much faster than my desktop, is now in its 10th hour of importing the players from 1901 until 1977. Bizarre. It's at 94% right now, and I started around midnight.

[Young Drachma]

The only crashes I've had are when trying to add a league to an existing universe. Each time, it crashed the first timewhen trying to add the league, then when I did it the second time, it worked perfectly. I've had that happen 5 times, so each time I add a league, I don't even bother with the correct settings, I just let it crash as if it was a dry run, then add the league for real the second time around. It's bizarre.

I too have seen this problem before, pre- and post-patch. I just let it run its course.

[DaddyTorgo]

Thanks. That's the screen I was looking at, but I think you lost me at write report to disk. I don't think I even knew that option existed. I would never have thought to go through that many steps to get what I was looking for, but I'm glad to know it can be done.

In any event, I decided to scrap that league and just import to 1977 to play with the actual expansion teams. Problem is, my laptop, which sims games much, much faster than my desktop, is now in its 10th hour of importing the players from 1901 until 1977. Bizarre. It's at 94% right now, and I started around midnight.


that seems like there's something wrong. I've had it take significantly < 1 hour to do everything up until 2006. But I dunno your specs versus my specs...

[Ksyrup]

The computer's about 3 years old, but it runs the sims way better than my 18 month old desktop, so I've been playing on the laptop. It finished up, though, so I'm ready to go. Twelve hours later, but it worked!

[EagleFan]

lol, had one of those: "why did the game do that?" moments before I remembered that I have the league set to not allow fictional players in to the majors. The league just finished the 1958 season and I was browsing through the minor leagues for the heck of it and saw a player that has been dominating AAA.

His last 6 seasons:
.317 / 59 HR / 179 RBI / 130 R / 123 G
.385 / 78 HR / 219 RBI / 146 R / 122 G
.322 / 70 HR / 203 RBI / 120 R / 122 G
.313 / 72 HR / 225 RBI / 132 R / 123 G
.286 / 61 HR / 152 RBI / 111 R / 127 G
.283 / 62 HR / 178 RBI / 106 R / 123 G


Now there is one problem with this feature though. There have been a couple trades that appear as though the major league team trading for him valued him as if he would actually be a major league prospect (example: being traded along with a throw away fictional player for Robin Roberts plus a throw away fictional player). Also see a pitcher that was just like this, over 300 career wins and 4720 strikeouts that was traded twice for actual players (the team getting him was easily getting robbed as he can not make the majors and one of those trades included a hall of famer in return).


Edit: my initla why did that happen moment was for the player never making the majors, just to clarify. The trade information came about after looking a little deeper.

[Leonidas]

Anyone else think the interface is just a piece of crap? I love all the features. It does everything a wet-baseball dream sim should do. But damn it's a Godawful tub of lard to play. I'm sorry but when it comes to any kind of computer game to play, the playability is far more important than the features. And this one, like its predecessor, fails that test.

[lynchjm24]

Anyone else think the interface is just a piece of crap? I love all the features. It does everything a wet-baseball dream sim should do. But damn it's a Godawful tub of lard to play. I'm sorry but when it comes to any kind of computer game to play, the playability is far more important than the features. And this one, like its predecessor, fails that test.

As my league grows it slows down the interface to a crawl. I know I don't have a great machine, but I'm only in 2009 with a 30 team league and only 3 levels of minors.

[Galaril]

so, apparently the AI is still messing with depth charts, lineups though the option to do that is unchecked and especially using ghost players in historical leagues with real players is hosed right now. This really has put a halt to playing historical until it is patched. I am aware that Marcus has some personal issues that supersede a game but hopefully this can addressed sooner that six weeks from now which is what he said is a rough estimate on the next patch.

[Marc Duffy]

Anyone else think the interface is just a piece of crap? I love all the features. It does everything a wet-baseball dream sim should do. But damn it's a Godawful tub of lard to play. I'm sorry but when it comes to any kind of computer game to play, the playability is far more important than the features. And this one, like its predecessor, fails that test.
What can we do to improve it?

[jbergey22]

Marc, If you get a chance could you stop by OOTP forums and squash a couple of anoying threads? Thanks!

[Ksyrup]

I'm not enjoying all of the clicking I have to do to go back and forth while reviewing players. I like the fact that I can go from player to player with the arrow buttons on the right side, but the problem is that once I click on any part of a player, to look at stats or some other page on his card, I can't get back to where I was. Even if I use the back button, when I get back to the initial player screen, the arrow buttons are gone and I can't continue to scroll through players anymore. So basically, what I end up having to do is start over from scratch. I review 3 or 4 players, the 4th guy I want to check out stats, and instead of backing out 5 screens through all of the players I've just reviewed, I go back to the manager or team home screen to get back into my roster or transaction screen to find where I left off. It's very annoying.

[lighthousekeeper]

Anyone else think the interface is just a piece of crap? I love all the features. It does everything a wet-baseball dream sim should do. But damn it's a Godawful tub of lard to play. I'm sorry but when it comes to any kind of computer game to play, the playability is far more important than the features. And this one, like its predecessor, fails that test.

not me - while there could be some areas of improvement, i think it's far from a piece of crap.

[Ksyrup]

Anyone who spends more time over at the OOTP boards fill us in aas to this exchange? Spleen?


Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Claymore http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?p=2147272#post2147272)
Right now there is some concern if there WILL be a ootp2008...
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http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/smile.gif

I believe Markus will continue to make OOTP. SI may not be involved at some point, but I think Markus will continue making the game.

[KWhit]

Anyone else think the interface is just a piece of crap? I love all the features. It does everything a wet-baseball dream sim should do. But damn it's a Godawful tub of lard to play. I'm sorry but when it comes to any kind of computer game to play, the playability is far more important than the features. And this one, like its predecessor, fails that test.

I actually like the interface. It took some getting used to, but I think it's light years better than the old OOTP interface.

[Cork]

Put me in the "like the interface" camp as well. I am really baffled by those who say it is horrible. What would be interesting to see would be their version of an acceptable interface.

-Cork

[miked]

Anyone who spends more time over at the OOTP boards fill us in aas to this exchange? Spleen?


Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Claymore http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?p=2147272#post2147272)
Right now there is some concern if there WILL be a ootp2008...
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/smile.gif

I believe Markus will continue to make OOTP. SI may not be involved at some point, but I think Markus will continue making the game.

Eh, from reading Marc Duffy's posts, he stated that OOTP2007 has not hit sales targets yet and people are worried that since SI most likely owns the code, OOTP will be going the way of EHM shortly.

[Cork]

Anyone see a possible trend developing? SI acquires the EHM series and it dies after 2 iterations. SI acquires the OOTP series and now after 2 iterations there is talk about the 2008 version being on shaky ground.

Very interesting.

-Cork

[MizzouRah]

Although I don't find the interface horrible anymore, there was something about the simplicity of 6.5 that I still loved.

This version is so much deeper than 6.5, yet I would be lying if I didn't say I miss 6.5 at times when playing 2007.

What would happen if Jim all of sudden went to a totally different interface? I would find it cumbersome and hard to get the data I wanted to get, quickly. While there is more data in ootp 2007, I still find it hard to get where I want to go in the least amount of clicks possible.

[KWhit]

Anyone who spends more time over at the OOTP boards fill us in aas to this exchange? Spleen?


Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Claymore http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?p=2147272#post2147272)
Right now there is some concern if there WILL be a ootp2008...

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http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/smile.gif

I believe Markus will continue to make OOTP. SI may not be involved at some point, but I think Markus will continue making the game.

Marc Duffy started a thread asking the people who haven't yet purchased the game their reasons for holding off. In the thread, he stated that OOTP isn't meeting sales expectations.

A number of his other posts in the forum have been a little ominous-sounding as well. With the recent death of EHM (and the theories that the pirating of the game was just a convenient scape-goat and not the real reason it was pulled), people are a little nervous about the future of the game. And since Sega is now in the mix, there's no telling how long a leash OOTP has.

Obviously, it's way too early to be predicting the game's demise, but Marc has caused the issue to be discussed and has done little to nothing to end it, IMO.

[KWhit]

I think jbmagic puts it best:


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Hall Of Famer

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,307




</TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2147708 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #3b4b7f 1px solid"><!-- message -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by rbartlett http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?p=2147501#post2147501)
Honsetly this whole thread is ridiculous and I can't see why it should be allowed to continue.

Speculation that the product isn't sellling.. or is in danger of being discontinued is NEVER good for sales.

I am a marketing specialist... and honestly it never should have even been brought up that maybe sales goals weren't being met.

Hunting for sales... or ideas... or asking the 'faithful' for different ways that they feel the product could be advertised is fine.

We know where we look for baseball information.. or what publications that we purchase.. and where other similar products are advertised... and many of us would LOVE to help this product become more 'popular'.

But suggesting 'doom and gloom'.. or continued talk about the product being a failure... or impeding cancellation.. or discontinued support.. or this being the last year...........

for anyone that actually does support or care about this product.....

in it's best interest you ought to just continue to talk about the positives... and not about the negatives (unless it has to do with ways to make the game better.. or increase sales).

My .02 cents.


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Marc Duffy silences on this , makes it more the truth and people have every right to be concern.


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[Ksyrup]

Although I don't find the interface horrible anymore, there was something about the simplicity of 6.5 that I still loved.

This version is so much deeper than 6.5, yet I would be lying if I didn't say I miss 6.5 at times when playing 2007.

What would happen if Jim all of sudden went to a totally different interface? I would find it cumbersome and hard to get the data I wanted to get, quickly. While there is more data in ootp 2007, I still find it hard to get where I want to go in the least amount of clicks possible.

I posted a more in-depth critique over there about my problems. Personally, I think having to rely on sortable views and bookmarks treads the line between "maximum customization" and laziness (you do it yourself). I'm not sure which way it tends to lean, but I'm willing to give Markus the benefit of the doubt. One of things someone over there hit on that's been a problem for me is the combination of browser screens and completely different in-game screens that come up at different times depending on where you access them from. There are two types of player "cards" in the game, for instance. I don't understand why. I don't like going from the in-game screens to browser screens so many times. There's something odd and clunky about that. And just practically, ti doesn't make sense for why there's a difference between the screens. Why are the pitching and batting stats accessible on particular pages that are browser reports, but my roster and transaction screens are in-game screens?

The more I get into the game, the less I enjoy playing it, although it's nothing that has overcome wanting to play it. I'm just clicking way too much and it's starting to eat at me.

[Ksyrup]

Thanks for the background on the SI/OOTP thing. Interesting. It's unfortunate that sales aren't where they want them to be. As much as I'm having some personal issues with how the game plays, I still think it's been worth purchasing.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't know what sales targets for OOTP are, but I would expect that they still could expect to pickup a sizeable number of buys as we move into the baseball season. particularly with the crazy weather lately, I don't think it has really...awakened in everyone's mind that it's baseball season.

could also be a marketing opportunity though...hookup with some of the fantasy sites...toting recalc as a huge feature and historical play. ads on the big fantasy baseball sites. I know SI isn't huge and doesn't have a massive advertising budget, but certainly if Sega wants to see the game sell well and profit, they would pony up to some degree I would think?

[MizzouRah]

I posted a more in-depth critique over there about my problems. Personally, I think having to rely on sortable views and bookmarks treads the line between "maximum customization" and laziness (you do it yourself). I'm not sure which way it tends to lean, but I'm willing to give Markus the benefit of the doubt. One of things someone over there hit on that's been a problem for me is the combination of browser screens and completely different in-game screens that come up at different times depending on where you access them from. There are two types of player "cards" in the game, for instance. I don't understand why. I don't like going from the in-game screens to browser screens so many times. There's something odd and clunky about that. And just practically, ti doesn't make sense for why there's a difference between the screens. Why are the pitching and batting stats accessible on particular pages that are browser reports, but my roster and transaction screens are in-game screens?

The more I get into the game, the less I enjoy playing it, although it's nothing that has overcome wanting to play it. I'm just clicking way too much and it's starting to eat at me.

I'm in agreement with you. I hate the two different kinds of screens so far for me, there's no way for me to tell which one is going to open up at various times. Hopefully, the next patch will address some of the UI goofyness.

[Ksyrup]

I'm not really sure that is something they can or would want to change. I think it's been set up that way for purposes of almanacs and html reports for online leagues. But for solo players, there's too much cross over between the types of screens. LIke I pointed out over there, something as simple as wanting to view RL stats of historical players - that info is on a player's in-game screen, but not browser screen. And when reviewing league history, 99% of the time, I'm viewing it from the browser screen, so when I want to compare a guy's sim results with his RL stats, I can't do that from the browser screen. I have to either track him down "in the game" or, if he's retired, from the retired players screen. Or, I simply look him up on baseball-reference.com, which is faster!

[spleen1015]

Thanks for the background on the SI/OOTP thing. Interesting. It's unfortunate that sales aren't where they want them to be. As much as I'm having some personal issues with how the game plays, I still think it's been worth purchasing.

I could be seeing the whole situation incorrectly. Markus has said in the past that OOTP would be a life long project. So, I am only assuming that if SI drops OOTP, Markus will continue with it.

I don't know any details about who owns the code, etc.

With Markus' health issues, I don't know if he is still set on making this a lifelong project.

Who knows. I just don't think OOTP is dead if SI gives up on it.

Let's see. We are making a baseball game. Baseball is not big in Europe, so let's put a commerical on tv in England and try to sell this puppy.

Sounds like they are pulling the trigger themselves to me. There needs to be more US advertising.

[JonInMiddleGA]

could also be a marketing opportunity though...hookup with some of the fantasy sites...toting recalc as a huge feature and historical play. ads on the big fantasy baseball sites. I know SI isn't huge and doesn't have a massive advertising budget, but certainly if Sega wants to see the game sell well and profit, they would pony up to some degree I would think?

Generic marketing observation -- it's often very difficult to recover the costs of marketing through sales for niche products, regardless of what type of widget you're talking about.

Even with an internet-friendly product going on a per-click basis, I would think that the odds of recovering costs on something like this aren't very good with the large majority of options (and I say that even as someone who doesn't get paid when advertisers don't advertise).

[Ksyrup]

I could be seeing the whole situation incorrectly. Markus has said in the past that OOTP would be a life long project. So, I am only assuming that if SI drops OOTP, Markus will continue with it.

I don't know any details about who owns the code, etc.

With Markus' health issues, I don't know if he is still set on making this a lifelong project.

Who knows. I just don't think OOTP is dead if SI gives up on it.

Let's see. We are making a baseball game. Baseball is not big in Europe, so let's put a commerical on tv in England and try to sell this puppy.

Sounds like they are pulling the trigger themselves to me. There needs to be more US advertising.

IIRC, and Jim or anyone else can correct me on this, but I think EA owned FOF2K1 code, so when Jim wanted to do FOF4, he had to build it entirely from scratch again. I think that's how FOF4 happened.

[Honolulu Blue]

There needs to be more US advertising.

I'll agree to a point, but I think it's going to be a bit of a hard sell:

* They don't have the real MLB logos & team names (which require MLB approval - and royalties),
* They don't have the real player pictures (which require MLBPA approval - and royalties), and
* They don't have the real player names & stats (which may or may not require MLBPA approval - probably not, but SI & Sega are being cautious)

It seems to me the only people who would buy a game like this are the kind of hard-core fans who don't watch much TV (other than baseball and perhaps other sports) and can probably be reached more inexpensively by other methods.

[spleen1015]

IIRC, and Jim or anyone else can correct me on this, but I think EA owned FOF2K1 code, so when Jim wanted to do FOF4, he had to build it entirely from scratch again. I think that's how FOF4 happened.

That doesn't mean that is the case with Markus and SI.

[Ksyrup]

That doesn't mean that is the case with Markus and SI.

It may not be, but if it is, I'm just saying that Markus wouldn't be prevented from creating a "new" OOTP-like game in the future. In the worst-case scenario, he would just have to start from scratch. Otherwise, he may just be abel to buy out of his deal with SI and take the game with him. Who knows. We have no idea what's really going on, so I don't want to discuss it as if it's a done deal or anything, I was just curious about those comments since I hadn't seen what lead to them in the first place.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sounds like they are pulling the trigger themselves to me. There needs to be more US advertising.

I may have misread you, but based on the phrasing of HB's subsequent post, I started to wonder what you meant here. I commented earlier about advertising in general but was mostly thinking of internet, now I'm wondering if you might have been thinking more about TV.

I can assure you that the cost of doing television effectively in the U.S. would be quite prohibitive for something like this. They simply couldn't reasonably expect to sell enough units to cover the cost of the spots on the obvious outlets (like the ESPN networks, the FSN's, etc), not in prime baseball territory nor even in less expensive times. Heck, no slight to SI intended, but I would have significant doubts that they could even recover the costs of producing the commercial.

[Ksyrup]

What would a 30 second spot on say, the late edition of Baseball Tonight run?

[JonInMiddleGA]

What would a 30 second spot on say, the late edition of Baseball Tonight run?

I'm digging through some old proposals now ;)

(I stopped pulling those a couple of years ago, as the rate was - like ESPN baseball in general - way beyond what the viewership could justify for me)

edit to add: Found it.
Last year's rate for 2nd quarter for the late East Coast run of Baseball Tonight was $10,200 per.
By comparison, that's more than double the cost of random primetime program on ESPN Mon-Fri but it has roughly the same household audience.

And to have a reasonable expectation of any sales, the bare minimum is seeing the spot at least three times. Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't go with less than three weeks X 3/week, so let's round that off to $100k for the lightest possible schedule, add several more thousand in for the production of the spot, (not to mention internal man hours expended on the project, etc) What's the price point of OOTP now, like $40? You're talking about needing to move 3,000 units in 3 weeks just to break even, something that I don't see as remotely reasonable with only 9 commercials. 300 would be more likely IMO, and the number could easily end up closer to 30.

Again, not a knock on OOTP or SI or anybody involved, just my honest evaluation of why you're not likely to see spots for the game somewhere like that.

[Ksyrup]

Thanks. I'm just curious.

[Toddzilla]

FWIW, BaseballProspectus.com is advertising the daylights out of OOTP...

[spleen1015]

I may have misread you, but based on the phrasing of HB's subsequent post, I started to wonder what you meant here. I commented earlier about advertising in general but was mostly thinking of internet, now I'm wondering if you might have been thinking more about TV.

I can assure you that the cost of doing television effectively in the U.S. would be quite prohibitive for something like this. They simply couldn't reasonably expect to sell enough units to cover the cost of the spots on the obvious outlets (like the ESPN networks, the FSN's, etc), not in prime baseball territory nor even in less expensive times. Heck, no slight to SI intended, but I would have significant doubts that they could even recover the costs of producing the commercial.

I wasn't just talking about tv. I imagine tv is pretty costly. I was talking about in general. It may be that I just to frequent the mediums they are adviertising with.

Maybe a baseball text sim isn't worth a compny like SI developing. Maybe the market for such a game is so small that it is better for indie devs to do them instead.

Clay over at BM thinks he is out selling OOTP by leaps and bounds. I believe he implied that was because his game is in stores. He must be because if forum activity is any indication, OOTP should be kicking BM's ass.

[spleen1015]

FWIW, BaseballProspectus.com is advertising the daylights out of OOTP...

They have partnered some what with OOTP. Will Carroll did a lot of work for injuries with OOTP.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe a baseball text sim isn't worth a compny like SI developing. Maybe the market for such a game is so small that it is better for indie devs to do them instead.

Just looking at the advertising end of it, I'd say it's extremely difficult to justify marketing costs as your cost of production gets higher, which I have to think is typical for larger developers vs one person/small developers.

For many (most?) indies, the majority of their expense is incurred in personal labor, or "sweat equity". Unless I'm totally misreading the situation, most of them aren't writing too many payroll checks. (Again, no slight intended, just being real). That keeps capital outlay down & could make funds available for select advertising opportunities.

Even then, it's very much a coin toss as to whether they can break even on the spending directly. More likely that the ROI calculation would have to include expanding their word-of-mouth opportunities, which still seems to be the most effective way for products in this niche to grow. And to analyze that realistically & to try to factor it in, I'd have to be privvy to information I simply don't have - sales history, internal research, etc. I certainly wouldn't want to say that there's no good advertising opportunities out there for Niche Game Developer X, Y, or Z, but I would say that the wise choices are few & far between. More often than not, I think they would be looking at negative return on their investment, they simply couldn't get back in sales what they spent on the ads.

[JW]

Interesting discussion and I rely on this forum when making text sim purchase decisions. I chose not to get OOTP2006 after reading this forum. I'm watching the discussion on OOTP2007 closely.

Ironically I'm right in the middle of my best career ever with 6.5 I recently pulled that out, with the start of baseball season, and created a ficitonal league in Australia -- I just wanted to get out of the US entirely, even though I know the market numbers are US-based. I didn't want to buy 2007 yet.

I created a small league for the first time, 12 teams, two one-division leagues, first two places in each league make the playoffs. I used some of skydog's numbers and my own to create a fictional universe of 50-ish type baseball.

And I ended up with the greatest 6.5 experience I've ever had. Really strange. Sure after a few seasons I was able to build an excellent team, but I haven't ended up with the complete dominance I've had in every past league. And the strangest thing is that one of the franchises in the other league has become dominant in that league, so I've ended up really for the first time ever in my OOTP experience with an ongoing interleague rivalry, as evidenced by the past champions. In the past that kind of thing has always been much more random. I manage Alice Springs.

Past Champions
1946 Championship Round Winner
Darwin, beat Sydney 4 to 3

1947 Championship Round Winner
Brisbane, beat Perth 4 to 0

1948 Championship Round Winner
Cairns, beat Fremantle 4 to 3

1949 Championship Round Winner
Sydney, beat Alice Springs 4 to 3

1950 Championship Round Winner
Alice Springs, beat Sydney 4 to 3

1951 Championship Round Winner
Sydney, beat Fremantle 4 to 3

1952 Championship Round Winner
Alice Springs, beat Brisbane 4 to 0

1953 Championship Round Winner
Alice Springs, beat Sydney 4 to 1

1954 Championship Round Winner
Sydney, beat Alice Springs 4 to 1

1955 Championship Round Winner
Sydney, beat Alice Springs 4 to 0

1956 Championship Round Winner
Brisbane, beat Adelaide 4 to 2
(Alice Springs and Sydney both lost in the first round)

What really pisses me off is that I have yet to really get the best of Sydney.

6.5 really still has a lot going for it, though I'm going to buy 2007 after this career runs its course.

One reason I think this league has been so much more interesting btw is because it is smaller. I usually have played with 24 or more teams. In this league, I've gotten to know the players around the league much better and I think somehow the smaller number of teams leads to more interesting results.

The thing about 2007 I'm hopeful for is the ability to create leagues like this with an even greater sense of realism and also fun.

What I would really like though would be the ability to easily create promotion/relegation leagues. From what I've read, that isn't in 2007, though you can manipulate your league manually to get promotion and relegation.

[bhlloy]

I'll agree to a point, but I think it's going to be a bit of a hard sell:

* They don't have the real MLB logos & team names (which require MLB approval - and royalties),
* They don't have the real player pictures (which require MLBPA approval - and royalties), and
* They don't have the real player names & stats (which may or may not require MLBPA approval - probably not, but SI & Sega are being cautious)

It seems to me the only people who would buy a game like this are the kind of hard-core fans who don't watch much TV (other than baseball and perhaps other sports) and can probably be reached more inexpensively by other methods.

Bingo. And if a casual gamer does manage to make it over to the OOTP forums to at least see if he can get "real" MLB rosters, he is going to see all the arguments and bitching and still no rosters. Not a great advert for the game.

Personally, the reason I haven't bought yet is a combination of the roster issue and people on this forum reporting issues that seem to have been around for ever and not fixed. The demo plays pretty well, but other than a brand new interface and the opportunity to put a major league in Kazakhstan, I'm not that sold on it being a massive upgrade over 6.5 (which was an awesome game)

I haven't read Marc Duffy's comments so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. But if he is really holding the demise of OOTP over people's heads in order to force people into buying the game, that is bullshit.

In regards to Markus carrying on if SI does drop the hammer on OOTP, if SI does own the code I can't imagine it being that easy to completely re-write an 8th generation game from scratch. That is just speculation though.

[Marc Duffy]

I could be seeing the whole situation incorrectly. Markus has said in the past that OOTP would be a life long project. So, I am only assuming that if SI drops OOTP, Markus will continue with it.

I don't know any details about who owns the code, etc.

With Markus' health issues, I don't know if he is still set on making this a lifelong project.

Who knows. I just don't think OOTP is dead if SI gives up on it.

Let's see. We are making a baseball game. Baseball is not big in Europe, so let's put a commerical on tv in England and try to sell this puppy.

Sounds like they are pulling the trigger themselves to me. There needs to be more US advertising.
NASN has over 6 million subscribers across Europe. The UK is a small market - it's more we got a VERY good deal (and I mean a very good deal) it was a no brainer.

It's not a UK company doing UK advertising on a US product by any means! So far, it's proven to be one of our most effective tie ins ever

[Marc Duffy]

I'll agree to a point, but I think it's going to be a bit of a hard sell:

* They don't have the real MLB logos & team names (which require MLB approval - and royalties),
* They don't have the real player pictures (which require MLBPA approval - and royalties), and
* They don't have the real player names & stats (which may or may not require MLBPA approval - probably not, but SI & Sega are being cautious)

It seems to me the only people who would buy a game like this are the kind of hard-core fans who don't watch much TV (other than baseball and perhaps other sports) and can probably be reached more inexpensively by other methods.
We're targetting sites where we believe people go daily, a couple of times a week, to get baseball news or information.

[Marc Duffy]

I may have misread you, but based on the phrasing of HB's subsequent post, I started to wonder what you meant here. I commented earlier about advertising in general but was mostly thinking of internet, now I'm wondering if you might have been thinking more about TV.

I can assure you that the cost of doing television effectively in the U.S. would be quite prohibitive for something like this. They simply couldn't reasonably expect to sell enough units to cover the cost of the spots on the obvious outlets (like the ESPN networks, the FSN's, etc), not in prime baseball territory nor even in less expensive times. Heck, no slight to SI intended, but I would have significant doubts that they could even recover the costs of producing the commercial.
You are indeed correct - way out of our league financially.

The NASN stuff we got at a very good rate and it was an opportunity we could not miss

[Marc Duffy]

They have partnered some what with OOTP. Will Carroll did a lot of work for injuries with OOTP.
Just so you know, the two are very much not connected.

[Marc Duffy]

Bingo. And if a casual gamer does manage to make it over to the OOTP forums to at least see if he can get "real" MLB rosters, he is going to see all the arguments and bitching and still no rosters. Not a great advert for the game.

Personally, the reason I haven't bought yet is a combination of the roster issue and people on this forum reporting issues that seem to have been around for ever and not fixed. The demo plays pretty well, but other than a brand new interface and the opportunity to put a major league in Kazakhstan, I'm not that sold on it being a massive upgrade over 6.5 (which was an awesome game)

I haven't read Marc Duffy's comments so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. But if he is really holding the demise of OOTP over people's heads in order to force people into buying the game, that is bullshit.

In regards to Markus carrying on if SI does drop the hammer on OOTP, if SI does own the code I can't imagine it being that easy to completely re-write an 8th generation game from scratch. That is just speculation though.
No, Marc Duffy is not doing anything of the sort.

I made a throwaway comment that people seemed to have jumped on. We've got a target for OOTP, it's not there YET and that is all I said. The season is 1 week old!

But for this holiday weekend, I would have stubbed it out quicker.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The NASN stuff we got at a very good rate and it was an opportunity we could not miss

And, as I alluded to (or tried to), good opportunities do exist ... there just aren't as many as people might think at first blush.

If you got a deal that made sense (and I gather that you did), congratulations & more power to you AFAIC.

[Coder]

I'm curious.. no one knows FOF-sales, but I'm actually having a hard time thinking that FOF outsells OOTP. But I still think Jim gets more profit per unit than SI does for OOTP.

Maybe the problem is that for sports other than soccer, there simply ISN'T a market big enough for a larger company to make text-based sims around that sport. With larger company I mean more than 2-3 people splitting the profits.

Just counting on my fingers, I'm sure that OOTP-production costs are way higher than FOF's, diminishing profit/unit even more. The Facegen SDK isn't cheap, and add to that more people involved in production on the SI side (testing, extra programming, producers etc).. and on to SEGA for promotion costs, SEGAs cut etc.

I wonder where the limit goes.. to get more sales, there needs be more promotion, and promotion costs.. I don't think there's a chance in hell that OOTP will ever reach FM-sales.

[Marc Duffy]

And, as I alluded to (or tried to), good opportunities do exist ... there just aren't as many as people might think at first blush.

If you got a deal that made sense (and I gather that you did), congratulations & more power to you AFAIC.
The problem is, that at first glance it looks like we're trying to advertise / convert those guys in the UK which could not be further from the truth (given a fraction of the subcriber base is in the UK) but that's a different story!

[Coder]

FWIW, I haven't seen the NASN-commercial, but it's a great idea. NASN targets both Europeans who have an interest in American sports, but also all the American soldiers stationed across Europe (primarily in Germany).

[Marc Duffy]

I'm curious.. no one knows FOF-sales, but I'm actually having a hard time thinking that FOF outsells OOTP. But I still think Jim gets more profit per unit than SI does for OOTP.

Maybe the problem is that for sports other than soccer, there simply ISN'T a market big enough for a larger company to make text-based sims around that sport. With larger company I mean more than 2-3 people splitting the profits.

Just counting on my fingers, I'm sure that OOTP-production costs are way higher than FOF's, diminishing profit/unit even more. The Facegen SDK isn't cheap, and add to that more people involved in production on the SI side (testing, extra programming, producers etc).. and on to SEGA for promotion costs, SEGAs cut etc.

I wonder where the limit goes.. to get more sales, there needs be more promotion, and promotion costs.. I don't think there's a chance in hell that OOTP will ever reach FM-sales.
Like many things, the Facegen tech is cheaper than you think.

We use simple maths to work out an advertising spend for the game (which we base on our sales targets)

[Marc Duffy]

FWIW, I haven't seen the NASN-commercial, but it's a great idea. NASN targets both Europeans who have an interest in American sports, but also all the American soldiers stationed across Europe (primarily in Germany).

Ladies and gents. we have a winner.

[Coder]

Ladies and gents. we have a winner.

Considering I work for the department at Volvo targetting US Military with their advertising, it wasn't that long of a reach ;-)

[JonInMiddleGA]

erp ... removing an unintentional double post.

But while it's here, I'll add that I didn't know Coder was in advertising (or did I misread that, and it's actually the product you work on that's the subject of the advertising?)

[Coder]

erp ... removing an unintentional double post.

But while it's here, I'll add that I didn't know Coder was in advertising (or did I misread that, and it's actually the product you work on that's the subject of the advertising?)

No, I work for a department within VCC (Volvo Cars) specializing in sales for US Tourists (buy your car locally in the US and come over here to pick up the car combining it with a vacation driving in Europe and getting a "factory tour") as well as US Military.

So, no, I don't work in advertising, but we're a small department and the guy next to me does :).

[Ksyrup]

My brother almost did that with the Volvo he bought a couple of years ago. Can't remember why he didn't, but he ended up just special ordering it locally.

[DaddyTorgo]

imho you could sell tickets to the 2nd coming of jesus and not reach the sales in a year that fm does in a month

[Buccaneer]

imho you could sell tickets to the 2nd coming of jesus and not reach the sales in a year that fm does in a month

That is true. I am reminded of the quote from a versions back that it sold 100,000 units the first weekend alone.

[Young Drachma]

My most recent universe decided to go kaput. I just clicked on a players name and for some reason, that was the end of that. Won't reload no matter how many times I try to restart it. I'm annoyed, but..that's not something that hasn't happen -- the mystery lost universe -- in past versions.

So..now I have to figure out what I want to do now for a universe to get immersed into. I'm thinking reloading with the baseball world that I had before -- at least, with those teams or similar -- and having a promotion/relegation system in the US. What could be better than those third-division New York Yankees?

Hmm...

[adubroff]

Just counting on my fingers, I'm sure that OOTP-production costs are way higher than FOF's, diminishing profit/unit even more. The Facegen SDK isn't cheap, and add to that more people involved in production on the SI side (testing, extra programming, producers etc).. and on to SEGA for promotion costs, SEGAs cut etc.


I would bet this one cuts both ways.

Most of the other things you mention Jim does himself. Jim ends up "paying" a very senior game developer to do testing and a lot of fairly simple programming tasks. SI is not paying somebody what Jim would make on the open market to do testing. Now, Jim probably catches up in efficiency in some other arenas. He can make all of the decisions himself and not have to deal with the overhead of collaboration.

I would not be totally suprised if Jim's cost is less than SIs but I think that might have something to do with the ambition of the game (SIs architecture is very open/moddable, which adds a lot to the production costs I would guess). Jim's game is generally not that flexible but the lack of flexibility allows him to produce a product which behaves more consistently than OOTP does.

[Ryan S]

NASN has over 6 million subscribers across Europe. The UK is a small market - it's more we got a VERY good deal (and I mean a very good deal) it was a no brainer.

NASN viewers tend to be hard core fans (after all, they are paying $20-30 a month on top of other TV expenses to watch US sports) so they are exactly the kind of market that SI needs to go after in Europe.

[SirFozzie]

It'd be like offering commercials for FM2008/WWSM2008 on Setanta Sports here in the USA

[Ksyrup]

I have to say, after a couple of weeks with the game and now trying to get into actually playing the game as it is intended...I'm just not into it. I can't get into the flow of a game at all - either there's too much to do, and I'm finding myself ceding authority to the AI to manage the day-to-day stuff and keeping just roster moves for myself to manage, or I'm trying to take it all on and finding it way too tedious.

And I'm not really getting into the universe at all, not like when I just sim history and spend time sorting through it. I hate to say it, but it's the interface that's killing it for me, mostly. Having to click multiple times and scroll to get the information that the quick-sim screen provides is a big part of it. Markus apparently already nixed the idea of making that screen accessible other than for quick-simming, but I don't understand it at all. Taking us to the scores/schedule screen after the games have simmed is useless. Not only do I have to click a few times to get to what I want to look at, but it takes me out of the rhythm of the sim - if that quick-sim page would just stay up after the simming ends, I'd be able to quickly view standings and leaders, click on the teams/players I want to view from there, or just start simming again with the drop-down menu auto-sim feature. No need to go anywhere else but that page, unless I need to make changes to my team, which would be accessible directly from that screen.

And trying to make roster/FA moves is a pain in the ass - I'm constantly having to exit out of the screen I'm in and basically start over from the initial roster/FA screen because there's no easy way that I can see to get from the players I'm viewing back to the screen I started from. And then there are the screens where, for some reason, there is no ability to scroll through players, so I have to go to each one individually and click back out to get to the next one (minor leaguers on the transaction screen are this way). And when a player is injured, initially I thought it was pretty cool that the player pops up automatically, until I realized that there is no way to easily move from the player to the transaction screen without a few clicks. Am I missing something here? I'd rather have the transaction screen be the pop-up, so I can quickly make a roster move, and if I want to see a player or two, I have that option. But telling me the guy is injured for 4 weeks and then giving me his screen is redundant. I don't need to see him, I just need to put him on the DL and replace him. So why make me click a few more times to be able to make that happen?

It seems that I'm having to click on the manager home screen way too much to get back into what I was doing from another screen within the game. That screen has a lot of nice, useful links, but I shouldn't have to keep coming back to it time and time again. And I'm sorry, I just never could get into the FM/SI gameplay with the daily simming, and I think that's part of my issue as well. I just don't like it. For instance, I have to sit there and sim one day at a time to see if FA moves are made by other teams that I might want to respond to (dropped players, etc.). And the sign-and-release thing is killing me. I kept trying to sign a particular guy and would get no indication he signed with someone else, and then a day later, he'd show back up in the FA pool. And when I tried to sign him again, I could make an offer, but I'd get the "you've already made an offer to him, wait for his response" message. But he signed with someone else and got released, so I had to re-offer to him. And then again, no response, he'd get signed multiple times (but never by me), and it was lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. And I'd even get the "you've already made an offer" screen when making offers to players I haven't even attempted to sign! So the period between January 1 and spring training took forever to complete because I had to sim one day at a time, usually to see the guys I was trying to sign go elsewhere, get dropped, and then sign with yet another team, never once telling me they decided not to sign with me or why.

I want to like this game, but I think it's too massive for its own good and is buckling under its own weight. Between the different SION/HTML pages for the same information, and the interface/clicking issues described above, the in-game play is not nearly as fun as just setting up an historical sim and letting it go. But that's not really "playing."

[Buccaneer]

K, that's an excellent read. For fast-simmers like myself, playing a game of this genre demands a steady flow and rhythm without getting bogged down in unnecessary screens, excessive clicks and scrolls, information overload or tedious work. It's not about wanting a "simpler" game for a season can involve many steps or stages. That's why I was excited about adding in features like the expansion draft into my normal OOTP flow.

The User Interface can be a tricky thing, as we have discussed endlessly in the past 7 years. All UI, no matter how convoluted or weird, can become familiar in time. I recall the many complaints about the OOTP5 interface, as well as FM and FOF and Gothic. Now, some gamers that complained about the earlier interfaces want to go back, or vice versa. But beyond learning a new interface to where it becomes intuitive, is the process of what actually happens when a user makes his/her clicks. Do you dread opening up a screen for you know that it will not be fun to read or to work in? The flow and rhythm mentioned earlier assumes that we can get and process information quickly in order to make decisions. We can learn where the buttons and options are but does the information slow you down?

[MizzouRah]

Ksyrup,

I haven't started playing yet.. I'm only in 1912 and still having a ton of fun looking at players and whatnot... I hope to delve into the game sometime within a week or two and I'm definitly worried about what you are saying. OOTP 6.5 was so easy to get into a "flow" between simming and GM'ing.

[Ksyrup]

I'm finding that the interface is becoming familiar, and that's part of what is bringing me to the realization that I don't like it! For instance, I just learned to start using the right click when on a player's HTML page to quickly get to his SION page. That's great. But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess. What they should have done is created one set of screens for the in-game playing experience, and allowed those screens to print out reports that look like the HTML pages. Instead, we get both in the game and it's frustrating to have to go to both to get the totality of information and ability to make decisions that is separate from each.

If I go to a stat or league/manager/team home screen and click on the player, I get his HTML page. What if I want to see his real life stats? Gotta go to his SION page. If I want to edit him or make roster changes - that's not part of the HTML screen, that's either the player's SION page or the SION transactions screen. Why have a separate SION standings screen, but make the easiest league standings pages to get to all HTML pages? Why are there two separate links to league history - one that take you to HTML history pages, and the other from the SION league drop-down menu that give you both HTML pages and SION HoF/retired/current player links? There are a bunch of duplicative, redundant screens in this game, and the only purpose for them that I can see is to accomodate MP leagues. And that's fine, but like I said above, those should just be reports, not integrated screens within the game itself.

And then there's the quick-sim page thing, which completely baffles me.

[Cork]

I'm finding that the interface is becoming familiar, and that's part of what is bringing me to the realization that I don't like it! For instance, I just learned to start using the right click when on a player's HTML page to quickly get to his SION page. That's great. But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess. What they should have done is created one set of screens for the in-game playing experience, and allowed those screens to print out reports that look like the HTML pages. Instead, we get both in the game and it's frustrating to have to go to both to get the totality of information and ability to make decisions that is separate from each.

If I go to a stat or league/manager/team home screen and click on the player, I get his HTML page. What if I want to see his real life stats? Gotta go to his SION page. If I want to edit him or make roster changes - that's not part of the HTML screen, that's either the player's SION page or the SION transactions screen. Why have a separate SION standings screen, but make the easiest league standings pages to get to all HTML pages? Why are there two separate links to league history - one that take you to HTML history pages, and the other from the SION league drop-down menu that give you both HTML pages and SION HoF/retired/current player links? There are a bunch of duplicative, redundant screens in this game, and the only purpose for them that I can see is to accomodate MP leagues. And that's fine, but like I said above, those should just be reports, not integrated screens within the game itself.

And then there's the quick-sim page thing, which completely baffles me.

These things were discussed in depth during the beta testing and unfortunately Markus did not budge in many of the UI areas. It was frustrating at times, but since he is the driving force behind that game we were at his mercy. Ultimately the consumer will have the final say and if the series struggles, these types of issues will be the reason why.

-Cork

[Ksyrup]

Interesting. Well, then I'm glad I just cut and pasted these comments over there in response to a thread about fixing the UI. I don't think I'm alone in seeing the mess that was created by combining the SION and HTML pages, each with overlapping (redundant) information, yet each with its own set of unique (necessary) information.

[Young Drachma]

I have to say, after a couple of weeks with the game and now trying to get into actually playing the game as it is intended...I'm just not into it. I can't get into the flow of a game at all - either there's too much to do, and I'm finding myself ceding authority to the AI to manage the day-to-day stuff and keeping just roster moves for myself to manage, or I'm trying to take it all on and finding it way too tedious.

And I'm not really getting into the universe at all, not like when I just sim history and spend time sorting through it. I hate to say it, but it's the interface that's killing it for me, mostly. Having to click multiple times and scroll to get the information that the quick-sim screen provides is a big part of it. Markus apparently already nixed the idea of making that screen accessible other than for quick-simming, but I don't understand it at all. Taking us to the scores/schedule screen after the games have simmed is useless. Not only do I have to click a few times to get to what I want to look at, but it takes me out of the rhythm of the sim - if that quick-sim page would just stay up after the simming ends, I'd be able to quickly view standings and leaders, click on the teams/players I want to view from there, or just start simming again with the drop-down menu auto-sim feature. No need to go anywhere else but that page, unless I need to make changes to my team, which would be accessible directly from that screen.

And trying to make roster/FA moves is a pain in the ass - I'm constantly having to exit out of the screen I'm in and basically start over from the initial roster/FA screen because there's no easy way that I can see to get from the players I'm viewing back to the screen I started from. And then there are the screens where, for some reason, there is no ability to scroll through players, so I have to go to each one individually and click back out to get to the next one (minor leaguers on the transaction screen are this way). And when a player is injured, initially I thought it was pretty cool that the player pops up automatically, until I realized that there is no way to easily move from the player to the transaction screen without a few clicks. Am I missing something here? I'd rather have the transaction screen be the pop-up, so I can quickly make a roster move, and if I want to see a player or two, I have that option. But telling me the guy is injured for 4 weeks and then giving me his screen is redundant. I don't need to see him, I just need to put him on the DL and replace him. So why make me click a few more times to be able to make that happen?

It seems that I'm having to click on the manager home screen way too much to get back into what I was doing from another screen within the game. That screen has a lot of nice, useful links, but I shouldn't have to keep coming back to it time and time again. And I'm sorry, I just never could get into the FM/SI gameplay with the daily simming, and I think that's part of my issue as well. I just don't like it. For instance, I have to sit there and sim one day at a time to see if FA moves are made by other teams that I might want to respond to (dropped players, etc.). And the sign-and-release thing is killing me. I kept trying to sign a particular guy and would get no indication he signed with someone else, and then a day later, he'd show back up in the FA pool. And when I tried to sign him again, I could make an offer, but I'd get the "you've already made an offer to him, wait for his response" message. But he signed with someone else and got released, so I had to re-offer to him. And then again, no response, he'd get signed multiple times (but never by me), and it was lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. And I'd even get the "you've already made an offer" screen when making offers to players I haven't even attempted to sign! So the period between January 1 and spring training took forever to complete because I had to sim one day at a time, usually to see the guys I was trying to sign go elsewhere, get dropped, and then sign with yet another team, never once telling me they decided not to sign with me or why.

I want to like this game, but I think it's too massive for its own good and is buckling under its own weight. Between the different SION/HTML pages for the same information, and the interface/clicking issues described above, the in-game play is not nearly as fun as just setting up an historical sim and letting it go. But that's not really "playing."

I tend to think the massiveness leads to bugs that are so embedded and hidden that it leads to minor frustrations that bubble into really big ones.

I'm happy with its ambitiousness more than most, probably. But I won't deny that it's almost like going into a big supermarket with all of this stuff and going "damn, where do I start?"

[Ksyrup]

That's part of my issue with the game as well - the FM/SI open-ended, daily sim massiveness of it all. I don't want to highlight that over at OOTP, though, because I think that would detract from my main points, which I think are an issue by themselves. But I'll admit to not being a fan of the FM/EHM interfaces. I don't like the "where do I even begin?" feeling of their games. At least with OOTP, I know enough about the game from before that that's not too much of a problem. But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

[dcg12]

<TABLE class=tborder id=post2151852 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2151852 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #3b4b7f 1px solid">Copied from my reply to you at the OOTP forum

Ksyrup,

Please don't take this wrong but I think you and a lot of people who complain about the UI are making it harder than it is. For example you talk about having to "back out" of a screen to go to another. Why? In the example above where you go to the teams stats page (I'll assume batting stats) you can go straight to pitching stats, fielding stats plus 15 other reports by using the black dropdown in the upper right that says "select report". No need to back track.

You want to drop that .120 hitting ss the tab for "lineups and depth charts" is right there on the html page.

The constant harping about the UI is really starting to grate on me. While I agree that it is a lot more complex than 6.5 I find it a breeze to move around after just a short time spent with it.

I guess as with anything YMMV but I still think with a little looking around things are easier than you make them.

P.S. I didn't even mention the ability to set up bookmarks if all else fails.
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[KWhit]

I find that the icons on at the bottom of the screen can get to where I need to go in just one click (from anywhere) about 90% of the time. I have no real problems with the interface right now.

[KWhit]

But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

How would you suggest this work in a sport that has games every day? Players can get injured any day during the season, and therefore rosters may need to be reshuffled on any day of the week. Obviously, a FA can appear at any time (especially if you have roster limits set at the minor leagues), because the AI may have to release someone to sign someone.

[Cork]

I actually like the interface and find that the bottom row of icons are a great addition to this years version. I think if more people learned to use them, many of the UI complaints would dissapear.

-Cork

[MizzouRah]

That's part of my issue with the game as well - the FM/SI open-ended, daily sim massiveness of it all. I don't want to highlight that over at OOTP, though, because I think that would detract from my main points, which I think are an issue by themselves. But I'll admit to not being a fan of the FM/EHM interfaces. I don't like the "where do I even begin?" feeling of their games. At least with OOTP, I know enough about the game from before that that's not too much of a problem. But the daily simming, especially when, as a quick-simming interested in being GM, I have to sit there and babysit the FA pool to see if people are dropped (nevermind the sign-and-release bug/issue), is frustrating, tedious, and boring.

I've always been outspoken with the "SI" interface and how I feel the same, "where do I start" feeling. If you're a diehard fan of one of their games (FM, EHM, etc..) I can see where it gets to be second nature, but as a casual seasonal sport gamer, I like simplicity.

Who knows, once I start playing, I might love it.

[Ksyrup]

I responded to that post over at OOTP and I don't want to bring that discussion over here whole-cloth, so let me just say that I think I have a conceptual problem with the idea that the more options the UI gives us to get to information, the better. Especially with a game of this complexity, I believe fewer, better integrated options is the better way to go.

The bottom icons do not work well for me...one, I prefer drop-down menus, and two, for whatever reason, I can never remember that they are there, or what each is for unless I constantly hover over them to find out what they are for, which is a waste of time.

[Ksyrup]

How would you suggest this work in a sport that has games every day? Players can get injured any day during the season, and therefore rosters may need to be reshuffled on any day of the week. Obviously, a FA can appear at any time (especially if you have roster limits set at the minor leagues), because the AI may have to release someone to sign someone.

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

[KWhit]

The icons at the bottom are super easy to learn and use.

Want to change lineups and depthchart? Change your rotation? One click away from anywhere in the game.

Want to call up a minor leaguer? Ditto.

Want to check the free agent market? Ditto.

Check your finances? Change your team settings? Check emails/news? Change the league setup? Find a specific player in any league? All of these are just one click away from anywhere in the game.

I don't think the interface is perfect. But I think it is a Hell of a lot better than the interface in v4, v5, or v6.

[KWhit]

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

Ah. I see. can't really disagree with you there.

But dude. You gotta use the icons at the bottom of the screen. Just learn what they do and they will make your life SO much easier. They are pretty intuitive once you get that they're broken up into sections.

[Eaglesfan27]

The icons at the bottom are super easy to learn and use.

Want to change lineups and depthchart? Change your rotation? One click away from anywhere in the game.

Want to call up a minor leaguer? Ditto.

Want to check the free agent market? Ditto.

Check your finances? Change your team settings? Check emails/news? Change the league setup? Find a specific player in any league? All of these are just one click away from anywhere in the game.

I don't think the interface is perfect. But I think it is a Hell of a lot better than the interface in v4, v5, or v6.


Completely agree. I'm enjoying the interface and the game. There are still some flaws, but I'm getting my money's worth out of it.

[Ksyrup]

That might make it somewhat easier, although I'll admit to being put off by the combined HTML/SION pages within the game. And also, with the way the arrow buttons don't seem to work most of the time, or atl east, they don't seem to work consistently. I find myself trying to use them quite often because I can't seem to figure out how to get where I need to go, so I just try to "back out" of where I am and ultimately end up at a dead end or taking far more clicks to get where I was than it should have taken. I still don't understand the best way to get from viewing a player's SION page (or multiple player pages if I'm using the arrows) back to the transaction or roster or FA screen I started from. To go back to the transaction screen, instead of just exiting the player screen, is counter-intuitive to me, even if it would take the same amount of time. So instead, I find myself instinctively trying to back out of pretty much every screen.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this has to do with being so used to/comfortable with windowed screens that it's preventing me from understanding the concept of how this UI is supposed to work. If I was already at the transaction screen, and now I'm in the player screens, I feel like I need to go back to that transaction screen instead of "opening it again" - at least that's what I feel like I'm doing. And that's the part I don't get/understand. But I think that might be part of my problem. Maybe I'm having a breakthrough here...although I don't know how that will translate to me being able to get used to this game.

The other thing is there's simply too many ways to get to the same stuff. That makes the game feel overwhelmingly complex and the screens cluttered with unnecessary buttons/links, etc., that I will never use. Because once I figure out "how" I want to do something, I'm not going to use any other way. So all of those additional "things" on the screen are of no use.

[dcg12]

I think you just hit on what I was trying to explain. i just wasn't doing a good job of it. You're exactly right when you think of opening the page again that is how I have found to get around.

I do agree that at some point they need to streamline some ways of getting around because I just discovered that if you go to "league history" from the links on the right of the league home page the tab for championship teams is not at the top like it is if you go there from the drop down menu.

If they could clean up some redundency (sp?) they would have it made.

[Ksyrup]

II do agree that at some point they need to streamline some ways of getting around because I just discovered that if you go to "league history" from the links on the right of the league home page the tab for championship teams is not at the top like it is if you go there from the drop down menu.

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).

[dcg12]

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).



Agreed. I find this more frustrating than getting around the interface. The championship tab took me about 5 minutes of clicking around thinking the patch had screwed something up before I discovered that you get two different pages.

[Axxon]

Actually, I was referring to the period from January 1 to opening day. I'd rather see this done in stages, to avoid the tedium. Again, I just don't like the daily sim thing. During the season is not a problem - I expect for things to happen on a daily basis, and if I choose to sim weekly or monthly, then I'm foregoing those opportunities. But during the offseason, there's a better way to model it that may not be entirely realistic, but it works for purposes of gameplay.

You can always use the play until option. I use this to find the stages I want to play until and sometimes I specify the date manually on that screen. The sim times are pretty quick so this works well for me. I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about though.

For example, I just set up a season in 1976 and autoplayed it then chose expansion draft on the play until screen and simmed to that date, took over a team and viola, done. It wasn't that tedious.

[Axxon]

The bottom icons do not work well for me...one, I prefer drop-down menus, and two, for whatever reason, I can never remember that they are there, or what each is for unless I constantly hover over them to find out what they are for, which is a waste of time.

The day of the drop down even if you just accidently moused over the buttons is over. Yay!

I'm a sloppy mouser and the hours of frustration when trying to get around these auto opening menu's was brutal for me. Almost anything would be better than that so it's not that I dislike drop down menus I just despised those drop down menus.

[Axxon]

Not just that...there is no list of HoF, retired, or retired & active players on the league home page "history" link, but there is on the drop-down history link. It's stuff like that that drives me crazy. It took me - no lie - 20 solid minutes of looking at every screen I could think of to try to find the list of retired players. I finally realized there were two separate history links, and that they gave different information. Really, I don't get that at all. Those links should point to the same page, so even if there's duplicity in the ways to get there (which is a problem in and of itself, IMO), they at least give you the same stuff (a bigger, more frustrating problem).

Yep, that stumped me too. Finally found it more or less by accident.

[Ksyrup]

Man, comments like this one make reading the OOTP boards fun:

How can a game get such high reviews -- like a 5 out of 5 at Gamespot -- when it is missing an entire production element? I have played OOTP in the past and love the game. But now I'm thinking I should give Mogul another look. I don't know if I can pay $35 for a baseball game without MLB rosters or sound.

FWIW, the thread was about the game missing sound, so that was what his outrage was principally directed at.

I can't remember what thread it was in, but there was another one that started as a critique of the game and eventually morphed into a critique of baseball in general - how boring it was, etc. By the end of the post, I couldn't understand why the guy was even interested in the game in the first place. I did get a good laugh out of it, though.

[Young Drachma]

The OOTP boards are unplayable.

[Sweed]

That might make it somewhat easier, although I'll admit to being put off by the combined HTML/SION pages within the game. And also, with the way the arrow buttons don't seem to work most of the time, or atl east, they don't seem to work consistently. I find myself trying to use them quite often because I can't seem to figure out how to get where I need to go, so I just try to "back out" of where I am and ultimately end up at a dead end or taking far more clicks to get where I was than it should have taken. I still don't understand the best way to get from viewing a player's SION page (or multiple player pages if I'm using the arrows) back to the transaction or roster or FA screen I started from. To go back to the transaction screen, instead of just exiting the player screen, is counter-intuitive to me, even if it would take the same amount of time. So instead, I find myself instinctively trying to back out of pretty much every screen.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this has to do with being so used to/comfortable with windowed screens that it's preventing me from understanding the concept of how this UI is supposed to work. If I was already at the transaction screen, and now I'm in the player screens, I feel like I need to go back to that transaction screen instead of "opening it again" - at least that's what I feel like I'm doing. And that's the part I don't get/understand. But I think that might be part of my problem. Maybe I'm having a breakthrough here...although I don't know how that will translate to me being able to get used to this game.

The other thing is there's simply too many ways to get to the same stuff. That makes the game feel overwhelmingly complex and the screens cluttered with unnecessary buttons/links, etc., that I will never use. Because once I figure out "how" I want to do something, I'm not going to use any other way. So all of those additional "things" on the screen are of no use.

I've been reading your posts about the UI and have to agree with Kwhit's advice on the bottom buttons being a big help.

One other thing you posted is that you refuse to use the bookmarks. From reading your posts though, I can't tell if you know how it works in this version or not (If you do ignore my post :) ).

When you assign a bookmark it also gets a "F" button assigned so you get a keyboard shortcut. Default F1 = help. The first bookmark you make is assigned F2, the third F3, and so on. With this system you never have to go to the bookmark menu at the top of the screen, you only have to press your function keys. So, if you think about how you want your game organized you can arrange your function keys to fit your style of play. Of course I don't know your needs but you could do something like this

f1=help (default)
f2=manager screen
f3=standings
f4=league leaders
f5=transactions
etc..

You can create as many bookmarks as you like but the function keys only work from f2-f10 (f1 help cannot be changed).

Hope that is of some help.

[Buccaneer]

K, I think one of your points in regards to two screens for a player has always been there (at least back to v4). In understand how I play v5 so I can apply it to v2007, when I am in any of the non-html team screens and click on a player, I then have to click on 'HTML Report' to get a nice presentation of the player (which is preferred because it has everything I need in a readable format). I do, however, have issues with "in-game" browser" and would always prefer to use "external browser".

Sweed, that is good advice but I think if one uses or not use the F-keys, they will eventually get a good feel where everything is. My issue, however, is what those screens give you. I really don't know if this is part of the "UI" debate since it seems to be a mix of "where is that @%#$! button" vs "presentation".

[Buccaneer]

I think I have a conceptual problem with the idea that the more options the UI gives us to get to information, the better. Especially with a game of this complexity, I believe fewer, better integrated options is the better way to go.


The truest statement ever uttered on a gaming message board. Unfortunately, you and I are in the minority in our opinion on this.

[Ksyrup]

It seems so.

FWIW, I did play about 1.5 hours last night and did my best to use nothing but the bottom buttons with a few exceptions. It was definitely a better playing experience.

Bucc, since I know you were interested in the career I chose to start (afte a number of false starts), I decided to take on the Detroit Tigers starting in 1946. That was the year after they won the WS and then had a drought until 1968. I also chose that year because it side-steps the WWII issue. It would be nice if there was a way to mimic the loss of the players during WWII when doing a sim so that Ted Williams doesn't always end up beatin out Babe Ruth as the best player ever (at least in my sims). I like the "what if?" part of that, but in trying to do a faithful sim, the war issue is a tricky thing to deal with.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it progresses. I mainly let the computer do its thing the first year and we ended up at 8074 in 4th place, well off the lead. I made several trades in the offseason that I hope work out.

[MizzouRah]

Man, comments like this one make reading the OOTP boards fun:



FWIW, the thread was about the game missing sound, so that was what his outrage was principally directed at.

I can't remember what thread it was in, but there was another one that started as a critique of the game and eventually morphed into a critique of baseball in general - how boring it was, etc. By the end of the post, I couldn't understand why the guy was even interested in the game in the first place. I did get a good laugh out of it, though.

Anyone who mentions Baseball Mogul on the ootp forums should be banned for life from ever owning any baseball game again.

[Arles]

I want to reiterate the bookmarks recommendation. As someone that enjoys FM and the new OOTP, I can't imagine playing either game without using the bookmark feature. Especially in OOTP, I find I normally hit 7-8 screens throughout the year and having them bookmarked (and hot-keyed) makes the interface almost a non-issue.

The only minor issue I have is that the game goes back to the top player during the "shop player" if you check out a player card. That can be a little tedious if there are 4-5 guys you want to check as you have to keep scrolling down after each one. Outside of that, the use of custom filters and bookmarks make the need to click very rare when navigating.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The truest statement ever uttered on a gaming message board. Unfortunately, you and I are in the minority in our opinion on this.

Sounds kind of like my problem with overly complex website design.

[Ksyrup]

I want to reiterate the bookmarks recommendation. As someone that enjoys FM and the new OOTP, I can't imagine playing either game without using the bookmark feature. Especially in OOTP, I find I normally hit 7-8 screens throughout the year and having them bookmarked (and hot-keyed) makes the interface almost a non-issue.

The only minor issue I have is that the game goes back to the top player during the "shop player" if you check out a player card. That can be a little tedious if there are 4-5 guys you want to check as you have to keep scrolling down after each one. Outside of that, the use of custom filters and bookmarks make the need to click very rare when navigating.

Bookmarks are a non-starter for me, but I am getting used to trying to learn the buttons at the bottom, which are getting me to most of what I need pretty quickly.

Aside from the issue you raise, I'm frustrated that on the transaction screen and the trade screen, when you click on a player, there are no arrow that allow you to click through the players on the team like there are on the regular roster screen and some of the other screens. It's strange that the arrows are only on player screens depending on how you access the player screens.

[spleen1015]

I haven't read everything about this, so excuse the question. :)

Ksyrup, why won't you use the bookmarks? Point me to where you've posted it if you like.

[spleen1015]

Dola, I found it.

I get what you say, but bookmarking hotkeys access to screens. Once you use it for a while, you'll forget about all of the other ways.

[Ksyrup]

I just refuse to add another layer of clutter to what I already feel is a way-too-cluttered interface. There are already up to 4 or 5 different ways to get to certain pages, so I don't want to add yet another.

I guess the best I can say about the interface is that it is consistent with Markus' goal of providing a highly (although not maximum) customizable game by giving us the opportunity to make of the game what we want. For purposes of the actual game, this is a plus. As applied to the UI, I find the multiple options hindering my enjoyment of the game.

Someone suggested the icons at the bottom will get me where I want to go 90% of the time, and I am finding that to be the case so far. If I'm satisfied with that, I'll use it. But I'll be damned if I'm going to go through the exercise of essentally creating another layer of UI on top of what's already there. I'm already spending a ton of time putting in logos and uniforms and such every time I fire up a new game; I want to keep the administrative stuff to a minimum.

[Arles]

I guess you could make the same claim about IE/mozilla. There multiple ways to get to FOFC:

1. type the URL
2. click on a link from another site you use more (ie, GDS ;) )
3. Go to yahoo, search and then click the link

Still, I think adding a direct bookmark to the forum is by far the simplest way ;)

All that said, I understand your frustration with navigating in certain areas. Making interfaces is difficult for developers as there are so many camps of users (ranging from people who only want hotkeys to people that just want to use menus). I think if you give bookmarks a chance that you'll find they are just as useful as they are for browsers and the 10-20 seconds to set each up will save you 100-times that amount as you play.

[Ksyrup]

The internet's a blank page; bookmarks help to narrowly define your web universe. A game, OTOH, is not an open canvas - or at least, the UI shouldn't treat it like it is. The game has a pre-defined set of pages/views we can look at, and it is the responsibility of the developer(s) to determine the most efficient way to allow access to all of the pages/views/information within the game.

And yes, I know that was a way too serious response to your post. :p

[Buccaneer]

Bucc, since I know you were interested in the career I chose to start (afte a number of false starts), I decided to take on the Detroit Tigers starting in 1946. That was the year after they won the WS and then had a drought until 1968. I also chose that year because it side-steps the WWII issue. It would be nice if there was a way to mimic the loss of the players during WWII when doing a sim so that Ted Williams doesn't always end up beatin out Babe Ruth as the best player ever (at least in my sims). I like the "what if?" part of that, but in trying to do a faithful sim, the war issue is a tricky thing to deal with.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it progresses. I mainly let the computer do its thing the first year and we ended up at 8074 in 4th place, well off the lead. I made several trades in the offseason that I hope work out.

Of the 5 or 6 long careers I have played, two of them started in 1946 for the reasons you gave. I do, however, edit Ted Williams down to a 8/8/10 (from 8/10/10) so he won't win 13 MVPs in a row like he did the first time I played the Golden Age. He still is one of the best at the lowered ratings and most importantly, still commands a high salary.

One of the (key) things I am looking for is the FA market and financials. When I play v4, I have one house rule to not have the highest payroll in the league. If I see a top payroll team not active in FA and caused me to have a higher payroll, I have to shed salaries before the season starts. (This, by the way, was problematic when I started with the 1931 A's but it made me having to compete with the Yankees better.) Additionally, I also make sure all of the teams have plenty of cash on hand, which makes it nice since in the Golden Age, there are plently of good/great players to go around for the 16 teams.

Anyway, I would be curious to understand the financials that you set up and how they work as you move from season to season. I would be apt to mimic what we had in v5/6 since that offers a direct comparison. I've seen some posts about using real-life financials but I think that would create too much of a disadvantage for the AI teams. That's probably in line with my abhorance of using the recalc option.

The other thing I would be interested in seeing is how the Golden Age numbers compare to what I'm used to. In other words, does it become a pitcher's league by the mid-50s with about 10-15 dominant SP? Probably along the same line is how it handles the every-present "too many MR" issue. There are tons of highly rated MRs coming out Lahman for the Golden Age and I think it becomes irrelevant since 1) the AI teams use MRs more frequently and 2) every team has several good/great MRs since there are enough for everyone to have.

I've got to read more dynasties since my biggest gripe has been with the convoluted screens. I want to see how dynasty writers have been telling their story with such screens.

Good luck.

[Ksyrup]

I'm trying to play as close to reality as I can, so I'm not using free agency, other than free agents who are let go by their teams. I'm just relying on the rookies being placed on their original teams, FA acquisitions, and trades to build my team. I'm doing that for 2 reasons - one, I want it to mimic real life as much as possible, and two, I think it will help me get through seasons faster without FA (at least until the mid-70s, if I make it that far).

I haven't edited any players' stats, but I can see what you mean about Williams. He's been great every year so far (I'm about to start 1949). And that's a problem when he's on Boston and I'm playing Detroit!

So far, I've had 3 decent seasons but no playoffs yet. Injuries are killing me, and I've got them set to low. Three of my best players (Dick Wakefield, Newhouser, and Dizzy Trout) have been out for extended periods of time - Newhouser was out for 11 months in 1947, then came back to win the CY Award in 1948; I just lost Dizzy Trout for 12 months, and Wakefield has been out 3-6 months 3 separate times.

One thing this game desperately needs that I'm going to post over at the OOTP boards is the "freeze" option that FOF has for positions. I'm basically leaving the day-to-day lineup/rotation settings to the AI, but when I make a specific move with the intention of having a particular person play (say, I trade my old 3B and bring up a rookie to take his spot), the AI almost never "gets it" and puts someone else in at 3B, so I end up having to take over. But that means now, I'm responsible for setting everything, which I don't want. If I could just stick that rookie 3B in the lineup, hit a button to freeze him in the lineup, and then let the AI set everything around him like we can do for FOF, that would be ideal. As it stands, it's a pain in the butt to make this happen because, in my experience, the AI goes out of its way to play vets, even putting them at positions they aren't very good at when a younger, less experienced player would make more sense - and is what I want.

[BigPapi]

I am absolutely amazed at the inability of the AI to evaluate and manage the minor leagues in this game- and it has been a problem for several iterations of OOTP. And ironically, given all the interace issues, is ultimately why I put OOTP 2006 down and never picked it up again last year.

Let me give a few examples just to drive my point home. I only play with real players to start my universe- it helps me get immersed- but it aslo helps me follow quirky AI decisions because I recognize some of the game's better players by name. So, with an imported Cubbyfan Roster from last year as the background- check out some of the AI moves- and this is BEFORE the colossal mess that is the amateur draft begins:

Not even one week into the season- or before January 10th- listen to a who's who of prospects I can snag as a free agent after being released by the parent club:

Homer Bailey, Phillip Hughes, Matt Garza and Yovani Gallardo...I'll stop there for now. All these guys are Baseball Prospectus top 20 material- and all are appropriately rated in the roster set. In fact, the game succesfully recognizes these gentlemen as blue chip material as they are ALL on the top 100 prospects list as defined by the AI itself.....And yet- it releases them before play even begins for the 2007 season???? How is this possible- and how does this type of AI behavior go unnoticed during testing. This type of thing is not unique to this roster set- as once the league is turned over several times 40 or 50 years into the sim- I still see this sort of behavior.

First round draft picks are routinely being released in the September following their draft year- even with no roster limits set at ANY level- and after putting up great numbers at whatever level the AI places them. Is the AI so bad that it releases these guys over waiver wire fodder at every level? I simply cannot fathom how this is so hard to either diagnose and fix...I would blame it on my extensive feeder league system- but frankly, as I said- I saw this same behavior last year......anybody have any ideas how to remedy this- cause it's an absolute game killer for me.

[Ksyrup]

You know what's strange is that I've seen the same thing, but I am being effectively prevented from signing these guys because of what I believe to be part of the sign-and-release bug/issue I've seen. I started my career in 1946, and in that year (more than others) and each year after, there have been several very good prospects available as FAs. But, when I try to sign them, I am unable to. They take someone else's offer. Which is fine, except the next day or two later, they are back on the FA market, regardless of whether they signed a minor or major league contract. So I take another shot at them...same thing happens, but a different team signs them. Depending on the player, this may only happen a couple of times, or it may happen upward of 10-12 times. And not once have I been successful in getting them to accept my offer. I even tested this by offering a solid major league contract to a guy who only wanted a minor league contract, and he still took someone else's minor league contract.

I don't know if you've actually gone through the process of signing these guys who are available or you're just seeing them but purposely avoiding them, but so far in my universe, the only real issue this is causing me is the fact that some very good players are being dispersed around the league and somewhat altering history by coming up through the wrong team's system, and not the team they should be playing for.

[Icy]

bigPapi, first i would post that at the OOTP boards to call Markus' and beta team attention. I know both him and the beta team expended a lot of time testing and tweaking the code to fix the sign/release issue but of course it can be improved if more guys like you can offer more feedback about it. A new patch is being developed so any documented suggestion/feedback is welcome.

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

[Ksyrup]

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

This is also an issue, unfortunately. It appears that the % stats/rating feature isn't really taking stats into account as much as it should be. A number of us have reported to them an issue where good pitchers are being demoted/released immediately following good-to-great seasons, simply because of a dip in ratings. Some of them are maybe 1-2 points in stuff, for example. And even where a guy's ratings drop off considerably, it would be rare for a team to completely give up on a guy coming off of a 20 win season, say, without at least throwing him out there next year, seeing bad results, and THEN dumping him. But here, they're getting dumped during the off-season, no other team is willing to even sign them (another problem that wouldn't occur IRL), and then they retire in a year or so. I had a guy who was 2-time defending Cy Young Award winner dumped into FA the following off-season, never got picked up by anyone, and then retired the next year.

[BigPapi]

bigPapi, first i would post that at the OOTP boards to call Markus' and beta team attention. I know both him and the beta team expended a lot of time testing and tweaking the code to fix the sign/release issue but of course it can be improved if more guys like you can offer more feedback about it. A new patch is being developed so any documented suggestion/feedback is welcome.

My only suggestion by now is to play with the AI evaluating options, maybe putting more % on the stats or more on the ratings and maybe you can find the right spot. This feature was in 6.5, then removed in 2006 and back in 2007 by popular request, and i find it really powerful to tell the AI how to behave.

Icy,

Thanks for the tips- this item is TT'd- so I am sure Markus will look at it after his much needed break- I am just exasperated that it still exists 5 and 6 iterations into this game's life cycle....I really WANT to love this game- and I think it's a testament to Markus that this game is so apparently complex that these issues are not as easy to fix as they would seem- but they HAVE to be fixed- because to my way of seeing things- all the other goodies don't mean anything if the game can't make sound personnel decisions. Concerning the AI evaluation options- like Ksyrup- these seem broken to me- I have set it to 100% ratings- and 100% stats and all kinds of combos in between with no luck...You say they seem to be working for you?

Ksyrup-

You know- it's interesting- I am not even able to MAKE an offer to these guys- a lot of the time they are getting signed the same day by another team- and never show up on the waiver wire or free agents list. In fact, I am only able to diagnose that they were available at all from looking at the draft results report and going down the list of first round draft picks to see many were released in late September. I have noticed that there seems to be a correlation between first rounders being released and their initial talent level. It seems that the top 5 picks or so are able in many cases to get themselves promoted to AA or rarely even AAA in their first season after being drafted. Almost without exception these guys are being released for some reason- possibly roster restriction- or maybe they are in over their head- so the AI releases them instead of demoting them. Which brings up a question I have: No matter what I set the minor league player limit to- the AI will ONLY carry 25 guys- whether I set it to 50 or unlimited...Anybody have any idea why?- This might be part of my problem- but I don't know how to fix it- and the AI should still know better than to release it's best prospects no matter what the roster limit is.

[Young Drachma]

The game flies when you turn off facegen. I mean, it moved fast anyway. But it moves a ton faster when you just disable it. I only have it off until I start actually playing my dynasty rather than just getting a history. But I didn't realize how much faster it would go this way.

[Ksyrup]

There must be potholes all over the OF at Briggs/Tigers Stadium, because in addition to the multiple long-term injuries that killed Dick Wakefield's career for me (I just traded him because he's a shell of himself), I've just lost 3 more OF during 1949 to 4, 6 and 12 month injuries. I'm at the trade deadline and one of them will be back in about 3 weeks, but I've only got 3 OF in my entire organization right now! Ridiculous!!

[yabanci]

This is also an issue, unfortunately. It appears that the % stats/rating feature isn't really taking stats into account as much as it should be. A number of us have reported to them an issue where good pitchers are being demoted/released immediately following good-to-great seasons, simply because of a dip in ratings. Some of them are maybe 1-2 points in stuff, for example. And even where a guy's ratings drop off considerably, it would be rare for a team to completely give up on a guy coming off of a 20 win season, say, without at least throwing him out there next year, seeing bad results, and THEN dumping him. But here, they're getting dumped during the off-season, no other team is willing to even sign them (another problem that wouldn't occur IRL), and then they retire in a year or so. I had a guy who was 2-time defending Cy Young Award winner dumped into FA the following off-season, never got picked up by anyone, and then retired the next year.

out of curiosity, what AI evaluation options are you using?

[bselig]

I gave in and picked this up today, after skipping 2006. Does anyone have an alternate DL link for the redsox45 template or can host it(only 3 megs)? it's down at the link from the thread in the OOTP forums

[lynchjm24]

I have read through most, but not all of this thread, so forgive me if I missed it anywhere, but has anybody actually played this game yet, or are you all just simming historical stuff?

I would love to know how it is to play a fictional league. How is the player development? How are the drafts? How is the AI when it comes to lineups, rotations, trading, drafting, etc?

I appreciate how this game appeals to historical simmers, but I never do that, so I am curious how it fares as a true text sim game. ;)

I'm playing it fictionally. The players seem to develop a little too quickly. The drafts are mostly ok, except for the AI undervaluing the stud middle relievers that are available.

The lineups and rotations aren't horrible, except for the fact it will use your backup catcher as a backup at other positions or DH.... when the backup catcher should never be used in this fashion.

I have trading on very hard and still usually can find a deal that I'll take when I shop a player.

[Ksyrup]

out of curiosity, what AI evaluation options are you using?

Are you referring to the percentages? Right now I'm using 10/50/30/10, but I've tried all sorts of different combinations.

[Ksyrup]

I'm playing it fictionally. The players seem to develop a little too quickly. The drafts are mostly ok, except for the AI undervaluing the stud middle relievers that are available.

With the historical rosters, I'm finding that the AI is consistently giving 4-5 star current and potential ratings to relievers who weren't very good IRL, and who pitched maybe a couple of years at most in the majors. It has gotten to where I see oneof these guys, I automatically know to avoid them. Kinda like a reverse star rating system for MRs.

[bselig]

Ok, I got the template and after an hour or so of downloading/setting stuff up I'm ready to go. But I have a question about minors. Is the development with the minors the same as with the reserve(which would be disappointing) and aren't I going to run out of roster spots pretty quick with just one level of minors?

[HeavyReign]

Found this while looking at the almanac...in 1989 Kirk McCaskill throws back to back no hitters.


<table class="lpo" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="911"><tbody><tr><td class="hsdl" width="120">Date</td><td class="hscl" width="200">Player</td><td class="hsnl">No-Hitters</td><td class="hl"> </td></tr> <tr><td class="slg">07-15-1977</td><td class="slg">Pat Zachry (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_896.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 0 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Houston (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_18.html) while playing for Cincinnati (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_17.html) (PERFECT GAME)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">06-25-1978</td><td class="sl">Dan Schatzeder (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_721.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 0 BB and 3 Strikeouts versus St. Louis (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_26.html) while playing for Montreal (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_20.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">05-17-1979</td><td class="slg">Darrell Jackson (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_961.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 6 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Baltimore (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_1.html) while playing for Boston (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_2.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">05-17-1979</td><td class="sl">Rick Waits (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_847.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 7 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Toronto (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_14.html) while playing for Cleveland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_5.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-24-1979</td><td class="slg">Rick Wise (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_883.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 3 BB and 2 Strikeouts versus Oakland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_11.html) while playing for Texas (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_13.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">10-07-1980</td><td class="sl">Fernando Valenzuela (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1302.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 3 BB and 12 Strikeouts versus San Francisco (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_25.html) while playing for Philadelphia (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_22.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-23-1981</td><td class="slg">J.R. Richard (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_683.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 5 BB and 7 Strikeouts versus Pittsburgh (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_23.html) while playing for Houston (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_18.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">09-02-1981</td><td class="sl">Jim Wright (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1046.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 1 BB and 9 Strikeouts versus Cleveland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_5.html) while playing for Oakland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_11.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">08-03-1983</td><td class="slg">Sid Fernandez (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1657.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 2 BB and 8 Strikeouts versus Cincinnati (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_17.html) while playing for Los Angeles (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_19.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">08-31-1983</td><td class="sl">Eric Wilkins (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1170.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 4 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Minnesota (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_8.html) while playing for Boston (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_2.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">09-10-1983</td><td class="slg">Don Sutton (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_789.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 2 BB and 7 Strikeouts versus Atlanta (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_15.html) while playing for Los Angeles (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_19.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">09-15-1983</td><td class="sl">Atlee Hammaker (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1366.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 1 BB and 7 Strikeouts versus Montreal (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_20.html) while playing for Philadelphia (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_22.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">05-01-1985</td><td class="slg">Atlee Hammaker (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1366.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 2 BB and 8 Strikeouts versus Montreal (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_20.html) while playing for Philadelphia (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_22.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">07-18-1985</td><td class="sl">Lee Tunnell (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1590.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 6 BB and 7 Strikeouts versus Cleveland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_5.html) while playing for Chicago (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_4.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">07-21-1985</td><td class="slg">Joe Niekro (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_601.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 4 BB and 5 Strikeouts versus Texas (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_13.html) while playing for Detroit (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_6.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">08-24-1985</td><td class="sl">Larry McWilliams (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_978.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 4 BB and 10 Strikeouts versus San Diego (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_24.html) while playing for New York (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_21.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-19-1986</td><td class="slg">Jack Morris (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_582.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 1 BB and 10 Strikeouts versus Chicago (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_16.html) while playing for New York (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_21.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">10-05-1986</td><td class="sl">Kirk McCaskill (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1966.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 2 BB and 6 Strikeouts versus New York (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_21.html) while playing for Pittsburgh (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_23.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">07-09-1987</td><td class="slg">Tim Leary (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1386.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 1 BB and 9 Strikeouts versus Detroit (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_6.html) while playing for Anaheim (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_3.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">06-16-1989</td><td class="sl">Kirk McCaskill (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1966.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 4 BB and 5 Strikeouts versus Houston (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_18.html) while playing for San Diego (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_24.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-21-1989</td><td class="slg">Kirk McCaskill (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1966.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 3 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Los Angeles (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_19.html) while playing for San Diego (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_24.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">07-15-1989</td><td class="sl">Mark Gardner (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2483.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 1 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus San Francisco (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_25.html) while playing for Pittsburgh (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_23.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">05-22-1992</td><td class="slg">Kevin Appier (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2518.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 1 BB and 6 Strikeouts versus Cleveland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_5.html) while playing for Seattle (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_12.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">05-29-1992</td><td class="sl">Alex Fernandez (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2677.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 0 BB and 3 Strikeouts versus Milwaukee (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_9.html) while playing for New York (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_10.html) (PERFECT GAME)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-14-1992</td><td class="slg">Frank Seminara (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_3117.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 0 BB and 0 Strikeouts versus Anaheim (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_3.html) while playing for Kansas City (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_7.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">05-08-1993</td><td class="sl">Mark Leiter (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2713.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 3 BB and 8 Strikeouts versus Toronto (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_14.html) while playing for Baltimore (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_1.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">06-11-1993</td><td class="slg">Kevin Gross (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1671.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 5 BB and 4 Strikeouts versus Texas (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_13.html) while playing for Cleveland (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_5.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">06-30-1993</td><td class="sl">Charles Nagy (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2743.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 2 BB and 8 Strikeouts versus Colorado (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_169.html) while playing for Atlanta (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_15.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">09-13-1994</td><td class="slg">Ken Hill (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2405.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 4 BB and 6 Strikeouts versus San Diego (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_24.html) while playing for San Francisco (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_25.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">07-20-1995</td><td class="sl">Darryl Kile (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2898.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 2 BB and 9 Strikeouts versus Florida (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_170.html) while playing for Los Angeles (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_19.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">08-16-1995</td><td class="slg">Robert Person (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_3638.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 3 BB and 6 Strikeouts versus Florida (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_170.html) while playing for Atlanta (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_15.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr><tr><td class="sl">05-19-1996</td><td class="sl">Bud Black (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_1351.html)</td><td class="sl">9 IP, 2 BB and 1 Strikeouts versus Seattle (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_12.html) while playing for Baltimore (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_1.html)</td><td class="sl"> </td></tr><tr><td class="slg">07-19-1997</td><td class="slg">Chuck Finley (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/players/player_2069.html)</td><td class="slg">9 IP, 2 BB and 9 Strikeouts versus St. Louis (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_26.html) while playing for Cincinnati (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Brian.BRIAN-1/My%20Documents/Sports%20Interactive/OOTP%20Baseball%202007/data/saved_games/New%20Game%202.lg/news/html/teams/team_17.html)</td><td class="slg"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

[bselig]

Ok, just getting into this and didn't play 06. A couple little things I miss:

No text scouting reports. Even though they were repetitive and pointless for gameplay, I liked reading stuff like 'Ruth is a tremendous slugger!' or whatever

I haven't yet been able to find a screen that lists your lineup alongside their triple crown stats, like the old OOTP and in mogul. I always found that an intuitive way to get an idea of your roster

[RainMaker]

What would a 30 second spot on say, the late edition of Baseball Tonight run?

The problem isn't advertising. OOTP 2007 is way too complicated for the average gamer. Heck, it's gotten so tedious that even hardcore gamers are taking a pass at it. The average sports fan watching Baseball Tonight wants to turn on his 360 and start playing, not spend 2 months behind his computer setting up his "universe".

But it's not why the game hasn't sold well. The reason it hasn't sold well is because the game sucks now and is nothing like OOTP. I still can't fathom why SI would team up with Markus only to completely re-do his succesful game. I'm not a 6.5 fanboy, but it was a good game, and needed a strong year or two of development to be a fantastic game.

Here is where SI went wrong. First, they just don't understand baseball and the fact it's primarily an American sport. The game was clearly catered to target a more international audience, which alienated your US fan base. I would say a majority of the OOTP fans liked setting up a league and playing it. They didn't need 5 others running across the world, they didn't need complex minor leagues in each one, and they didn't need all the crazy options that are available in OOTP. I'm sure there are people who wanted those features, but it's not a large percent of the owners.

The next problem is that re-writing the game to include all these new features, the new interface, and everything else caused neglect into the parts of the game that OOTP fans loved. The roster management AI is horrendous and still worse than 6.5. The in-game AI is better, but still no better than 6.5 either. It takes much longer to setup leagues, lineups, rosters, and everything else that was in 6.5. You basically built the universe crap at the expense of gameplay AI, roster management AI, and usability. Basically you killed everything that made OOTP good, then wonder why no one buys it. You would have been better off making a few adjustments to 6.5 and putting out 2006/2007 under a different title. The new versions are nothing like OOTP despite the name on the product.

But the biggest flaw is that the game just isn't fun anymore. I feel like I'm doing work and not having fun when I play. Menus are reduntant, management is overly tedious, and one small mess-up can send your universe into a downward spiral. I'm sure some people can really pour their hearts into the game and enjoy it, but I just can't invest that much time and effort into something that is supposed to be fun.

Here is my suggestion for the folks at SI to save this franchise.

1) Dump this universe crap. Yes it's a novel idea and if implemented correctly could be a lot of fun. It's just too complicated for the averague user though, and the sheer number of variables involved in it makes it near impossible to produce realistic results in a simulation environment. It's not your fault, it's just hard to build an AI that can manage rosters in a small league with 1 minor league team to one that has 30 teams and 5 minor league levels. Stick to the MLB format with 3, maybe 4 minor league teams. Yes it will piss off a few people who have lavish plans for global baseball leagues, but it will bring back the core of the gamers who loved playing the game.

2) Quit listening to the moronic suggestions of 4-5 people on the OOTP board who have ridiculous ideas for the game. They are such a small percentage of the fan base, yet they seem to implement every friggin idea they come up with.

"Lets set it up so I can control the bowel movements of my AA shortstop"

"Sounds great, we'll put the in-game AI on the backburner"

3) Ditch the stupid interface and go back to what worked. It's a game, not quantum physics. I shouldn't need to go through 11 pages to change my closer.

Basically my suggestion is to abort this montrocity and go back to what worked. Not saying work off 6.5, just saying to build it in that mold and add the features we wanted in it such as better stat tracking, better AI, and better league play. The game had a great niche in the simulation market, and a great community. Markus is much better off without SI.

[lynchjm24]

With the historical rosters, I'm finding that the AI is consistently giving 4-5 star current and potential ratings to relievers who weren't very good IRL, and who pitched maybe a couple of years at most in the majors. It has gotten to where I see oneof these guys, I automatically know to avoid them. Kinda like a reverse star rating system for MRs.

The stars being broken on MR's is a bit of a separate issue I believe. I don't think the AI uses the stars in their evaluation anyway... at least I hope not.

[lynchjm24]

The problem isn't advertising. OOTP 2007 is way too complicated for the average gamer. Heck, it's gotten so tedious that even hardcore gamers are taking a pass at it. The average sports fan watching Baseball Tonight wants to turn on his 360 and start playing, not spend 2 months behind his computer setting up his "universe".

But it's not why the game hasn't sold well. The reason it hasn't sold well is because the game sucks now and is nothing like OOTP. I still can't fathom why SI would team up with Markus only to completely re-do his succesful game. I'm not a 6.5 fanboy, but it was a good game, and needed a strong year or two of development to be a fantastic game.

Here is my suggestion for the folks at SI to save this franchise.


2) Quit listening to the moronic suggestions of 4-5 people on the OOTP board who have ridiculous ideas for the game.


Basically my suggestion is to abort this montrocity and go back to what worked. Markus is much better off without SI.


There is a lot of truth in what you've posted here. I am not quite sure that I don't like 2007 yet. It's much better then 2006, but the more I play the more red flags I'm starting to see.

I have thought for a long time that OOTP has listened to a vocal lunatic fringe, it's unfortunate some of what they have wraught. Also SI has clearly miscalculated that the person that plays OOTP is looking for the same thing as the person that plays FM. FM players enjoy the one day at a time sim - I think the majority of OOTP players are looking to be able to get many years into a league and look at the history. That was the beauty of OOTP 4-6.5, the ease in which you could create a long history and enjoy a league as it developed. What OOTP needed to do was make the AI better so that the game would actually be a challenge on a single player basis. Instead they have created a game where the cost to learn it is so high that most new players are going to invest the time. If you've never played EHM or FM or OOTP, I can't imagine how steep the learning curve would be for someone. I've played all three and still can't figure out where some things are in the game.

Hopefully if OOTP doesn't work out commercially for SI, Marcus still owns 6.5 and maybe can go back to improving that.

I also hope that some of the OOTP lunatic fringe has learned that you need to be careful what you wish for.

[Ksyrup]

I completely agree with the universe issue and the fact that even if you want to have it in the game, the game is not to the point where it can produce realistic results with all of these moving parts (international leagues, minor league, major and minor independent leagues, feeder leagues, etc.). I am slowly beginning to enjoy the game, but that's probably because (a) I'm only playing historical and not having to deal with the separate issues the fictional side has, and (b) I'm quick simming and not really seeing some of the more detail-oriented problems of the game.

[Buccaneer]

That was the beauty of OOTP 4-6.5, the ease in which you could create a long history and enjoy a league as it developed.

QFT (esp. if you are a fast-simmer).

[Buccaneer]

I completely agree with the universe issue and the fact that even if you want to have it in the game, the game is not to the point where it can produce realistic results with all of these moving parts (international leagues, minor league, major and minor independent leagues, feeder leagues, etc.). I am slowly beginning to enjoy the game, but that's probably because (a) I'm only playing historical and not having to deal with the separate issues the fictional side has, and (b) I'm quick simming and not really seeing some of the more detail-oriented problems of the game.

That's the only way I have ever played OOTP and never had any desire to play it any other way in SP (primarily because I love historical and there always have been problems playing fictional). It seems to work okay if you implement some house rules and ignore some of AI stuff. I had been looking for a version that would simply improve in how I play, mainly reducing the house rules. Instead, we get a game that has everything possible in there and I still don't know if it would improve in how I play. I know my game is in there (as Ksyrup is finding out), it comes down to my tolerance in seeing everyone else's game there too.

[LionsFan10]

I've got a question. I've downloaded a few of the facegen packs off of PadreFan's website because there is some really good work on there ... but none of the .zips came with a read-me. Where, exactly do I drop these .png files to incorporate the new stuff?

It's a jersey/cap pack, to help make things clear.

[Marc Duffy]

But it's not why the game hasn't sold well. The reason it hasn't sold well is because the game sucks now and is nothing like OOTP. I still can't fathom why SI would team up with Markus only to completely re-do his succesful game. I'm not a 6.5 fanboy, but it was a good game, and needed a strong year or two of development to be a fantastic game.


Just wanted to say here that the team that made OOTP 1 to 6.5 are the very same team that made 2006 and 2007. 'SI' didn't re-do anything - Markus and his team led the project as per normal



Here is where SI went wrong. First, they just don't understand baseball and the fact it's primarily an American sport. The game was clearly catered to target a more international audience, which alienated your US fan base. I would say a majority of the OOTP fans liked setting up a league and playing it. They didn't need 5 others running across the world, they didn't need complex minor leagues in each one, and they didn't need all the crazy options that are available in OOTP. I'm sure there are people who wanted those features, but it's not a large percent of the owners.


Again SI didnt get involved in the direction of the game. Markus drove the game forward and it's all his great vision (as it was before). SI provided the tools and framework to allow Markus to carry out his vision.



The next problem is that re-writing the game to include all these new features, the new interface, and everything else caused neglect into the parts of the game that OOTP fans loved. The roster management AI is horrendous and still worse than 6.5. The in-game AI is better, but still no better than 6.5 either. It takes much longer to setup leagues, lineups, rosters, and everything else that was in 6.5. You basically built the universe crap at the expense of gameplay AI, roster management AI, and usability. Basically you killed everything that made OOTP good, then wonder why no one buys it. You would have been better off making a few adjustments to 6.5 and putting out 2006/2007 under a different title. The new versions are nothing like OOTP despite the name on the product.


The UI can be attributed to SI but you misunderstand fundamentally that it's the same guys making this game that made 6.5.




2) Quit listening to the moronic suggestions of 4-5 people on the OOTP board who have ridiculous ideas for the game. They are such a small percentage of the fan base, yet they seem to implement every friggin idea they come up with.

"Lets set it up so I can control the bowel movements of my AA shortstop"

"Sounds great, we'll put the in-game AI on the backburner"



I'm not sure I understand how you can say they are a small % of the fanbase?



3) Ditch the stupid interface and go back to what worked. It's a game, not quantum physics. I shouldn't need to go through 11 pages to change my closer.

Basically my suggestion is to abort this montrocity and go back to what worked. Not saying work off 6.5, just saying to build it in that mold and add the features we wanted in it such as better stat tracking, better AI, and better league play. The game had a great niche in the simulation market, and a great community. Markus is much better off without SI.

Markus has come out and said publically that a complete rewrite was much needed in order to allow him to take the game forward. You make a lot of assumptions and I believe that on many counts you are very wrong but I respect your opinion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not sure I understand how you can say they are a small % of the fanbase?

I know there's been some talk that sales have been less than hoped for, but if "4-5 people" isn't a small percentage of the fanbase, then things sound a lot worse than anybody thought. ;)

[Marc Duffy]

I know there's been some talk that sales have been less than hoped for, but if "4-5 people" isn't a small percentage of the fanbase, then things sound a lot worse than anybody thought. ;)
:) point taken

[Ksyrup]

Well, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can play this game and feel like I'm actually "playing" it is to micromanage. I've tried being hands off and just acting as GM, and unforunately, the lack of ability to make isolated lineup moves that the AI won't go back and change after I'm done has killed my ability to play at the macro level, which is really what I wanted to do. It's either all or nothing with this game, which is too bad.

So, after 7 years of my Tigers career that began in 1946, I decided to learn from my mistake and took on an expansion team challenge, the 1962 Houston Colt 45s. Another thing killing my interest is the sign-and-release bug, as I targeted 10 FAs and had 8 of them repeatedly sign with another team and end up as FAs the next day, only to have me make round after round of offers, have them rejected (or completely ignored because of the bug, I can't tell which), then show up in FA, until finally, each one just stopped showing up in FA anymore. Extremely frustrating and a waste of my time. Anyway, playing hands on only got me to the trade deadline of 1962, and I've got an expansion team sitting in a tie for 1st at 61-43.

I'm having a hard time finding a balance between micromanaging and kicking the AI's ass, and macromanaging and feeling like I'm actually contributing to the success/failure of my team.

[MizzouRah]

Well, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can play this game and feel like I'm actually "playing" it is to micromanage. I've tried being hands off and just acting as GM, and unforunately, the lack of ability to make isolated lineup moves that the AI won't go back and change after I'm done has killed my ability to play at the macro level, which is really what I wanted to do. It's either all or nothing with this game, which is too bad.

So, after 7 years of my Tigers career that began in 1946, I decided to learn from my mistake and took on an expansion team challenge, the 1962 Houston Colt 45s. Another thing killing my interest is the sign-and-release bug, as I targeted 10 FAs and had 8 of them repeatedly sign with another team and end up as FAs the next day, only to have me make round after round of offers, have them rejected (or completely ignored because of the bug, I can't tell which), then show up in FA, until finally, each one just stopped showing up in FA anymore. Extremely frustrating and a waste of my time. Anyway, playing hands on only got me to the trade deadline of 1962, and I've got an expansion team sitting in a tie for 1st at 61-43.

I'm having a hard time finding a balance between micromanaging and kicking the AI's ass, and macromanaging and feeling like I'm actually contributing to the success/failure of my team.

I'm going to kick myself if the AI screws with lineups and your team. Have you tried that workaround that worked before the patch?

If after my historical portion, the game is as tedius to play as the GM as you say, I think I'll be done with ootp and will load 6.5 back up once again for good.

[Ksyrup]

What's the work-around? I hadn't even gotten to really playing the game before the first patch, so it's likely I missed it entirely. Although, in bringing this issue up over at the OOTP boards, no one seems particularly concerned about it. I can't understand how people would enjoy/want to play out games in a career sim-oriented game based on a sport that has upwards of 180 games in a season. I can understand playing out a few here and there to get a flavor for the game and your team, but do people really play out the majority of their games AND make it through 10/20/50 years of history? From my experience playing arcade-style games, the best I could do in a game based on anything other than football was maybe 2 years, at tops. So the idea of a career sim seems at odds with being that hands-on. I've heard of free time, but that goes above and beyond anything I could commit to!

[Young Drachma]

Well, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can play this game and feel like I'm actually "playing" it is to micromanage. I've tried being hands off and just acting as GM, and unforunately, the lack of ability to make isolated lineup moves that the AI won't go back and change after I'm done has killed my ability to play at the macro level, which is really what I wanted to do. It's either all or nothing with this game, which is too bad.

So, after 7 years of my Tigers career that began in 1946, I decided to learn from my mistake and took on an expansion team challenge, the 1962 Houston Colt 45s. Another thing killing my interest is the sign-and-release bug, as I targeted 10 FAs and had 8 of them repeatedly sign with another team and end up as FAs the next day, only to have me make round after round of offers, have them rejected (or completely ignored because of the bug, I can't tell which), then show up in FA, until finally, each one just stopped showing up in FA anymore. Extremely frustrating and a waste of my time. Anyway, playing hands on only got me to the trade deadline of 1962, and I've got an expansion team sitting in a tie for 1st at 61-43.

I'm having a hard time finding a balance between micromanaging and kicking the AI's ass, and macromanaging and feeling like I'm actually contributing to the success/failure of my team.

How deep are your minors? If your lowest level is set to no limit for the whole league, it should get rid of the sign and release bug. At least, it did for me.

[Ksyrup]

I've had varying problems with the limits. I have only one level - AAA. Right now, I have it set to 35, which is the recommended. However, in a previous league, where I set it to unlimited after having issues at 25 and then 35, I ran into a problem with the AI not signing enough players, or not signing enough of the types of players it needed. As a result, some of the AI major league teams only had 5 pitchers, some had no SP, etc.

Granted, this was my Federal League "experiment" where I had 2 leagues sharing the same pool of leftover FAs, so it's possible that caused part of the problem. But OTOH, there were plenty of players available, it's just that teams weren't picking them up.

Since this is a different setup, I guess I'll start another new league (again :rolleyes: :mad: ) and see if it helps.

Do you find a big difference between having only 1 minor league versus 3 or more? Are you getting better results with multiple levels, or do you think 1 works just as well? I'm barely getting 20 players on my one minor league team, so I think having more than 1 is unnecessary, but if there's some reason I should have both a AAA and a AA or A, let me know.

[Young Drachma]

I think having more than one just slows the game down. But I have a MLB with 40 teams and for player development purposes I eventually add additional levels of minors since it's easier to sort players that way, etc., though most of the minor leagues are junk players and that's part of the reason I opt against having fewer ones.

I usually set my lowest league level to 'No Limit' and that helps things. If you have all sorts of extraneous foreign leagues in addition to your US leagues, then it might get things a bit slow and if you're a fast simmer like me, that gets old quick.

Are there players in the free agent pool and the AI just isn't signing anybody? Because that's weird if that's happening. Usually, I have to go and create more players if there aren't enough being spread through the league.

But I almost prefer that, because the AI doesn't exactly create enough prospects or even 'hidden gem' players to make things worthwhile and so, I just prefer to intervene.

[MizzouRah]

What's the work-around? I hadn't even gotten to really playing the game before the first patch, so it's likely I missed it entirely. Although, in bringing this issue up over at the OOTP boards, no one seems particularly concerned about it. I can't understand how people would enjoy/want to play out games in a career sim-oriented game based on a sport that has upwards of 180 games in a season. I can understand playing out a few here and there to get a flavor for the game and your team, but do people really play out the majority of their games AND make it through 10/20/50 years of history? From my experience playing arcade-style games, the best I could do in a game based on anything other than football was maybe 2 years, at tops. So the idea of a career sim seems at odds with being that hands-on. I've heard of free time, but that goes above and beyond anything I could commit to!

This is what Markus said before the patch came out:


It is indeed a bug. Do this for now:
1) Enable the commsih mode (manager options screen)
2) Go to your team home screen, then click the tab "Ballpark & options".
3) Check the box that says "Prevent AI roster moves"
4) Should you leave the team (fired, promotion), please uncheck that box again
That fixes your problem for now.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

[Ksyrup]

Are there players in the free agent pool and the AI just isn't signing anybody? Because that's weird if that's happening. Usually, I have to go and create more players if there aren't enough being spread through the league.

But I almost prefer that, because the AI doesn't exactly create enough prospects or even 'hidden gem' players to make things worthwhile and so, I just prefer to intervene.


In the Federal League universe I was referring to, I had the 16 (and then 20/24) MLB teams, plus 8 FL teams, each with a AAA team. During the 40s and 50s, when I started seeing the sign-and-release bug, some people over at the OOTP boards suggested I move my minor league roster limit from 25 to 35. I did that, and it really didn't help. Then someone suggested changing it to unlimited, which I did, and the sign-and-release went away, but the FL teams and their minors weren't signing anyone. So as I went into the 50s and 60s, I started noticing FL teams with guys pitching 460 innings and in 120+ games, because they had no pitching.

But that issue probably won't affect just an MLB universe, so I'll give it a try.

[Ksyrup]

This is what Markus said before the patch came out:

<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

But will that prevent the AI from making any roster moves? I still want the AI to make most of the moves, I just don't want him changing the moves I've made. Basically, I want to do what I do in FOF. Say I've got a rookie QB or RB, or maybe a DB I want to play only in certain situations, I'll put them where I want them, check the freeze button, and then run the AI depth chart recommendations and go with it. That's basically what I want for OOTP - put a guy in the rotation, or make a certain guy the closer, or replace a slumping LF with a rookie, then let the AI manage the rest.

[Young Drachma]

I will say that I really like the fact that you now edit a player's history. It's a really, really handy tool.

[Ksyrup]

I will say that I really like the fact that you now edit a player's history. It's a really, really handy tool.

What do you use that for?

[Young Drachma]

What do you use that for?

The game will automatically induct guys into the hall of fame just after they retire. Which isn't realistically. So I'll edit it and make it five years out or longer, if I induct them later.

In some cases, I do deals where there is a 'player to be named later' but the game doesn't recognize that obviously.

Other scenarios too.

[LionsFan10]

Okay, so my last question went un-answered, hopefully somebody will help me out here.

I turned off free agency when I began simming the history of my league, and now I want to turn it back on but I can't seem to figure out when to turn it back on. When will the options to turn on free agency not be greyed out, any particular month?

Any help would be great, thanks.

[Ksyrup]

Pre-season (usually around mid-February).

[MizzouRah]

But will that prevent the AI from making any roster moves? I still want the AI to make most of the moves, I just don't want him changing the moves I've made. Basically, I want to do what I do in FOF. Say I've got a rookie QB or RB, or maybe a DB I want to play only in certain situations, I'll put them where I want them, check the freeze button, and then run the AI depth chart recommendations and go with it. That's basically what I want for OOTP - put a guy in the rotation, or make a certain guy the closer, or replace a slumping LF with a rookie, then let the AI manage the rest.

You're losing me here. When has that been possible? I have the CPU manage my minor leagues (as far as roster management goes - rotation, lineups, but I say what players are in the minors) -

I setup my rotation and lineups and then sim from there, only stopping when there is an injury or a week has passed to make minor adjustments. You can't "lock" a player in previous versions that I was aware of???

You can manually insert a new LF for a few games yourself, which is quite easy.

[MizzouRah]

Pre-season (usually around mid-February).

Yep, try Feb 13th.

[Sweed]

I can't understand how people would enjoy/want to play out games in a career sim-oriented game based on a sport that has upwards of 180 games in a season. I can understand playing out a few here and there to get a flavor for the game and your team, but do people really play out the majority of their games AND make it through 10/20/50 years of history? From my experience playing arcade-style games, the best I could do in a game based on anything other than football was maybe 2 years, at tops. So the idea of a career sim seems at odds with being that hands-on. I've heard of free time, but that goes above and beyond anything I could commit to!

Ah, but, unlike any other sports game I have ever owned, with oopt you can import your game into each new version.

With that capability I have played out every inning of every game in my oopt solo universe. Simming and looking at stats\standings etc does nothing for me. I have to be involved on a "daily" basis to be connected to my universe. My career started with the 2002 season in version 4 and is now at midseason 2014 in version 2007. I usually get in about three complete seasons per version playing from April 'til October. I am enjoying v2k7 enough that maybe ootp will finally become a year round thing for me which would probably make 6-7 seasons per version possible.

I do agree with your suggestion to be able to "lock" players where you want them ala fof. I requested this for version 2k6 while it was being developed figuring the fully functioning minor leagues would have issues. Obviously hasn't made it in but I am hoping for 2k8. I really don't know much about coding but I'm guessing locks are something that wouldn't be easy to add in a patch?

[Ksyrup]

You're losing me here. When has that been possible? I have the CPU manage my minor leagues (as far as roster management goes - rotation, lineups, but I say what players are in the minors) -

I setup my rotation and lineups and then sim from there, only stopping when there is an injury or a week has passed to make minor adjustments. You can't "lock" a player in previous versions that I was aware of???

You can manually insert a new LF for a few games yourself, which is quite easy.

That's what I'm saying...it's an issue as to how I'm able to play macro versus micro-managing my league. I want the AI to handle to most of the moves, but also not change moves I make. I'm trying to not have to stop every few days and make changes based on DTD or insignificant injuries. The game has never allowed locking of players, but it needs to. It looks like I'm going to have to fully micro-manage the league, setting lineups, etc. I didn't really want to do that, or at least not have to do it constantly when injuries and poor performance happen.

[Ksyrup]

Ah, but, unlike any other sports game I have ever owned, with oopt you can import your game into each new version.

With that capability I have played out every inning of every game in my oopt solo universe. Simming and looking at stats\standings etc does nothing for me. I have to be involved on a "daily" basis to be connected to my universe. My career started with the 2002 season in version 4 and is now at midseason 2014 in version 2007. I usually get in about three complete seasons per version playing from April 'til October. I am enjoying v2k7 enough that maybe ootp will finally become a year round thing for me which would probably make 6-7 seasons per version possible.

I do agree with your suggestion to be able to "lock" players where you want them ala fof. I requested this for version 2k6 while it was being developed figuring the fully functioning minor leagues would have issues. Obviously hasn't made it in but I am hoping for 2k8. I really don't know much about coding but I'm guessing locks are something that wouldn't be easy to add in a patch?


Wow. That's a hell of a long-term commitment. I wouldn't feel like I was progressing enough if I played that slowly. But that time frame pretty much makes sense. I'd just feel like glaciers are moving faster than my game!

[path12]

I tried to download the trial version last night and couldn't get it started without the purchase screen coming up, so I bought the damn thing because I knew I was going to anyway.

Never played OOTP before. Messed around with a quick start for about 30 minutes. Truly lost, and I'm a FM veteran so the UI wasn't all that different. So my newbie question before I go into this thread in detail is this: Is the 500 page manual the way to go? What's the easiest way to understand this bad boy?

[Young Drachma]

If you've never played OOTP, getting into the manual is a wise idea. And stay away from the OOTP boards early on, they'll just confuse you with all of the inane ramblings.

The manual is a good start and from there..well, just do a quick start and see how it all works. It's really, really deep.

[path12]

If you've never played OOTP, getting into the manual is a wise idea. And stay away from the OOTP boards early on, they'll just confuse you with all of the inane ramblings.

The manual is a good start and from there..well, just do a quick start and see how it all works. It's really, really deep.

Thanks for the info. I'll start on it tonight. Should be ready to play by August sometime..... :)

[Sweed]

Wow. That's a hell of a long-term commitment. I wouldn't feel like I was progressing enough if I played that slowly. But that time frame pretty much makes sense. I'd just feel like glaciers are moving faster than my game!

Just the way I was brought up I guess. Started with Strat in the late 60's and of course had to play every game. Moved on and played some Earl, HH, and then Lance Haffner's Full Count Baseball. With that "training" it's the only way to play for me and really not much different than the old Strat days where I replayed the previous season with each new version. Except of course now my
world is no longer a replay but continues from summer to summer. Too me it's the Holy Grail :)

[lynchjm24]

Too me it's the Holy Grail :)

You are lucky because the SI design fits your play style. I think you are in the minority however of OOTP players.

[Young Drachma]

I like FaceGen, but I tell ya..it seems that every few universes I create I run across some sort of showstopping bug that makes the game freeze up and stop working and forces me to start over and over again.

It's probably one of those things that if I reported it, they'd have an impossible time trying to figure out what's doing it. I just know that it keeps happening at random times, over the past few times and it's pretty irritating.

I hope that next patch comes soon.

[Young Drachma]

Dola --

I've found that if you backup a league that ends up crashing at some point for one reason or another, that the backup files don't bring it back from the dead. However, saving it as a quickstart doesn't render all of your work useless and so, lucky for me that I managed to do that this time.

I'm not ruling out user error when it comes to some of the fail safes like saving more often, etc. But...otherwise, I dunno.

[Sweed]

You are lucky because the SI design fits your play style. I think you are in the minority however of OOTP players.

Yeah, it does fit what I do (I play fof, tpb, fbcb the same way) and I may be in the minority by playing every inning of every game. There have been polls done though and if you figure in the guys that play out 1 game from every series, the "important" games, or every game of the playoffs then things probably get a little closer to even.

I've read many of your criticisms of the game but not being a quick simmer I can't really comment on a lot of them. I do know from reading your posts though that I am not as picky (not meant in a bad way you are entitled to your opinion) about the game as you. I can look at things that I know bother you and say "it's just a game and a hell of a lot better than Strat or any other game I played in my youth", while the same issue might be a gamebreaker to you.

That being said I certainly don't think the game is perfect. I would love to see the transactions tightened up even more. I'd love to see the "lock button" ala FOF implemented which would help both quick and slow players, just to name a couple off the top of my head.

The game tries to do a lot of things for a lot of different playing styles. While it is probably it's greatest strength it may also be it's greatest weakness.

[lynchjm24]

The game tries to do a lot of things for a lot of different playing styles. While it is probably it's greatest strength it may also be it's greatest weakness.

That probably sums up OOTP in one sentence. FOF is a much tighter game because Jim has focused on only one way to play. Personally I'd trade the flexibility to tighten up the rest of OOTP but I imagine in this case I'm the minority.

There is just so much in OOTP that makes no sense. There is this huge minor league interface that creates so much work, and generates so much information and history, but:

A. Playing time seems to have no bearing on player development
B. Either the AI signs 100 players to your A ball team OR
C. The AI releases good prospects when you limit the rosters

What's more important? Having reams of useless statistics on thousands of players who never get out of A-ball or not having problem A, B & C?

[MizzouRah]

That's what I'm saying...it's an issue as to how I'm able to play macro versus micro-managing my league. I want the AI to handle to most of the moves, but also not change moves I make. I'm trying to not have to stop every few days and make changes based on DTD or insignificant injuries. The game has never allowed locking of players, but it needs to. It looks like I'm going to have to fully micro-manage the league, setting lineups, etc. I didn't really want to do that, or at least not have to do it constantly when injuries and poor performance happen.

Ok.. well, I'm not as worried then. :) I understand what you are saying now and that would be a good idea for a future patch.

[Young Drachma]

Overall, the game really caters to my style of play. I do think there could be reams of tightening up that could be done, that has been highlighted through this thread.

[Ksyrup]

I started over last night with the Expos in 1969. Taking DC's advice, I left the minors limit as "unlimited," and the first thing that struck me was how few FAs there were. For the beginning of the game, I really didn't like that, but as the years go by and the number of players in the universe increases, that should be less of a problem. And hey, if there are no FAs, there can be no sign-and-release problems, right?! One thing I meant to do but forgot was to check how many minor league players each team has. I'm hoping the AI didn't go overboard and sign dozens (well, maybe 2 dozen would be OK) for each team.

With just a couple of trades and basically using the roster that was imported (because there were so few FAs), I got my team out to a great start, and was actually a little worried that we were doing too well for an expansion team. I think at one point in mid-August, we were 67-50 and only a couple of games behind Pittsburgh for 1st place...and then I lost Rusty Staub, easily my best hitter, for 5 weeks, and my pitching, which had been way overachieving, fell apart, and I think we ended the season at 78-84. That's right - I believe we won only 11 of our last 45 games. But really, it made for a more believable year than competing for a playoff spot.

I'll tell ya, overall, I'm very pleased with how the game works, even with all of the issues we've found.

[Drake]

I left my lowest minors unlimited and haven't seen the sign-and-release issue. I leave all of my minors management up to the AI managers and the largest I've seen my A-ball team get is around 60 players. The AI has done a pretty solid job so far of trimming guys that shouldn't be on the roster.

For the record: I run only 3 levels of minors with 35-man roster limits on AAA and AA. A good number of my draft prospects don't pan out, but I can't tell if that's an issue (i.e., lack of playing time) or a feature (i.e., busts/booms). Whichever it is, I like it. Just like in real life, outside of the first round or so, the draft is a crapshoot.

[Ksyrup]

I don't mind leaving the minors management to the AI, but just playing time/lineups, etc. I want to control who is on the team. If you sign or trade for guys that you end up sending to the minors (or just demote someone from the major leagues to minors), and the AI is controlling your minor league transactions, have you run across any instances where the AI has released someone you otherwise wanted to keep? That would be my biggest concern.

[Drake]

Oh yeah, I've had that happen, especially with guys who are borderline but I want to keep for sentimental reasons. I agree with you completely in that I'd like to see a "lock" button on roster moves I could make that would override the AI. Many times, I've got a 5th starter or a role player that I love and want on my 25-man roster, but the AI evaluates someone on my AAA squad as better. This happens pretty frequently with utility infielders -- guys without much bat, but who defend four or five positions really well. I'm partial to utility guys with great gloves, even if they can't hit (minimizes the number of players I need to carry to combat fatigue issues). Apparently the AI is not as hot on them as I am.

[Young Drachma]

Yeah, the AI loves to release guys before I'm ready to lose them. I didn't realize you could use that AI button on a human team and it's worked well for so far. So that's what I've been doing. I took over the Blue Jays in 2008 and lost the World Series to the Dodgers. But this was after a crash and so, I wasn't really as happy with this team (despite a 100+ win season) as I was with the one I had pre-crash.

So I'm going to remake the club a bit and I haven't figured out if I want to add another level of minors or if I want to add a feeder league of prospects to evaluate. I like the idea that this game allows me to track prospects from their early days well into their into the majors. It just seems like a better way to do it than just letting the draft recreate random kids, which is why I turned it off for this past season.

I'm tinkering a bit, but I've largely found that it's better to keep things small in the early going if I want to be able to keep up with everything that's happening.

And I've noticed by and large that I don't have to micromanage stupid AI moves like the computer did in past versions. Which is a good thing.

[Drake]

I must say that I really, really, really dig being able to start small and then run the expansion utility when I feel like getting bigger. That's a nice feature.

[Young Drachma]

The whole league creation utility in the universe, crash bug is really annoying. They said it was fixed after the last patch, but..it isn't.

[Drake]

Hmm. I haven't seen that one yet. My game always crashes as it's closing down (when the save progress bar gets to 94%), but other than that, the only crashes I've had have involved the scouting tasklist tab.

[Ksyrup]

I've found that bug to still be happening, but it's not a big deal to me, since the crash only happens once, it doesn't mess up the universe, and the league is always created successfully the second time. I've gotten to the point where I just create a league I don't intend to keep just to make the crash happen, then when I bring the universe back up and create the league the second time, I do it the way I want it.

[Marc Duffy]

The whole league creation utility in the universe, crash bug is really annoying. They said it was fixed after the last patch, but..it isn't.
Can you ping me a PM - I have an updated exe for you to test.

[Young Drachma]

Hmm. I haven't seen that one yet. My game always crashes as it's closing down (when the save progress bar gets to 94%), but other than that, the only crashes I've had have involved the scouting tasklist tab.

The few times I've seen that particular bug (where the game closes and crashes on close down), it's made my universes unplayable after it happens. I'm so paranoid about it that I tend to save my league that I'm playing, open a new one and close out using one that I don't care about on purpose, so if it happens..I don't lose anything that I wanted to keep.

[Drake]

The one time I thought it blew up a league of mine, I went in and shut off FaceGen, restored from my most recent backup and it worked when I fired it up. Then I turned FaceGen back on again and it recreated the FaceGen data file that handles the image/player id connection.

[Young Drachma]

The one time I thought it blew up a league of mine, I went in and shut off FaceGen, restored from my most recent backup and it worked when I fired it up. Then I turned FaceGen back on again and it recreated the FaceGen data file that handles the image/player id connection.

Ooh. Good idea. I did think to disable FaceGen, but didn't think to restore the backups after that, rather than before. I'll note that for the next time. (Hopefully it won't come)

[Young Drachma]

Game won't past June 9th, the 2nd year into my most recent universe. This is after I had some facegen problems too. I can't figure out of it's just because of the database I'm using or if it's something else.

[korme]

I hope this works. I started in 1950, with the inauguration of the Nippon Pro Baseball league. Using baseball-reference's Bullpen (wiki), I have been able to correctly reassign teams for up until 2007. When 2007 comes, I plan to import MLB's entire history.

Now, will I be able to view past player cards or will the leaders like Rose and Aaron be unclickable?

[Ksyrup]

I'm not sure I understand what you're doing at all. Are you playing a fictional league with MLB structure and then wanting to layer the MLB leader board on top of it? I don't get what you started in 1950 with, what happened between 1950 and 2007, and why you would need MLB's history at that point. Sorry.

[Fouts]

My league is stuck. I took over an expansion franchise before the 1969 season and now we are up to the next expansion. For some reason I cannot set my protection list for the upcoming expansion draft.

I tried starting a test league just before the 1977 expansion and the protect list link was on my manager homepage. So it sounds like a bug with expansion franchises. The only workaround I see is to resign as manager to keep the league going. Maybe I can get the job back after the draft (but lose players I might have wanted to keep).

Anyone know any other options?

[korme]

I'm not sure I understand what you're doing at all. Are you playing a fictional league with MLB structure and then wanting to layer the MLB leader board on top of it? I don't get what you started in 1950 with, what happened between 1950 and 2007, and why you would need MLB's history at that point. Sorry.

Ksyrup, I am recreating Japan's league history (The NPB is where Ichiro, Matsui, Matsuzaka, et al come from)... Fictional, but I used the real teams, fic players however; when I hit 2007 I want the MLB with all of it's history, and I thought that was possible.

[bhlloy]

Damn, this game crashes a ton. Trying to create a MLB universe starting in 95 with correct minor league teams, logos and uniforms and I can no longer access the Atlanta Braves (game crashed while I was editing the logo) or the Chicago Cubs (tried to delete one of their minor league affiliates)

I understand I am probably doing things the wrong way, but is an error message and allowing me to correct the error of my ways too much to ask?

This league is pretty much shot and I'll start again tomorrow... let's hope the saved template works properly otherwise I just dropped a couple of hours of work for nothing.

[RainMaker]

Just wanted to say here that the team that made OOTP 1 to 6.5 are the very same team that made 2006 and 2007. 'SI' didn't re-do anything - Markus and his team led the project as per normal

Again SI didnt get involved in the direction of the game. Markus drove the game forward and it's all his great vision (as it was before). SI provided the tools and framework to allow Markus to carry out his vision.

The UI can be attributed to SI but you misunderstand fundamentally that it's the same guys making this game that made 6.5.

Then I think it's Markus who messed up. He took a pretty solid game and morphed it into a very complicated and tedoius excursion. I'm certain people like that, enjoy spending 2 weeks just setting up their universe. But those who I've talked to, those who complained last year and this year, all have had the same gripes that they just don't need this whole universe.


I'm not sure I understand how you can say they are a small % of the fanbase?
Just look at the sales numbers. Just look at the boards. This game isn't growing anymore. A few years ago, the OOTP boards were banging, there were multiple roster sets, tons of leagues, and a huge base of guys writing up their leagues. Now you have a slow moving board with few leagues, and a couple guys making mods. Heck, there isn't even a roster set out yet. In old versions, there were 4-5 by this time, and always one ready for release day. If those aren't signs of alienating the majority of the userbase with these last 2 versions, I don't know what is (I'll add that I guarantee you that the lack of a roster set has caused sales numbers to drop. This was always a staple of OOTP games whether it's your guys fault or not).

An example of the small fanbase having such a huge impact is evident on the boards. The game is adding stuff like feeder systems, player morale, and face gen technology. But the game hasn't touched huge AI problems that have plagued the game for awhile now. Players develop ridiculously fast in the minors, the amateur draft pool is riddled with lopsided talent pools that feature positions that never have good prospects and star middle relievers who never get picked, and the computer still drops great players for no reason at all. You guys are adding some great features to the game, but the stuff I listed is much more important than player morale.


Markus has come out and said publically that a complete rewrite was much needed in order to allow him to take the game forward. You make a lot of assumptions and I believe that on many counts you are very wrong but I respect your opinion.

I have no problem with him needing a re-write. But the re-write didn't need to be so complex. I know you're sold on the universe idea, but I truly feel it hurt this game. The nuts and bolts of the game was based around major league baseball. While you had a lot of fictional fans, most of the diehards played historical sims and modern day sims with the actual major league format. This game was built around major league baseball, and the last 2 versions have shifted from that.

I felt the game should have stuck to what worked and expanded on it. It should have allowed more flexibility to the minor leagues, cleaned up historical play (which you've done well in 2007), expanded the almanac and bolstered the AI so that you could actually sit and play as a GM. I'm sorry, but take a team, be a GM, and see how ridiculous the moves the computer makes. It doesn't take more than a couple years to make the worst team in the league the best.

And I know you're just doing your job, and maybe you don't understand where some of the old timers are coming from with the game. All the belles and whistles, all the different variations of universes, and all the 300-page instruction books in the world don't matter if the AI of the game is bad. I can deal with a different interface, with some more complicated setups, but I have a hard time dealing with bad AI, bad development, and a game that does not mimic anything we see in modern day baseball.

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm in the minority. I played OOTP because I liked being a GM/manager and building up a team to a level of the Yankees. I liked having to be savvy, keep an eye on players, develop them over years. Now I can pick up another teams best prospect because they released him. I can watch as the high school kid I drafted is ready for the majors in less than a year. The new versions are not built for people like me.

[Ksyrup]

Ksyrup, I am recreating Japan's league history (The NPB is where Ichiro, Matsui, Matsuzaka, et al come from)... Fictional, but I used the real teams, fic players however; when I hit 2007 I want the MLB with all of it's history, and I thought that was possible.


OK, I got you. I thought you were referring to one league, not adding another league. Yes, this is possible, although I think you'll probably have to bring in the MLB for the 2006 season. I really haven't done much with importing around 2006/2007, but I'm sure you're aware that Lahman doesn't have 2007 info, so my guess is the best you can do is import the MLB for the start of the 2006 season, since that's the last importable season. Maybe someone else can definitively answer that for you.

What you would do is add a new major league, and make sure you create it as an historical league and check the box that imports the league's entire history. A word of caution, which may or may not apply to your computer - several of us have reported bizarre problems with importing history for seasons beyond 1977 or so. There's something screwy going on for some of us that may have someone to do with our computers, I don't know. But when I import for, say, 1969, it probably takes 20-30 minutes to pull all of the people and pics into the game and set it up. If I try 1977 or later...the last time I tried it, it took almost 12 hours to import 1977. So something strange is going on. I just wanted to point that out to you, although it might not effect you.

[Cringer]

Just bought this game over the weekend. (Been busy on the road, forgot about it coming out).

I must say that so far this is the OOTP (and baseball sim in general) that I have been waiting years for I guess. Last year I didn't even try OOTP 2006, and instead went with PureSim. PureSim last year was the first baseball sim I was finally able to get into after a couple failed attempts with OOTP. OOTP 2007 has taken it to the next level now. Love the game. A ton to learn, but I am having fun with it which is something OOTP never really did for me in the past.

[Young Drachma]

I'm trying to plan a relegation/promotion league using major league teams. I'm going to probably wait until the last of the major leagues (using Gambo DB) retire, before really kicking into it, though it might be sooner depending on how bored I get.

The idea is to consolidate both the AL and NL into single table leagues again, with the winner going to the World Series just like the old days, no more playoffs other than that.

I haven't figure out how many teams are optimal, I'm thinking two 10-team leagues, would work.

And then the rest would be in lower divisions with a similar setup. The worst team gets demoted, the winner of each league gets promoted. And down the road, I might do a best-of-three game series between the 2nd and 3rd worst teams with the loser being relegated and rather than having a post-season series at the 1st, 2nd (and maybe 3rd) division levels, just having no playoffs in those leagues promoting the league champs each year.

We'll see...

[MizzouRah]

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm in the minority. I played OOTP because I liked being a GM/manager and building up a team to a level of the Yankees. I liked having to be savvy, keep an eye on players, develop them over years. Now I can pick up another teams best prospect because they released him. I can watch as the high school kid I drafted is ready for the majors in less than a year. The new versions are not built for people like me.

I did buy 2006 and 2007, didn't play 2006 much but I felt Markus patched the game well.

I do agree with a lot of what you said though. Even with all of this "in-depth" baseball bliss for some, I still think it might come to a point after my historical sim takes me to where I'm going to actually start playing the game, that I won't get bored and fire up 6.5 once again or turn to Puresim. I'll save that judgement for later, but I hear what you are saying.

One thing I definitly notice is how slow the ootp forums have become since it's switched over to SI and went a new direction.

[darkenigma510]

I'm confused about the "universe" criticisms when you have a choice not to create a universe, just an MLB league.

[DanGarion]

I'm confused about the "universe" criticisms when you have a choice not to create a universe, just an MLB league.
People don't like options, they'd rather have it set up like real life and then be able to complain they can't customize.

Welcome to Hollywood! :D

[darkenigma510]

People don't like options, they'd rather have it set up like real life and then be able to complain they can't customize.

Welcome to Hollywood! :D

I sometimes think that is it. People must feel compelled to create a massive universe or they feel like they are missing out. My advice to anyone new to OOTP (or who feels overburdoned) is set up a simple MLB structure with either reserve rosters or AAA/AA and then forget about the rest of the options for a little while.

If you are new, play around with a small simple league rather than reading the manual from start to finish.

[Fouts]

I love this version of OOTP, and I've played each version since OOTP2. I'm not sure why people would complain about the game growing the way it has. Did people want to keep paying for upgrades like we did from 6.0 to 6.5? I think Markus went as far as he could within that framework.

I will agree that it is pretty easy to win (moreso than 6.5). I have to restrain myself. If I really want that FA stud, I can get him. I do not initiate trades with the fear that I would fleece the computer. Maybe future versions with have different modes of play (i.e. easy, normal, expert).

[adubroff]

I just had a couple of my minor league staff (hitting coach/pitching coach) leave. I went looking for a replacement and found one that looked good in the "available personell" screen, but I do not seem to have the ability to actually hire him. Is this something I should be doing myself or do the minor league teams do it on their own?

[MizzouRah]

People don't like options, they'd rather have it set up like real life and then be able to complain they can't customize.

Welcome to Hollywood! :D

I like it setup like RL with 0 options! :D

[Ksyrup]

I'm confused about the "universe" criticisms when you have a choice not to create a universe, just an MLB league.

My only criticism of it is that if you're going to include it in the game and tout it as a feature, it ought to work reasonably well out of the box. If I have to pull out a scientific calculator just to figure out the correct settings for the right mix of talent, etc., to make the universe remotely resemble an actual baseball league, I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, you don't have to play it that way, just stick with MLB." It's touted as a feature of the game, a way to play. Why shouldn't I expect it to work?

[Ksyrup]

I will agree that it is pretty easy to win (moreso than 6.5). I have to restrain myself. If I really want that FA stud, I can get him. I do not initiate trades with the fear that I would fleece the computer. Maybe future versions with have different modes of play (i.e. easy, normal, expert).

I'm playing a pre-free agency historical sim with trading on hard and favor prospects, and I don't feel like I can fleece the AI. And since there aren't that many FAs available, and trading is pretty much the only way to build a team aside from what players are placed on the team (I'm not playing with the draft, either), I'm finding it to be pretty challenging.

[lighthousekeeper]

I will agree that it is pretty easy to win (moreso than 6.5). I have to restrain myself. If I really want that FA stud, I can get him. I do not initiate trades with the fear that I would fleece the computer. Maybe future versions with have different modes of play (i.e. easy, normal, expert).

I find it odd to hear that. I'm finding my current ootp07 universe to be the most challenging ootp game yet. I took over a Cinncinnati team in 2015 that is in horrible financial shape, and despite my best efforts, my team has the worst record in the entire league.

If you're finding the game to be too easy, try setting the trading diffixulty to 'hard'. That's what I have it set at now and I am basically unable to make rip-off-type trades.

[Ksyrup]

Yep. The difference between average and hard trading is pretty steep. Just try the "shop around" feature on hard, and then try it on average, and you'll see a big difference in the number of offers you can get on average versus the scraps the AI throws at you on hard. I'd move it to very hard, but since trading is basically the only way I can make changes in my league, I'm afraid I'd just be playing with the exact historical rosters.

[Swaggs]

I just had a couple of my minor league staff (hitting coach/pitching coach) leave. I went looking for a replacement and found one that looked good in the "available personell" screen, but I do not seem to have the ability to actually hire him. Is this something I should be doing myself or do the minor league teams do it on their own?

If he is available to be hired, you should be able to right click and offer a contract to him.

[highfiveoh]

Anyone know if the sign and release bug is due to be fixed in the next patch? I'm finding it very annoying having to leave the roster size of my lowest minor league unlimited.

[lynchjm24]

Yep. The difference between average and hard trading is pretty steep. Just try the "shop around" feature on hard, and then try it on average, and you'll see a big difference in the number of offers you can get on average versus the scraps the AI throws at you on hard. I'd move it to very hard, but since trading is basically the only way I can make changes in my league, I'm afraid I'd just be playing with the exact historical rosters.

I've got it on very hard and favor prospects and I can still find a deal that favors me everytime I shop a player unless he has a contract so bad no one will take it on.

Players develop too quickly and the draft pools are a mess. The AI has not improved at all. All the FaceGen in the world isn't going to fix these.

[lynchjm24]

Anyone know if the sign and release bug is due to be fixed in the next patch? I'm finding it very annoying having to leave the roster size of my lowest minor league unlimited.

I might check out permanently if this doesn't get fixed next time. The AI's decisions on the minor league players are horrendous.

[BigPapi]

I might check out permanently if this doesn't get fixed next time. The AI's decisions on the minor league players are horrendous.

I am with you and Rainmaker on this as well- I have about had it with the games AI regarding its top prospects- nothing short of ridiculous....Having said that- I will defend the player development curves in this version- I have HS and College feeder leagues- but guys take between 2 and 5 years to develop depending on from which level they are drafted from. Twenty years in- and I have only seen one teenager and very few guys except the top 5 picks in the draft reach The Show in the season they were drafted. For me- at least- this aspect of the game is improved.

[RainMaker]

I'm confused about the "universe" criticisms when you have a choice not to create a universe, just an MLB league.

The MLB league AI is flawed. The minor league management is horrid, the computer is clueless building a club, and the trade AI is still bad. All these things are worse in 2007 than in 6.51. My argument has been that the universe was built at the expense of the actual MLB style setup. It plays nothing like real baseball anymore.

[RainMaker]

I find it odd to hear that. I'm finding my current ootp07 universe to be the most challenging ootp game yet. I took over a Cinncinnati team in 2015 that is in horrible financial shape, and despite my best efforts, my team has the worst record in the entire league.

If you're finding the game to be too easy, try setting the trading diffixulty to 'hard'. That's what I have it set at now and I am basically unable to make rip-off-type trades.

It's not really the trades that kills the realism. I can stay away from trading or just make sure that they are somewhat even. I'm still sad that after all these years, there isn't a somewhat realistic trade algorithm in the game where non-contenders are dumping veterans for prospects and vice versa. There was a team 15 games out of first at the deadline, yet I was able to trade them 2 guys in the final year of their contract for a decent prospect they had. There is no reason any team that is out of contention would do that. Teams playing for next year is an important facet of the game that still hasn't been touched (but atleast I can setup a feeder league in Guatemala).

But the biggest problem is the free agency and prospect dumping. Teams dump big name prospects for no reason. If they don't have room, or didn't feel the guy would be on their roster someday, then they should trade them for talent they need. But right now, teams are dumping top 50 prospects all season long. I can pickup 2-3 a season (along with other good ones that get dumped). This at the same time when mid-to-late 20 year olds with no chance of making the big leagues are kept on minor league rosters. Just by cruising the free agents throughout the year, you can take a bad minor league system to a great one in one year.

Then there is the draft. You simply can't find guys who play SS in there that are good (or atleast I've never seen one in years of simming). There is also a ton of elite middle relievers who never get picked. I can snag a bunch of them, many of which have endurance to be starters, and can build up a phenomenal pitching staff that way.

I don't consider myself that savvy building teams, but I can build a contender out of anyone in a couple years by simply grabbing easy to find prospects.

[Ksyrup]

I've got it on very hard and favor prospects and I can still find a deal that favors me everytime I shop a player unless he has a contract so bad no one will take it on.

Players develop too quickly and the draft pools are a mess. The AI has not improved at all. All the FaceGen in the world isn't going to fix these.

If the standard you're looking for is "dead even" trade, then you're looking for something that will never exist. A trade can "favor" you and still not be a bad deal. I guess your definition of "fleecing the AI" and mine are different. Last night, I tried to "fleece" the AI for an extra player in a relatively even deal that was offered to me when I shopped a guy. That player was Christy Mathewson. I couldn't get anything to work, and when I hit the "make this trade work" button, the only way I could get 24-year old Mathewson was by adding 20-year old Ty Cobb, a 24-year old 4-star 3B, or my 28-year old top SP. The added issue here is that obviously, even with recalc off, I know that Mathewson has a decent chance of have a long career and the AI doesn't, so from that perspective, I could have made a deal that "favors" me in giving up a 28-year old very good pitcher for a 24-year old one. But I had no problem with the restrictions the AI put on that trade, and I didn't feel like I was taking advantage of the AI if I had chosen to make that trade. Of course, I'm also not going to go around and shop for all of the 18-22 year old prospects I know will end up great, unless the AI offers them up.

Not to mention, I've had plenty of trades offered to me that would not have been a good deal for me. So even if I'm looking at complete balance as being the sole determining factor of whether the trading AI is flawed, I'm not consistently seeing one-sided deals at all.

[Ksyrup]

With unlimited minor league rosters, the sign-and-release issue has definitely gone away. Of course, the flipside of that for me is that there are no FAs available at all. No prospects, no scrubs. I guess once I get further into my historical career and more players show up, the FA pool will grow. But right now I'm not having the problem of the AI dropping good prospects.

[Drake]

KSyrup,

I start seeing a better FA pool about 3-5 years in with an unlimited A-ball roster. One other thing that I do to keep my minor league rosters semi-realistic is set an age limit of 28 for A-ball and 30 for AA. I figure that any guy still playing at A by 28 isn't going to develop, so I force the AI to either promote him or cut him. That seems to push more guys into FA and typically solves the problem of old dudes with 4A talent getting all of the playing time in the minor leagues.

I don't set an age limit for AAA because I want to be able to drop my limited ability older guys/injury fill-ins there (sort of like a reserve roster).

This works well for me, but I've also got the Rule 5, waiver stuff and 40 man roster business turned off. I always turn that stuff off because I don't like dealing with options, guys refusing to be demoted, etc, so your mileage may vary.

[Ksyrup]

I turn all of that off also. And I only use the one level of minor leagues (AAA). Do you force just your players to be cut when they reach those ages, or the AI's as well?

[BigPapi]

With unlimited minor league rosters, the sign-and-release issue has definitely gone away. Of course, the flipside of that for me is that there are no FAs available at all. No prospects, no scrubs. I guess once I get further into my historical career and more players show up, the FA pool will grow. But right now I'm not having the problem of the AI dropping good prospects.

You know..I am having the opposite problem...Tons of free agents- and the Ai empties- and I mean EMPTIES their respective Rookie league teams at the end of each season. A ball affillliates refuse to pick up players as needed- and I am constantly filling rosters manually- even with teams computer managed and set to allow roster changes. This is also the period which I see teams drop it's best prosepects (if they haven't already).

I wonder if this dynamic isnt' associated with using different roster sets...Though I cant imagine why. What I have noticed is- just for testing- is that when I create a purlely fictional league using MLB constraints- the computer handling of rosters and prospects is better- but if I, say, import a roster from last year- all hell breaks loose...And yet- the prospects I see being dropped are indeed top 50 material- yet the AI has a horrible time managing them in a converted roster....Which sucks for me- becasue I can't play fictional- at least to start. Really weird...Sigh......

[BigPapi]

KSyrup,

I start seeing a better FA pool about 3-5 years in with an unlimited A-ball roster. One other thing that I do to keep my minor league rosters semi-realistic is set an age limit of 28 for A-ball and 30 for AA. I figure that any guy still playing at A by 28 isn't going to develop, so I force the AI to either promote him or cut him. That seems to push more guys into FA and typically solves the problem of old dudes with 4A talent getting all of the playing time in the minor leagues.

I don't set an age limit for AAA because I want to be able to drop my limited ability older guys/injury fill-ins there (sort of like a reserve roster).

This works well for me, but I've also got the Rule 5, waiver stuff and 40 man roster business turned off. I always turn that stuff off because I don't like dealing with options, guys refusing to be demoted, etc, so your mileage may vary.

Actually- Markus has confirmed that age limits for minor leagues don't work...He actually said they were never intended to be in the game in the first place- and were overlooked when the game was released. You might want to check and see if htey are working for you- becasue they never worked for me at all...I am pretty sure they were removed altogether with the first patch.

[Drake]

I turn all of that off also. And I only use the one level of minor leagues (AAA). Do you force just your players to be cut when they reach those ages, or the AI's as well?

I force everyone. It's one of the league setup options. I'd tell you where it is, but I don't remember off the top of my head and I don't have the game with me (but I'm pretty sure it's under the Rules or Options tab).

[Drake]

Actually- Markus has confirmed that age limits for minor leagues don't work...He actually said they were never intended to be in the game in the first place- and were overlooked when the game was released. You might want to check and see if htey are working for you- becasue they never worked for me at all...I am pretty sure they were removed altogether with the first patch.

Interesting. Maybe I need to pay closer attention, because I thought it was working. :(

[Ksyrup]

He said it wasn't intended to be in the game and was removed with the first patch, but a bunch of us responded that we liked it and it should be put back in.

[BigPapi]

Interesting. Maybe I need to pay closer attention, because I thought it was working. :(

LOL...Me too- until I actually went and checked my league....Roster management regarding player ages was pretty good, mind you- but, for example- my A affiliate had 25 man roster- 22 of which were 22 or younger- but I actually had a 30 year old and a 28 year old floating around...A little annoying- but not a gamekiller IMO.