U of M is at it again

[PSUColonel]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070605/SCHOOLS/706050368/1003/METRO

[DeToxRox]

Dearborn is the highest populated muslim city in the United States, its why they do it and not UM Ann Arbor

[PSUColonel]

using public funds?

[cartman]

From the article:


"To my knowledge, none of the students or staff have made any complaints about the foot-washing area," Walid said.

"This whole thing came to light through some right-wing Islama-phobic bloggers that want to promulgate the idea that the university is being Islama-fied."

[cartman]

using public funds?

Again from the article:

Gallagher argued taxpayer money won't be used for the foot baths because the $100,000 total bill for the bathrooms is underwritten by a fee students pay for building maintenance.

[PSUColonel]

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?



what if the issue was over a crucifix?...would you be defending this as much?


The last time I checked, U of M was a public University

[RedKingGold]

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?

$100,000 spread over a significant student population is not much of a cost at all. Further, if it supports diversity throughout, I have no problem with such.

what if the issue was over a crucifix?...would you be defending this as much?

If that is the will of the student population, then it should not be a problem.

The last time I checked, U of M was a public University

The idea of church and state being seperated is a very weak argument. If you don't think so, go to your local courthouse and see how many religious insignias you see presented.

[cartman]

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?


Again from the article:

The university of 8,600 students doesn't track them by religion, Gallagher said.


would you be defending this as much?

Please point out where I have come out for or against this. All of my posts have simply pointed out the answers to your questions, which are contained in the article.

[PSUColonel]

$100,000 spread over a significant student population is not much of a cost at all. Further, if it supports diversity throughout, I have no problem with such.



If that is the will of the student population, then it should not be a problem.



The idea of church and state being seperated is a very weak argument. If you don't think so, go to your local courthouse and see how many religious insignias you see presented.



I actually agree about the seperation of church and state, but it seems people only have a problem when it pertains to Christianity. I don't care how much it costs though, it's the principle of the issue. Why should non muslims be paying for something they won't be using. I see this project as non essential, and a waste of money...especially for those who don't give two craps about islam.

[RedKingGold]

Why should non muslims be paying for something they won't be using. I see this project as non essential, and a waste of money...especially for those who don't give two craps about islam.

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

[PSUColonel]

I also find it laughable that the ACLU won't get involved in this(likely because it fits their liberal template) when if the issue were in fact over a Christian religious debate, they'd be there in a flash.

[PSUColonel]

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.


Again, it's the principle, not the cost.

[WVUFAN]

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

I guarantee you that if Christians wanted to set up something similar strictly for religious purpose, people would be all over this. But because it's a "minority" religion, that's ok.

If I were a U of M student, I'd be pissed that my money is paying for this. If Muslim students want to set up something like this, they should be able to, as long as they used their own money.

[cartman]

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

[PSUColonel]

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.




Please!!.....Ok if that's the way you want it, I'll hang out in those baths all day reading my Bible...let's see what happens.

[sabotai]

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

[PSUColonel]

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.


Then why are they being built?...It's humerous that the ACLU won't get involved in this case.

[WVUFAN]

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

The stated purpose of that footstation in that article is so it's easier for Muslims to wash their feet before prayer. I think that's fine, but I don't think it's right for EVERYONE to pay for it. If Muslim students wish to have something like this, they should foot the bill for it.

Again, if this were some sort of Christian thing, there would be huge protests that student money is being used for it.

[WVUFAN]

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

Wrong, according to the article ..

"The university claims the stations are needed to accommodate Muslim students, who must ritually wash their bodies -- including the feet -- up to five times each day before prayers ... "

The stations are SPECIFICALLY being built for the purpose of a religious rite (the washing of feet before a Muslim prayer). In this case, foot baths are very much focal to the point.

[PSUColonel]

From a Blog written by Debbie Schlussel:


When I asked why the footbaths were being installed, Gallagher told me that this is "an accommodation to a significant portion of our student body and their friends and visitors in accordance with our mission." He said that it is a growing trend with Boston University, Cal State-Fullerton, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and Washington University of St. Louis, all installing footbaths. "We wanted to be part of that trend in accommodating Muslim students."

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

Gallagher said the foot baths are the result of "years of ongoing negotiations with the Muslim Student Association." The Chicago Tribune exposed the radical Muslim Student Association (MSA) as an American branch of the Egyptian terrorist group, Muslim Brotherhood, which took part in the murder of Egyptian President Anwar El-Sadat as well as the shootings at the Temples at Luxor.

[cartman]

The stated purpose of that footstation in that article is so it's easier for Muslims to wash their feet before prayer. I think that's fine, but I don't think it's right for EVERYONE to pay for it. If Muslim students wish to have something like this, they should foot the bill for it.

Again, if this were some sort of Christian thing, there would be huge protests that student money is being used for it.

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

[PSUColonel]

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

[PSUColonel]

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

then why do they need to be built?

[cartman]

The blog says that Gallagher quoted percentages, but in the article, Gallagher is quoted as saying they don't track enrollment by religious affiliation. Something doesn't add up there.

[WVUFAN]

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion.

My point is that is shouldn't matter what part of the student body is Muslim. Student fees on a public university should not be used for religious purposes.

Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims.
I consider them a religious tool in the same fashion as a holy water fountain . Neither would be built if not for religious needs. Seriously, would $100,000 have been spent on foot stations if NOT for Muslim student needs?

Again, I'm not saying Muslim students shouldn't be able to have foot stations installed. I'm saying that the Muslim student organizations should be the ones paying for it. Whether non-Muslim students can or can't use it is irrevelent. The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer, just like a holy water fountain is used by Catholics for much the same reason.

[sabotai]

The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer

They are being built because a large number of students are washing their feet in the sinks. Why they are washing their feet in the sink is irrelevent. There is a health and safety issue here that the school must address, and this is how they are addressing it.

[cartman]

I consider them a religious tool in the same fashion as a holy water fountain . Neither would be built if not for religious needs. Seriously, would $100,000 have been spent on foot stations if NOT for Muslim student needs?

Again, I'm not saying Muslim students shouldn't be able to have foot stations installed. I'm saying that the Muslim student organizations should be the ones paying for it. Whether non-Muslim students can or can't use it is irrevelent. The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer, just like a holy water fountain is used by Catholics for much the same reason.

The $100K was for the whole construction project. $25K of that was for the foot washing stations.

I agree that they wouldn't have been included if not for the requests of the Muslim students. If there had simply had a line-item in the construction that 3 of the sinks in each bathroom would have been built only 6 inches off of the ground, no one would have ever heard about this. The article doesn't mention it, but by your line of reasoning, if showers are part of the construction as well, they shouldn't be built either, since general body cleaning is part of the prayer ritual, and it you said it doesn't matter if a non-Muslim can use the bathroom fixture or not.

[Ksyrup]

I really have no comment on the main issue here, but I'd just like to point out that I don't understand the delineation between "student fees" and "taxpayer's money." The standard is simply the use of state/public funds, which would include funds generated both from state taxes and from state-mandated fees of any kind. AFAIK, once paid to the state, they become state funds, the use of which can be an issue with something like this. Again, I'm not really getting into whether the use here is proper, but this notion that the funds are protected because they are student fees doesn't seem to work. But this is hardly my area of expertise, so I could be wrong.

[Passacaglia]

So if I don't wash my hands, should I not have to pay for the sinks?

[st.cronin]

I have no problem whatsoever with this.

[duckman]

They are being built because a large number of students are washing their feet in the sinks. Why they are washing their feet in the sink is irrelevent. There is a health and safety issue here that the school must address, and this is how they are addressing it.

Bingo.

[Drake]

If this really bothers some students, they can always leave some dead fetal pigs in the sinks.

Problem solved.

[Passacaglia]

U of M is at it again

Has U of M done this before, or tried to do this before? I mean, it's not like I still live there or anything, but I've never heard about it.

[RendeR]

I am constantly stunned and amazed at the unbridled bigotry shown by certain persons on this board...and I'm ashamed that my home states primary college is represented by one of them.

[Radii]

My initial inclination is to agree with WVUFan here, the foot washing stations themselves are probably fine but I have an issue with the funding. I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.


Note, btw, that I'm agreeing with WVUFan here, not PSUColonel. PSU seems to want to use this story to attack those who attack Christianity based on his comments, and I'm not ok with that at all. "What if this were a crucifix" and "espicially those who don't give two craps about islam" really, really don't come off well in this argument, but on the whole I have a problem w/ this from a church and state issue.

[RendeR]

See the point here isn't that it is specifically for a religious reason, it is a SANTITATION issue. The students are going to wash their feet, wether they install these things or not. however if they do NOT install them, this large group of people are going to wash their feet in the sinks which directly impacts EVERY student and faculty member at the school.

There is NO issue whatsoever with the funding of these installations coming from the maintenance fees the students pay.

[st.cronin]

I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.

I actually have no knowledge of the law at all on this, but I'll see if I can defend this. Student fees are for student activities. Religious practice is a student activity, something that the students have decided, with no urging of the administration, to do.

[BrianD]

I agree that this sounds like much ado about nothing. Schools have to cater to their students. If the students are creating a sanitation problem because of the need to wash their feet, a foot washing station doesn't seem so terrible.

Not related, but every bar I've ever been at that contains a sand volleyball court has foot washing stations. If people need to wash their feet, give them a way to do it.

[RendeR]

I actually have no knowledge of the law at all on this, but I'll see if I can defend this. Student fees are for student activities. Religious practice is a student activity, something that the students have decided, with no urging of the administration, to do.

This money is coming from the maintence fees, which is simply the school taking money to upkeep the school, the students have no say and no rights in any way as to HOW the school uses that money. Its for upkeep of the campus and this project is simply that, upgrading the campus facilities.

[Izulde]

Or to look at it from another standpoint, how else would you solve the problem of students washing their feet in sinks?

Ban them from washing their feet in sinks?

Okay, you do that, then you need to find some way to monitor them so they don't *gasp* wash their feet in the sinks! Then there's the costs associated with punishing them for washing their feet, appeals, etc...

Given that these would also be recurring costs rather than largely being a one-off expense, from an economic standpoint, it makes sense to simply build the foot washing stations and be done with it.

[John Galt]

The blog says that Gallagher quoted percentages, but in the article, Gallagher is quoted as saying they don't track enrollment by religious affiliation. Something doesn't add up there.

Do a google search of "Debbie Schlussel" and you will find all the answers. The fact that PSUColonel cites her says a lot about him. I was going to post some blog entries from her about the Virginia Tech shooting, but she apparently decided to delete her posts (and all the ridiculous things she said in her own comments section). Here were the links (hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/is_this_ismail.html and hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/who_is_the_asia.html). She kept posting about how the media was covering up the fact that the shooter was Muslim despite all evidence to the contrary and said some really ugly things to commenters who disagreed.

Mediamatters has a summary of a few incidents, but they really miss out on the completely offensive, totally insane things she said about Virginia Tech (which I read in real-time): hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200705020006?src=item200705020006, hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200704170006.

She is basically an Anne Coulter wannabe who will say ANYTHING to get attention.

[Drake]

Yeah, cuz washing your feet in the sink is so much more unsanitary than washing the hands you just wiped your ass with. :)

That said, if they want to put in foot washing stations for whatever reason, I don't really care. If it *really* honks people off to pay a few extra bucks a year for this, they can always go to another university.

[Telle]

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

And while the person quoted said he couldn't think of any specific accommodations for Catholic students, I betcha their cafeteria makes sure there's meatless meals available in the cafeteria on Fridays during Lent.

[Draft Dodger]

Please!!.....Ok if that's the way you want it, I'll hang out in those baths all day reading my Bible...let's see what happens.

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

[st.cronin]

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

And while the person quoted said he couldn't think of any specific accommodations for Catholic students, I betcha their cafeteria makes sure there's meatless meals available in the cafeteria on Fridays during Lent.

Its a college cafeteria, they'll have vegetarian offerings every day. :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

:)

[Telle]

Its a college cafeteria, they'll have vegetarian offerings every day. :D

True enough.. although they'll probably also be more likely to have fish on Fridays, especially during Lent. Because although it's not required to eat fish, it's traditional to do so. (mmmmm... beer battered fish fries...)

[-Mojo Jojo-]

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

These numbers and the fact that there does not appear to be a single Muslim on the university's administration completely undercut the idea that there is any meaninful church-state issue here. This is hardly the tyranny of the majority. This was a completely non-muslim administration at an overwhelmingly non-muslim university taking an action to make its campus more hospitable to Muslims. If you don't understand why this fails to implicate the same church-state concerns invoked by, say, Christian elected officials in Christian-dominated communities posting the 10 Commandments all over the place, then you fail to have a basic grasp of what the basic doctrine is and why it exists. No one here sought to exercise or abuse political power to favor their own beliefs. If you want to have an exceedingly strict view of what separation of church and state means, I guess you can find an issue here. But if you look to the purpose of the doctrine, there is absolutely no cause for concern.

[Crapshoot]

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

see, this is why DD is cool. :D

[Karlifornia]

then why do they need to be built?

This person is past the point of no return.
He has such a victim complex that it could only be described as "Not quite scary, but a little too disturbing to be funny".

Getting your ass chapped over foot-washing stations? Oh, the horror! THEY'RE TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY!!!!!
SOON I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TURN AROUND WITHOUT SEEING FRESHLY WASHED MUSLIM FEET!!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
http://www.stgilesaintree.org.uk/images/module1/footwashing.jpg

[Passacaglia]

http://www.stgilesaintree.org.uk/images/module1/footwashing.jpg

Wait a minute...I never heard that these footwashing stations are equipped with footwashing servants. That changes everything.

[sabotai]

Another issue not broguth up is the potential for lawsuits. If some students slip, fall and injure themselves, they might sue the school. They might lose, but the cost to the university to fight the lawsuits, or to simply make settlements, would probably be a lot more than $25,000. So you spend $25,000 for foot baths so students won't need to wash their feet in sinks anymore, or you take the risk of spending millions fighting injury lawsuits.

[flere-imsaho]

I have no problem whatsoever with this.

Same here, but I'm a hippie liberal, so my opinion doesn't count. I'm not sure what's more amusing, though - the amount of time the right-wing blogosphere is spending on this (do a google of "Michigan footbath" and you'll see), or that PSU is demanding that the ACLU get involved.

This money is coming from the maintence fees, which is simply the school taking money to upkeep the school, the students have no say and no rights in any way as to HOW the school uses that money. Its for upkeep of the campus and this project is simply that, upgrading the campus facilities.

True, however students have a pretty long and rich history of protesting themselves silly whenever they feel their fees are being used for wrong/stupid reasons. I think the fact that they're not protesting probably means that they don't mind this use of their fees.

Another issue not broguth up is the potential for lawsuits. If some students slip, fall and injure themselves, they might sue the school. They might lose, but the cost to the university to fight the lawsuits, or to simply make settlements, would probably be a lot more than $25,000. So you spend $25,000 for foot baths so students won't need to wash their feet in sinks anymore, or you take the risk of spending millions fighting injury lawsuits.

You have the same problem with showers and, to a lesser extent, tiled floors under sinks and urinals. Unless you have actuarial data to back it up, I very much doubt there's a bump in insurance premiums for doing this, and the insurance rate would very much be the indicator of potential for injury/lawsuit.

[sabotai]

You have the same problem with showers and, to a lesser extent, tiled floors under sinks and urinals. Unless you have actuarial data to back it up, I very much doubt there's a bump in insurance premiums for doing this, and the insurance rate would very much be the indicator of potential for injury/lawsuit.

I think you misread what I wrote....

[Passacaglia]

If anyone's curious, here's a list of student groups at U of M. Note that all of these student groups receive money from student fees as well.

http://uuis.umich.edu/maizepgs/

[Passacaglia]

I think you misread what I wrote....

I think there was a potential ambiguity in the first part of your post. You mentioned students slipping and falling, but I was unsure if you meant from washing your feet in the sink, or from the footbath.

[flere-imsaho]

I think you misread what I wrote....

Actually, I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. My bad.

[sabotai]

I think there was a potential ambiguity in the first part of your post.

Yeah, I seem to do that a lot...

I meant slipping and falling from washing their feet in the sink. Putting footbaths in make it safer for the students who are currently washing their feet in the sink, thus lowering the potential for injury lawsuits.

[flere-imsaho]

I meant slipping and falling from washing their feet in the sink. Putting footbaths in make it safer for the students who are currently washing their feet in the sink, thus lowering the potential for injury lawsuits.

Gotcha. So basically this is a money-saving exercise by the U of M. I'm surprised conservatives aren't applauding this.

[Radii]

If anyone's curious, here's a list of student groups at U of M. Note that all of these student groups receive money from student fees as well.

http://uuis.umich.edu/maizepgs/

Scrollling through the list a group called "The F-Word" stood out as a group that I could really get behind and support, the name is pretty deceptive though.


The F-Word is a feminist activist organization that aims to reclaim feminism as a tool to empower young women. We focus on reproductive rights, economic and political advancement, as well as women's issues internationally.

[WVUFAN]

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

I understand where you're going with this, and I hadn't thought of it in that context.

If $100,000 (and they installed 4 footstations on campus, at $25,000 each, not just a single $25 thousand dollar cost) were spent on kosher or meatless food for Jewish or Catholic students, I would have a problem with that, too. In a public institution, no public funds should be spend for specific religious purposes. If you're gonna enforce that whole idea of church and state division, then enforce it for everyone.

But call it what it is ... this isn't a health issue, and that's not the reason why the colleges set this up. They set this up for convenience for Muslim students to pray, and that's perfectly fine they did it. My issue isn't with the footstations themselves, but how they're paying for it.

Again, if I were a member of a Catholic student organization and we wanted to install, for whatever reason, some system to make it easier for us to pray, I would fully expect that our organization to pay for it.

[dawgfan]

I also find it laughable that the ACLU won't get involved in this(likely because it fits their liberal template)...
Uh-huh. So defending the right of the KKK to march in public fits the "liberal template" of the ACLU?

[flere-imsaho]

They set this up for convenience for Muslim students to prey, and that's perfectly fine they did it.

Again, if I were a member of a Catholic student organization and we wanted to install, for whatever reason, some system to make it easier for us to pray, I would fully expect that our organization to pay for it.

Now there's an amusing freudian slip...

[WVUFAN]

Now there's an amusing freudian slip...

It's not a freudian slip, just a really bad spelling error.

(weak grin)

[path12]

I really need to stop clicking on PSUColonel threads. The idiocy smudges my soul.

[Telle]

(and they installed 4 footstations on campus, at $25,000 each, not just a single $25 thousand dollar cost)

Read it again. They're building two new bathrooms for a total cost of $100,000, including $25,000 for the footstations.

[WVUFAN]

Read it again. They're building two new bathrooms for a total cost of $100,000, including $25,000 for the footstations.

EDIT: Nope, you're right. It's $25,000. My mistake.

[PSUColonel]

My initial inclination is to agree with WVUFan here, the foot washing stations themselves are probably fine but I have an issue with the funding. I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.


Note, btw, that I'm agreeing with WVUFan here, not PSUColonel. PSU seems to want to use this story to attack those who attack Christianity based on his comments, and I'm not ok with that at all. "What if this were a crucifix" and "espicially those who don't give two craps about islam" really, really don't come off well in this argument, but on the whole I have a problem w/ this from a church and state issue.


ahem...if you look at my original comments at the start of this thread, you'd realize that my argument is exactly the same as WVUFan.

[PSUColonel]

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

;)

[John Galt]

I really need to stop clicking on PSUColonel threads. The idiocy smudges my soul.

A poetic diss. And an accurate one as well.

[PSUColonel]

These numbers and the fact that there does not appear to be a single Muslim on the university's administration completely undercut the idea that there is any meaninful church-state issue here. This is hardly the tyranny of the majority. This was a completely non-muslim administration at an overwhelmingly non-muslim university taking an action to make its campus more hospitable to Muslims. If you don't understand why this fails to implicate the same church-state concerns invoked by, say, Christian elected officials in Christian-dominated communities posting the 10 Commandments all over the place, then you fail to have a basic grasp of what the basic doctrine is and why it exists. No one here sought to exercise or abuse political power to favor their own beliefs. If you want to have an exceedingly strict view of what separation of church and state means, I guess you can find an issue here. But if you look to the purpose of the doctrine, there is absolutely no cause for concern.

I just don't see why the funds should go toward footbaths, when the majority of the people paying for them wil not be using them. I also fail to see how a student fund is somehow independent of tax money.

[JPhillips]

But that argument can be applied to lots of things. If the rule for spending has to be that it benefits a majority of students most items would have to be eliminated.

[st.cronin]

The overwhelming majority of the time religious practice is a good thing. Getting bent out of shape because a University is doing something which makes religious practice a better experience is an incredibly destructive reaction.

[Ksyrup]

The only potential issue I see here is whether state funds can be used for this purpose. The idea that, excising the religious issues from this, student activity fees should benefit X percent of the student population is a non-issue. I mean, I recall when I was at FSU students getting pissed that the activity fee funded, in part, student tickets to football games, when (a) some people didn't want to attend football games, and (b) there were more students than available tickets for every game, but there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it.

[PSUColonel]

Besides the "money issue" let's just take a look at what's going on in the world. I realize we all have religious freedom in this nation, but I do find it odd that public organizations are attempting to accomodate a potential enemy of the U.S. I also realize that not all muslims are enemies of this nation. However let's take a quick look at all of the conflicts around the world, and what those conflicts could mean for the United States as it pertains to the religion of islam:


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

[BrianD]

And here is the part where PSU goes completely off the deep end.

[BrianD]

dola,

Do I need to say "in before the lock" here?

[st.cronin]

Bye-bye, PSU.

[WVUFAN]

Besides the "money issue" let's just take a look at what's going on in the world. I realize we all have religious freedom in this nation, but I do find it odd that public organizations are attempting to accomodate a potential enemy of the U.S. I also realize that not all muslims are enemies of this nation. However let's take a quick look at all of the conflicts around the world, and what those conflicts could mean for the United States as it pertains to the religion of islam:


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

Here's where we're gonna differ, PSU.

It doesn't matter what religion this is. If Jewish people washes their feet before praying, I'd have the same problem. What religion this is being made for makes no difference whatsoever.

Also, for what it's worth, the enemy of the US is NOT the religion of Islam. That's like saying Christians are evil because of the morons in Kansas who protest funerals.

[Passacaglia]

And here is the part where PSU goes completely off the deep end.

Not yet. He's censoring himself a little still. He wrote an initial reply to DD (which I missed), then edited it to say "fuck you", then edited it again to the smiley.

[Passacaglia]

Besides the "money issue" let's just take a look at what's going on in the world. I realize we all have religious freedom in this nation, but I do find it odd that public organizations are attempting to accomodate a potential enemy of the U.S. I also realize that not all muslims are enemies of this nation. However let's take a quick look at all of the conflicts around the world, and what those conflicts could mean for the United States as it pertains to the religion of islam:


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

Word. Next thing you know, we'll all be taking our shoes off before we enter classrooms!

[path12]

Besides the "money issue" let's just take a look at what's going on in the world. I realize we all have religious freedom in this nation, but I do find it odd that public organizations are attempting to accomodate a potential enemy of the U.S. I also realize that not all muslims are enemies of this nation. However let's take a quick look at all of the conflicts around the world, and what those conflicts could mean for the United States as it pertains to the religion of islam:


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

Jesus. You, sir, are a supreme asshat.

[BrianD]

Not yet. He's censoring himself a little still. He wrote an initial reply to DD (which I missed), then edited it to say "fuck you", then edited it again to the smiley.

True, but he followed up his complain to Radii that he was making the same non-anti-Muslim complaints as WVU and then followed it up with a directly anti-Muslim rant. It is a little sad that he can't whip up the same level of ire from the rest of the board yet keeps trying.

[PSUColonel]

Here's where we're gonna differ, PSU.

It doesn't matter what religion this is. If Jewish people washes their feet before praying, I'd have the same problem. What religion this is being made for makes no difference whatsoever.

Also, for what it's worth, the enemy of the US is NOT the religion of Islam. That's like saying Christians are evil because of the morons in Kansas who protest funerals.

Very true, and I agree with your premise, but the idiots in Kansas aren't causing global conflicts on an unprecedented level either.

[Passacaglia]

True, but he followed up his complain to Radii that he was making the same non-anti-Muslim complaints as WVU and then followed it up with a directly anti-Muslim rant. It is a little sad that he can't whip up the same level of ire from the rest of the board yet keeps trying.

Yeah...I guess it's just that I'm curious as to what he could have said before he edited his first post -- I guess it was something meaner than "fuck you"

[Passacaglia]

Very true, and I agree with your premise, but the idiots in Kansas aren't causing global conflicts on an unprecedented level either.

But people washing their feet in Dearborn are?

[PSUColonel]

But people washing their feet in Dearborn are?

If they are muslim, it's certainly plausable that they dislike Israel and perhaps even western values. Again not all muslims fall into this category, but based on the bigger picture, there is a signifigant amount of muslim hate mongers out there compared to most other religions, hence the number of conflicts muslims are involved in globally in the name of islam.


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

[RendeR]

I just don't see why the funds should go toward footbaths, when the majority of the people paying for them wil not be using them. I also fail to see how a student fund is somehow independent of tax money.


You are missing the point on the money thing altogether.

This money is coming from the maintenance fund, this is not "public funding" this is a fee every student must pay to attend this school. This fee is in no way controlled or for the benefit of the students in specific. This money is for upgrade, upkeep and costs of maintaining the campus facilities. This isn't like an "activities fee" or something where the money is given to specific student groups for their own use. This money is the administration's in its entirity and can be used for any thing they so choose in terms of managing the campus facilities.

So, utterly failing in your "its public funding of religious BS" argument, you're left with little more than your freakishly right-wing ignorance and a deep rooted bigotry for muslims.

Must be good to be you eh?.......


Sheesh.

[Karlifornia]

I think I'm going to make some PSUColonel T-shirts. Any suggestions for what they say?

[RendeR]

Very true, and I agree with your premise, but the idiots in Kansas aren't causing global conflicts on an unprecedented level either.



this generalization is as bad as saying "Yeah but Christians haven't caused more deatha nd destruction in world history either."

My god do you even read your own posts?

[John Galt]

If they are muslim, it's certainly plausable that they dislike Israel and perhaps even western values. Again not all muslims fall into this category, but based on the bigger picture, there is a signifigant amount of muslim hate mongers out there compared to most other religions, hence the number of conflicts muslims are involved in globally in the name of islam.


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

I have to admit I didn't click on the link. But did you just cite Michael Savage as an authority? I mean, seriously? There's stupid and then there's evil. And then there is Michael Savage who manages to be both completely stupid and totally evil.

[RendeR]

I think I'm going to make some PSUColonel T-shirts. Any suggestions for what they say?


Pretty Stupid Uber-Colon Endlessly Lame

[flere-imsaho]

Also, for what it's worth, the enemy of the US is NOT the religion of Islam. That's like saying Christians are evil because of the morons in Kansas who protest funerals.

Thank you for saying it so that I didn't have to.

Not yet. He's censoring himself a little still. He wrote an initial reply to DD (which I missed), then edited it to say "fuck you", then edited it again to the smiley.

Bets on when he deletes the thread?

[Passacaglia]

I have to admit I didn't click on the link. But did you just cite Michael Savage as an authority? I mean, seriously? There's stupid and then there's evil. And then there is Michael Savage who manages to be both completely stupid and totally evil.

Twice. And it was the same exact link both times.

[Passacaglia]

Bets on when he deletes the thread?

I'll set the over/under equal to the time my flight leaves O'Hare. It's scheduled for 8:45 PM.

[JPhillips]

What a bullshit list.

Can we please get rid of PSU now?

[WVUFAN]

Very true, and I agree with your premise, but the idiots in Kansas aren't causing global conflicts on an unprecedented level either.

I'm a Catholic.

Having said that, the Catholic Church, on the whole, has DIRECTLY caused more pain and death and anguish over the course of it's life than any other religion. Does that mean I should be blamed for what others have done in the name of Christianity? Of course not, just as you shouldn't blame all Muslims for the acts of a very small minority.

Again, the acts of a small minority does not justify the hatred of everyone in the group. Any religion, when taken to the extreme, is capable of some pretty bad stuff.

EDIT: Let's get back on track, and not turn this into an anti-Muslim thing. We've been down that road before, and it doesn't end well. This issue isn't what religion it is, but rather how funds are being used.

[JPhillips]

The formatting is off, but for those who won't click the link, here's PSU's "insight".

Muslims at war with the world…
Areas w/ current conflicts Groups Involved What the Mulims want

Afghanistan Muslims & Non-Muslims A pure Islamic society
Extreme radical fundamentalist want a pure Islamic society in Afghanistan…
EU Muslims & the world World domination
Muslims want the EU out of Iraq & to destroy western civilization and have Islam sweep the EU…
India Muslims & Hindus Religious sites
Muslims are fighting over historic Muslim religious sites through out the country…
Indonesia Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
Muslims want to drive out Christians in the Province of Halmahera…
Iraq Muslims (Shiite & Sunni) & Kurds Gov’t control
Muslims are fighting over gov’t control and fundamental beliefs through out the country…
Israel Muslims & Jews Extermination & Land
Muslims want to exterminate the Jews and to take their land…
Kashmir Muslims & Hindus Control & Land
Muslims would like Kashmir to fall under Pakistan’s jurisdiction…
Kurdistan Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
Muslims want to drive out Christians and take gov’t control…
Maldives Muslims & Non-Muslims A pure Islamic society
Extreme radical fundamentalist want a pure Islamic society in the Maldives…
Nigeria Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
Muslims in the N. are battling Christians in the S. trying to maintain a military dictatorship…
Pakistan Muslims (Sunni & Shiite) Religious Beliefs
Muslims are fighting over gov’t control and fundamental beliefs through out the country…
Palestine Muslims & Jews Extermination & Land
Muslims want to exterminate the Jews and to take their land and hand it to Palestine…
Philippines Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
Muslims in the S. are battling Christians in the N. trying to seek gov’t control…
Russia Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
Chechnya wants autonomy and has vowed to blow up every Christian church in Russia…
Sudan Muslims & Christians Gov’t control
The Muslim regime wants absolute control and has committed Genocide in the country…
U.S. Muslims & the world World domination
Muslims want the U.S out of the Middle East and to destroy western civilization and have Islam
sweep the EU…

These are just a handful of ongoing Muslim wars around the world. The
general consensus from this information compiled clearly shows that what
the Muslims want is Islamic control of the world and death to all who refuse
to convert!!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

And then there is Michael Savage who manages to be both completely stupid and totally evil.

If ever there's been a time when an emoticon applied perfectly, this is it.

:rolleyes:

[Tyrith]

I don't have a problem with UM doing something to help support a religious minority on campus. I do have a problem with the fact that if the religious majority wanted some sort of convenience the entire county would blow up. Part of protecting the minority from the majority is that the majority presumably gets its way every once in a while. In this country we've practically made it a sin to be a white Christian male. I'm for equal rights and practices for everyone, and everyone includes the average guy.

[JPhillips]

I don't know about UM Dearborn, but look around at how many public campuses have chapels. This idea that Christians are persecuted is silly.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

1. $25,000 for foot baths? Basically that's low sinks, right? If I go to Home Depot I can do the job for probably $1500...

2. Will this be similar to how you pee on the wall in Michigan Stadium and there is a gutter to catch it, but one part of the gutter will be walled off with a block M in tiles to identify it for Muslems foot washing area instead of the place your used Heineken goes when you're finished with it? I wonder how that would work out...

3. After living near, working with andgoing to school with many Arab Muslems (and many Arabs in general,) I am 100% for anything they do in washing their bodies. Deodorant too.

[wade moore]

A poetic diss. And an accurate one as well.
It's good to see you posting again.

[WVUFAN]

If they are muslim, it's certainly plausable that they dislike Israel and perhaps even western values. Again not all muslims fall into this category, but based on the bigger picture, there is a signifigant amount of muslim hate mongers out there compared to most other religions, hence the number of conflicts muslims are involved in globally in the name of islam.


http://www.savage-productions.com/Muslim_World_Conflicts.pdf

You saying "all Muslims hate Jews" is like saying "all Catholics hate gays". I know that's not exactly what you said, but it's certainly inferred in the message, and it's not true. It's not wise to stereotype an entire group of people by a select group's actions.

Also, y'know, I have some pretty right-wing viewpoints, but this Michael Savage guy seems way out there. Does he have a radio show or something?

[PSUColonel]

You saying "all Muslims hate Jews" is like saying "all Catholics hate gays". I know that's not exactly what you said, but it's certainly inferred in the message, and it's not true. It's not wise to stereotype an entire group of people by a select group's actions.

Also, y'know, I have some pretty right-wing viewpoints, but this Michael Savage guy seems way out there. Does he have a radio show or something?



I did state that not all muslims fall into this category, in fact I would say most (in America) don't. The problem is that there is enough who do (worldwide) to make it significant, but what's worse is that many who do fall into this group act out violently. With illegal immigration running rampant, it's hard to know which muslims may or may not be dangerous. But it's also evident that many muslims want to change much of the established American culture as well. Many people don't seem to want to look at what's happening in Europe as a precursor to what could (and likely already is) happen here in th U.S.


Savage is a conservative radio host based in San Francisco.


http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

[John Galt]

It's good to see you posting again.

Thanks. But of all the threads I chose to wander into . . .

[Telle]

I don't have a problem with UM doing something to help support a religious minority on campus. I do have a problem with the fact that if the religious majority wanted some sort of convenience the entire county would blow up. Part of protecting the minority from the majority is that the majority presumably gets its way every once in a while. In this country we've practically made it a sin to be a white Christian male. I'm for equal rights and practices for everyone, and everyone includes the average guy.

Do you have any specific examples of instances in which a religious majority on a college campus requested a comparable convenience and was denied it?

[PSUColonel]

I'm a Catholic.

Having said that, the Catholic Church, on the whole, has DIRECTLY caused more pain and death and anguish over the course of it's life than any other religion. Does that mean I should be blamed for what others have done in the name of Christianity? Of course not, just as you shouldn't blame all Muslims for the acts of a very small minority.

Again, the acts of a small minority does not justify the hatred of everyone in the group. Any religion, when taken to the extreme, is capable of some pretty bad stuff.

EDIT: Let's get back on track, and not turn this into an anti-Muslim thing. We've been down that road before, and it doesn't end well. This issue isn't what religion it is, but rather how funds are being used.


I agree that this is true of Christians, but we can only influence the present, and not the past. The fact is right now, most all conflicts around the globe involve muslims on some level. But getting back to the point, I am NOT BLAMING ALL MUSLIMS FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING. I don't know how many times I have to state this. I say it, but people just seem to read right over it as though I must somehow not mean it.

[John Galt]

If ever there's been a time when an emoticon applied perfectly, this is it.

:rolleyes:

It doesn't surprise me that you are a Savage fan. However, there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that he is both evil and stupid (or just a pathological liar). Anyone can do a google search and find plenty of ugly and stupid things he said. Wiki's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator))on him is far from complete, but these are some highlights:

There was the famous, but hardly his worst comment, that got him fired from his MSNBC show: "Oh, so you're one of those sodomites. You should only get AIDS and die, you pig, how's that? Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig? You got nothing better to do than to put me down, you piece of garbage. You got nothing better to do today. Go eat a sausage, and choke on it. Get trichinosis. Now do we have another nice caller here who's busy because he didn't have a nice night in the bathhouse who's angry at me today? Put another, put another sodomite on....no more calls? I don't care about these bums; they mean nothing to me. They're all sausages."

"On June 12, 2006, Savage said that Soros should 'shut [his] mouth and understand the damage [he's] doing to this world and to the Jewish people,' calling Soros among other things a 'punk lying coward satanist backstabbing freak' and saying that people like Soros 'brought about the Holocaust.'"

"On August 7, 2006, he said during his radio program: 'That's why the department store dummy named Wolf Blitzer, a Jew who was born in Israel, will do the astonishing act of being the type that would stick Jewish children into a gas chamber to stay alive another day. He's probably the most despicable man in the media next to Larry King, who takes a close runner-up by the hair of a nose. The two of them together look like the type that would have pushed Jewish children into the oven to stay alive one more day to entertain the Nazis.'"

In the stupid and evil category he said, "Your children's future is what we're talking about, a matter of life and death for their future. The gay and lesbian mafia wants our children. If it can win their souls and their minds, it knows their bodies will follow. Of course, it wants to homosexualize the whole country, not just the children. This is all part of the war that is going on. Maybe you don't want to face up to it, but it's a very real war. It's being inflicted on the American people by the radical gay lobby, which is now everywhere."

Like you Jon, he has called for a nuclear strike on a major Arab city. And I'm sure you would agree when "He has also called for 'an outright ban on Muslim immigration.'"

In another stupid and evil statement, "On October 9, 2006, Savage called former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright a 'traitor' because the Clinton administration was in office when North Korea bought two nuclear reactors from a Western company in 2000. Savage said that Albright should be "tried for treason; and when she’s found guilty, she should be hung.'"

And while he has many bizarre theories about the world, one of his strangest was surely blaming Columbine on sex change surgery: "Guy is fifty-five years old. He had three children. He discovers there was a woman within, and he goes -- shots and hormones, three years of hormones, and live like a woman. And then you gotta dress like a woman for two years. And then they go to a psychopathic, sadistic doctor who does the thing for them. No more in Denmark -- I mean, the capital of it is somewhere in Colorado, of course, near Columbine. You wonder why the kids shoot each other there with black raincoats. But that's the sex change capital of the world -- in America, rather -- is somewhere in Colorado; they cut off the willies and they put on the willies, depending on whether you're a Johnny or a Jane."

Those are just the Wiki quotes - you can find many more and much worse statements across the web. Savage is hate radio. I guess you are fan, but there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that he is a total idiot and completely evil. So "if ever there's been a time when an [eyerolling] emoticon applied perfectly, this" certainly was not it.

[MIJB#19]

PSUColonel does have a point. These Muslims need to be stopped, with their desire for world domination, they're clearly turning into Americans. :rolleyes:

[RedKingGold]

PSUColonel does have a point. These Muslims need to be stopped, with their desire for world domination, they're clearly turning into Americans. :rolleyes:

Well, the Americans wouldn't have to take control of the world if the Dutch would stop polluting the world with useless production of wooden clogs. ;)

[Butter]

This makes good business sense for Michigan... there are a lot of Muslim students in America who want to go to a good engineering school, and this is just one more point for UM.

[Izulde]

Why yes, let's ban all Muslim immigration! We don't have nearly enough brain drain going on in this country!