Bonds Ties Aaron

[JetsIn06]

He just tied for 755

[clintl]

And what surprises me is that the Padres fans gave him a standing ovation. Not a boo to be heard.

[mauchow]

'Bout damn time.

[Qrusher14242]

i couldnt even watch it live. Its blacked out here on DISH.

[KWhit]

Damn.

[johnnyshaka]

Odd to see him hit the pitch he hit out...high and outside and goes the other way. How many balls have you seen Bonds hit the other way in the last 5 years??

[JetsIn06]

And what surprises me is that the Padres fans gave him a standing ovation. Not a boo to be heard.

Yea. It was such a weird feeling watching it. It was almost just....awkward. I remember when McGwire tied Maris I was goin crazy. Everyone was. And that was only a single season record.

This just felt weird...I don't know how to explain it.

[JetsIn06]

Odd to see him hit the pitch he hit out...high and outside and goes the other way. How many balls have you seen Bonds hit the other way in the last 5 years??

Yea. I have to watch again, but the announcers said that the pitch was a ball. And it definitely was weird seeing him hit it opposite field.

Did anyone see that he was doing batting practice HOURS before the game...and the announcers said he hasn't done that in forever

[clintl]

Odd to see him hit the pitch he hit out...high and outside and goes the other way. How many balls have you seen Bonds hit the other way in the last 5 years??

Actually, quite a few. He has hit a lot of his AT&T Park homers to left. He almost never hits ground balls the other way, but he does hit fly balls the other way.

[ISiddiqui]

Yay!

Hopefully 756 comes faster than 754 to 755.

[Senator]

This is the greatest moment ever.

[cartman]

This is the greatest moment ever.

I beg to differ. :D

How about this? (http://www.photofile.com/navbar/clc/PL/05YoungVinceRoseBowl4.jpg)

[cartman]

or this:

Another great moment (http://misanthronomicon.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/ryan_ventura.jpg)

[st.cronin]

This is the greatest moment ever.

No. The greatest moment ever was the time I first felt boob.

[WVUFAN]

I beg to differ. :D


As do I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTev5pSuYLk

[Radii]

or this:

Another great moment (http://misanthronomicon.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/ryan_ventura.jpg)

hah! that is truly a great one.

[johnnyshaka]

Actually, quite a few. He has hit a lot of his AT&T Park homers to left. He almost never hits ground balls the other way, but he does hit fly balls the other way.

Really?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerHitChart?categoryId=85852

[cartman]

And what surprises me is that the Padres fans gave him a standing ovation. Not a boo to be heard.

Barry, they aren't booing, they are chanting "Joo-cer"

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/3329/PeytonMann_Mazur_5448060_400.jpg

[st.cronin]

And what surprises me is that the Padres fans gave him a standing ovation. Not a boo to be heard.

I'm not sure why, but there are people out there who are Bonds fans. For obvious reasons, they are much more likely to buy tickets to these games than people who either dislike him or are just apathetic to the whole thing. I'm not a bit surprised he got cheered.

[spleen1015]

Whether he juiced or not, 756 will be historic.

[SteelerFan448]

I really didn't care. After all of this steroid involvement in MLB, I will view 61 and 755 as the big milestones.

[CU Tiger]

I really didn't care. After all of this steroid involvement in MLB, I will view 61 and 755 as the big milestones.


you are right.
And given all the medicinal benefits Ripken's streak should bee discounted as well.

Ripken took aver 80 cortisone shots in his career. Only available by perscription, luckily his team doc could script and shoot at the same time. Is it really different?

I dont care about Bonds either way, and I have a very twisteed view on the steroid issue, but I cant understand this mentality.

[Senator]

I beg to differ. :D

How about this? (http://www.photofile.com/navbar/clc/PL/05YoungVinceRoseBowl4.jpg)

I was just being a smart ass. Don't care at all.

[dime]

you are right.
And given all the medicinal benefits Ripken's streak should bee discounted as well.

Ripken took aver 80 cortisone shots in his career. Only available by perscription, luckily his team doc could script and shoot at the same time. Is it really different?

I dont care about Bonds either way, and I have a very twisteed view on the steroid issue, but I cant understand this mentality.


the difference is that cortisone shots aren't illegal, and any player can use them if he so chooses to. also, who gives a shit about ripken's "record"? the hype around that was such a joke.

[sabotai]

Ripken took aver 80 cortisone shots in his career. Only available by perscription, luckily his team doc could script and shoot at the same time. Is it really different?

Yes. Extremely different. For one, people typically will get a cortisone shot from their doctor when they see him/her, and I'm guessing a team doctor is still a licensed doctor. It's not something that you get a perscription for and then get it from a pharmacy. So "script and shoot at the same time" is what all doctors do for their patients when they give a cortisone shot.

Secondly, they're not illegal.

[ISiddiqui]

the difference is that cortisone shots aren't illegal, and any player can use them if he so chooses to. also, who gives a shit about ripken's "record"? the hype around that was such a joke.

Well, if you care about the numbers, Gehrig's 2130 wasn't too far behind Ruth's 60 and 715 or Aaron's amphetamines boosted (*) 61 and 755.

[SackAttack]

Well, if you care about the numbers, Gehrig's 2130 wasn't too far behind Ruth's 60 and 715 or Aaron's amphetamines boosted (*) 61 and 755.

Aaron never hit 61.

Are you using illicit substances, too? :)

[ISiddiqui]

Add Maris in there after Aaron if it makes you feel better :p.

[sooner333]

Yay!

Hopefully 756 comes faster than 754 to 755.

Hopefully not much faster--I'm going to the Giants-Pirates game on Friday!

[stevew]

Assuming Bonds hangs it up after this year, we should have the Arod ties Bonds thread in about 2015.

It's a shame that Griffey had such a lousy decade, I'd much rather see him as the guy with the record than Bonds.

[Karlifornia]

BARRY BONDS, FUCK YEAH!

HERE TO HIT ANOTHER MOTHERFUCKIN' HOME RUN!

BARRY BONDS, FUCK YEAH!

HANK AARONS LAME ASS RECORD UNDONE!


Rooting for the anti-hero is more fun than I ever could have imagined!

[BigDawg]

What I find realy funny for all the BONDS haters is that the pitcher that gave up #755 last night has a POSITIVE TEST for steriods....

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[BigDawg]

Are you serious anyone that didn't know hell 10 years ago a BIG % of sport athletes were on the juice but now want to make a stink about it is a hypocrite. If you all are sooooooooo offended you would have refused to pay for a ticket to go watch TAINTED SPORTS... give me a break

[larrymcg421]

What I find realy funny for all the BONDS haters is that the pitcher that gave up #755 last night has a POSITIVE TEST for steriods....

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

It really wasn't that funny the first time. There was no need to copy/paste it into another thread.

[PilotMan]

Bonds and baseball are both in the wrong on this one, but as a fan, and personal Barry hater, it should be clear where I stand on this one.

[TroyF]

Are you serious anyone that didn't know hell 10 years ago a BIG % of sport athletes were on the juice but now want to make a stink about it is a hypocrite. If you all are sooooooooo offended you would have refused to pay for a ticket to go watch TAINTED SPORTS... give me a break


This is the one arguement I can't stomach.

It's the FANS fault that Barry (or other players) used illegal substances to get records? Ummmm. . . no, it's not. That's the league's job, not ours.

I really don't care about this to be honest. We've known this was going to happen for awhile. I do blame baseball for the position they put themselves in. By overlooking a problem they will soon have their most sacred record tainted. Maybe they'll learn from this. Maybe they won't.


Honestly, I just want it over with. Hit your HR Barry. Get your name in the record books. End all of the Barry watches in the papers and on the net. Retire. The record is a number that will be judged by each baseball "fan" individually. Some will honor it, some will pretend it doesn't exist, some will tell their kids of the big headed steroid freak that broke Hammerin Hank's record, some will tell their kids of the Mvp's Bonds had before the juice talk. . .

No matter what any of our opinions are, that isn't going to change. What will change is getting baseball back to covering the four divisional races that are within 2.5 games and not spending 20 minutes a newscast on Barry. Please Barry, just hit the damned thing and be done with it. k. thx.

[terpkristin]

I think it's kind of sad, but it is what it is. we may always assume but never know who juiced when and may never know what types of drugs were done in the past.

i'm saddened that players these days seem to be playing for stats and money, not because they truly love the game. bonds only came back (repeatedly) to break this record, with or without a taint. clemens keeps coming back because he's a greedy pig. i compare this to cal's record, which some may say is tainted because he had cortisone injections (i disagree), where he loved the game, went on to play another 500 some odd games over the record, and is still active in the community, not some overpaid overhyped analyst for espn.

bonds was likely a HOF'er without the record, and it feels kind of cheap to me the way he's handled himself in tying it (and eventually making a new record). alas. what can you do.

/tk

[Galaril]

May the ghost of Ty Cobb haunt this cheating fucker. It isn't the fact that this guy used Roids guys like Sosa and others have as well. The real prob with Bonds is every indication is he is a fucking asshole. That is why he deserves to be booed. All I can say is we were hoping here in Boston he broke the record when he visited Boston. He would of got a real congratulatory cheer here;) Shame on you San Diego;(

[Carman Bulldog]

Can someone please explain to me what Bonds did that was so wrong?

THG (the designer drug in the BALCO investigations) was not banned by either the FDA or MLB (or any other anti-doping agency) until late 2003.

While, I am of the opinion that Bonds was on "the clear", he's not a stupid guy and probably quit using it when it became illegal.

Furthermore, their is no evidence to support otherwise. All of the BALCO allegations support that Bonds was on THG but that was before it became a banned substance. There is no evidence (and no allegations outside of fans and media) that support Bonds using any steroids since.

As for the matter of longevity, Hank Aaron's final big year was 1973 when at the start of the year he was 39 years, 2 months old. He hit 40 HR's and batted .300 that season. Bonds final big season came in 2004 when he was 39 years, 8 months old. Bonds longevity numbers are no more obscure than Aaron's, outside of 2001 where he hit 73, which could be attributed to THG, which was not a banned substance at that time.

THG does not make you swing quicker, hit harder, give you a better eye of the strike zone, etc. It allows an athlete to train harder for a longer period of time. You still have to do all of the work (actually in this case more work) with the only difference being that you are able to train more often because your body is recovering that much quicker.

While the theory (including my own) is that he did use THG, he never broke any federal or anti-doping regulations while doing so. Blaming the guy for this would be akin to cortisone becoming banned today and people calling for Ripken to be stripped of his record. The fact is that when the drug was used, it was not illegal.

As for the whole asshole thing, I believe that this is heavily perpetuated by the media and bought into by fans who dislike Bonds because they follow the mainstream media like sheep. The question needs to be asked, why is Bonds an asshole to the media? I know that if I was being constantly persecuted and facing allegations of wrong doing (when as pointed out earlier, nothing illegal was done), then I would probably be a bit of an asshole to this group as well.

By all accounts, outside of the odd instance (JT Snow or Jeff Kent - forget which one), Bonds has gotten along very well with teammates, managers, and fans in San Fransisco.

[spleen1015]

I think I heard once that Bonds' poor attitude towards the media stems from the media treating his father poorly or not respecting his father. Not sure if that is factual or not.

[clintl]

I think I heard once that Bonds' poor attitude towards the media stems from the media treating his father poorly or not respecting his father. Not sure if that is factual or not.

Yes, that's true. Bonds has been pretty open that he didn't feel the media treated his father well. I don't know if actually true or not that the media treated his father badly - I remember Bobby Bonds as a fan favorite who got mostly positive press when he was a Giant, but things may have changed after he got traded to the Yankees and had a nomadic career thereafter.

[larrymcg421]

Can someone please explain to me what Bonds did that was so wrong?

THG (the designer drug in the BALCO investigations) was not banned by either the FDA or MLB (or any other anti-doping agency) until late 2003.

While, I am of the opinion that Bonds was on "the clear", he's not a stupid guy and probably quit using it when it became illegal.

Furthermore, their is no evidence to support otherwise. All of the BALCO allegations support that Bonds was on THG but that was before it became a banned substance. There is no evidence (and no allegations outside of fans and media) that support Bonds using any steroids since.

Well, it's all settled then. He can just come out and say he never used after 2003 when it became illegal, so he never broke any rules, which makes it okay. Nah, he'll probably still stick to that assinine flaxseed oil story.

As for the matter of longevity, Hank Aaron's final big year was 1973 when at the start of the year he was 39 years, 2 months old. He hit 40 HR's and batted .300 that season. Bonds final big season came in 2004 when he was 39 years, 8 months old. Bonds longevity numbers are no more obscure than Aaron's, outside of 2001 where he hit 73, which could be attributed to THG, which was not a banned substance at that time.

Barry Bonds: 5 of his top 6 HR seasons come age 35 and later. Comparing his career arc to Hank Aaron's is pretty silly.

As for the whole asshole thing, I believe that this is heavily perpetuated by the media and bought into by fans who dislike Bonds because they follow the mainstream media like sheep.

I think people that support Bonds fuck their mothers. I mean, if we're just going to throw blanket insults around...

The question needs to be asked, why is Bonds an asshole to the media? I know that if I was being constantly persecuted and facing allegations of wrong doing (when as pointed out earlier, nothing illegal was done), then I would probably be a bit of an asshole to this group as well.

Except he's been a dick well before the steroid accusations came out. What was he being persecuted on back then, other than his pathetic postseason play?

[dime]

the "media was mean to my dad" line might be a nice excuse, but it's far from reality. bonds has always just been a very insecure, bitter person. he was hated by teammates and coaches at ASU, long before the media or fans or anyone else could have been blamed for souring him. the guy would watch the equipment kid cleaning up the locker room and then throw his sweaty jock on the floor and point it out "hey, pick this one up too" just to watch him walk over and do it. the coach and then-captain oddibe mcdowell all confronted him on different occassions about his behavior and attitude, but bonds has always felt entitled and too proud to listen to anyone else. a perfect example of talent gone wrong.

as for the folks who are uncertain as to whether or not he did steroids...are you serious? pull your head out of your ass. the guy looks like the elephant man for christ's sake. he was the best player in baseball and now he's a fat, slow freak with a distended stomach and a swollen skull. that is sad.

what's really sad is that the dissenters and rabble-rousers who delight in defending bonds won't give two shits about the inevitible early death from unnatural causes that is in his future. barry can go sit next to lyle alzado and eddie guerrero in the steroid overuse hall of fame.

[Bad-example]

what's really sad is that the dissenters and rabble-rousers who delight in defending bonds won't give two shits about the inevitible early death from unnatural causes that is in his future. barry can go sit next to lyle alzado and eddie guerrero in the steroid overuse hall of fame.

It is ridiculous to say that Barry's defenders wouldn't be upset if he were to have an untimely death that could possibly be blamed on steroid use. The truly sad thing is the haters that would laugh and celebrate should something like that come to pass.

[dime]

It is ridiculous to say that Barry's defenders wouldn't be upset if he were to have an untimely death that could possibly be blamed on steroid use. The truly sad thing is the haters that would laugh and celebrate should something like that come to pass.

maybe I'm naive, but I can't imagine that any of "barry's defenders" actually give a shit about the guy. they like him because he plays for their favorite team, or because defending him makes them feel progressive or enlightened in some way. there is really nothing about him or what he's done that is worthy of defense, his defenders seem to be devil's advocates or horse's asses who would cheer stalin if he batted 4th for the giants.

in any event, it certainly isn't "ridiculous" to suggest that those mentioned above will have little to say when bonds faces the consequences of his shamelessly selfish pursuit of immortality. how ironic!

[Bad-example]

his defenders seem to be devil's advocates or horse's asses who would cheer stalin if he batted 4th for the giants.

Fuck you, too.

[Carman Bulldog]

Well, it's all settled then. He can just come out and say he never used after 2003 when it became illegal, so he never broke any rules, which makes it okay. Nah, he'll probably still stick to that assinine flaxseed oil story.

Why should he? He's already been vilified enough. What purpose would it serve? "Aha, we were right all along. And if you did it before, you must have done it after."

The fact is that he did not do anything illegal so why should he have to admit to doing it.

Barry Bonds: 5 of his top 6 HR seasons come age 35 and later. Comparing his career arc to Hank Aaron's is pretty silly.

Hmm... Aaron put up 203 homers from the five year stretch of 1969-1973. That was the most productive span of his career and that began when he turned 35 years old. I think drawing a career arc to Bonds is fairly safe.

1954 - 1958 = 140 (age 20-24)
1959 - 1963 = 202 (age 25-29)
1964 - 1968 = 168 (age 30-34)
1969 - 1973 = 203 (age 35-39)

Keep in mind that I have already conceded that Bonds used a performance enhancing drug, albeit one that was not illegal at the time it was used. What is Aaron's explanation for his resurgence? Keep in mind that Aaron had 550 more AB's between 64-68 than 69-73.

I think people that support Bonds fuck their mothers. I mean, if we're just going to throw blanket insults around...

All I am saying is that I have not heard many arguments from people for their dislike of Bonds other than that which has been perpetuated (and shoved down people's throats) by the mainstream media. If you had a personal experience with Bonds where he treated you like shit, my apologies.

Except he's been a dick well before the steroid accusations came out. What was he being persecuted on back then, other than his pathetic postseason play?

Has Barry always been arrogant? Yes, I'm sure he has, he's not the first athlete and won't be the last. And Barry has never liked talking to the media and for good reason as even back in the Pittsburgh days he was not comfortable with how his quotes were presented. However, the treatment he receives from the media would put O.J. and Tyson to shame. I'm not sure what he's done to be grouped with those guys.

As for being a Barry defender, I'm neither a Giant fan nor a Barry fan (nor do I feel progressive or enlightened in some way). Furthermore, I'm not sure if I could be classified as a Barry defender considering that I believe that he used THG. However, I'm also not one to simply jump on the media propelled "Hate Barry" bandwagon because hating Bonds is the cool thing to do these days. Want proof, talk to a casual sports fan or even a non-fan. While they know little about what else is going on in baseball, they could go on a rant about how evil Bonds is and why they hate him.

Furthermore, I won't be surprised if Barry dies at an early age just like I wasn't surprised when Walter Payton died young.

[SackAttack]

The fact is that he did not do anything illegal so why should he have to admit to doing it.

You might want to rethink your word choice there.

Not outlawed by MLB rules != "legal."

MLB may not have policed their sport for steroid usage, but possession and usage without a prescription is absolutely a felony, which is another word for "illegal."

[Atocep]

Why should he? He's already been vilified enough. What purpose would it serve? "Aha, we were right all along. And if you did it before, you must have done it after."

So he shouldn't tell the truth, because people already know the truth and have given him shit for lying about it?

[Rizon]

Worst. Thread. Ever.
(until the Bonds Hits 756 thread)

[Fouts]

Predictable outcome to any thread involving Barry Bonds.

[Carman Bulldog]

You might want to rethink your word choice there.

Not outlawed by MLB rules != "legal."

MLB may not have policed their sport for steroid usage, but possession and usage without a prescription is absolutely a felony, which is another word for "illegal."

If you would bother to read the earlier posts, you would realize that THG was not banned by the FDA until the fall of 2003 at which time it is my opinion that Bonds stopped using it.

I never said that what Bonds did displayed good ethics or morals, only that it was within the rules, he did not cheat, and he did not do anything illegal, either by MLB or federal standards.

So he shouldn't tell the truth, because people already know the truth and have given him shit for lying about it?

All I know is that, under the current Bonds - media relationship, if I didn't do anything wrong, I wouldn't be in a hurry to confess to any actions which could me manipulated by the media.

[SackAttack]

Carman - your "opinion" on the matter is just as worthless as anybody else's if you're rolling with "innocent until proven guilty," no?

So what it boils down to is, if we don't know specifically what he used, we cannot say that his activity was for certain legal. THG might not have been banned...but what about good old-fashioned anabolic steroids? There was no test for those as recently as 2001, when the activity is alleged to have occurred.

If he used federally restricted supplements without a prescription, he broke the law. Therefore, whatever MLB's enforcement structure is or was, the word "illegal" could have entirely different implications than those you're using.

That's all I'm saying. Be careful of throwing around the word "illegal" in a context that may not be proper.

[Chubby]

Just because he used the newest and unknown drug at the time doesn't put him in the "clear".

[dawgfan]

what's really sad is that the dissenters and rabble-rousers who delight in defending bonds won't give two shits about the inevitible early death from unnatural causes that is in his future. barry can go sit next to lyle alzado and eddie guerrero in the steroid overuse hall of fame.
Utter bullshit. Lyle Alzado's brain cancer was highly unlikely to have been related to his juicing, and in fact his personal physician flat out stated it wasn't true. Eddie Guerrero was a long-time substance abuser, including alcohol and narcotics addictions. I've seen no evidence claiming his death by heart failure was attributable to steroid abuse.

[spleen1015]

Funny little footnote....

The pitcher who gave up Bonds' 755 HR has been suspended for steroid usage while in the minors.

[SFL Cat]

Juicing or not, he's got the record now.

However, I'll doubt he'll ever be revered like players like Ruth or Aaron. Being a 1st Class a-hole all these years will have its cost.

I'm in the camp of "who gives a sh*t about Bonds and the record?" Now that he has it, hopefully he'll retire and we won't have to hear about him any longer.

[oykib]

A few points. Aaron's best season came when he was 37.

His HR numbers were amazing in his later years because he stayed great and they lowered the mound and tightened the ball as he moved to more HR friendly parks from '69 onward.

Barry Bonds, steroids aside has had the greatest MLB career ever. How much of that should be attributed to THG after '98 is up to each person to determine.

But the "fact" that he's an asshole is not really something we'll ever know. None of us know the man.

[Izulde]

FWIW, I don't have a problem with being an asshole. For me, athletes are about their performance on the field, not their personality.

I -do- have a problem with him juicing though. It's cheating and for that I'll consider the record tainted until someone, hopefully A-Rod, breaks it.

[BigDawg]

May the ghost of Ty Cobb haunt this cheating fucker. It isn't the fact that this guy used Roids guys like Sosa and others have as well. The real prob with Bonds is every indication is he is a fucking asshole. That is why he deserves to be booed. All I can say is we were hoping here in Boston he broke the record when he visited Boston. He would of got a real congratulatory cheer here;) Shame on you San Diego;(

Are you kidding me Cobb and Ruth were not sweethearts , they probibly make Barry look like a boyscout. Mantle I could go on and on about the assholes in baseball.

[dime]

Utter bullshit. Lyle Alzado's brain cancer was highly unlikely to have been related to his juicing, and in fact his personal physician flat out stated it wasn't true. Eddie Guerrero was a long-time substance abuser, including alcohol and narcotics addictions. I've seen no evidence claiming his death by heart failure was attributable to steroid abuse.

Alzado would disagree with you. As for Guerrero, it only takes an elementary understanding of long-term steroid abuse to understand the kind of stress it puts on the heart and liver.

edit - in the interest of full disclosure, I don't oppose bonds on some moral aspect, although I would consider what he did 'cheating'. I believe that he is just one of many (mcgwire, sosa, clemens, most of texas and baltimore's 90s teams, etc.) who did so. I think bonds was the best player in baseball in the early 90s, and that he was offended by the adulation given to mcgwire and sosa because they were inferior players. He got huge with chemical assistance and started hitting a ton of homers. His pursuit of a monumental record is a perfect example of what many fans feel has become a warped game, or a warped statistical era. He embraces the role of the athlete that everyone loves to hate, likely because in many ways he hates himself.

My biggest problem with bonds is his apologists...there are many, many legitimate anti-heroes and misunderstood athletes out there to champion. Putting bonds in that category is an affront to those guys and to everyone else's intelligence. The guy is a fraud in every sense of the word, and every time he blames "the media" or "racism" to deflect any serious, thoughtful criticism of him he has a legion of fools enabling him and attacking the critics. It's just a shame all the way around.

[clintl]

My biggest problem with bonds is his apologists...there are many, many legitimate anti-heroes and misunderstood athletes out there to champion. Putting bonds in that category is an affront to those guys and to everyone else's intelligence. The guy is a fraud in every sense of the word, and every time he blames "the media" or "racism" to deflect any serious, thoughtful criticism of him he has a legion of fools enabling him and attacking the critics. It's just a shame all the way around.

I don't think there are very many who dispute the fact that Bonds deserves his reputation for having a surly personality. It's especially sad because he could have followed in the footsteps of Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, both class acts adored by Giants fans decades after their retirements, and both of whom maintain close ties with the Giants. It would have been much better if he had followed their example.

[dawgfan]

Alzado would disagree with you.
And Alzado's medical diagnosis qualifications were what exactly?

As for Guerrero, it only takes an elementary understanding of long-term steroid abuse to understand the kind of stress it puts on the heart and liver.
And it only takes an elementary understanding of long-term alcohol and narcotics abuse to understand the kinds of stresses they put on the heart and liver.

Look, I'm not naive about the negative effects anabolic steroid abuse can have on the body, but it doesn't help your argument any when you overstate the effects and offer sensationalized claims that aren't clearly supported by facts.

[MalcPow]

A buddy forwarded this to me, it seems silly, but I enjoyed the read:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797

EXCLUSIVE: Barry Bonds' Home Run Record Tainted by Mechanical Device



By Michael Witte

Published: August 06, 2007 10:45 AM

NEW YORK (Commentary) Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of the use of something that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the “armor” that he wears on his right elbow. Amid the press frenzy over Bonds’ unnatural bulk, the true role of the object on his right arm has simply gone unnoticed.

This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total.

Bonds tied Henry Aaron’s home run record of 755 on Saturday night and will go for the new standard this week back at home in San Francisco. As a student of baseball – and currently a mechanics consultant to a major league baseball team -- I believe I have insight into the Bonds "achievement." I have studied his swing countless times on video and examined the mechanical gear closely through photographs.

For years, sportswriters remarked that his massive "protective" gear – unequaled in all of baseball -- permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit by a pitch. Thus situated, Bonds can handle the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) unusually well. This is unfair advantage enough, but no longer controversial. However, it is only one of at least seven (largely unexplored) advantages conferred by the apparatus.

The other six:

1) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."

3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

Bonds has worn some sort of front arm protection since 1992. In '94, a one-piece forearm guard was replaced by a jointed, two piece elbow model. In ‘95 it got bigger and a small "cap" on the elbow was replaced by a "flap" that overlapped the upper piece and locked the two pieces together when the arm was elongated. In '96, the "apparatus" grew even larger and so did the "flap."

It seems to have remained relatively the same until -- interestingly— 2001, the year of his record 73 home runs, when an advanced model appeared made (apparently) of a new material. It had softer edges and a groove for the flap to slip into automatically at full arm elongation. More important, the upper half of the machine was sculpted to conform more comfortably to the contours of Bonds' upper arm. Since 2001, the apparatus seems to have remained relatively unchanged.

Several years back, baseball was rightfully scandalized by the revelation that Sammy Sosa had "corked" his bat. The advantages conferred by the Bonds "hitting machine," however, far exceed anything supplied by cork. Ultimately, it appears the Bonds "achievement” must be regarded as partly the product of “double duplicity" -- steroidal and mechanical.



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Michael Witte ([email protected]) is a well-known illustrator whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, Time, Sports Illustrated, The Wall Street Journal and dozens of other publications. The New Yorker recently wrote a piece about him and his study of mechanics. He appeared on network TV coverage of the 2003 World Series, providing cartoon sketches of some of the action.

[Crapshoot]

Carman - your "opinion" on the matter is just as worthless as anybody else's if you're rolling with "innocent until proven guilty," no?

So what it boils down to is, if we don't know specifically what he used, we cannot say that his activity was for certain legal. THG might not have been banned...but what about good old-fashioned anabolic steroids? There was no test for those as recently as 2001, when the activity is alleged to have occurred.

If he used federally restricted supplements without a prescription, he broke the law. Therefore, whatever MLB's enforcement structure is or was, the word "illegal" could have entirely different implications than those you're using.

That's all I'm saying. Be careful of throwing around the word "illegal" in a context that may not be proper.

FYI, in baseball context, do we really want to ignore the distinction between illegal and banned by baseball? If so, anyone drinking during prohibition was using illegal substances, as were the people using greenies (for what - 60-70 years now). You can't apply one standard now, while claiming that the history is purer than Caesar's wife.

[Atocep]

Hmm... Aaron put up 203 homers from the five year stretch of 1969-1973. That was the most productive span of his career and that began when he turned 35 years old. I think drawing a career arc to Bonds is fairly safe.

1954 - 1958 = 140 (age 20-24)
1959 - 1963 = 202 (age 25-29)
1964 - 1968 = 168 (age 30-34)
1969 - 1973 = 203 (age 35-39)


Very interesting use of numbers there. Aaron had a great year in '73 at age 39, however, he had a major dropoff after that to point where his '75 and '76 numbers (age 41 and 42 seasons) were far and away the worst of his career.

Bonds' age 42 season is better than his age 25 or 26 season.

The two are not comparable.

[clintl]

His age 42 stats are being severely distorted by the tendency for opposing pitchers to walk him the next three times he comes to the plate after a HR. If I could only have him for one year, and I had a choice between Bonds at 25 and Bonds at 42, I'd take Bonds at 25 without hesitation.

[Atocep]

His age 42 stats are being severely distorted by the tendency for opposing pitchers to walk him the next three times he comes to the plate after a HR. If I could only have him for one year, and I had a choice between Bonds at 25 and Bonds at 42, I'd take Bonds at 25 without hesitation.


Aaron and Bonds are still not comparable in the later stages of their career. Aaron posted OPS+ seasons near 100, while Bonds is still in the 170 range. Even without the walks he's slugging around .550 and would be looking at a 40+ homer season if pitchers weren't walking him so much.

[clintl]

I agree with part of that - Bonds is probably the best 43 year old player in baseball history. I'm just pointing out that there are some unique circumstances regarding the season Bonds is having that make it look statistically better (particularly the OPS+) than the level Bonds is actually playing at. Opposing managers and pitchers are still treating him at times like the Bonds of a few years ago, and he's not that player any more.

[Young Drachma]

Woo